Caring about people you just met online

Question:

Jean, I haven’t seen you ‘attack’ anything recently that didn’t deserve to be attacked. I haven’t seen you chase anyone around or follow them about the board. I have seen you respond when YOU were followed about the board. I’ve watched while you were stalked, accused, made fun of and laughed at and at times you have been silent. Others you have done exactly what I would have done which was to fight back. You have been fair and honest. I think that is a very healthy response. I don’t think anyone thinks of you as crazy. You are troubled, but then most of us are, right? Lord knows you have more reason than most lately. I don’t think I have ever seen you use that as an excuse for anything, or screwed up wildly here in the ng and used any problems you may be having as a way to get sympathy or deflect attention from what you did wrong. I think most people would agree that you are a very wonderful person and valuable member of the ng. I think if there is a discussion on people who use personal tragedies, real or imagined as a way to get out of trouble, your name would not likely come to many minds. I think that anyone of us, when told that our stalker is after us because we want him to be as some part of an S&M thing would be angry and outraged. I think most people know that no one chooses to be stalked or abused, no one asks for that, and that there is a vast difference between consensual sex play and abuse. I think your response to that was very healthy. I think you have come really far since you have been here, Jean, and I remain proud and pleased to call you my friend, and more to think of myself as yours.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jean said something about you don’t care about people you just met online after reading three or four lines from them, and of course she was immediately attacked, but I agree with her. Liz, do you see a disagreement as an attack in every case? I read the posts and didn’t see anything *attacking* Jean, but trying to figure out the point she was making and look at what was said from another angle. hiya dorothy, i know you have been reading here for some time, so i’m not going to go at you with the history angle, but sincerely – did you really see no attack? Against you, Jean? Not unless my server missed someone’s post. Read on in the thread. Pay careful attention to what is said and the way it is said. Keep in mind that when someone who hates your guts puts on a facade of syrupy care and concern over your "sad and lonely" qualities, I would deduce that what is actually being given is not concern, but faux pity, and it is given with the intent to hurt, not to heal. Oh, light just dawned. Thank you, Jean. I understand the part you were referring to now. OK. I see what you mean. I was trying to get only at the *caring about new people* and missed the actual part of what was said that was offensive to you. This is a difference in what I was focusing on.

Dorothy, you are freaking me out!! Seriously, what a delightful experience, and how rare it is, really, to talk to a person who disagrees with you about something, explain to them what it is exactly you meant/were referring to, and have them actually open up their mind enough to change their view of the situation! Extraordinary! i like it. ) thank you for doing that, in all sincerity. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just a thought. Abuse comes in many forms. Sometimes things are not obvious, as abusers have a habit of choosing their words carefully, very very carefully, but the message is loud and clear for those of us who are familiar with the language. I agree about that. I want to mention something about this that just happened and made me think more about the issue of how parents can be abusive to children even when they are *loving* in terms of how they see themselves and in terms of how others see them. Went to a Nina Simone concert here on Sunday with my husband. When we were in college, Nina was fighting the civil rights battle with her very strong protest songs and we heard her clearly. She has a daughter who is now singing professionally as well. It was not in my mind that the abuse issues would have anything to do with this concert, but what happened stunned me. Nina is probably in her late 60s or early 70s. Coming out on stage, it was obvious that she was frail and unwell. Her voice, however, is still strong, though no longer what it was and the audience was extremely up for the concert. Lots of interracial couples and gay couples were in the audience. After some songs and a few sets by the musicians, she brought her daughter out on stages. They sang a duet and if was lovely. I knew that they had been estranged, but it seemed that they were repairing their relationship. Then, the shock. I have no idea whether her daughter had prepared her mother beforehand for this. She sang a *tribute* to her mom that she had written called *The Child in Me.* Tribute? I was left numb. The whole lyric involved the fact that the child in her had died a little each time mom went on the road sacrificing her family for her people. Can that be a tribute? I don’t know, but for a moment, all I could see was a little girl crying "mommy pay attention to me, mommy, please love me,* in the adult woman that her daughter has become.

ahhh, this is interesting to me too, because you know what i would have seen, if i had witnessed that? I would have seen "mommy, i hate you", and "mommy, i want to humiilate you". You see you are projecting unto the event what is at the root of it, while i am looking at the event and assessing *imo* what is happening *at that moment* and seeing only the motivation that appears to exist *at that moment*. Interesting stuff dorothy. jean Dorothy —–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.2 for non-commercial use

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Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …but dorothy, was that the discussion? It wasn’t what i was talking about. Now I’m even more confused than I was before. I understand that you think trying to express concern for a new poster in aar is important. I admire you for that. I sometimes respond to a new poster, welcome to aar and all of that, but that’s rare. It doesn’t interest me - i’m interested in the meatier discussions. There are people here who welcome newcomers without fail, and it’s good of them to do it, too. Ok. I can understand that too. Each person has to decide how to handle a response to a new post on their own. What I was responding to was the fact that someone (maybe this was not you?) said something about the response to the newbie being hypocritical at least that was what I thought was meant by the words said.

well – i guess i was thinking about the kind of caring that is deep and meaningful, not the kind that is global and philosophical, an emotional caring as opposed to a principle of caring. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It isn’t the kind of thing i do, dorothy. And by the way in case you are thinking what an uncaring sociopath that jean is <g, i’m not, i care deeply and passionately about my friends. I’m willing to listen and be open to caring about those who wander in, but it isn’t something that i offer lightly. Got it. Besides, dorothy, i’m a pretty messed up person. There are many people who might choose to stay away from me – many here do. I can understand that, believe me. I’m here more for my own sake than for anyone else’s. I know that’s a perspective which you can’t truly understand, since you are not a self professed "messed up person". More power to you, dorothy – and welcome to my perspective, a little bit different but still ….. okay. jean Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me. And messed up is all in the eyes of the beholder. Each of us is a little messed up unless we are not human, Jean. It’s just that what messed us up may be different or the degree of messiness may be different, I think.

i think you are right about that, dorothy… but i’m an absolute pigsty. :) jean i suppose i consider myself kind of an unsafe person when it comes to newcomers. i almost always take it slow with them… jean Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown

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Response:

De nada, sweetie. I do know. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jean, I haven’t seen you ‘attack’ anything recently that didn’t deserve to be attacked. I haven’t seen you chase anyone around or follow them about the board. I have seen you respond when YOU were followed about the board. I’ve watched while you were stalked, accused, made fun of and laughed at and at times you have been silent. Others you have done exactly what I would have done which was to fight back. You have been fair and honest. I think that is a very healthy response. I don’t think anyone thinks of you as crazy. You are troubled, but then most of us are, right? Lord knows you have more reason than most lately. I don’t think I have ever seen you use that as an excuse for anything, or screwed up wildly here in the ng and used any problems you may be having as a way to get sympathy or deflect attention from what you did wrong. I think most people would agree that you are a very wonderful person and valuable member of the ng. I think if there is a discussion on people who use personal tragedies, real or imagined as a way to get out of trouble, your name would not likely come to many minds. I think that anyone of us, when told that our stalker is after us because we want him to be as some part of an S&M thing would be angry and outraged. I think most people know that no one chooses to be stalked or abused, no one asks for that, and that there is a vast difference between consensual sex play and abuse. I think your response to that was very healthy. I think you have come really far since you have been here, Jean, and I remain proud and pleased to call you my friend, and more to think of myself as yours. oh my god liz, i’m so incredibly touched by this. wow. thank you very much. i’m not gonna do the obligatory = i love you thing. but you know, right? thank you. ((liz)) jean Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jean, I haven’t seen you ‘attack’ anything recently that didn’t deserve to be attacked. I haven’t seen you chase anyone around or follow them about the board. I have seen you respond when YOU were followed about the board. I’ve watched while you were stalked, accused, made fun of and laughed at and at times you have been silent. Others you have done exactly what I would have done which was to fight back. You have been fair and honest. I think that is a very healthy response. I don’t think anyone thinks of you as crazy. You are troubled, but then most of us are, right? Lord knows you have more reason than most lately. I don’t think I have ever seen you use that as an excuse for anything, or screwed up wildly here in the ng and used any problems you may be having as a way to get sympathy or deflect attention from what you did wrong. I think most people would agree that you are a very wonderful person and valuable member of the ng. I think if there is a discussion on people who use personal tragedies, real or imagined as a way to get out of trouble, your name would not likely come to many minds. I think that anyone of us, when told that our stalker is after us because we want him to be as some part of an S&M thing would be angry and outraged. I think most people know that no one chooses to be stalked or abused, no one asks for that, and that there is a vast difference between consensual sex play and abuse. I think your response to that was very healthy. I think you have come really far since you have been here, Jean, and I remain proud and pleased to call you my friend, and more to think of myself as yours.

oh my god liz, i’m so incredibly touched by this. wow. thank you very much. i’m not gonna do the obligatory = i love you thing. but you know, right? thank you. ((liz)) jean Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

but can there not be conflict & anger w/out all the venom polly wog

In both groups, the only real obligation to a new poster is not to hurt them. And, actually, that’s not really an obligation either. This is Usenet, so there are almost no limitations on what anybody can say to anybody about anything. I agree with it being a moral obligation, and would like to see it used generally, but it’s not a practical limit. That’s something that I keep jumping on, I know, but it’s one of the facts of life about here that I don’t see a huge concensus acceptance of. I see a desire on the part of some (and I don’t have specific people here in mind, but I’ve seen it stated many different times by many different people, including me) to pretend that this place is what someone or the other would wish it to be, and to perhaps punish those who will not play by those rules. This is a forum that functions more directly on choices made in moments than much of any other forum anyone can be in — any of us can elect spontaneously to never come back here and read anything here ever again and none of us would ever have to even wander by it again even once. Or we can stop reading a thread, or stop reading anything said by an individual, or whatever. We can post or not post anything we wish. Oh, sorry. Beating my old drums again. Hello Blain, it’s nice to see you back around these parts. I remember when you left – if i recall, you were a little disappointed by apathy about some stuff you were involved in – i always felt bad about that. Anyway, it’s nice to see you again. I just have to chime in with my agreement on the above. It seems to me that, with this group in particular, and the subject matter we discuss, there is an expectation of – what - compassion, maybe? Acceptance? A lack of anger, a lack of conflict? Obviously that isn’t the case. I can understand the expectation, but it will never be a therapeutic environment, and though some people find it to be and others find it not to be, that really isn’t a reasonable expectation. It certainly can be a supportive environment. Or not. It depends where you are sitting, i suppose. It’s different things to different people. Just like life. jean Take care, Blain — http://www.blainn.cc/abuse/ and the greatest of these is love

Response:

thank you panther polly wog

Hi polly Just wanted to let you know it was not me who posted this. Both Saab and Crisis are also currently using my account. But how are ya grrlllllll! Panther and the greatest of these is love

Response:

Against you, Jean? Not unless my server missed someone’s post. Read on in the thread. Pay careful attention to what is said and the way it is said. Keep in mind that when someone who hates your guts puts on a facade of syrupy care and concern over your "sad and lonely" qualities, I would deduce that what is actually being given is not concern, but faux pity, and it is given with the intent to hurt, not to heal.

Oh, light just dawned. Thank you, Jean. I understand the part you were referring to now. OK. I see what you mean. I was trying to get only at the *caring about new people* and missed the actual part of what was said that was offensive to you. This is a difference in what I was focusing on. Just a thought. Abuse comes in many forms. Sometimes things are not obvious, as abusers have a habit of choosing their words carefully, very very carefully, but the message is loud and clear for those of us who are familiar with the language.

I agree about that. I want to mention something about this that just happened and made me think more about the issue of how parents can be abusive to children even when they are *loving* in terms of how they see themselves and in terms of how others see them. Went to a Nina Simone concert here on Sunday with my husband. When we were in college, Nina was fighting the civil rights battle with her very strong protest songs and we heard her clearly. She has a daughter who is now singing professionally as well. It was not in my mind that the abuse issues would have anything to do with this concert, but what happened stunned me. Nina is probably in her late 60s or early 70s. Coming out on stage, it was obvious that she was frail and unwell. Her voice, however, is still strong, though no longer what it was and the audience was extremely up for the concert. Lots of interracial couples and gay couples were in the audience. After some songs and a few sets by the musicians, she brought her daughter out on stages. They sang a duet and if was lovely. I knew that they had been estranged, but it seemed that they were repairing their relationship. Then, the shock. I have no idea whether her daughter had prepared her mother beforehand for this. She sang a *tribute* to her mom that she had written called *The Child in Me.* Tribute? I was left numb. The whole lyric involved the fact that the child in her had died a little each time mom went on the road sacrificing her family for her people. Can that be a tribute? I don’t know, but for a moment, all I could see was a little girl crying "mommy pay attention to me, mommy, please love me,* in the adult woman that her daughter has become. Dorothy —–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.2 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com iQA/AwUBOTLuL/vOwN2HeUIhEQJO1gCeK7MD8ghPGHi1FtfWGXUtkJ5Yh9cAnjlr ttOz6eRWxlKv3t72OM3YcVSt =RcI/ —–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jean said something about you don’t care about people you just met online after reading three or four lines from them, and of course she was immediately attacked, but I agree with her. Liz, do you see a disagreement as an attack in every case? I read the posts and didn’t see anything *attacking* Jean, but trying to figure out the point she was making and look at what was said from another angle. hiya dorothy, i know you have been reading here for some time, so i’m not going to go at you with the history angle, but sincerely – did you really see no attack? Read on in the thread. Pay careful attention to what is said and the way it is said. Keep in mind that when someone who hates your guts puts on a facade of syrupy care and concern over your "sad and lonely" qualities, I would deduce that what is actually being given is not concern, but faux pity, and it is given with the intent to hurt, not to heal.

Exactly, and I know a couple of people here famous for that very thing. Jean, hang in there. People DID see that attack, and acknowledged it. It isn’t in your mind, you aren’t being paranoid or trying to start shit. It was there. Now ignore it. Just a thought. Abuse comes in many forms. Sometimes things are not obvious, as abusers have a habit of choosing their words carefully, very very carefully, but the message is loud and clear for those of us who are familiar with the language.

Yup <snippage for space

Response:

I get so tired of this silly crap. No one said it was a crime to care, or even came close to implying it and I have better things to do with my time than wade through the oversensitivity of people who have no idea or even care what people are really saying. I don’t think anyone has said they don’t care about apartheid in countries we never visited, or abused children we never met, or strangers we just meet. I care about strangers in so far as I wish them well, I hope they feel no pain, I’m glad when something good happens to them, I care that they have been hurt. But I don’t meet every new person and make them my very best friend. I don’t look at every new person, know them intimately or even *yuck* want to. Who wanst to know everyone deeply and intimately? I have few REAL friends. I pick them carefully and it takes a long time for me to trust them enough to invest any real part of myself in them. By the time I have done that, I usually know them fairly well, what their triggers are, what their sore spots and strengths are, when they are serious and when they are joking, even online. New people, I extend them courtesy if it is warranted, flame them if that is. In that respect, I don’t treat them any differently than I do my friends. The only diference I can see is that with frinds, or people I have known a while, I usually know what to stay away from, where to press gently and when to shut up. Now…if refusing to invest your heart and soul in every bloody face you meet is ok, can we get on with the discussion?

Response:

I’m sorry. I can’t resist. This setup is just *too* perfect… I’m assuming it’s hot outside, but I’m inside. I have seventy five fans. Het has no chance ; ) At last count I believe you had more than seventy-five fans, just counting the wimmen; are you saying Lyle, the "het," has no chance?

Grrrrr. HEAT. HEAT has no chance! And even that isn’t true. The seventy sixth fan, the ceiling unit above my desk, needed to be cleaned, and so do the carpets, so I just finished cleaning tha fan and the carpet in my ‘office’(which is really the dining area that we don’t use, preferring the living room), so I am pretty hot. And I have a blacony to do, two bikes, a closet to rearrange so the bikes can fit into it and after that is done, the rest of the living room carpet. Thank god I got the laundry done yesterday evening. Anyway, heat got a foot hold, somehow. The fan above me I almost never use, but still with all it’s grime and grease gone, it seems to be working really nicely. Probably more info than you needed, huh? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – azure, listening to Ann Reed — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: http://asarian-host.org/emailform.html

Response:

Hi polly Just wanted to let you know it was not me who posted this. Both Saab and Crisis are also currently using my account. But how are ya grrlllllll! Panther

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I like what you have to say here Panther. For me caring is something more general. I can care for a myriad of people I dont know, care about the state of affairs of things I am not involed w/. Identify w/ folks I don’t know… Maybe some of it is symantics. I think if I didn’t have caring I would be devoid of hope. I feel yuck & lost enough. caring about others can give me some meaning in life when I can’t seem to care much about myself. polly wog x-no-archive: yes No actually she said it in part about caring for people in general – it was a question of caring and she likened it to giving as in charities – like so….. She also was not attacked – she was disagreed with – there is a difference. I found her reply sad and lonely. However there are those who feel the same as she does and certainly have every right to do so. Caring is a thing that is very individual – as is giving – or loving. We each do it differently I think. And some of us don’t do it for various reasons – safety I think most times. I think it is the degree to which you do it and what meaning you put on caring. I care if an old man in a store falls and hurts his knee and I will stop to help him out of that caring – same with a puppy or a kitten that is hurt. Its not investing my heart in their lives – its caring about them for a space of time they are in mine. Helping them. I can see why you feel as you do however, it is often a safety issue with people your own or how they affect you. That is caring – caring to me does not have as deep a connection as love – caring can be very fleeting and temporary and does not bring with the need for a personal connection at all. I care enough to leave a bathroom without water all over the place or if I use a bath oil to clean it out of the tub so someone doesn’t slip and hurt themselves. I care about the person who comes after me. I don’t have to have a connection nor take on their life to help them. If someone has a problem I can sit and talk about it with them and help them look at their options without making it my problem or my solution. I care about their feelings without taking on their problem. That is what caring is to me. A stronger connection with the additional act of trust would be something more. At least to me. Caring can be very general. More specific feelings to me would have another name and another level of connection. I think people are individual in that. I don’t believe that – at least that is not true for me. You have to have Nor this – I think its an individual thing. I think many folks are able to read three lines and care. Some may read it and hit the next button. Neither is right or wrong – its just a difference in people. To me – not being affected when someone expresses pain, at least to some degree, is not possible. How I give voice to that depends on who the person is and where I am at the time in my emotional world. To me caring does not necessitate knowning someone. I care about starving children – I don’t know them indiviudally. To you. I think we each have our own definitions of these feelings. For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: http://asarian-host.org/emailform.html and the greatest of these is love

Response:

In both groups, the only real obligation to a new poster is not to hurt them. And, actually, that’s not really an obligation either.

I guess I’m talking about a moral obligation, or what I think should be one, assuming the new poster is someone genuine and not just some troll looking for kicks. This is Usenet, so there are almost no limitations on what anybody can say to anybody about anything. I agree with it being a moral obligation, and would like to see it used generally, but it’s not a practical limit.

No. It isn’t. In the real world, you have to deal with assholes, and you have to deal with people not loving every single aspect of your being. That’s another thing I think gets down to survivor stuff. There is a mindest among some people here who feel no criticism of any kind must be brooked because the person was at one time criticized and abused, so you must, to help them heal and feel safe, love respect and accept every single fiber of their being and not speak of those things you cannot accept. I don’t think you do anyone any favors that way. I think that part of healing should be being able to both function in the real world and develop mature, adult relationships and to do both, you have to learn how to handle criticism and the notion that not everything about you is respectable or loveable. That’s something that I keep jumping on, I know, but it’s one of the facts of life about here that I don’t see a huge concensus acceptance of. I see a desire on the part of some (and I don’t have specific people here in mind, but I’ve seen it stated many different times by many different people, including me) to pretend that this place is what someone or the other would wish it to be, and to perhaps punish those who will not play by those rules.

Oh boy do we agree on this. This is a forum that functions more directly on choices made in moments than much of any other forum anyone can be in — any of us can elect spontaneously to never come back here and read anything here ever again and none of us would ever have to even wander by it again even once. Or we can stop reading a thread, or stop reading anything said by an individual, or whatever. We can post or not post anything we wish.

I agree. I’ve said this more times than I can count. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, sorry. Beating my old drums again. Take care, Blain — http://www.blainn.cc/abuse/

Response:

<snippager for space – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a forum that functions more directly on choices made in moments than much of any other forum anyone can be in — any of us can elect spontaneously to never come back here and read anything here ever again and none of us would ever have to even wander by it again even once. Or we can stop reading a thread, or stop reading anything said by an individual, or whatever. We can post or not post anything we wish. Oh, sorry. Beating my old drums again. Hello Blain, it’s nice to see you back around these parts. I remember when you left – if i recall, you were a little disappointed by apathy about some stuff you were involved in – i always felt bad about that. Anyway, it’s nice to see you again. I just have to chime in with my agreement on the above. It seems to me that, with this group in particular, and the subject matter we discuss, there is an expectation of – what – compassion, maybe? Acceptance? A lack of anger, a lack of conflict?

That’s so unrealistic, too and plays into a really unhealthy pathology. Ironically, it is the same kind of denial and avoidance pathology that so many of us complain in in our abusers. Fact is, we are an angry group for the most part. Some people sublimate that, others embrace it, some have developed alters to handle it and some just can’t feel it at all. But for the most part, we are an angry group. To browbeat someone for expressing that anger, whether it is in the more acceptable form of ‘gee golly whilakers such and so I sure wish you wouldn’t do that and btw, want a coke and a flower?’ or my preferred method of saying ‘hey butthead, get your head out of your rear’ is ridiculous and dishonest. Conflict will happen. It all comes part and parcel with who we are and where we all come from. How you handle it may vary, but it is one thing we all have in common. Obviously that isn’t the case. I can understand the expectation, but it will never be a therapeutic environment, and though some people find it to be and others find it not to be, that really isn’t a reasonable expectation.

You can’t really heal, imo, until you work through the anger. That just seems impossible to me. I know some people cringe when they are confronted with anger, but some of us cringe when we can’t express it. And it is far healthy to express it and deal with it than to hold it in and pretend it ain’t there. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It certainly can be a supportive environment. Or not. It depends where you are sitting, i suppose. It’s different things to different people. Just like life. jean Take care, Blain — http://www.blainn.cc/abuse/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jean said something about you don’t care about people you just met online after reading three or four lines from them, and of course she was immediately attacked, but I agree with her. Well – of course you do! How could anyone honestly say any different? Although I did read Tide’s response, and I know what he was saying too. When I said you were attacked, I wasn’t referring to Tide. Oh sheeeeit, liz, i know that! *wink wink*

I know. Just clarifying lest anyone else take that ball and run with it. <snippage for space – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, but i think that is what dave was trying to say. I’m not sure. I have alot of respect for dave, and note that people that are generally more emotionally detached than i am have an easier time with this general empathy to humanity thing. I think that may be where our difference in viewpoints lie – the other differing viewpoint i, of course, instantaneously dismissed as irrelevant. Well, you know how I feel about the whole sweetness and light, hand the world a coke and a smile, join hands and let us sing unto the heavens, routine. Honestly, I think people who swear they care about everyone are either lying to us or themselves, or both. And I think that mindset has a lot to do with survivor stuff…it’s just another reaction. Ooooh, that’s a great point, and if it wasn’t so hot and muggy here at the moment, i might even have the brain power to address it.

I’m assuming it’s hot outside, but I’m inside. I have seventy five fans. Het has no chance ; ) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think i’ll save this one in my drafts folder for later. ) jean thanks liz, jean

Response:

Jean said something about you don’t care about people you just met online after reading three or four lines from them, and of course she was immediately attacked, but I agree with her. To really care about someone, you have to invest your heart. If we invested our hearts in every single person we met, we would be constantly screwed and go insane. There’s no real way to do that. You can meet somebody, and wish them well, sympathize with their problems, feel concern for them, but what I think Jean was saying and I agree with her is that they do not immediately become part of your inner cricle of people you trust or would be able to reach past your own pain to get to, you know what I mean? To really care about someone, you have to know them. You have to have more from them than three lines in a ng. You can’t know someone from three lines in a ng. And feeling concern for them, the natural empathy most people have for other living beings is not the same thing.

Response:

Jean said something about you don’t care about people you just met online after reading three or four lines from them, and of course she was immediately attacked, but I agree with her.

Well – of course you do! How could anyone honestly say any different? Although I did read Tide’s response, and I know what he was saying too. To be honest, I don’t feel the need to reach out to every person that posts here, but i can honestly say that there is no one that I haven’t engaged with on this board whom i dislike. In order for me to dislike someone, i have to know them first. :) To really care about someone, you have to invest your heart. If we invested our hearts in every single person we met, we would be constantly screwed and go insane. There’s no real way to do that.

Absolutely. You can meet somebody, and wish them well, sympathize with their problems, feel concern for them, but what I think Jean was saying and I agree with her is that they do not immediately become part of your inner cricle of people you trust or would be able to reach past your own pain to get to, you know what I mean? To really care about someone, you have to know them. You have to have more from them than three lines in a ng. You can’t know someone from three lines in a ng. And feeling concern for them, the natural empathy most people have for other living beings is not the same thing.

No, but i think that is what dave was trying to say. I’m not sure. I have alot of respect for dave, and note that people that are generally more emotionally detached than i am have an easier time with this general empathy to humanity thing. I think that may be where our difference in viewpoints lie – the other differing viewpoint i, of course, instantaneously dismissed as irrelevant. thanks liz, jean

Response:

When I said you were attacked, I wasn’t referring to Tide. To be honest, I don’t feel the need to reach out to every person that posts here, but i can honestly say that there is no one that I haven’t engaged with on this board whom i dislike. In order for me to dislike someone, i have to know them first. :)

I don’t feel that need either. God help me if I ever become stretched that thin. I just don’t have an umlimited supply of stuff, and it can get really wearing after a while. There have been people I have *engaged* here that I came to like a lot. And others whom I dislike intensely, based on how well I have come to know them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To really care about someone, you have to invest your heart. If we invested our hearts in every single person we met, we would be constantly screwed and go insane. There’s no real way to do that. Absolutely. You can meet somebody, and wish them well, sympathize with their problems, feel concern for them, but what I think Jean was saying and I agree with her is that they do not immediately become part of your inner cricle of people you trust or would be able to reach past your own pain to get to, you know what I mean? To really care about someone, you have to know them. You have to have more from them than three lines in a ng. You can’t know someone from three lines in a ng. And feeling concern for them, the natural empathy most people have for other living beings is not the same thing. No, but i think that is what dave was trying to say. I’m not sure. I have alot of respect for dave, and note that people that are generally more emotionally detached than i am have an easier time with this general empathy to humanity thing. I think that may be where our difference in viewpoints lie – the other differing viewpoint i, of course, instantaneously dismissed as irrelevant.

Well, you know how I feel about the whole sweetness and light, hand the world a coke and a smile, join hands and let us sing unto the heavens, routine. Honestly, I think people who swear they care about everyone are either lying to us or themselves, or both. And I think that mindset has a lot to do with survivor stuff…it’s just another reaction. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thanks liz, jean

Response:

Jean said something about you don’t care about people you just met online after reading three or four lines from them, and of course she was immediately attacked, but I agree with her. Liz, do you see a disagreement as an attack in every case? I read the posts and didn’t see anything *attacking* Jean, but trying to figure out the point she was making and look at what was said from another angle.

hiya dorothy, i know you have been reading here for some time, so i’m not going to go at you with the history angle, but sincerely – did you really see no attack? Read on in the thread. Pay careful attention to what is said and the way it is said. Keep in mind that when someone who hates your guts puts on a facade of syrupy care and concern over your "sad and lonely" qualities, I would deduce that what is actually being given is not concern, but faux pity, and it is given with the intent to hurt, not to heal. Just a thought. Abuse comes in many forms. Sometimes things are not obvious, as abusers have a habit of choosing their words carefully, very very carefully, but the message is loud and clear for those of us who are familiar with the language. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To really care about someone, you have to invest your heart. So maybe we need a different word for what we are offering in answering a newbie’s post to the forum? I would be interested to hear what you might suggest that people say that would imply the kind of empathy and concern that I saw in the words: "I will listen and I care." If we invested our hearts in every single person we met, we would be constantly screwed and go insane. There’s no real way to do that. You can meet somebody, and wish them well, sympathize with their problems, feel concern for them, but what I think Jean was saying and I agree with her is that they do not immediately become part of your inner cricle of people you trust or would be able to reach past your own pain to get to, you know what I mean? I agree with that, but do you think that this is what was being offered in the post she answered? To really care about someone, you have to know them. You have to have more from them than three lines in a ng. You can’t know someone from three lines in a ng. And feeling concern for them, the natural empathy most people have for other living beings is not the same thing. OK. I agree, but can we get past that and talk about what words people think are helpful when trying to express the concern for a new person who posts in aar?

…but dorothy, was that the discussion? It wasn’t what i was talking about. I understand that you think trying to express concern for a new poster in aar is important. I admire you for that. I sometimes respond to a new poster, welcome to aar and all of that, but that’s rare. It doesn’t interest me - i’m interested in the meatier discussions. There are people here who welcome newcomers without fail, and it’s good of them to do it, too. It isn’t the kind of thing i do, dorothy. And by the way in case you are thinking what an uncaring sociopath that jean is <g, i’m not, i care deeply and passionately about my friends. I’m willing to listen and be open to caring about those who wander in, but it isn’t something that i offer lightly. Besides, dorothy, i’m a pretty messed up person. There are many people who might choose to stay away from me – many here do. I can understand that, believe me. I’m here more for my own sake than for anyone else’s. I know that’s a perspective which you can’t truly understand, since you are not a self professed "messed up person". More power to you, dorothy – and welcome to my perspective, a little bit different but still ….. okay. jean – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dorothy —–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.2 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com iQA/AwUBOTLuL/vOwN2HeUIhEQJO1gCeK7MD8ghPGHi1FtfWGXUtkJ5Yh9cAnjlr ttOz6eRWxlKv3t72OM3YcVSt =RcI/ —–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jean said something about you don’t care about people you just met online after reading three or four lines from them, and of course she was immediately attacked, but I agree with her. Well – of course you do! How could anyone honestly say any different? Although I did read Tide’s response, and I know what he was saying too. When I said you were attacked, I wasn’t referring to Tide.

Oh sheeeeit, liz, i know that! *wink wink* – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To be honest, I don’t feel the need to reach out to every person that posts here, but i can honestly say that there is no one that I haven’t engaged with on this board whom i dislike. In order for me to dislike someone, i have to know them first. :) I don’t feel that need either. God help me if I ever become stretched that thin. I just don’t have an umlimited supply of stuff, and it can get really wearing after a while. There have been people I have *engaged* here that I came to like a lot. And others whom I dislike intensely, based on how well I have come to know them. To really care about someone, you have to invest your heart. If we invested our hearts in every single person we met, we would be constantly screwed and go insane. There’s no real way to do that. Absolutely. You can meet somebody, and wish them well, sympathize with their problems, feel concern for them, but what I think Jean was saying and I agree with her is that they do not immediately become part of your inner cricle of people you trust or would be able to reach past your own pain to get to, you know what I mean? To really care about someone, you have to know them. You have to have more from them than three lines in a ng. You can’t know someone from three lines in a ng. And feeling concern for them, the natural empathy most people have for other living beings is not the same thing. No, but i think that is what dave was trying to say. I’m not sure. I have alot of respect for dave, and note that people that are generally more emotionally detached than i am have an easier time with this general empathy to humanity thing. I think that may be where our difference in viewpoints lie – the other differing viewpoint i, of course, instantaneously dismissed as irrelevant. Well, you know how I feel about the whole sweetness and light, hand the world a coke and a smile, join hands and let us sing unto the heavens, routine. Honestly, I think people who swear they care about everyone are either lying to us or themselves, or both. And I think that mindset has a lot to do with survivor stuff…it’s just another reaction.

Ooooh, that’s a great point, and if it wasn’t so hot and muggy here at the moment, i might even have the brain power to address it. I think i’ll save this one in my drafts folder for later. ) jean – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thanks liz, jean

Response:

In both groups, the only real obligation to a new poster is not to hurt them.

And, actually, that’s not really an obligation either. This is Usenet, so there are almost no limitations on what anybody can say to anybody about anything. I agree with it being a moral obligation, and would like to see it used generally, but it’s not a practical limit. That’s something that I keep jumping on, I know, but it’s one of the facts of life about here that I don’t see a huge concensus acceptance of. I see a desire on the part of some (and I don’t have specific people here in mind, but I’ve seen it stated many different times by many different people, including me) to pretend that this place is what someone or the other would wish it to be, and to perhaps punish those who will not play by those rules. This is a forum that functions more directly on choices made in moments than much of any other forum anyone can be in — any of us can elect spontaneously to never come back here and read anything here ever again and none of us would ever have to even wander by it again even once. Or we can stop reading a thread, or stop reading anything said by an individual, or whatever. We can post or not post anything we wish. Oh, sorry. Beating my old drums again. Take care, Blain — http://www.blainn.cc/abuse/

Response:

I like what you have to say here Panther. For me caring is something more general. I can care for a myriad of people I dont know, care about the state of affairs of things I am not involed w/. Identify w/ folks I don’t know… Maybe some of it is symantics. I think if I didn’t have caring I would be devoid of hope. I feel yuck & lost enough. caring about others can give me some meaning in life when I can’t seem to care much about myself. polly wog x-no-archive: yes No actually she said it in part about caring for people in general – it was a question of caring and she likened it to giving as in charities – like so….. She also was not attacked – she was disagreed with – there is a difference. I found her reply sad and lonely. However there are those who feel the same as she does and certainly have every right to do so. Caring is a thing that is very individual – as is giving – or loving. We each do it differently I think. And some of us don’t do it for various reasons – safety I think most times. I think it is the degree to which you do it and what meaning you put on caring. I care if an old man in a store falls and hurts his knee and I will stop to help him out of that caring – same with a puppy or a kitten that is hurt. Its not investing my heart in their lives – its caring about them for a space of time they are in mine. Helping them. I can see why you feel as you do however, it is often a safety issue with people your own or how they affect you. That is caring – caring to me does not have as deep a connection as love – caring can be very fleeting and temporary and does not bring with the need for a personal connection at all. I care enough to leave a bathroom without water all over the place or if I use a bath oil to clean it out of the tub so someone doesn’t slip and hurt themselves. I care about the person who comes after me. I don’t have to have a connection nor take on their life to help them. If someone has a problem I can sit and talk about it with them and help them look at their options without making it my problem or my solution. I care about their feelings without taking on their problem. That is what caring is to me. A stronger connection with the additional act of trust would be something more. At least to me. Caring can be very general. More specific feelings to me would have another name and another level of connection. I think people are individual in that. I don’t believe that – at least that is not true for me. You have to have Nor this – I think its an individual thing. I think many folks are able to read three lines and care. Some may read it and hit the next button. Neither is right or wrong – its just a difference in people. To me – not being affected when someone expresses pain, at least to some degree, is not possible. How I give voice to that depends on who the person is and where I am at the time in my emotional world. To me caring does not necessitate knowning someone. I care about starving children – I don’t know them indiviudally. To you. I think we each have our own definitions of these feelings. For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: http://asarian-host.org/emailform.html and the greatest of these is love

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In both groups, the only real obligation to a new poster is not to hurt them. And, actually, that’s not really an obligation either. This is Usenet, so there are almost no limitations on what anybody can say to anybody about anything. I agree with it being a moral obligation, and would like to see it used generally, but it’s not a practical limit. That’s something that I keep jumping on, I know, but it’s one of the facts of life about here that I don’t see a huge concensus acceptance of. I see a desire on the part of some (and I don’t have specific people here in mind, but I’ve seen it stated many different times by many different people, including me) to pretend that this place is what someone or the other would wish it to be, and to perhaps punish those who will not play by those rules. This is a forum that functions more directly on choices made in moments than much of any other forum anyone can be in — any of us can elect spontaneously to never come back here and read anything here ever again and none of us would ever have to even wander by it again even once. Or we can stop reading a thread, or stop reading anything said by an individual, or whatever. We can post or not post anything we wish. Oh, sorry. Beating my old drums again.

Hello Blain, it’s nice to see you back around these parts. I remember when you left – if i recall, you were a little disappointed by apathy about some stuff you were involved in – i always felt bad about that. Anyway, it’s nice to see you again. I just have to chime in with my agreement on the above. It seems to me that, with this group in particular, and the subject matter we discuss, there is an expectation of – what – compassion, maybe? Acceptance? A lack of anger, a lack of conflict? Obviously that isn’t the case. I can understand the expectation, but it will never be a therapeutic environment, and though some people find it to be and others find it not to be, that really isn’t a reasonable expectation. It certainly can be a supportive environment. Or not. It depends where you are sitting, i suppose. It’s different things to different people. Just like life. jean – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Take care, Blain — http://www.blainn.cc/abuse/

Response:

No. I read the posts and didn’t see anything *attacking* Jean, but trying to figure out the point she was making and look at what was said from another angle.

I see you saying you don’t feel Jean was *attacked*, but instead they were trying to figure out the point she was making. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To really care about someone, you have to invest your heart. So maybe we need a different word for what we are offering in answering a newbie’s post to the forum? I would be interested to hear what you might suggest that people say that would imply the kind of empathy and concern that I saw in the words: "I will listen and I care." If we invested our hearts in every single person we met, we would be constantly screwed and go insane. There’s no real way to do that. You can meet somebody, and wish them well, sympathize with their problems, feel concern for them, but what I think Jean was saying and I agree with her is that they do not immediately become part of your inner cricle of people you trust or would be able to reach past your own pain to get to, you know what I mean? I agree with that, but do you think that this is what was being offered in the post she answered?

I think Jean can offer any damn thing she wants, whether it is scorn or empathy for anyone’s post. I think Jean is a grown woman who is more than capable of forming her own opinions and choosing to let who she wants in or extend a hand to whom she wishes. I don’t think she or anyone else has an obligation at all with regard to any new poster except not to hurt them if they can. To really care about someone, you have to know them. You have to have more from them than three lines in a ng. You can’t know someone from three lines in a ng. And feeling concern for them, the natural empathy most people have for other living beings is not the same thing. OK. I agree, but can we get past that and talk about what words people think are helpful when trying to express the concern for a new person who posts in aar?

You can discuss what you wish, Dorothy. I disagree that it is a semantic argument. I disagree that we all need to be helpful. I think those people who want to be best buds with everyone they meet can do that, and those people who are more reserved and save their friendship for the people they have learned to trust and respect can do that. In both groups, the only real obligation to a new poster is not to hurt them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dorothy

Response:

Jean said something about you don’t care about people you just met online after reading three or four lines from them, and of course she was immediately attacked, but I agree with her.

Liz, do you see a disagreement as an attack in every case? I read the posts and didn’t see anything *attacking* Jean, but trying to figure out the point she was making and look at what was said from another angle. To really care about someone, you have to invest your heart.

So maybe we need a different word for what we are offering in answering a newbie’s post to the forum? I would be interested to hear what you might suggest that people say that would imply the kind of empathy and concern that I saw in the words: "I will listen and I care." If we invested our hearts in every single person we met, we would be constantly screwed and go insane. There’s no real way to do that. You can meet somebody, and wish them well, sympathize with their problems, feel concern for them, but what I think Jean was saying and I agree with her is that they do not immediately become part of your inner cricle of people you trust or would be able to reach past your own pain to get to, you know what I mean?

I agree with that, but do you think that this is what was being offered in the post she answered? To really care about someone, you have to know them. You have to have more from them than three lines in a ng. You can’t know someone from three lines in a ng. And feeling concern for them, the natural empathy most people have for other living beings is not the same thing.

OK. I agree, but can we get past that and talk about what words people think are helpful when trying to express the concern for a new person who posts in aar? Dorothy —–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.2 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com iQA/AwUBOTLuL/vOwN2HeUIhEQJO1gCeK7MD8ghPGHi1FtfWGXUtkJ5Yh9cAnjlr ttOz6eRWxlKv3t72OM3YcVSt =RcI/ —–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

Response:

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