Activism Change » Voluntary simplicity

THE PARTY'S OVER: Oil, War, and the Fate of Industrial Societies

admin — Mon, 24 Nov 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Thanks Mark for your intelligent response, making it unnecessary for us to post to make most of the same points. We would only add a few things, such as, massive use of Coal would be an environmental disaster, and even cleaner" coal would be a CO2 problem. Nuclear waste has been a disaster, unfunded superfunds, no one wants it, contamination lasts for millennia, and we haven’t even spoken about terrorism yet. Market forces are far too slow…by the time market signals begin to take more serious account, it’ll be too late. In fact, it’s already too late in the following sense: we already don’t have enough time to ramp up alternatives at a rate fast enough to make up for the oil sortfalls, and continue our high-energy lifestyle. What we do have enough time for is if we ramp up the alternatives and at the same time move to a lower energy mode. .. and by the way more local based, and more communitarian and more enjoyable and fulfilling lifestyle. I’m not talking about us all becomign farmers, I’m talking about you get your food locally, fresh, organic, from friendly small business folks you know, not GMO modified, chemicadlized food from 1000s of miles away that’s half stale by the time it reaches your supermarket and they use artificial means to keep the tomatoes red and the other veggies looking "fresh" without really being fresh Much more is here: http://www.PostCarbon.org and see "when markets fail:…" which is text as well as other video and audio offerings there… ED – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Richard Heinberg has written an outstanding book, The Party’s Over ..The world and the U.S. populations are projected to double in 50 and 70 years, respectively, and global oil supplies are projected to be mostly depleted in 50 years! [Worse, oil production will peak sometime between 2006 and 2015] I agree with Heinberg that society is headed for serious trouble in the near future." –David Pimentel, Ph.D., Professor, Department of Entomology, Systematics AND Ecology, Cornell University "The Party’s Over begins with a commanding review of world history, where past and current developments including war, empire, and population growth are interpreted as functions of cheap or increasingly scarce and expensive energy. The discussion of substitutes for fast-depleting fossil fuels, and the formidable impediments to making the transition that would allow industrial civilization to continue, are important to every investor and citizen."- Virginia Deane Abernethy, Ph.D., author of Population Politics http://www.museletter.com/partys-over.html Snip…. Pure nonsense. Fossil fuels are no where near running out and the biggest one of them all hasn’t even begun to be tapped yet. It’s true that oil production is on its downslope but given all of the problems oil creates including war, it’s probably a good thing that we divest ourselves of its use. The faster it runs out the better. "Fossil fuels are no where near running out" and "it’s true that oil production is on its downslope" would appear to contradictory statements. It isn’t that we are going to suddenly run out of oil tomorrow, or ten years from now. The problem is that demand is starting to exceed supply of oil, even when new resources are brought online. As prices rise, the global economy tips into recession, somewhat lowering demand, but soon thereafter the recession ends, demand picks up, and once again we see the inexorable rise in prices. We tilt back and forth these days between sudden sharp price increase and modest rollbacks. Yet the trend is that demand increases and capacity (supply) does not keep up. As we tip into a permanent shortage situation the ‘party’ the essentially free ride that the global economy has taken on what was considered an infinite supply of cheap energy will indeed be over. Global conflicts and economic dislocation are inevitable, and we are seeing that pattern right now. There are many alternatives to oil, wind solar and bio-mass even nuclear to name a few. These will never be fully developed until oil is not as readily available as it is today. That would be too late. The interim period is likely to make the events of the 30’s and 40’s look like a picnic. We are in the early days of that interim period. The oil wars have started. Our leaders have stuck their collective heads in the sands of saudi arabia and simply wished the problem away, when for 40 years they have known exactly what the future had in store. T The Washington NeoClowns can’t even get their clown shoes on right, and there is no wrong way to do that. == Mark Roddy "Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event like a new Pearl Harbor." — Project for a New American Century, — the neocon cabal’s blueprint for world empire. http://www.newamericancentury.org

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Richard Heinberg has written an outstanding book, The Party’s Over ..The world and the U.S. populations are projected to double in 50 and 70 years, respectively, and global oil supplies are projected to be mostly depleted in 50 years! [Worse, oil production will peak sometime between 2006 and 2015] I agree with Heinberg that society is headed for serious trouble in the near future." –David Pimentel, Ph.D., Professor, Department of Entomology, Systematics AND Ecology, Cornell University "The Party’s Over begins with a commanding review of world history, where past and current developments including war, empire, and population growth are interpreted as functions of cheap or increasingly scarce and expensive energy. The discussion of substitutes for fast-depleting fossil fuels, and the formidable impediments to making the transition that would allow industrial civilization to continue, are important to every investor and citizen."- Virginia Deane Abernethy, Ph.D., author of Population Politics http://www.museletter.com/partys-over.html Snip…. Pure nonsense. Fossil fuels are no where near running out and the biggest one of them all hasn’t even begun to be tapped yet. It’s true that oil production is on its downslope but given all of the problems oil creates including war, it’s probably a good thing that we divest ourselves of its use. The faster it runs out the better.

"Fossil fuels are no where near running out" and "it’s true that oil production is on its downslope" would appear to contradictory statements. It isn’t that we are going to suddenly run out of oil tomorrow, or ten years from now. The problem is that demand is starting to exceed supply of oil, even when new resources are brought online. As prices rise, the global economy tips into recession, somewhat lowering demand, but soon thereafter the recession ends, demand picks up, and once again we see the inexorable rise in prices. We tilt back and forth these days between sudden sharp price increase and modest rollbacks. Yet the trend is that demand increases and capacity (supply) does not keep up. As we tip into a permanent shortage situation the ‘party’ the essentially free ride that the global economy has taken on what was considered an infinite supply of cheap energy will indeed be over. Global conflicts and economic dislocation are inevitable, and we are seeing that pattern right now. There are many alternatives to oil, wind solar and bio-mass even nuclear to name a few. These will never be fully developed until oil is not as readily available as it is today.

That would be too late. The interim period is likely to make the events of the 30’s and 40’s look like a picnic. We are in the early days of that interim period. The oil wars have started. Our leaders have stuck their collective heads in the sands of saudi arabia and simply wished the problem away, when for 40 years they have known exactly what the future had in store. T The Washington NeoClowns can’t even get their clown shoes on right, and there is no wrong way to do that. == Mark Roddy "Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event like a new Pearl Harbor." — Project for a New American Century, — the neocon cabal’s blueprint for world empire. http://www.newamericancentury.org

Response:

Pure nonsense. Fossil fuels are no where near running out and the biggest one of them all hasn’t even begun to be tapped yet. It’s true that oil production is on its downslope but given all of the problems oil creates including war, it’s probably a good thing that we divest ourselves of its use. The faster it runs out the better. There are many alternatives to oil, wind solar and bio-mass even nuclear to name a few. These will never be fully developed until oil is not as readily available as it is today. In addition there is coal with the US harboring about one quarter of the worlds supply. Coal alone could fuel our society for a couple of hundred years. But, the big enchelada is not coal, solar, bio-mass, nuclear, or wind, its methane hydrates found abundantly in the ocean muds. There is more energy in these muds on the continental margins than all other fossil fuels combined. Development of this source will fuel mankind at the preset rate of energy use for hundreds of years. Clearly there are many alternatives to oil that will be developed as oil becomes more scarce. The idea that we are running out of scarce energy is preposterous because if only focuses on oil and not the many alternatives waiting in the wings. The development of the alternatives is a matter of simple economics. They would be developed much faster is the true cost of oil including war were acknowledged and factored in. Interestingly none of the alternatives require any involvement in the middle east or Arab world. That alone is worth the price of admission. Icon

Response:

"Richard Heinberg has written an outstanding book, The Party’s Over ..The world and the U.S. populations are projected to double in 50 and 70 years, respectively, and global oil supplies are projected to be mostly depleted in 50 years! [Worse, oil production will peak sometime between 2006 and 2015] I agree with Heinberg that society is headed for serious trouble in the near future." –David Pimentel, Ph.D., Professor, Department of Entomology, Systematics AND Ecology, Cornell University "The Party’s Over begins with a commanding review of world history, where past and current developments including war, empire, and population growth are interpreted as functions of cheap or increasingly scarce and expensive energy. The discussion of substitutes for fast-depleting fossil fuels, and the formidable impediments to making the transition that would allow industrial civilization to continue, are important to every investor and citizen."- Virginia Deane Abernethy, Ph.D., author of Population Politics http://www.museletter.com/partys-over.html Synopsis: When Mike Bowlin, Chairman of ARCO, said in 1999 that "We’ve embarked on the beginning of the last days of the age of oil," he was voicing a truth that many others in the petroleum industry knew but dared not utter. Over the past few years, evidence has mounted that global oil production is nearing its historic peak. Oil has been the cheapest and most convenient energy resource ever discovered by humans. During the past two centuries, people in industrial nations accustomed themselves to a regime in which more fossil-fuel energy was available each year, and the global population grew quickly to take advantage of this energy windfall. Industrial nations also came to rely on an economic system built on the assumption that growth is normal and necessary, and that it can go on forever. When oil production peaks, those assumptions will come crashing down. As we move from a historic interval of energy growth to one of energy decline, we are entering uncharted territory. It takes some effort to adjust one’s mental frame of reference to this new reality. Try the following thought experiment. Go to the center of a city and find a comfortable place to sit. Look around and ask yourself: Where and how is energy being used? What forms of energy are being consumed, and what work is that energy doing? Notice the details of buildings, cars, buses, streetlights, and so on; notice also the activities of the people around you. What kinds of occupations do these people have, and how do they use energy in their work? Try to follow some of the strands of the web of relationships between energy, jobs, water, food, heating, construction, goods distribution, transportation, and maintenance that together keep the city thriving. After you have spent at least 20 minutes appreciating energy’s role in the life of this city, imagine what the scene you are viewing would look like if there were 10 percent less energy available. What substitutions would be necessary? What choices would people make? What work would not get done? Now imagine the scene with 25 percent less energy available; with 50 percent less; with 75 percent less. Assuming that the peak in global oil production occurs in the period from 2006 to 2015 and that there is an average two percent decline in energy available to industrial societies each year afterward, in your imagination you will have taken a trip into the future, to perhaps the year 2050. But how can we be sure that oil will become less abundant? Petroleum geologists like Colin Campbell (formerly with Texaco and Amoco) point to simple facts like these: Oil discovery in the US peaked in the 1930s; oil production peaked roughly forty years later. Since 1970, the US has had to import more oil nearly every year in order to make up for its shortfall from domestic production. The oil business started in America in the late nineteenth century, and the US is the most-explored region on the planet: more oil wells have been drilled in the lower-48 US than in all other countries combined. Thus, America’s experience with oil will eventually be repeated elsewhere. Global Discovery of Oil Global discovery of oil peaked in the 1960s. Since production curves must eventually mirror discovery curves, global oil production will doubtless peak at some point in the foreseeable future. When, exactly? According to many informed estimates, the peak should occur around 2010, give or take a few years. When the global peak in oil production is reached, there will still be plenty of petroleum in the ground – as much as has been extracted up to the present, or roughly one trillion barrels. But every year from then on it will be difficult or impossible to pump as much as the year before. Clearly, we will need to find substitutes for oil. But an analysis of the current energy alternatives is not reassuring. Solar and wind are renewable, but we now get less than one percent of our national energy budget from them; rapid growth will be necessary if they are to replace even a significant fraction of the energy shortfall from post-peak oil. Nuclear power is dogged by the unsolved problem of radioactive waste disposal. Hydrogen is not an energy source at all, but an energy carrier: it takes more energy to produce a given quantity of hydrogen than the hydrogen itself will yield. Moreover, nearly all commercially produced hydrogen now comes from natural gas – whose production will peak only a few years after oil begins its historic decline. Unconventional petroleum resources – so-called "heavy oil," "oil sands," and "shale oil" – are plentiful but extremely costly to extract, a fact that no technical innovation is likely to change. The hard math of energy resource analysis yields an uncomfortable but unavoidable prospect: even if efforts are intensified now to switch to alternative energy sources, after the oil peak industrial nations will have less energy available to do useful work – including the manufacturing and transporting of goods, the growing of food, and the heating of homes. To be sure, we should be investing in alternatives and converting our industrial infrastructure to use them. If there is any solution to industrial societies’ approaching energy crises, renewables plus conservation will provide it. Yet in order to achieve a smooth transition from non-renewables to renewables, decades will be needed – and we do not have decades before the peaks in the extraction rates of oil and natural gas occur. Moreover, even in the best case, the transition will require the massive shifting of investment from other sectors of the economy (such as the military) toward energy research and conservation. And the available alternatives will likely be unable to support the kinds of transportation, food, and dwelling infrastructure we now have; thus the transition will entail an almost complete redesign of industrial societies. Global Energy Resources The likely economic consequences of the energy downturn are enormous. All human activities require energy – which physicists define as "the capacity to do work." With less energy available, less work can be done – unless the efficiency of the process of converting energy to work is raised at the same rate as energy availability declines. It will therefore be essential, over the next few decades, for all economic processes to be made more energy-efficient. However, efforts to improve efficiency are subject to diminishing returns, and so eventually a point will be reached where reduced energy availability will translate to reduced economic activity. Given the fact that our national economy is based on the assumption that economic activity must grow perpetually, the result is likely to be a recession with no bottom and no end. The consequences for global food production will be no less dire. Throughout the twentieth century, food production expanded dramatically in country after country, with virtually all of this growth attributable to energy inputs. Without fuel-fed tractors and petroleum-based fertilizers, pesticides, and herbicides, it is doubtful that crop yields can be maintained at current levels. The oil peak will also impact international relations. Resource conflicts are nothing new: pre-state societies often fought over agricultural land, fishing or hunting grounds, horses, cattle, waterways, and other resources. Most of the wars of the twentieth century were also fought over resources – in many cases, oil. But those wars took place during a period of expanding resource extraction; the coming decades of heightened competition for fading energy resources will likely see even more frequent and deadly conflicts. The US – as the world’s largest energy consumer, the center of global industrial empire, and the holder of the most powerful store of weaponry in world history – will play a pivotal role in shaping the geopolitics of the new century. To many observers, it appears that oil interests are already at the heart of the present administration’s geopolitical strategy. There is much that individuals and communities can do to prepare for the energy crunch. Anything that promotes individual self-reliance (gardening, energy conservation, and voluntary simplicity) will help. But the strategy of individualist survivalism will offer only temporary and uncertain refuge during the energy down-slope. True individual and family security will come only with community solidarity and interdependence. Living in a community that is weathering the downslope well will enhance personal chances of surviving and prospering far more than will individual efforts at stockpiling tools or growing food. Meanwhile, nations must adopt radical energy conservation measures, invest in renewable energy research, support sustainable local food systems instead of giant biotech agribusiness, adopt no-growth economic and population policies, and strive for international … read more »

Response:

How to define a real survivalist ?

admin — Sun, 17 Nov 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

It’s a balance of probabilities and costs thing. What are the probabilities and consequences of losing power, telephone or spiky haired mutants coming over the hill. Some things you just can’t do much about. (finding out that this year there is a 1km body in with the leonids, and it’s going to hit you in 1 min). Some things are almost pointless. (preparing comprehensive running water/ holy-water super-soakers and garlic minefields as a defence against the undead turning out to be real) And then there are personal choices. Is a 50% lower crime figure worth moving to a higher cost of living area. Is moving to the country worth slower access to emergency medicine, pizza, … Stating that you can do all of the above things by doing X, without impacting on the others is probably misguided. As to reducing reliance on others, what’s the point of life without others? —

Response:

Its fairly easy to identify the survivalists who are NOT serious about making their lives safer, more secure, more pleasant for their children,make themselves less reliant on others, at lower risk from terrorism or govt extremism, not solely reliant on utility companies for energy, supermarkets for food, public transport for mobility, the police for their safety etc etc etc. They can fill in the Line below I can not move out of the City .. We can all come up with many reasons not to get away from the high risk areas, citing monetary reasons, family commitments etc, but how many of those reasons REALLY stand us to analysis, How many of you are just looking for the eaasy option not to make a commitment to yourselves and your families?, How many of you are going to end up saying " We should have gotten out earlier" C,mon folks just about everyone of us who subscribe to survivalism are inteligent enough to see the shit is going to hit the fan sooner rather than later, lets see some postivity in ensuring our safety and security, Make that commitment now, not tommorow. Stay safe, and dont become a statistic Steve

Response:

Sounds like a good balance. For your further enjoyment, 61 End of the world predictions before 1990; http://www.religioustolerance.org/end_wrl2.htm

ROFL. Bernadette "No, what I mean is, the stock market has crashed, the global economy has collapsed, and the president is on the tube screaming ’sauve qui peut’. Now you don’t have the government to kick around anymore, what are you going to do?" After the obligatory explanation that "sauve qui peut" is French for "save what you can".

Hmm, Heinlein fan? The CO

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Its fairly easy to identify the survivalists who are NOT serious They can fill in the Line below I can not move out of the City C,mon folks just about everyone of us who subscribe to survivalism are inteligent enough to see the shit is going to hit the fan sooner rather than later Steve Hi Steve People have been dropping out of the system forever. You can adapt the life of a frontiersman, drop out, voluntary simplicity, vagabond or live in a cave if you like. I see a survivalist as a person who can live along with the system but is not dependent on it at the same time. As for TSHTF sooner or later. That warning of impending doom has been going on forever. I’ve been interested in the survivalism topic for over 25 years. Mixed into it was the back to the land movement of the 70’s. I’ve seen a lot and learned a little. This topic might be catagorized as threat assessment. Not that this is anything new. It seems to exist from doom and gloomers no matter what decade. Long ago I was digging through the basement of a used book store. I found a booklet that predicted the end of the world because the war (World War 1) battles plotted on a map had produced a huge sign of the cross over Italy. Other Biblical folks were predicting the end of the world before 1967 based on 2000 years of chrisitanity; Christ lived 33 years + the year 1967 = 2000 years. Remember this one? 1990-APR-23: Elizabeth Clare Prophet, leader of the Church Universal and Triumphant made a series of statements that many members believed indicated the start of nuclear war on this date. At least 2,000 followers traveled Montana to occupy CUT’s fallout shelters. Need more examples? In the 19teens it was poison gas, world war, airplanes dropping bombs, cities being wired for electricity. There were near riots in some cities as power companies put up power lines and people protested. In the 1920’s it was the roaring 20’s, moral decay and the evils of alcohol that led to prohibition. In the 1930’s the doom and gloomers had the great depression, dust bowl and organized crime that came from prohibition. In the 1940’s it was Hitler, Tojo, WW2, and then the Berlin crisis, moral decay. In the 1950’s it was the bomb, the red menace, television bringing immorality into everyone’s homes, moral decay. In the 1960’s the world was going to end from moral decay of rock and roll, drugs, over population, UFO’s, world communism, pesticides-Silent Spring, the Pill, global cooling, race riots/civil rights, moral decay. In the 1970’s it was pollution, drugs, hippies, pornography, gas crisis, inflation, sex education, antiwar protests, loss of the family farm, imported autos, generation gap, moral decay. In the 1980’s it was inflation, pollution, drugs, AIDS, failing education, high taxes, energy crisis, cherynobyl, drugs & moral decay. In the 1990’s it was drugs, pollution, out of control government, gang violence, govt corruption, cults, multiculturalism, violence against women, gentic engineering, collapse of the soviet union, pole shift, global warming, melting ice caps, antibiotic resistant diseases, condoms in school, brain cancer from cell phones, El Nino. global warming, drugs & moral decay. Somewhere in there were predictions of doom because too many planets were lined up in a row and disturbing the sun’s gravity. This brings us to the 2000’s that began under the cloud of Y2K doom predictions. Is this decade the "naught-ies"? We are bombarded with warnings about terrorism, out of control weather, govt control of weather, government conspiracies, loss of jobs, stock market crash and dot com disaster, business corruption like Enron or Worldcom, moral decay reflected in stories like Marth Stewart or gay days at Disneyland, hate crimes, terrorism, social security crisis, govt databases taking away our privacy, the press and news concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, moral decay in Raves – goth/punk/vampire chic, date rape drugs, , , and a whole lot of etceteras. A year ago it was flee the cities after 911. Six months ago it was anthrax that had gas masks, that were selling for under $20 for years, going for over $300 each on ebay. I am an educated, experienced survivalist. I stay informed not panicked. I have a plan to deal with living no matter what the situation. For now I will continue to work and go to college to add a nursing degree. Good skill for a survivalist to learn if something happens. Good career and pay if nothing happens. I could move out of the city at anytime. That is part of being a survivalist. I remain adaptable. For your further enjoyment, 61 End of the world predictions before 1990; http://www.religioustolerance.org/end_wrl2.htm Bernadette

Bravo!! This Message is guaranteed environmentally friendly Manufactured with 10% post consumer ASCII Meets all EPA regulations for clean air Using only naturally occuring fibers Use the Message with confidance. (Some settling may occure in transit.) (Best if Used before May 13, 2009)

Response:

Its fairly easy to identify the survivalists who are NOT serious They can fill in the Line below I can not move out of the City C,mon folks just about everyone of us who subscribe to survivalism are inteligent enough to see the shit is going to hit the fan sooner rather than later Steve

Hi Steve People have been dropping out of the system forever. You can adapt the life of a frontiersman, drop out, voluntary simplicity, vagabond or live in a cave if you like. I see a survivalist as a person who can live along with the system but is not dependent on it at the same time. As for TSHTF sooner or later. That warning of impending doom has been going on forever. I’ve been interested in the survivalism topic for over 25 years. Mixed into it was the back to the land movement of the 70’s. I’ve seen a lot and learned a little. This topic might be catagorized as threat assessment. Not that this is anything new. It seems to exist from doom and gloomers no matter what decade. Long ago I was digging through the basement of a used book store. I found a booklet that predicted the end of the world because the war (World War 1) battles plotted on a map had produced a huge sign of the cross over Italy. Other Biblical folks were predicting the end of the world before 1967 based on 2000 years of chrisitanity; Christ lived 33 years + the year 1967 = 2000 years. Remember this one? 1990-APR-23: Elizabeth Clare Prophet, leader of the Church Universal and Triumphant made a series of statements that many members believed indicated the start of nuclear war on this date. At least 2,000 followers traveled Montana to occupy CUT’s fallout shelters. Need more examples? In the 19teens it was poison gas, world war, airplanes dropping bombs, cities being wired for electricity. There were near riots in some cities as power companies put up power lines and people protested. In the 1920’s it was the roaring 20’s, moral decay and the evils of alcohol that led to prohibition. In the 1930’s the doom and gloomers had the great depression, dust bowl and organized crime that came from prohibition. In the 1940’s it was Hitler, Tojo, WW2, and then the Berlin crisis, moral decay. In the 1950’s it was the bomb, the red menace, television bringing immorality into everyone’s homes, moral decay. In the 1960’s the world was going to end from moral decay of rock and roll, drugs, over population, UFO’s, world communism, pesticides-Silent Spring, the Pill, global cooling, race riots/civil rights, moral decay. In the 1970’s it was pollution, drugs, hippies, pornography, gas crisis, inflation, sex education, antiwar protests, loss of the family farm, imported autos, generation gap, moral decay. In the 1980’s it was inflation, pollution, drugs, AIDS, failing education, high taxes, energy crisis, cherynobyl, drugs & moral decay. In the 1990’s it was drugs, pollution, out of control government, gang violence, govt corruption, cults, multiculturalism, violence against women, gentic engineering, collapse of the soviet union, pole shift, global warming, melting ice caps, antibiotic resistant diseases, condoms in school, brain cancer from cell phones, El Nino. global warming, drugs & moral decay. Somewhere in there were predictions of doom because too many planets were lined up in a row and disturbing the sun’s gravity. This brings us to the 2000’s that began under the cloud of Y2K doom predictions. Is this decade the "naught-ies"? We are bombarded with warnings about terrorism, out of control weather, govt control of weather, government conspiracies, loss of jobs, stock market crash and dot com disaster, business corruption like Enron or Worldcom, moral decay reflected in stories like Marth Stewart or gay days at Disneyland, hate crimes, terrorism, social security crisis, govt databases taking away our privacy, the press and news concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, moral decay in Raves – goth/punk/vampire chic, date rape drugs, , , and a whole lot of etceteras. A year ago it was flee the cities after 911. Six months ago it was anthrax that had gas masks, that were selling for under $20 for years, going for over $300 each on ebay. I am an educated, experienced survivalist. I stay informed not panicked. I have a plan to deal with living no matter what the situation. For now I will continue to work and go to college to add a nursing degree. Good skill for a survivalist to learn if something happens. Good career and pay if nothing happens. I could move out of the city at anytime. That is part of being a survivalist. I remain adaptable. For your further enjoyment, 61 End of the world predictions before 1990; http://www.religioustolerance.org/end_wrl2.htm Bernadette "No, what I mean is, the stock market has crashed, the global economy has collapsed, and the president is on the tube screaming ’sauve qui peut’. Now you don’t have the government to kick around anymore, what are you going to do?" After the obligatory explanation that "sauve qui peut" is French for "save what you can".

Response:

Anyone want to add to the list? ===unidyne=== "You may be a survivalist if…"

You look at your wife and say, "She’s not fat. She just carriers her survival supplies internally." You ever outbid an antique collector on ebay when it was an item you could actually use that didn’t require electricity. The license plate on your SUV says "BUG OUT". Any friend or neighbor ever said to you, "Well, now I know where to go if, , , ." Backing up your computer means you have a book. You think camouflage clothes make you look thinner. You choose a computer password containing numbers and letters by picking the name of a weapon; colt45, M16, AR15, P38 Your John Deere riding mower has a gun rack. Bernadette

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – .. We can all come up with many reasons not to get away from the high risk areas, citing monetary reasons, family commitments etc, but how many of those reasons REALLY stand us to analysis, How many of you are just looking for the eaasy option not to make a commitment to yourselves and your families?, How many of you are going to end up saying " We should have gotten out earlier" C,mon folks just about everyone of us who subscribe to survivalism are inteligent enough to see the shit is going to hit the fan sooner rather than later, lets see some postivity in ensuring our safety and security, Make that commitment now, not tommorow. Stay safe, and dont become a statistic Steve

I’ve read the other posts and for some reason, I keep thinking of a Jeff Foxworthy type of list. "You may be a survivalist if…" …you give a month’s worth of freeze-dried food as a housewarming present. …nothing in your house is blinking after a blackout. …you own your weight in silver rounds. …the food your serve at your kid’s high school graduation is the stash you bought when (s)he was in 5th grade. …you can recite the menus of MRE’s by memory. …your bug-out bag is bigger than your TV set. …all your portable radios either wind up or have solar panels. …"a day in the country" means restocking your retreat. …you’re on a first name basis with the local Mormons, and you’re not even LDS. …all your work clothes are khaki, camo, or olive drab. …your shortwave radio antennas take up most of your roof. …you refer to foreplay as "prepping the target". Anyone want to add to the list? ===unidyne===

Response:

That’s easy: Rotting teeth We only have sexual relations with blood relatives Males can only attain erection when holding a firearm We sport eleven toes, at least three of which are webbed to the others. In other words we are just ordinary trailer-trash americans. HTH

Response:

How about, The guys think your nuts at the office, because you open boxes with your pocketknife that you keep in your purse. They try brute force… When the lights go out during a meeting, you simply turn on the Mini-Mag lite you keep in your purse. Your purse looks surprisingly small to them….. Frugal Housewife

Response:

You not only think about replacing 21st century technology with 18th century technology, but have actually done so. This Message is guaranteed environmentally friendly Manufactured with 10% post consumer ASCII Meets all EPA regulations for clean air Using only naturally occuring fibers Use the Message with confidance. (Some settling may occure in transit.) (Best if Used before May 13, 2009)

Response:

The clerks at the local Hardware store ask *you* for advice. After the multinational company you worked for lays you (and 2000 others) off, you find you can make more money for less work from your "hobbies". You own more than 6 rolls of Duct Tape, even though you work in an office. Your response to most items on this list is "well, yes, of course!"

Response:

Path: newsmaster1.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsfeed2 .earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed.icl.net !newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!sm all.news.tele.dk!news.dizum.com!sewer-output!mail2news-x3!mail2news-x2!mail 2news Newsgroups: misc.survivalism,alt.autos.corvette,alt.survival Comments: This message probably did not originate at the above address. It was automatically remailed by one or more anonymous remailers. X-Remailer-Contact: Anonymous Mailer

Response:

Did anyone keep a copy of the results to that survey about a year ago? My copy vanished in my Norton Boot Virus fiasco.

Response:

Thanks for sharing your unique views with AAC. If you are a survivor I’d be better off dead !!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s easy: Rotting teeth We only have sexual relations with blood relatives Males can only attain erection when holding a firearm We sport eleven toes, at least three of which are webbed to the others. In other words we are just ordinary trailer-trash americans. HTH

Response:

Steve’s right Bernadette, your dead meat C ya Mitch

Its fairly easy to identify the survivalists who are NOT serious They can fill in the Line below I can not move out of the City

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – C,mon folks just about everyone of us who subscribe to survivalism are inteligent enough to see the shit is going to hit the fan sooner rather than later Steve Hi Steve People have been dropping out of the system forever. You can adapt the life of a frontiersman, drop out, voluntary simplicity, vagabond or live in a cave if you like. I see a survivalist as a person who can live along with the system but is not dependent on it at the same time. As for TSHTF sooner or later. That warning of impending doom has been going on forever. I’ve been interested in the survivalism topic for over 25 years. Mixed into it was the back to the land movement of the 70’s. I’ve seen a lot and learned a little. This topic might be catagorized as threat assessment. Not that this is anything new. It seems to exist from doom and gloomers no matter what decade. Long ago I was digging through the basement of a used book store. I found a booklet that predicted the end of the world because the war (World War 1) battles plotted on a map had produced a huge sign of the cross over Italy. Other Biblical folks were predicting the end of the world before 1967 based on 2000 years of chrisitanity; Christ lived 33 years + the year 1967 = 2000 years. Remember this one? 1990-APR-23: Elizabeth Clare Prophet, leader of the Church Universal and Triumphant made a series of statements that many members believed indicated the start of nuclear war on this date. At least 2,000 followers traveled Montana to occupy CUT’s fallout shelters. Need more examples? In the 19teens it was poison gas, world war, airplanes dropping bombs, cities being wired for electricity. There were near riots in some cities as power companies put up power lines and people protested. In the 1920’s it was the roaring 20’s, moral decay and the evils of alcohol that led to prohibition. In the 1930’s the doom and gloomers had the great depression, dust bowl and organized crime that came from prohibition. In the 1940’s it was Hitler, Tojo, WW2, and then the Berlin crisis, moral decay. In the 1950’s it was the bomb, the red menace, television bringing immorality into everyone’s homes, moral decay. In the 1960’s the world was going to end from moral decay of rock and roll, drugs, over population, UFO’s, world communism, pesticides-Silent Spring, the Pill, global cooling, race riots/civil rights, moral decay. In the 1970’s it was pollution, drugs, hippies, pornography, gas crisis, inflation, sex education, antiwar protests, loss of the family farm, imported autos, generation gap, moral decay. In the 1980’s it was inflation, pollution, drugs, AIDS, failing education, high taxes, energy crisis, cherynobyl, drugs & moral decay. In the 1990’s it was drugs, pollution, out of control government, gang violence, govt corruption, cults, multiculturalism, violence against women, gentic engineering, collapse of the soviet union, pole shift, global warming, melting ice caps, antibiotic resistant diseases, condoms in school, brain cancer from cell phones, El Nino. global warming, drugs & moral decay. Somewhere in there were predictions of doom because too many planets were lined up in a row and disturbing the sun’s gravity. This brings us to the 2000’s that began under the cloud of Y2K doom predictions. Is this decade the "naught-ies"? We are bombarded with warnings about terrorism, out of control weather, govt control of weather, government conspiracies, loss of jobs, stock market crash and dot com disaster, business corruption like Enron or Worldcom, moral decay reflected in stories like Marth Stewart or gay days at Disneyland, hate crimes, terrorism, social security crisis, govt databases taking away our privacy, the press and news concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, moral decay in Raves – goth/punk/vampire chic, date rape drugs, , , and a whole lot of etceteras. A year ago it was flee the cities after 911. Six months ago it was anthrax that had gas masks, that were selling for under $20 for years, going for over $300 each on ebay. I am an educated, experienced survivalist. I stay informed not panicked. I have a plan to deal with living no matter what the situation. For now I will continue to work and go to college to add a nursing degree. Good skill for a survivalist to learn if something happens. Good career and pay if nothing happens. I could move out of the city at anytime. That is part of being a survivalist. I remain adaptable. For your further enjoyment, 61 End of the world predictions before 1990; http://www.religioustolerance.org/end_wrl2.htm Bernadette "No, what I mean is, the stock market has crashed, the global economy has collapsed, and the president is on the tube screaming ’sauve qui peut’. Now you don’t have the government to kick around anymore, what are you going to do?" After the obligatory explanation that "sauve qui peut" is French for "save what you can".

Response:

You sound right on, but I hope you aren’t inviting the devil to test you. Wonder if you can rely on being smart, tough, practical, and flexible? Seems like something more is needed in a survival philosophy. What’s in the nurse’s survival manual about helping others who are not going to make it? Triage? Self-sacrifice? bookburn

I haven’t been "right on" since the 60’s. Come to think of it, I was kinda dorky back then. I don’t remember being right on after all. Like for example my friends were driving muscle cars like Mach 1 Mustangs and Camaros while my cars went from a Morris Minor a guy gave me for hauling it away, to a Ford pickup truck to a Corvair Spyder. I’d love to be able to rely on being age 19 in a TEOTWAWKI situation but that is not an option. So the older I get I balance out my age by being educated, skilled and hard working. I am not naturally violent. I have adapted by looking harmless so you will drop your guard and give my that opportunity to shoot you in the back when you are not looking. Age and treachery will usually win against youth and skill. A lot of people prepare by stockpiling stuff. I’ve prepared by having a lifestyle with some stuff along with the experience to use the stuff I have. I can improvise for the stuff I don’t have. That is a talent you can’t teach. How to see a way to bypass the impossible or find another way to do what needs to be done. As far as helping the doomed. That is an esoteric philosophical discussion. I like the old testiment Noah plan. You are under no opligation to do more than warn your neighbors and make preparations for protecting family members. Noah warned people for most of a thousand years. When the rain started the door to the ark was closed. It is human nature to see to the safety of your own family first even if you are the ruler of a nation. The US Army War College recognizes this as the final indicator of societal collapse in their declassified indicators of social collapse. (quote) The Department of Defense, for example, created a Master Instability Indicators List/Matrix to predict the threat of low-intensity conflict. Intended to be a single-source tool for the evaluation of low-intensity conflict for strategic, operational, and tactical military planners, it lists 547 indicators based primarily on intelligence sources. For example, the first indicator is "informants fail to pass accurate information," while the last is "families of sponsor [government] officials leave the country."[13] reference; 13. LIC Instability Indicators Study, Army-Air Force Center for Low Intensity Conflict, Langley Air Force Base, Va., June 1992, pp. X-1 to X-24. (end quote) I’d say that being smart, tough, practical, educated, skilled and adaptable definitely puts the odds in my favor. It doesn’t hurt to have a father with a 160 acre farm who has taken the time to prepare for his own children and grandchildren, , , just in case. Bernadette Why is it called "after dark" when it really is "after light"?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Steve’s right Bernadette, your dead meat C ya Mitch

I’m empirical and pragmatic. You’re theoretical and dogmatic. That does not make either of us right but it has left you opinionated. To paraphrase some of Murphy’s rules of war into Bernadettes rules of survival; For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism. If you can think clearly, know exactly what’s happening, and have total control of a situation, then it’s not survivalism. Survival does not determine who is right, TEOTWAWKI determines who is left. No approach to survival remains unchanged when it makes contact with the future. The trouble with field experience is you never get it until just after you need it. Anything you do can get you killed, including nothing. The tough part about posting on the internet is that the critics don’t know what they want, but they know for certain what they don’t want Being live meat just proves that were you smart enough to think of a plan, stupid enough to try it, and lucky enough to survive. The survival worth of a post is inversely proportional to the book learning quotient. A night in the woods is worth 10 in the library and 100 surfing the web. Never screw over another survivalist’s posts; you’ll never know when his information could save your life Your plan is only better than another survivalists if he dies first. When TEOTWAWKI happens, there is no way to know who is still around afterwards to see who was right. Never underestimate the ability of reality to foul things up. "Live" and "Convinced their way is the only right way" are mutually exclusive terms in the long run. TEOTWAWKI has nothing to do with opinions There is only one rule in survival: When you continue to live, you get to make up the rules. There is no such thing as planning your survival — only situations where you win or lose. All the preparation in the world is not a guarantee. It simply changes the odds in your favor. Nobody cares what you did yesterday or what you are going to do tomorrow. What is important is what you are doing — NOW — to solve our problem. Telling anyone else they are wrong without explaining why solves nothing. The more you worry about how bad the world is getting, the less time it takes it to move from condition green to red The mark of a truly superior survivalist is the use of his superior judgment to avoid situations requiring the use of his superior skill Reality always has the advantage. Group survival; In a survival situation you need to be well spoken, clear, properly dressed, well equiped, confident. Even if you are you wont be the one making the decisions. In a movie a single survivalist is an unstoppable semi-immortal and mysterious killing machine. As their number increases the survivalist becomes more of a bumbling fumbling idiot. Also applies to martial artists, thugs, mobsters, gangs and superheroes. Bernadette

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve’s right Bernadette, your dead meat C ya Mitch I’m empirical and pragmatic. You’re theoretical and dogmatic. That does not make either of us right but it has left you opinionated. To paraphrase some of Murphy’s rules of war into Bernadettes rules of survival; For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism. If you can think clearly, know exactly what’s happening, and have total control of a situation, then it’s not survivalism. Survival does not determine who is right, TEOTWAWKI determines who is left. No approach to survival remains unchanged when it makes contact with the future. The trouble with field experience is you never get it until just after you need it. Anything you do can get you killed, including nothing. The tough part about posting on the internet is that the critics don’t know what they want, but they know for certain what they don’t want Being live meat just proves that were you smart enough to think of a plan, stupid enough to try it, and lucky enough to survive. The survival worth of a post is inversely proportional to the book learning quotient. A night in the woods is worth 10 in the library and 100 surfing the web. Never screw over another survivalist’s posts; you’ll never know when his information could save your life Your plan is only better than another survivalists if he dies first. When TEOTWAWKI happens, there is no way to know who is still around afterwards to see who was right. Never underestimate the ability of reality to foul things up. "Live" and "Convinced their way is the only right way" are mutually exclusive terms in the long run. TEOTWAWKI has nothing to do with opinions There is only one rule in survival: When you continue to live, you get to make up the rules. There is no such thing as planning your survival — only situations where you win or lose. All the preparation in the world is not a guarantee. It simply changes the odds in your favor. Nobody cares what you did yesterday or what you are going to do tomorrow. What is important is what you are doing — NOW — to solve our problem. Telling anyone else they are wrong without explaining why solves nothing. The more you worry about how bad the world is getting, the less time it takes it to move from condition green to red The mark of a truly superior survivalist is the use of his superior judgment to avoid situations requiring the use of his superior skill Reality always has the advantage. Group survival; In a survival situation you need to be well spoken, clear, properly dressed, well equiped, confident. Even if you are you wont be the one making the decisions. In a movie a single survivalist is an unstoppable semi-immortal and mysterious killing machine. As their number increases the survivalist becomes more of a bumbling fumbling idiot. Also applies to martial artists, thugs, mobsters, gangs and superheroes. Bernadette

Bravo!! Brilliant and dead nuts on the money. Gunner "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud, "General Introduction to Psychoanlysis", 1910

Response:

Robin is going to be the death of me.

admin — Thu, 10 May 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

That is sheer madness my dear…sheer madness I swear it! R OF course, I love Martha too……

actually in charge of my life. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ~Judith Knowlton

Response:

Warning the mail carrier NOT to deliver packages with anything remotely sounding like this box! Telling him I will MS HIS ASS if he does. Did you get the damn box yet? R

Robin http://www.geocities.com/reinventingrobin I need to take an emotional breath, step back and remind myself who’s actually in charge of my life. ~Judith Knowlton

Response:

That is sheer madness my dear…sheer madness I swear it! R OF course, I love Martha too……

Robin http://www.geocities.com/reinventingrobin I need to take an emotional breath, step back and remind myself who’s actually in charge of my life. ~Judith Knowlton

Response:

Why I gotta take the blame for it all? Dot did it…she sent me over the edge to Flyland! R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is the absolutely first time since my transplant, actually since 1997, I have looked under my couch..I found my boat shoes(no, I don’t do boats..not recently anyway), the Sega Genesis and chess set. All of my nursing journals are on the way to the recycle factory to become wallpaper or cards and I have gutted and cleaned my ENTIRE living room…I found shit I never knew I had. I can’t breathe and I have lost ten pounds in sweat. I decluttered stuff that is just dust collecting and have decided the minimalist look is much more soothing on the jangled nerves residing in my body. Robin is all to blame. So go ahead and point finger, snicker at her and tell her she is a bad influence on me. Actually, she is better than ativan. ;o) I have never felt so revved in a good way. xo thanks Robin, you flygirl. — TC3 Before enlightenment, carry the water, till the soil. After enlightenment, carry the water, till the soil. Zen Proverb

Response:

Jeez, Cheryl, you should have an Anxiety Sufferers’ yard sale with all those meds you found!!!

LOL! The Princess Di stuff may be collectible. For the time being, try to put individual items in Ziploc baggies, and then store everything flat in a covered carton.

Hi Cheryl, I have practically every book, mag etc on Princess Diana. And I’m keeping all of it. I was a great fan of hers too. Don’t throw anything away! If you don’t want it, I’ll take it or buy it! xoxo, Steph

Response:

I will pay the shipping on the sewing machine…I plan (you know what that means) to learn to sew and need one desperately…we’ll chat on that later R

Oh Lord! I can just see this

Response:

Steph, I had them all(Di stuff) out yesterday and was forewarned by my Diva that if I got rid of them she would tar and feather me. LOLOL but if I ever do? I will give you a holler. I have one wonderful (huge) book on her by the her favorite photographer, of course I paid a million beans at the time of her death for it but it is on the sale tables now for twenty beans….I sat and looked at it the other night, I am not sure why I love her so much, I think she is just beautiful…not the sharpest tool in the box but she was something! OF course, I love Martha too……

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeez, Cheryl, you should have an Anxiety Sufferers’ yard sale with all those meds you found!!! LOL! The Princess Di stuff may be collectible. For the time being, try to put individual items in Ziploc baggies, and then store everything flat in a covered carton. Really? I have every magazine from when she died and after.. a lot of special ones that were out and one book of her wedding that came out that year…tons of stuff..I didn’t realize they would be collectibles. (can you tell I was a fan?) Hi Cheryl, I have practically every book, mag etc on Princess Diana. And I’m keeping all of it. I was a great fan of hers too. Don’t throw anything away! If you don’t want it, I’ll take it or buy it! xoxo, Steph

Response:

Cheryl, I know when

people come to my house they think "God she doesn’t know how to decorate" – but

the trust is I hate to clean so the less knick knacks and odds and ends the

better and less dusting. I only buy bookcases or shelvng with doors on them…

Salvation Army loves me – I keep nothing… Glad you are getting so much accomplished!!! smiles, elise

Elise, are you into the Voluntary Simplicity movement, or have you been reading Don Aslett’s decluttering books? : ) I would love to live that way, but my husband wants the amenities. I was never so happy as when I lived by myself in a little studio apartment. I had everything in a little space and a nice garden to look out on, and that was all I needed. Love, Dot

Response:

I will pay the shipping on the sewing machine…I plan (you know what that means) to learn to sew and need one desperately…we’ll chat on that later R

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — TC3 Before enlightenment, carry the water, till the soil. After enlightenment, carry the water, till the soil. Zen Proverb LOL, Cheryl! :-D I think Robin and the Flygirls (sounds like a hot girl band) have started a great trend. Well I can play the guitar so that is a start! She is an inspiration as are the others! It definitely reduces stress when you reduce clutter. I have done a bit of that, and have tons more to do. (Some of it involves selling things on eBay, and I’m doing that only a bit at a time, taking breaks like right now.) I have a few things I am perplexed what to do with, I have a TON of books on Princess Di and all the mags when she died, I have many older books of her too(photo books). What the hell do you do with that stuff? I also have a brand new sewing machine… I am thinking of selling it, it was used ONCE…so it is in perfect shape…I think it would be insane to say I will ever be that crafty…give me a glue gun instead! I learned a big lesson when I had to clean out my parents’ house before closing it this past fall and winter. GET RID OF STUFF NOW so someone else won’t have to deal with three drawers full of faded paper cocktail napkins bought on sale, file cabinets full of income tax records going back to 1948 (I kid you not), basement cupboards crammed with expired canned foods and chipped china plates, etc. (Not that any of *us* from ASAP would have such things in our houses, neatniks that we are — ha ha!) OH my God, my mother cleaned out Frank’s cellar(with help of my brother and wife) and the things they had to heave was horrible…..and her too, she had a four bedroom house, and the stuff you keep is just crazy…I still have the napkins left over from my wedding! LOL I have all my artwork I have done since jr high..so much stuff and that is part of why I am on this kick, I have to get my life organized on the outside as much as the inside, I have built walls with stuff. Stuff, George Carlin says, Why is everyone else’s stuff shit and your shit is stuff? or something like that~! LOL His whole thing on stuff is so funny. Keep digging; who knows what else you’ll find! What I would LOVE to find is the bracelet my MIL gave me, she bought it in Israel and I cannot find it and it has always left a pit in my stomach, I loved that bracelet..I do hope to find a bottle of extra ativan I know I stashed somewhere.. I already found two more bottles of xanax, one bottle and twenty samples of Prozac, samples of Paxil and a bottle of Welbuterin. Life is good…LOL xoox xxxooo Anne —

Response:

All it takes is a "Just do it attitude". About 5 years ago my hubby and I threw out all of the cards we had ever bought each other (from the time we met clear through then)…gosh when I think of the $ in cards and postage – there was a small fortune there, but I know the sentiment was not valued in $$$… Now, we opt for the $$$$ smiles, elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would love to spend some time with you so I can get into this minimalist thinking.LOL I have always been a pack rat, I have so much stuff from childhood and I am soooooo ready to say G’bye

Response:

– TC3 Before enlightenment, carry the water, till the soil. After enlightenment, carry the water, till the soil. Zen Proverb

Jeez, Cheryl, you should have an Anxiety Sufferers’ yard sale with all those meds you found!!!

I found more, Prilosec(from my dad, he gives me bottles of it, and HE needs it!) three bottles of blood pressure meds and one bottle of Synthroid…I even found an old bottle of codiene…LOL The Princess Di stuff may be collectible. For the time being, try to put individual items in Ziploc baggies, and then store everything flat in a covered carton.

Really? I have every magazine from when she died and after.. a lot of special ones that were out and one book of her wedding that came out that year…tons of stuff..I didn’t realize they would be collectibles. (can you tell I was a fan?) Search on eBay for items exactly like your Di stuff, one by one, and get an idea what they’re going for. (Use Search from the top eBay menu, then select "completed auctions" so you can see final prices rather than current bids.)

Thanks! I will check this out….I really don’t know if I want to get rid of them but I have no place to store them either… I have these first edition Nancy Drew in prime condition… once I looked them up and they were worth a lot of beans…. Then put an ad in your local paper to sell the stuff. Don’t expect to get top dollar; usually the people buying things from classifieds are the middlemen, not the actual collectors, so you have to adjust your price down a bit. Perhaps there is a newsgroup or listserve for Princess Di fans? Maybe you could advertise there.

I think there is! Jess sells antiques on eBay and may have more advice for you. The sewing machine: Call the YMCA or a social-service agency or community center in a low-income area — they might be delighted to have it for skills classes or hobbyists, if you want to make a donation (tax-deductible). Maybe an elderly center too. There’s always Goodwill or the Salv. Army. Or if you want to sell it: classified ad.

I feel so bad about this sewing machine….I was hell bent on getting lessons from my aunt who is a very busy lady and I was too anxious to get the free lessons at the store it came from(I got it in 92) it is a nice machine…at the time it was around 400 beans but I am not sure how outdated it is, but it IS new. It is just collecting dust… I frequently give away some of our SHIT to less fortunate people who are glad to have STUFF to make their lives easier. :-)

All of her toys, our clothes and books go to the needy families in her school..the only things that go in the garbage are unusable/recycle stuff….we even have a sega not in use..(so wasteful we were!~) I also donate much of her better toys that are learning aids to the school, they adapt them for other kids..this was funny, I took a huge bag of toys in and they said Christa will now play with them(she hated them at home) LOL When she got home today and saw my clean and organized living room She SCREAMED and cried!!! She is still mad her toys are in new baskets and stuff..LOL I hope you find your bracelet, Cheryl. It’s terrible to lose something special and important like that. This sounds ridiculous, but a prayer to St. Anthony has worked near-miracles for me with lost objects. ("St. Anthony, St. Anthony, come around, something is lost that must be found." then ask for the return of whatever it is.) :-)

You are the best Anne, I love you dearly! xo Thank you!!!!! love Cheryl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – xo Anne —

Response:

Jeez, Cheryl, you should have an Anxiety Sufferers’ yard sale with all those meds you found!!! The Princess Di stuff may be collectible. For the time being, try to put individual items in Ziploc baggies, and then store everything flat in a covered carton. Search on eBay for items exactly like your Di stuff, one by one, and get an idea what they’re going for. (Use Search from the top eBay menu, then select "completed auctions" so you can see final prices rather than current bids.) Then put an ad in your local paper to sell the stuff. Don’t expect to get top dollar; usually the people buying things from classifieds are the middlemen, not the actual collectors, so you have to adjust your price down a bit. Perhaps there is a newsgroup or listserve for Princess Di fans? Maybe you could advertise there. Jess sells antiques on eBay and may have more advice for you. The sewing machine: Call the YMCA or a social-service agency or community center in a low-income area — they might be delighted to have it for skills classes or hobbyists, if you want to make a donation (tax-deductible). Maybe an elderly center too. There’s always Goodwill or the Salv. Army. Or if you want to sell it: classified ad. I frequently give away some of our SHIT to less fortunate people who are glad to have STUFF to make their lives easier. :-) I hope you find your bracelet, Cheryl. It’s terrible to lose something special and important like that. This sounds ridiculous, but a prayer to St. Anthony has worked near-miracles for me with lost objects. ("St. Anthony, St. Anthony, come around, something is lost that must be found." then ask for the return of whatever it is.) :-) xo Anne —

Response:

I cannot, say enough how true the words are the Anne speaks. Josh, his mom, stepfather, brother and I cleaned out Josh’s gram’s condo this fall and winter. She saved everything some treasure and a whole lot of trash. There were bank books dating back to 1930 in her desk, deposit receipts from when her husband sold insurance in the 50’s, 37 coffee cans full of nails in the basement, outdated clothes, and most anything else one can think of, it was organised clutter, but clutter none the less. Still working on decluttering my own home, but it will happen. Jess – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I learned a big lesson when I had to clean out my parents’ house before closing it this past fall and winter. GET RID OF STUFF NOW so someone else won’t have to deal with three drawers full of faded paper cocktail napkins bought on sale, file cabinets full of income tax records going back to 1948 (I kid you not), basement cupboards crammed with expired canned foods and chipped china plates, etc. (Not that any of *us* from ASAP would have such things in our houses, neatniks that we are — ha ha!) Keep digging; who knows what else you’ll find! xxxooo Anne —

There are no black cats, just cat shaped holes in the universe.

Response:

Frank(my stepfather) had oodles of pennies… everywhere!!!! What a job that is huh? It will happen Jess, if I can do it after four years you can too!!!! xo — TC3 Before enlightenment, carry the water, till the soil. After enlightenment, carry the water, till the soil. Zen Proverb

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I cannot, say enough how true the words are the Anne speaks. Josh, his mom, stepfather, brother and I cleaned out Josh’s gram’s condo this fall and winter. She saved everything some treasure and a whole lot of trash. There were bank books dating back to 1930 in her desk, deposit receipts from when her husband sold insurance in the 50’s, 37 coffee cans full of nails in the basement, outdated clothes, and most anything else one can think of, it was organised clutter, but clutter none the less. Still working on decluttering my own home, but it will happen. Jess I learned a big lesson when I had to clean out my parents’ house before closing it this past fall and winter. GET RID OF STUFF NOW so someone else won’t have to deal with three drawers full of faded paper cocktail napkins bought on sale, file cabinets full of income tax records going back to 1948 (I kid you not), basement cupboards crammed with expired canned foods and chipped china plates, etc. (Not that any of *us* from ASAP would have such things in our houses, neatniks that we are — ha ha!) Keep digging; who knows what else you’ll find! xxxooo Anne — There are no black cats, just cat shaped holes in the universe.

Response:

– TC3 Before enlightenment, carry the water, till the soil. After enlightenment, carry the water, till the soil. Zen Proverb

LOL, Cheryl! :-D I think Robin and the Flygirls (sounds like a hot girl band) have started a great trend.

Well I can play the guitar so that is a start! She is an inspiration as are the others! It definitely reduces stress when you reduce clutter. I have done a bit of that, and have tons more to do. (Some of it involves selling things on eBay, and I’m doing that only a bit at a time, taking breaks like right now.)

I have a few things I am perplexed what to do with, I have a TON of books on Princess Di and all the mags when she died, I have many older books of her too(photo books). What the hell do you do with that stuff? I also have a brand new sewing machine… I am thinking of selling it, it was used ONCE…so it is in perfect shape…I think it would be insane to say I will ever be that crafty…give me a glue gun instead! I learned a big lesson when I had to clean out my parents’ house before closing it this past fall and winter. GET RID OF STUFF NOW so someone else won’t have to deal with three drawers full of faded paper cocktail napkins bought on sale, file cabinets full of income tax records going back to 1948 (I kid you not), basement cupboards crammed with expired canned foods and chipped china plates, etc. (Not that any of *us* from ASAP would have such things in our houses, neatniks that we are — ha ha!)

OH my God, my mother cleaned out Frank’s cellar(with help of my brother and wife) and the things they had to heave was horrible…..and her too, she had a four bedroom house, and the stuff you keep is just crazy…I still have the napkins left over from my wedding! LOL I have all my artwork I have done since jr high..so much stuff and that is part of why I am on this kick, I have to get my life organized on the outside as much as the inside, I have built walls with stuff. Stuff, George Carlin says, Why is everyone else’s stuff shit and your shit is stuff? or something like that~! LOL His whole thing on stuff is so funny. Keep digging; who knows what else you’ll find!

What I would LOVE to find is the bracelet my MIL gave me, she bought it in Israel and I cannot find it and it has always left a pit in my stomach, I loved that bracelet..I do hope to find a bottle of extra ativan I know I stashed somewhere.. I already found two more bottles of xanax, one bottle and twenty samples of Prozac, samples of Paxil and a bottle of Welbuterin. Life is good…LOL xoox – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – xxxooo Anne —

Response:

I would love to spend some time with you so I can get into this minimalist thinking.LOL I have always been a pack rat, I have so much stuff from childhood and I am soooooo ready to say G’bye

Response:

LOL, Cheryl! :-D I think Robin and the Flygirls (sounds like a hot girl band) have started a great trend. It definitely reduces stress when you reduce clutter. I have done a bit of that, and have tons more to do. (Some of it involves selling things on eBay, and I’m doing that only a bit at a time, taking breaks like right now.) I learned a big lesson when I had to clean out my parents’ house before closing it this past fall and winter. GET RID OF STUFF NOW so someone else won’t have to deal with three drawers full of faded paper cocktail napkins bought on sale, file cabinets full of income tax records going back to 1948 (I kid you not), basement cupboards crammed with expired canned foods and chipped china plates, etc. (Not that any of *us* from ASAP would have such things in our houses, neatniks that we are — ha ha!) Keep digging; who knows what else you’ll find! xxxooo Anne —

Response:

Cheryl, I know when people come to my house they think "God she doesn’t know how to decorate" – but the trust is I hate to clean so the less knick knacks and odds and ends the better and less dusting. I only buy bookcases or shelvng with doors on them… Salvation Army loves me – I keep nothing… Glad you are getting so much accomplished!!! smiles, elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is the absolutely first time since my transplant, actually since 1997, I have looked under my couch..I found my boat shoes(no, I don’t do boats..not recently anyway), the Sega Genesis and chess set. All of my nursing journals are on the way to the recycle factory to become wallpaper or cards and I have gutted and cleaned my ENTIRE living room…I found shit I never knew I had. I can’t breathe and I have lost ten pounds in sweat. I decluttered stuff that is just dust collecting and have decided the minimalist look is much more soothing on the jangled nerves residing in my body. Robin is all to blame. So go ahead and point finger, snicker at her and tell her she is a bad influence on me. Actually, she is better than ativan. ;o) I have never felt so revved in a good way. xo thanks Robin, you flygirl. — TC3 Before enlightenment, carry the water, till the soil. After enlightenment, carry the water, till the soil. Zen Proverb

Response:

This is the absolutely first time since my transplant, actually since 1997, I have looked under my couch..I found my boat shoes(no, I don’t do boats..not recently anyway), the Sega Genesis and chess set. All of my nursing journals are on the way to the recycle factory to become wallpaper or cards and I have gutted and cleaned my ENTIRE living room…I found shit I never knew I had. I can’t breathe and I have lost ten pounds in sweat. I decluttered stuff that is just dust collecting and have decided the minimalist look is much more soothing on the jangled nerves residing in my body. Robin is all to blame. So go ahead and point finger, snicker at her and tell her she is a bad influence on me. Actually, she is better than ativan. ;o) I have never felt so revved in a good way. xo thanks Robin, you flygirl. — TC3 Before enlightenment, carry the water, till the soil. After enlightenment, carry the water, till the soil. Zen Proverb

Response:

How to deal with financial woes!

admin — Mon, 05 Feb 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

After reading many many posts on how most of us struggle with financial issues, I am wondering how everyone deals with these issues!

Er, um, deal with the issues, more like the issues deal with me, LOL. My rules in the trenches: Voluntary simplicity. "He whose desires are the simplest, that man is the richest" or something like that. Never go into debt for anything but a mortgage. Can I do without it? Then I usually do. Unless it’s chocolate. -g- Work hard when you can, spend easy when you can’t. Never stop learning, it might just make you some money some day when you most need it, or save you some money when you can least afford to spend it. And it keeps life from getting boring. Liz G.

Response:

Geez!!! Really sorry to hear that someone took your cane!!! Hope by some small miracle, you can get it back! Donna G

Response:

I thought of a couple more.. A 20 year old car can ride just as comfortably and be just as reliable as a new one. And it’s a whole hell of a lot cheaper and easier to fix if something does break on it. You’d be surprised how many things you can get for free if you start looking, without having to cheat, steal, beg or otherwise compromise your principles. Our modern society is terribly wasteful. Stress…what, me, worry? -g- Stress carries it’s own costs. I try to avoid it. When I can’t avoid it, I try to put it out of my mind and just do what I can to make my situation better. This is the hardest one. Set aside a time to worry, get it over with, then do something creative to distract yourself. Liz G.

Response:

I wholeheartedly agree, DT! We went to Family Financial Freedom Foundation. It was hell at first, because of a series of events that shouldn’t have happened (I’ll spare the details) but we’ve taken our debt from over $25,000 to just under $10,000 in 3 years. If you want to clean up your credit and get a grip on your finances, this is the way to do it, BUT!!! you have to CONTROL your spending and avoid your normal money habits. Totally re-vamping the way you look at money, spend money, budget and make money, etc is important. You can’t continue on your regular path after giving your credit "challenge" to the CCC. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Credit Counseling Centers are super – if you get the right one. There are two of which I have personal knowledge. One was when we were still in the military – Consumer Credit Counseling Service. The other is one we deal with now – Harbour Credit Counseling Service (1-800-887-2389). Of the two, we FAR prefer Harbour. With CCCS, they made us feel like absolute failures, taking away our credit cards, requiring us to pay by U.S. postal money orders, talking down to us, etc. It was humiliating! Harbour is so much better!!! They will take on one or all of your creditors (we started with them with just one creditor who was being a total butthead about waiting just one month for regular payments). We now have turned over almost all of our creditors to them. I have never had a face to face meeting with these people, yet they call me from time to time to make sure I am not stressing over bills and send us a statement once a month showing us how much they paid each creditor, etc. We give them only $15 a month to manage our debt repayment program. (You can find cheaper or use your state’s for free. CCCS is the Maryland one.) You do it all over the phone or via snail mail. If anyone is interested in using their services, you can find them at: Harbour Credit Counseling Services, Inc. 397 Little Neck Road Bldg 3400, Suite 108 Virginia Beach, VA 23452 or call them at 1-800-887-2389 DeeTee

Response:

After reading many many posts on how most of us struggle with financial issues, I am wondering how everyone deals with these issues! Sometimes the financial issues get so overwhelming that you just can’t stand it!!! I have read some posts where people have to make decisions between treatments, medications, food, and a roof over thier head!!! Pretty scary stuff in my booklet!!! Has anyone ever had to file for bankruptcy? If so, was it worth it? Would you do it again? If you never have, do you know of someone who has filed for bankruptcy? What are the costs involved? Has anyone ever been to financial counseling? Did it help? Was it worth it? Would you do it again? How much does it cost? What are the ways that you all deal with the stress of finances??? Not trying to be nosey, just trying to help someone else who is literally at the end of thier rope!!! I know everyone and every situation is different, but just trying to get some ideas of what may be the best way to start with this friend!!! Thanks in advance for anything you might be willing to share!!! Donna G

Response:

Fortunately, I usually win fight wth insur companies so far. Yet the endless papework, the trips to the copy store, etc. are so wearing. How in the world do really older, sicker people ever prevail??? Or is that what the insur company is counting on? It’s bad enuf just having this damn disease without the world conspiring against us!!! And someone "lifted" my cane from the shopping cart last week!!! Did they think I just carried it for looks??? Oh, yeah!

Response:

Credit Counseling Centers are super – if you get the right one. There are two of which I have personal knowledge. One was when we were still in the military – Consumer Credit Counseling Service. The other is one we deal with now – Harbour Credit Counseling Service (1-800-887-2389). Of the two, we FAR prefer Harbour. With CCCS, they made us feel like absolute failures, taking away our credit cards, requiring us to pay by U.S. postal money orders, talking down to us, etc. It was humiliating! Harbour is so much better!!! They will take on one or all of your creditors (we started with them with just one creditor who was being a total butthead about waiting just one month for regular payments). We now have turned over almost all of our creditors to them. I have never had a face to face meeting with these people, yet they call me from time to time to make sure I am not stressing over bills and send us a statement once a month showing us how much they paid each creditor, etc. We give them only $15 a month to manage our debt repayment program. (You can find cheaper or use your state’s for free. CCCS is the Maryland one.) You do it all over the phone or via snail mail. If anyone is interested in using their services, you can find them at: Harbour Credit Counseling Services, Inc. 397 Little Neck Road Bldg 3400, Suite 108 Virginia Beach, VA 23452 or call them at 1-800-887-2389 DeeTee

Response:

We went to financial counselling to see if we could tweak anything else when spouse-thingy was going through the Canadian recession job-losses in the 80s. They reassured us and were able to get the Visa to accept only interest payments for a few months (the bank did this, too). But that was a temporary situation. Long term. they might get creditors to accept lower payments and give advice on the benefits/drawbacks of declaring bankruptcy. Don’t think it hurts to know your options but the final decisions are still yours at this point. I have a book called the tightwad gazette and have borrowed some library books about living on nothing which were full of ideas. HTH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After reading many many posts on how most of us struggle with financial issues, I am wondering how everyone deals with these issues! Sometimes the financial issues get so overwhelming that you just can’t stand it!!! I have read some posts where people have to make decisions between treatments, medications, food, and a roof over thier head!!! Pretty scary stuff in my booklet!!! Has anyone ever had to file for bankruptcy? If so, was it worth it? Would you do it again? If you never have, do you know of someone who has filed for bankruptcy? What are the costs involved? Has anyone ever been to financial counseling? Did it help? Was it worth it? Would you do it again? How much does it cost? What are the ways that you all deal with the stress of finances??? Not trying to be nosey, just trying to help someone else who is literally at the end of thier rope!!! I know everyone and every situation is different, but just trying to get some ideas of what may be the best way to start with this friend!!! Thanks in advance for anything you might be willing to share!!! Donna G

– … My mind wanders, but my body is too tired to follow Get your free anti-spam service at http://www.brightmail.com

Response:

CCCS was the one I went to on Friday. My experience with them was great. The National Foundation for Credit Counseling website can pont you to any US credit counseling center that is a member. There is a link at the bottom of the main page to find one in your area. Basically, The woman there was sooo helpful for me. She let me know which creditors could wait, which needed attention, etc, helped me make a budget and come up with ideas on how to get things accomplished. She made me feel a whooole lot better, showing me that I really was on track and not all that badly in debt ($3k regular debt, $24k student loans is NOT bad compared to most people she said) I had been feleing like it was out of control. So I walked away feeling very *in control* The best thing they have, is a GOOD relationship with creditors. For example, Sears. I owe them like $600 originally from a credit card. Well it went to collections years ago when I was young and stupid and thought it would "fo away" The collections people of course hiked it up to $800-something with fees, but sent me an offer to "settle for $350" This one, she said, was a good deal, and I should do it as soon as I have a job. My other card had an original balance of $1200. The She said that as soon as I have some cash, around $1500, if I were to go to the company and say "hey I have a cashier’s check for $1500 that I will give you right now, if we call it payment in full" they would tell me where to stick that check and demand at least 80% as a settlement amount. But if I let CCCS coach me or handle it for me, they have the prior relationship with the creditor and can get a settlement amount of 55% of the total. Anyway. I found them very very helpful. I have a feeling it’s one of those things where it is all in the counselor you get and the individual locations’ policies and m.o.’s Oh, and they are free. Aim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Credit Counseling Centers are super – if you get the right one. There are two of which I have personal knowledge. One was when we were still in the military – Consumer Credit Counseling Service. The other is one we deal with now – Harbour Credit Counseling Service (1-800-887-2389). Of the two, we FAR prefer Harbour. With CCCS, they made us feel like absolute failures, taking away our credit cards, requiring us to pay by U.S. postal money orders, talking down to us, etc. It was humiliating! Harbour is so much better!!! They will take on one or all of your creditors (we started with them with just one creditor who was being a total butthead about waiting just one month for regular payments). We now have turned over almost all of our creditors to them. I have never had a face to face meeting with these people, yet they call me from time to time to make sure I am not stressing over bills and send us a statement once a month showing us how much they paid each creditor, etc. We give them only $15 a month to manage our debt repayment program. (You can find cheaper or use your state’s for free. CCCS is the Maryland one.) You do it all over the phone or via snail mail. If anyone is interested in using their services, you can find them at: Harbour Credit Counseling Services, Inc. 397 Little Neck Road Bldg 3400, Suite 108 Virginia Beach, VA 23452 or call them at 1-800-887-2389 DeeTee

To reply via email, make sure to remove the spam protection from my address! It should read: aimgrrrl (at) mindspring (dot) com

Response:

Maggie's Farm

admin — Fri, 05 Jan 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

headbeat (ja…@jlu.bn3.com.nospam) wrote:

: Maggie’s Farm represents the corporate workplace. : Maggie’s Brother represents the unions. : Maggie’s Pa represents the government, : Maggie’s Ma represents religious establishments, the church. This is a really interesting analogy. I am curious as to who Maggie is, however. Would he be the corporate executive? Can’t say that I’m a Bob Dylan fan, but he does write neat lyrics. In my part-time working career so far, I’ve paid visits to both Maggie’s Farm and Maggie’s Brother. My tax dollars go to Maggie’s Pa and I grew up in Maggie’s Catholic Ma. But I since went to Maggie’s Ma’s daughter (cousin?) as I found large organized religion for me personally to stifle the *relationship* aspect of the faith. As for the farm, my personal view is that it takes a lot of creative networking and searching to find a niche within the corporate framework where meaningful work can be found. Even what is considered a pretty menial and low-wage job, i.e. serving customers at a convenience store, I found ways to spice it up and enjoy it for a good many years. It was also a great cultural experience as a lot of the people I worked with had East Indian backgrounds and I made some great friends there. : But it’s wanting : to be *free* that ironically can lead one into creating a self- : imposed prison of alienation. Hmmm.. interesting. There have been times in my life where I’ve felt like I was alone in this world – and that the quirks I have, gifts, ways of viewing life, etc. are alien and hardly anyone understands me. It is no joke to feel like an outsider. Especially when it occurs in the context of my own extended family. However, what helps get past these feelings of alienation is to focus on the uniqueness of each person. This is hard for those I’d ordinarily ‘write off’ but the rewards of sticking it out and working to gain a rapport are worth it. Just recently I picked up a reference letter from one of the supervisors at Maggie’s Brother grain elevator union and the boss wrote that two things he complimented me on where gaining rapport with students and full-time workers as well as working well with a minimum of supervision. So it’s nice to get good feedback from others and accept and forgive those people whom my first instinct would be to reject them. And a similar dynamic is in my family – finally there are starting to come around and recognize who I really am, but this wouldn’t have happened if I didn’t take active steps to love them and make contacts with them, in spite of the major difference in how we view the world, and my initial temptation to write them off. Steve

Response:

In article , headbeat wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You don’t get > to think for yourself, and when you do, you can’t really apply > your own ideas. Your head fills up with stuff that you can’t > really use, and it becomes a source of constant frustration for > you. Meanwhile, you get dumbed down with menial tasks over the > years. Bang — the once promising individual is assimilated to > play by the rules, even if those rules may work against you. > anyway, and they aren’t very effective. So maybe you’ll get a > little higher pay, and usually just token amounts that don’t > hardly mean anything. But really you’re just trading one form of > enslavement for another. Now you have the ‘middle man’ to deal > with — more rules, and because of that perhaps even less > opportunity to make your work personally meaningful. > its power? You’re still a cog in the machine, forced to > indirectly work against your own needs as a person. (And of > course, the less assertive *you* are, the more likely you are to > our system, a lot of it has to be blatant lies. So, even the > church isn’t a safe haven/niche. Rather, it just pacifies you > into accepting something you probably shouldn’t. > Bottom line: you’re a slave when you play by the rules. Your > desire for individuality and genuine personal freedom never > becomes realized, because the system steals that away from you. > Of course they’ll probably put on a happy face to disguise the > process and make it more bearable. Or at least force you to put > on the happy face. > And now, for me the thing will be to actually find decent work > that doesn’t do this, so I can re-enter mainstream society.

Heh! Heh! I think this about sums up the whole thing. Going on for two entire messages worth about how you don’t want to be a slave and you want to be different and you want to have your own ideas and yadda yadda.. And then at the end you want to "re-enter mainstream society"! In other words, you want all the PRIVILEGES associated with being one of the pack, without any of the losses. Seems you want to cherry-pick mainstream society, more like.. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

On 8 Jan 2001 07:44:18 GMT, Steve Ruelle wrote: > headbeat (ja…@jlu.bn3.com.nospam) wrote: > : Maggie’s Farm represents the corporate workplace. > : Maggie’s Brother represents the unions. > : Maggie’s Pa represents the government, > : Maggie’s Ma represents religious establishments, the church. > This is a really interesting analogy. I am curious as to who Maggie is, > however. Would he be the corporate executive? Can’t say that I’m a > Bob Dylan fan, but he does write neat lyrics.

Well, actually I guess Maggie would represent the system. All the main establishments that keep our society operating. Or Western society = Maggie, would be another way of looking at it. This was from what… 1966 or somewhere around there. Lots of protest songs are from that era. Although everyone jumped back *in* the system, for the most part, when it became more trendy. It’s interesting because ‘Maggie’ crops up in a lot of other songs as well, and it apparently means the same thing, so Bob Dylan had his own personal code going it seems. > In my part-time working career so far, I’ve paid visits to both Maggie’s > Farm and Maggie’s Brother. My tax dollars go to Maggie’s Pa and I grew up > in Maggie’s Catholic Ma. But I since went to Maggie’s Ma’s daughter > (cousin?) as I found large organized religion for me personally to stifle > the *relationship* aspect of the faith.

Yeah, then John Wesley Harding (JWH –> Yahweh –> God) the album/song came out. Kind of the same thing, the Jesus-figure does his thing basically outside the main establishment. I’m just rambling here… no point basically, except that Bob Dylan is cool. > As for the farm, my personal view is that it takes a lot of creative > networking and searching to find a niche within the corporate framework > where meaningful work can be found. Even what is considered a pretty > menial and low-wage job, i.e. serving customers at a convenience store, I > found ways to spice it up and enjoy it for a good many years. It was also > a great cultural experience as a lot of the people I worked with had > East Indian backgrounds and I made some great friends there.

I’ve found similar thing, I suppose — it’s not all bad by any means. And anyway, there *are* no alternatives, or very few of them for most of us. So you focus on the good aspects and do it anyway. That may be the best way to go, short of torturing yourself with doing nothing to contribute to society, refusing to use your talents. > : But it’s wanting > : to be *free* that ironically can lead one into creating a self- > : imposed prison of alienation. > Hmmm.. interesting. There have been times in my life where I’ve felt like > I was alone in this world – and that the quirks I have, gifts, ways of > viewing life, etc. are alien and hardly anyone understands me. It is no > joke to feel like an outsider. Especially when it occurs in the context > of my own extended family. However, what helps get past these feelings of > alienation is to focus on the uniqueness of each person. This is hard for > those I’d ordinarily ‘write off’ but the rewards of sticking it out and > working to gain a rapport are worth it.

I kind of think really what helps for me is finding common ground — because I tend to come from the position as being the ‘unique’ one. Otoh, the way you are suggesting to look at it is valuable when you encounter someone that from your perspective is viewed as ‘unique’ — they’re either ‘human’ or ‘alien,’ and hopefully you’d see the first of these if you can see the value of the traits that may be different from your own… > Just recently I picked up a reference letter from one of the supervisors > at Maggie’s Brother grain elevator union and the boss wrote that two > things he complimented me on where gaining rapport with students and > full-time workers as well as working well with a minimum of > supervision.

Well, certainly if I worked for United Parcel Service (UPS) I would personally be pretty loyal to my union — like $17.00 an hour just for driving around delivering packages. It struck me as odd a few years ago when they went on strike over a pay dispute. They by no means had a raw deal, at least from the pay standpoint. > So it’s nice to get good feedback from others and accept and forgive those > people whom my first instinct would be to reject them. And a similar > dynamic is in my family – finally there are starting to come around and > recognize who I really am, but this wouldn’t have happened if I didn’t > take active steps to love them and make contacts with them, in spite of > the major difference in how we view the world, and my initial temptation > to write them off.

Well, I’ve reopened the dialogue between my family and I, just within the last few weeks — that is, with the 1/2 of my parents who happen to live on the east coast. That’s where the majority of not-very-constructive criticism comes from in my life. But it’s actually forgivable and understandable. If you don’t explain to somebody the reasoning that guides you, they can only guess and of course would often get it wrong unless they happened to be telepathic. — headbeat

Response:

Yes, a recurring theme and more song lyrics. They’re as good of a source as any to use as a springboard. Some things I need to get out of my system *several* times before they really start to leave me alone. Plus, I’m bored, and I wish I were back in school. Sad but true. But it’ll help to move on with things as I start sending out resumes and maybe landing some interviews that scare the hell out of me, in my quest for a Real Job. So, it’s Maggie’s Farm, by Bob Dylan. Complete with my own spin, based on somebody else’s spin, although I don’t have the source to give credit. I can feel it now, I’m moving towards possibly being totally on-topic, one of these days. In the meantime, just ignore me. I don’t know where else to post. Maggie’s Farm > I ain’t gonna work on Maggie’s Farm no more. > No, I ain’t gonna work on Maggie’s Farm no more. > Well, I wake in the morning, > Fold my hands and pray for rain. > I got a head full of ideas > That are drivin’ me insane. > It’s a shame the way she makes me scrub the floor. > I ain’t gonna work on Maggie’s Farm no more.

Maggie’s Farm represents the corporate workplace. You don’t get to think for yourself, and when you do, you can’t really apply your own ideas. Your head fills up with stuff that you can’t really use, and it becomes a source of constant frustration for you. Meanwhile, you get dumbed down with menial tasks over the years. Bang — the once promising individual is assimilated to play by the rules, even if those rules may work against you. Yeah, you may end up with a reasonably ‘good’ job and a decent paycheck, at the cost of sacrificing the better part of your life, and maybe even your mind. > I ain’t gonna work for Maggie’s Brother no more. > No, I ain’t gonna work for Maggie’s Brother no more. > Well, he hands you a nickel, > He hands you a dime, > He asks you with a grin > If you’re havin’ a good time, > Then he fines you every time you slam the door. > I ain’t gonna work for Maggie’s Brother no more.

Maggie’s Brother represents the unions. They try to right the wrongs in the corporate workplace, their version of the wrongs anyway, and they aren’t very effective. So maybe you’ll get a little higher pay, and usually just token amounts that don’t hardly mean anything. But really you’re just trading one form of enslavement for another. Now you have the ‘middle man’ to deal with — more rules, and because of that perhaps even less opportunity to make your work personally meaningful. > I ain’t gonna work for Maggie’s Pa no more. > No, I ain’t gonna work for Maggie’s Pa no more. > Well, he puts his cigar > Out in your face just for kicks. > His bedroom window > It is made out of bricks. > The National Guard stands around his door. > Ah, I ain’t gonna work for Maggie’s Pa no more.

Maggie’s Pa represents the government, the entity that oversees Maggie (corporations). Endless bureaucracy is like a brick wall, and that brick wall is a source of tremendous power — not for you, but for the government. Plus, how can one justify supporting a government that has the power to make the corporate world a better place, but does little if anything positive with its power? You’re still a cog in the machine, forced to indirectly work against your own needs as a person. (And of course, the less assertive *you* are, the more likely you are to be that cog.) > I ain’t gonna work for Maggie’s Ma no more. > No, I ain’t gonna work for Maggie’s Ma no more. > Well, she talks to all the servants > About man and God and law. > Everybody says > She’s the brains behind Pa. > She’s sixty-eight, but she says she’s fifty-four. > I ain’t gonna work for Maggie’s Ma no more.

Maggie’s Ma represents religious establishments, the church. If the supposed moral authority guiding our system allows such a system to exist, can it really be trusted? Yeah there are a lot of nice sounding things. But if the church is the foundation of our system, a lot of it has to be blatant lies. So, even the church isn’t a safe haven/niche. Rather, it just pacifies you into accepting something you probably shouldn’t. (Of course this was before Dylan’s born-again Christian era, which happened a few years after he wrote this song…) > I ain’t gonna work on Maggie’s farm no more. > No, I ain’t gonna work on Maggie’s farm no more. > Well, I try my best > To be just like I am, > But everybody wants you > To be just like them. > They say sing while you slave and I just get bored. > I ain’t gonna work on Maggie’s farm no more.

Bottom line: you’re a slave when you play by the rules. Your desire for individuality and genuine personal freedom never becomes realized, because the system steals that away from you. Of course they’ll probably put on a happy face to disguise the process and make it more bearable. Or at least force you to put on the happy face. And now, for me the thing will be to actually find decent work that doesn’t do this, so I can re-enter mainstream society. So I can actually *afford* to go on dates and have a better social life… in case I discover some opportunities out there, which I think I have been, lately. So I can stop feeling so alienated from everybody else and start to fix up my life. Of course most of this is pretty exaggerated to make a point. But it’s wanting to be *free* that ironically can lead one into creating a self- imposed prison of alienation. Life sucks when there are no good alternatives, even if you really need one. — headbeat

Response:

There’s a reference to "Maggie’s Farm" embedded in the new Placebo album. Check it out: "Sick and tired of Maggie’s Farm…..she’s a bitch with broken arms" Placebo – "Slave To The Wage" Highly suggested by this listener.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -headbeat wrote: > Ideally, I don’t want to re-enter the mainstream. But it’s like > there are fundamental human needs that can never be met if you > don’t. So why even bother living if you’re going to deny > yourself those needs for the rest of your life? You just die a > slow painful death. > So it’s morally neutral territory: Exploit the system because > otherwise they’d exploit you anyway. Self-defence. If you can > do it effectively, it provides the power to live a more > fulfilling life. Helping others or just helping yourself — you > get greater freedom to use how you wish. Plus if everyone did > it, the system would fall apart, and possibly be replaced by a > better one. > Even with voluntary simplicity: making less money means paying > less taxes, and you still have access to all the public services > everyone else does (sometimes even more). You take advantage of > people with higher incomes. But, they take advantage of you when > you’re a cooperative employee. An eye for an eye, versus losing > one of your own eyes and being powerless to do anything about it. > Choice ‘A’ or choice ‘B’ is all I’ve got; if there *were* a > choice ‘C’ (a good niche) I’d probably take it, but I haven’t > found one. > BTW, the ideal would be something like the following: for > everything you take from the society, you give back in equal > measure. A ‘comfortable’ lifestyle requires ‘x’ amount of giving > back to the community in whatever fashion. (You can never really > know if you’re doing that, but you can strive for it.) That > would provide maximum personal fulfillment, because you have > nothing to feel guilty about — you’re free. > Most people are too busy surviving in order to do that, because > the people who can *give* them the power are too busy taking. > It’s not really a moral issue though, because people are forced > into their roles. > — > headbeat

Yeah, we’re all in the same boat! I struggled with this issue for several years before deciding "if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em" . The system doesn’t give a shit whether any individual lives, dies, drops out or succeeds, so you might as well make a decent life for yourself.

Response:

On Mon, 08 Jan 2001 17:00:31 GMT, Mark.Gr…@reading.ac.uk wrote: > Heh! Heh! I think this about sums up the whole > thing. Going on for two entire messages worth about how you don’t want to be > a slave and you want to be different and you want to have your own ideas and > yadda yadda.. And then at the end you want to "re-enter mainstream society"! > In other words, you want all the PRIVILEGES associated with being one of the > pack, without any of the losses. Seems you want to cherry-pick mainstream > society, more like..

Ideally, I don’t want to re-enter the mainstream. But it’s like there are fundamental human needs that can never be met if you don’t. So why even bother living if you’re going to deny yourself those needs for the rest of your life? You just die a slow painful death. So it’s morally neutral territory: Exploit the system because otherwise they’d exploit you anyway. Self-defence. If you can do it effectively, it provides the power to live a more fulfilling life. Helping others or just helping yourself — you get greater freedom to use how you wish. Plus if everyone did it, the system would fall apart, and possibly be replaced by a better one. Even with voluntary simplicity: making less money means paying less taxes, and you still have access to all the public services everyone else does (sometimes even more). You take advantage of people with higher incomes. But, they take advantage of you when you’re a cooperative employee. An eye for an eye, versus losing one of your own eyes and being powerless to do anything about it. Choice ‘A’ or choice ‘B’ is all I’ve got; if there *were* a choice ‘C’ (a good niche) I’d probably take it, but I haven’t found one. BTW, the ideal would be something like the following: for everything you take from the society, you give back in equal measure. A ‘comfortable’ lifestyle requires ‘x’ amount of giving back to the community in whatever fashion. (You can never really know if you’re doing that, but you can strive for it.) That would provide maximum personal fulfillment, because you have nothing to feel guilty about — you’re free. Most people are too busy surviving in order to do that, because the people who can *give* them the power are too busy taking. It’s not really a moral issue though, because people are forced into their roles. — headbeat

Response:

Location, Location, Location.

admin — Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

> But at the same time, I don’t want to come home to an empty apartment > anymore, either. Maybe I could get a cat…

Get a dog.

Response:

peerb…@wilde.oit.umass.edu (Imran Peerbhai) wrote: >Hmmmm…. Everyone seems to hate it from what I rad, but then why do >so many millions of people live there? And, if not LA, then where to >go? I don’t want to live in Minnesota–I’ld freeze to death(I grew up >in Chicago. I know exactly how cold minnesota is.) Any warm cities >with a good eomplyment sector and a good quality of life?

I’ve heard that Australia is quite good on those counts. I believe it’s quite tough to get into though, unless you happen to have the particular skills they’re after, and never having been myself I couldn’t comment on how shybie-friendly it is. But I’ve never met an Australian I didn’t like. (Not that I’ve met all that many. :-]) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Aye, that’s what I fear most. I value stability. Idon’t like change, >even if for the better. I’m going to get into a story. >A long time ago, in a city Far, Far, away, lived a young college student, >who was dating a girl he wasn’t happy with. Everybody believed he could >do better. He even believed he could do better. "Why settle for someone >you don’t love?" people said. And one day, he decided that real love was >worth the risk, and left someone who he didn’t love. Now, that college >boy is a hi-tech employee, and comes home to an empty apartment each >night. He thinks,"Doh". He realizes that although he may not have loved >the girl, it probably was better than the life he chose, with a wife he >doesn’t have. He stops and thinks about how he may never find anyone >ever again. And again, all he can think is,"Doh"

"Doh!" indeed. I know that feeling. :-[ >Now, he doesn't want to take a risk, even though he's not happy. He >doesn't have enough free time to look for another job, and certainly not >one very far away. >Why wake up one day, without enough money to buy food? Clothes? How >will I pay the rent? Although I do have a savings now--Enough to last me >a couple of months, I don't want to live as if I cannot survive. >But at the same time, I don't want to come home to an empty apartment >anymore, either. Maybe I could get a cat...

I've been thinking along similar lines lately, and I'm going to go off on a bit of a tangent here. I certainly wouldn't describe myself as a risk taker as I like stability and continuity in my life, although to look at my CV/resume you'd never guess it. :-} But I've recently come to realise that life is like wandering through a theme park. You can either walk around watching everyone else on the rides, or you can get on board yourself and have a go. Now the thing is, either option is valid as long as that's what you *really* want to do. But when this park closes at the end of the day, that's it! You don't get to say, "Oh, but I'd really have like to have given that one a try." I'm probably just over a third of the way through my personal theme park, and already I'm looking over my shoulder at some of the rides I've passed and thinking, "You know...maybe that would have been a little scary, but maybe it would also have been fun." Maybe it's time I stopped watching all the others, and giving it a try for myself. OK, so maybe that wasn't the best analogy in the world, but the bottom line is (and yeah, I know it's a cliche) that you only get one shot at your life. Are you going to live it like an adventure, or play it safe? I'm beginning to realise that it's the people who take risks who get the most of out of life. Yeah, they may have times when their lives are full of uncertainties,and they may not have planned their future in the meticulous way that I do. But they live. I only exist. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

Mark (ether...@hotmail.com) wrote:

: On the topic of being over-worked I have a sneaking suspicion that we : information workers are being screwed. From the companies I've worked with : it seems that you have business people running the show who aren't highly : skilled but know how to work it's workers to the bone. It kind of reminds me : of the days during the industrial revolution when the factory owners screwed : the manual workers. It's the programmers and the designers who are running : the industry but it's the manager's who are reaping the rewards. The only : solution is to set up on your own or freelance. : : > What is life like in Los Angeles, especially as it pertains to living Shy? : : I lived there for a while and I wouldn't recommend it. It has palm trees but : the people aren't very nice there. It's full of wannabe actors and : screen-writers so if you're not a producer people don't want to know you. : Hmmmm.... Everyone seems to hate it from what I rad, but then why do so many millions of people live there? And, if not LA, then where to go? I don't want to live in Minnesota--I'ld freeze to death(I grew up in Chicago. I know exactly how cold minnesota is.) Any warm cities with a good eomplyment sector and a good quality of life? : I'm not sure if location is everything, there is a certain about of making : the best of were you live. Though that's coming from someone who wants to : leave a small town for a large city. And as someone living in a large city, I can tell ya that it's very isolating. But, YMMV. : : > If I quit my job, I lose the security of both a paycheck, and a lifestyle : > I've already grown accustomed to. If I stay, as every day passes by, I : > remain alone. Then comes the risks. I feel shy people are inhently bad : > risk takers. We really hate losing. : : I've quit a number of jobs and you get used to the insecurity. Take the risk : because when you are in your twenties/thirties you can probably handle : anything. Aye, that's what I fear most. I value stability. Idon't like change, even if for the better. I'm going to get into a story. A long time ago, in a city Far, Far, away, lived a young college student, who was dating a girl he wasn't happy with. Everybody believed he could do better. He even believed he could do better. "Why settle for someone you don't love?" people said. And one day, he decided that real love was worth the risk, and left someone who he didn't love. Now, that college boy is a hi-tech employee, and comes home to an empty apartment each night. He thinks,"Doh". He realizes that although he may not have loved the girl, it probably was better than the life he chose, with a wife he doesn't have. He stops and thinks about how he may never find anyone ever again. And again, all he can think is,"Doh" Now, he doesn't want to take a risk, even though he's not happy. He doesn't have enough free time to look for another job, and certainly not one very far away. Why wake up one day, without enough money to buy food? Clothes? How will I pay the rent? Although I do have a savings now--Enough to last me a couple of months, I don't want to live as if I cannot survive. But at the same time, I don't want to come home to an empty apartment anymore, either. Maybe I could get a cat... : : Mark. : : -- Imran H Peerbhai http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~peerbhai/resume.html peerb...@wilde.oit.umass.edu

Response:

On the topic of being over-worked I have a sneaking suspicion that we information workers are being screwed. From the companies I've worked with it seems that you have business people running the show who aren't highly skilled but know how to work it's workers to the bone. It kind of reminds me of the days during the industrial revolution when the factory owners screwed the manual workers. It's the programmers and the designers who are running the industry but it's the manager's who are reaping the rewards. The only solution is to set up on your own or freelance. > What is life like in Los Angeles, especially as it pertains to living Shy?

I lived there for a while and I wouldn't recommend it. It has palm trees but the people aren't very nice there. It's full of wannabe actors and screen-writers so if you're not a producer people don't want to know you. I'm not sure if location is everything, there is a certain about of making the best of were you live. Though that's coming from someone who wants to leave a small town for a large city. > If I quit my job, I lose the security of both a paycheck, and a lifestyle > I've already grown accustomed to. If I stay, as every day passes by, I > remain alone. Then comes the risks. I feel shy people are inhently bad > risk takers. We really hate losing.

I've quit a number of jobs and you get used to the insecurity. Take the risk because when you are in your twenties/thirties you can probably handle anything. Mark.

Response:

>The original labor movement made the 8-hour day and the 40-hour workweek >a major issue. Now that we're told machines can do things better, >cheaper, faster, it seems like a reduction to 20 hours is in order.

Yes, I was always told this, too. Machines/computers are going to make everything SO much more efficient, we'll have to work far less. Whatever happened to that pipe dream?

Response:

Greetings All, Long time, no see. Been living a whole new life, on another coast, and have discovered something. Location has an effect on your happiness. Well, mine anyway. I've hopped about this great land of ours, and have begun to think that I'm definately screwed. Now that I'm not in school anymore(I know, still have the account--It's vestigal.), I've found that my new High-Tech job has a massive cost. No chance of meeting anyone. Heck, everyone I work with is older than I. I was talking to a co-worker today, who is probably going to be quitting and moving on to something else. He's very much like me. Knows the same programming languages. Earns the same cash. Same education, etc... He's been in high tech for years(over a decade). He's now 35 years old, single, shy, and moving into dissatisfaction. He's luckier than I. At least he had a few dates in the last year. Me, notta. Ever since I bought a car, I haven't so much as met one new person. And I realize a little more. Car==Not Bus. Bus has new people(you never talk to them, but once in a while, an accidental conversation arises.) Car has you, radio. Work has no women, Ok, I lie, there are 2 in my age range at work, but they're temps, and out of my leaage anyway. I love my job, but hate the lack of a social life, hate the cold and rain(seattle now.). I'm gaining weight, and am profoundly unhappy in life. I used to love work, now I trudge through the days, realizing that work is a trap. I might love my job, but where am I meeting somebody to spend the rest of my life with? I have a neck-ache right now. A simple massage would fix it in 10 seconds flat. Who will I get a neck rub from? Who was the last person I kissed? When? It's been years since my last kiss--3--. Each day passes, and I get one day older. I'm 25 now, what will life be like when I'm 26? 27? 28? Will I wake up one day, 30+ years old, and realize that I haven't had a date in 8+ years? Then I remember my old life. I remember dating a great girl, who I totally loved. I remember getting other dates. It took time, and I was never very good at it, but they did come.(and sometimes so did I. And I realized something. My life has never been the same on either coast. It was best back in the midwest. I've been happiest in these tiny college towns. I realize I can never go back to those towns. I've outgrown them. Nor can I find anything at all here. I can't imagine quitting my job. I have stock options, a good salary, good benefits, etc... Yet every day, I feel that I lose a little more of my soul. The emptiness that is lonliness is a darkness, creeping from the very outside of my being into my core. City life has turned me slightly jaded. I used to care about the homeless, the impoverished, and people I felt were wronged. Now, I just whish they were out of my face. Everywhere you go, it's, "Hey buddy, spare a penny to help the homeless." And as I sit here typing, another sad thought hits. I just don't care anymore. I saw a person today, on the entrance ramp to the freeway, holding a sign. "Will work--I have a family and kids to support." I saw that sign, and I was almost jealous. I mean, the guy didn't have much--But did he have what we never will? This high tech life--Is it worth not having a wife? Are stock options better than backrubs? Will free food(company provides dinner every night, to encourage people to stay late.) ever be worth more than coming home to somebody? Back on the original thought. Location, Location, Location. I never want to live in NYC(Although the last time I did have a date, it was with a girl I met in NYC.). I can't think of a good way to live my life. If I quit my job, I lose the security of both a paycheck, and a lifestyle I've already grown accustomed to. If I stay, as every day passes by, I remain alone. Then comes the risks. I feel shy people are inhently bad risk takers. We really hate losing. Even though the economy is hot, it's hot depending on where you live. I don't know where I would go. What would I do? I can't live in a small town. What use is a techie in a town that grows corn? What use is a techy on the ranch? What use is a techie behind the counter of a walmart? I can't stay in the big city. The techie jobs are grueling hours, and no chance of a social life. When I do have time, what do I have to do? It's a vicous circle. I can't bring myself to go to bars. I see all the alcoholics, the 40 year olds sitting with a beer, and see someting that I never want to be. Yet, as every day goes by, I notice that I look and act just a little more like them. Yesterday night, I had 4 shots of Bailey's before bed. Is this the trap? Is this new era of properarity really nothing more than a trap? With guys like me around, some jerk is going around dating 3 or 4 girls at a time. Why? Because he can. Because Guys like me are sitting in our offices, as these other guys are working out every day. As they gain whatever advantadge in meeting new people. Yes, we have more cash. I drive a Cabriolet. Do we really live better? Are we the Dexter's, sitting around in our lab, laughing maniacally at simple new tricks we can make our computers do? At least Dexter has Dee Dee. Who do we have? Back to Location. Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, WHERE we live affects our quality of life? Why do so many people live in California, Texas, Illinois, New York, Minnesota? Where do we shybies go, and where do we work, such that our quality of life is improved? How do we do it? I can't answer these questions. But, I can ask ye, all who will read this post, to answer these questions: What is life like in Los Angeles, especially as it pertains to living Shy? What can a high techie looking for love really do career wise? If L.A turns out to not be a good place to live for a shybe, where is? I can say that I vote the midwest, but I cannot survive the cold. Seattle has taken some of my adaptability away. To anyone willing to help this lost soul find his heart, I thank you. -- Imran H Peerbhai http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~peerbhai/resume.html peerb...@wilde.oit.umass.edu

Response:

My personal fantasy, pipe dream though it may be, is to earn enough money per hour to be able to put in less than 40 hours a week. (although 40 isn't *too* bad, it's when you start working more than this say 50, 60, 80 hours a week that is the real insanity (unless of course you reach that rare state of bliss where your work *is* a passion)). And why shouldn't I have this fantasy of mine? Ok, moneys a bit tight, but I do earn enough to live on now. It really doesn't take all *that* much to live on (although I suppose it's more than some people make - and also if you have kids and all that, *that* I guess can get expensive). Futhermore I believe I have the potential to get higher salaries if I put in the effort (and it takes quite a bit). But this is not motivating to *me* if all it means is more stuff (home ownership, a new car, blah, blah - although if that's what *you* want go for it, to each his own ...) however if I can use the money to be able to work less that *is* appealing to *me*, however it may be just another pipe dream.... Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

>Physically, these kinds of jobs are >not demanding, but psychologically they can be exceptionally >draining. After all, there is a lot of constant background noise (machine >hums, telephones ringing, beeping, chatter, etc.) which can be stressful >as the brain is constantly processing this, even if it may be >unconscious. Thus, with all this sensory info processing, it can be >exhausting. Much more so, than say, extensive physical exercise.

Wow, I never thought of that. That just could be it. I have always wondered why I feel so drained in office environments. It's terribly exhausting......as I said, I've spent entire days bike riding off-road, and I still don't feel as tired as I do after a full day of sitting on my butt working in Excel. <<>> Such animals exist? I'd show up to a class entitled "Economics of Leisure," too......hehe! >Not only should the workweek be lessened, but the amount of vacation time >increased in given jobs. It may just be that economic productivity would >*increase* if this were to occur, contrary to popular type-A belief.

Exactly! What's this 2-weeks-per-year BS? Is that really enough vacation? If we're only going to get 2 weeks per year, I'm sorry, we need to substantially shorten the work week. Why is it that the prevailing corporate mentality insists on literally working employees into early old age? I strongly believe that we can *still* function as a society while working a hell of a lot less, and still maintain economic "good times," though as someone pointed out, I ain't exactly seeing much economic benefit from this supposed "boom." In fact, I feel rather disillusioned.......I am SICK AND TIRED of hearing about how damn affluent everyone is becoming. It's certainly not happening here, I know that much. I am a college business graduate 2 years out, and I STILL am forced to work for a paltry $10-12/hour. I guess if a) you don't write computer code, or b) you don't start some idiotic dot.com company that will go under in 5 years anyway, you aren't taking part in this supposed economic boom. I am so sickened by all the stupid "Internet Economy" hype, I'm going to go blow chunks. I'm sorry, I know that many of you here work in the tech sector, but I'm going to laugh my a** off in 5 years when we are mired in recession and half these tech companies have gone under. Many of them aren't even profitable NOW........only reason why their stock prices are through the roof is because Wall Street is inhabited by a bunch of frothing, hype-peddling fools. But, I digress. >There comes a point of diminishing returns when trying to do things faster >and quicker, only leads to decreased output.

Exactly! Spoken like someone else who really did pay attention in economics class. I thought I was the only one. My fellow business graduates and those who graduated before me obviously did not grasp the concept of "diminishing returns." >but I think that's possible for growth to occur on the >basis of things like urban sustainability, a more relaxed work week and >increased vacation time, a more cooperative atmosphere, and a more >equitable income distribution.

I agree. I don't know how it is in Canada where you live, but in the United States, unfortunately, this will never happen. This is the land of unbridled capitalism. Here, heaven forbid if you disagree with the prevailing view, too, or else you'll be labeled "a communist." Oh, I'm sorry - I guess if wanting more free time and a less hectic, stressful society makes me a Communist, then so be it. Why can't people here wake up to all the utter bullshit capitalist propaganda we have been spoon-fed our whole lives? Life doesn't have to be this way.......it really doesn't. I see it, but I feel like I'm just railing hopelessly against the grain........everyone else seems all too content to merely leave the system as it is. >This is primarily a social-democratic >view, which doesn't argue totally against economic growth, but recognizes >that people do come before profits.

I agree completely with the people-before-profits sentiment. What was I saying about shyness? Ahhhh, I don't remember......hehe

Response:

Note to lurkers/readers: the discussion has somehow gravitated towards economics. But no worries, this has everything to do with shyness, as economic and political issues affect our everyday well-being. : Wow, I never thought of that. That just could be it. I have always wondered why : I feel so drained in office environments. It's terribly exhausting......as I : said, I've spent entire days bike riding off-road, and I still don't feel as : tired as I do after a full day of sitting on my butt working in Excel. Exactly. I would suspect, also, that sitting behind a desk or computer all day is not good for your physical health too. Stretching and napping are good ways to feel more relaxed, same with drinking water and bathroom breaks. Perhaps you can provide a professional proposal to your supervisor outlining how these and other benefits would help you in the job more, and help produce more. You could put forth the argument that you would be willing to stay at work longer if you were given more "recess" breaks. Thus, if the employer demands that you accompish set tasks, but doesn't give a time frame, perhaps explain that you could do the tasks at the end of the day, even if it meant staying a little longer due to things like napping, afternoon breaks, or other things. Best best is to negotiate, and to do so professionally. That is, you should already have a good trust established with the employer, and be willing to make accomodations - i.e. don't always expect to have your way, but nonetheless get your ideas out. Also, pay attention to how changes in your work system would affect others, and perhaps lobby to see if others would prefer changes, such as more breaks, etc. The key thing to realize is, how would improved worker conditions benefit the organization. Always keep this in the forefront, should you decide to do this. Organizations are starting to feel pressure that doing things the "old" way just isn't competitive anymore. Newer companies who do practice these things, of increased worker respect, giving workers more time to "play" to enhance creativity, are certainly in existence, and it's always helpful to back up any negotiations to change a work environment with references from competing organizations who have done such changes already. Basically the message is that if companies want to compete, they need to change the way they treat their workers. : Such animals exist? I'd show up to a class entitled "Economics of Leisure," : too......hehe! Actually, I was just perusing the university calendar, and unfortunately such a class doesn't exist There is a course called the economics of labor markets, however, and it does touch base on this topic. But they do have a sub-field of leisure economics, it's just that my university doesn't offer courses in it, unfortunately. : Exactly! What's this 2-weeks-per-year BS? Is that really enough vacation? Hardly. Many German companies offer 4 months a year for vacations. Also other societies do as well. If : we're only going to get 2 weeks per year, I'm sorry, we need to substantially : shorten the work week. I agree. I heard from my economics prof, who is a labor economist, that the AVERAGE labor hours of work per week per person is 42 in the U.S. That's insanse - that's the average, for crissakes! In Canada, it's a little less, 37.5 hours, but that is still quite a lot. It is likely that executive types are likely putting in 55-65 hours of work each week, if not more. Again, this stuff is discussed in detail in Ralph Keyes' book "Timelock" and I highly recommend it for a good read. I strongly believe : that we can *still* function as a society while working a hell of a lot less, : and still maintain economic "good times," True enough - as the outdated idea of 'growth' involves doing more things faster in less time - when productivity could be enhanced more by using more creative and humane methods of treating workers. We're stuck in a rut, though, at least with the prevailing corporate dinosaur model - in that people don't want to change their habits. : Exactly! Spoken like someone else who really did pay attention in economics : class. Well, it is my second favorite class this semester (second only to environmental psychology) I thought I was the only one. My fellow business graduates and those who : graduated before me obviously did not grasp the concept of "diminishing : returns." And it's not that difficult a concept to grasp, either. Initially, you have large marginal increases in product, but as the number of inputs continues to increase (for example, aggegrate labor hours worked) then past the point of MP = ML each additional increase in product decreases with a constant increase in labor. : >but I think that's possible for growth to occur on the : >basis of things like urban sustainability, a more relaxed work week and : >increased vacation time, a more cooperative atmosphere, and a more : >equitable income distribution.

: I agree. I don't know how it is in Canada where you live, To a degree, we have a socialistic system, but the prevailing corporate mentality from the U.S. does enter heavily into the way things are done here as well. One of the key differences, though, lies in the health care system which is essentially univeral. However this is changing for the worse, as Alberta is implementing a two-tiered private health care system. The province where I live is the most social-democratic of the major ones, but I'm not so sure about the eastern provinces. I should beef up on my Canadian politics but in the United : States, unfortunately, this will never happen. This is the land of unbridled : capitalism. I realize this - and while capitalism does have many benefits, it becomes a problem when the prevailing caplitalist mentality is extreme, just like it would be a problem is communism or socialism or other systems are taken to the extreme. It seems, that in the U.S. at least, capitalism has become a de facto golden calf - one large honkin' idol. Although there are some changes in the society, such as the influx of the environmental movement and also the voluntary simplicity movement, the dominant capitalistic view still is what I would consider at extreme proportions. Oh, I'm sorry - I guess if wanting : more free time and a less hectic, stressful society makes me a Communist, then : so be it. Call yourself a socialist and you won't get as many tomatoes thrown at you But seriously I agree with you, that the society really is sick - that those who express legitimate and well-thought out criticisms to the prevailing establishment get branded with unfair labels. It truly is an extreme view that society holds that if well-thinking and intelligent critics are labelled in plain and simple derogatory terms to discouarge the system from being placed under close scrunity. The best bet, as I mentioned above, is to work proactively to change the society, however. Merely getting emotinally upset about it, or lashing out at the establishment isn't going to change it - there needs to be effective, constructive, and goal-oriented negotiations taking place within organizaitons and the larger political sphere. Life doesn't have to be this : way.......it really doesn't. I see it, but I feel like I'm just railing : hopelessly against the grain........everyone else seems all too content to : merely leave the system as it is. See above. I totally agree with you here - but efforts need to be made for constructive and goal-oriented social change. Even if it means just influencing one person or organization. : I agree completely with the people-before-profits sentiment. Indeed, it's so obvious that it doesn't need to be repeated. After all, it is people that bring in profits to the organizations to begin with. So, if you really want growth, then treat the people fairly. By the way, I did some research, and Kellogs Inc is an example of a socially aware corporation that follows these principles quite well. So remember that the next time you buy your cereal Steve

Response:

Steve Ruelle (strue...@interchange.ubc.ca) wrote:

: This is primarily a social-democratic : view, which doesn't argue totally against economic growth, but recognizes : that people do come before profits. I should mention that, in my political explorations, I was heavily drawn into the 'green' view previously. Basically, the 'green' political view argues against unfettered economic growth, as it is assumed such growth takes away from the finite and irreplaceable resources of the planet which fuel the growth to begin with. In many ways this is true - and I do agree with the idea of the planet as providing our life support systems. However, from more reading I've done on the socially-aware side of things, it has been brought up the idea of 'human capital' - that is working with human potential to solve problems and as a source of productivity. This does not mean that humans are reduced to commodities - but rather that when you focus on creativity, potential, and/or more democratically run corporations then this helps boost productivity. Thus, economic growth need not come directly from the planet, but also it is possible for growth to occur with human potential. At least, that's what I've understood so far. Also, arguments have been made that environmentally sustainable technologies are indeed profitable, and it is not paradoxical to suggest that working towards urban sustainability can act to increase profits. For instance, Ballard Inc. has some sizeable shares on the stock market, and this is one of the leading manufacturers in alternative fuel technologies. In this sense, you can get the best of both worlds - foster a cooperative social atmosphere and make money too The problem, though, is that major corporations continue to exploit the environment AND people, believing that growth can only occur the way it's been done before. Thus, some environmenalists argue (c.f. the World Watch Institute) that if the earth's resources are used sustainably, the economic value would increase than if they are used with the current method - namely exploit, consume, and dispose. Anyways. Steve

Response:

HyprRel23 (hyprre...@aol.com) wrote:

: Most large cities in this country by their very : definition PROMOTE shyness, and you have to wage a major effort to get things : rolling in the social department. It's all too easy to be shy and isolated in a : big city. True. Not all cities are like this, however, for instance where I live (Vancouver, B.C.) people are quite friendly - and I suppose this has a lot to with the prevalent social and political climate, not to mention its proximity to the mountains and oceans. Basically, Vancouver is surrounded by nature, so this does ease the urban pressure somewhat. Also, we are one of the dwindling provinces in the country that still has a social-democratic government elected (or, as close to one as you can get). But even so, there is still a lot of urban loneliness, even in this city, and one can imagine how much worse it could get, say living in L.A., Atlanta, or some of the other cities you cited. There are a lot of benefits to urban living - one being the wide variety of things to do, places to check out, restaurants to eat in, etc. however a huge drawback is the intense individualism and difficulty, as you say, finding opportunities to get the social ball rolling. But, perhaps, the reason for this is more political than environmental. In that, other largely dense cities, which would, by environmental standards, be 'tense', 'stressful', etc. they can be exceptionally social and there can be little problems in getting things together and a sense of community. The Netherlands is a good example of this - although the population density is the highest in the world, you don't get hardly as much of the urban loneliness as you would in say a major American city. Far too easy. First of all, like you mention, you have the grueling, : demanding slave labor we call "making a living." Yeppers. : from your place of employment in a traffic-clogged joint like LA, Miami, : Atlanta, Washington DC, Chicago and the like, you shave 1-2 hours easy off your : day, sitting in isolation (rush hour traffic). You got it. Millions of people around you : everyday, but still alone.......this is the big city reality for a shybie. You have it right. As I mentioned above, the reasons for this may be mainly political - in that other big cities are "shy-friendly" and/or have a largely developed sense of community, despite the fact that the population densities may be very high. What : happens when you DO get home? Sitting in an office all day is : exhausting........in fact, I feel more tired after a day in an office spent : sitting on my butt than I do after a 50-mile long bike ride. True - and I've felt like this as well after putting in long hours serving customers at service stations before. Physically, these kinds of jobs are not demanding, but psychologically they can be exceptionally draining. After all, there is a lot of constant background noise (machine hums, telephones ringing, beeping, chatter, etc.) which can be stressful as the brain is constantly processing this, even if it may be unconscious. Thus, with all this sensory info processing, it can be exhausting. Much more so, than say, extensive physical exercise. Speaking of which, going for a long run or workout after an office job is a good idea, as it gets the endorphin levels kickin' afterwards. : What else do you have : time for? Not a heck of a lot - after all with long hours worked, there isn't much free time in between. But even so, with the free time you have, it makes sense to maximize the use of it, and have as much fun as you can, and/or pursue things that are meaningful to you - so that if you can't stand your job, you can at least do things like you in between when you're working. In this sense, this is where time management comes in. Find out how to eek as much fun out of those in-between hours as you possibly can Ideally, working at a job you love, not so much doing it because you have to, is something to strive for - but if you're stuck in a dead-end job, then making the most of the free time you have is a good thing to shoot for. > Work really does take up an inordinate amount of time for

: people......I really think the workweek should be substantially lessened. Oh, I couldn't agree more - and so do a lot of leisure economists If my university offers a course in the economics of leisure, you can be sure I'll show up Not only should the workweek be lessened, but the amount of vacation time increased in given jobs. It may just be that economic productivity would *increase* if this were to occur, contrary to popular type-A belief. More relaxed, creative, and rejuvinated workers would be able to contribute more to organizations and boost profits. What : are the benefits to getting things done fast, faster, and fastest? Why does : society feel this almost obsessive-compulsive need to move ever faster? Because it's f*cked in the head, that's why. But seriously, what needs to happen is for changes to be made in organizations, and in the larger socio-political sphere in order to promote the idea of a more relaxed, slowed down, and healthy society with the idea that when workers are more relaxed and creative, productivity can increase. After all, just look at Germany. There comes a point of diminishing returns when trying to do things faster and quicker, only leads to decreased output. The more you try and control time, the more time controls you. The obsession-compulsion of trying to do more things in less time is also known as the time-crunch. See, for instance, Ralph Keyes' book, "Timelock: How life got so hectic and what to do about it". Although some would argue that the economy should not grow at all - this is a valid view - but I think that's possible for growth to occur on the basis of things like urban sustainability, a more relaxed work week and increased vacation time, a more cooperative atmosphere, and a more equitable income distribution. This is primarily a social-democratic view, which doesn't argue totally against economic growth, but recognizes that people do come before profits. Steve

Response:

The hardest part of trying to work less than 40 hours is not the per hourly wage, cause once you manage to get that amount up there a bit, employers are anxious to have you work as long as they can get you to. Worse you might get them to let you work less hours for less money, but the job pressure will make it difficult to work just the agreed upon hours. But you will still get to enjoy the lower salary. ========================= <1womanscyberperso...@my-deja.com> wrote in message

news:8beu68$m15$1@nnrp1.deja.com... My personal fantasy, pipe dream though it may be, is to earn enough money per hour to be able to put in less than 40 hours a week. (although 40 isn't *too* bad, it's when you start working more than this say 50, 60, 80 hours a week that is the real insanity (unless of course you reach that rare state of bliss where your work *is* a passion)). And why shouldn't I have this fantasy of mine? Ok, moneys a bit tight, but I do earn enough to live on now. It really doesn't take all *that* much to live on (although I suppose it's more than some people make - and also if you have kids and all that, *that* I guess can get expensive). Futhermore I believe I have the potential to get higher salaries if I put in the effort (and it takes quite a bit). But this is not motivating to *me* if all it means is more stuff (home ownership, a new car, blah, blah - although if that's what *you* want go for it, to each his own ...) however if I can use the money to be able to work less that *is* appealing to *me*, however it may be just another pipe dream.... Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

In article <20000323153904.04905.00000...@ng-ft1.aol.com>, hyprre...@aol.com (HyprRel23) wrote: >What > happens when you DO get home? >I don't know about anyone > else, but after work, I slog uninspiredly through a gym workout,

In a gym or at home? Might there be opportunities to meet people if it's a gym, or is it the same old regulars? > eat dinner, > putz around on the computer a little, and head for bed. Sounds nasty. >Work really does take up an inordinate amount of time for > people......I really think the workweek should be substantially

lessened. The original labor movement made the 8-hour day and the 40-hour workweek a major issue. Now that we're told machines can do things better, cheaper, faster, it seems like a reduction to 20 hours is in order. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

>What can a high techie looking for love really do career wise? >If L.A turns out to not be a good place to live for a shybe, where is?

I doubt that *any* of America's large metropolitan areas are going to be ideal environments for a shy guy. Most large cities in this country by their very definition PROMOTE shyness, and you have to wage a major effort to get things rolling in the social department. It's all too easy to be shy and isolated in a big city. Far too easy. First of all, like you mention, you have the grueling, demanding slave labor we call "making a living." Second, just to get to and from your place of employment in a traffic-clogged joint like LA, Miami, Atlanta, Washington DC, Chicago and the like, you shave 1-2 hours easy off your day, sitting in isolation (rush hour traffic). Millions of people around you everyday, but still alone.......this is the big city reality for a shybie. What happens when you DO get home? Sitting in an office all day is exhausting........in fact, I feel more tired after a day in an office spent sitting on my butt than I do after a 50-mile long bike ride. What are you supposed to do after you go to work, to meet people? I don't know about anyone else, but after work, I slog uninspiredly through a gym workout, eat dinner, putz around on the computer a little, and head for bed. What else do you have time for? Work really does take up an inordinate amount of time for people......I really think the workweek should be substantially lessened. What are the benefits to getting things done fast, faster, and fastest? Why does society feel this almost obsessive-compulsive need to move ever faster? Something has got to give.

Response:

Why don't you skip the free dinner one night a week and volunteer at a homeless shelter? Get your compassion back and rejoin the land of the living. You don't get free dinners in real life. lm Imran Peerbhai wrote in message

news:38d9b50b@oit.umass.edu... - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -> Greetings All, > of my being into my core. City life has turned me slightly jaded. I > used to care about the homeless, the impoverished, and people I felt were > wronged. Now, I just whish they were out of my face. Everywhere you go,

Response:

In article <38d9b...@oit.umass.edu>, peerb...@emily.oit.umass.edu (Imran Peerbhai) wrote: > Greetings All, > Long time, no see.

Likewise, buddy! Good to see you dropping in here - I enjoyed reading your posts from the past! Location has an effect on your happiness. It has a huge effect, actually. In fact, there's a whole field of psychology, environmental psychology to be exact, that studies this stuff. I am nearly finished a full-credit course on it, taught by a world-renowned professor, Peter Suedfeld. He is featured many times in Winifred Galagher's book, "The Power of Place". The theme of the book is that our surroudings shape our emotions and where we live has a huge influence on our life. > Car==Not Bus. > Bus has new people(you never talk to them, but once in a while, an > accidental conversation arises.)

While the conveniences of a car certainly are worthwhile - particularly for long distance commuting and travelling on road trips, I find taking the bus for short commutes or going around the city is more beneficial. For one, if you're going to places like campus, the airport, downtown, or other frequently served routes, the bus service is frequent, and you don't lose too much time by riding instead of driving. Also, as you mention, there are chances for conversation and meeting people. And, it can be fun! For instance, in the morning commute to campus, I enjoy talking to one of my friends in the theatre faculty - and we get a chance to relax, joke, and catch up on things we've been doing. When he's not around, I occasionally strike up conversations with the bus drivers. One guy, who is the regular driver on the morning bus, is nicknamed 'Speedy' because he drives the damn thing so fast! Sometimes I have to hang on for dear life as he careens around corners and whallops over road-bumps. This regular driver has gone on vacation, though, so we have a slower guy now Also, taking the bus, especially on short city trips, is environmentally friendly, and it saves the stress and hassle of fighting traffic, finding parking spots, and saving money on today's ridiculously high gas prices, which are forecast only to get higher. (I heard they would break 85 cents a litre by July, as OPEC is cutting fuel exports - in the States, I'm sure that translates to more than $2 a flippin' gallon) Back last year when I took the car, I found it to be quite lonely commuting back and worth, and many times I'd get depressed. The radio helped, but country music only does so much good I used to love work, now I trudge through > the days, realizing that work is a trap.

Perhaps, if you feel unfulfilled in your job - why not look for another one that you feel more happy in doing? Or take some time to volunteer at homeless shelters when you're not working. You're certainly not alone, though, if you feel you are trapped in your job. I was talking to a guy from the States who came up to visit for the weekend, and he said that something like 60% of Americans hate their jobs, perhaps more. Although I'm not sure of the exact source for this stat, there are a fair percentage of people who feel trapped in their jobs, and are at a loss as to how to find fulfillment in them. Perhaps pick up a copy of Joe Dominguez and Vicki Robin's book, "Your Money or Your Life" as they have entire chapters devoted to the very issues you are struggling with, and they can articulate advice and solutions to your problem much better than I ever could. Also, if you do decide to get another job, then I recommend Richard Bolles' book, "What Color is Your Parachute" for a good overview on the steps to finding meaningful employment. You may need to question whether the security of the corporation is worth it. Sure, the stock options, paycheque, benefits, and all that are good, but if you feel unfufilled and unhappy at your work, is it worth your time to show up at the door every morning? I might love my job, but where > am I meeting somebody to spend the rest of my life with?

Well, I feel similarily with this 'special someone' issue, however I try not to dwell on it too much. The way I look at it, is that I have my entire 20's to date women, and get involved in serious relationships, that something may develop. If it goes, excellent, however if I am "doomed" to a single life, then I figure I'll still make the most of it. The way I look at it, is that I plan on having a whole bunch of fun from now until a long time - and maximizing my experiences within a given time frame. I've worked real hard to overcome shyness, and now that I feel comfortable enough to relate to others and develop some sort of a life plan, I say, let's have some fun! I have friends tell me that I would make a woman extremely happy, and for some reason I believe that. Also I've gone on dates with about a half-dozen people or so, so there are successes in that regard. And I try not to make too many social comparisons, to other people and society. When people make comments about my 'love life' or how I've not dated that often, or 'when will I marry and settle down' I find a way to put some humor into how that is a valid lifestlye, but I need not feel that I *HAVE* to pursue that route. I can't imagine > quitting my job. I have stock options, a good salary, good benefits, etc... > Yet every day, I feel that I lose a little more of my soul. The > emptiness that is lonliness is a darkness, creeping from the very outside > of my being into my core.

I really feel for you here - and I've felt similarily in the past, albeit not as deeply as you have. But, still, 'little depressions' I go through really get me to look at myself and what I want out of life. I realize that I have what it takes to turn things around, and set goals in congruence with my life missions statement. Whenever this stuff happens, I immediately get off my butt and set a goal, say running around the neighborhood. In your case, I would seriously encourage you to examine just how worth it your job is, and the security of the corporation is, to you. So what if you have the flippin' stock options. If you feel that your life is empty and you are struggling, then what is having stock in some Fortune 500 corporation going to do to change things around for you? You may have the security of a paycheque, but if deep inside you feel insecure, then the money really doesn't do much to change how you feel about yourself. I encourage you to take a look at yourself, and really examine your values, and find out just what it is you want in life - so that you can truly be happy. If it means quitting the job, then do it. Even though the economy is hot, Well, this is arguable. The economy may be hot for the richest 5% of the nation and the wealth that it carries around - i.e. the corporate elite - but in terms of the general public welfare, that may not be the case. Not everybody is sharing in this 'economic boom', despite the fact that the Federal Reserve is going so far as to boost interest rates. What use is a techie in > a town that grows corn?

Genetically engineered corn crops Just kidding. > What is life like in Los Angeles, especially as it pertains to living

I don't know. I really wouldn't recommend it. I had a chance to visit it back in February, and found there to be lots of smog, traffic, suburban sprawl, not to mention it was very busy. But then again, I never really saw the whole city, so that is a biased judgment on my part. > To anyone willing to help this lost soul find his heart, I thank you.

Hope this post helps. All I can say is that I really feel for you, and I hate to see you down like this. I really enjoyed your posts in the past, and I hope you bounce back and continue to enjoy life like you did before! Steve -- "God pours contempt on nobles and disarms the [corporate elite]." – Job 12:21 Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

BLAME SOCIETY

admin — Mon, 28 Feb 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

In article , Eric Pepke wrote: > Have you given up zealotry?

In the sense of raging against the corporate machine, yes. Although I am still convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that corporate power exists, and there is a hidden establishment that is sick in our society – I feel that I am not called to militate directly against it (i.e. be a zealot), but rather to focus on a more PRINCIPLE-centred, problem-solving approach to working towards a more healthy society. Based on some of the reading I did, I find my views resonate most with the authors of "Your Money or Your Life" and the author of "Timelock: How Life Got so Hectic and What You Can Do About it". The predominant view behind these authors is that of a "what can be done to solve the problem" and a less "us vs. them" reactive approach. As an example, consider voluntary simplicity. Hardly a radical act by any means – it simply involves keeping one’s consumption in check, and focusing on social and environmental awareness. In other words, learning how to consume responsibly. By doing this, it benefits the planet and helps form community, something which we are all seriously starving for. The principles behind this lifestlye include sustainability, balance, wholeness, and integrity. Now, one can argue that simple living can be used as a vehicle of militation and/or doing an end run against the powerful – "I’ll show ‘em corporate bastards what a bunch of sham they are, and hit ‘em where it hurts". However, this misses the point entirely of making a pro-active choice, and taking responsibility. By raging against the machine, or having that zealous mindset, it focuses energy on the enemy, thus it is a reactive approach. It’s not genuinely free and authentic, because zealotry is essentially counter-dependent. Also, in conjunction with my faith, this is not exactly appropriate Christian behavior – i.e. although the corporate elite may have initiated a strike, retaliating or fighting back is two wrongs not making a right. In other words, it has to do with ‘turning the other cheek’. So, as a long-winded answer, I’ve given up zealotry and am moving on towards a more principle-centred and practical / applied approach to this perspective. — "God pours contempt on nobles and disarms the mighty." – Job 12:21 Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

Its just so complicated to try to relate to all of this shyness thing.I told a couple of the friends in the days when I used to have friends that I couldn’t see myself ever getting married and that I would end up alone and they came up with all the usual crap that it would just sort of happen one day.Wrong.Well it happened to them but not me.But is this just negative thinking,lurking in my head from an early age stopping me being normal,not allowing anything good to happen? No I dont think it is.From all the evidence I can find over the last ten years I think its alot more than that.Everything points to the fact that normal people,especially kids and teenagers hate anyone different. This includes fat kids,ugly kids,kids with glasses,clever kids but also shy or quiet kids so from about 5 years old I learnt that most of the other kids didnt like me,thought I was weird and avoided me.Basically this meant that I was traumatised and withdrew even more and was no better 11 years later when I left school(went college for 2 days but couldn’t face 2 more years of lonliness) All this means that shy people feel that they are fighting against the world from an early age and become outsiders never one of the hip trendy kids in their gangs,liked by everyone,living a normal life. I guess what I’am just trying to say is that society blames shy people for not going out or forcing themselves to do things but really if you act nervous you get treated like shit ,so THATS THE REASON YOU DONT GO OUT.Most people arn’t understanding.They laugh at you.Now someone explain how you get over that? Bye and good luck

Response:

Hi This is not an unusual experience at all that you are relating. I don’t know if one does get totally over it, but one can grow beyond the worst of it. There has been a lot of advice on that posted here, some good, some not so good, some downright horrible. You will have to sift through it. Look for stuff that conveys optimism while not being naive about the negatives in society or in life. Also remember that there is no magic method, but it involves stuff in you. Yes, society has had much to do with how you feel, but it is still YOU has a certain view of things, and that view has to change to one inspiring confidence (but not a blind confidence that shoves stuff under the rug). Sometimes it is a lonely thing, persistence in overcoming this when people treat you badly and are unsupportive. But then sometimes the poisonous imagination, often fueled by the past, is at work too, convincing you that everyone is out to get you or is against you, even when and where it is not so. Learn to recognize this when it happens. It is a tool that you will need, this ability to recognize when your imagination is interpreting events or forecasting doom. Then again sometimes it’s real. There are times. That’s when you need a pep talk. I don’t have all the answers either. Not making that claim. But those are a couple things. Tom

Response:

Yes it is society’s fault and I hope the end of human existence is truly apon us

Response:

Soul Surgeon (SoulSurg…@webtv.net) wrote:

: Yes it is society’s fault and I hope the end of human existence is truly : apon us I couldn’t help but read this thread with interest – and as someone who used to be a ‘zealot’ (well, not exactly, but my views were heading in that direction) I am quite familiar with the ‘blame society’ arguments. On the one hand, there’s no denying that we live in a society of conflict. I am convinced that corporate power is real, and an establishment is present which benefits the elite, at the expense of those marginalized. I.e. there is huge disparity between the rich and the poor: while CEOs make over millions of dollars in annual salaires, there are people living in third world countries making less than a dollar a day. Including a family whom I and 15 others served a couple of weeks back in Mexcio – just 15 miles from the U.S. border!!!!!! And, of course there are issues of sweatshop labor where capital is supposedly "cheaper" overseas. But on the other hand, such disparity and unfairness is nothing new – and all throughout history we have seen the presence of powerful establishments fueled by marginalized people. This, to me, suggests the problem lies more in human nature, specifically a fallen human nature. What I’ve learned is that two wrongs don’t make a right. I.e. if evil exists, then rebelling against it, or ‘raging against the machine’ is fighting evil with evil. And it doesn’t solve the problem – because we’ve time and time again we’ve seen in human history. When one evil empire does eventually collapse, it doesn’t take long for another one to arise. Thus, rebelling against society, although seemingly justified because the evil was initiated first, may solve the problem temporarily, but not in the long term. Because of our fallen human nature, we’re bound to screw it up somehow. I suppose I’m arguing for grace and forgiveness more than anything else. As in, I think it’s important to make changes to society, and to do what we can do make the world a more livable place – I’m doing this with my involvement in social justice and simple living / voluntary simplicity causes. But, such changes need to be done out of genuine love and compassion. Not to say they are ‘peaceful’, after all even the most simple opposition to the corporate elite will surely involve confrontations with the poweful, but the motivations need to be out of love. Because, in the end, we’re all flawed, and the way I look at it is that while I utterly detest corporate power and what it has done to society and the environment – there is also a power craving part in myself, so in some ways my ‘Macheovieli’ may be projected onto what I detest. Thus, I think it’s best to forgive myself and others too.

Response:

On 29 Feb 2000, Steve Ruelle wrote: > I couldn’t help but read this thread with interest – and as someone who > used to be a ‘zealot’ (well, not exactly, but my views were heading in > that direction) I am quite familiar with the ‘blame society’ arguments.

Have you given up zealotry? -Eric "It’s actually kind of fun to do the impossible." -Walt Disney

Response:

> Soul Surgeon wrote: > : I dont think ALL of civilization will fall apart, maybe Western > : Civilization but most of the rest of the world is not as dependent on > : oil as we are. > But we feed them,

Do we really? > and of course, our agriculture depends heavily on the > black fuel.

– For info about this service, see http://www.twwells.com/anon/ or e-mail: h…@anon.twwells.com — for an automatically returned help message ad…@anon.twwells.com – for the service’s administrator ano…@anon.twwells.com — anonymous mail to the administrator

Response:

Soul Surgeon wrote:

: I dont think ALL of civilization will fall apart, maybe Western : Civilization but most of the rest of the world is not as dependent on : oil as we are. But we feed them, and of course, our agriculture depends heavily on the black fuel. BTW, have you visited the frugal newsgroup lately? — CAUTION: Email Spam Killer in use. Leave this line in your reply! 152680 First Law of Economics: You can’t sell product to people without money. 4968238 bytes of spam mail deleted. http://www.wwa.com/~nospam/

Response:

Bloody Viking wrote I dont think ALL of civilization will fall apart, maybe Western Civilization but most of the rest of the world is not as dependent on oil as we are.

Response:

"jack" wrote: …(snipped out whole interesting thing)… >I guess what I’am just trying to say is that society >blames shy people for not going out or forcing themselves >to do things but really if you act nervous you get treated >like shit ,so THATS THE REASON YOU DONT GO OUT.Most people >arn’t understanding.They laugh at you.Now someone explain >how you get over that?

I totally know what you mean. People are unfair. And then some jackass tells you to "get over it". The hell with that, man, I really want to look better, feel better, and make EVERYONE understand where I’m coming from. But NO ONE understands. And people STILL treat you like shit, even if you are trying to act "normal". At least that’s what I would have said a year ago. I’ll tell you – once you figure out how to say "enough is enough, fuck what the world thinks, all that matters is me me me", and devote yourself to looking for happiness instead of waiting for understanding, everything falls into place. It’s hard for me to say that and for you to believe it, but it’s possible. No one can teach you how to do that, you just have to figure it out, and it IS tough to figure out. I remember years ago.. I’m filipino and I was getting into a filipino club at college because I wanted to try and meet people and get out of shyness, etc.. so why not go to a place where at least I won’t run into race problems? I totally was trying to be nice and make conversation and all, but lots of the meetings people would shrug me off. I wasn’t acting shy and I wasn’t some outsider, I was one of THEM goddammit, and they still give me the cold shoulder. What the fuck? And they all seemed to meet and then get together, but if I tried to be all nice and talk, try to get in on the group, they’d either look away or act all nice for a second and then turn away and ignore me. A couple people acted nice to me, but no way would anyone really want to even hang with me or whatnot. So I was a shy loner and even in my own kind I was treated like toxic waste. How shitty is that? My ass was actually TRYING to make conversation, trying to be social, and this is how it works out? I look back on this and think with the wisdom I have now… what really happened? Maybe I acted wrong. But you know what – I still don’t feel any different about that situation. Yes, they were assholes and so are many other people, but you don’t have to take it. I don’t anymore. I almost died from depression, I don’t have the time or energy to care about shit like that anymore. All I should care about are me and anyone who respects me. I told myself over and over "everyone else’s opinions don’t matter" until I believed it. And you know what? Most people in the world, even non- shy people, haven’t figured that out yet. But once you do, even halfway believing that takes a load off. No, I don’t blame society for my shyness, that’s my boat. But society can be cruel if you are. Don’t wait up for jackasses to respect you, look for people who will treat you right and surround yourself with them. I believe this to be one of the many ways to curing it. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

Soul Surgeon wrote:

: Yes it is society’s fault and I hope the end of human existence is truly : apon us You could get your wish if civilisation falls apart after global oil production maxes out! If you want a rather grisly site about this, this eco-doom site is hard to beat: http://www.dieoff.com — CAUTION: Email Spam Killer in use. Leave this line in your reply! 152680 First Law of Economics: You can’t sell product to people without money. 4968238 bytes of spam mail deleted. http://www.wwa.com/~nospam/

Response:

Changing Society & Success Story

admin — Sun, 14 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

frolf18 wrote: > Can you at least be consistent in your beliefs and words?

Well, I certainly try, and believe I made every effort to do so in the original post. My point is that in order to challenge the consumer society, we need the necessary material resources (and others, i.e. communications skills, technical skills, teamwork, etc.) in order to do so. In the case of the conference I went to, the video-link (via web-streaming) was extremely effective, as it allowed groups of people all across the United States in order to join together and participate in the ‘Your Money or Your Life’ conference. Unfortunately, in Canada the movement towards voluntary simplicity isn’t as widespread in the U.S., this may be due to: – not as much urgent need to do something about social and environmental problems, as we are currently faring a little better than the U.S. in this department (Universal Health Care being the best example) – not as much knowledge and cross-country communication as which currently exists in the U.S. in order to facilitate these beliefs across a wide audience – not as many people taking iniative on the problem. Of which several of the people I met encouraged me to start a study circle in Canada, and organize it well! (since I have fairly good organizational skills) > It seems you appreciate corporate products if they advance > your beliefs, but the identical items are evil when not used > by yourself.

I’m in no way denying the value and effectiveness of material resources, I am simply questioning the extent to which we are currently dependent on them in this culture. I think it’s important to promote a more sustainable way of life, in which the old can be mixed with the new. Steve

Response:

Very empowering day I had today!!. Went down to Seattle to participate in a video internet-streamline conference on voluntary simplicity – hosted by Vicki Robin (co-writer of ‘Your Money or Your Life’). The conference was hooked up via video- feed in a classroom of a community college on E. Olive St. for anyone familiar with the area. There were hundreds of feed sites all across the U.S., unfortunately nobody initiated any sites in Canada, which was why I had to go to Seattle! All in all there were about 40 of us participating in the program, and I got a chance to meet some very interesting people there, who share similar values as in the simple living and low consumption posts that I write about here. I was delighted as to the warm welcome I received from those coordinating the program, as they got the word that I had come down from Canada – and many were quite impressed. The atmosphere at the meeting was one of tolerance, respect, light- heartedness, and a genuine sense of social concern, both for each other, and for the society at large. I found it incredibly easy to be myself, talk to people, participate in discussions, etc. Also, the meeting was organized incredibly well, and it went without a hitch. Opportunities were made to get to know each others, book resources were listed, as well each of our names was on a roster with phone #, e-mail address, etc. Shyness was really not much of an issue there for me at all. I find that when I’m in a group of caring and loving people, there’s really no reason to be shy. This totally applies to various community-based situations I’ve put myself in. On the flip side, I feel the most uncomfortable in functional, mercantile, and otherwise productivity-oriented social situations. During the break, I got a chance to meet David Heitmiller and Jacqueline Blix, authors of the book "Getting a Life" – they are the same couple who included their monthly expenses tabulation in the book, which I cited for JerryO in the beginning of the ‘Simple Living’ thread. David was telling me about how he used to spend years working his butt off in the corporate world (he used to work for AT & T) and then came to his senses and opted for a more sane and balanced lifestyle. He was also mentioning about starting financial planning programs to help young people (like me) who are struggling with the FI program – in a sense, it’s a form of giving advice by the ‘old pros’ who have already attained FI. Also, I talked to the person in charge of the Speaker’s Bureau, and expressed interest for doing speeches on voluntary simplicity – putting into practice what I’ve learned in Toastmasters. On a related note, my most recent Toastmasters speech was on voluntary simplicity (I used some quotes from ‘Your Money’) and people came up to me afterwards and said it was the best speech they’ve seen so far. I’d have to agree – in that I felt passionate about the topic, and thus I appeared less nervous, used more eye contact, and more gestures. As for the Speaker’s Bureau, I definitely qualify, as I’ve been working with the ‘Your Money’ program for at least six months, plus I have some public speaking skills under my belt. The person in charge will send me an application form asap. Most likely, I’ll be making more trips down to the States to do these speeches, or get involved in further events with some of the contacts I’ve made down there – but also I want to try and get something going further in Vancouver. There have been simple living programs in my area, but the organization hasn’t been the greatest, and the meetings have been very infrequent at best. Perhaps I may get involved in boosting the interest for simple living in Vancouver. I am quite surprised, as were many of the people I talked to, why Canada isn’t miles ahead of the U.S. on these social awareness issues. Maybe it’s because the social and economic injustice problems aren’t nearly as bad in Canada as they are in the States, thus the urgent need for awareness and solutions is much more pressing south of the border. Whereas in Canada, we may still be relatively less influenced by the corporatocracy, and hence our quality of life is considerably better. But, still, it can’t be underscored just how much the need for increased social and environmental awareness is, and for more sustainable lifestyles, for both countries. Canada is becoming increasingly under corporate control, and this means that Canada also needs to think about solutions to corporatocracy-based problems as well. Also, I realized to my delight, that the Media Foundation (http://www.adbusters.org) is located right in Vancouver, and this would be a prime organization for me to look into further and get involved with. People at the Seattle meeting today recommended I do this, as that organization would love to have someone like me there (Hey, they said it, not me!) I think, most importantly, what I learned today was the danger of using these issues for selfish reasons, i.e. adopting a "sane island in an insane world" which has remarkable parallels of warning to the practice of staying in safe churches and Christian groups instead of going out in the world and confronting the evils there. What’s important, is that by adopting the practice of voluntary simplicity, it’s not a sign of moralizing, i.e. "Hey listen! You better do this!" and other ‘us vs them’ thinking which I know I’ve been guilty of in past debates here. But rather, it’s making changes that benefit the whole of society and the planet, realizing that we ALL share it. The host of the program said it best that we really need to understand why our society is sick, and find ways to help cure the problems, i.e. we really need to understand the underlying social structures involved, and come up with a plan to make changes, rather than just point the finger and criticize society. I think that a lot of our society’s sickness has to do with the following components: – bully dynamics. The society operates like a synergistic bully, that seeks to stomp on others to encourage excess competition, getting ahead, and creating a jungle atmosphere, as well as manipulating and mind-fucking those victims in the process. – economism. This is the belief of worshiping the economy like as if it were God – putting complete faith and trust in market forces, and living, breathing, and dying in the economy. This goes hand in hand with consumerism and jobism. – along with economism, is the perceptual reversal from how the economy actually works as a subset of the natural ecology, to viewing those natural resources as a subset of the economy. I’ve had debates with economists about this, and they are in deep, deep, deep, really deep denial about these issues. They seriously believe that the economic forces supercede natural resources. – the conflation of democracy with capitalism. – a lost soul. As a culture, we’ve lost our true meaning in life. Instead we look for the accumulation of wealth, success, and prestige to fill that gap. I think solutions to the problem are far from simple, but involve a combination of antidotes to which was just described. First and foremost is the process of awareness, so that individuals may question the current values of society, and seek to create new values. Along with this, the economic power mongrels in our culture who trample us with the sick memes I just highlighted will need to be seriously confronted, and this may take some time. I just learned today that powerful for-profit corporations often end up taking over socially and environmentally aware corporations, simply because the latter are less economically powerful. Those who are the most powerful economically, however, are the weakest in spirit, and this is perhaps the crux of the problem, and solutions to it. Also, solutions must be practical as well as ‘idealized’. This includes concrete economic, social, and environmental steps taken to reduce one’s level of consumption on a day-to-day basis. This also includes participating in community affairs, influencing others, and finding ways to get involved in environmental restoration and advocacy. It is also key to recognize that it is for the good of society and the planet, not an elitist movement. We talk a lot about personal changework on this newsgroup, but I think that social changework is just as, if not more important. — "Power is not first, but justice is first in society and law." – Francis A. Schaeffer, "A Christian Manifesto" Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

> The conference was hooked up via video- > feed in a classroom of a community college on E. Olive St. for > anyone familiar with the area. There were hundreds of feed sites all > across the U.S., unfortunately nobody initiated any sites in Canada, > which was why I had to go to Seattle!

Video-conferencing a feed across the US. Thats pretty much the definition of living simple. > Whereas in Canada, we may still be relatively less > influenced by the corporatocracy, and hence our quality of life is > considerably better. But, still, it can’t be underscored just how > much the need for increased social and environmental awareness is, and > for more sustainable lifestyles, for both countries. Canada is > becoming increasingly under corporate control, and this means that > > Canada also > needs to think about solutions to corporatocracy-based problems as > well.

Ok, earlier in the post you wished for video-conferencing across Canada, yet now you proudly claim Canada isn’t as influenced by the Corporatocracy. Geez. Video-conferencing is definately a corporate child. Can you at least be consistent in your beliefs and words? It seems you appreciate corporate products if they advance your beliefs, but the identical items are evil when not used by yourself. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Setting a pace

admin — Wed, 28 May 1997 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Hi, My thought is set the beat of a different drummer. Just say "fuck you" to society because everyone in here is somehow an outcast to society, we have learned to do our own thing and so can you. Feeling a little fiesty, Lauren

yeah….let em have it! *clapclapclap* and can i add a piece of my own? well i think that everyone here is also much stronger because we are still here, still plodding on through the sh*t… and a lot of us are even able to pull ourselves through life absolutely alone. now that is what i call "strengh of character". *** fiona. ____/| o.O| =(_)= U — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

Response:

One problem with being depressed is the damand placed on the effected to march to the beat of societies drummer and not your own. Many times I wish I could get into my confort zone of living, which involves doing things a a slower pace, but It seems to be discouraged by everyone. iS IT BECAUSE IT’S unhealthy? Does slowing down and taking it easy mean that you are giving into depression; not a good thing to do, or is it because we as a society have certain expectation levels to function at, and anything less would be unacceptable? John

Don’t want to be short, but it depends on if you were maybe going too fast in the first place. I got out of the fast lane, I downsized (got rid of a lot of material things, including my car) and am simplifying as much as possible (they used to call it Voluntary Simplicity). I went through a period where I found that I was spinning my wheels – but had no goals or objectives. Good Luck. Andre —

Response:

I favour time measured in seasons rather than nanoseconds myself,

bravo!!!!

Response:

One problem with being depressed is the damand placed on the effected to march to the beat of societies drummer and not your own.

That’s not only an affliction of the depressed – it happens to everyone. Many times I wish I could get into my confort zone of living, which involves doing things a a slower pace, but It seems to be discouraged by everyone. iS IT BECAUSE IT’S unhealthy?

How many slow, relaxed people do you know that have ulcers? Does slowing down and taking it easy mean that you are giving into depression;

No mon… It means you are running your life, not someone else… not a good thing to do, or is it because we as a society have certain expectation levels to function at, and anything less would be unacceptable?

That’s a great philosophical debate. It seems to me the more "labour saving" devices we have, the more we have to labour (More is expected of us, and we have to get the money to buy the next "neat toy" that comes along.) There is no real concrete answer… I favour time measured in seasons rather than nanoseconds myself, but I also have to make my way in society as well… Good luck! – Bruce. — For more information about this service, send e-mail to: