Activism Change » Protest songs

Sorry for cross posting – Looking for war protest songs (see inside)

admin — Mon, 29 Nov 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Sorry for posting in multiple newsgroups at once, I am kind of new to this newsgroup thing. I am looking for anti-war or war protest songs from the Viet Nam war era (1960’s). However I will take music from any era or type of music. If anybody has music they can offer please e-mail me at:

Response:

Sorry for posting in multiple newsgroups at once, I am kind of new to this newsgroup thing.

No you are not. You know that crossposting is a breach of nettiquette, yet you still do it.

Response:

…well, let’s see….ummm…" Alice’s Restaurant."…. kj

Response:

Barry McGuire: Eve of Destruction – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry for posting in multiple newsgroups at once, I am kind of new to this newsgroup thing. I am looking for anti-war or war protest songs from the Viet Nam war era (1960’s). However I will take music from any era or type of music. If anybody has music they can offer please e-mail me at:

Response:

Write your own….plenty of left wing mantras to choose subject matter from.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry for posting in multiple newsgroups at once, I am kind of new to this newsgroup thing. I am looking for anti-war or war protest songs from the Viet Nam war era (1960’s). However I will take music from any era or type of music. If anybody has music they can offer please e-mail me at:

Response:

The king of protest was Bob Dylan, whether it was about civil rights or War in general or specifically the Vietnam War. In fact the first place I saw those words "Vietnam War" was on the back liner notes of a Dylan album. "Masters of War" is the harshest and was done to great effect by "Pearl Jam" at the Springsteen Swing State Concerts. It aired on Sundance Channel and despite the outcome I’d bet it is available. It had many of the original artists doing war protest songs such as "Fortunate Son" by Credence Clearwater/John Fogarty and Springsteen often covered the Motown protest song "War ( What is it Good For..)". Jefferson Airplane and Crosby Stills & Nash had a slew of great protest songs, even entire albums largely dedicated to the concept. Airplane’s "Crown of Creation" album as well as "Volunteers" was crammmed full of such tunes. The song "Wooden Ships" was done by both groups as they often wrote together. Hope this helps some Jimmy

Response:

OT Johnny Cash

admin — Thu, 27 Mar 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Some days ya just get the need to share. Hurt Video http://www.johnnycashmusic.com/ Strong stuff and I think he will continue to deliver with his last breath. The song is written by Trent Reznor of Nine Inch Nails (you can tell I have teens!) and Reznor may just follow in Cash’s foot steps as a great storyteller. Hope you all enjoy it as much as I do. Now where did I leave that rock I crawled out from, it was just here ….

Response:

"Boxi" wrote in message … > Some days ya just get the need to share. > Hurt Video http://www.johnnycashmusic.com/ > Strong stuff and I think he will continue to deliver with his last breath. > The song is written by Trent Reznor of Nine Inch Nails (you can tell I have > teens!) and Reznor may just follow in Cash’s foot steps as a great > storyteller. > Hope you all enjoy it as much as I do. > Now where did I leave that rock I crawled out from, it was just here > ….

Fascinating song, thanks

Response:

Boxi Thank you for this…….my younger bro and I are huge NIN fans and grew up listening to one of my Dad’s favorites, Johnny Cash. I found this version and video quite moving. Great find! — Take Care : ) JulieD "To have one’s individuality completely ignored is like being pushed quite out of life. Like being blown out as one blows out a light." —- Evelyn Scott "Boxi" wrote in message

news:EQPga.237065$3D1.101044@sccrnsc01… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Some days ya just get the need to share. > Hurt Video http://www.johnnycashmusic.com/ > Strong stuff and I think he will continue to deliver with his last breath. > The song is written by Trent Reznor of Nine Inch Nails (you can tell I have > teens!) and Reznor may just follow in Cash’s foot steps as a great > storyteller. > Hope you all enjoy it as much as I do. > Now where did I leave that rock I crawled out from, it was just here > ….

Response:

"Boxi" wrote in message … > Some days ya just get the need to share. > Hurt Video http://www.johnnycashmusic.com/

Boxi, I couldn’t believe it the first time I heard that song. I had to ask my Mom, "Hey, that’s JOHNNY CASH, isn’t it?" It sure was, and it was a really great song, and a REALLY well-done video to go with it! Not just written by Trent Reznor, BTW, but an actual cover of a NIN song. Johnny Cash also had Glenn Danzig, of Danzig, the Misfits, and Samhain write a song specifically for him — it was on the album, I can’t think of the name — Murder Ballads or something like that? Men in Black of all ages and muscial genres collaborating to make excellent music! => > teens!) and Reznor may just follow in Cash’s foot steps as a great > storyteller.

I’m not that fond of Trent personally. Liked him a lot when I was 11 or 12. I”ve been a Danzig fan since 2nd Grade. Surprisingly, I actually preferred Johnny Cash’s cover to NIN’s original. Heck, I liked Keith Whitley before he died too, and really love the "Highwaymen" album. Kind of odd for a typical metalhead, but there ya go! => Belinda

Response:

"Boxi" wrote in message … > Some days ya just get the need to share. > Hurt Video http://www.johnnycashmusic.com/ > Strong stuff and I think he will continue to deliver with his last breath.

Hi Boxi! Thanx for this! I love his version of Reznor’s song. I am a big fan of NIN. I never thought Johnny Cash would do a cover of one of their songs! He is still amazing. Sylvia

Response:

"Belinda Kameron" wrote in message

news:afa0e9f8.0303290826.62ea650a@posting.google.com… > > Men in Black of all ages and muscial genres collaborating to make > excellent music! => > "Highwaymen" album. Kind of odd for a typical metalhead, but there ya > go! => > Belinda

I’m not a fan of metal, but I am old enough to not be too quick to make judgements in music (as well as life in general) because when you do you might be missing something wonderful. Glad you all liked it.

Response:

I’ve been a Cash fan since my teens, that means, since he started recording on Sun Records. I even sound like him (so I’m told). One of my favorites fits this group very well I think. ………………………………………………………………… ………………………………………….. *The One on the Left is on the Right* "There once was a musical troupe A pickin’ singin’ folk group They sang the mountain ballads And the folk songs of our land They were long on musical ability Folks thought they would go far But political incompatibility led to their downfall Well, the one on the right was on the left And the one in the middle was on the right And the one on the left was in the middle And the guy in the rear was a Methodist This musical aggregation toured the entire nation Singing the traditional ballads And the folk songs of our land They performed with great virtuosity And soon they were the rage But political animosity prevailed upon the stage Well, the one on the right was on the left And the one in the middle was on the right And the one on the left was in the middle And the guy in the rear burned his driver’s license Well the curtain had ascended A hush fell on the crowd As thousands there were gathered to hear The folk songs of our land But they took their politics seriously And that night at the concert hall As the audience watched deliriously They had a free-for-all Well, the one on the right was on the bottom And the one in the middle was on the top And the one on the left got a broken arm And the guy in the rear, said, "Oh dear" Now this should be a lesson if you plan to start a folk group Don’t go mixin’ politics with the folk songs of our land Just work on harmony and diction Play your banjo well And if you have political convictions keep them to yourself Now, the one on the left works in a bank And the one in the middle drives a truck The one on the right’s an all-night deejay And the guy in the rear got drafted *****Don’t Cry Because It’s Over…Smile Because It Happened.***** Visit Me At "TICK’S PLACE" http://community.webtv.net/OLTICK/TICKSPLACE

Response:

i have always liked this song. it says way more than a mouthful. and your comment… very well said!!! debra — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.463 / Virus Database: 262 – Release Date: 3/17/03

Response:

Hi Tick; > Now this should be a lesson if you plan to > start a folk group > Don’t go mixin’ politics with the folk songs of our land > Just work on harmony and diction > Play your banjo well > And if you have political convictions keep them to yourself

I’m glad nobody ever told Woody Guthrie or Bob Dylan this! I think the trick is to form your band with like-minded people. Or, as Chris Cornell and Tom Rorello did, make an agreement to have NO political stuff in your songs. I have heard one song from their new band, Audioslave, and I think it’s awesome. Some of the best songs are political protest songs. Music is a powerful way to deliver your message, no matter if it’s left or right. Sylvia (now a fan of Johnny Cash since she listened to his music)

Response:

Military Man of honor AND one who speaks the truth!

admin — Thu, 06 Jun 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Probably not libel at all. However, he is in the military and knows better. It is a violation of the UCMJ. They don’t operate under the same rules as the rest of us. For civilians, you say "take this job and shove it" and you get fired. Under the UCMJ you get an Article 15 or a court martial.

Exactly, he knew the rules going in and he agreed to live by them. Plenty of other people are in the same boat — judges for example — they know they cannot participate in certain public debates due to their profession, and if they choose to ignore the rules they pay the price. Whether or not everything this guy says is true or a loony-tunes fantasy is irrelevant, he signed on the dotted line and swore an oath to abide by the rules of the organization he was joining. P.S. Looney-tunes fantasy is the correct answer, anyone who seriously believes the fedgov knew about 9-11 in advance and allowed it to happen needs to change the aluminum foil in their hardhat, the mind-control rays from those CIA satellites are getting through again.

Response:

x-no-archive: yes I thought people understood the Constitution doesn’t apply to servicemen. Still, it’s a shame if it’s true. Doesn’t apply? Sure as hell does..

No, it doesn’t. The Constitution is null and void the moment you’re sworn in. The only "protections" you have after that are the ones listed in the Uniform Code of Military "Justice". Charlie S. RM2, USN(Ret.)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Probably not libel at all. However, he is in the military and knows better. It is a violation of the UCMJ. They don’t operate under the same rules as the rest of us. For civilians, you say "take this job and shove it" and you get fired. Under the UCMJ you get an Article 15 or a court martial. Exactly, he knew the rules going in and he agreed to live by them. Plenty of other people are in the same boat — judges for example — they know they cannot participate in certain public debates due to their profession, and if they choose to ignore the rules they pay the price. Whether or not everything this guy says is true or a loony-tunes fantasy is irrelevant, he signed on the dotted line and swore an oath to abide by the rules of the organization he was joining. P.S. Looney-tunes fantasy is the correct answer, anyone who seriously believes the fedgov knew about 9-11 in advance and allowed it to happen needs to change the aluminum foil in their hardhat, the mind-control rays from those CIA satellites are getting through again.

Well, it really wound’t surprise me if they did know. After all, the attack on Pearl Harbor wasn’t exactly a surprise either, was it? Charlie S.

Response:

Guitar folks front and center! What do we think about this?

Not much. An Air Force officer who accused President Bush of having prior knowledge about Sept. 11 and using the attacks for political gain has been suspended from the Monterey Defense Language Institute and could face court-martial.

It’s called "insubordination" and the military frown on it…. Even though he’s probably right.

Response:

x-no-archive: yes I thought people understood the Constitution doesn’t apply to servicemen. Still, it’s a shame if it’s true.

Doesn’t apply? Sure as hell does.. — "My Heroes Have Always Been Highways" – Tom T. Hall http://www.frontiernet.net/~pj2/index.html http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/314/paul_booth_johnson.html —

Response:

Exactly. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – B) If Mr. Kim’s article is accurate, then the Lt Col stands accused. We still have a trial to proceed with, which when over will determine guilt. Let’s get that part over and decided before discussing punishments. It wouldn’t take a lot of effort for a disgruntled individual to send a letter to a newspaper, and sign somebody else’s name. I would choose to wait until all facts have been presented. C) If in fact the Lt Col performed the accused acts, then his actions were dishonorable. I have known other fine military members who felt they could not faithfully serve the elected Commander in Chief. In one such case I knew a 26 year veteran, who upon the election of President Clinton, opted to get out of the military prior to the inaguration. This was the right thing to do and served as a terrific example to all who knew of his reasonings. He did not make speaches about his decision, he simply made a much larger statement with his feet. If the Lt Col did write these things, then he should have resigned his commission and returned to civilian life first, where he would have been at greater liberty to speak his mind. Protection of the US and it’s citizens is a much bigger issue than any one person’s ambitions. That goes for the President, and those of each and every military member. Again, as a trial has not taken place, and knowing that option is available to commissioned officers, for the time being I choose to believe in the Lt Col’s innocence. Wake up and smell the coffee — guys!! It’s all right there in front of you!! Guitar folks front and center! What do we think about this? This guy is going to get screwed big time for telling the truth and speaking his mind (Anybody who’s ever had anything to do with those facists in Monterey knows this!). But no such thing will happen to us here — if we — SOUND OFF! Wednesday, June 5, 2002 (SF Chronicle) Bush critic suspended by military/Officer’s letter printed Ryan Kim, Chronicle Staff Writer An Air Force officer who accused President Bush of having prior knowledge about Sept. 11 and using the attacks for political gain has been suspended from the Monterey Defense Language Institute and could face court-martial. Lt. Col. Steve Butler, vice chancellor for student affairs at the institute, was suspended on May 29 pending an investigation into a letter he wrote that was published in the Monterey County Herald on May 26, military sources said. In the letter, Butler called Bush a "joke" and said the president is using the war on terrorism to muster political support. "Of course Bush knew about the impending attacks on America," Butler wrote. "He did nothing to warn the American people because he needed this war on terrorism. His daddy had Saddam and he needed Osama. . . . His presidency was going nowhere." ". . . What is sleazy and contemptible is the president of the United States not telling the American people what he knows for political gain," Butler wrote. Citing military regulations prohibiting officials from commenting on ongoing investigations, Air Force spokesman Lt. Col. Art Haubold would not tie Butler’s letter to his suspension. "Butler has been administratively suspended from his position because of an ongoing investigation," said Haubold. But other military sources said Butler was suspended for his remarks. Butler remains stationed at the institute on paid leave, said Haubold. Haubold said the investigation will be conducted by local commanders at the language institute. Butler, a 24-year veteran of the armed forces, served as a bomber navigator in Desert Storm. He declined to comment Tuesday. "My lawyer has advised me to not make any comments," he said. Military sources said Butler was suspended under Article 88 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which prohibits any commissioned officer from using contemptuous words against the president, the vice president, other prominent government officials or Congress. The maximum punishment under Article 88 is dismissal, forfeiture of all pay and allowances and confinement for one year. The only known court-martial under Article 88 occurred in 1965, when 2nd Lt. Henry Howe was convicted of contemptuous words against President Lyndon Johnson. He had participated in an off-base anti-war protest in El Paso, Texas, where he carried signs characterizing President Johnson as "petty," "ignorant" and "fascist." Copyright 2002 SF Chronicle

– "My Heroes Have Always Been Highways" – Tom T. Hall http://www.frontiernet.net/~pj2/index.html http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/314/paul_booth_johnson.html —

Response:

oooh-rah!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As a retired Sailor who served 24 years on active duty, I will second this. The president is also the Commander and Chief of all armed forces. In the military slander of a person even one pay grade higher deep Kim Chee, let alone publicly bashing the president about a policy he probably knew nothing or very little about. I hope they make an example of him. I am in the military and find what he said disgraceful. Nobody in their right mind Republican, Democrat, whatever would let this happened if they truly knew. And certainly did "need" the number casualties to justify their presidency. I am in the Infantry, the one actually on the ground fighting. I don’t have a problem going after whoever. Perhaps this officer thought he joined the salvation army instead of the military, or has spent way to much time behind a desk. Wake up and smell the coffee — guys!! It’s all right there in front of you!! Guitar folks front and center! What do we think about this? I think he shoulda done what I did — ETS and become a civilian and then bitch to your heart’s content about the civilian leadership of the country. Civilian control of the military is a cornerstone of our system. There ain’t no First Amendment once you raise your hand — but there sure as hell is an Article 88 UCMJ. Maybe after he gets out of Leavenworth he’ll write some protest songs to play on his gee-tar, huh?

Response:

Wake up and smell the coffee — guys!! It’s all right there in front of you!!

You know this is exactly what they said about Clinton and the Oklahoma boming. A writer claims he had proof and cited an informant who worked for the intelligence community. And of course Oklahoma conveniently turned the US against the Far Right. But – of course that cant be true can it? Some other "truths" about Sept 11 – Muslims thing the whole thing was setup and done by the Mossad. Others say its a continuation of American capitalists who used Clinton to bring peace to the Balkans and Sept 11 to invade Afganisthan to lay an oil pipe in the region. With so many "truths" out there is so hard to choose.

Response:

He’s going to get what he deserves. He knows the rules, now he pays the price. Mustard USAF ‘72-’75 ROV ‘72-73 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wake up and smell the coffee — guys!! It’s all right there in front of you!! Guitar folks front and center! What do we think about this? This guy is going to get screwed big time for telling the truth and speaking his mind (Anybody who’s ever had anything to do with those facists in Monterey knows this!). But no such thing will happen to us here — if we — SOUND OFF! Wednesday, June 5, 2002 (SF Chronicle) Bush critic suspended by military/Officer’s letter printed Ryan Kim, Chronicle Staff Writer An Air Force officer who accused President Bush of having prior knowledge about Sept. 11 and using the attacks for political gain has been suspended from the Monterey Defense Language Institute and could face court-martial.

Response:

A couple of quick points from someone who’s spent as much time in the Military as the accused. A) The Constitution does apply to the Military. We simply curtail a couple points as needed to maintain a ready force. Those limitations are clearly spelled out to each and every service member as part of thier training. A 24-year veteran would certainly know where the lines are drawn. B) If Mr. Kim’s article is accurate, then the Lt Col stands accused. We still have a trial to proceed with, which when over will determine guilt. Let’s get that part over and decided before discussing punishments. It wouldn’t take a lot of effort for a disgruntled individual to send a letter to a newspaper, and sign somebody else’s name. I would choose to wait until all facts have been presented. C) If in fact the Lt Col performed the accused acts, then his actions were dishonorable. I have known other fine military members who felt they could not faithfully serve the elected Commander in Chief. In one such case I knew a 26 year veteran, who upon the election of President Clinton, opted to get out of the military prior to the inaguration. This was the right thing to do and served as a terrific example to all who knew of his reasonings. He did not make speaches about his decision, he simply made a much larger statement with his feet. If the Lt Col did write these things, then he should have resigned his commission and returned to civilian life first, where he would have been at greater liberty to speak his mind. Protection of the US and it’s citizens is a much bigger issue than any one person’s ambitions. That goes for the President, and those of each and every military member. Again, as a trial has not taken place, and knowing that option is available to commissioned officers, for the time being I choose to believe in the Lt Col’s innocence.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wake up and smell the coffee — guys!! It’s all right there in front of you!! Guitar folks front and center! What do we think about this? This guy is going to get screwed big time for telling the truth and speaking his mind (Anybody who’s ever had anything to do with those facists in Monterey knows this!). But no such thing will happen to us here — if we — SOUND OFF! Wednesday, June 5, 2002 (SF Chronicle) Bush critic suspended by military/Officer’s letter printed Ryan Kim, Chronicle Staff Writer An Air Force officer who accused President Bush of having prior knowledge about Sept. 11 and using the attacks for political gain has been suspended from the Monterey Defense Language Institute and could face court-martial. Lt. Col. Steve Butler, vice chancellor for student affairs at the institute, was suspended on May 29 pending an investigation into a letter he wrote that was published in the Monterey County Herald on May 26, military sources said. In the letter, Butler called Bush a "joke" and said the president is using the war on terrorism to muster political support. "Of course Bush knew about the impending attacks on America," Butler wrote. "He did nothing to warn the American people because he needed this war on terrorism. His daddy had Saddam and he needed Osama. . . . His presidency was going nowhere." ". . . What is sleazy and contemptible is the president of the United States not telling the American people what he knows for political gain," Butler wrote. Citing military regulations prohibiting officials from commenting on ongoing investigations, Air Force spokesman Lt. Col. Art Haubold would not tie Butler’s letter to his suspension. "Butler has been administratively suspended from his position because of an ongoing investigation," said Haubold. But other military sources said Butler was suspended for his remarks. Butler remains stationed at the institute on paid leave, said Haubold. Haubold said the investigation will be conducted by local commanders at the language institute. Butler, a 24-year veteran of the armed forces, served as a bomber navigator in Desert Storm. He declined to comment Tuesday. "My lawyer has advised me to not make any comments," he said. Military sources said Butler was suspended under Article 88 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which prohibits any commissioned officer from using contemptuous words against the president, the vice president, other prominent government officials or Congress. The maximum punishment under Article 88 is dismissal, forfeiture of all pay and allowances and confinement for one year. The only known court-martial under Article 88 occurred in 1965, when 2nd Lt. Henry Howe was convicted of contemptuous words against President Lyndon Johnson. He had participated in an off-base anti-war protest in El Paso, Texas, where he carried signs characterizing President Johnson as "petty," "ignorant" and "fascist." Copyright 2002 SF Chronicle

Response:

so far, so good. and said the president is using the war on terrorism to muster political support.

of course. "Of course Bush knew about the impending attacks on America,"

in a way, that’s true. Butler wrote. "He did nothing to warn the American people because he needed this war on terrorism. His daddy had Saddam and he needed Osama. . . . His presidency was going nowhere."

I don’t have any doubt about the need for power among some of those who attain it. ". . . What is sleazy and contemptible is the president of the United States not telling the American people what he knows for political gain,"

but, it happens often. Butler wrote. Citing military regulations prohibiting officials from commenting on ongoing investigations, Air Force spokesman Lt. Col. Art Haubold would not tie Butler’s letter to his suspension. "Butler has been administratively suspended from his position because of an ongoing investigation," said Haubold. But other military sources said Butler was suspended for his remarks.

yeah. they love free speech. right up until they crush it via some military nonsense. Butler remains stationed at the institute on paid leave, said Haubold. Haubold said the investigation will be conducted by local commanders at the language institute. Butler, a 24-year veteran of the armed forces, served as a bomber navigator in Desert Storm. He declined to comment Tuesday. "My lawyer has advised me to not make any comments," he said. Military sources said Butler was suspended under Article 88 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which prohibits any commissioned officer from using contemptuous words against the president, the vice president, other prominent government officials or Congress.

which is a stupid rule. The maximum punishment under Article 88 is dismissal, forfeiture of all pay and allowances and confinement for one year.

which is a horrendous punishment. But hey. we’re known for that. The only known court-martial under Article 88 occurred in 1965, when 2nd Lt. Henry Howe was convicted of contemptuous words against President Lyndon Johnson. He had participated in an off-base anti-war protest in El Paso, Texas, where he carried signs characterizing President Johnson as "petty," "ignorant" and "fascist."

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s called Libel, and he broke military regulations. Not to mention having no proof of those accusations what-so-ever Wes - PS, the coffee was fine this morning. Wake up and smell the coffee — guys!! It’s all right there in front of you!! Guitar folks front and center! What do we think about this? This guy is going to get screwed big time for telling the truth and speaking his mind (Anybody who’s ever had anything to do with those facists in Monterey knows this!). But no such thing will happen to us here — if we — SOUND OFF! Wednesday, June 5, 2002 (SF Chronicle) Bush critic suspended by military/Officer’s letter printed Ryan Kim, Chronicle Staff Writer An Air Force officer who accused President Bush of having prior knowledge about Sept. 11 and using the attacks for political gain has been suspended from the Monterey Defense Language Institute and could face court-martial. Lt. Col. Steve Butler, vice chancellor for student affairs at the institute, was suspended on May 29 pending an investigation into a letter he wrote that was published in the Monterey County Herald on May 26, military sources said. In the letter, Butler called Bush a "joke" and said the president is using the war on terrorism to muster political support. "Of course Bush knew about the impending attacks on America," Butler wrote. "He did nothing to warn the American people because he needed this war on terrorism. His daddy had Saddam and he needed Osama. . . . His presidency was going nowhere." ". . . What is sleazy and contemptible is the president of the United States not telling the American people what he knows for political gain," Butler wrote. Citing military regulations prohibiting officials from commenting on ongoing investigations, Air Force spokesman Lt. Col. Art Haubold would not tie Butler’s letter to his suspension. "Butler has been administratively suspended from his position because of an ongoing investigation," said Haubold. But other military sources said Butler was suspended for his remarks. Butler remains stationed at the institute on paid leave, said Haubold. Haubold said the investigation will be conducted by local commanders at the language institute. Butler, a 24-year veteran of the armed forces, served as a bomber navigator in Desert Storm. He declined to comment Tuesday. "My lawyer has advised me to not make any comments," he said. Military sources said Butler was suspended under Article 88 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which prohibits any commissioned officer from using contemptuous words against the president, the vice president, other prominent government officials or Congress. The maximum punishment under Article 88 is dismissal, forfeiture of all pay and allowances and confinement for one year. The only known court-martial under Article 88 occurred in 1965, when 2nd Lt. Henry Howe was convicted of contemptuous words against President Lyndon Johnson. He had participated in an off-base anti-war protest in El Paso, Texas, where he carried signs characterizing President Johnson as "petty," "ignorant" and "fascist." Copyright 2002 SF Chronicle

Response:

As a retired Sailor who served 24 years on active duty, I will second this. The president is also the Commander and Chief of all armed forces. In the military slander of a person even one pay grade higher deep Kim Chee, let alone publicly bashing the president about a policy he probably knew nothing or very little about. I hope they make an example of him. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am in the military and find what he said disgraceful. Nobody in their right mind Republican, Democrat, whatever would let this happened if they truly knew. And certainly did "need" the number casualties to justify their presidency. I am in the Infantry, the one actually on the ground fighting. I don’t have a problem going after whoever. Perhaps this officer thought he joined the salvation army instead of the military, or has spent way to much time behind a desk. Wake up and smell the coffee — guys!! It’s all right there in front of you!! Guitar folks front and center! What do we think about this? I think he shoulda done what I did — ETS and become a civilian and then bitch to your heart’s content about the civilian leadership of the country. Civilian control of the military is a cornerstone of our system. There ain’t no First Amendment once you raise your hand — but there sure as hell is an Article 88 UCMJ. Maybe after he gets out of Leavenworth he’ll write some protest songs to play on his gee-tar, huh?

Response:

I am in the military and find what he said disgraceful. Nobody in their right mind Republican, Democrat, whatever would let this happened if they truly knew. And certainly did "need" the number casualties to justify their presidency. I am in the Infantry, the one actually on the ground fighting. I don’t have a problem going after whoever. Perhaps this officer thought he joined the salvation army instead of the military, or has spent way to much time behind a desk.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wake up and smell the coffee — guys!! It’s all right there in front of you!! Guitar folks front and center! What do we think about this? I think he shoulda done what I did — ETS and become a civilian and then bitch to your heart’s content about the civilian leadership of the country. Civilian control of the military is a cornerstone of our system. There ain’t no First Amendment once you raise your hand — but there sure as hell is an Article 88 UCMJ. Maybe after he gets out of Leavenworth he’ll write some protest songs to play on his gee-tar, huh?

Response:

Wake up and smell the coffee — guys!! It’s all right there in front of you!! Guitar folks front and center! What do we think about this?

I think he shoulda done what I did — ETS and become a civilian and then bitch to your heart’s content about the civilian leadership of the country. Civilian control of the military is a cornerstone of our system. There ain’t no First Amendment once you raise your hand — but there sure as hell is an Article 88 UCMJ. Maybe after he gets out of Leavenworth he’ll write some protest songs to play on his gee-tar, huh?

Response:

It’s called Libel, and he broke military regulations. Not to mention having no proof of those accusations what-so-ever Wes - PS, the coffee was fine this morning. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wake up and smell the coffee — guys!! It’s all right there in front of you!! Guitar folks front and center! What do we think about this? This guy is going to get screwed big time for telling the truth and speaking his mind (Anybody who’s ever had anything to do with those facists in Monterey knows this!). But no such thing will happen to us here — if we — SOUND OFF! Wednesday, June 5, 2002 (SF Chronicle) Bush critic suspended by military/Officer’s letter printed Ryan Kim, Chronicle Staff Writer An Air Force officer who accused President Bush of having prior knowledge about Sept. 11 and using the attacks for political gain has been suspended from the Monterey Defense Language Institute and could face court-martial. Lt. Col. Steve Butler, vice chancellor for student affairs at the institute, was suspended on May 29 pending an investigation into a letter he wrote that was published in the Monterey County Herald on May 26, military sources said. In the letter, Butler called Bush a "joke" and said the president is using the war on terrorism to muster political support. "Of course Bush knew about the impending attacks on America," Butler wrote. "He did nothing to warn the American people because he needed this war on terrorism. His daddy had Saddam and he needed Osama. . . . His presidency was going nowhere." ". . . What is sleazy and contemptible is the president of the United States not telling the American people what he knows for political gain," Butler wrote. Citing military regulations prohibiting officials from commenting on ongoing investigations, Air Force spokesman Lt. Col. Art Haubold would not tie Butler’s letter to his suspension. "Butler has been administratively suspended from his position because of an ongoing investigation," said Haubold. But other military sources said Butler was suspended for his remarks. Butler remains stationed at the institute on paid leave, said Haubold. Haubold said the investigation will be conducted by local commanders at the language institute. Butler, a 24-year veteran of the armed forces, served as a bomber navigator in Desert Storm. He declined to comment Tuesday. "My lawyer has advised me to not make any comments," he said. Military sources said Butler was suspended under Article 88 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which prohibits any commissioned officer from using contemptuous words against the president, the vice president, other prominent government officials or Congress. The maximum punishment under Article 88 is dismissal, forfeiture of all pay and allowances and confinement for one year. The only known court-martial under Article 88 occurred in 1965, when 2nd Lt. Henry Howe was convicted of contemptuous words against President Lyndon Johnson. He had participated in an off-base anti-war protest in El Paso, Texas, where he carried signs characterizing President Johnson as "petty," "ignorant" and "fascist." Copyright 2002 SF Chronicle

Response:

Wake up and smell the coffee — guys!! It’s all right there in front of you!! Guitar folks front and center! What do we think about this? This guy is going to get screwed big time for telling the truth and speaking his mind (Anybody who’s ever had anything to do with those facists in Monterey knows this!). But no such thing will happen to us here — if we — SOUND OFF! Wednesday, June 5, 2002 (SF Chronicle) Bush critic suspended by military/Officer’s letter printed Ryan Kim, Chronicle Staff Writer An Air Force officer who accused President Bush of having prior knowledge about Sept. 11 and using the attacks for political gain has been suspended from the Monterey Defense Language Institute and could face court-martial. Lt. Col. Steve Butler, vice chancellor for student affairs at the institute, was suspended on May 29 pending an investigation into a letter he wrote that was published in the Monterey County Herald on May 26, military sources said. In the letter, Butler called Bush a "joke" and said the president is using the war on terrorism to muster political support. "Of course Bush knew about the impending attacks on America," Butler wrote. "He did nothing to warn the American people because he needed this war on terrorism. His daddy had Saddam and he needed Osama. . . . His presidency was going nowhere." ". . . What is sleazy and contemptible is the president of the United States not telling the American people what he knows for political gain," Butler wrote. Citing military regulations prohibiting officials from commenting on ongoing investigations, Air Force spokesman Lt. Col. Art Haubold would not tie Butler’s letter to his suspension. "Butler has been administratively suspended from his position because of an ongoing investigation," said Haubold. But other military sources said Butler was suspended for his remarks. Butler remains stationed at the institute on paid leave, said Haubold. Haubold said the investigation will be conducted by local commanders at the language institute. Butler, a 24-year veteran of the armed forces, served as a bomber navigator in Desert Storm. He declined to comment Tuesday. "My lawyer has advised me to not make any comments," he said. Military sources said Butler was suspended under Article 88 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which prohibits any commissioned officer from using contemptuous words against the president, the vice president, other prominent government officials or Congress. The maximum punishment under Article 88 is dismissal, forfeiture of all pay and allowances and confinement for one year. The only known court-martial under Article 88 occurred in 1965, when 2nd Lt. Henry Howe was convicted of contemptuous words against President Lyndon Johnson. He had participated in an off-base anti-war protest in El Paso, Texas, where he carried signs characterizing President Johnson as "petty," "ignorant" and "fascist." Copyright 2002 SF Chronicle

Response:

Caring about people you just met online

admin — Mon, 19 Jun 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Jean, I haven’t seen you ‘attack’ anything recently that didn’t deserve to be attacked. I haven’t seen you chase anyone around or follow them about the board. I have seen you respond when YOU were followed about the board. I’ve watched while you were stalked, accused, made fun of and laughed at and at times you have been silent. Others you have done exactly what I would have done which was to fight back. You have been fair and honest. I think that is a very healthy response. I don’t think anyone thinks of you as crazy. You are troubled, but then most of us are, right? Lord knows you have more reason than most lately. I don’t think I have ever seen you use that as an excuse for anything, or screwed up wildly here in the ng and used any problems you may be having as a way to get sympathy or deflect attention from what you did wrong. I think most people would agree that you are a very wonderful person and valuable member of the ng. I think if there is a discussion on people who use personal tragedies, real or imagined as a way to get out of trouble, your name would not likely come to many minds. I think that anyone of us, when told that our stalker is after us because we want him to be as some part of an S&M thing would be angry and outraged. I think most people know that no one chooses to be stalked or abused, no one asks for that, and that there is a vast difference between consensual sex play and abuse. I think your response to that was very healthy. I think you have come really far since you have been here, Jean, and I remain proud and pleased to call you my friend, and more to think of myself as yours.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jean said something about you don’t care about people you just met online after reading three or four lines from them, and of course she was immediately attacked, but I agree with her. Liz, do you see a disagreement as an attack in every case? I read the posts and didn’t see anything *attacking* Jean, but trying to figure out the point she was making and look at what was said from another angle. hiya dorothy, i know you have been reading here for some time, so i’m not going to go at you with the history angle, but sincerely – did you really see no attack? Against you, Jean? Not unless my server missed someone’s post. Read on in the thread. Pay careful attention to what is said and the way it is said. Keep in mind that when someone who hates your guts puts on a facade of syrupy care and concern over your "sad and lonely" qualities, I would deduce that what is actually being given is not concern, but faux pity, and it is given with the intent to hurt, not to heal. Oh, light just dawned. Thank you, Jean. I understand the part you were referring to now. OK. I see what you mean. I was trying to get only at the *caring about new people* and missed the actual part of what was said that was offensive to you. This is a difference in what I was focusing on.

Dorothy, you are freaking me out!! Seriously, what a delightful experience, and how rare it is, really, to talk to a person who disagrees with you about something, explain to them what it is exactly you meant/were referring to, and have them actually open up their mind enough to change their view of the situation! Extraordinary! i like it. ) thank you for doing that, in all sincerity. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just a thought. Abuse comes in many forms. Sometimes things are not obvious, as abusers have a habit of choosing their words carefully, very very carefully, but the message is loud and clear for those of us who are familiar with the language. I agree about that. I want to mention something about this that just happened and made me think more about the issue of how parents can be abusive to children even when they are *loving* in terms of how they see themselves and in terms of how others see them. Went to a Nina Simone concert here on Sunday with my husband. When we were in college, Nina was fighting the civil rights battle with her very strong protest songs and we heard her clearly. She has a daughter who is now singing professionally as well. It was not in my mind that the abuse issues would have anything to do with this concert, but what happened stunned me. Nina is probably in her late 60s or early 70s. Coming out on stage, it was obvious that she was frail and unwell. Her voice, however, is still strong, though no longer what it was and the audience was extremely up for the concert. Lots of interracial couples and gay couples were in the audience. After some songs and a few sets by the musicians, she brought her daughter out on stages. They sang a duet and if was lovely. I knew that they had been estranged, but it seemed that they were repairing their relationship. Then, the shock. I have no idea whether her daughter had prepared her mother beforehand for this. She sang a *tribute* to her mom that she had written called *The Child in Me.* Tribute? I was left numb. The whole lyric involved the fact that the child in her had died a little each time mom went on the road sacrificing her family for her people. Can that be a tribute? I don’t know, but for a moment, all I could see was a little girl crying "mommy pay attention to me, mommy, please love me,* in the adult woman that her daughter has become.

ahhh, this is interesting to me too, because you know what i would have seen, if i had witnessed that? I would have seen "mommy, i hate you", and "mommy, i want to humiilate you". You see you are projecting unto the event what is at the root of it, while i am looking at the event and assessing *imo* what is happening *at that moment* and seeing only the motivation that appears to exist *at that moment*. Interesting stuff dorothy. jean Dorothy —–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.2 for non-commercial use

Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …but dorothy, was that the discussion? It wasn’t what i was talking about. Now I’m even more confused than I was before. I understand that you think trying to express concern for a new poster in aar is important. I admire you for that. I sometimes respond to a new poster, welcome to aar and all of that, but that’s rare. It doesn’t interest me - i’m interested in the meatier discussions. There are people here who welcome newcomers without fail, and it’s good of them to do it, too. Ok. I can understand that too. Each person has to decide how to handle a response to a new post on their own. What I was responding to was the fact that someone (maybe this was not you?) said something about the response to the newbie being hypocritical at least that was what I thought was meant by the words said.

well – i guess i was thinking about the kind of caring that is deep and meaningful, not the kind that is global and philosophical, an emotional caring as opposed to a principle of caring. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It isn’t the kind of thing i do, dorothy. And by the way in case you are thinking what an uncaring sociopath that jean is

i think you are right about that, dorothy… but i’m an absolute pigsty. :) jean i suppose i consider myself kind of an unsafe person when it comes to newcomers. i almost always take it slow with them… jean Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown

Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

De nada, sweetie. I do know. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jean, I haven’t seen you ‘attack’ anything recently that didn’t deserve to be attacked. I haven’t seen you chase anyone around or follow them about the board. I have seen you respond when YOU were followed about the board. I’ve watched while you were stalked, accused, made fun of and laughed at and at times you have been silent. Others you have done exactly what I would have done which was to fight back. You have been fair and honest. I think that is a very healthy response. I don’t think anyone thinks of you as crazy. You are troubled, but then most of us are, right? Lord knows you have more reason than most lately. I don’t think I have ever seen you use that as an excuse for anything, or screwed up wildly here in the ng and used any problems you may be having as a way to get sympathy or deflect attention from what you did wrong. I think most people would agree that you are a very wonderful person and valuable member of the ng. I think if there is a discussion on people who use personal tragedies, real or imagined as a way to get out of trouble, your name would not likely come to many minds. I think that anyone of us, when told that our stalker is after us because we want him to be as some part of an S&M thing would be angry and outraged. I think most people know that no one chooses to be stalked or abused, no one asks for that, and that there is a vast difference between consensual sex play and abuse. I think your response to that was very healthy. I think you have come really far since you have been here, Jean, and I remain proud and pleased to call you my friend, and more to think of myself as yours. oh my god liz, i’m so incredibly touched by this. wow. thank you very much. i’m not gonna do the obligatory = i love you thing. but you know, right? thank you. ((liz)) jean Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jean, I haven’t seen you ‘attack’ anything recently that didn’t deserve to be attacked. I haven’t seen you chase anyone around or follow them about the board. I have seen you respond when YOU were followed about the board. I’ve watched while you were stalked, accused, made fun of and laughed at and at times you have been silent. Others you have done exactly what I would have done which was to fight back. You have been fair and honest. I think that is a very healthy response. I don’t think anyone thinks of you as crazy. You are troubled, but then most of us are, right? Lord knows you have more reason than most lately. I don’t think I have ever seen you use that as an excuse for anything, or screwed up wildly here in the ng and used any problems you may be having as a way to get sympathy or deflect attention from what you did wrong. I think most people would agree that you are a very wonderful person and valuable member of the ng. I think if there is a discussion on people who use personal tragedies, real or imagined as a way to get out of trouble, your name would not likely come to many minds. I think that anyone of us, when told that our stalker is after us because we want him to be as some part of an S&M thing would be angry and outraged. I think most people know that no one chooses to be stalked or abused, no one asks for that, and that there is a vast difference between consensual sex play and abuse. I think your response to that was very healthy. I think you have come really far since you have been here, Jean, and I remain proud and pleased to call you my friend, and more to think of myself as yours.

oh my god liz, i’m so incredibly touched by this. wow. thank you very much. i’m not gonna do the obligatory = i love you thing. but you know, right? thank you. ((liz)) jean Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

but can there not be conflict & anger w/out all the venom polly wog

In both groups, the only real obligation to a new poster is not to hurt them. And, actually, that’s not really an obligation either. This is Usenet, so there are almost no limitations on what anybody can say to anybody about anything. I agree with it being a moral obligation, and would like to see it used generally, but it’s not a practical limit. That’s something that I keep jumping on, I know, but it’s one of the facts of life about here that I don’t see a huge concensus acceptance of. I see a desire on the part of some (and I don’t have specific people here in mind, but I’ve seen it stated many different times by many different people, including me) to pretend that this place is what someone or the other would wish it to be, and to perhaps punish those who will not play by those rules. This is a forum that functions more directly on choices made in moments than much of any other forum anyone can be in — any of us can elect spontaneously to never come back here and read anything here ever again and none of us would ever have to even wander by it again even once. Or we can stop reading a thread, or stop reading anything said by an individual, or whatever. We can post or not post anything we wish. Oh, sorry. Beating my old drums again. Hello Blain, it’s nice to see you back around these parts. I remember when you left – if i recall, you were a little disappointed by apathy about some stuff you were involved in – i always felt bad about that. Anyway, it’s nice to see you again. I just have to chime in with my agreement on the above. It seems to me that, with this group in particular, and the subject matter we discuss, there is an expectation of – what - compassion, maybe? Acceptance? A lack of anger, a lack of conflict? Obviously that isn’t the case. I can understand the expectation, but it will never be a therapeutic environment, and though some people find it to be and others find it not to be, that really isn’t a reasonable expectation. It certainly can be a supportive environment. Or not. It depends where you are sitting, i suppose. It’s different things to different people. Just like life. jean Take care, Blain — http://www.blainn.cc/abuse/ and the greatest of these is love

Response:

thank you panther polly wog

Hi polly Just wanted to let you know it was not me who posted this. Both Saab and Crisis are also currently using my account. But how are ya grrlllllll! Panther and the greatest of these is love

Response:

Against you, Jean? Not unless my server missed someone’s post. Read on in the thread. Pay careful attention to what is said and the way it is said. Keep in mind that when someone who hates your guts puts on a facade of syrupy care and concern over your "sad and lonely" qualities, I would deduce that what is actually being given is not concern, but faux pity, and it is given with the intent to hurt, not to heal.

Oh, light just dawned. Thank you, Jean. I understand the part you were referring to now. OK. I see what you mean. I was trying to get only at the *caring about new people* and missed the actual part of what was said that was offensive to you. This is a difference in what I was focusing on. Just a thought. Abuse comes in many forms. Sometimes things are not obvious, as abusers have a habit of choosing their words carefully, very very carefully, but the message is loud and clear for those of us who are familiar with the language.

I agree about that. I want to mention something about this that just happened and made me think more about the issue of how parents can be abusive to children even when they are *loving* in terms of how they see themselves and in terms of how others see them. Went to a Nina Simone concert here on Sunday with my husband. When we were in college, Nina was fighting the civil rights battle with her very strong protest songs and we heard her clearly. She has a daughter who is now singing professionally as well. It was not in my mind that the abuse issues would have anything to do with this concert, but what happened stunned me. Nina is probably in her late 60s or early 70s. Coming out on stage, it was obvious that she was frail and unwell. Her voice, however, is still strong, though no longer what it was and the audience was extremely up for the concert. Lots of interracial couples and gay couples were in the audience. After some songs and a few sets by the musicians, she brought her daughter out on stages. They sang a duet and if was lovely. I knew that they had been estranged, but it seemed that they were repairing their relationship. Then, the shock. I have no idea whether her daughter had prepared her mother beforehand for this. She sang a *tribute* to her mom that she had written called *The Child in Me.* Tribute? I was left numb. The whole lyric involved the fact that the child in her had died a little each time mom went on the road sacrificing her family for her people. Can that be a tribute? I don’t know, but for a moment, all I could see was a little girl crying "mommy pay attention to me, mommy, please love me,* in the adult woman that her daughter has become. Dorothy —–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.2 for non-commercial use

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jean said something about you don’t care about people you just met online after reading three or four lines from them, and of course she was immediately attacked, but I agree with her. Liz, do you see a disagreement as an attack in every case? I read the posts and didn’t see anything *attacking* Jean, but trying to figure out the point she was making and look at what was said from another angle. hiya dorothy, i know you have been reading here for some time, so i’m not going to go at you with the history angle, but sincerely – did you really see no attack? Read on in the thread. Pay careful attention to what is said and the way it is said. Keep in mind that when someone who hates your guts puts on a facade of syrupy care and concern over your "sad and lonely" qualities, I would deduce that what is actually being given is not concern, but faux pity, and it is given with the intent to hurt, not to heal.

Exactly, and I know a couple of people here famous for that very thing. Jean, hang in there. People DID see that attack, and acknowledged it. It isn’t in your mind, you aren’t being paranoid or trying to start shit. It was there. Now ignore it. Just a thought. Abuse comes in many forms. Sometimes things are not obvious, as abusers have a habit of choosing their words carefully, very very carefully, but the message is loud and clear for those of us who are familiar with the language.

Yup

Response:

I get so tired of this silly crap. No one said it was a crime to care, or even came close to implying it and I have better things to do with my time than wade through the oversensitivity of people who have no idea or even care what people are really saying. I don’t think anyone has said they don’t care about apartheid in countries we never visited, or abused children we never met, or strangers we just meet. I care about strangers in so far as I wish them well, I hope they feel no pain, I’m glad when something good happens to them, I care that they have been hurt. But I don’t meet every new person and make them my very best friend. I don’t look at every new person, know them intimately or even *yuck* want to. Who wanst to know everyone deeply and intimately? I have few REAL friends. I pick them carefully and it takes a long time for me to trust them enough to invest any real part of myself in them. By the time I have done that, I usually know them fairly well, what their triggers are, what their sore spots and strengths are, when they are serious and when they are joking, even online. New people, I extend them courtesy if it is warranted, flame them if that is. In that respect, I don’t treat them any differently than I do my friends. The only diference I can see is that with frinds, or people I have known a while, I usually know what to stay away from, where to press gently and when to shut up. Now…if refusing to invest your heart and soul in every bloody face you meet is ok, can we get on with the discussion?

Response:

I’m sorry. I can’t resist. This setup is just *too* perfect… I’m assuming it’s hot outside, but I’m inside. I have seventy five fans. Het has no chance ; ) At last count I believe you had more than seventy-five fans, just counting the wimmen; are you saying Lyle, the "het," has no chance?

Grrrrr. HEAT. HEAT has no chance! And even that isn’t true. The seventy sixth fan, the ceiling unit above my desk, needed to be cleaned, and so do the carpets, so I just finished cleaning tha fan and the carpet in my ‘office’(which is really the dining area that we don’t use, preferring the living room), so I am pretty hot. And I have a blacony to do, two bikes, a closet to rearrange so the bikes can fit into it and after that is done, the rest of the living room carpet. Thank god I got the laundry done yesterday evening. Anyway, heat got a foot hold, somehow. The fan above me I almost never use, but still with all it’s grime and grease gone, it seems to be working really nicely. Probably more info than you needed, huh? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – azure, listening to Ann Reed — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: http://asarian-host.org/emailform.html

Response:

Hi polly Just wanted to let you know it was not me who posted this. Both Saab and Crisis are also currently using my account. But how are ya grrlllllll! Panther

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I like what you have to say here Panther. For me caring is something more general. I can care for a myriad of people I dont know, care about the state of affairs of things I am not involed w/. Identify w/ folks I don’t know… Maybe some of it is symantics. I think if I didn’t have caring I would be devoid of hope. I feel yuck & lost enough. caring about others can give me some meaning in life when I can’t seem to care much about myself. polly wog x-no-archive: yes No actually she said it in part about caring for people in general – it was a question of caring and she likened it to giving as in charities – like so….. She also was not attacked – she was disagreed with – there is a difference. I found her reply sad and lonely. However there are those who feel the same as she does and certainly have every right to do so. Caring is a thing that is very individual – as is giving – or loving. We each do it differently I think. And some of us don’t do it for various reasons – safety I think most times. I think it is the degree to which you do it and what meaning you put on caring. I care if an old man in a store falls and hurts his knee and I will stop to help him out of that caring – same with a puppy or a kitten that is hurt. Its not investing my heart in their lives – its caring about them for a space of time they are in mine. Helping them. I can see why you feel as you do however, it is often a safety issue with people your own or how they affect you. That is caring – caring to me does not have as deep a connection as love – caring can be very fleeting and temporary and does not bring with the need for a personal connection at all. I care enough to leave a bathroom without water all over the place or if I use a bath oil to clean it out of the tub so someone doesn’t slip and hurt themselves. I care about the person who comes after me. I don’t have to have a connection nor take on their life to help them. If someone has a problem I can sit and talk about it with them and help them look at their options without making it my problem or my solution. I care about their feelings without taking on their problem. That is what caring is to me. A stronger connection with the additional act of trust would be something more. At least to me. Caring can be very general. More specific feelings to me would have another name and another level of connection. I think people are individual in that. I don’t believe that – at least that is not true for me. You have to have Nor this – I think its an individual thing. I think many folks are able to read three lines and care. Some may read it and hit the next button. Neither is right or wrong – its just a difference in people. To me – not being affected when someone expresses pain, at least to some degree, is not possible. How I give voice to that depends on who the person is and where I am at the time in my emotional world. To me caring does not necessitate knowning someone. I care about starving children – I don’t know them indiviudally. To you. I think we each have our own definitions of these feelings. For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: http://asarian-host.org/emailform.html and the greatest of these is love

Response:

In both groups, the only real obligation to a new poster is not to hurt them. And, actually, that’s not really an obligation either.

I guess I’m talking about a moral obligation, or what I think should be one, assuming the new poster is someone genuine and not just some troll looking for kicks. This is Usenet, so there are almost no limitations on what anybody can say to anybody about anything. I agree with it being a moral obligation, and would like to see it used generally, but it’s not a practical limit.

No. It isn’t. In the real world, you have to deal with assholes, and you have to deal with people not loving every single aspect of your being. That’s another thing I think gets down to survivor stuff. There is a mindest among some people here who feel no criticism of any kind must be brooked because the person was at one time criticized and abused, so you must, to help them heal and feel safe, love respect and accept every single fiber of their being and not speak of those things you cannot accept. I don’t think you do anyone any favors that way. I think that part of healing should be being able to both function in the real world and develop mature, adult relationships and to do both, you have to learn how to handle criticism and the notion that not everything about you is respectable or loveable. That’s something that I keep jumping on, I know, but it’s one of the facts of life about here that I don’t see a huge concensus acceptance of. I see a desire on the part of some (and I don’t have specific people here in mind, but I’ve seen it stated many different times by many different people, including me) to pretend that this place is what someone or the other would wish it to be, and to perhaps punish those who will not play by those rules.

Oh boy do we agree on this. This is a forum that functions more directly on choices made in moments than much of any other forum anyone can be in — any of us can elect spontaneously to never come back here and read anything here ever again and none of us would ever have to even wander by it again even once. Or we can stop reading a thread, or stop reading anything said by an individual, or whatever. We can post or not post anything we wish.

I agree. I’ve said this more times than I can count. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, sorry. Beating my old drums again. Take care, Blain — http://www.blainn.cc/abuse/

Response:

That’s so unrealistic, too and plays into a really unhealthy pathology. Ironically, it is the same kind of denial and avoidance pathology that so many of us complain in in our abusers. Fact is, we are an angry group for the most part. Some people sublimate that, others embrace it, some have developed alters to handle it and some just can’t feel it at all. But for the most part, we are an angry group. To browbeat someone for expressing that anger, whether it is in the more acceptable form of ‘gee golly whilakers such and so I sure wish you wouldn’t do that and btw, want a coke and a flower?’ or my preferred method of saying ‘hey butthead, get your head out of your rear’ is ridiculous and dishonest. Conflict will happen. It all comes part and parcel with who we are and where we all come from. How you handle it may vary, but it is one thing we all have in common. Obviously that isn’t the case. I can understand the expectation, but it will never be a therapeutic environment, and though some people find it to be and others find it not to be, that really isn’t a reasonable expectation.

You can’t really heal, imo, until you work through the anger. That just seems impossible to me. I know some people cringe when they are confronted with anger, but some of us cringe when we can’t express it. And it is far healthy to express it and deal with it than to hold it in and pretend it ain’t there. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It certainly can be a supportive environment. Or not. It depends where you are sitting, i suppose. It’s different things to different people. Just like life. jean Take care, Blain — http://www.blainn.cc/abuse/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jean said something about you don’t care about people you just met online after reading three or four lines from them, and of course she was immediately attacked, but I agree with her. Well – of course you do! How could anyone honestly say any different? Although I did read Tide’s response, and I know what he was saying too. When I said you were attacked, I wasn’t referring to Tide. Oh sheeeeit, liz, i know that! *wink wink*

I know. Just clarifying lest anyone else take that ball and run with it.

I’m assuming it’s hot outside, but I’m inside. I have seventy five fans. Het has no chance ; ) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think i’ll save this one in my drafts folder for later. ) jean thanks liz, jean

Response:

Jean said something about you don’t care about people you just met online after reading three or four lines from them, and of course she was immediately attacked, but I agree with her. To really care about someone, you have to invest your heart. If we invested our hearts in every single person we met, we would be constantly screwed and go insane. There’s no real way to do that. You can meet somebody, and wish them well, sympathize with their problems, feel concern for them, but what I think Jean was saying and I agree with her is that they do not immediately become part of your inner cricle of people you trust or would be able to reach past your own pain to get to, you know what I mean? To really care about someone, you have to know them. You have to have more from them than three lines in a ng. You can’t know someone from three lines in a ng. And feeling concern for them, the natural empathy most people have for other living beings is not the same thing.

Response:

Jean said something about you don’t care about people you just met online after reading three or four lines from them, and of course she was immediately attacked, but I agree with her.

Well – of course you do! How could anyone honestly say any different? Although I did read Tide’s response, and I know what he was saying too. To be honest, I don’t feel the need to reach out to every person that posts here, but i can honestly say that there is no one that I haven’t engaged with on this board whom i dislike. In order for me to dislike someone, i have to know them first. :) To really care about someone, you have to invest your heart. If we invested our hearts in every single person we met, we would be constantly screwed and go insane. There’s no real way to do that.

Absolutely. You can meet somebody, and wish them well, sympathize with their problems, feel concern for them, but what I think Jean was saying and I agree with her is that they do not immediately become part of your inner cricle of people you trust or would be able to reach past your own pain to get to, you know what I mean? To really care about someone, you have to know them. You have to have more from them than three lines in a ng. You can’t know someone from three lines in a ng. And feeling concern for them, the natural empathy most people have for other living beings is not the same thing.

No, but i think that is what dave was trying to say. I’m not sure. I have alot of respect for dave, and note that people that are generally more emotionally detached than i am have an easier time with this general empathy to humanity thing. I think that may be where our difference in viewpoints lie – the other differing viewpoint i, of course, instantaneously dismissed as irrelevant. thanks liz, jean

Response:

When I said you were attacked, I wasn’t referring to Tide. To be honest, I don’t feel the need to reach out to every person that posts here, but i can honestly say that there is no one that I haven’t engaged with on this board whom i dislike. In order for me to dislike someone, i have to know them first. :)

I don’t feel that need either. God help me if I ever become stretched that thin. I just don’t have an umlimited supply of stuff, and it can get really wearing after a while. There have been people I have *engaged* here that I came to like a lot. And others whom I dislike intensely, based on how well I have come to know them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To really care about someone, you have to invest your heart. If we invested our hearts in every single person we met, we would be constantly screwed and go insane. There’s no real way to do that. Absolutely. You can meet somebody, and wish them well, sympathize with their problems, feel concern for them, but what I think Jean was saying and I agree with her is that they do not immediately become part of your inner cricle of people you trust or would be able to reach past your own pain to get to, you know what I mean? To really care about someone, you have to know them. You have to have more from them than three lines in a ng. You can’t know someone from three lines in a ng. And feeling concern for them, the natural empathy most people have for other living beings is not the same thing. No, but i think that is what dave was trying to say. I’m not sure. I have alot of respect for dave, and note that people that are generally more emotionally detached than i am have an easier time with this general empathy to humanity thing. I think that may be where our difference in viewpoints lie – the other differing viewpoint i, of course, instantaneously dismissed as irrelevant.

Well, you know how I feel about the whole sweetness and light, hand the world a coke and a smile, join hands and let us sing unto the heavens, routine. Honestly, I think people who swear they care about everyone are either lying to us or themselves, or both. And I think that mindset has a lot to do with survivor stuff…it’s just another reaction. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thanks liz, jean

Response:

Jean said something about you don’t care about people you just met online after reading three or four lines from them, and of course she was immediately attacked, but I agree with her. Liz, do you see a disagreement as an attack in every case? I read the posts and didn’t see anything *attacking* Jean, but trying to figure out the point she was making and look at what was said from another angle.

hiya dorothy, i know you have been reading here for some time, so i’m not going to go at you with the history angle, but sincerely – did you really see no attack? Read on in the thread. Pay careful attention to what is said and the way it is said. Keep in mind that when someone who hates your guts puts on a facade of syrupy care and concern over your "sad and lonely" qualities, I would deduce that what is actually being given is not concern, but faux pity, and it is given with the intent to hurt, not to heal. Just a thought. Abuse comes in many forms. Sometimes things are not obvious, as abusers have a habit of choosing their words carefully, very very carefully, but the message is loud and clear for those of us who are familiar with the language. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To really care about someone, you have to invest your heart. So maybe we need a different word for what we are offering in answering a newbie’s post to the forum? I would be interested to hear what you might suggest that people say that would imply the kind of empathy and concern that I saw in the words: "I will listen and I care." If we invested our hearts in every single person we met, we would be constantly screwed and go insane. There’s no real way to do that. You can meet somebody, and wish them well, sympathize with their problems, feel concern for them, but what I think Jean was saying and I agree with her is that they do not immediately become part of your inner cricle of people you trust or would be able to reach past your own pain to get to, you know what I mean? I agree with that, but do you think that this is what was being offered in the post she answered? To really care about someone, you have to know them. You have to have more from them than three lines in a ng. You can’t know someone from three lines in a ng. And feeling concern for them, the natural empathy most people have for other living beings is not the same thing. OK. I agree, but can we get past that and talk about what words people think are helpful when trying to express the concern for a new person who posts in aar?

…but dorothy, was that the discussion? It wasn’t what i was talking about. I understand that you think trying to express concern for a new poster in aar is important. I admire you for that. I sometimes respond to a new poster, welcome to aar and all of that, but that’s rare. It doesn’t interest me - i’m interested in the meatier discussions. There are people here who welcome newcomers without fail, and it’s good of them to do it, too. It isn’t the kind of thing i do, dorothy. And by the way in case you are thinking what an uncaring sociopath that jean is

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jean said something about you don’t care about people you just met online after reading three or four lines from them, and of course she was immediately attacked, but I agree with her. Well – of course you do! How could anyone honestly say any different? Although I did read Tide’s response, and I know what he was saying too. When I said you were attacked, I wasn’t referring to Tide.

Oh sheeeeit, liz, i know that! *wink wink* – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To be honest, I don’t feel the need to reach out to every person that posts here, but i can honestly say that there is no one that I haven’t engaged with on this board whom i dislike. In order for me to dislike someone, i have to know them first. :) I don’t feel that need either. God help me if I ever become stretched that thin. I just don’t have an umlimited supply of stuff, and it can get really wearing after a while. There have been people I have *engaged* here that I came to like a lot. And others whom I dislike intensely, based on how well I have come to know them. To really care about someone, you have to invest your heart. If we invested our hearts in every single person we met, we would be constantly screwed and go insane. There’s no real way to do that. Absolutely. You can meet somebody, and wish them well, sympathize with their problems, feel concern for them, but what I think Jean was saying and I agree with her is that they do not immediately become part of your inner cricle of people you trust or would be able to reach past your own pain to get to, you know what I mean? To really care about someone, you have to know them. You have to have more from them than three lines in a ng. You can’t know someone from three lines in a ng. And feeling concern for them, the natural empathy most people have for other living beings is not the same thing. No, but i think that is what dave was trying to say. I’m not sure. I have alot of respect for dave, and note that people that are generally more emotionally detached than i am have an easier time with this general empathy to humanity thing. I think that may be where our difference in viewpoints lie – the other differing viewpoint i, of course, instantaneously dismissed as irrelevant. Well, you know how I feel about the whole sweetness and light, hand the world a coke and a smile, join hands and let us sing unto the heavens, routine. Honestly, I think people who swear they care about everyone are either lying to us or themselves, or both. And I think that mindset has a lot to do with survivor stuff…it’s just another reaction.

Ooooh, that’s a great point, and if it wasn’t so hot and muggy here at the moment, i might even have the brain power to address it. I think i’ll save this one in my drafts folder for later. ) jean – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thanks liz, jean

Response:

In both groups, the only real obligation to a new poster is not to hurt them.

And, actually, that’s not really an obligation either. This is Usenet, so there are almost no limitations on what anybody can say to anybody about anything. I agree with it being a moral obligation, and would like to see it used generally, but it’s not a practical limit. That’s something that I keep jumping on, I know, but it’s one of the facts of life about here that I don’t see a huge concensus acceptance of. I see a desire on the part of some (and I don’t have specific people here in mind, but I’ve seen it stated many different times by many different people, including me) to pretend that this place is what someone or the other would wish it to be, and to perhaps punish those who will not play by those rules. This is a forum that functions more directly on choices made in moments than much of any other forum anyone can be in — any of us can elect spontaneously to never come back here and read anything here ever again and none of us would ever have to even wander by it again even once. Or we can stop reading a thread, or stop reading anything said by an individual, or whatever. We can post or not post anything we wish. Oh, sorry. Beating my old drums again. Take care, Blain — http://www.blainn.cc/abuse/

Response:

I like what you have to say here Panther. For me caring is something more general. I can care for a myriad of people I dont know, care about the state of affairs of things I am not involed w/. Identify w/ folks I don’t know… Maybe some of it is symantics. I think if I didn’t have caring I would be devoid of hope. I feel yuck & lost enough. caring about others can give me some meaning in life when I can’t seem to care much about myself. polly wog x-no-archive: yes No actually she said it in part about caring for people in general – it was a question of caring and she likened it to giving as in charities – like so….. She also was not attacked – she was disagreed with – there is a difference. I found her reply sad and lonely. However there are those who feel the same as she does and certainly have every right to do so. Caring is a thing that is very individual – as is giving – or loving. We each do it differently I think. And some of us don’t do it for various reasons – safety I think most times. I think it is the degree to which you do it and what meaning you put on caring. I care if an old man in a store falls and hurts his knee and I will stop to help him out of that caring – same with a puppy or a kitten that is hurt. Its not investing my heart in their lives – its caring about them for a space of time they are in mine. Helping them. I can see why you feel as you do however, it is often a safety issue with people your own or how they affect you. That is caring – caring to me does not have as deep a connection as love – caring can be very fleeting and temporary and does not bring with the need for a personal connection at all. I care enough to leave a bathroom without water all over the place or if I use a bath oil to clean it out of the tub so someone doesn’t slip and hurt themselves. I care about the person who comes after me. I don’t have to have a connection nor take on their life to help them. If someone has a problem I can sit and talk about it with them and help them look at their options without making it my problem or my solution. I care about their feelings without taking on their problem. That is what caring is to me. A stronger connection with the additional act of trust would be something more. At least to me. Caring can be very general. More specific feelings to me would have another name and another level of connection. I think people are individual in that. I don’t believe that – at least that is not true for me. You have to have Nor this – I think its an individual thing. I think many folks are able to read three lines and care. Some may read it and hit the next button. Neither is right or wrong – its just a difference in people. To me – not being affected when someone expresses pain, at least to some degree, is not possible. How I give voice to that depends on who the person is and where I am at the time in my emotional world. To me caring does not necessitate knowning someone. I care about starving children – I don’t know them indiviudally. To you. I think we each have our own definitions of these feelings. For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: http://asarian-host.org/emailform.html and the greatest of these is love

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In both groups, the only real obligation to a new poster is not to hurt them. And, actually, that’s not really an obligation either. This is Usenet, so there are almost no limitations on what anybody can say to anybody about anything. I agree with it being a moral obligation, and would like to see it used generally, but it’s not a practical limit. That’s something that I keep jumping on, I know, but it’s one of the facts of life about here that I don’t see a huge concensus acceptance of. I see a desire on the part of some (and I don’t have specific people here in mind, but I’ve seen it stated many different times by many different people, including me) to pretend that this place is what someone or the other would wish it to be, and to perhaps punish those who will not play by those rules. This is a forum that functions more directly on choices made in moments than much of any other forum anyone can be in — any of us can elect spontaneously to never come back here and read anything here ever again and none of us would ever have to even wander by it again even once. Or we can stop reading a thread, or stop reading anything said by an individual, or whatever. We can post or not post anything we wish. Oh, sorry. Beating my old drums again.

Hello Blain, it’s nice to see you back around these parts. I remember when you left – if i recall, you were a little disappointed by apathy about some stuff you were involved in – i always felt bad about that. Anyway, it’s nice to see you again. I just have to chime in with my agreement on the above. It seems to me that, with this group in particular, and the subject matter we discuss, there is an expectation of – what – compassion, maybe? Acceptance? A lack of anger, a lack of conflict? Obviously that isn’t the case. I can understand the expectation, but it will never be a therapeutic environment, and though some people find it to be and others find it not to be, that really isn’t a reasonable expectation. It certainly can be a supportive environment. Or not. It depends where you are sitting, i suppose. It’s different things to different people. Just like life. jean – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Take care, Blain — http://www.blainn.cc/abuse/

Response:

No. I read the posts and didn’t see anything *attacking* Jean, but trying to figure out the point she was making and look at what was said from another angle.

I see you saying you don’t feel Jean was *attacked*, but instead they were trying to figure out the point she was making. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To really care about someone, you have to invest your heart. So maybe we need a different word for what we are offering in answering a newbie’s post to the forum? I would be interested to hear what you might suggest that people say that would imply the kind of empathy and concern that I saw in the words: "I will listen and I care." If we invested our hearts in every single person we met, we would be constantly screwed and go insane. There’s no real way to do that. You can meet somebody, and wish them well, sympathize with their problems, feel concern for them, but what I think Jean was saying and I agree with her is that they do not immediately become part of your inner cricle of people you trust or would be able to reach past your own pain to get to, you know what I mean? I agree with that, but do you think that this is what was being offered in the post she answered?

I think Jean can offer any damn thing she wants, whether it is scorn or empathy for anyone’s post. I think Jean is a grown woman who is more than capable of forming her own opinions and choosing to let who she wants in or extend a hand to whom she wishes. I don’t think she or anyone else has an obligation at all with regard to any new poster except not to hurt them if they can. To really care about someone, you have to know them. You have to have more from them than three lines in a ng. You can’t know someone from three lines in a ng. And feeling concern for them, the natural empathy most people have for other living beings is not the same thing. OK. I agree, but can we get past that and talk about what words people think are helpful when trying to express the concern for a new person who posts in aar?

You can discuss what you wish, Dorothy. I disagree that it is a semantic argument. I disagree that we all need to be helpful. I think those people who want to be best buds with everyone they meet can do that, and those people who are more reserved and save their friendship for the people they have learned to trust and respect can do that. In both groups, the only real obligation to a new poster is not to hurt them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dorothy

Response:

Jean said something about you don’t care about people you just met online after reading three or four lines from them, and of course she was immediately attacked, but I agree with her.

Liz, do you see a disagreement as an attack in every case? I read the posts and didn’t see anything *attacking* Jean, but trying to figure out the point she was making and look at what was said from another angle. To really care about someone, you have to invest your heart.

So maybe we need a different word for what we are offering in answering a newbie’s post to the forum? I would be interested to hear what you might suggest that people say that would imply the kind of empathy and concern that I saw in the words: "I will listen and I care." If we invested our hearts in every single person we met, we would be constantly screwed and go insane. There’s no real way to do that. You can meet somebody, and wish them well, sympathize with their problems, feel concern for them, but what I think Jean was saying and I agree with her is that they do not immediately become part of your inner cricle of people you trust or would be able to reach past your own pain to get to, you know what I mean?

I agree with that, but do you think that this is what was being offered in the post she answered? To really care about someone, you have to know them. You have to have more from them than three lines in a ng. You can’t know someone from three lines in a ng. And feeling concern for them, the natural empathy most people have for other living beings is not the same thing.

OK. I agree, but can we get past that and talk about what words people think are helpful when trying to express the concern for a new person who posts in aar? Dorothy —–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.2 for non-commercial use

Response:

I can't believe it!!

admin — Mon, 08 May 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I’m trying to develop more varied interests. Riding crop would be optional of course. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aww shoot? You like ‘em tattooed and pierced???? ; ) Daisy Aww shoot. Nope, not this woman!! :) Daisy Kewl, getting tatooed and pierced Daisy? (As everyone knows Marilyn Manson is the skinny kid with glasses from wonder years.) My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!! Daisy — "Don’t spit into the well, you may have to drink the water" old Polish proverb ICQ# 35013944 — "Don’t spit into the well, you may have to drink the water" old Polish proverb ICQ# 35013944

– "Don’t spit into the well, you may have to drink the water" old Polish proverb ICQ# 35013944

Response:

OK here is the naive Daisy showing here…what is Holst??

Gustav Holst, who is best known for his musical suite, The Planets. Graet classical stuff. Feel free to give it a listen. Daisy My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!! Indeed. It’s not my cup of tea, but so what ? That only means that it’s my choice not to listen to it. If you like it, then you like it, and that’s all that there is to it. What if your son started to listen to Holst ?

Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness " David Gelernter, " 1939 "

Response:

Hey I like classical music….I’ll do that thanks! Holst, Marilyn Manson…..hey I’m easy!! (not that way!!) Daisy alt.support.divorce Who’s Who: http://www.geocities.com/asddaisy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK here is the naive Daisy showing here…what is Holst?? Gustav Holst, who is best known for his musical suite, The Planets. Graet classical stuff. Feel free to give it a listen. Daisy My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!! Indeed. It’s not my cup of tea, but so what ? That only means that it’s my choice not to listen to it. If you like it, then you like it, and that’s all that there is to it. What if your son started to listen to Holst ?

Response:

Aww shoot? You like ‘em tattooed and pierced???? ; ) Daisy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aww shoot. Nope, not this woman!! :) Daisy Kewl, getting tatooed and pierced Daisy? (As everyone knows Marilyn Manson is the skinny kid with glasses from wonder years.) My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!! Daisy — "Don’t spit into the well, you may have to drink the water" old Polish proverb ICQ# 35013944 — "Don’t spit into the well, you may have to drink the water" old Polish proverb ICQ# 35013944

Response:

I guess it depends on who I am talking to as to whether I turned out OK!!! Daisy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – define ok hee hee hee hehe…if I remember right during MY teenage years it was SEX, DRUGS and ROCK AND ROLL. I think I turned out OK!! :) Daisy Thanks Poopei. No disrepect for Daisy, I know from her posts she loves her son intensely! But, the lyrics are NOT what I would suggest for anyone, especially a child. Everyone talks about legislation to stop school violence, but no body bothers to do anthing at the source "at home". With kids listening to this stuff and we wonder why it occurs? I admit that political and social statement have their place in music. Hell, listen to the protest songs I grew up with in the 60s. But too much of todays stuff If you can’t hum the melody I don’t call it music.) just supports destructive thought and behavior with no justification or consideration for consequences, other than "You don’t approve so it must be great, I don’t give a damned about anyone else, and besides I think it feels good". Violence for the pleasure of it, rape, drugs. I think are occasions that we have to be a parent and not a buddy and say NO. This is one I tried to say NO to. I know I didn’t have control over my children when they weren’t home. But they knew where I stood and why. JMHO Ken My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!! Daisy I cant beelebe u wood listin to suche filth an allowe yer kid to listin to it to!! HOwe olde iz yer kid? For aneewon hoo haznt herd M Mansin. Hear ar sum of teh lyricss. Grate rolee madil fer chillin eveewhere. Lunch Box: On we plow The big bully try to stick his finger in my chest Try to tell me, tell me he’s the best But I don’t really give a good goddamn cause I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I wanna grow up I wanna be a big rock and roll star I wanna grow up I wanna be So no one fucks with me I got the pencils in my pocket, try to put me down Wanna go out, gotta get out To the playground, gonna throw down at the playground I wanna go out Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Pow pow pow, pow pow pow, pow pow pow, pow pow pow I wanna grow up I wanna be a big rock and roll star I wanna grow up I wanna be So no one fucks with me — "Don’t spit into the well, you may have to drink the water" old Polish proverb ICQ# 35013944

Response:

Aw Ken that was so sweet!! Thanks you bunches!!!! You’re a special man in my book!! ((hugs)) Daisy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think you turned out pretty well too. And I’m sure glad you did. Your replys to my post are really important to me. If I thought you weren’t "well adjusted" I would just blow them off. But you are, and I don’t. Isn’t it great to be able to dialog and disagree without animosity and hostility? Wish I could do that at home. One of the contribing factors to the demise of my marriage. And you’re right the tunes "we" listed too had their own rebellious messages. But it isn’t the words themselves that makes me object, so much as it is, the legitimization of the callous, openingly hostile, self serving detachment, I think. In the 60s, yes the songs trumpeted free love, getting high, rock and roll, but the message behind the words didn’t try to "exempt" us from our social responsibilities, it just asked us to look at them from a different angle and get involved, vs drop out and kill someone. And (in general) the worst thing that could happen with the sex was pregnancy or maybe the clap. Today it’s AIDS. And only a real few people hung up on LSD or heroin. Mostly pot, a few pills, or cheap wine. Today we have kids 9 to 12 with crack, crank, and other chemicals. We have kids being raised in crack houses or meth labs homes. We had a methlab here next door to a day care center. Had another blowup with the kids in residence inside. And most of the rock and roll was aimed at burning your draft card, wearing your hair long, or going without a bra. (I didn’t really mind this one so much, being a guy ) NOT shooting your teachers, classmates, parents or a policeman. Daisy, with a caring mom like you, I know your son will be fine. Although I have concern for both of you, in your time of chaos, you are and have been a good parent. I agree thats whats our young people need. It’s the other sons and daughters that "don’t" have a caring parent. The kids that either one or both (if they have two parents) parents are too busy with life, carreer, sucess, the cabin on the lake, lover across town, too drunk, too defeated ect ect to give a damn about the kids on a daily basis. These kids, the ones with a huge hole in their life, begging for someone to care. They are listening to this stuff (and absorbing the emotion ,or lack of it) also, and are the ones that worry me. If we learn nothing else from Columbine, all other episodes of severe child violence, and gang membership, we should learn that what is taking place is a cry of desperaton, a cry for some to come to their emotional rescue. You know the pain and abandonment we are feeling. Theirs isn’t so much different. You know I wish nothing but the best for you and your son. Thanks for being a great mom. Hope he does somthing really special for you next weekend. And in advance "Happy Mothers Day" from a dad that knows how important Moms are. Ken hehe…if I remember right during MY teenage years it was SEX, DRUGS and ROCK AND ROLL. I think I turned out OK!! :) Daisy Thanks Poopei. No disrepect for Daisy, I know from her posts she loves her son intensely! But, the lyrics are NOT what I would suggest for anyone, especially a child. Everyone talks about legislation to stop school violence, but no body bothers to do anthing at the source "at home". With kids listening to this stuff and we wonder why it occurs? I admit that political and social statement have their place in music. Hell, listen to the protest songs I grew up with in the 60s. But too much of todays stuff If you can’t hum the melody I don’t call it music.) just supports destructive thought and behavior with no justification or consideration for consequences, other than "You don’t approve so it must be great, I don’t give a damned about anyone else, and besides I think it feels good". Violence for the pleasure of it, rape, drugs. I think are occasions that we have to be a parent and not a buddy and say NO. This is one I tried to say NO to. I know I didn’t have control over my children when they weren’t home. But they knew where I stood and why. JMHO Ken My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!! Daisy I cant beelebe u wood listin to suche filth an allowe yer kid to listin to it to!! HOwe olde iz yer kid? For aneewon hoo haznt herd M Mansin. Hear ar sum of teh lyricss. Grate rolee madil fer chillin eveewhere. Lunch Box: On we plow The big bully try to stick his finger in my chest Try to tell me, tell me he’s the best But I don’t really give a good goddamn cause I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I wanna grow up I wanna be a big rock and roll star I wanna grow up I wanna be So no one fucks with me I got the pencils in my pocket, try to put me down Wanna go out, gotta get out To the playground, gonna throw down at the playground I wanna go out Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Pow pow pow, pow pow pow, pow pow pow, pow pow pow I wanna grow up I wanna be a big rock and roll star I wanna grow up I wanna be So no one fucks with me

Response:

define ok hee hee hee – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hehe…if I remember right during MY teenage years it was SEX, DRUGS and ROCK AND ROLL. I think I turned out OK!! :) Daisy Thanks Poopei. No disrepect for Daisy, I know from her posts she loves her son intensely! But, the lyrics are NOT what I would suggest for anyone, especially a child. Everyone talks about legislation to stop school violence, but no body bothers to do anthing at the source "at home". With kids listening to this stuff and we wonder why it occurs? I admit that political and social statement have their place in music. Hell, listen to the protest songs I grew up with in the 60s. But too much of todays stuff If you can’t hum the melody I don’t call it music.) just supports destructive thought and behavior with no justification or consideration for consequences, other than "You don’t approve so it must be great, I don’t give a damned about anyone else, and besides I think it feels good". Violence for the pleasure of it, rape, drugs. I think are occasions that we have to be a parent and not a buddy and say NO. This is one I tried to say NO to. I know I didn’t have control over my children when they weren’t home. But they knew where I stood and why. JMHO Ken My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!! Daisy I cant beelebe u wood listin to suche filth an allowe yer kid to listin to it to!! HOwe olde iz yer kid? For aneewon hoo haznt herd M Mansin. Hear ar sum of teh lyricss. Grate rolee madil fer chillin eveewhere. Lunch Box: On we plow The big bully try to stick his finger in my chest Try to tell me, tell me he’s the best But I don’t really give a good goddamn cause I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I wanna grow up I wanna be a big rock and roll star I wanna grow up I wanna be So no one fucks with me I got the pencils in my pocket, try to put me down Wanna go out, gotta get out To the playground, gonna throw down at the playground I wanna go out Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Pow pow pow, pow pow pow, pow pow pow, pow pow pow I wanna grow up I wanna be a big rock and roll star I wanna grow up I wanna be So no one fucks with me

– "Don’t spit into the well, you may have to drink the water" old Polish proverb ICQ# 35013944

Response:

My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!!

Indeed. It’s not my cup of tea, but so what ? That only means that it’s my choice not to listen to it. If you like it, then you like it, and that’s all that there is to it. What if your son started to listen to Holst ?

Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness " David Gelernter, " 1939 "

Response:

OK here is the naive Daisy showing here…what is Holst?? Daisy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!! Indeed. It’s not my cup of tea, but so what ? That only means that it’s my choice not to listen to it. If you like it, then you like it, and that’s all that there is to it. What if your son started to listen to Holst ?

Response:

I think you turned out pretty well too. And I’m sure glad you did. Your replys to my post are really important to me. If I thought you weren’t "well adjusted" I would just blow them off. But you are, and I don’t. Isn’t it great to be able to dialog and disagree without animosity and hostility? Wish I could do that at home. One of the contribing factors to the demise of my marriage. And you’re right the tunes "we" listed too had their own rebellious messages. But it isn’t the words themselves that makes me object, so much as it is, the legitimization of the callous, openingly hostile, self serving detachment, I think. In the 60s, yes the songs trumpeted free love, getting high, rock and roll, but the message behind the words didn’t try to "exempt" us from our social responsibilities, it just asked us to look at them from a different angle and get involved, vs drop out and kill someone. And (in general) the worst thing that could happen with the sex was pregnancy or maybe the clap. Today it’s AIDS. And only a real few people hung up on LSD or heroin. Mostly pot, a few pills, or cheap wine. Today we have kids 9 to 12 with crack, crank, and other chemicals. We have kids being raised in crack houses or meth labs homes. We had a methlab here next door to a day care center. Had another blowup with the kids in residence inside. And most of the rock and roll was aimed at burning your draft card, wearing your hair long, or going without a bra. (I didn’t really mind this one so much, being a guy ) NOT shooting your teachers, classmates, parents or a policeman. Daisy, with a caring mom like you, I know your son will be fine. Although I have concern for both of you, in your time of chaos, you are and have been a good parent. I agree thats whats our young people need. It’s the other sons and daughters that "don’t" have a caring parent. The kids that either one or both (if they have two parents) parents are too busy with life, carreer, sucess, the cabin on the lake, lover across town, too drunk, too defeated ect ect to give a damn about the kids on a daily basis. These kids, the ones with a huge hole in their life, begging for someone to care. They are listening to this stuff (and absorbing the emotion ,or lack of it) also, and are the ones that worry me. If we learn nothing else from Columbine, all other episodes of severe child violence, and gang membership, we should learn that what is taking place is a cry of desperaton, a cry for some to come to their emotional rescue. You know the pain and abandonment we are feeling. Theirs isn’t so much different. You know I wish nothing but the best for you and your son. Thanks for being a great mom. Hope he does somthing really special for you next weekend. And in advance "Happy Mothers Day" from a dad that knows how important Moms are. Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hehe…if I remember right during MY teenage years it was SEX, DRUGS and ROCK AND ROLL. I think I turned out OK!! :) Daisy Thanks Poopei. No disrepect for Daisy, I know from her posts she loves her son intensely! But, the lyrics are NOT what I would suggest for anyone, especially a child. Everyone talks about legislation to stop school violence, but no body bothers to do anthing at the source "at home". With kids listening to this stuff and we wonder why it occurs? I admit that political and social statement have their place in music. Hell, listen to the protest songs I grew up with in the 60s. But too much of todays stuff If you can’t hum the melody I don’t call it music.) just supports destructive thought and behavior with no justification or consideration for consequences, other than "You don’t approve so it must be great, I don’t give a damned about anyone else, and besides I think it feels good". Violence for the pleasure of it, rape, drugs. I think are occasions that we have to be a parent and not a buddy and say NO. This is one I tried to say NO to. I know I didn’t have control over my children when they weren’t home. But they knew where I stood and why. JMHO Ken My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!! Daisy I cant beelebe u wood listin to suche filth an allowe yer kid to listin to it to!! HOwe olde iz yer kid? For aneewon hoo haznt herd M Mansin. Hear ar sum of teh lyricss. Grate rolee madil fer chillin eveewhere. Lunch Box: On we plow The big bully try to stick his finger in my chest Try to tell me, tell me he’s the best But I don’t really give a good goddamn cause I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I wanna grow up I wanna be a big rock and roll star I wanna grow up I wanna be So no one fucks with me I got the pencils in my pocket, try to put me down Wanna go out, gotta get out To the playground, gonna throw down at the playground I wanna go out Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Pow pow pow, pow pow pow, pow pow pow, pow pow pow I wanna grow up I wanna be a big rock and roll star I wanna grow up I wanna be So no one fucks with me

Response:

hehe…if I remember right during MY teenage years it was SEX, DRUGS and ROCK AND ROLL. I think I turned out OK!! :) Daisy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Poopei. No disrepect for Daisy, I know from her posts she loves her son intensely! But, the lyrics are NOT what I would suggest for anyone, especially a child. Everyone talks about legislation to stop school violence, but no body bothers to do anthing at the source "at home". With kids listening to this stuff and we wonder why it occurs? I admit that political and social statement have their place in music. Hell, listen to the protest songs I grew up with in the 60s. But too much of todays stuff If you can’t hum the melody I don’t call it music.) just supports destructive thought and behavior with no justification or consideration for consequences, other than "You don’t approve so it must be great, I don’t give a damned about anyone else, and besides I think it feels good". Violence for the pleasure of it, rape, drugs. I think are occasions that we have to be a parent and not a buddy and say NO. This is one I tried to say NO to. I know I didn’t have control over my children when they weren’t home. But they knew where I stood and why. JMHO Ken My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!! Daisy I cant beelebe u wood listin to suche filth an allowe yer kid to listin to it to!! HOwe olde iz yer kid? For aneewon hoo haznt herd M Mansin. Hear ar sum of teh lyricss. Grate rolee madil fer chillin eveewhere. Lunch Box: On we plow The big bully try to stick his finger in my chest Try to tell me, tell me he’s the best But I don’t really give a good goddamn cause I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I wanna grow up I wanna be a big rock and roll star I wanna grow up I wanna be So no one fucks with me I got the pencils in my pocket, try to put me down Wanna go out, gotta get out To the playground, gonna throw down at the playground I wanna go out Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Pow pow pow, pow pow pow, pow pow pow, pow pow pow I wanna grow up I wanna be a big rock and roll star I wanna grow up I wanna be So no one fucks with me

Response:

Which has been said about every generation’s music by the generation preceding it. I’m sure someone said the same thing about Mozart. For ever ‘bad’ kid you hear about there’s a hundred that are good. Even the ones the like Manson. TV ,music, internet etc do not determine how a child grows up, it’s mom and/or dad. My daughter likes marilyn manson, korn (she was even invited backstage at one of korns concerts) she’s also a member of 4h. My son like me, loves horror movies slasher, sci fi. He also ushers at his grandparents church, helps collect and count the offering. (Who knows someday It may be my son, the father) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Poopei. No disrepect for Daisy, I know from her posts she loves her son intensely! But, the lyrics are NOT what I would suggest for anyone, especially a child. Everyone talks about legislation to stop school violence, but no body bothers to do anthing at the source "at home". With kids listening to this stuff and we wonder why it occurs? I admit that political and social statement have their place in music. Hell, listen to the protest songs I grew up with in the 60s. But too much of todays stuff If you can’t hum the melody I don’t call it music.) just supports destructive thought and behavior with no justification or consideration for consequences, other than "You don’t approve so it must be great, I don’t give a damned about anyone else, and besides I think it feels good". Violence for the pleasure of it, rape, drugs. I think are occasions that we have to be a parent and not a buddy and say NO. This is one I tried to say NO to. I know I didn’t have control over my children when they weren’t home. But they knew where I stood and why. JMHO Ken My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!! Daisy I cant beelebe u wood listin to suche filth an allowe yer kid to listin to it to!! HOwe olde iz yer kid? For aneewon hoo haznt herd M Mansin. Hear ar sum of teh lyricss. Grate rolee madil fer chillin eveewhere. Lunch Box: On we plow The big bully try to stick his finger in my chest Try to tell me, tell me he’s the best But I don’t really give a good goddamn cause I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I wanna grow up I wanna be a big rock and roll star I wanna grow up I wanna be So no one fucks with me I got the pencils in my pocket, try to put me down Wanna go out, gotta get out To the playground, gonna throw down at the playground I wanna go out Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Pow pow pow, pow pow pow, pow pow pow, pow pow pow I wanna grow up I wanna be a big rock and roll star I wanna grow up I wanna be So no one fucks with me

– "Don’t spit into the well, you may have to drink the water" old Polish proverb ICQ# 35013944

Response:

Marilyn Manson is not too much different then Alice Cooper. Different generation is all. Not that there was much decent music done after 1965. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!! Daisy I cant beelebe u wood listin to suche filth an allowe yer kid to listin to it to!! HOwe olde iz yer kid? For aneewon hoo haznt herd M Mansin. Hear ar sum of teh lyricss. Grate rolee madil fer chillin eveewhere. Lunch Box: On we plow The big bully try to stick his finger in my chest Try to tell me, tell me he’s the best But I don’t really give a good goddamn cause I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I wanna grow up I wanna be a big rock and roll star I wanna grow up I wanna be So no one fucks with me I got the pencils in my pocket, try to put me down Wanna go out, gotta get out To the playground, gonna throw down at the playground I wanna go out Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Pow pow pow, pow pow pow, pow pow pow, pow pow pow I wanna grow up I wanna be a big rock and roll star I wanna grow up I wanna be So no one fucks with me

– "Don’t spit into the well, you may have to drink the water" old Polish proverb ICQ# 35013944

Response:

Aww shoot. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nope, not this woman!! :) Daisy Kewl, getting tatooed and pierced Daisy? (As everyone knows Marilyn Manson is the skinny kid with glasses from wonder years.) My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!! Daisy — "Don’t spit into the well, you may have to drink the water" old Polish proverb ICQ# 35013944

– "Don’t spit into the well, you may have to drink the water" old Polish proverb ICQ# 35013944

Response:

My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!! Daisy

I am a 32 year old and I also like listening to Marilyn Manson. Sure, some of the lyrics are offensive, but I don’t really listen for that. If you like the music, who cares? Greg Before you buy.

Response:

I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I feel if you are a good parent and your child is a good kid then I don’t see any harm in words on a tape. He probably hears these words everyday, but he knows by the way I raised him that I won’t put up with any bull I NEVER let my children listen to these things when they were small. But he is 17 now and can make those decisions himself. Of course he knows he does not play them when children are around! :) ((hugs)) Daisy

Response:

Thanks Poopei. No disrepect for Daisy, I know from her posts she loves her son intensely! But, the lyrics are NOT what I would suggest for anyone, especially a child. Everyone talks about legislation to stop school violence, but no body bothers to do anthing at the source "at home". With kids listening to this stuff and we wonder why it occurs? I admit that political and social statement have their place in music. Hell, listen to the protest songs I grew up with in the 60s. But too much of todays stuff If you can’t hum the melody I don’t call it music.) just supports destructive thought and behavior with no justification or consideration for consequences, other than "You don’t approve so it must be great, I don’t give a damned about anyone else, and besides I think it feels good". Violence for the pleasure of it, rape, drugs. I think are occasions that we have to be a parent and not a buddy and say NO. This is one I tried to say NO to. I know I didn’t have control over my children when they weren’t home. But they knew where I stood and why. JMHO Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!! Daisy I cant beelebe u wood listin to suche filth an allowe yer kid to listin to it to!! HOwe olde iz yer kid? For aneewon hoo haznt herd M Mansin. Hear ar sum of teh lyricss. Grate rolee madil fer chillin eveewhere. Lunch Box: On we plow The big bully try to stick his finger in my chest Try to tell me, tell me he’s the best But I don’t really give a good goddamn cause I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I wanna grow up I wanna be a big rock and roll star I wanna grow up I wanna be So no one fucks with me I got the pencils in my pocket, try to put me down Wanna go out, gotta get out To the playground, gonna throw down at the playground I wanna go out Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Pow pow pow, pow pow pow, pow pow pow, pow pow pow I wanna grow up I wanna be a big rock and roll star I wanna grow up I wanna be So no one fucks with me

Response:

Don’t feel to bad Daisy, I thought Madonna was the last singer I would care to her until I heard "Like a Prayer". LOL I actually opened my ears and mind to the chance that she does have talent. But Marilyn Manson? Maybe? Bildo

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!! Daisy

Response:

My son is 17 and an honor student…..was raised to know right from wrong, I have nothing to worry about in the least. Don’t be so damn judgemental. Daisy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!! Daisy I cant beelebe u wood listin to suche filth an allowe yer kid to listin to it to!! HOwe olde iz yer kid? For aneewon hoo haznt herd M Mansin. Hear ar sum of teh lyricss. Grate rolee madil fer chillin eveewhere. Lunch Box: On we plow The big bully try to stick his finger in my chest Try to tell me, tell me he’s the best But I don’t really give a good goddamn cause I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I wanna grow up I wanna be a big rock and roll star I wanna grow up I wanna be So no one fucks with me I got the pencils in my pocket, try to put me down Wanna go out, gotta get out To the playground, gonna throw down at the playground I wanna go out Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Pow pow pow, pow pow pow, pow pow pow, pow pow pow I wanna grow up I wanna be a big rock and roll star I wanna grow up I wanna be So no one fucks with me

Response:

Nope, not this woman!! :) Daisy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kewl, getting tatooed and pierced Daisy? (As everyone knows Marilyn Manson is the skinny kid with glasses from wonder years.) My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!! Daisy — "Don’t spit into the well, you may have to drink the water" old Polish proverb ICQ# 35013944

Response:

Kewl, getting tatooed and pierced Daisy? (As everyone knows Marilyn Manson is the skinny kid with glasses from wonder years.) My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!! Daisy

– "Don’t spit into the well, you may have to drink the water" old Polish proverb ICQ# 35013944

Response:

I’m taking my daughter to see Metallica, Korn, etc., for her birthday. I ordered the tickets and then immediately said "What the hell am I thinking?" She has no clue and will probably screech when she opens the gift. I’m not a big fan, but with the right earplugs, it’ll be fun.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nope, not this woman!! :) Daisy Kewl, getting tatooed and pierced Daisy? (As everyone knows Marilyn Manson is the skinny kid with glasses from wonder years.) My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!! Daisy — "Don’t spit into the well, you may have to drink the water" old Polish proverb ICQ# 35013944

Response:

My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!! Daisy

I cant beelebe u wood listin to suche filth an allowe yer kid to listin to it to!! HOwe olde iz yer kid? For aneewon hoo haznt herd M Mansin. Hear ar sum of teh lyricss. Grate rolee madil fer chillin eveewhere. Lunch Box: On we plow The big bully try to stick his finger in my chest Try to tell me, tell me he’s the best But I don’t really give a good goddamn cause I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I got my lunchbox and I’m armed real well I wanna grow up I wanna be a big rock and roll star I wanna grow up I wanna be So no one fucks with me I got the pencils in my pocket, try to put me down Wanna go out, gotta get out To the playground, gonna throw down at the playground I wanna go out Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Next motherfucker gonna get my metal Pow pow pow, pow pow pow, pow pow pow, pow pow pow I wanna grow up I wanna be a big rock and roll star I wanna grow up I wanna be So no one fucks with me

Response:

My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!! Daisy

Response:

My kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and I like it!!! YIKES!!

That’s what’s so funny about a lot of music, you listen to it and it’s only when you actually "see" the performer that you say "what???". Something about judging the book by it’s cover???…. — Joe

Response:

Music music music

admin — Mon, 14 Feb 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:31:26 -0500 (EST), damod…@webtv.net wrote:

Good luck Damo. Well just to confirm, i stink "after" badminton but whilst playing, i’m gradually getting a little better. example – i learned not to smash the damn thing all the time and do "clever" lob shots that "just" drop the other side of the net before the opponent can react But i’d rather be talking the meaning of life to my CPN having coffee afterwards though – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Next post from the ego driven and vain Damodara will be AFTER I play >again tomorrow night. >I have reclaimed my balance. >Although….I’m experiancing some positive symptoms……. >Must be the CIA controlled psychics or whateer…… >shrug. >Who knows right? >Space aliens it is maybe. >Shit maybe have a darn whole bloody chorus up there with me right? >Four part harmonies??? >So I’ll post when I return tomorrow evening. >Just to exhibit my vanity to my supprt group. >And I will…I will think of alt sz and how wonderful we all are. >Cept stephen stinks at badmitton I heard. >That ain’t true is it Stephen? >Okay so I’m deffinately up for this. >See yas… >Damo >P.S. >and I will be introduced as "Damo". >And you do all share in any glory I gather.

regards, Stephen "All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." — Arthur Schopenhauer

Response:

Hi Stephen, When I used to play badminton I used to be know for my little lob shots that would just clear the net. Those are the real finesse shots. Frank. Stephen wrote in message

news:dhiias4cth12b51cqa4tbtg0ov6ofg1bt4@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:31:26 -0500 (EST), damod…@webtv.net wrote: > Good luck Damo. > Well just to confirm, i stink "after" badminton > but whilst playing, i’m gradually getting a little better. > example – i learned not to smash the damn thing all the time and do > "clever" lob shots that "just" drop the other side of the net before > the opponent can react > But i’d rather be talking the meaning of life to my CPN having coffee > afterwards though > >Next post from the ego driven and vain Damodara will be AFTER I play > >again tomorrow night. > >I have reclaimed my balance. > >Although….I’m experiancing some positive symptoms……. > >Must be the CIA controlled psychics or whateer…… > >shrug. > >Who knows right? > >Space aliens it is maybe. > >Shit maybe have a darn whole bloody chorus up there with me right? > >Four part harmonies??? > >So I’ll post when I return tomorrow evening. > >Just to exhibit my vanity to my supprt group. > >And I will…I will think of alt sz and how wonderful we all are. > >Cept stephen stinks at badmitton I heard. > >That ain’t true is it Stephen? > >Okay so I’m deffinately up for this. > >See yas… > >Damo > >P.S. > >and I will be introduced as "Damo". > >And you do all share in any glory I gather. > regards, Stephen > "All truth passes through 3 stages. > First, it is ridiculed. > Second, it is violently opposed. > Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." > — Arthur Schopenhauer

Response:

I guess the most important developement tonight was a change in my perspective from grading myself and comparing others to a realization and feeling that I was simply another of the entertaners. I was much more candid and my ole’ friend and former agent/promotor of mine commented on my increase in "presence" on stage. So…..I’m not in a rush anynore. Won’t be shaking hands with the "promoter" I met week before last. Think I should just calm down…breath deep to moyself…and just keep gettng up on tuesday nights for a measely 15 minutes. Got the drug like energy surges especially afterwards. Had nice time. Didn’t have to win anything. Think I should just keep playing there for a while until I evolve a little more with this. This is whats happened. It ain’t a lot of glory but what there is can be passed around a litte before it melts. Need time to grow. I don’t want a serious gig. No. Not what I want to do yet. Damo

Response:

damod…@webtv.net wrote: > I guess the most important developement tonight was a change in my > perspective from grading myself and comparing others to a realization > and feeling that I was simply another of the entertaners. > I was much more candid and my ole’ friend and former agent/promotor of > mine commented on my increase in "presence" on stage. > So…..I’m not in a rush anynore. > Won’t be shaking hands with the "promoter" I met week before last. > Think I should just calm down…breath deep to moyself…and just keep > gettng up on tuesday nights for a measely 15 minutes. > Got the drug like energy surges especially afterwards. > Had nice time. > Didn’t have to win anything.

hey damo. im so happy that youre even doing it. i think its the coolest. what you wrote here made me think of some things……. i hope you dont mind me rambling about them….. i dont know if you remember that i was pretty deeply involved in the music scene with the grateful dead… i was pretty much on the road with them incessantly for well over ten years… saw a lot of shows….. and there was so much about life, and zen and philosophy within just what they did, just how they were, on stage, every show was always always totally different…. and, sometimes it was magic, and sometimes it was so overwhelming that you couldnt even walk straight. sometimes it was just a boring show. they never apologized though becuase they were on a journey, through a landscape… they saw their music, their language, as a landscape through which they traveled in their search for ‘that moment’ of perfect grateful deadness. which of course they would never reach just as you can never reach enlightenment, but still you try, becuase there just isnt anything else fucking to do with life really, and the days you come close just feel sooooo GOOD!!!!! :-}} here we are. and so we search. but, it is still a journey. so… im seeing your recent exploits into this music scene as kind of the same thing… i think the power and voice you are finding, is the voice of us, and all the people who were with you in the war and all… you are giving those people (who deserve and do not get respect in general) a voice…. its a powerful passionate and really true voice, that is why the people responded so well, thats what i think. and so… in finding this voice… and the other voices that may or may not be expressing themselves through you…. you are exploring a landscape… some days it will be boring and dry, some days it will be so incredible and breathtaking. jerry also said once that a persons relationship to drugs is like their relationship to sex…. it is that individual and personal… and i think that also extends to artwork and expression… you are develping a relationship with this music.. sometimes it will blow you out with passion and sometimes just ho-hum…. but always, something you love anyway…. doesnt always have to be passionate to be worthwhile :)) anyway i wanna support you in exporing your landscape any way it feels good to you…. changing, adapting, evolving. slow or fast. the audience will come along if they want… and if what you are talking about is something real and powerful, even if you are relaxed about it, i believe they will….. i wish i was there so i could dance. what do you play?? i wanna hear some raucus old protest songs. some bluesy dance music. my favorite songs that jerry used to play….. ‘reuben and cerise’ and those dylan songs, "tangled up in blue"….. i think that is my favorite song EVER!!!!! keep us posted plsszzee.. anna > I don’t want a serious gig. > No. > Not what I want to do yet. > Damo

– —————————— ‘the softest of all soft things overrides the hardest of things….’ — i ching "blessed am i to dwell in this beautiful temple" ~~~~~~~~~ rainbows ~~~~~~~~~~

Response:

damod…@webtv.net wrote: > Seriously Sande…if you only knew the landslide of problems facing me > you would be astounded I’m still waking and talking.

I have read what you’ve posted about your nightmares with the S*cial Security Administration. What a mess; I feel helpless to suggest anything. It’s quite unfair that *they* didn’t catch the mistake (if there was one) years ago, and yet try to hold *you* responsible for accumulated payments. If they were humane, they’d realize the stressful predicament you face is *torture*, (especially with your illness! Surely they are aware of that. How do they justify putting you under such pressure?) and admit their own mistake. I hope you have a reasonably intelligent and decent lawyer. > But by the graces of my yoga practice I am able to process my experiance > .respond somewhat effectively…sing on stage once a week…. > My problems are so severe and so syncrostancial in their order that I > have found it wisest to not discus my "real world" problems with my > closest confidants. > They actually become so upset and full of disbelief that it only > presents me with another problem.

Quite a dilemma…I have faced similar. Sometimes it seems that the very people who could *best* give you comfort, or *really* understand, are the same ones who feel things so deeply, (whether or not they are "involved", they are impacted) that you end up feeling cruel for unburdening yourself! > It’s difficult to continue when you can see no light at the end of the > tunnel. I’m sure meny of us carry this load. But as I read once in some > Sikh scripture…Make your allegiance with God only because all human > allegiance is subject to death and decay. It said something like that.

Sounds similar to a verse in the Hebrew scriptures: "Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His breath goes out, he returns to the dust, in that very day his thoughts perish. Happy is he whose help in in the God of Jacob." "…like the grass they will wither away" in Psalm 37 is a good one, too. > So my faith as groundless as it may seem to those who are not "God > oriented" is my only support. > Thus I will do my yoga then drag my weary ass out the door and go > through some more bearucratic B.S. wth God inspired resistance.

I’m sure many of us here are with you in spirit. > Thus > whatever the outcome I will have played my part out and will have peace > in myself at the end. > The victory belongs to the divinity to give to who he chooses. I won’t > second guess the outcome. > And I will appy myself fully as I can to the "now"..the immediacy of my > experiance…in the moment as you suggest…wih no concern for the > fruits of my labors.

It’s a wonderful gift to be able to fully live in the moment. I strive for it but have great difficulty. Too distractible… past, future, thoughts and feelings. A constant battle. > I will be attached to my labors…which I owe God….the fruits are his > gifts to distribute according to his will. Me? I will try to play my > part in this amazing system of creation with it’s pain and glories until > I die as a Good Soldier.

"I have fought the fine fight, I have run the course to the finish, I have observed the faith"…all we can do is our best, and that will be good enough. > St Martin…St George…St Barbara….warriors all. I will keep my > allegiance. And I will play and sing in the meanwhile as David played > and sang. And perhaps I will have the incredibl thrill of David in > victory Dancing naked at the head of his victorious army as he > re-entered Jerusalem. Crazy David.Can you even imagine the victory he > experianced to do that? Led his victorious army home by dancing naked in > joy as they entered Jerusalem?

I hope to meet David one day; a fascinating character…made many, many mistakes, but what a player. A heart of gold, and a poet, too > Now……I have to go meet more difficult people and bang on locked > doors and press against stonewalls. And be angry and firm as I rail > against injustice and fight for truth. > Heavy trip heh?

Live with intensity, bloom where you’re planted. They angels watch with fascination, and stand by, ready to help. > I gotta be a little wierd I’m a wacko

"But we’re never gonna survive, unless…we get a little crazy." > and I’ve found > moral justification for Viet nam. Like Lou. > Now…….into the fray once more my brave boys…….. > Time to demonstrate valour. > Damodara

Go get ‘em. Peace, Sandie — For info about this service, see http://www.twwells.com/anon/ or e-mail: h…@anon.twwells.com — for an automatically returned help message ad…@anon.twwells.com – for the service’s administrator ano…@anon.twwells.com — anonymous mail to the administrator

Response:

rainbows wrote: > those dylan > songs, "tangled up in blue"….. > i think that is my favorite song EVER!!!!!

I don’t have a favorite song, but "tangled up in blue" is a good one! Sandie — For info about this service, see http://www.twwells.com/anon/ or e-mail: h…@anon.twwells.com — for an automatically returned help message ad…@anon.twwells.com – for the service’s administrator ano…@anon.twwells.com — anonymous mail to the administrator

Response:

Seriously Sande…if you only knew the landslide of problems facing me you would be astounded I’m still waking and talking. But by the graces of my yoga practice I am able to process my experiance .respond somewhat effectively…sing on stage once a week…. My problems are so severe and so syncrostancial in their order that I have found it wisest to not discus my "real world" problems with my closest confidants. They actually become so upset and full of disbelief that it only presents me with another problem. It’s difficult to continue when you can see no light at the end of the tunnel. I’m sure meny of us carry this load. But as I read once in some Sikh scripture…Make your allegiance with God only because all human allegiance is subject to death and decay. It said something like that. So my faith as groundless as it may seem to those who are not "God oriented" is my only support. Thus I will do my yoga then drag my weary ass out the door and go through some more bearucratic B.S. wth God inspired resistance. Thus whatever the outcome I will have played my part out and will have peace in myself at the end. The victory belongs to the divinity to give to who he chooses. I won’t second guess the outcome. And I will appy myself fully as I can to the "now"..the immediacy of my experiance…in the moment as you suggest…wih no concern for the fruits of my labors. I will be attached to my labors…which I owe God….the fruits are his gifts to distribute according to his will. Me? I will try to play my part in this amazing system of creation with it’s pain and glories until I die as a Good Soldier. St Martin…St George…St Barbara….warriors all. I will keep my allegiance. And I will play and sing in the meanwhile as David played and sang. And perhaps I will have the incredibl thrill of David in victory Dancing naked at the head of his victorious army as he re-entered Jerusalem. Crazy David.Can you even imagine the victory he experianced to do that? Led his victorious army home by dancing naked in joy as they entered Jerusalem? Now……I have to go meet more difficult people and bang on locked doors and press against stonewalls. And be angry and firm as I rail against injustice and fight for truth. Heavy trip heh? I gotta be a little wierd I’m a wacko and I’ve found moral justification for Viet nam. Like Lou. Now…….into the fray once more my brave boys…….. Time to demonstrate valour. Damodara

Response:

If you can be in the moment, fully present, that’s real. Keep growing, and enjoy your music. Sandie — For info about this service, see http://www.twwells.com/anon/ or e-mail: h…@anon.twwells.com — for an automatically returned help message ad…@anon.twwells.com – for the service’s administrator ano…@anon.twwells.com — anonymous mail to the administrator

Response:

H Bow. I did an old Tom Paxton song from the sixties.."Can’t help but wonder where I’m bound." I was playing to the audience with that one as meny there are young young. Not just young. I found out that some are not even of drinking age. Being as the Bar is in the other room the age restrictions don’t apply to it as a place that sells alcohol and having minors present. I’ll post the words later. And I did "Once I led thelife of a millionaire"…or is it called "Nobody loves you when you’re down and out". It’s an old standard and it’s blues. I notice that the pressure of the attention actually seems to purge me of "non-self" pesences. I was noticing this contest within as I was getting ready and tuning up. Like the prssure from the outside was dispacing the presnce on the inside. I noticed a little struggle there taking place. I wasn’t involved incidently. I public I am only in observe or ignore mode as far as symptoms go. Perhaps you know I believe in some kind of "psychic" aspect to my differences from the normals. (Nutcse manners rule #one. "Never hold your head in public") Experiances like this seem to confirm tat belief. But…belief changes very easily. I just go by experiance. It’s good theropy to play for a crowd. I was also reaching quite pointedly, previously, for attention. You know eye contact and body movements..gestures to focus their attention..volume changes.. and last night I was not so concerned. I just got up and played. I talk a little too. I told folks not to tell anybody about the place because we have such a good talent pool and that the room is full so we should keep the place a secret from others. I praised the quality of the performers and how amazed I’d been about that in my four nights of playing. Nice lady played too who had that warmth and wholeness that can only be possessed by a woman over forty. I wanted to talk with her bu often have Stephen’s problem with small talk especially when the "power" is turned on. I’m actually quite worried about someone getting my head and talking to me. Then I have to pa mind to what they say and it is unnice cause so much becomes "stupid" to me when I get "turned on" when I’m in that environment. Nice warm well aged face and so full a persn. Love those older babes. Most of the chickies there are cute little girls whose lemon sized breasts tent soft cotton shirts. Nice to have around but I hav no real interest in slandering myself with such creatures. Nice to have around though they are. There is no creature on earth however who has the compassion or tenderness of an old babe. It’s a mercy from God I think that the oldr you get the more attactive the older women become. Which kinda fills the suggestion I’ve gotten from recent relationship efforts that I’m really looking for a mother and not an "adult" relationship. I think thats right. I want dependence. Interdependence. And emotional succor. Yes. Screw this "adult" complete to yourselves relationship crap that woman have handed me these last so meny years. It’s my emotions and my hungers if it’s nieve or juvenile then so be it. Course…..sometimes when I see those lemon tips kinda wiggle beneath those soft cotton shirts I can get real curious about that too. Almost like a mouse was under the shirt instead kinda wiggling around. I’m off topic. She was too jazz oriented I thought. Hiding beneath those crisply strummed chords and singing measured rthymes. So I played…had no problems. Damo

Response:

Next post from the ego driven and vain Damodara will be AFTER I play again tomorrow night. I have reclaimed my balance. Although….I’m experiancing some positive symptoms……. Must be the CIA controlled psychics or whateer…… shrug. Who knows right? Space aliens it is maybe. Shit maybe have a darn whole bloody chorus up there with me right? Four part harmonies??? So I’ll post when I return tomorrow evening. Just to exhibit my vanity to my supprt group. And I will…I will think of alt sz and how wonderful we all are. Cept stephen stinks at badmitton I heard. That ain’t true is it Stephen? Okay so I’m deffinately up for this. See yas… Damo P.S. and I will be introduced as "Damo". And you do all share in any glory I gather.

Response:

Good luck Damo! Break a leg! Frank. wrote in message

news:4249-38A8C88E-92@storefull-617.iap.bryant.webtv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Next post from the ego driven and vain Damodara will be AFTER I play > again tomorrow night. > I have reclaimed my balance. > Although….I’m experiancing some positive symptoms……. > Must be the CIA controlled psychics or whateer…… > shrug. > Who knows right? > Space aliens it is maybe. > Shit maybe have a darn whole bloody chorus up there with me right? > Four part harmonies??? > So I’ll post when I return tomorrow evening. > Just to exhibit my vanity to my supprt group. > And I will…I will think of alt sz and how wonderful we all are. > Cept stephen stinks at badmitton I heard. > That ain’t true is it Stephen? > Okay so I’m deffinately up for this. > See yas… > Damo > P.S. > and I will be introduced as "Damo". > And you do all share in any glory I gather.

Response:

Country Joe McDonald Jumps on Clinton

admin — Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I’m with Wacka, who’s a bright young man (most of ‘em are young to me, lately) and a mail-server mate of mine. Truth be told, he’s no Country Joe McDonald, though. Doesn’t play guitar as well, either, I fear. Now, where’s Joan Baez?

Agh, NO, not another "folk boom." Earnest unwashed folksingers, NOT AGAIN THANK YOU. Even Dylan gave up on protest folk… and furthermore, since I am in the mood to say so, politics never solved a damn thing. Most politics is just monkeys throwing shit at each other. Every politician is as bad as every other. Bill Clinton really is a lying sack of shit who has betrayed lots of people, including his wife, and sold out long ago to rich corporate interests. The problem is that you can say the same damn thing about Newt Gingrich, Trent Lott, and the rest of the Republican krewe. I say "krewe" as in Mardi Gras Krewe, as in, it’s just a bunch of drunken clowns on parade who like people to look at them. The ultimate hypocrisy of it all is summed up in the marriage of James Carville and Mary Matalin. One’s a Democratic party mogul, the other one is a Republican party mogul. They come on TV at the same time and have the same damn comedy routine. You could even write a commercial for it and sell it as a sitcom. "Jim’s the wacky Democrat, a tree-hugging liberal with a gabby streak! And Mary’s the cynical Texas Republican who hates welfare cheats and hangs with Rush Limbaugh! Together, they make a wacky comedy team on the new episode of ‘Jim Loves Mary’ here on ABC tonight!" Politicians: Clowns and idiots, each and every one of them, and easily replaceable by a well trained orangutan. Who really runs this country? Multinational corporations run this country. They just like to let us think that we have some say in it, because if we learned otherwise, the shit might hit the fan… END OF RANT

Response:

I though Eko guitars were made in Switzerland. Maybe that’s that other brand of crazy guitars. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OB Guitar Reference: How about Eko guitars? The Italians sure gave the Japanese a run for their money producing really trashy looking guitars, didn’t they?

Response:

I though Eko guitars were made in Switzerland. Maybe that’s that other brand of crazy guitars.

No – Italy.

Response:

: I’m with Wacka, who’s a bright young man (most of ‘em are young to me, lately) : and a mail-server mate of mine. Truth be told, he’s no Country Joe McDonald, : though. Doesn’t play guitar as well, either, I fear. Now, where’s Joan Baez? Did/does Country Joe play guitar? I thought Barry Melton handled most of the axework for the Fish, whose "Feel Like I’m Fixin To Die Rag" at least had some humor to it, unlike a lot of protest tunes. Maybe Joe played/plays some riddim, I don remember…. Neil Young also has a tune ragging on Billy C….pretty easy target, really. Will

Response:

I think if someone is committing genocide, it’s ok to bomb their asses when they wont stop. So do most of the republicans now, far as I can tell.

Only problem is it’s not working any better against Milowhatshishit, than it did against Saddam or Ho Chi Minh. The only way to do the job right, is to send in the PBI. But that might mean some brass-hat down at Disneyland east getting his pretty uniform mussed. And you wonn’t get it done with some half-assed job occupying Kosovo. If you do send troops in now, you’d better be prepared to over-run all of Yugoslavia, and build a democratic society from the ground up the same way we did in West Germany after WWII. If Bush had done that at Desert Storm, we probably wouldn’t be hassling with a two-bit pipsqueak over Kosovo today, and there might not even have been a war in Bosnia (or we’d have settled his hash then). But to do the job right, it’s going to take a couple hundred thousand troops (combined arms, combat support, combat service support and logistics trains). Figure it’s taken a month already to get 18 Apache’s ALMOST ready to enter the battle, and you can see we’re a little behind the power curve by now. If NATO couldn’t take any more time to negotiate, and had to start bombing when they did, the President should have gone ahead and called up the Guard and Reserves right then, just as soon as the first bomb dropped. If nothing else, it would have sent a more forceful message that we’re serious about getting the job done, whatever it takes. It might even have been a strong enough message that he would have backed down (although I doubt it). OB Guitar Reference: How about Eko guitars? The Italians sure gave the Japanese a run for their money producing really trashy looking guitars, didn’t they?

Response:

Heh… Remembering the Nixon years well, and the Johnson years too, I’d ask where you are on the following statement: "If you need to get your rape of an old aquaintance out the news in a hurry, it’s okay to bomb some 2-bit tin pants hood’s ass until he commits genocide" ? I’m with Wacka, who’s a bright young man (most of ‘em are young to me, lately) and a mail-server mate of mine. Truth be told, he’s no Country Joe McDonald, though. Doesn’t play guitar as well, either, I fear. Now, where’s Joan Baez? FoF – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I knew mr. nixon, wacka, and bill clinton is no richard nixon. actually I didn’t but you get the idea. I like clinton better than reagan.. better than bush, better than carter, better than ford. I think if someone is committing genocide, it’s ok to bomb their asses when they wont stop. So do most of the republicans now, far as I can tell. but then, this is a guitar room so.. how do you like those foreign made gutiars? Twang! Heewack! Start writing those protest songs, folks! Country Joe McDonald is at it again, leading his generation, this time with Clinton playing the part of Nixon. Witness this news item: [from The Washington Times] That old gang from the ’60s is starting to gang up on President Clinton. Well, at least one, anyway. Country Joe McDonald and the Fish performed their anti-Vietnam War anthem at Woodstock in 1968, but nowadays Country Joe is aiming his barbs at Mr. Clinton. For those who have forgotten, Mr. McDonald’s "I-Feel-Like-I’m-Fixin’-to-Die Rag" includes these famous lyrics: "One, two, three/ What are we fightin’ for?/Don’t ask me, I don’t give a damn/Next stop is Vietnam." Mr. McDonald, interviewed this week by New York Post columnist Gersh Kuntzman, demanded: "Stop the bombing immediately!" He added: "Bill Clinton is a traitor to his generation, a liar and a [expletive deleted]." Mr. Kuntzman, for his part, offered these updated lyrics for Mr. McDonald’s Vietnam-era tune: Come on all of you big strong men, Uncle Bill needs your help again, Started another imbroglio, In a little region called Kosovo. So sell your mutual fund and pick up a gun, You’re gonna have a whole lot of fun. (And it’s one, two, three), What are we fightin’ for? Don’t ask me I don’t really know, Next stop is Kosovo. (And it’s five, six, seven), Yeltsin may take the bait. It’s World War III up in the sky, Whoopie, we’re all gonna die. [end item] He’s no president of mine. You people who backed him up the last 6 years, this little sucker’s a-a-a-a-a-alllll yours. Wacka Jawaka

Response:

I knew mr. nixon, wacka, and bill clinton is no richard nixon. actually I didn’t but you get the idea. I like clinton better than reagan.. better than bush, better than carter, better than ford. I think if someone is committing genocide, it’s ok to bomb their asses when they wont stop. So do most of the republicans now, far as I can tell. but then, this is a guitar room so.. how do you like those foreign made gutiars? Twang! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Heewack! Start writing those protest songs, folks! Country Joe McDonald is at it again, leading his generation, this time with Clinton playing the part of Nixon. Witness this news item: [from The Washington Times] That old gang from the ’60s is starting to gang up on President Clinton. Well, at least one, anyway. Country Joe McDonald and the Fish performed their anti-Vietnam War anthem at Woodstock in 1968, but nowadays Country Joe is aiming his barbs at Mr. Clinton. For those who have forgotten, Mr. McDonald’s "I-Feel-Like-I’m-Fixin’-to-Die Rag" includes these famous lyrics: "One, two, three/ What are we fightin’ for?/Don’t ask me, I don’t give a damn/Next stop is Vietnam." Mr. McDonald, interviewed this week by New York Post columnist Gersh Kuntzman, demanded: "Stop the bombing immediately!" He added: "Bill Clinton is a traitor to his generation, a liar and a [expletive deleted]." Mr. Kuntzman, for his part, offered these updated lyrics for Mr. McDonald’s Vietnam-era tune: Come on all of you big strong men, Uncle Bill needs your help again, Started another imbroglio, In a little region called Kosovo. So sell your mutual fund and pick up a gun, You’re gonna have a whole lot of fun. (And it’s one, two, three), What are we fightin’ for? Don’t ask me I don’t really know, Next stop is Kosovo. (And it’s five, six, seven), Yeltsin may take the bait. It’s World War III up in the sky, Whoopie, we’re all gonna die. [end item] He’s no president of mine. You people who backed him up the last 6 years, this little sucker’s a-a-a-a-a-alllll yours. Wacka Jawaka

Response:

Heewack! Start writing those protest songs, folks! Country Joe McDonald is at it again, leading his generation, this time with Clinton playing the part of Nixon. Witness this news item: [from The Washington Times] That old gang from the ’60s is starting to gang up on President Clinton. Well, at least one, anyway. Country Joe McDonald and the Fish performed their anti-Vietnam War anthem at Woodstock in 1968, but nowadays Country Joe is aiming his barbs at Mr. Clinton. For those who have forgotten, Mr. McDonald’s "I-Feel-Like-I’m-Fixin’-to-Die Rag" includes these famous lyrics: "One, two, three/ What are we fightin’ for?/Don’t ask me, I don’t give a damn/Next stop is Vietnam." Mr. McDonald, interviewed this week by New York Post columnist Gersh Kuntzman, demanded: "Stop the bombing immediately!" He added: "Bill Clinton is a traitor to his generation, a liar and a [expletive deleted]." Mr. Kuntzman, for his part, offered these updated lyrics for Mr. McDonald’s Vietnam-era tune: Come on all of you big strong men, Uncle Bill needs your help again, Started another imbroglio, In a little region called Kosovo. So sell your mutual fund and pick up a gun, You’re gonna have a whole lot of fun. (And it’s one, two, three), What are we fightin’ for? Don’t ask me I don’t really know, Next stop is Kosovo. (And it’s five, six, seven), Yeltsin may take the bait. It’s World War III up in the sky, Whoopie, we’re all gonna die. [end item] He’s no president of mine. You people who backed him up the last 6 years, this little sucker’s a-a-a-a-a-alllll yours. Wacka Jawaka

Response:

CACTUS??

admin — Wed, 08 Jul 1998 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Well, Mozart is dead, but there’s quite a bit of classical music being played world-wide. I agree with some of your post, but I think there are a couple things to consider. First, blues never was mainstream. It never did get consistent, big airplay even when I was a kid (good gawd in the 60’s!). The appeal was never that broad. Second, we live in a very big world, where there are French people who love Luther Allison (alas, also deceased, I think). Blues are likely to be in style somewhere some of the time. My favorite Climax Blues Band CD was made in France! Couldn’t find a U.S. reissue. Third, a better indicator nowadays would be the world-wide sales of blues CD’s. All right, I don’t have those numbers! But the manufacturers keep coming out with these amazing blues collections. Check the Smithsonian and Time-Life collections, the House of Blues collections. A local CD place, Silver Platters, has a *huge* selection of blues titles. Like Mozart, I believe blues will be with us indefinitely. –CarlB – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also, I do happen to be a fan of Blues music, which is a rare thing for people in my generation. If you haven’t noticed, people in my generation are either turning to punk/ska or metal/hardcore. Blues isn’t even on the map (yes, I’m calling Jonny Lang and KWS atypical). In fact, at the last Blues show I went to (John Hammond) The club was packed, but only about 5 people were under 40. The one before that (Robt. Bradley) had about 50 people in that same age group (blame it on the video they made for MTV), but the club was only about half full. And the sad thing is that both of these shows were free to college students (I am a college student as the address suggests). In contrast, at another local club where there is a $5 cover for everybody, a ska band (Baccone Dolce) played to a standing room only crowd, with no faces over 30 to be seen. If we are the future of music (both as musicians and audiences), Then Blues could very well die out. And FTR, I wasn’t taunting when I made the statement about there not being enough "official" bluesmen (whatever that may mean) for an "etc."anymore. Think about it: Buddy Guy’s 62, SRV’s gone, as is Luther Allison, Albert Collins, Albert & Freddie King, and Johnny Copeland. BB’s in his 70’s, John Lee Hooker is at least that old, and Duke Robillard isn’t young anymore, Neither is Robert Cray, Johnny Winters, Bonnie Raitt, Otis Rush, Taj Mahal, or Gatemouth Brown. Who’s going to replace them when they go to that great Delta in the sky? I can honestly say that I don’t know. None of the clubs around the campuses book blues acts with any frequency. The closest it ever gets

**snip**

Response:

Who’s sexier, Mary Ann or Ginger? Marry Ann definitely.

Personally I liked Mrs Howell. "Lovey!" Rod

Response:

post: snip) Nope. Ron Thompson, over the course of a long post, wrote absolutely none of that.

oooops. scuze me. my apologies.

Response:

: More elitist babble … : The blues probably sells more records today than all of the alternative : groups combined. If the sales of Pearl Jam’s new album have been accounted for, I’d say you are very mistaken. That and the Pumpkins new album should put that argument to rest. : Doing drugs is stupid, but not everyone mentioned died : because of drugs. Some were killed. Some of those bands are : still going. FTR, I never said that they did. I merely included a legacy of those drugs in the "Acid Casualty" section. The fact is, they’re still dead and won’t be making any new music. And if you tell me that those bands that reunited and are on tour are even a shadow of their former selves, I’ll laugh uncontrollably. I mean, even the *Sex Pistols* sold out and finally played NYC on their reunion tour. : If I take the attitude of Brad F. and apply it to his hero – Cobain killed : himself. HIS legacy was worse than many others mentioned: Drugs, Pain and : Suicide. It’s not his legacy that makes the music listenable. Legacies don’t sell records, either. It’s his addressing of life’s problems and getting on with his life, or death, and THAT is the true essence of grunge and the youth culture today. : The sad part of his attitude, is that it will keep him from searching out : the roots of the music Cobain played, the same way many Van Halen followers : think he invented guitar. Or Hendrix. I hope one day he looks back and : realizes that there is a long tradition behind his hero that can be : appreciated in addition. Don’t start writing me off as a hopeless, ignorant pissant when you have absofuckinglutely NO INKLING of who I am, what I play, what I stand for, or anything else. And all just because I don’t bow down at the holy shrine of the Beatles and actually bring up music, like Nirvana, that you’d rather not deal with. I know the roots of Kurt’s music, I have much of it in my collection. Hell, I even have the roots of *YOUR* music in my collection. I know for damn sure that he didn’t invent the guitar. I know for damn sure that *you* didn’t invent the guitar, and neither did the Beatles, Cream, or any other bands you want to glorify endlessly. And all that "peace and Love" crap? I’d like to see where it is in the larger context of the ’60s. All I hear are love songs (damn near everywhere), drug songs (again,damn near everywhere), and pointless songs that don’t say anything (like "octopus’ garden, Ticket to ride, a Day in the Life, Yellow submarine, and many other songs sung by the Beatles and others). Cobain’s not my hero, he’s just made some good music that both you and I know doesn’t belong to your generation, and I think that the world needs more of that. — "Some people’s idea of free speech is that they are free to say what they like, but if anyone says anything back, that is an outrage." -Winston Churchill

Response:

post: snip)

Nope. Ron Thompson, over the course of a long post, wrote absolutely none of that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – over the weekend I was at a big Wal-Mart type music store, with all these really amateurish players all playing at the same time, real loud, and this kid comes in, maybe 14 I guess, real unassuming. He picks up a Strat and plugs it into a Twin and it sounded like God. Real sweet blues licks, his phrasing was great and his bends right to pitch, unusual for a young guy. Anyway this guy was into the blues and had a great feel, better than most of the guys in there twice his age. dont worry. There’s always a crop of youngsters ready to take up the holster. Rod

– rct The opinions above are mine and mine alone.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -This is my point exactly. I have no problem with you listening to your music, but foisting it upon us will not make us concede defeat, roll over and worship your oh-so-holy Beatles as gods. And as for your Nirvana opinion, You don’t hold much influence, because it was your music, and the endless repetitions thereof on radio across the nation, that Cobain’s music allowed us to get away from. The fact is that it is revolutionary *because* *you* don’t see it as revolutionary and *you* won’t listen to it over and over again. That’s why it can be our music. I mean, I bet *your* parents didn’t like the "longhaired hippie crap" that came through the speakers of the family stereo back in the day. Alright, then. Mark my words: because the people of your generation won’t listen to much of anything outside that time (trust me, I’ve heard those "classic rock" stations in every nook and cranny of the country), your music is destined to grow old with you, becoming as antiquated and quaint as the croonings of the Late ’40s/’50s era, home to only a few adventurous souls who will try to convince the rest of the record buying public that "it’s actually pretty good…" — "Some people’s idea of free speech is that they are free to say what they like, but if anyone says anything back, that is an outrage." -Winston Churchill

You sound like the stereo-typical, whiney, generation x-ter. No one is forcing you to listen to anything. You’ve obviously chosen to be sucked in to the MTV philosophy "new is good, old is sucky". You are too fucking lazy to get off of your ass and find out what the "good" music was like in the ’60s and ’70s. Your whole idea of what life, history, and America are has been shaped by the media. People like classic rock stations, so they listen to them. You like MTV and sniviling bitches, so you listen to them. I like neither, so I listen to neither. But I do like music from the ’60s and ’70s, as well as music from the ’90s. But I damn sure don’t let MTV or pop radio decide what’s in my CD collection. Why don’t you direct your energy towards discovery instead towards whining and crying. Brad F.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : The sixties music is still around now. Why? Because it still sounds : so good. I’ve been listening to White Room and Magic Carpet Ride for : thirty years, and have never grown tired of them. Nirvana is good : too, although hardly revolutionary. T(snip) moment in the sun and enjoyed it while it lasted. Hopefully, I’ll also be willing to let them be what they are and let them play their own music-something that I would heartily advise all such people today on these issues. so fucking what. People like what they like, they dont need a REASON or a justification. This is retarded. It’s like you guys are standing up and screaming, "I LIKE VANILLA! CHOCOLATE SUCKS! IF YOU LIKE CHOCOLATE, YOU SUCK TOO!’ this isnt funny, it’s dull. come on. amuse me. Rod

Who’s sexier, Mary Ann or Ginger? Marry Ann definitely. Brad F.

Response:

moment in the sun and enjoyed it while it lasted. Hopefully, I’ll also be willing to let them be what they are and let them play their own music-something that I would heartily advise all such people today on these issues.

so fucking what. People like what they like, they dont need a REASON or a justification. This is retarded. It’s like you guys are standing up and screaming, "I LIKE VANILLA! CHOCOLATE SUCKS! IF YOU LIKE CHOCOLATE, YOU SUCK TOO!’ this isnt funny, it’s dull. come on. amuse me. Rod

Response:

post: snip) Anyway, it sure seems like blues is dying, at least the high profile practitioners, anyway. And, in Closing, Let me quote The words of one Buddy guy (Guitar World July ‘98) "I used to tell People there was a handful of us left, but now the hand is not that full…Jimmy Rogers, Junior Wells and several more of us died this past year. Hey man, this is scary."

over the weekend I was at a big Wal-Mart type music store, with all these really amateurish players all playing at the same time, real loud, and this kid comes in, maybe 14 I guess, real unassuming. He picks up a Strat and plugs it into a Twin and it sounded like God. Real sweet blues licks, his phrasing was great and his bends right to pitch, unusual for a young guy. Anyway this guy was into the blues and had a great feel, better than most of the guys in there twice his age. dont worry. There’s always a crop of youngsters ready to take up the holster. Rod

Response:

Doesn’t anybody have the desire or intelligence to actually RESPOND to a post instead of flaming? I mean, many of you at least *pretend* to be adults, right? I can get better flames from 13 year-olds.

I did respond chief. It is you that infers any response to your post that isn’t "yeah dewd, yer right man…" is a flame. For the record, If you had actually read the article you would have seen that I was not bemoaning the disappearance of the non-RI plexi, just stating a fact-that era is long gone. Whether you bemoan them or not is your business.

For the record, if you could understand when you were having your chain yanked, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Also, I do happen to be a fan of Blues music, which is a rare thing for people in my generation.

You didn’t really sound like it. If you haven’t noticed, people in my generation are either turning to punk/ska or metal/hardcore.

I hadn’t noticed. I’m not in your generation. You appear to be the one noticing whats going on in my generation, hence the apparently sarcastic tone of my response to your apparently sarcastic post. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Blues isn’t even on the map (yes, I’m calling Jonny Lang and KWS atypical). In fact, at the last Blues show I went to (John Hammond) The club was packed, but only about 5 people were under 40. The one before that (Robt. Bradley) had about 50 people in that same age group (blame it on the video they made for MTV), but the club was only about half full. And the sad thing is that both of these shows were free to college students (I am a college student as the address suggests). In contrast, at another local club where there is a $5 cover for everybody, a ska band (Baccone Dolce) played to a standing room only crowd, with no faces over 30 to be seen. If we are the future of music (both as musicians and audiences), Then Blues could very well die out. And FTR, I wasn’t taunting when I made the statement about there not being enough "official" bluesmen (whatever that may mean) for an "etc."anymore. Think about it: Buddy Guy’s 62, SRV’s gone, as is Luther Allison, Albert Collins, Albert & Freddie King, and Johnny Copeland. BB’s in his 70’s, John Lee Hooker is at least that old, and Duke Robillard isn’t young anymore, Neither is Robert Cray, Johnny Winters, Bonnie Raitt, Otis Rush, Taj Mahal, or Gatemouth Brown.

Pertinent and accurate observations, all of them. It’s the way it is, and that is the way things are. Who’s going to replace them when they go to that great Delta in the sky? I can honestly say that I don’t know.

Me neither. I hadn’t been particularly worried about it either. None of the clubs around the campuses book blues acts with any frequency. The closest it ever gets around here is an R&B night at one of the clubs and Gov’t Mule playing 1 show, 2 years ago, at another. The last "official" bluesman that I remember hearing about was Junior Wells, who played in town the summer before I came to college 3 years ago. Of the locals who carry on the blues torch around here, they are regulars at a club across town from the campuses. A club which gets very little write up in the local press, and is attended, mostly, by patrons over 40. And, let me ask you, when was the last time you heard of an actual blues band playing at a House of Blues Near you? I haven’t heard of any in a while, but maybe that’s because I live 300 miles from the nearest one and Blues bands don’t carry that much publicity with them.

Now you are lamenting the fact that there aren’t any blues acts in your one horse town. There aren’t any blues acts in my one horse town either. You were carping about your generation and your music and your terms, and all about how the blues stuff and the 60s and 70s and all that other rot was tiresome, etc. Which one is it chief? Anyway, it sure seems like blues is dying, at least the high profile practitioners, anyway. And, in Closing, Let me quote The words of one Buddy guy (Guitar World July ‘98) "I used to tell People there was a handful of us left, but now the hand is not that full…Jimmy Rogers, Junior Wells and several more of us died this past year. Hey man, this is scary."

Yeah well that may be. Someone will come along I’m sure. — rct The opinions above are mine and mine alone.

Response:

: Numerous : Famous musicians are DEAD including… …Felix Pappalardi : Din’t his wife shoot him? At least he didn’t die a junkie death. I : think he had a unique playing style. I don’t know for sure, but the point remains. — "Some people’s idea of free speech is that they are free to say what they like, but if anyone says anything back, that is an outrage." -Winston Churchill

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: Who has taken up the mantle Cobain dropped? Good Question. I wish I knew for sure. But Billy Corgan of the Pumpkins is quite articulate these days. That and his new album is very good. — "Some people’s idea of free speech is that they are free to say what they like, but if anyone says anything back, that is an outrage." -Winston Churchill

Response:

: The sixties music is still around now. Why? Because it still sounds : so good. I’ve been listening to White Room and Magic Carpet Ride for : thirty years, and have never grown tired of them. Nirvana is good : too, although hardly revolutionary. This is my point exactly. I have no problem with you listening to your music, but foisting it upon us will not make us concede defeat, roll over and worship your oh-so-holy Beatles as gods. And as for your Nirvana opinion, You don’t hold much influence, because it was your music, and the endless repetitions thereof on radio across the nation, that Cobain’s music allowed us to get away from. The fact is that it is revolutionary *because* *you* don’t see it as revolutionary and *you* won’t listen to it over and over again. That’s why it can be our music. I mean, I bet *your* parents didn’t like the "longhaired hippie crap" that came through the speakers of the family stereo back in the day. Alright, then. Mark my words: because the people of your generation won’t listen to much of anything outside that time (trust me, I’ve heard those "classic rock" stations in every nook and cranny of the country), your music is destined to grow old with you, becoming as antiquated and quaint as the croonings of the Late ’40s/’50s era, home to only a few adventurous souls who will try to convince the rest of the record buying public that "it’s actually pretty good…" : Thirty years from now, you’ll turn on your computer, or whatever : mass-communication device that will be in use then, and read some post : like the above. And when you say to yourself, "What a dumbass rant," : you’ll be right. Maybe the radio will be playing The Beatles. I : doubt it will be Nirvana. Ah, but you forget the time and money factors. In 20 years, my generation will be in the prime of its salary-earning powers (and therefore purchasing power), not to mention in directorial positions of such vital things as radio stations and record labels. Expect to see "Classic rock" stations littered with Alice in Chains, Smashing Pumpkins, 311, Blind Melon, Stone Temple Pilots, Pearl Jam, and ,yes, Nirvana, throughout their playlist. Your generation, on the other hand, will have, for the most part, retired and forfeited your once-vast purchasing power for the quieter pastures of rest from those jobs that you had toiled at all those years. Maybe you’ll still play the music on your electric guitars, maybe through tube amps (if tubes are still available for all but the richest of people), but you’ll wonder "why nobody will play any of that music that was so good when you first heard it those how many years ago? No, it can’t be that old-you can’t be THAT old…" But you will be THAT old. (I LOVE learning history for reasons just like this-it tends to repeat itself in different disguises) And as for the new music? You’re right, I probably will hate it and someone may come up with something like the post I sent. But, Hopefully, I’ll realize that my generation had its moment in the sun and enjoyed it while it lasted. Hopefully, I’ll also be willing to let them be what they are and let them play their own music-something that I would heartily advise all such people today on these issues. — "Some people’s idea of free speech is that they are free to say what they like, but if anyone says anything back, that is an outrage." -Winston Churchill

Response:

post: : WARNING: Server down, waiting for some stuff off the Sunn…Exceed not workin too good…I’m : still waitin… : I have never, and I mean never, bemoaned the absence of a single :Marshall(The Sound of Rock

Reposting messages illegally cancelled by rogue forger

admin — Mon, 30 Dec 1996 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I am reposting the following messages, in response to Tim Brown’s IgLou Internet Services can be reached at (1-800-436-4456) if you wish to complain about Mr. Brown’s illegal activity.

Listen here, asshole, since you can’t seem to get this through that thick skull of yours: I didn’t cancel your posts. Let me say that slower so you can understand it: I…..didn’t…..cancel…..your…..posts. YOU canceled them! Also, it is a waste of space to post the same messages over and over again as you have done these past 24 hours. — YOU LIVE IN A RIGHT-WING DICTATORSHIP — REVOLT! Stop metric imperialism! Smash the radio monopolies!

Response:

I am reposting the following messages, in response to Tim Brown’s IgLou Internet Services can be reached at (1-800-436-4456) if you wish to complain about Mr. Brown’s illegal activity. THE LAST WORD Publisher: William Mullin Dec. 11, 1996 vol 5, num 2 Rising from the ashes… PUBLISHER’S NOTE What a difference a week makes! Praise has come from around the world, celebrating the rebirth of _The Last Word_. Subscriptions have increased tenfold since I have taken over the helm. We are operating in the black, ever since we have cut expenses (an untold number of plungers, and other assorted anal ticklers have been left behind the office by the previous publisher). So, onward and upward, as I always say. LETTERS Bill, Great work on the ‘zine! I’ve gone out and purchased the CDs you reviewed in TLW. Wow!!! They’re as great as you said, and then some. Keep up the good work. – AM ===== To the Editor: I like the new format of your ‘zine. But tell me this: do you only review punk music? I’m into metal, and would like to see reviews of this genre (Manowar, King Diamond, etc). – RN [_The Last Word_ is not an music-only 'zine. Its focus covers a wide range of ideas. Submissions are heartily welcomed. Would you like to be a staff writer? -- Ed.] ==== GAME UPDATE I am sad to report that my most recent Angband character has met an untimely end. Ren E. Gade, the high elf mage, had his life extinguished by a dark elven mage, 20 levels down (1000 ft.). [Angband is a "roguelike" game, an offshoot of Moria, designed for various platforms (UNIX, DOS, OS/2, etc.). -- Ed.] The one thing that annoys me the most is the knowledge that Ren’s death was easily avoidable. He had a potion of healing (capable of restoring his health to the max), but he chose (unwisely, obviously) not to use it. Instead, he fell into the trap of "just one more shot, then I’ll teleport away." He didn’t get the chance, as the dark mage unleashed a flurry of attacks, draining Ren’s hit points to below zero (and thus, death). Ren was my best character to date (Level 26). Alas, as such, he was exploring uncharted territory. Live and learn. A new character will be brought into existence at a later date. For now, I lift a glass in salute to a fighter I will sorely miss. LUNCH Lunch has fallen into a decidedly familiar pattern, as of late. In a not-too-distant past, I made it a habit to vary my diet at the noontime hour. Entering the deli, my thoughts would race as I contemplated my meal. Would it be roast beef today? or turkey, lettuce, and tomato? Perhaps a hot chicken parm for a change. But now, lunch consists of a single item: Oven Gold turkey. Day after day, the same thing. The man behind the counter and I no longer say a word to one another. I give a little wave, he gives a short nod, and creates my daily fare. It’s a little disturbing, this communication breakdown. Perhaps I should make a New Year’s resolution to break this vicious cycle. Indeed, even this ‘zine could be used to chronicle my eating habits! Suggestions are heartily welcomed. MUSIC REVIEWS DIO The magical voice of Ronnie James Dio comes through again in his latest release, "Angry Machines". Songs range from the heavy (‘Institutional Man’), to fast (‘Don’t Tell The Kids’), to ballads (‘This Is Your Life’). He is moving further away from the realm of dragons, and other themes from his earlier albums, and more into the world of modern life. ELECTRIC HELLFIRE CLUB "Calling Dr. Luv" is a bittersweet tribute to keyboardist Rev. Dr. Luv, who died in a car crash earlier this year. Between-song samples, such as from the movie "Shane" (‘Shane!! Come back!’), as well as a recorded message (‘We’re sorry. The number you have reached is not in service’) serve to highlight the sense of loss that the band has undergone. Another lineup change has also taken place, as the lovely Miss Go Go Partidge replaces the erotic Sabrina Satana. Copyright 1996 Male Groupie Productions. All rights reserved. THE LAST WORD Dec. 18, 1996 vol 5, no 3 HOLIDAYS ‘Tis the season (sigh). Every year I find it harder and harder to get into the "Christmas spirit" — in part, no doubt, due to the fact that I am no longer a practicing Christian. Also, I’m no longer the little kid waiting for Santa Claus; instead, I’m the poor bastard stuck in the buying frenzy, trying to find the ‘perfect gift’ for the family. This past weekend, the whole family got together at my parents’ place for a tree-decorating party (it wasn’t my idea — see above). It was a bit of a surreal experience, since some of my sibs I haven’t seen in years, sort of like getting together with a bunch of strangers. Mom was pleased to have the pitter-patter of little feet (oops, make that fully-grown feet stamping up and down the basement stairs) in her home once again. — I found the tree. Now where are the ornaments? — Do we have any replacement bulbs for the lights? — What the?? Only *some* of the lights blink in this string? — Well, here’s the ornament from Grandma’s days (the last of its kind). After a well-earned supper of lasagne, we all sat back, basking in the glow of the (semi) blinking lights, catching up on old times, plans for the future, what gifts to buy for the little ones, etc. etc. etc. Somehow, I get the feeling that I’m going to get stuck with the job of taking down the tree, since I seem to be closest to the old homestead. *grumble* MUSIC REVIEWS BARNES & BARNES I have always been a fan of Bill Mumy. Ever since his acting days in "Lost In Space" (by far, a better show than "Star Trek"), he has been a favorite of mine — almost like a brother that I wished I had. Seeing him star in "Babylon 5" (a *great* series) rekindles my admiration for him. Between these two science fiction series, he has been one half of the Barnes & Barnes songwriting team. ’Fish Heads’ and ‘Three Drunk Newts’ are among this group’s best-known tunes. These songs (and others) are featured in "Voobaha", now available on CD. THE LAST WORD Publisher: William Mullin Dec. 25, 1996 vol 5, no 4 Rising from the ashes… PUBLISHER’S NOTE Merry Christmas, and all that stuff. The staff at _The Last Word_ wishes good cheer to its faithful subscribers and readers. We look back fondly at the past month, and look forward to the challenges that await us in the future. See you in 1997! LETTERS What’s up with "The Last Word"? Is there a coup going on? – AL [Not a coup. In fact, not one shot has been fired. _The Last Word_ continues to be published by Male Groupie Productions. -- Ed.] ==== A STRANGE DREAM Setting: Japan Scene: An immense, globular mass, filled with… everything, it seems. A raging whirlwind, spinning wildly out of control. People, places, and objects fly past in a rush. You think to yourself that you will not see the same thing twice. Something hits you on the head. Was it an alarm clock? Or was it Big Ben?? You hear a group of schoolchildren, instructing you to recite a mantra five times, to make the nightmare disappear. You follow their instructions to the letter. Nothing happens. You hear them giggling, and you realize that there is no escape. Scene: A classroom about Medical Ethics. The instructor poses a question: A relative of a patient comes to you, inquiring about a certain medication administered. You stare blankly into a gray dawn. It’s morning in America. MUSIC REVIEWS WOLFE TONES Ordinarily, I would frown upon reviewing Irish folk music. My father had the entire Clancy Brothers (with Tommy Makem) catalog, and took great delight in playing them over (and over, and over…). I decided that I had had my share of Irish music to last me ten lifetimes. Then, in college, I had the good fortune to share a dorm with an Irish roommate. In his possession was "Let The People Sing" by the Wolfe Tones. Hearing protest songs ("The Men Behind The Wire") and ballads honoring fallen Irish patriots ("James Connolly") deeply moved me. This is what I’ve been missing all these years. Copyright 1996 Male Groupie Productions. All rights reserved. William Mullin Publisher of _The Last Word_ — ____ /O O ./ .’ M_Groupie on IRC, cult critic, F.A.C.T.Net Patron {__, { / . . ) "There’s the Whore of Babylon… get her autograph!" |NOTS-| } — 4 Nurses of the Apocalypse, "Armageddon A-Go-Go" .( _( )_.’ http://www.internote.com/sdp/4_nurses.html ‘—.~_ _ _& http://www.internote.com/sdp/phoebe.html I AM SCAMIZDAT *** The E-Meter can make the blind see (NOTS 22) *** FREE XENU Fight the criminal cult – Read alt.religion.scientology – Give to F.A.C.T.Net http://www.lightlink.com/factnet1/pages/contribute.html

Response:

Last Word 12/25/1996

admin — Fri, 27 Dec 1996 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

THE LAST WORD Publisher: William Mullin Dec. 25, 1996 vol 5, no 4 Rising from the ashes… PUBLISHER’S NOTE Merry Christmas, and all that stuff. The staff at _The Last Word_ wishes good cheer to its faithful subscribers and readers. We look back fondly at the past month, and look forward to the challenges that await us in the future. See you in 1997! LETTERS What’s up with "The Last Word"? Is there a coup going on? – AL [Not a coup. In fact, not one shot has been fired. _The Last Word_ continues to be published by Male Groupie Productions. -- Ed.] ==== A STRANGE DREAM Setting: Japan Scene: An immense, globular mass, filled with… everything, it seems. A raging whirlwind, spinning wildly out of control. People, places, and objects fly past in a rush. You think to yourself that you will not see the same thing twice. Something hits you on the head. Was it an alarm clock? Or was it Big Ben?? You hear a group of schoolchildren, instructing you to recite a mantra five times, to make the nightmare disappear. You follow their instructions to the letter. Nothing happens. You hear them giggling, and you realize that there is no escape. Scene: A classroom about Medical Ethics. The instructor poses a question: A relative of a patient comes to you, inquiring about a certain medication administered. You stare blankly into a gray dawn. It’s morning in America. MUSIC REVIEWS WOLFE TONES Ordinarily, I would frown upon reviewing Irish folk music. My father had the entire Clancy Brothers (with Tommy Makem) catalog, and took great delight in playing them over (and over, and over…). I decided that I had had my share of Irish music to last me ten lifetimes. Then, in college, I had the good fortune to share a dorm with an Irish roommate. In his possession was "Let The People Sing" by the Wolfe Tones. Hearing protest songs ("The Men Behind The Wire") and ballads honoring fallen Irish patriots ("James Connolly") deeply moved me. This is what I’ve been missing all these years. Copyright 1996 Male Groupie Productions. All rights reserved.

Response:

ENOUGH ALREADY ! You boys want to have a pissing contest. Do it in court. Let’s get this NG back to zines. —

Response:

Tim Brown is a Nazi who cancels other people’s posts. Get this scum off the ‘Net! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – THE LAST WORD Publisher: William Mullin Dec. 25, 1996 vol 5, no 4 Rising from the ashes… PUBLISHER’S NOTE Merry Christmas, and all that stuff. The staff at _The Last Word_ wishes good cheer to its faithful subscribers and readers. We look back fondly at the past month, and look forward to the challenges that await us in the future. See you in 1997! LETTERS What’s up with "The Last Word"? Is there a coup going on? – AL [Not a coup. In fact, not one shot has been fired. _The Last Word_ continues to be published by Male Groupie Productions. -- Ed.] ==== A STRANGE DREAM Setting: Japan Scene: An immense, globular mass, filled with… everything, it seems. A raging whirlwind, spinning wildly out of control. People, places, and objects fly past in a rush. You think to yourself that you will not see the same thing twice. Something hits you on the head. Was it an alarm clock? Or was it Big Ben?? You hear a group of schoolchildren, instructing you to recite a mantra five times, to make the nightmare disappear. You follow their instructions to the letter. Nothing happens. You hear them giggling, and you realize that there is no escape. Scene: A classroom about Medical Ethics. The instructor poses a question: A relative of a patient comes to you, inquiring about a certain medication administered. You stare blankly into a gray dawn. It’s morning in America. MUSIC REVIEWS WOLFE TONES Ordinarily, I would frown upon reviewing Irish folk music. My father had the entire Clancy Brothers (with Tommy Makem) catalog, and took great delight in playing them over (and over, and over…). I decided that I had had my share of Irish music to last me ten lifetimes. Then, in college, I had the good fortune to share a dorm with an Irish roommate. In his possession was "Let The People Sing" by the Wolfe Tones. Hearing protest songs ("The Men Behind The Wire") and ballads honoring fallen Irish patriots ("James Connolly") deeply moved me. This is what I’ve been missing all these years. Copyright 1996 Male Groupie Productions. All rights reserved.

Response:

Tim Brown is a Nazi who cancels other people’s posts. Get this scum off the ‘Net! William Mullin is top official with the Unification Church who has been canceling my posts and setting me up by canceling his own. Three lies in one sentence. That might be a record. LIE #1: William Mullin is top official with the Unification Church

William Mullin is associated with FACT Net, which is a Moonie front. FACT Net tries to divert this suspicion by claiming to have investigated the Moonies, but the fact is, FACT Net cares none about facts. LIE #2: who has been canceling my posts

It has been proven time and time again that you have canceled my posts and have been doing so for about two months. LIE #3: and setting me up by canceling his own.

Also a proven fact. Stop cancelling my posts, Nazi.

This statement has two lies: LIE #1: "Stop cancelling my posts". I didn’t cancel your posts. LIE #2: "Nazi." Because I have been beaten up by neo-Nazis on countless occasions, it is absurd to claim that I am a Nazi. People acquainted with the real Last Word know how ridiculous this charge is. — YOU LIVE IN A RIGHT-WING DICTATORSHIP — REVOLT! Stop metric imperialism! Smash the radio monopolies!

Response:

Three lies in one sentence. That might be a record. LIE #1: William Mullin is top official with the Unification Church LIE #2: who has been canceling my posts LIE #3: and setting me up by canceling his own. Stop cancelling my posts, Nazi. William Mullin Publisher of _The Last Word_ Copyright 1996 Male Groupie Productions. All rights reserved. — ____ /O O ./ .’ M_Groupie on IRC, cult critic, F.A.C.T.Net Patron {__, { / . . ) "There’s the Whore of Babylon… get her autograph!" |NOTS-| } — 4 Nurses of the Apocalypse, "Armageddon A-Go-Go" .( _( )_.’ http://www.internote.com/sdp/4_nurses.html ‘—.~_ _ _& http://www.internote.com/sdp/phoebe.html I AM SCAMIZDAT *** The E-Meter can make the blind see (NOTS 22) *** FREE XENU Fight the criminal cult – Read alt.religion.scientology – Give to F.A.C.T.Net http://www.lightlink.com/factnet1/pages/contribute.html

Response:

Tim Brown is a Nazi who cancels other people’s posts. Get this scum off the ‘Net!

William Mullin is top official with the Unification Church who has been canceling my posts and setting me up by canceling his own. Get this scum off the Net! — YOU LIVE IN A RIGHT-WING DICTATORSHIP — REVOLT! Stop metric imperialism! Smash the radio monopolies!