Denied access to knowledge … <whinge> <rant>

Question:

Not to be picky, but unless your a post grad student, how did you intend to read them? If they are as old as claimed, or of a religious nature, I doubt very much that they would be in English. Valid point … I was going to find out if they were in English or not and go from there .. I know someone who would be able and willing to translate anything in Celtic for me and a friend of mine speaks Latin as well as most other languages with a frighteningly native grasp … Anything in English I could of course read myself!

I have tried to stay out of this discussion, but I have to respond to this. <rant<lecture Depending on the age of the document, you probably COULD NOT read it, and unless your friends are student of archaic languages, neither could they. As an example: A lot of people today have trouble reading Middle or Elizabethan English (although, maybe you are one of the lucky ones, like me, for whom this isn’t true), so how much more trouble are they and YOU going to have trying to read Old English. You know, the "common" language of England at the time of the writing of such epics as Beowulf. I’m sorry, but the ability to read a modern day language does NOT automatically give one the ability to read the ancient and/or archaic forms of that language. And the Latin of the Middle Ages is most certainly NOT the Latin of Pliny and Homer. </lecture</rant — Captain Wolf Catholic(kinda, sorta) Bard ** Please hold. All muses are busy right now, ** ** but your inspiration is important to us… ** ** If I knew who to credit I would **

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Depending on the age of the document, you probably COULD NOT read it, and unless your friends are student of archaic languages, neither could they.

It’s a little presumptious to jump to conclusions (however slight) about the knowledge of people you don’t know .. the person in question is a druid with knowledge of the old celtic languages and if she can’t translate something herself she is in touch with many people more knowledgeable than her who could .. there is always someone you know who knows more than you, who knows someone who knows more than them .. this is how knowledge is passed on and shared for the greater benefit of all. And the issue was not whether *I* could read it, but whether I could _access_ it, through which I could find the meaning of anything I found I needed to know or directly pertaining to that which I am researching. English (although, maybe you are one of the lucky ones, like me, for whom this isn’t true),

I read as I answer posts, sometimes it’s instinctual and comes from an inner part of me and sometimes I don’t know what I’m talking about, and sometimes I rely on conscious knowledge, but either way it usually serves me well. I’m sorry, but the ability to read a modern day language does NOT automatically give one the ability to read the ancient and/or archaic forms of that language.

But one still has ones intuition – which is what has led me so far to always find people to teach me and lead me along the right path so far and lead me to the knowledge I ‘need’ most. I am sure if there was a part I couldn’t understand but ‘felt’ important I could have someone translate it and find it’s meaning … it may sound illogical and childish to you but that is the way I do things, I have never found anyone to teach me what I need to know so intuition has led me, for better or worse, usually better, so that is what I trust in, over intellect. Cerridwen

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Has anyone else noticed the large amount of texts and books on elements of the craft or ancient mythologies purloined and stashed well away from public view by private libraries? It’s something that had never come to mind before, but upon visiting The British Library with the intention of raiding their Celtic magic/mythology section for a bout of mass photocopying and study I was told I was not allowed to apply for membership or have any access to their books unless I’m studying for post-grad!

If you can get someone like a proffesor to stand for you, you might well get access, the reason the books are restricted in Places like the Brit library, is that people were stealing them, fundimentalists were destroying pages and books they didnt agree with, a lot of the books are terribly fragile, and literally would crumble away. post grads and registered researchers are taught how to use such books, or should be , . they sign them out to read in the library itself the books are never removed from such libraries, , and the books are inspected after their use if the books are damaged they are aware who caused such damage. some of them would have fallen to bits by now if the general public were allowed to read them, I agree all information should be public, I would like to see such books copied so they are available to everyone without the chance of loss, destruction or theft. even better if they could be on the internet. the originals which are irreplacable cant be on general use. its often not to deny you the information but simply to save the books themselves from destruction, that they are limited to such few people. Some of those books are so beautifull that they are thrilling just to hold and touch, even the touch of fingers the oils and perspiration on the skin would damage the more delicate books, each page has to be lifted with a tool, and with great care and delicacy. their fragility is frightening even photography with a flash or photocopying would cause damage. though they have come up with a photography teqhnique now that needs nothing more than normal light, it would take years to get all that information copied. Librarians often dont explain this to the general public, they can be very protective of these books, and for good reason, but if they explained why, then I think most people could accept the restrictions, some of the books in the Brit museum, even post grads cant touch, they are to delicate. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I had never realised that the libraries that hold the most ancient and informative text on many of the things that interest me (and probably the rest of the general public) are hidden away in private collections by bodies such as the British Library well away from the people who IMHO, really _need_ access to them …materials pertaining to the Craft obviously being of more use to those that practise it, no? This strikes me as slightly unfair! Knowledge should be something available to everyone and not just those favoured by the persons in possession of it …. So, after wandering half way across London in the baking summer heat to find it’s all been a wasted journey I’m of a good mind to get a post grad to borrow the largest book in the library and start beating someone rhythmically over the head with it until they utter the sweet "yes, you can read our books" phrase … but on a slightly less excessive note a petition and a few well placed letters of complaint may be more logical … has anyone got any opinions on the best way of going about this .. who is the highest authority to complain to etc … I’m convinced _something_ should be done .. this really is a most unsatisfactory state of affairs. Cerridwen

– The ‘Old Craft’ lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/shez/

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The Catholic Church requires confession to a priest, a mediator between God and man.

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. — Doug Gilliland Calvary Chapel FUAQ Page http://idt.net/~dougg/cc.htm Luke 7:35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [...] that fall apart as soon as one merely glances at them (I even own some old books myself, though they aren’t quite *that* ancient), it saddens me that they aren’t made available to interested people through other means, like microfiche, or "master copies" that people can use for their own reading and photocopying instead of the fragile original. I mean, the idea can’t be that exotic – in most of the classes I’m taking the lecturers don’t want hordes of students to leaf through their private book collection, but they don’t want to deprive us from the accumulated knowledge either, so they put one or two photocopied versions of the book(s) in question into the department’s "books to read this term" shelf. Surely people at places like the British Library could do something similar? (Their budget can’t be much smaller than the average university’s. Gee, I *hope* it’s not smaller. But then again, nothing can possibly be *that* small, can it? CU, Julia (who also knows some post-grads whom she wouldn’t let handle *her* old books with their grubby little fingers, thank you very much)

Several people on this thread have had excellent ideas about how to make the content of these old materials available: micro-technologies like fiche and film, scanning to digital, etc. Most librarians, planet wide, would love to be able to afford to retrospectively convert vulnerable text to make it available (photocopying isn’t free and you easily run afoul of US copyright laws doing more than a chapter or two.) But we can’t do these things without money–most public and academic libraries have taken serious budget hits in the last decade or so while the cost of things like journals has risen 12% per annum (several times the inflation rate of most industrialized nations at the moment.) Buying new books and journal subscriptions is threatened, let alone converting what you’ve already purchased or things that can’t be replaced. It’s the reality librarians live with. Most older institutions can’t even afford to retrospectively catalog old materials… i.e. list them on the new, nifty, electronic library catalogs. Converting tens of millions of older titles to digital or fiche is on the list behind that chore. The multi-million dollar budget in my uni-library barely keeps the doors open and lights on after the acquisition bills are paid. To convert our older materials–nothing but labor-intensive work–would eat the entire campus’s budget for years. Maybe we should be organizing ourselves to find funds for limited conversion projects? Salt MLS

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Hello!

[snip snip] : Not to be picky, but unless your a post grad student, how did you intend to : read them? If they are as old as claimed, or of a religious nature, I doubt very : much that they would be in English. : : MP, : Laren : : many are in old English. which is possible to read but difficult, : grammer and spelling were nothing like it is today. perhaps being : dsylexic helped, This is so true! I’m not dyslexic, but I’ve had similar experiences with languages I’m not a native speaker of. For some reason (probably because we make lots of mistakes "normal" people don’t make) we have a much higher tolerance for "mistakes" – these can be real spelling or grammatical errors or nonstandard (older or dialectal) forms. So, for example, a German native speaker (who doesn’t happen to be a linguist) will look at an Old High German text and, finding that s/he can’t read it fluently, say something like "That’s supposed to be German? Why can’t I read it, then?" and put it away. An advanced learner is more likely to say, "Hmm, interesting words/inflection/whatever" and keep reading (or at least try). I’m learning Finnish, and Finns are often surprised to find that I’m actually reading (at a really, really slow pace, though) the Kalevala (the Finnish national epic, written in a quite, shall we say, colorful and sort of exotic dialect). Well, to them it’s something that’s supposed to be Finnish but can’t be easily understood; to me understanding only half of a Finnish text (and encountering words and phrases I wouldn’t consider "normal" or "sensible") is quite normal… after all, most of *my* Finnish probably wouldn’t be considered "normal" or "sensible" by anyone except (probably) other Germans learning Finnish… so to me the Kalevala is just another Finnish text. I probably don’t even notice most of the nonstandard forms that slow down native speakers, since I’m far from knowing all the rules of Finnish grammar… and I don’t notice many of the older or dialectal words Finns have to look up either, because I have to look up many words anyway. CU, Julia — Julia Simon Hypp"a"aj"at"ar Sprachen-Freak vom Dienst snailmail: Akanapolku 2 L 401, 01370 Vantaa, Finland homepage: http://www.lingsoft.fi/~simon Where linguists gather, madness abounds ( – the story of my life)

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snip much that they would be in English. MP, Laren Again, in this country, we still have the (end of) age of the learned amateur!

Its a great pity that age of amatuer study is ending, but to be fair, it was mostly the middle class, and upper classes who had the time ,money and patience to do all that study. Slowly but surely this is being eroded, but there are still a number of experts in such fields with a great deal of knowledge, and few if any passing).

Some of them are accepted in Schollarly circles because of that knowledge, but they are not accorded the same respect they once had. these days without letters behind your name, your not considered to be a Schollar. — The ‘Old Craft’ lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/shez/

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <SNIP not to deny you the information but simply to save the books themselves from destruction, that they are limited to such few people. I know, I just find it irritating that they don’t think my being interested in my beliefs is a good enough excuse for me to read their books, yet post grads are allowed pretty much unrestricted access Cerridwen Not to be picky, but unless your a post grad student, how did you intend to read them? If they are as old as claimed, or of a religious nature, I doubt very much that they would be in English. MP, Laren

many are in old English. which is possible to read but difficult, grammer and spelling were nothing like it is today. perhaps being dsylexic helped, most of it made more sense than modern English which is very clipped in comparison. mostly the changes were obviouse, like using F for an S. some are in Latin, and I was never very good at latin, Some french and german, if your willing to persist, you can translate. — The ‘Old Craft’ lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/shez/

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Again, in this country, we still have the (end of) age of the learned amateur! Slowly but surely this is being eroded, but there are still a number of experts in such fields with a great deal of knowledge, and few if any passing). — janet Time bears away all things, even the mind…. Virgil

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<SNIP not to deny you the information but simply to save the books themselves from destruction, that they are limited to such few people. I know, I just find it irritating that they don’t think my being interested in my beliefs is a good enough excuse for me to read their books, yet post grads are allowed pretty much unrestricted access Cerridwen

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Hello!

: <SNIP : not to deny you the information but simply to save the books themselves : from destruction, that they are limited to such few people. : : I know, I just find it irritating that they don’t think my being : interested in my beliefs is a good enough excuse for me to read their : books, yet post grads are allowed pretty much unrestricted access : Not to be picky, but unless your a post grad student, how did you intend to : read them? If they are as old as claimed, or of a religious nature, I doubt very : much that they would be in English. <turns up nose You know, there are those of us who learned things like Latin in high school. Not to mention those who never went to university (or those who did, but with a totally unrelated subject, say molecular biology) and went through the pains of learning to read an ancient language they were interested in through self-study… Not wanting to brag; but I, for example, am not a post-grad (nor will I be anytime soon at my current pace ; yet I took 6 years of Latin at school (and try to keep somewhat fluent), and I used to have a working knowledge of Sanskrit (very rusty nowadays, alas) and can kind of read Old High German and, because of my knowledge of Latin, also older versions of French and Italian. (Give me a dictionary, and I can more than just "kind of" read them.) I’m also hoping to learn Old Norse through osmosis (i.e. spelling my way through Eddas and sagas and trying to make sense of what I read with the help of my German, my Swedish, and a Modern Icelandic grammar book). manuscrips that fall apart as soon as one merely glances at them (I even own some old books myself, though they aren’t quite *that* ancient), it saddens me that they aren’t made available to interested people through other means, like microfiche, or "master copies" that people can use for their own reading and photocopying instead of the fragile original. I mean, the idea can’t be that exotic – in most of the classes I’m taking the lecturers don’t want hordes of students to leaf through their private book collection, but they don’t want to deprive us from the accumulated knowledge either, so they put one or two photocopied versions of the book(s) in question into the department’s "books to read this term" shelf. Surely people at places like the British Library could do something similar? (Their budget can’t be much smaller than the average university’s. Gee, I *hope* it’s not smaller. But then again, nothing can possibly be *that* small, can it? CU, Julia (who also knows some post-grads whom she wouldn’t let handle *her* old books with their grubby little fingers, thank you very much) — Julia Simon Hypp"a"aj"at"ar Sprachen-Freak vom Dienst snailmail: Akanapolku 2 L 401, 01370 Vantaa, Finland homepage: http://www.lingsoft.fi/~simon Where linguists gather, madness abounds ( – the story of my life)

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If you can get someone like a proffesor to stand for you, How many people can find a professor to stand for them? Not everyone has such influential friends, and I think _everyone_ should be allowed access to knowledge .. meybe not to the books themselves, but certainly to the knowledge they contain.

I agree I am the last person the argue that knowlage should not be available, but those books and manuscripts are so terribly frail, a breath can damage them. would you have everyone who wanted to, able to access those books they would be destroyed in a week or less they are not library books. I beleive that the access should be available through the internet or copies of those books and manuscripts. the original material is not capable of withstanding such use. get access, the reason the books are restricted in Places like the Brit library, is that people were stealing them, fundimentalists were Fair enough, but it is possible to become a member … just not unless you’re a post grad or have friends in high places, etc …

Not realy you do have to be doing some sort of proffesional research, but you could ask for copies of such books if you know what you want to look at. if you are a published author you would find them more ammenable, a lot of the books are terribly fragile, and literally would crumble away. They could always copy the books and make them more widely available that way …

Yes they can , but they are not talking about a few books they are talking about thousands upon thousands of books, and normal photo or scanning damages them terribly, they have found a way to copy that dousnt damage, but it is slow, its going to take years of work to copy everything. removed from such libraries, , and the books are inspected after their use if the books are damaged they are aware who caused such damage. In that case they shouldn’t have a problem with _anyone_ using them .. if they inspect the books afterwards any damage would be recognised and they could deal with it as they seen fit.. I have a deep respect for books and certainly wouldn’t be causing any damage.

No I am sure you would not damage a book. , but some people would, which is why such books are kept for the use of people who know how to handle them without causing further damage. could you take a course on how to handle such books, and then approach them, I think if you proved you were safe to handle such books it would be easier. although they might know who caused the damage to a book, they can charge the cost of repair if its repairable, and ban that member from the library. but it dousnt put right the damage already done, some of it is not capable of being repaired. I think you would find most of the texts available, are both difficult to read and badly faded, often you could only find a few words that were readable, inks fade, vellum and parchment and skins fade and crack not to deny you the information but simply to save the books themselves from destruction, that they are limited to such few people. I know, I just find it irritating that they don’t think my being interested in my beliefs is a good enough excuse for me to read their books, yet post grads are allowed pretty much unrestricted access

No they are not Cerridwen, the realy fragile books they cant touch, and their are sections that they are not allowed in either, its not a free for all, in the older books, and manuscripts each book has to be requested, and brought to you, if its to frail then you simply cant have it, post grad or not. untill its copied the only people who would see it are the repair and conservation people. it can be preety frustrating even for a post grad beleive me. I do honestly understand your frustration, but its not meant to annoy people, its meant to conserve what is perhaps the only copy of the book or script some of the books are so old they are simply single pages of vellum in a wood cover tied with tape, or leather thongs. I think if you saw how fragile they were you would understand. Cerridwen

– The ‘Old Craft’ lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/shez/

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Most libraries with "closed collections" such as these do have a means of making them available to scholars. I wonder if the British Library has any such means, and if so why they didn’t see fot to mention them to me when I visited …

Yes, they do. The problem is probably the definition of "scholar". Sad to say that even here, where the amatuer scholar seems to have held out longest, their day is numbered in the mind of the public, it would seem. I know this may sound like a long shot, but have a look around in your area, look for WEA courses or University adult ed courses….it may take a while, but if you take one or two of those, you might just be able to get the connections you need… (There’s also always the Open University, but that’s more of a commitment than a 12 week course…). Yes, I know it shouldn’t *have* to be that way, but when dealing with reality at times…. :} There are also various scholarly groups which might be worth contacting, in particular, the Women’s History Network, (but I can’t give you an address…sorry! Don’t have one, but I can look…). in the building and, often, within sight of a librarian. No problem …

No choice, the Brit isn’t a lending library, is it? It’s not unusual for European libraries to be non-lending. Where I did my grad work, no one, NO ONE could take books out. The same went for a number of the other universities and colleges. Bletch…. try networking with a former professor from your college days I didn’t finish school, so this may be difficult …

See above…. If you can’t find a WEA class or classes in your area, email me. There’s a lot of scholarly work going on around the whole subject of historical witchcraft at the moment, though, so it might not be as hard to find something as it might seem! :) (the famous building, with the lions out front), _Real_ lions? And I thought the battleaxes at the British Library were scary …

keeps the porn in a locked cage. Kinky ;)

No, no, no, the BOOKS, not the people who want to read them! :) — janet Time bears away all things, even the mind…. Virgil

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I’m sorry, but this sounds more like a whine than a rant: << Has anyone else noticed the large amount of texts and books on elements of the craft or ancient mythologies purloined and stashed well away from public view by private libraries? …. upon visiting The British Library with the intention of raiding their Celtic magic/mythology section for a bout of mass photocopying and study I was told I was not allowed to apply for membership or have any access to their books unless I’m studying for post-grad! I had never realised that the libraries that hold the most ancient and informative text on many of the things that interest me (and probably the rest of the general public) are hidden away in private collections by bodies such as the British Library well away from the people who IMHO, really _need_ access to them In the first place, the books you’re talking about weren’t "purloined" and "hidden away" in a "private collection." They are part of the collection of a major public-owned library. In the second place, these works constitute a precious historical legacy. The *first* duty of the librarians is to protect and preserve this heritage so that it is not lost, stolen, destroyed by vandals, or damaged by people who don’t know anything about the care and handling of rare and fragile documents. I don’t know anything about you (and more to the point, neither do the librarians!), but your avowed intention to "raid" the Celtic collection for "a bout of mass photocopying" certainly raises my personal alarm flags. I can’t comment on the policies of the British Library. In the U.S., the Library of Congress has very liberal policies on access to its huge collection — though even there, rare and valuable works are carefully protected. Ideally, over the course of time, the contents of these great libraries should be made universally available in safe and durable medium like computer data files. But this is going to be a long and expensive process — with low priority in an age of tightened public spending, anti-tax activism, and paranoia about government activities in general (as revealed quite nicely by the post that began this thread). Until the happy era of universal access arrives, the most important things are (a) that the sources themselves be preserved, and (b) that reasonable access be granted to researchers, scholars, historicans and the like, so that the contents of the works can be studied, evaluated, and thus — indirectly — made available to the interested public. If you’re all that serious about this, maybe you *ought* to become a post-grad student. Real, hard-won knowledge is much less dangerous than many people in the Wiccan community realize! ;)

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Good for you. I hate it when someone steals a book or damages it. It makes me furious when this happens. Personally, if I had been the person in charge of the whole deal I would have (please excuse the pun) thrown the book at them. Love and Laughter, Stevie Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer.

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I was called to fix a computer at a local church last year. The problem was a circuit breaker, not the computer, so we wound up in the storage room. There were three boxes of books from the Hernando County library in the corner, all about things they considered ‘unchristian’. I guess they were waiting for the next bonfire party… Before you ask; yes, I did report them. They were given the option to return the books. If it had been a private citizen, he/she would have been arrested for theft, but because they were a church, somebody cut them a break. I wouldn’t have. Theft is theft. They weren’t feeding the poor with stolen books. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone else noticed the large amount of texts and books on elements of the craft or ancient mythologies purloined and stashed well away from public view by private libraries? It’s something that had never come to mind before, but upon visiting The British Library with the intention of raiding their Celtic magic/mythology section for a bout of mass photocopying and study I was told I was not allowed to apply for membership or have any access to their books unless I’m studying for post-grad! I had never realised that the libraries that hold the most ancient and informative text on many of the things that interest me (and probably the rest of the general public) are hidden away in private collections by bodies such as the British Library well away from the people who IMHO, really _need_ access to them …materials pertaining to the Craft obviously being of more use to those that practise it, no? This strikes me as slightly unfair! Knowledge should be something available to everyone and not just those favoured by the persons in possession of it …. [...]

– Wicca Works! at: http://www.atlantic.net/~wiccan/ Articles-Jewelry-Tiles-Chalices-Poetry-ClipArt-Other(!)Stuff – Four boxes to be used in defense of Liberty: Soap, Ballot, Jury, and Ammo. Use in that order.

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I’m a librarian and can, possibly, shed some light on this distressing practice for you. Theft from and damage to these collections, especially the ‘occult’; Black, Women’s, and American Indian Studies; and pornography (the New York Public Library, for one, has astounding porn holdings and a committee to select new stuff) is so frequent, that to maintain the books at all means to remove them from easy public access. If you haven’t heard yet, there is a man in Ohio who was caught defecating in any tome he didn’t like (he is conservative, Xian, and xenophobic) and then leaving the book in restrooms and such for staff and patrons to find. He is the most recent in a long list of narrow-minded people who believe that removing or damaging materials they don’t agree with makes them better people. Check out the "Library Journal" and "American Libraries" for lots of articles about damage to disputed texts and collections. Most libraries with "closed collections" such as these do have a means of making them available to scholars. Generally, you must use the materials in the building and, often, within sight of a librarian. Even these draconian measures (no insult to dragons intended) don’t always work. A trusted scholar was recenting indicted for stealing from some of the US’s most prestigious collections, including the Library of Congress. Getting in: First, you must find an academic or librarian sponsor to get you in past Conan the Librarian. Not easy, but it can be done. Call a local librarian first, tell him/her what you’re interested in reading and see if he/she can make contact for you. If that doesn’t open the door, try networking with a former professor from your college days (change sentence to present tense if you’re still in college or headed there soon) and talking to them about it. I’m sorry to say it, but my profession hasn’t come up with any better way to safeguard these materials for the future. NYPL’s main research library (the famous building, with the lions out front), keeps the porn in a locked cage. Even librarians have to have permission and a key to get to it. Don’t get discouraged. Let me know how things are going… Anne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone else noticed the large amount of texts and books on elements of the craft or ancient mythologies purloined and stashed well away from public view by private libraries? It’s something that had never come to mind before, but upon visiting The British Library with the intention of raiding their Celtic magic/mythology section for a bout of mass photocopying and study I was told I was not allowed to apply for membership or have any access to their books unless I’m studying for post-grad! I had never realised that the libraries that hold the most ancient and informative text on many of the things that interest me (and probably the rest of the general public) are hidden away in private collections by bodies such as the British Library well away from the people who IMHO, really _need_ access to them …materials pertaining to the Craft obviously being of more use to those that practise it, no? This strikes me as slightly unfair! Knowledge should be something available to everyone and not just those favoured by the persons in possession of it ….

[...]

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Janet: Isn’t the Protestant fanatics’ cycle of ragging the "Hidden Vatican Library" about due again? It usually runs about 40 year cycles.

I just want my gold back. Shadowstrider Light can only be seen relative to darkness

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(the sound you hear is grinding of teeth…. knoweldge is supposed to be for EVERYONE!) Precisely. It sickens me that so much beautiful art or great knowledge is hidden away in the collections of wealthy people/institutions and the public are denied the chance to appreciate it.

Too true…. Isn’t the Brit. one of those libraries where books can’t be taken from the premises? Yes. I only wanted to read and photocopy on the premises .. which I did explain to the very smug and self righteous woman behind the counter. She seemed to take great personal satisfaction in refusing me access

Arghghghgh….. yes, I’ve known librarians like that, back in my student days…. "Yes, we may have that book. IF we have it and IF no one else is using it, THEN you should be able to use it: I will let you know. Oh, when? Oh, not for at LEAST two hours…" If so, why the requirement of the registration for a degree? I haven’t a clue .. it smacks of discrimination.

(Don’t mind me, I work in continuing ed….). as though post-grad degree students were *necessarily* more trustworthy than the rest of the populace…). I can’t see any reason why theyb should be …

Grin…. Slightly!? British understatement, right?? :) Correct!

I’m learning! :) (WHY is it that libraries and librarians think that reading books is WRONG? What are we going to do, leave eyetracks all over them?). Hmm, I know I’m protective of my books .. people who leave coffee stains etc on them get a damn good telling off, rightly so I think. So, I can understand _that_ but still, that doesn’t make any difference to the fact post grads are allowed in and we’re not!

I have no idea…. If they don’t want valuable materials damaged they could always copy it and stick it in a reference file, then their material is safe and people still have access to the knowledge they need.

All I can think of is that they might have been things which needed careful handling… So THEY don’t have copies? Pull the other, it’s got bells on. I don’t know what to suggest, but if I think of anything, I’ll let you know! Thanks

Short of actually REGISTERING for a post grad degree, I can’t think what to do… (maybe an online, "degrees for nothing" thing? Nah….). But, hummmm… this is a case, I think, where connections will tell. Who do you know? Who do THEY know, and who do THEY know who might help? Good luck! Blessed be,. Cerridwen

– janet Time bears away all things, even the mind…. Virgil

Response:

Janet: Isn’t the Protestant fanatics’ cycle of ragging the "Hidden Vatican Library" about due again? It usually runs about 40 year cycles.

Response:

You’re lucky that you just got denied. The UC Berkeley library got rid of 12,000 books because they went computerized. And no the books are not on disk, either. The library just put the books out in bins for any one who wanted them. BTW, these are not just obscure, books, this are all kinds of books. That is so sad. Ciao, Scarlett

Response:

Has anyone else noticed the large amount of texts and books on elements of the craft or ancient mythologies purloined and stashed well away from public view by private libraries? It’s not just the craft….believe me!! Janet: Isn’t the Protestant fanatics’ cycle of ragging the "Hidden Vatican Library" about due again? It usually runs about 40 year cycles.

It’s going on in the catholic ngs as we speak, in fact! (grin….). (But I’d rather just say, "fanatic", rather than Protestant fanatic… I think that kind of thing supercedes religion, and goes into some other realm…..) :) — janet Time bears away all things, even the mind…. Virgil

Response:

Has anyone else noticed the large amount of texts and books on elements of the craft or ancient mythologies purloined and stashed well away from public view by private libraries?

It’s not just the craft….believe me!! It’s something that had never come to mind before, but upon visiting The British Library with the intention of raiding their Celtic magic/mythology section for a bout of mass photocopying and study I was told I was not allowed to apply for membership or have any access to their books unless I’m studying for post-grad!

(the sound you hear is grinding of teeth…. knoweldge is supposed to be for EVERYONE!) Isn’t the Brit. one of those libraries where books can’t be taken from the premises? If so, why the requirement of the registration for a degree? (She says, as though post-grad degree students were *necessarily* more trustworthy than the rest of the populace…). I had never realised that the libraries that hold the most ancient and informative text on many of the things that interest me (and probably the rest of the general public) are hidden away in private collections by bodies such as the British Library well away from the people who IMHO, really _need_ access to them …materials pertaining to the Craft obviously being of more use to those that practise it, no? This strikes me as slightly unfair!

Slightly!? British understatement, right?? :) Knowledge should be something available to everyone and not just those favoured by the persons in possession of it …. So, after wandering half way across London in the baking summer heat to find it’s all been a wasted journey I’m of a good mind to get a post grad to borrow the largest book in the library and start beating someone rhythmically over the head with it until they utter the sweet "yes, you can read our books" phrase …

Good luck, but there might be a better way… :) (WHY is it that libraries and librarians think that reading books is WRONG? What are we going to do, leave eyetracks all over them?). but on a slightly less excessive note a petition and a few well placed letters of complaint may be more logical … has anyone got any opinions on the best way of going about this .. who is the highest authority to complain to etc … I’m convinced _something_ should be done .. this really is a most unsatisfactory state of affairs.

I don’t know what to suggest, but if I think of anything, I’ll let you know! Cerridwen

– janet Time bears away all things, even the mind…. Virgil

Response:

I wish I could help, …but I know nothing of British rights or laws pertaining to the subject. Ask Shez, perhaps she may know. Blessings, WhiteHawk – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone else noticed the large amount of texts and books on elements of the craft or ancient mythologies purloined and stashed well away from public view by private libraries? It’s something that had never come to mind before, but upon visiting The British Library with the intention of raiding their Celtic magic/mythology section for a bout of mass photocopying and study I was told I was not allowed to apply for membership or have any access to their books unless I’m studying for post-grad! I had never realised that the libraries that hold the most ancient and informative text on many of the things that interest me (and probably the rest of the general public) are hidden away in private collections by bodies such as the British Library well away from the people who IMHO, really _need_ access to them …materials pertaining to the Craft obviously being of more use to those that practise it, no? This strikes me as slightly unfair! Knowledge should be something available to everyone and not just those favoured by the persons in possession of it …. So, after wandering half way across London in the baking summer heat to find it’s all been a wasted journey I’m of a good mind to get a post grad to borrow the largest book in the library and start beating someone rhythmically over the head with it until they utter the sweet "yes, you can read our books" phrase … but on a slightly less excessive note a petition and a few well placed letters of complaint may be more logical … has anyone got any opinions on the best way of going about this .. who is the highest authority to complain to etc … I’m convinced _something_ should be done .. this really is a most unsatisfactory state of affairs. Cerridwen

Response:

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