Filed under: Student activism
Question:
Try this on for size. The United States Supreme Court agrees with ADL and this issue was settled years ago. http://www.religioustolerance.org/ps_prag.htm
Separation of church and state is not an "attack on American culture". Thomas Jefferson and James Madison supported it.
Response:
Classic Repost showing who is behind the attacks on American Culture Foreword: The ADL is one of three Jewish organizations engaging in revisionism and Holocaust Denial as detailed in this archive: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=5rhktv483m9oofgqt8goir93o4pm0… ADL Welcomes Decision Barring Bible Story in Elementary School Class
Thomas Jefferson was one of the founding fathers who advocated the separation of church and state. Would that mean HE is attacking "American culture"? Try this: Thomas Jefferson on Separation of Church and State Page was completed April 9, 1996 The Danbury Baptist Association, concerned about religious liberty in the new nation wrote to President Thomas Jefferson, Oct. 7, 1801. Sir, Among the many millions in America and Europe who rejoice in your Election to office; we embrace the first opportunity which we have enjoyd in our collective capacity, since your Inauguration, to express our great satisfaction, in your appointment to the chief Majestracy in the United States; And though our mode of expression may be less courtly and pompious than what many others clothe their addresses with, we beg you, Sir to believe, that none are more sincere. Our Sentiments are uniformly on the side of Religious Liberty — That Religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals — That no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious Opinions – That the legitimate Power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor: But Sir our constitution of government is not specific. Our ancient charter together with the Laws made coincident therewith, were adopted on the Basis of our government, at the time of our revolution; and such had been our Laws & usages, and such still are; that Religion is considered as the first object of Legislation; and therefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the State) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights: and these favors we receive at the expense of such degradingacknowledgements, as are inconsistent with the rights of freemen. It is not to be wondered at therefore; if those, who seek after power & gain under the pretense of government & Religion should reproach their fellow men — should reproach their chief Magistrate, as an enemy of religion Law & good order because he will not, dare not assume the prerogatives of Jehovah and make Laws to govern the Kingdom of Christ. Sir, we are sensible that the President of the United States, is not the national legislator, and also sensible that the national government cannot destroy the Laws of each State; but our hopes are strong that the sentiments of our beloved President, which have had such genial affect already, like the radiant beams of the Sun, will shine and prevail through all these States and all the world till Hierarchy and Tyranny be destroyed from the Earth. Sir, when we reflect on your past services, and see a glow of philanthropy and good will shining forth in a course of more than thirty years we have reason to believe that America’s God has raised you up to fill the chair of State out of that good will which he bears to the Millions which you preside over. May God strengthen you for the arduous task which providence & the voice of the people have cald you to sustain and support you in your Administration against all the predetermined opposition of those who wish to rise to wealth & importance on the poverty and subjection of the people. And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you at last to his Heavenly Kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious Mediator. Signed in behalf of the Association. Nehh Dodge Ephram Robbins The Committee Stephen S. Nelson Baptists in Danbury, Connecticut were persecuted because they were not part of the Congretationalist establishment in that state. On January 1, 1802, in response to the letter from the Danbury Baptist
Gentlemen: The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which are so good to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist Association, give me the highest satisfaction. My duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing. Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State.(THERE IS PROOF THAT FATBOY IS A LIAR) Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all of his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties. I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessings of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem. Thomas Jefferson Sources: Robert S. Alley, Professor of Humanites, Emeritus, University of Richmond, from his article, "Public Education and the Public Good," published in William & Mary Bill of Rights Journal, Vol. 4, Issue 1, Summer 1995. And Lipscomb, Andrew and Bergh, Albert, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Vol. 16, pp. 281-282.
Response:
Classic Repost showing who is behind the attacks on American Culture Foreword: The ADL is one of three Jewish organizations engaging in revisionism and Holocaust Denial as detailed in this archive: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=5rhktv483m9oofgqt8goir93o4pm0… ADL Welcomes Decision Barring Bible Story in Elementary School Class http://www.adl.org/presrele/rel_chstsep_90/3245_90.html New link effective February 20, 2003: http://www.adl.org/presrele/rel_chstsep_90/3245_90.asp (Archived locally as: 90_3245_90) Press Release Religious Freedom/Church-State ADL Welcomes Decision Barring Bible Story in Elementary School Class New York, NY, October 1, 1998…The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today welcomed the recent decision of the United States Third Circuit Court of Appeals affirming the right of a public school teacher to exclude religious material from a first grade class. In C.H. v. Oliva, the mother of a six-year-old student sued his school after his teacher forbade him from reading a Bible story to the class. A New Jersey federal district judge ruled in the school
Question:
Classic Repost showing who is behind the attacks on American Culture Foreword: The ADL is one of three Jewish organizations engaging in revisionism and Holocaust Denial as detailed in this archive: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=5rhktv483m9oofgqt8goir93o4pm0… ADL Welcomes Decision Barring Bible Story in Elementary School Class http://www.adl.org/presrele/rel_chstsep_90/3245_90.html New link effective February 20, 2003: http://www.adl.org/presrele/rel_chstsep_90/3245_90.asp (Archived locally as: 90_3245_90) Press Release Religious Freedom/Church-State ADL Welcomes Decision Barring Bible Story in Elementary School Class New York, NY, October 1, 1998…The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today welcomed the recent decision of the United States Third Circuit Court of Appeals affirming the right of a public school teacher to exclude religious material from a first grade class. In C.H. v. Oliva, the mother of a six-year-old student sued his school after his teacher forbade him from reading a Bible story to the class. A New Jersey federal district judge ruled in the school
Question:
No one really knows who controlled the people who flew the planes into the twin towers, nor why. 19 of them were from Saudi. America is friendly with Saudi It seems that those who ran Afghanistan are still in power. Al queda and bin laden did not endear themselves to Iraq and Sadam. Iraq has been minding it’s own business for the past 8 or so years. and so has North Korea. Most of the terrorists caught in Spain and Italy are from Algiers. Are you also confused?
Response:
Not really. It is just the Western Imperialists trying to destroy their opposition.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No one really knows who controlled the people who flew the planes into the twin towers, nor why. 19 of them were from Saudi. America is friendly with Saudi It seems that those who ran Afghanistan are still in power. Al queda and bin laden did not endear themselves to Iraq and Sadam. Iraq has been minding it’s own business for the past 8 or so years. and so has North Korea. Most of the terrorists caught in Spain and Italy are from Algiers. Are you also confused?
Response:
All who took part in WTC 2001,WTC 1993,USS Cole 2000, Pan Am Flight 103 1988,Khobar Towers 1995, Riyadh Office Bldg 1995, Beirut bombings of the U.S. embassy and the U.S. Marine headquarters 1983,TWA Flight 840 bombing 1986, are members of militant Islam whose goal is to establish a militant Islamic superstate. Being militant Islamic fundamentalist their way of life and thinking is not compatible with western thought, religion, or morals, this places the two sides at odds with each other and on a collision course. Countries like Iraq, Iran and Syria use this conflict to their benefit and it is in their best interests to lend some support to groups like Al Queda, Hamas, FRETILIN, ANO, ASG, al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, Islamic extremist group-GIA, Asbat al-Ansar-the Partisans’ League, Aum Shinrikyo I, Revolutionary Organization of Socialist Muslims , al-Faran , HUM, Islamic militants of Uzbekistan-IMU, Jaish-e-Mohammed -JEM, Egyptian Islamic Jihad, Islamic Jihad, Jihad Group, The National Liberation Army of Iran (NLA, the militant wing of the MEK), Muslim Iranian Student’s Society, National Council of Resistance (NCR), Markaz-ud-Dawa-wal-Irshad (MDI), Organization of the Oppressed on Earth-Hizaballah, Talaa’al-Fateh, Al Ummah just to name a few…. There is no doubt that Saddam’s security forces infiltrate countries in the region and carry out kidnappings and murders of dissidents, and Iraq has bought favors among Islamic terrorist groups to carry out attacks when it is unable to carry out such attacks. When Iraq mates this ability with it’s chemical and biological arsenal the world will have one hell of a smoking gun.
Response:
No one really knows who controlled the people who flew the planes into the twin towers, nor why.
Am I the only one who saw the tape of Osama Bin Laden openly admitting that he was responsible and had commandeered the 9/11 attacks ? (I’m waiting to hear that the tape was a fake created by the warmongering imperialist intelligence monster; quick, look under your bed!) 19 of them were from Saudi. America is friendly with Saudi
Let’s get this straight once and for all: Saudi Arabia is NOT a friend or an ally of the US. They are merely a necessary business partner that we are coddling (disgustingly so, in my opinion) because of their oil. I’ll bet you the left testicle of every anti-war/internationalist/socialist/revolutionary puke in this country that if we found oil in Antarctica, we’d dump the House of Saud in less time than it takes to say "no war for oil!" and publicly make the local penguin population our nearest and dearest "allies". It seems that those who ran Afghanistan are still in power.
You mean the Taliban? The leadership is dead or hiding (unless Mullah Omar got some plastic surgery done and renamed himself Hamid Karzai). As for the "middle management" and the rank and file Taliban, a lot of them have probably switched to the new leadership and pledged allegiance to them. But keep in mind, in a country as poor as Afghanistan, lining up behind those in power is a matter of survival. Al queda and bin laden did not endear themselves to Iraq and Sadam.
Not directly. but here are some clues: – Before Desert Storm, Saddam was an openly secular dictator, who lined up every Moslem cleric and believer against a wall because he saw religion and its influence as a threat to his absolute power. – When the crap hit the fan and US forces were handing him his heiny on a silver platter on the battlefield, Saddam found Allah very quickly to drive a wedge between the US and their Arab partners in the coalition created by Bush Sr. (Egypt, Syria, et al). – Al Quaeda maybe did not endear themselves to Iraq and Saddam. And why should they care and waste their time with a guy who got smacked by a biiiiiiiiiiiig can of whoop-ass and has been contained by the US, when they have the reputation of being the victorious champions of the Moslem underdog ? On the other hand, Saddam may a lot to gain by sucking up to Al Quaeda…. Iraq has been minding it’s own business for the past 8 or so years. and so has North Korea.
Yeah, right…… You might be right if you call diverting proceeds from the UN food for oil program for personal gain and playing tiddly winks with UN inspectors (thus sending a big "screw you" message to the international community) in the case of Iraq, and coming out with a nuclear program that was developed secretly to bypass a 1994 agreement in the case of North Korea minding your own business. It’s like saying that Jeffrey Dahmer was minding his own business when killed his victims because he was commiting murder in the privacy of his own home. Hell, he wasn’t bothering the neighbors……. Most of the terrorists caught in Spain and Italy are from Algiers.
Do you even know what Al-Quaeda is ? It is the directing force of an international network of fundamentalist, radical Moslem terrorist groups. Every country that has a sizable Moslem population has its own fundamentalist terrorist group: the Moslem Brotherhood in Egypt, the Islamic Armed Group in Algeria, the group that bombed the vacation resort in Bali (I forget their name but they are locals), etc….. These murderers are driven by warped religious convictions that transcend borders and countries, which is why it so difficult to get them. Are you also confused?
So as you can see, you are not confused, just ignorant of basic facts. The more pressing question is this: are you confused because it suits what you believe or are you just misinformed ? —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–
Response:
—– Original Message —– Newsgroups: alt.activism Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 8:27 AM All who took part in WTC 2001,WTC 1993,USS Cole 2000, Pan Am Flight 103 1988,Khobar Towers 1995, Riyadh Office Bldg 1995, Beirut bombings of the U.S. embassy and the U.S. Marine headquarters 1983,TWA Flight 840 bombing 1986, are members of militant Islam whose goal is to establish a militant Islamic superstate. Being militant Islamic fundamentalist their way of life and thinking is not compatible with western thought, religion, or morals, this places the two sides at odds with each other and on a collision course.
*** You paint a pretty grim picture. But I feel sure that a high proportion of Islamists are not fundamentalists, and that many, as with in Christian countries are not religious at all – perhaps that is just what I hope. Then again are they any different to Israeli fundamentalists who use the Mossad – Al bet etc? Countries like Iraq, Iran and Syria use this conflict to their benefit and it is in their best interests to lend some support to groups like Al Queda, Hamas, FRETILIN, ANO, ASG, al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, Islamic extremist group-GIA, Asbat al-Ansar-the Partisans’ League, Aum Shinrikyo I, Revolutionary Organization of Socialist Muslims , al-Faran , HUM, Islamic militants of Uzbekistan-IMU, Jaish-e-Mohammed -JEM, Egyptian Islamic Jihad, Islamic Jihad, Jihad Group, The National Liberation Army of Iran (NLA, the militant wing of the MEK), Muslim Iranian Student’s Society, National Council of Resistance (NCR), Markaz-ud-Dawa-wal-Irshad (MDI), Organization of the Oppressed on Earth-Hizaballah, Talaa’al-Fateh, Al Ummah just to name a few….
***This picture gets darker and darker. I notice the recuring ‘Islamic’ e.g. ‘religion’ Do you believe this to be the main reason for all the unrest or are there other reasons? There is no doubt that Saddam’s security forces infiltrate countries in the region and carry out kidnappings and murders of dissidents, and Iraq has bought favors among Islamic terrorist groups to carry out attacks when it is unable to carry out such attacks. When Iraq mates this ability with it’s chemical and biological arsenal the world will have one hell of a smoking gun.
*** I have throughout my life believed that people had to have good reason just go get off their asses and do something, re; be it striking against injustice of some form or whatever. But now since coming to the NGs and not being of a religious disposition I’m beginning to realise that perhaps I am perhaps somewhat naive – and it’s a bit disconcerting – to say the least. Is there no answer to these problems apart from wars? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – —– Original Message —– Newsgroups: alt.activism Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 8:27 AM No one really knows who controlled the people who flew the planes into the twin towers, nor why. Am I the only one who saw the tape of Osama Bin Laden openly admitting that he was responsible and had commandeered the 9/11 attacks ? *** Do you also believe what you read in newspapers? What a coup for Bin Laden – I bet he couldn’t have resisted the temptation even if he hadn’t done it. (I’m waiting to hear that the tape was a fake created by the warmongering imperialist intelligence monster; quick, look under your bed!) 19 of them were from Saudi. America is friendly with Saudi Let’s get this straight once and for all: Saudi Arabia is NOT a friend or an ally of the US. They are merely a necessary business partner that we are coddling (disgustingly so, in my opinion) because of their oil. *** Not a paricularly moral stance – the kind to set a good example I mean. I’ll bet you the left testicle of every anti-war/internationalist/socialist/revolutionary puke in this country that if we found oil in Antarctica, we’d dump the House of Saud in less time than it takes to say "no war for oil!" and publicly make the local penguin population our nearest and dearest "allies". *** I should have put the last in here. It seems that those who ran Afghanistan are still in power. You mean the Taliban? The leadership is dead or hiding (unless Mullah Omar got some plastic surgery done and renamed himself Hamid Karzai). As for the "middle management" and the rank and file Taliban, a lot of them have probably switched to the new leadership and pledged allegiance to them. But keep in mind, in a country as poor as Afghanistan, lining up behind those in power is a matter of survival. *** I did mean the Taliban – and re the latter part, I had hoped a difference would have been made and the poor made better off.. Al queda and bin laden did not endear themselves to Iraq and Sadam. Not directly. but here are some clues: – Before Desert Storm, Saddam was an openly secular dictator, who lined up every Moslem cleric and believer against a wall because he saw religion and its influence as a threat to his absolute power. *** Would this be the time when America was aiding him? – When the crap hit the fan and US forces were handing him his heiny on a silver platter on the battlefield, Saddam found Allah very quickly *** Encouraging, as it a would seem that he didn’t need to be an Islamist to be a right bastard. to drive a wedge between the US and their Arab partners in the coalition created by Bush Sr. (Egypt, Syria, et al). – Al Quaeda maybe did not endear themselves to Iraq and Saddam. And why should they care and waste their time with a guy who got smacked by a biiiiiiiiiiiig can of whoop-ass and has been contained by the US, when they have the reputation of being the victorious champions of the Moslem underdog ? On the other hand, Saddam may a lot to gain by sucking up to Al Quaeda…. Iraq has been minding it’s own business for the past 8 or so years. and so has North Korea. Yeah, right…… You might be right if you call diverting proceeds from the UN food for oil program for personal gain and playing tiddly winks with UN inspectors (thus sending a big "screw you" message to the international community) in the case of Iraq, and coming out with a nuclear program that was developed secretly to bypass a 1994 agreement in the case of North Korea minding your own business. It’s like saying that Jeffrey Dahmer was minding his own business when killed his victims because he was commiting murder in the privacy of his own home. Hell, he wasn’t bothering the neighbors……. ***Re. the latter part – Until bush called them evil they were not in the news. My big problem with this is – That you say Sadam this, Sadam that, (As do all other people) but when it comes to war it is not Sadam who I care a shit for – but the few million innocent folk who have suffered and continue to do so – those whom we should be trying to help. Like the old saying "F**k you Jack, I’m alright. Sadam and Co are the problem, so why not try taking them out first? Most of the terrorists caught in Spain and Italy are from Algiers. Do you even know what Al-Quaeda is ? It is the directing force of an international network of fundamentalist, radical Moslem terrorist groups. Every country that has a sizable Moslem population has its own fundamentalist terrorist group: the Moslem Brotherhood in Egypt, the Islamic Armed Group in Algeria, the group that bombed the vacation resort in Bali (I forget their name but they are locals), etc….. These murderers are driven by warped religious convictions that transcend borders and countries, which is why it so difficult to get them. *** Which is my point – if your’s above is true (and I don’t say it’s not) then doing away with any part of it will not put an end to the problem, until Islam is distroyed – if you think that possible – I think you are deluding yourself. Do you believe the rotten parts to be Islam or Sadam, if both, then it’s bad news for all concerned. Are you also confused? So as you can see, you are not confused, just ignorant of basic facts. The more pressing question is this: are you confused because it suits what you believe or are you just misinformed ? *** If I believe you – it’s both.
Response:
Question:
In talk.abortion, Damian J. Anderson wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.sffaith.com/ed/articles/2001/1101rk.htm SAN FRANCISCO FAITH 1 November 2001 They Don’t Have to Like Me Martin Luther King Wasn’t Subtle, Either By Robert Kumpel At 6:15 a.m. in an industrial park near the center of Los Angeles County, a plain-looking warehouse is unlocked. Beyond the iron gates and surveillance camera, another iron gate leads to a truck yard, which leads to the giant doors. Inside, the trucks are warmed up. A few more people show up. Some are staff, some are volunteers, and two of them are off-duty police officers that will escort the trucks. The reason for all the security is apparent when you look at the trucks. Photographs of aborted fetuses are blown up to billboard size on each side of every truck bed. Over the photos is the word ‘choice’ in quotation marks and a web address. Some of the 8-10-week unborn babies are juxtaposed with a dime. Every working day, five days a week, since June, drivers of these trucks have plied the freeways of Los Angeles for three hours of morning traffic. The organizer plans to bring the trucks to the Bay Area the first two weeks in November.
[rest snipped] "I may not like what you say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it." However, I also have the right to say that this isn’t exactly the most intelligent of ad campaigns. 
— EAC code #191 121d:13h:03m actually running Linux. The Internet routes around censorship.
Response:
http://www.sffaith.com/ed/articles/2001/1101rk.htm SAN FRANCISCO FAITH 1 November 2001 They Don’t Have to Like Me Martin Luther King Wasn’t Subtle, Either By Robert Kumpel At 6:15 a.m. in an industrial park near the center of Los Angeles County, a plain-looking warehouse is unlocked. Beyond the iron gates and surveillance camera, another iron gate leads to a truck yard, which leads to the giant doors. Inside, the trucks are warmed up. A few more people show up. Some are staff, some are volunteers, and two of them are off-duty police officers that will escort the trucks. The reason for all the security is apparent when you look at the trucks. Photographs of aborted fetuses are blown up to billboard size on each side of every truck bed. Over the photos is the word ‘choice’ in quotation marks and a web address. Some of the 8-10-week unborn babies are juxtaposed with a dime. Every working day, five days a week, since June, drivers of these trucks have plied the freeways of Los Angeles for three hours of morning traffic. The organizer plans to bring the trucks to the Bay Area the first two weeks in November. A project planned for years, the trucks are the latest weapon used by the Center for Bio-Ethical Reform, a nonprofit pro-life group. Its founder and director, Greg Cunningham, briefs the crew before leaving on today’s run. On large map, he describes his plan for what freeways they will cover. Today is a loop that begins on the 605 North to 60 East to 57 North, to 210 West to 134 West, to 405 South to the 10 East to 5 South and back to 605 South. "We will drive this loop ad nauseum — that is, until every driver that has seen us is nauseated!" The session ends with a brief prayer. At 6:40, everyone boards the trucks. Everyone who rides wears a 50 pound bullet-proof SWAT vest with steel panels on all four sides of the torso. Each vest has pepper spray in its pocket. Helmets are located under the seats. Cunningham explains, "The California Highway Patrol turned down our application to armor-plate the cabs. Yet you can buy a bulletproof Mercedes or BMW just by placing the order. We are being victimized by content-based discrimination. That’s a case we could win in court if we ever get around to filing a lawsuit. The windows are not bulletproof, but they are coated with mylar film, which can stop a brick. Nobody is every going to pull us out of a truck and do to us what Reginald Denny had done to him by Damien Williams. We don’t put our people in harm’s way for the purpose of getting beaten up." As the trip begins, the police car follows the truck convoy, keeping lanes clear behind them and making sure no one can stalk the convoy upon return to the warehouse. The security car and the trucks are equipped with video cameras that document activity on each trip. Each member of the convoy communicates by radio. "Violence against pro-lifers is under-reported because a lot of pro-life activists just don’t think the police will do anything about it. And frequently they won’t do anything about it. It’s harder to get district attorneys to prosecute it and it’s harder to get judges to find people guilty for it or penalize them significantly. A judge is more likely to shrug off an assault against a pro-lifer, but a bogus allegation of an assault against a pro-abort is likely to land a pro-lifer in jail." During the early part of the trip, the trucks are going against the commute. Stalled traffic on the other side of Highway 60 cannot miss the message on each truck. The trucks move at 45 mph, the minimum legal speed on California’s highways. As he drives, Cunningham explains their mission. "The truck campaign is an outgrowth of the Genocide Awareness Project, which involves the display of large photo murals out of doors on large university campuses. We’ve now been on 33 public campuses all over the country, setting up the murals outside of student unions and what have you. Probably three quarters of a million students have seen these pictures now. That project was the result of a fairly sophisticated analysis we’ve done on the history of social reform, looking for the unchanging principles of social reform, going back 150 years or more. We’ve examined every movement from the abolition of child labor, the abolition of slavery, the civil rights movement, the anti-Vietnam war movement, etc. "Successful social reformers invariably used horrifying pictures to dramatize injustice. Those pictures were then used to confront the culture and prick the collective conscience. But since the reformers were social liberals, they found sympathetic allies in the press, who would publish and broadcast these photos. If we were to apply these principles to pro-life activism, we could only do so up to the point that we had to rely on the press. Clearly, the press, if not hostile, is certainly not sympathetic to our point of view. So we had to come up with a new mass medium, a way of putting these pictures into the heads of people who are never going to see them on television or in newspapers or magazines or billboards. It occurred to us that the freeway system is this multi-billion dollar complex designed and built for transportation, but could be appropriated for educational purposes. Commutes are getting longer and freeways are getting more crowded each year and you basically have a captive audience of people who can’t change the channel and can’t turn the page when they see us." Cunningham continued, "When I’ve done talk radio and I am asked a question, two or three words into my answers, everyone starts shouting me down. When I was on the Leslie Marshall show, she got so angry with me that she hung up on me. When I was on the Brian Whittaker show, I was supposed to come on at six in the evening, he kept me on hold until six-thirty, just beating the heck out of us, criticizing, misstating facts and taking hostile calls, not letting me off of hold into the conversation, so I finally hung up. Without realizing it, these talk show hosts who are so vehemently opposed to the truck project are making our point, which is, you can’t hang up on the trucks. You can’t put them on hold and you can’t shout them down. We’re not going to get a fair shake from most talk-show hosts, the conservative ones tend to not want to deal with this issue, but the trucks are in your face. It’s critical that they are in your face because another aspect of social reform that we identified was massive societal denial among people who had been complicity in injustice or who were complacent in response to the injustice, felt guilty about it, didn’t want to feel any more guilt, and, as a consequence, didn’t want to know more about the injustice than they already knew. So if you want to teach people who don’t want to learn, you’ve got to develop non-consensual methodologies that don’t rely on the consent of the person you are trying to educate in order to be effective. Once you look fleetingly at the pictures, they are in your head and you’re never going to get them out. Every time you hear the word ‘abortion’ thereafter, instead of calling to mind an abstraction, you are going to see a dead baby, tortured to death, bloody, sickening. Over time, if you have a functioning conscience, these images will begin to change the way you feel, think and ultimately, behave. The residual effect remains operative long after you’ve left the physical presence of the signs." At 54, Cunningham, has the background for any number of high-powered, high-paying careers. A former state legislator, justice department official and assistant U.S. attorney, something deeper keeps him doing this. "I sat in the U.S. attorney’s office in Los Angeles and every week watched 25 or 30 resumes come across my desk from people at very good law firms and people from very good law schools who graduated high in their class, edited their law reviews, all kinds of academic honors … day by day it became clearer to me that any one of these people could do my job at least as well as I was doing it and some of them better. But none of them would be willing to fight the greatest moral evil the world has ever seen. I thought to myself, ‘I’m going to have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ and explain what I was doing while the sewers of our cities were running red with the blood of our children." "We have the more convincing argument. Those who shout me down are foils for me because they are demonstrating their fear of my answer when they won’t let me give it. These trucks have created absolute pandemonium on the other side, because there is absolutely nothing they can do to stop this. If they respond violently, is just draws more attention to us and discredits them. If they take us to court, they just create a forum in which we can focus more attention on the project. It’s like the dilemma of an animal caught in a leg-hold trap. The harder you pull when you get trapped, the deeper the teeth sink into your leg and that’s exactly the dilemma being faced by the pro-aborts. They don’t know whether to ignore this or resist it, so the only semi-coherent criticism we hear, besides ‘You’re upsetting children’ is that the pictures aren’t real. The liberals know that if the pictures are real, they’re dead. There’s no moral defense for their position that’s in any way convincing, so they resort to the same tactics that neo-Nazi skinheads employ when confronted with evidence of the holocaust. They just say the pictures are fake and it never happened…. I’m not aiming this at the 20 percent of the population that is irremediably evil, but at the maybe 60 percent that’s just confused about all of this or believes abortion is the lesser of two evils because they don’t know how evil it actually is. The unwanted nature of the message is what Cunningham believes gives it power. "That creates a great deal of … read more »
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Question:
Thanks for posting this article. I used the websight to send an email and try to prove Bush wrong. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – personal relationship with our national forests since long before I wrote "Snow Falling on Cedars." As a college student, I worked summers for the U.S. Forest Service burning slash in clearcuts, piling brush, and fighting wildfires. I’ve seen the wilderness at its most fearsome — and at its most fragile. Today, it’s political cronyism between logging interests and the Bush administration which poses the greatest threat to the survival of the wild. From the Channel Islands in California to the Great North Woods in Maine, this dangerous combination of greed and political favoritism puts some of the most pristine and untamed places in our country at risk. The Tongass National Forest ( http://www.SaveBioGems.org/Tongass) is one of these vulnerable places. The heart of the largest temperate rainforest left on the planet, the Tongass is among the national forest wildlands now slated for logging and development. Alaska’s Tongass is home to the world’s largest concentration of grizzly bears and bald eagles. This inspiring landscape of misty isles and towering groves of ancient trees supports populations of the Alexander Archipelago wolf, sustains the black bear, and is crisscrossed by streams teeming with salmon. But the Tongass is also coveted by the logging industry. That’s why so many have spoken up in support of protecting the Tongass and other national forest wildlands. The Clinton administration heard your comments and, in January 2001, issued a landmark ban on roadbuilding and industrial logging in undeveloped roadless areas of our national forests. But the Roadless Rule, years in the making, has been waylaid by President Bush. His administration delayed implementing the rule, then refused to defend it in court. Now, despite more than 600 public hearings on the issue and a record-breaking 1.6 million public comments — over 95 percent of which were in strong support of wilderness protection — Bush has started a new 60-day public comment period, hoping that the same public support won’t materialize a second time. (Prove him wrong at http://www.SaveBioGems.org/Tongass.) Never mind that one half of our national forest system has already been developed by commercial interests. Never mind that there are already 378,000 miles of access roads carved into our national forests, more than eight times the length of the U.S. Interstate system. Never mind that Attorney General Ashcroft assured the Senate before his confirmation that he’d defend the Roadless Rule. Since he’s been confirmed, he’s done nothing to oppose lawsuits brought by industry and others hostile to this historic decision. Never mind that Americans have resolutely voiced their support for protecting the Tongass in overwhelming numbers. We don’t want to see the timber industry destroy our natural wonders. And we sure don’t want to be dragged back to square one on this issue. But here we are. Bush has decided to ignore these facts — and your comments. With this 60-day window for additional "public" comment, Bush has waged a bet. He’s betting you won’t find out that the Tongass is once again on the chopping block. He’s counting on running out these 60 days without letting you know that the clock is ticking. But you can bet your national forests that insider logging interests know when and where to put in their two cents. I urge you to join me in this fight for the Tongass National Forest. It only takes a minute or so to make your voice heard. Visit http://www.SaveBioGems.org/Tongass and, with a click of the mouse, you can send an email directly to the Forest Service, or alert a friend to this environmental and ethical crisis. While you’re there, you can take action to protect other wild places like Greater Yellowstone, the Everglades, and Utah’s Redrock Wilderness now threatened by the Bush administration. Right, you might be saying to yourself, "Logging companies greased political coffers with enough money to convince the White House to attack our Roadless Rule. What’s one email going to do?" A lot. Activism on the Web has emerged as one of the most potent grassroots tools we have to speak truth to power. NRDC web activists helped persuade President Clinton to create the Giant Sequoia National Monument. In Belize, your e-activism helped compel Duke Energy to drop out of a planned dam that would flood the Macal River Valley. In Chile, it was the power of a mouse that helped block Boise-Cascade’s plans to build the largest wood-chip mill in Latin America. Click. I hope you’ll take a minute to visit http://www.SaveBioGems.org/Tongass. The comment period ends September 10th. Tell our leaders in Washington that the Tongass National Forest — and your vote — is worth more than any campaign contribution. 8/27/01
Response:
personal relationship with our national forests since long before I wrote "Snow Falling on Cedars." As a college student, I worked summers for the U.S. Forest Service burning slash in clearcuts, piling brush, and fighting wildfires. I’ve seen the wilderness at its most fearsome — and at its most fragile. Today, it’s political cronyism between logging interests and the Bush administration which poses the greatest threat to the survival of the wild. From the Channel Islands in California to the Great North Woods in Maine, this dangerous combination of greed and political favoritism puts some of the most pristine and untamed places in our country at risk. The Tongass National Forest ( http://www.SaveBioGems.org/Tongass) is one of these vulnerable places. The heart of the largest temperate rainforest left on the planet, the Tongass is among the national forest wildlands now slated for logging and development. Alaska’s Tongass is home to the world’s largest concentration of grizzly bears and bald eagles. This inspiring landscape of misty isles and towering groves of ancient trees supports populations of the Alexander Archipelago wolf, sustains the black bear, and is crisscrossed by streams teeming with salmon. But the Tongass is also coveted by the logging industry. That’s why so many have spoken up in support of protecting the Tongass and other national forest wildlands. The Clinton administration heard your comments and, in January 2001, issued a landmark ban on roadbuilding and industrial logging in undeveloped roadless areas of our national forests. But the Roadless Rule, years in the making, has been waylaid by President Bush. His administration delayed implementing the rule, then refused to defend it in court. Now, despite more than 600 public hearings on the issue and a record-breaking 1.6 million public comments — over 95 percent of which were in strong support of wilderness protection — Bush has started a new 60-day public comment period, hoping that the same public support won’t materialize a second time. (Prove him wrong at http://www.SaveBioGems.org/Tongass.) Never mind that one half of our national forest system has already been developed by commercial interests. Never mind that there are already 378,000 miles of access roads carved into our national forests, more than eight times the length of the U.S. Interstate system. Never mind that Attorney General Ashcroft assured the Senate before his confirmation that he’d defend the Roadless Rule. Since he’s been confirmed, he’s done nothing to oppose lawsuits brought by industry and others hostile to this historic decision. Never mind that Americans have resolutely voiced their support for protecting the Tongass in overwhelming numbers. We don’t want to see the timber industry destroy our natural wonders. And we sure don’t want to be dragged back to square one on this issue. But here we are. Bush has decided to ignore these facts — and your comments. With this 60-day window for additional "public" comment, Bush has waged a bet. He’s betting you won’t find out that the Tongass is once again on the chopping block. He’s counting on running out these 60 days without letting you know that the clock is ticking. But you can bet your national forests that insider logging interests know when and where to put in their two cents. I urge you to join me in this fight for the Tongass National Forest. It only takes a minute or so to make your voice heard. Visit http://www.SaveBioGems.org/Tongass and, with a click of the mouse, you can send an email directly to the Forest Service, or alert a friend to this environmental and ethical crisis. While you’re there, you can take action to protect other wild places like Greater Yellowstone, the Everglades, and Utah’s Redrock Wilderness now threatened by the Bush administration. Right, you might be saying to yourself, "Logging companies greased political coffers with enough money to convince the White House to attack our Roadless Rule. What’s one email going to do?" A lot. Activism on the Web has emerged as one of the most potent grassroots tools we have to speak truth to power. NRDC web activists helped persuade President Clinton to create the Giant Sequoia National Monument. In Belize, your e-activism helped compel Duke Energy to drop out of a planned dam that would flood the Macal River Valley. In Chile, it was the power of a mouse that helped block Boise-Cascade’s plans to build the largest wood-chip mill in Latin America. Click. I hope you’ll take a minute to visit http://www.SaveBioGems.org/Tongass. The comment period ends September 10th. Tell our leaders in Washington that the Tongass National Forest — and your vote — is worth more than any campaign contribution. 8/27/01
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\ Thanks for posting this article. I used the websight to send an email and try to prove Bush wrong.\
No problem. It is no coincidence that the most beloved, creative, and bright people in our country support forward-thinking plans like the Roadless Initiative. -Muskie
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Genoa court orders three Americans and 17 others released from prison in summit rioting cases PIERO VALSECCHI, Associated Press Writer Tuesday, August 14, 2001 Breaking News Sections (08-14) 16:06 PDT MILAN, Italy (AP) — A court ordered the release from prison Tuesday of three Americans and 17 Europeans arrested in connection with violence at last month’s Group of Eight summit in Italy. Susanna Thomas, 21, from Warren, N.J.; Andre Patrick Stoffel, born in 1978 and from Illinois; and Brian Sating, born in 1965, from Ohio still face charges carrying a maximum punishment of 15 years in prison. The hometowns and exact ages of the two American men were not immediately available. In her first comments after leaving jail, Thomas said all political prisoners should be released. "There are lots of political prisoners still in jail and they all need help and support and prayers and solidarity," she told The Associated Press in an interview at Milan’s airport. A police car carried Thomas and another detainee, a Slovak woman, from Voghera prison near Genoa to Linate airport in Milan, were they arrived shortly before midnight and were taken to the police office. A prison official who refused to give his name told reporters that Thomas would catch the first available flight out of Italy. Linate has no direct U.S. flights, but does have service to some European capitals. Thomas said she was planning to fly out Wednesday and would visit friends in Europe for a few days before returning to Warren to see her parents. She was wearing a hand-made t-shirt that read "Freedom for all political prisoners" written in German. The Genoa court on Tuesday also ordered the release of 15 Austrians, a Slovak and a Swede. Most were part of an Austrian theater group who had been detained since July 22, lawyers said. "We are extremely happy to know that our daughter will be released," Susanna’s father, Rick Thomas, in a telephone interview earlier in the day. Thomas’ lawyer, Gilberto Pagani, said Italian authorities had issued an expulsion order for all 20. Austrian Embassy officials said that the 15 Austrians would be deported to the border. Late Tuesday, the ANSA news agency said six Austrian men had left their prison in Alessandria, 35 miles north of Genoa. Thomas’ lawyers submitted a new petition for her release Tuesday after an initial one was rejected on technical grounds. The judges Monday refused to consider the case of five other people, in addition to Thomas — three Austrians, one Slovak and one Australian. But one of the defense lawyers, Andrea Sandra, said Tuesday that the release of the 20 implied that the other five, too, would be ordered freed. He said the five would probably be questioned on Friday, and might be freed by the end of the week. Thomas was arrested with the Austrian Publix Theater, a street theater group that deals with political themes, as the group was leaving Genoa in a caravan of vehicles. Police alleged that the Publix Theater group had conspired with the violent anarchists known as Black Bloc — who were considered mainly responsible for the riots — before and during the July 20-22 summit. Police seized jackknives, black clothes, cell phones and flagpoles in their vehicles. The actors maintain that the items were used in their street performances. Thomas’ parents have said their daughter, a member of the pacifist Christian Quakers, would never take part in violent protests and was in Genoa as part of her research on nonviolent social activism. Last week, Austrian President Thomas Klestil wrote his Italian counterpart, Carlo Azeglio Ciampi, urging the "speedy release" of Austrians still in custody. Nobel Prize winner Dario Fo had also campaigned for the theater group’s release.
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<snip Two can play at this game… Request: 63.87.244.24 using netblock server whois.arin.net connecting to whois.arin.net [192.149.252.21:43] … UUNET Technologies, Inc. (NETBLK-UUNET63) UUNET63 63.64.0.0 – 63.127.255.255 Natex Communications (NETBLK-UU-63-87-244) UU-63-87-244 One thing you should ask the folks about these here parts is how well I play this game. First the connection, next the bumps in the night, then not only a vanish from the Internet, but a vanish from this planet. Do you REALLY want to be "banished" from this planet like some others? Your anonymous attempts leaves you grabbing your ankles butt ass naked in the wind for the whole world to see; and we see smeared poop squished between your butt cheeks about your ass hole. Here’s a napkin, go clean yourself. — http://anneli.com/blackbane IRC : /server anneli.com #witchcraft creator of alt.witchcraft creator of alt.traditional.witchcraft original creator of alt.religion.wicca don’t like my postings, then go to: alt.religion.wicca.moderated //// /// ‘~ ( —– // / // : ) —– Raven / / / /) / —- BlackBane / //..\ A Real Witch
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For those of you who are having problems with Raven Blackbane should report him and have his Internet service permanently revoked.
First off, why don’t you use your real email address and not "weedmail". Second, why don’t you use your company’s news machine and not "goggle" as if no one knows you posted from IP address 63.87.244.24 and also another from 63.87.244.28. Third, why don’t you do your own complaining, you spineless jellyfish, and stop begging others to so what you’re to scared to up the chain. All you care about is the "Wiccan bashing" nature of my posts. If it was bashing Nazi skin heads, you’d not blink twice. But really, let’s look at that post closer. The really nasty things where "Wiccan bitch Whore" and "this is how all Wiccans should end up." Well first, any woman that aids and abets a married man into infidelity by assisting him into committing adultery is a "bitch". Not sure where your priorities are located, but if you think that is exceptable behavior, then your a bitch too in my books. Next, per media reports, any woman that runs about town diving into "one night stands", time and time again with one man after the next, is a Whore in my books. "Wiccan" is a dash of spice to be on subject for this group and since I love to equate the actions of tramps with Wiccans as Wiccans are tramps. Thus what we have, in totality, is simply a "Wiccan bitch Whore". The truth is the truth. Next "this is how all Wiccans should end up." Hey that’s my fricking opinion and no more offensive then that of the Jews in 1930s-et seq. wishing Hitler was dead along with all the other Nazi. What’s remains in the posting is rather benign. Now if you want to make a complete jackass of yourself, YOU are free to email any abuse email box since all the information you posted about anneli.com shows it’s own by a Victoria Borg in Sweden. Victoria sure sounds female to me, not Greek Bukva. — http://anneli.com/blackbane IRC : /server anneli.com #witchcraft creator of alt.witchcraft creator of alt.traditional.witchcraft original creator of alt.religion.wicca don’t like my postings, then go to: alt.religion.wicca.moderated //// /// ‘~ ( —– // / // : ) —– Raven / / / /) / —- BlackBane / //..\ A Real Witch
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<snip I understand that Malphas already gave you fair warning. So go away, BOY, before some rips your head off like a cork from a bottle of red wine causing red stuff to spray all over the place. BTW, I am them, or can’t you telnet, ftp, go to port 25, exc… — http://anneli.com/blackbane IRC : /server anneli.com #witchcraft creator of alt.witchcraft creator of alt.traditional.witchcraft original creator of alt.religion.wicca don’t like my postings, then go to: alt.religion.wicca.moderated //// /// ‘~ ( —– // / // : ) —– Raven / / / /) / —- BlackBane / //..\ A Real Witch
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For those who already know of the reputation of Raven Blackbane know that he has very serious psychological problems, particularly with women. He is also known to harass others in the newsgroup so if anybody needs to forward his posts, below is the information.
Man, if you ain’t a broken record or what. None the less, still here and kicking fine. Maybe that’s because anneli has been with them for almost 7 years as a PAYING customer and not some snot nose brat that came off the Internet with an anonymous addy with a two bit email address over a two bit news poster. — http://anneli.com/blackbane IRC : /server anneli.com #witchcraft creator of alt.witchcraft creator of alt.traditional.witchcraft original creator of alt.religion.wicca don’t like my postings, then go to: alt.religion.wicca.moderated //// /// ‘~ ( —– // / // : ) —– Raven / / / /) / —- BlackBane / //..\ A Real Witch
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For those of you who are having problems with Raven Blackbane should report him and have his Internet service permanently revoked. Judging from his postings, he obviously has very serious psycological problems. The man obviously has a deep hatred for women which reflects in his posts, furthermore he exhibits sexually abnormal behavior, which also reflect in his posts. The only logical means of having this person banned from the Internet is to file a former complaint in which the information is supplied below: CrossLink Internet Services – 5537 C Hempstead Way, Springfield, VA 22151 Sales: DC Metro Area 703-642-1120 menu option 1 | 888-427-6775 FAX: 703-642-1258 | All other departments 703-642-1120 http://www2.crosslink.net/contact.cfm Registrant:ANNELI-BBS (ANNELI-DOM)4820 VandergatanvagStockholm,SWEDENDomain Name: ANNELI.COMAdministrative Contact, Technical Contact, Billing Contact:Victoria, Borg
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Papa Jackass <papa_j…@geocities.com> wrote: >It is interesting to note that one of Hillary’s boys in the >State Dept. is praising China’s population control tactics.
We realize that you hate strong women, but such a stupidly dishonest claim as the one above is, well, actually rather typical of you. >It is common knowledge that China only allows urban married >couples to have a single child — and enforces this Draconian >policy with forced abortions.
Used to. Don’t. A fact which you would have been aware of if you had actually managed to pull your head out of your ass long enough to read the article you posted. >http://search.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WAPO/19981201/V000719-120198-… [...] > He said China has agreed to abide by international > demands that its programs not be coercive and is open- > ing clinics and programs to "international scrutiny, > comment and change.”
– Ray Fischer For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, r…@netcom.com and lose his own soul?
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Papa Jack <papa_j…@geocities.com> wrote: >It is common knowledge that China only allows urban married >couples to have a single child — and enforces this Draconian >policy with forced abortions.
Prove it. That left-wing commie rag, Time magazine, recently said that there is "some anecdotal evidence that these abuses [forced abortions and similar human rights violations] happen but no evidence that the government promotes them." (Time, June 29, "How Bad Is China?") The so-called "one child" policy was abandoned years ago in rural China, which is where all of the alleged forced abortions occured, and urban Chinese, who are more subject to economic and social pressures, also prefer to have just one or two children like everyone else in the urbanized world.
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Papa Jack cites: It is interesting to note that one of Hillary’s boys in the State Dept. is praising China’s population control tactics. It is common knowledge that China only allows urban married couples to have a single child — and enforces this Draconian policy with forced abortions. The very next day, the govern- ment is repressing dissidents by throwing their leaders in jail. Let’s review excerpts from the two articles: ———— On December 1, 1998, the Washington Post carried an AP article by David Briscoe titled "U.S. Praises China Family Planning." http://search.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WAPO/19981201/V000719-120198-… Excerpts follow: ________________________________________________________________ The State Department official who oversees population issues praised family planning progress in China and said Tuesday that he would fight to restore U.S. fund- ing for U.N. population programs, including those in China. [snip] A congressional ban on funding for the United Nations Population Fund has “terrible, immediate human conse- quences,” said Frank E. Loy, undersecretary of state for global affairs, at a conference on women and pop- ulation. Under current law, no aid can go to the U.N. population program as long as it has programs in China, which critics say has been forcing pregnant women to have abortions. Loy acknowledged occasional problems and abuses over the years in China and said U.S. officials would "react firmly to allegations of coercion or abuse." He said China has agreed to abide by international demands that its programs not be coercive and is open- ing clinics and programs to "international scrutiny, comment and change.” [snip] Loy also said the United States contributes $385 mil- lion a year in family planning assistance, making it the largest single bilateral donor in the world. ________________________________________________________________ On DECEMBER 2, 1998, the Express-News carried an AP article by Charles Hutzler titled: "China Detains High-Profile Dissidents." http://wire.ap.org/ Excerpts: BEIJING (AP)
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Not to be picky, but unless your a post grad student, how did you intend to read them? If they are as old as claimed, or of a religious nature, I doubt very much that they would be in English. Valid point … I was going to find out if they were in English or not and go from there .. I know someone who would be able and willing to translate anything in Celtic for me and a friend of mine speaks Latin as well as most other languages with a frighteningly native grasp … Anything in English I could of course read myself!
I have tried to stay out of this discussion, but I have to respond to this. <rant<lecture Depending on the age of the document, you probably COULD NOT read it, and unless your friends are student of archaic languages, neither could they. As an example: A lot of people today have trouble reading Middle or Elizabethan English (although, maybe you are one of the lucky ones, like me, for whom this isn’t true), so how much more trouble are they and YOU going to have trying to read Old English. You know, the "common" language of England at the time of the writing of such epics as Beowulf. I’m sorry, but the ability to read a modern day language does NOT automatically give one the ability to read the ancient and/or archaic forms of that language. And the Latin of the Middle Ages is most certainly NOT the Latin of Pliny and Homer. </lecture</rant — Captain Wolf Catholic(kinda, sorta) Bard ** Please hold. All muses are busy right now, ** ** but your inspiration is important to us… ** ** If I knew who to credit I would **
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Depending on the age of the document, you probably COULD NOT read it, and unless your friends are student of archaic languages, neither could they.
It’s a little presumptious to jump to conclusions (however slight) about the knowledge of people you don’t know .. the person in question is a druid with knowledge of the old celtic languages and if she can’t translate something herself she is in touch with many people more knowledgeable than her who could .. there is always someone you know who knows more than you, who knows someone who knows more than them .. this is how knowledge is passed on and shared for the greater benefit of all. And the issue was not whether *I* could read it, but whether I could _access_ it, through which I could find the meaning of anything I found I needed to know or directly pertaining to that which I am researching. English (although, maybe you are one of the lucky ones, like me, for whom this isn’t true),
I read as I answer posts, sometimes it’s instinctual and comes from an inner part of me and sometimes I don’t know what I’m talking about, and sometimes I rely on conscious knowledge, but either way it usually serves me well. I’m sorry, but the ability to read a modern day language does NOT automatically give one the ability to read the ancient and/or archaic forms of that language.
But one still has ones intuition – which is what has led me so far to always find people to teach me and lead me along the right path so far and lead me to the knowledge I ‘need’ most. I am sure if there was a part I couldn’t understand but ‘felt’ important I could have someone translate it and find it’s meaning … it may sound illogical and childish to you but that is the way I do things, I have never found anyone to teach me what I need to know so intuition has led me, for better or worse, usually better, so that is what I trust in, over intellect. Cerridwen
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Has anyone else noticed the large amount of texts and books on elements of the craft or ancient mythologies purloined and stashed well away from public view by private libraries? It’s something that had never come to mind before, but upon visiting The British Library with the intention of raiding their Celtic magic/mythology section for a bout of mass photocopying and study I was told I was not allowed to apply for membership or have any access to their books unless I’m studying for post-grad!
If you can get someone like a proffesor to stand for you, you might well get access, the reason the books are restricted in Places like the Brit library, is that people were stealing them, fundimentalists were destroying pages and books they didnt agree with, a lot of the books are terribly fragile, and literally would crumble away. post grads and registered researchers are taught how to use such books, or should be , . they sign them out to read in the library itself the books are never removed from such libraries, , and the books are inspected after their use if the books are damaged they are aware who caused such damage. some of them would have fallen to bits by now if the general public were allowed to read them, I agree all information should be public, I would like to see such books copied so they are available to everyone without the chance of loss, destruction or theft. even better if they could be on the internet. the originals which are irreplacable cant be on general use. its often not to deny you the information but simply to save the books themselves from destruction, that they are limited to such few people. Some of those books are so beautifull that they are thrilling just to hold and touch, even the touch of fingers the oils and perspiration on the skin would damage the more delicate books, each page has to be lifted with a tool, and with great care and delicacy. their fragility is frightening even photography with a flash or photocopying would cause damage. though they have come up with a photography teqhnique now that needs nothing more than normal light, it would take years to get all that information copied. Librarians often dont explain this to the general public, they can be very protective of these books, and for good reason, but if they explained why, then I think most people could accept the restrictions, some of the books in the Brit museum, even post grads cant touch, they are to delicate. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I had never realised that the libraries that hold the most ancient and informative text on many of the things that interest me (and probably the rest of the general public) are hidden away in private collections by bodies such as the British Library well away from the people who IMHO, really _need_ access to them …materials pertaining to the Craft obviously being of more use to those that practise it, no? This strikes me as slightly unfair! Knowledge should be something available to everyone and not just those favoured by the persons in possession of it …. So, after wandering half way across London in the baking summer heat to find it’s all been a wasted journey I’m of a good mind to get a post grad to borrow the largest book in the library and start beating someone rhythmically over the head with it until they utter the sweet "yes, you can read our books" phrase … but on a slightly less excessive note a petition and a few well placed letters of complaint may be more logical … has anyone got any opinions on the best way of going about this .. who is the highest authority to complain to etc … I’m convinced _something_ should be done .. this really is a most unsatisfactory state of affairs. Cerridwen
– The ‘Old Craft’ lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/shez/
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The Catholic Church requires confession to a priest, a mediator between God and man.
James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. — Doug Gilliland Calvary Chapel FUAQ Page http://idt.net/~dougg/cc.htm Luke 7:35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [...] that fall apart as soon as one merely glances at them (I even own some old books myself, though they aren’t quite *that* ancient), it saddens me that they aren’t made available to interested people through other means, like microfiche, or "master copies" that people can use for their own reading and photocopying instead of the fragile original. I mean, the idea can’t be that exotic – in most of the classes I’m taking the lecturers don’t want hordes of students to leaf through their private book collection, but they don’t want to deprive us from the accumulated knowledge either, so they put one or two photocopied versions of the book(s) in question into the department’s "books to read this term" shelf. Surely people at places like the British Library could do something similar? (Their budget can’t be much smaller than the average university’s. Gee, I *hope* it’s not smaller. But then again, nothing can possibly be *that* small, can it? 
CU, Julia 
(who also knows some post-grads whom she wouldn’t let handle *her* old books with their grubby little fingers, thank you very much)
Several people on this thread have had excellent ideas about how to make the content of these old materials available: micro-technologies like fiche and film, scanning to digital, etc. Most librarians, planet wide, would love to be able to afford to retrospectively convert vulnerable text to make it available (photocopying isn’t free and you easily run afoul of US copyright laws doing more than a chapter or two.) But we can’t do these things without money–most public and academic libraries have taken serious budget hits in the last decade or so while the cost of things like journals has risen 12% per annum (several times the inflation rate of most industrialized nations at the moment.) Buying new books and journal subscriptions is threatened, let alone converting what you’ve already purchased or things that can’t be replaced. It’s the reality librarians live with. Most older institutions can’t even afford to retrospectively catalog old materials… i.e. list them on the new, nifty, electronic library catalogs. Converting tens of millions of older titles to digital or fiche is on the list behind that chore. The multi-million dollar budget in my uni-library barely keeps the doors open and lights on after the acquisition bills are paid. To convert our older materials–nothing but labor-intensive work–would eat the entire campus’s budget for years. Maybe we should be organizing ourselves to find funds for limited conversion projects? Salt MLS
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Hello!
[snip snip] : Not to be picky, but unless your a post grad student, how did you intend to : read them? If they are as old as claimed, or of a religious nature, I doubt very : much that they would be in English. : : MP, : Laren : : many are in old English. which is possible to read but difficult, : grammer and spelling were nothing like it is today. perhaps being : dsylexic helped, This is so true! I’m not dyslexic, but I’ve had similar experiences with languages I’m not a native speaker of. For some reason (probably because we make lots of mistakes "normal" people don’t make) we have a much higher tolerance for "mistakes" – these can be real spelling or grammatical errors or nonstandard (older or dialectal) forms. So, for example, a German native speaker (who doesn’t happen to be a linguist) will look at an Old High German text and, finding that s/he can’t read it fluently, say something like "That’s supposed to be German? Why can’t I read it, then?" and put it away. An advanced learner is more likely to say, "Hmm, interesting words/inflection/whatever" and keep reading (or at least try). I’m learning Finnish, and Finns are often surprised to find that I’m actually reading (at a really, really slow pace, though) the Kalevala (the Finnish national epic, written in a quite, shall we say, colorful and sort of exotic dialect). Well, to them it’s something that’s supposed to be Finnish but can’t be easily understood; to me understanding only half of a Finnish text (and encountering words and phrases I wouldn’t consider "normal" or "sensible") is quite normal… after all, most of *my* Finnish probably wouldn’t be considered "normal" or "sensible" by anyone except (probably) other Germans learning Finnish… so to me the Kalevala is just another Finnish text. I probably don’t even notice most of the nonstandard forms that slow down native speakers, since I’m far from knowing all the rules of Finnish grammar… and I don’t notice many of the older or dialectal words Finns have to look up either, because I have to look up many words anyway. CU, Julia — Julia Simon Hypp"a"aj"at"ar Sprachen-Freak vom Dienst snailmail: Akanapolku 2 L 401, 01370 Vantaa, Finland homepage: http://www.lingsoft.fi/~simon Where linguists gather, madness abounds ( – the story of my life)
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snip much that they would be in English. MP, Laren Again, in this country, we still have the (end of) age of the learned amateur!
Its a great pity that age of amatuer study is ending, but to be fair, it was mostly the middle class, and upper classes who had the time ,money and patience to do all that study. Slowly but surely this is being eroded, but there are still a number of experts in such fields with a great deal of knowledge, and few if any passing).
Some of them are accepted in Schollarly circles because of that knowledge, but they are not accorded the same respect they once had. these days without letters behind your name, your not considered to be a Schollar. — The ‘Old Craft’ lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/shez/
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <SNIP not to deny you the information but simply to save the books themselves from destruction, that they are limited to such few people. I know, I just find it irritating that they don’t think my being interested in my beliefs is a good enough excuse for me to read their books, yet post grads are allowed pretty much unrestricted access 
Cerridwen Not to be picky, but unless your a post grad student, how did you intend to read them? If they are as old as claimed, or of a religious nature, I doubt very much that they would be in English. MP, Laren
many are in old English. which is possible to read but difficult, grammer and spelling were nothing like it is today. perhaps being dsylexic helped, most of it made more sense than modern English which is very clipped in comparison. mostly the changes were obviouse, like using F for an S. some are in Latin, and I was never very good at latin, Some french and german, if your willing to persist, you can translate. — The ‘Old Craft’ lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/shez/
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <SNIP not to deny you the information but simply to save the books themselves from destruction, that they are limited to such few people. I know, I just find it irritating that they don’t think my being interested in my beliefs is a good enough excuse for me to read their books, yet post grads are allowed pretty much unrestricted access Cerridwen Not to be picky, but unless your a post grad student, how did you intend to read them? If they are as old as claimed, or of a religious nature, I doubt very much that they would be in English. MP, Laren
Again, in this country, we still have the (end of) age of the learned amateur! Slowly but surely this is being eroded, but there are still a number of experts in such fields with a great deal of knowledge, and few if any passing). — janet Time bears away all things, even the mind…. Virgil
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<SNIP not to deny you the information but simply to save the books themselves from destruction, that they are limited to such few people. I know, I just find it irritating that they don’t think my being interested in my beliefs is a good enough excuse for me to read their books, yet post grads are allowed pretty much unrestricted access Cerridwen
Not to be picky, but unless your a post grad student, how did you intend to read them? If they are as old as claimed, or of a religious nature, I doubt very much that they would be in English. MP, Laren
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Hello!
: <SNIP : not to deny you the information but simply to save the books themselves : from destruction, that they are limited to such few people. : : I know, I just find it irritating that they don’t think my being : interested in my beliefs is a good enough excuse for me to read their : books, yet post grads are allowed pretty much unrestricted access : Not to be picky, but unless your a post grad student, how did you intend to : read them? If they are as old as claimed, or of a religious nature, I doubt very : much that they would be in English. <turns up nose You know, there are those of us who learned things like Latin in high school. Not to mention those who never went to university (or those who did, but with a totally unrelated subject, say molecular biology) and went through the pains of learning to read an ancient language they were interested in through self-study… Not wanting to brag; but I, for example, am not a post-grad (nor will I be anytime soon at my current pace ; yet I took 6 years of Latin at school (and try to keep somewhat fluent), and I used to have a working knowledge of Sanskrit (very rusty nowadays, alas) and can kind of read Old High German and, because of my knowledge of Latin, also older versions of French and Italian. (Give me a dictionary, and I can more than just "kind of" read them.) I’m also hoping to learn Old Norse through osmosis (i.e. spelling my way through Eddas and sagas and trying to make sense of what I read with the help of my German, my Swedish, and a Modern Icelandic grammar book). manuscrips that fall apart as soon as one merely glances at them (I even own some old books myself, though they aren’t quite *that* ancient), it saddens me that they aren’t made available to interested people through other means, like microfiche, or "master copies" that people can use for their own reading and photocopying instead of the fragile original. I mean, the idea can’t be that exotic – in most of the classes I’m taking the lecturers don’t want hordes of students to leaf through their private book collection, but they don’t want to deprive us from the accumulated knowledge either, so they put one or two photocopied versions of the book(s) in question into the department’s "books to read this term" shelf. Surely people at places like the British Library could do something similar? (Their budget can’t be much smaller than the average university’s. Gee, I *hope* it’s not smaller. But then again, nothing can possibly be *that* small, can it? CU, Julia (who also knows some post-grads whom she wouldn’t let handle *her* old books with their grubby little fingers, thank you very much) — Julia Simon Hypp"a"aj"at"ar Sprachen-Freak vom Dienst snailmail: Akanapolku 2 L 401, 01370 Vantaa, Finland homepage: http://www.lingsoft.fi/~simon Where linguists gather, madness abounds ( – the story of my life)
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If you can get someone like a proffesor to stand for you, How many people can find a professor to stand for them? Not everyone has such influential friends, and I think _everyone_ should be allowed access to knowledge .. meybe not to the books themselves, but certainly to the knowledge they contain.
I agree I am the last person the argue that knowlage should not be available, but those books and manuscripts are so terribly frail, a breath can damage them. would you have everyone who wanted to, able to access those books they would be destroyed in a week or less they are not library books. I beleive that the access should be available through the internet or copies of those books and manuscripts. the original material is not capable of withstanding such use. get access, the reason the books are restricted in Places like the Brit library, is that people were stealing them, fundimentalists were Fair enough, but it is possible to become a member … just not unless you’re a post grad or have friends in high places, etc …
Not realy you do have to be doing some sort of proffesional research, but you could ask for copies of such books if you know what you want to look at. if you are a published author you would find them more ammenable, a lot of the books are terribly fragile, and literally would crumble away. They could always copy the books and make them more widely available that way …
Yes they can , but they are not talking about a few books they are talking about thousands upon thousands of books, and normal photo or scanning damages them terribly, they have found a way to copy that dousnt damage, but it is slow, its going to take years of work to copy everything. removed from such libraries, , and the books are inspected after their use if the books are damaged they are aware who caused such damage. In that case they shouldn’t have a problem with _anyone_ using them .. if they inspect the books afterwards any damage would be recognised and they could deal with it as they seen fit.. I have a deep respect for books and certainly wouldn’t be causing any damage.
No I am sure you would not damage a book. , but some people would, which is why such books are kept for the use of people who know how to handle them without causing further damage. could you take a course on how to handle such books, and then approach them, I think if you proved you were safe to handle such books it would be easier. although they might know who caused the damage to a book, they can charge the cost of repair if its repairable, and ban that member from the library. but it dousnt put right the damage already done, some of it is not capable of being repaired. I think you would find most of the texts available, are both difficult to read and badly faded, often you could only find a few words that were readable, inks fade, vellum and parchment and skins fade and crack not to deny you the information but simply to save the books themselves from destruction, that they are limited to such few people. I know, I just find it irritating that they don’t think my being interested in my beliefs is a good enough excuse for me to read their books, yet post grads are allowed pretty much unrestricted access
No they are not Cerridwen, the realy fragile books they cant touch, and their are sections that they are not allowed in either, its not a free for all, in the older books, and manuscripts each book has to be requested, and brought to you, if its to frail then you simply cant have it, post grad or not. untill its copied the only people who would see it are the repair and conservation people. it can be preety frustrating even for a post grad beleive me. I do honestly understand your frustration, but its not meant to annoy people, its meant to conserve what is perhaps the only copy of the book or script some of the books are so old they are simply single pages of vellum in a wood cover tied with tape, or leather thongs. I think if you saw how fragile they were you would understand. Cerridwen
– The ‘Old Craft’ lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/shez/
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Most libraries with "closed collections" such as these do have a means of making them available to scholars. I wonder if the British Library has any such means, and if so why they didn’t see fot to mention them to me when I visited …
Yes, they do. The problem is probably the definition of "scholar". Sad to say that even here, where the amatuer scholar seems to have held out longest, their day is numbered in the mind of the public, it would seem. I know this may sound like a long shot, but have a look around in your area, look for WEA courses or University adult ed courses….it may take a while, but if you take one or two of those, you might just be able to get the connections you need… (There’s also always the Open University, but that’s more of a commitment than a 12 week course…). Yes, I know it shouldn’t *have* to be that way, but when dealing with reality at times…. :} There are also various scholarly groups which might be worth contacting, in particular, the Women’s History Network, (but I can’t give you an address…sorry! Don’t have one, but I can look…). in the building and, often, within sight of a librarian. No problem …
No choice, the Brit isn’t a lending library, is it? It’s not unusual for European libraries to be non-lending. Where I did my grad work, no one, NO ONE could take books out. The same went for a number of the other universities and colleges. Bletch…. try networking with a former professor from your college days I didn’t finish school, so this may be difficult …
See above…. If you can’t find a WEA class or classes in your area, email me. There’s a lot of scholarly work going on around the whole subject of historical witchcraft at the moment, though, so it might not be as hard to find something as it might seem! :) (the famous building, with the lions out front), _Real_ lions? And I thought the battleaxes at the British Library were scary …
keeps the porn in a locked cage. Kinky ;)
No, no, no, the BOOKS, not the people who want to read them! :) — janet Time bears away all things, even the mind…. Virgil
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I’m sorry, but this sounds more like a whine than a rant: << Has anyone else noticed the large amount of texts and books on elements of the craft or ancient mythologies purloined and stashed well away from public view by private libraries? …. upon visiting The British Library with the intention of raiding their Celtic magic/mythology section for a bout of mass photocopying and study I was told I was not allowed to apply for membership or have any access to their books unless I’m studying for post-grad! I had never realised that the libraries that hold the most ancient and informative text on many of the things that interest me (and probably the rest of the general public) are hidden away in private collections by bodies such as the British Library well away from the people who IMHO, really _need_ access to them In the first place, the books you’re talking about weren’t "purloined" and "hidden away" in a "private collection." They are part of the collection of a major public-owned library. In the second place, these works constitute a precious historical legacy. The *first* duty of the librarians is to protect and preserve this heritage so that it is not lost, stolen, destroyed by vandals, or damaged by people who don’t know anything about the care and handling of rare and fragile documents. I don’t know anything about you (and more to the point, neither do the librarians!), but your avowed intention to "raid" the Celtic collection for "a bout of mass photocopying" certainly raises my personal alarm flags. I can’t comment on the policies of the British Library. In the U.S., the Library of Congress has very liberal policies on access to its huge collection — though even there, rare and valuable works are carefully protected. Ideally, over the course of time, the contents of these great libraries should be made universally available in safe and durable medium like computer data files. But this is going to be a long and expensive process — with low priority in an age of tightened public spending, anti-tax activism, and paranoia about government activities in general (as revealed quite nicely by the post that began this thread). Until the happy era of universal access arrives, the most important things are (a) that the sources themselves be preserved, and (b) that reasonable access be granted to researchers, scholars, historicans and the like, so that the contents of the works can be studied, evaluated, and thus — indirectly — made available to the interested public. If you’re all that serious about this, maybe you *ought* to become a post-grad student. Real, hard-won knowledge is much less dangerous than many people in the Wiccan community realize! ;)
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I was called to fix a computer at a local church last year. The problem was a circuit breaker, not the computer, so we wound up in the storage room. There were three boxes of books from the Hernando County library in the corner, all about things they considered ‘unchristian’. I guess they were waiting for the next bonfire party… Before you ask; yes, I did report them. They were given the option to return the books. If it had been a private citizen, he/she would have been arrested for theft, but because they were a church, somebody cut them a break. I wouldn’t have. Theft is theft. They weren’t feeding the poor with stolen books.
Good for you. I hate it when someone steals a book or damages it. It makes me furious when this happens. Personally, if I had been the person in charge of the whole deal I would have (please excuse the pun) thrown the book at them. Love and Laughter, Stevie Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer.
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I was called to fix a computer at a local church last year. The problem was a circuit breaker, not the computer, so we wound up in the storage room. There were three boxes of books from the Hernando County library in the corner, all about things they considered ‘unchristian’. I guess they were waiting for the next bonfire party… Before you ask; yes, I did report them. They were given the option to return the books. If it had been a private citizen, he/she would have been arrested for theft, but because they were a church, somebody cut them a break. I wouldn’t have. Theft is theft. They weren’t feeding the poor with stolen books. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone else noticed the large amount of texts and books on elements of the craft or ancient mythologies purloined and stashed well away from public view by private libraries? It’s something that had never come to mind before, but upon visiting The British Library with the intention of raiding their Celtic magic/mythology section for a bout of mass photocopying and study I was told I was not allowed to apply for membership or have any access to their books unless I’m studying for post-grad! I had never realised that the libraries that hold the most ancient and informative text on many of the things that interest me (and probably the rest of the general public) are hidden away in private collections by bodies such as the British Library well away from the people who IMHO, really _need_ access to them …materials pertaining to the Craft obviously being of more use to those that practise it, no? This strikes me as slightly unfair! Knowledge should be something available to everyone and not just those favoured by the persons in possession of it …. [...]
– Wicca Works! at: http://www.atlantic.net/~wiccan/ Articles-Jewelry-Tiles-Chalices-Poetry-ClipArt-Other(!)Stuff – Four boxes to be used in defense of Liberty: Soap, Ballot, Jury, and Ammo. Use in that order.
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I’m a librarian and can, possibly, shed some light on this distressing practice for you. Theft from and damage to these collections, especially the ‘occult’; Black, Women’s, and American Indian Studies; and pornography (the New York Public Library, for one, has astounding porn holdings and a committee to select new stuff) is so frequent, that to maintain the books at all means to remove them from easy public access. If you haven’t heard yet, there is a man in Ohio who was caught defecating in any tome he didn’t like (he is conservative, Xian, and xenophobic) and then leaving the book in restrooms and such for staff and patrons to find. He is the most recent in a long list of narrow-minded people who believe that removing or damaging materials they don’t agree with makes them better people. Check out the "Library Journal" and "American Libraries" for lots of articles about damage to disputed texts and collections. Most libraries with "closed collections" such as these do have a means of making them available to scholars. Generally, you must use the materials in the building and, often, within sight of a librarian. Even these draconian measures (no insult to dragons intended) don’t always work. A trusted scholar was recenting indicted for stealing from some of the US’s most prestigious collections, including the Library of Congress. Getting in: First, you must find an academic or librarian sponsor to get you in past Conan the Librarian. Not easy, but it can be done. Call a local librarian first, tell him/her what you’re interested in reading and see if he/she can make contact for you. If that doesn’t open the door, try networking with a former professor from your college days (change sentence to present tense if you’re still in college or headed there soon) and talking to them about it. I’m sorry to say it, but my profession hasn’t come up with any better way to safeguard these materials for the future. NYPL’s main research library (the famous building, with the lions out front), keeps the porn in a locked cage. Even librarians have to have permission and a key to get to it. Don’t get discouraged. Let me know how things are going… Anne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone else noticed the large amount of texts and books on elements of the craft or ancient mythologies purloined and stashed well away from public view by private libraries? It’s something that had never come to mind before, but upon visiting The British Library with the intention of raiding their Celtic magic/mythology section for a bout of mass photocopying and study I was told I was not allowed to apply for membership or have any access to their books unless I’m studying for post-grad! I had never realised that the libraries that hold the most ancient and informative text on many of the things that interest me (and probably the rest of the general public) are hidden away in private collections by bodies such as the British Library well away from the people who IMHO, really _need_ access to them …materials pertaining to the Craft obviously being of more use to those that practise it, no? This strikes me as slightly unfair! Knowledge should be something available to everyone and not just those favoured by the persons in possession of it ….
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Janet: Isn’t the Protestant fanatics’ cycle of ragging the "Hidden Vatican Library" about due again? It usually runs about 40 year cycles.
I just want my gold back. Shadowstrider Light can only be seen relative to darkness
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(the sound you hear is grinding of teeth…. knoweldge is supposed to be for EVERYONE!) Precisely. It sickens me that so much beautiful art or great knowledge is hidden away in the collections of wealthy people/institutions and the public are denied the chance to appreciate it.
Too true…. Isn’t the Brit. one of those libraries where books can’t be taken from the premises? Yes. I only wanted to read and photocopy on the premises .. which I did explain to the very smug and self righteous woman behind the counter. She seemed to take great personal satisfaction in refusing me access
Arghghghgh….. yes, I’ve known librarians like that, back in my student days…. "Yes, we may have that book. IF we have it and IF no one else is using it, THEN you should be able to use it: I will let you know. Oh, when? Oh, not for at LEAST two hours…" If so, why the requirement of the registration for a degree? I haven’t a clue .. it smacks of discrimination.
(Don’t mind me, I work in continuing ed….). as though post-grad degree students were *necessarily* more trustworthy than the rest of the populace…). I can’t see any reason why theyb should be …
Grin…. Slightly!? British understatement, right?? :) Correct!
I’m learning! :) (WHY is it that libraries and librarians think that reading books is WRONG? What are we going to do, leave eyetracks all over them?). Hmm, I know I’m protective of my books .. people who leave coffee stains etc on them get a damn good telling off, rightly so I think. So, I can understand _that_ but still, that doesn’t make any difference to the fact post grads are allowed in and we’re not!
I have no idea…. If they don’t want valuable materials damaged they could always copy it and stick it in a reference file, then their material is safe and people still have access to the knowledge they need.
All I can think of is that they might have been things which needed careful handling… So THEY don’t have copies? Pull the other, it’s got bells on. I don’t know what to suggest, but if I think of anything, I’ll let you know! Thanks
Short of actually REGISTERING for a post grad degree, I can’t think what to do… (maybe an online, "degrees for nothing" thing? Nah….). But, hummmm… this is a case, I think, where connections will tell. Who do you know? Who do THEY know, and who do THEY know who might help? Good luck! Blessed be,. Cerridwen
– janet Time bears away all things, even the mind…. Virgil
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Has anyone else noticed the large amount of texts and books on elements of the craft or ancient mythologies purloined and stashed well away from public view by private libraries? It’s not just the craft….believe me!!
Janet: Isn’t the Protestant fanatics’ cycle of ragging the "Hidden Vatican Library" about due again? It usually runs about 40 year cycles.
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You’re lucky that you just got denied. The UC Berkeley library got rid of 12,000 books because they went computerized. And no the books are not on disk, either. The library just put the books out in bins for any one who wanted them. BTW, these are not just obscure, books, this are all kinds of books. That is so sad. Ciao, Scarlett
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Has anyone else noticed the large amount of texts and books on elements of the craft or ancient mythologies purloined and stashed well away from public view by private libraries? It’s not just the craft….believe me!! Janet: Isn’t the Protestant fanatics’ cycle of ragging the "Hidden Vatican Library" about due again? It usually runs about 40 year cycles.
It’s going on in the catholic ngs as we speak, in fact! (grin….). (But I’d rather just say, "fanatic", rather than Protestant fanatic… I think that kind of thing supercedes religion, and goes into some other realm…..) :) — janet Time bears away all things, even the mind…. Virgil
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Has anyone else noticed the large amount of texts and books on elements of the craft or ancient mythologies purloined and stashed well away from public view by private libraries?
It’s not just the craft….believe me!! It’s something that had never come to mind before, but upon visiting The British Library with the intention of raiding their Celtic magic/mythology section for a bout of mass photocopying and study I was told I was not allowed to apply for membership or have any access to their books unless I’m studying for post-grad!
(the sound you hear is grinding of teeth…. knoweldge is supposed to be for EVERYONE!) Isn’t the Brit. one of those libraries where books can’t be taken from the premises? If so, why the requirement of the registration for a degree? (She says, as though post-grad degree students were *necessarily* more trustworthy than the rest of the populace…). I had never realised that the libraries that hold the most ancient and informative text on many of the things that interest me (and probably the rest of the general public) are hidden away in private collections by bodies such as the British Library well away from the people who IMHO, really _need_ access to them …materials pertaining to the Craft obviously being of more use to those that practise it, no? This strikes me as slightly unfair!
Slightly!? British understatement, right?? :) Knowledge should be something available to everyone and not just those favoured by the persons in possession of it …. So, after wandering half way across London in the baking summer heat to find it’s all been a wasted journey I’m of a good mind to get a post grad to borrow the largest book in the library and start beating someone rhythmically over the head with it until they utter the sweet "yes, you can read our books" phrase …
Good luck, but there might be a better way… :) (WHY is it that libraries and librarians think that reading books is WRONG? What are we going to do, leave eyetracks all over them?). but on a slightly less excessive note a petition and a few well placed letters of complaint may be more logical … has anyone got any opinions on the best way of going about this .. who is the highest authority to complain to etc … I’m convinced _something_ should be done .. this really is a most unsatisfactory state of affairs.
I don’t know what to suggest, but if I think of anything, I’ll let you know! Cerridwen
– janet Time bears away all things, even the mind…. Virgil
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I wish I could help, …but I know nothing of British rights or laws pertaining to the subject. Ask Shez, perhaps she may know. Blessings, WhiteHawk – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone else noticed the large amount of texts and books on elements of the craft or ancient mythologies purloined and stashed well away from public view by private libraries? It’s something that had never come to mind before, but upon visiting The British Library with the intention of raiding their Celtic magic/mythology section for a bout of mass photocopying and study I was told I was not allowed to apply for membership or have any access to their books unless I’m studying for post-grad! I had never realised that the libraries that hold the most ancient and informative text on many of the things that interest me (and probably the rest of the general public) are hidden away in private collections by bodies such as the British Library well away from the people who IMHO, really _need_ access to them …materials pertaining to the Craft obviously being of more use to those that practise it, no? This strikes me as slightly unfair! Knowledge should be something available to everyone and not just those favoured by the persons in possession of it …. So, after wandering half way across London in the baking summer heat to find it’s all been a wasted journey I’m of a good mind to get a post grad to borrow the largest book in the library and start beating someone rhythmically over the head with it until they utter the sweet "yes, you can read our books" phrase … but on a slightly less excessive note a petition and a few well placed letters of complaint may be more logical … has anyone got any opinions on the best way of going about this .. who is the highest authority to complain to etc … I’m convinced _something_ should be done .. this really is a most unsatisfactory state of affairs. Cerridwen
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Question:
writes: Of course we know what REALLY happened in that Fischl trial (ACTG016) — the AZT group of patients was contaminated by Fischl and the other investigators who violated the protocol of the study — they decided to give Bactrim to some in the AZT group.
Yes, and also to the placebo group as well. Their journal report admits the addition of Bactrim but claimed no proof of efficacy for PCP prevention!
No exclamation point necessary, since PCP prophylaxis was similar in both groups. Thus, proof of PCP prevention by this route could not be proved in this trial. Fischl DID prove it in another trial, but not with the same patients. They then made the very dubious claim that those who received Bactrim were statistically insignificant (the data to "prove" these claims with any certainty were not disclosed).
It’s only dubious because you don’t want to believe it. If you think it’s a lie, then what’s the point of seeing more data? You’d just have to assume that was a lie also. Actually, you probably COULD have access to that data, if you contacted Fischl and asked for it. Hell, Lauritsen got data just as nitty gritty on the same study, through the FOI act (since it’s a government study). The results of this first AZT trial (lasting 12 weeks) were so impressive because many victims in the placebo control group died of PCP (1 death in the AZT group, 19 deaths in the placebo group). At that time, Fischl and the others running the trial were being paid by the drug companies (they wouldn’t admit it at that time, but this was disclosed later). In their published study, Fischl et al denied any proof that Bactrim was useful as a PCP preventive agent. These doctors, of course, had to know better, because they were contradicting Sonnabend and other researchers who knew Bactrim was effective several years earlier.
Not at all. Sonnabend had not proved his case. The Fischl 016 study didn’t either. Weather the doctors believed or suspected that PCP antibiotics improved survival is another matter– believing and being able to say your study SHOWS something are two different things. Therefore, it is safe to say the original ACTG016 AZT trial that led to the FDA approval of AZT (under extreme drug activist pressure) was based on misconduct and fraud — it only lasted about 12 weeks — and once the results were announced, AZT was approved almost immediately (about one and one-half weeks later — I will be posting the original FDA announcement of 3/20/87, which not only confirms my suspicions about this human experimentation, but offers some startling commentary that qualified a specific population of patients who would "benefit" from AZT). Can you guess what population of those with AIDS saw the "benefit" from AZT? If you guessed those with PCP, you’re correct!
No, you’re not correct. You have absolutely NO evidence that this was true. Fischl says it wasn’t, and the ONLY thing you have to decide otherwise is your believe that she can’t be telling the truth, because the result doesn’t fit your theory. Bullshit. Of course, the astounding results of this original 12 week study have never been reproduced — something that would normally raise very serious questions of misconduct in scientific circles — but not in AIDS "science". Nope — misconduct is rewarded in AIDS research!
Get a grip on it. There’s the possibility of misconduct ONLY when somebody TRIES to reproduce the results, and can’t. (And even then, the first study can be an honest mistake). In the case of ACTG 016, nobody ever tried to replicate it after Fischl. Subsequent studies were done with healthier people at an earlier stage of the disease. The results were not as good, but that hardly makes Fischl a liar. It only means that AZT use alone has a relatively short effect, and you waste it on clinically healthy people, who will be expected to stay healthy anyway through the period where the virus becomes resistant to AZT. After that, AZT monotherapy doesn’t help, and (in high doses like in the Concorde) probably hurts. Steve Harris, M.D.
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Cocktail Evangelism, Activism, Clinical Trial Misconduct and Fraud A Primer for Dissent The following article was summarized and excerpted from the Sunday, February 5, 1995, San Francisco Examiner, page A-1. This article is revealing of the issues of two years ago that shaped the events leading to the present. I am offering some additional background information to fill in many of the missing pieces and provide some eye-opening insights for those who are truly interested in the events that have brought us the current drug treatments that are often presented as politically correct "choices" for each PWHIV. Each person considering these "choices" has the right to all the facts — not just those the treatment activists deem worthy of their seal of approval (that is, censorship). Unfortunately, the present atmosphere of drug advocacy for the protease inhibitor combination "cocktails", has become evalgelistic — based purely on "testimonials", hysteria, zealotry and utter intolerance of anyone who dares to suggest alternate and scientific explanations for what is being reported and claimed as "success" for these treatments. The arguments these individuals offer to support their claims are not based on the science. Rather, they point to erratic declines in hospital admissions, obituaries, reported deaths, etc. as the only "proof" of treatment success. Unfortunately, these individuals have lost their objectivity and refuse to accept the fact that the trend in AIDS deaths was well underway BEFORE these cocktails were even available. Improvements in diagnosing, prophylaxing and treating the OIs is the best candidate to explain what we are seeing today (according to Tony Fauci in an MSNBC interview, 12/2/96 — I posted this a week or so ago). The issues raised in the San Francisco Examiner two years ago answer many of the questions being raised today regarding the evolution of these clinical trials — with some interesting quotes from Margaret Fischl, Robert Schooley, Kessler and Delaney. I wonder why Abrams and Fauci — and the handful of those who are typically quoted in such articles — are missing here, replaced by those who have admitted conflicts of interests with the drug industry (Fischl, Schooley, Volberding etc.)? There are some interesting statements that reveal the influence of the drug "treatment activists" (ACTUP Golden Gate, Project Inform, ACTUP New York, etc) in deciding how these trials should be designed in terms of one group on one combination of drugs being compared against another group on a different group of combination drugs. This is only part of the problem that Dr. Donald Abrams (UCSF & San Francisco General Hospital, AIDS Program Director) has articulated on many occasions when he blamed the treatment activist community for the present mess in the drug study and approval process (see UCSF student paper Synapse, Vol 41, No. 6 10/10/96 article by Mark Tanaka, posted recently on misc.health.aids). Abrams states: "In contrast with many of my colleagues at SFGH in the AIDS Program, I am not necessarily a cheerleader for anti-retroviral therapy. I am one of the people who’s questioned, from the beginning, whether or not we’re really making an impact with HIV drugs and, if we are making an impact, if it’s going in the right direction". Abrams assigns blame to the "drug treatment activist" community for interfering with the trial process from the very first AZT study which was cut short and unblinded half way through because "of statistically significant differences in deaths between the two groups". The Synapse article states: "Abrams blamed the ‘very powerful rhetoric’ of the emerging community of AIDS activists, who demanded an end to clinical trials. ‘Somebody should write a book about the impact of that decision on HIV clinical trials history,’ added Abrams, ‘because everything changed because of that demand’. " Of course we know what REALLY happened in that Fischl trial (ACTG016) — the AZT group of patients was contaminated by Fischl and the other investigators who violated the protocol of the study — they decided to give Bactrim to some in the AZT group. Their journal report admits the addition of Bactrim but claimed no proof of efficacy for PCP prevention! They then made the very dubious claim that those who received Bactrim were statistically insignificant (the data to "prove" these claims with any certainty were not disclosed). The results of this first AZT trial (lasting 12 weeks) were so impressive because many victims in the placebo control group died of PCP (1 death in the AZT group, 19 deaths in the placebo group). At that time, Fischl and the others running the trial were being paid by the drug companies (they wouldn’t admit it at that time, but this was disclosed later). In their published study, Fischl et al denied any proof that Bactrim was useful as a PCP preventive agent. These doctors, of course, had to know better, because they were contradicting Sonnabend and other researchers who knew Bactrim was effective several years earlier. Therefore, it is safe to say the original ACTG016 AZT trial that led to the FDA approval of AZT (under extreme drug activist pressure) was based on misconduct and fraud — it only lasted about 12 weeks — and once the results were announced, AZT was approved almost immediately (about one and one-half weeks later — I will be posting the original FDA announcement of 3/20/87, which not only confirms my suspicions about this human experimentation, but offers some startling commentary that qualified a specific population of patients who would "benefit" from AZT). Can you guess what population of those with AIDS saw the "benefit" from AZT? If you guessed those with PCP, you’re correct! Of course, the astounding results of this original 12 week study have never been reproduced — something that would normally raise very serious questions of misconduct in scientific circles — but not in AIDS "science". Nope — misconduct is rewarded in AIDS research! At the Vancouver AIDS Conference in July, 1996, the Treatment Activist community was caught elbow-to-elbow with the drug company representatives to hear the words of wisdom from Drs. Fischl and some of the other researchers who brought us the original AZT studies, ACTG016 and ACTG019. Fischl, Volberding, Schooley et al were thus providing the treatment community with the latest "standard of care", as THEY have defined it — and now includes the newest protease inhibitors (keep in mind that nobody appointed this task to them — they created their own organization to define the standard of care — and with two exceptions, all members of that organization have declared their conflicts of interests with the drug companies as they have been required to do so by certain journals). It is also important to note that the Treatment Activists were in the audience with their typical "we’re not worthy" facial expression which is often seen when they are in the presence of the many luminaries of AIDS research who contradict the basic science and tell them what they want to hear. Shortly after the standard of care presentation began, there was an outburst: the only street AIDS activist organization yet remaining — ACTUP San Francisco — burst into the meeting room, and before an audience of about 1000 doctors, drug company people and drug "activists", displayed their contempt for these doctors (Fischl, Volberding, etc.) by baptizing them with a mixture of tomato and cranberry juice — symbolic of the blood of those whose lives were shortened by these "healers". Meantime, the drug activists led their audience in a chorus of "shame, shame, shame!", directed towards ACTUP San Francisco, which they later labeled as "terrorists". After the baptism, Fischl and others changed their clothes and resumed their misinformation meeting an hour or so later. What I found most amusing was the fact that, only a day earlier, the drug activists of ACTUP Golden Gate were threatening to "mug" the very drug company representatives they were caught brown-nosing at this meeting. Even funnier was the staged protests for pricing and distribution for the drugs — these protests were choreographed and scheduled by the drug companies — however, what showed up on America’s television looked like "real" activism — it wasn’t, those protests were as phony as the treatment activists themselves. ACTG016 represented the original fraud in AIDS drug treatments. That trial proved nothing more than the power that drug company money has on "researchers" who are paid to make "findings" of a product’s efficacy so that it can be marketed. The subsequent cloning of AZT into the analog drugs — d4T, 3TC, ddI, ddC etc. — simply illustrates the snowball effect from the original sin — which was powered by the panic and hysteria whipped up by the "drug treatment activists" (they used to call themselves "AIDS Activists", but if you haven’t noticed, they now call themselves "Treatment Activists" — there IS a big difference). How did we get in the mess of clinical trials that have no control groups and no longer use placebos? Just guess. Here San Francisco Examiner’s Lisa Krieger explains: "Another (idea), supported by many Clinical Trial Group researchers and San Francisco-based activists, advocates a trial in which patients would be assigned randomly to combinations of drugs that might include experimental drugs. As these patients switch in and out, they would be tracked closely for evidence of improvement." The defense of the concept of excluding placebo study groups is based on the arrogant and scientifically bankrupt ideas that the "standard of care" drugs must become the "control group" and the absolutely UNPROVEN assumption that the drugs in the "control" group (sometimes they … read more »
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