Filed under: Protest Demonstration
Question:
I hope you’ll be with us in Manhattan on Sunday, August 29th, to protest the Republican National Convention. After an exhilarating yet crowded march past Madison Square Garden, what could be finer than a picnic in the wide open spaces of Central Park? Sunday looks to be a beautiful day, and I can’t wait to feel the sun’s warmth on my black t-shirt. Why come to park on Sunday afternoon? To thumb our collective nose at Bloomberg and company, obviously. Not that I’m advocating an unpermitted demonstration. Certainly Thomas Jefferson would be rolling in his grave at the notion of the freedoms in his Bill of Rights being exercised without the proper paperwork! All I’m suggesting is that after the UFPJ march past MSG, you might want to continue up 7th Avenue through Times Square, maybe pick up some food along the way, and join us for a lovely picnic in the park. When we get to the park, I suggest choosing a spot or wandering around in the southern half of the park (between the South End and the Great Lawn). There’s a map of the park at the Central Park Conservancy’s website: http://www.centralparknyc.org/virtualpark Be sure to mix and socialize with people outside your affinity group. Have an actual discussion of political issues and the change you want to see. Bring a guitar, another instrument, or a boombox and share some music. And while you’re in the neighborhood, make sure to drop by the Central Park Conservancy office at 14 E. 60th Street and let them know just how much you appreciate their position that Central Park should be off limits to large demonstrations. Not far away at Central Park’s Arsenal (830 5th Avenue) is the New York City Parks Department, and I’m sure they’d love a visit too. While you’re in the park, please respect all the plants, animals, cops, and other people you come across. Better yet, let’s try to leave the park in better shape than we found it. Consider taking a few trash bags with you on Sunday, and pick up any litter you see in the park. It would be great if someone in the media saw this and reported on it, but regardless, it would show that we value public space and it would undermine those who claim we would harm the park. Getting to the park from the march could be an adventure, so you should definitely have multiple options in mind. It’s a straight shot two mile walk up 7th Avenue from the march past MSG, but we should expect random and gratuitous street closings. You may have to detour over to 6th or 8th Avenue or farther to get past police barricades. Another option is the subway, but don’t rely on any particular station or train to be available. There’s a map of subway stops near MSG at: http://www.rncprotestrights.org/map.html And a map of the NYC subway system at: http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/route/ Most convenient would be the C train at 8th Avenue and 33rd/34th streets (if that stop is closed, go north to 42nd St). The C train follows 8th Ave along the west edge of the park, so get off anywhere between 59th St and 86th St. The 1/2/3/9 trains also have a stop at Penn Station and along 7th Ave between 33rd and 34th streets. The 1 & 9 make more stops: these can take you to 59th St (columbus Circle) at the southwest corner of the park. After that stop, these trains run a couple blocks west of the park. A good alternative plan would be to walk a block east from MSG on 32nd or 33rd street. B/D/F/V trains are accessible from 6th/Broadway/34th or 6th & 32nd. The B takes you to the same stops along the park’s western edge as the C, so get off between 59th and 86th streets. The D doesn’t make those stops, so you’d have to get off at 7th Ave and walk a few blocks north to the park. The F can take you to 57th St, two blocks north from there is the park. The V can take you to 5th Ave, a few blocks north from there is the park. The last subway option is to pick up a N/R/W/Q train from 32rd St near 6th Ave. Any of these can get you to 57th St (at 7th Ave), just south of the park. N/R/W can also get you to 5th Ave (at 59th St), the southeast corner of Central Park. No matter how long it takes you to reach the park, just be patient and keep your cool. We will act with kindness, not because the corporate media is watching, but because that’s who we are. After the park picnic, I would not be surprised if some demonstrators decide to head back down 7th Ave toward Times Square to further make their point, as RNC delegates descend on Broadway for their night on the town. In fact, demonstrators may even use the picnic in the park as a chance to plan, organize, and recruit for such evening activities. Whatever you do, my only advice is to follow the path of non-violent resistance. If we act and speak out of love and resist the temptation to focus on hate for the Bush regime, this can be a great day for positive change.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Previously in alt.politics… I hope you’ll be with us in Manhattan on Sunday, August 29th, to protest the Republican National Convention. Why are you protesting the convention? Don’t Republicans (as well as Democrats, Green, Libertarians, and Independents) have a right to convene to conduct their party business? Sure…and last I heard Democrats, (as well as Republicans, Green, Libertarians, and Independents) have a right to convene and voice their opinions. Of course, if it were up to Bush and Ashcroft, no one would have this right.
Of course you’re lying through your teeth, neither man having made any move whatever to prohibit anything you claim. Both Ashcroft and Bush are vulnerable. Why do you feel the need to make things up? And so badly, too!
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Previously in alt.politics… I hope you’ll be with us in Manhattan on Sunday, August 29th, to protest the Republican National Convention. Why are you protesting the convention? Don’t Republicans (as well as Democrats, Green, Libertarians, and Independents) have a right to convene to conduct their party business?
Sure…and last I heard Democrats, (as well as Republicans, Green, Libertarians, and Independents) have a right to convene and voice their opinions. Of course, if it were up to Bush and Ashcroft, no one would have this right. Coming Soon To NYC Bushland Where All Rich White Men Are Created Equal "Pay no attention to the man hacking into the voting machine. I am the Great and Powerful Bush"
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The Demo/Socialist "protest" will be a violent, screaming, raving insane freak show. You want to know the difference between conservatives ("reasoners") and liberal/socialist ("emotives")? Just watch.
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The Demo/Socialist "protest" will be a violent, screaming, raving insane freak show.
and that’s just the police.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hope you’ll be with us in Manhattan on Sunday, August 29th, to protest the Republican National Convention. Why are you protesting the convention? Don’t Republicans (as well as Democrats, Green, Libertarians, and Independents) have a right to convene to conduct their party business? While you’re in the park, please respect all the plants, animals, cops, and other people you come across. Better yet, let’s try to leave the park in better shape than we found it. Consider taking a few trash bags with you on Sunday, and pick up any litter you see in the park.
I’ve been to San Diego. It’s all crack-whores and KKK members who think Hitler was a swell guy.
Response:
I hope you’ll be with us in Manhattan on Sunday, August 29th, to protest the Republican National Convention.
Why are you protesting the convention? Don’t Republicans (as well as Democrats, Green, Libertarians, and Independents) have a right to convene to conduct their party business? While you’re in the park, please respect all the plants, animals, cops, and other people you come across. Better yet, let’s try to leave the park in better shape than we found it. Consider taking a few trash bags with you on Sunday, and pick up any litter you see in the park.
I’m all for that, but make sure you bring the big ones (55 gallons) since you can’t fit an anarcho-socialist in the smaller sizes. :O|
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Question:
Speaking of KKK= demokkkrates Sorry, the KKK is an ultra-conservative organization closer on the political spectrum to republicans. Terrell
Actually, the KKK was first and formost an organization that was established after the war between the States to bring order out of the chaos of Reconstruction. It was the only law in some areas of the South during that sad time in our nation’s history. The modern incarnation of the Klan is a reaction to the sweeping power of the Federal government to impose laws on the States. The South has never actually given up its views on States Rights as opposed to a strong, centrally controlled, government. There was a time in the South where the Klan was seen as a benevolent organization that actually served to elevate society in the South. Those days disappeared forever when the Klan became radicalized by racist attitudes. It was then that my own grandfather, a committed Democrat to his dying day, left the Klan because he could no longer support the twisted vision of the Klan as it had become in the 50’s and 60’s. However, the silly and slandarous notion that the GOP is somehow akin to the Klan because of the so-called "Southern" strategy begun by Goldwater and fully implimented by Mr. Nixon, is just that, slander. It is the last refuge of the ignorant Left that would rather rant than read a book. The fact is that members of the Klan have always tended to be Democrats and that there are now more Klansmen in Ohio than Georgia. If there are similarities at all it is in the fact that the South and native Southroners find the GOP more akin to their vision of a weak federal government and a strong State government. What is more interesting is the transformation of the GOP in the Southron states where a few years ago a respectable Southroner would never vote for a Republican. The South was solidly Democrat. Rather than make the silly accusation that the "religious right" is the KKK, it would be a more profitable use of the Left’s time to explore just why they lost the South and the West in the US. This election will be close again because this nation is going through a demographic shift and has been approaching this for several election cycles. The Right is now reaching parity with the Left and this hasn’t happened since before the Great Depression. Eurpoe screams about this because they too are going through a similar demographic shift and the old Left is tired and out of ideas. The Left, thank God, has finally been discredited, and soon it will join the other failed ideologies of the past on the dust bin of history. We are witnessing the death throws of a failed political system, thank God. My only prayer is that I be allowed the honor of throwing the final shovel full of dirt onto the coffin of the Left.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry, the KKK is an ultra-conservative organization closer on the political spectrum to republicans. Well it is clear to all of us that you have absolutely no clue about the KKK or what a conservative, ultra or otherwise is, for the two are mutually exclusive. A person can not be "radical" and "conservative" at the same time, in fact they are generally opposite sides of the political spectrum. It seems that your entire knowledge base on either topic comes from Hollywood and Leftist malcontents who have no love for the truth nor even a desire for a fleeting glance at it. The KKK got its rise in the south to combat Reconstruction (1865-1877). There are a number of resouces out there that will inform you as to which political party was in power during Reconstruction. I’ll spare you the suspense: Republicans. Lincoln was a Republican who freed the slaves, and if it wasn’t for his vice President Andrew Johnson who succeeded him after the assasination we would have had an unbroken of chain of Republicans until Grover Cleveland in 1885. The main focus of the KKK was to resist Republican Reconstruction of the South. Which party do you think resists the Republicans? So what party do you think the KKK sided? And what was a primary goal of the KKK? To keep black men from voting. (Women couldn’t vote until Amendment XIX – a Republican measure – was passed in 1920 though Wyoming women – a conservative state – were voting as early as Dec 10, 1869) And which party today strongly resists Republican efforts to raise the economic boats of all people, including blacks? The Demoncats. The Demoncats have demanded that oppresive programs and laws not only stay but are strenghthened (Many prominent Demoncats vehemently opposed the Civil Rights Amendment such as Al Gore’s father). In fact, the NAACP, along with the Negro College Fund and a plethora of other racist organizations exist to maintain division and segregation between blacks and the rest of the population. And which political party is in bed with these groups? The party of the KKK and John F’ing sKerry. Seven score years later the KKK and the Demoncats are doing the same thing. But maybe you weren’t referring to the original KKK, maybe you were referring to the 2nd KKK which was founded in 1915 by Bill Simmons. What were some of the things raised beyond White Supremacy – a basic Demoncat belief? Intense nativism, anti-Catholicism and anti Semitism. Though they claimed to be apolitical they were indeed responsible for the election of Demoncats in state offices and in the US congress – particularly states like Texas, Oklahoma, Indiana, Oregeon and as far as Maine. They also frequently engaged in violent demonstration. Now which political party affiliates itself with violent protesters such as ELF and the ironically "War Protest" groups ? If you guessed the Demoncats, you were right! Which political party is anti-semitic? The Demoncats! For the Demoncat party praises the Israel hating muderous tyrant Sodamn Insane and the Demoncats consider the Palestinian terrorists to be noble warriors against the evil Zionists. To which party does Jesse "Hymietown" Jackson belong? Jewish conspiracy theories have always found a home in both black and white Demoncat strongholds. On the other side of the spectrum, probably the only reason why the US keeps any ties to Israel is because of the large number of influential fundamentalist Christians who are Israel’s greatest friend due to her alleged role in the Last Days. These members of the Religious Right are in which party? That’s right, the Republicans. Phyllis Schlafly, Sean Hannity, G Gordon Liddy, Pat Buchanan and scores of other professing Catholics are considered to be "extreme right", and these people are warmly embraced by Republicans. The Demoncats hate Catholics and mock them in movies, in jokes, in the news and try to do nothing more than tear them down at every turn. If one Catholic priest molests a child, then ALL Catholics are considered pedophiles. (the number of child molestations conducted by Demoncat teachers, though orders of magnitude greater, is rarely if ever reported) Catholics honor family and treasure life. Demoncats wish nothing more than to destroy the nuclear family – redefining it out of existance, and Demoncats proudly wear T-shirts proclaiming to the world that they have murdered their own children. (i.e. Planned Parenthood’s "I had an Abortion" T-shirt available at the 2004 Demoncat convention) Now the hard left wants to call Ronald Reagan an "ultra conservative", yet it was RWR who granted amnesty to the illegal alien population. The hard left calls George W Bush a "right wing conservative" and he too is calling for blanket amnesty for tens of millions of illegal aliens. What was that about strong "nativism"? The Demoncats preach "Diversity", but when you look in Demoncat boardrooms and Demoncat Administration cabinets you find nothing but white men. "Diversity" is for the unwashed masses, but for the annointed, they only want Diversity to scrub their toilets and serve them meals. And which political party do the unions who scream for more protectionism side with? The Demoncats. Yep, the Demoncats, full of hypocrisy and full of lies. By calling the KKK "ultra conservative" you do nothing more than shine a blinding searchlight on the primary Demoncat identifying characteristics.
Some good comments on the rhetoric of the divisive victem mythology left. — May God Bless You Michael GROWING OLDER IS MANDATORY. GROWING UP IS OPTIONAL. We make a Living by what we get, We make a Life by what we give.
Response:
Speaking of KKK= demokkkrates Sorry, the KKK is an ultra-conservative organization closer on the political spectrum to republicans.
Actually, I agree with you absolutely. PeterT – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Terrell
Response:
Sorry, the KKK is an ultra-conservative organization closer on the political spectrum to republicans.
Well it is clear to all of us that you have absolutely no clue about the KKK or what a conservative, ultra or otherwise is, for the two are mutually exclusive. A person can not be "radical" and "conservative" at the same time, in fact they are generally opposite sides of the political spectrum. It seems that your entire knowledge base on either topic comes from Hollywood and Leftist malcontents who have no love for the truth nor even a desire for a fleeting glance at it. The KKK got its rise in the south to combat Reconstruction (1865-1877). There are a number of resouces out there that will inform you as to which political party was in power during Reconstruction. I’ll spare you the suspense: Republicans. Lincoln was a Republican who freed the slaves, and if it wasn’t for his vice President Andrew Johnson who succeeded him after the assasination we would have had an unbroken of chain of Republicans until Grover Cleveland in 1885. The main focus of the KKK was to resist Republican Reconstruction of the South. Which party do you think resists the Republicans? So what party do you think the KKK sided? And what was a primary goal of the KKK? To keep black men from voting. (Women couldn’t vote until Amendment XIX – a Republican measure – was passed in 1920 though Wyoming women – a conservative state – were voting as early as Dec 10, 1869) And which party today strongly resists Republican efforts to raise the economic boats of all people, including blacks? The Demoncats. The Demoncats have demanded that oppresive programs and laws not only stay but are strenghthened (Many prominent Demoncats vehemently opposed the Civil Rights Amendment such as Al Gore’s father). In fact, the NAACP, along with the Negro College Fund and a plethora of other racist organizations exist to maintain division and segregation between blacks and the rest of the population. And which political party is in bed with these groups? The party of the KKK and John F’ing sKerry. Seven score years later the KKK and the Demoncats are doing the same thing. But maybe you weren’t referring to the original KKK, maybe you were referring to the 2nd KKK which was founded in 1915 by Bill Simmons. What were some of the things raised beyond White Supremacy – a basic Demoncat belief? Intense nativism, anti-Catholicism and anti Semitism. Though they claimed to be apolitical they were indeed responsible for the election of Demoncats in state offices and in the US congress – particularly states like Texas, Oklahoma, Indiana, Oregeon and as far as Maine. They also frequently engaged in violent demonstration. Now which political party affiliates itself with violent protesters such as ELF and the ironically "War Protest" groups ? If you guessed the Demoncats, you were right! Which political party is anti-semitic? The Demoncats! For the Demoncat party praises the Israel hating muderous tyrant Sodamn Insane and the Demoncats consider the Palestinian terrorists to be noble warriors against the evil Zionists. To which party does Jesse "Hymietown" Jackson belong? Jewish conspiracy theories have always found a home in both black and white Demoncat strongholds. On the other side of the spectrum, probably the only reason why the US keeps any ties to Israel is because of the large number of influential fundamentalist Christians who are Israel’s greatest friend due to her alleged role in the Last Days. These members of the Religious Right are in which party? That’s right, the Republicans. Phyllis Schlafly, Sean Hannity, G Gordon Liddy, Pat Buchanan and scores of other professing Catholics are considered to be "extreme right", and these people are warmly embraced by Republicans. The Demoncats hate Catholics and mock them in movies, in jokes, in the news and try to do nothing more than tear them down at every turn. If one Catholic priest molests a child, then ALL Catholics are considered pedophiles. (the number of child molestations conducted by Demoncat teachers, though orders of magnitude greater, is rarely if ever reported) Catholics honor family and treasure life. Demoncats wish nothing more than to destroy the nuclear family – redefining it out of existance, and Demoncats proudly wear T-shirts proclaiming to the world that they have murdered their own children. (i.e. Planned Parenthood’s "I had an Abortion" T-shirt available at the 2004 Demoncat convention) Now the hard left wants to call Ronald Reagan an "ultra conservative", yet it was RWR who granted amnesty to the illegal alien population. The hard left calls George W Bush a "right wing conservative" and he too is calling for blanket amnesty for tens of millions of illegal aliens. What was that about strong "nativism"? The Demoncats preach "Diversity", but when you look in Demoncat boardrooms and Demoncat Administration cabinets you find nothing but white men. "Diversity" is for the unwashed masses, but for the annointed, they only want Diversity to scrub their toilets and serve them meals. And which political party do the unions who scream for more protectionism side with? The Demoncats. Yep, the Demoncats, full of hypocrisy and full of lies. By calling the KKK "ultra conservative" you do nothing more than shine a blinding searchlight on the primary Demoncat identifying characteristics.
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You should read the history of the 1936 Democratic convention at the old Madison Square Garden in New York City. You will certainly be surprised at the influence of the KKK. At that time, the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan were very strong in upstate New York. Al
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Speaking of KKK= demokkkrates
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"A coincidence is a scientific anomaly." — Gil Grissom CSI: Crime Scene Investigation, Season 3, Episode 12 Sir Winston Churchill correctly complained that Joseph "Gangsta" Kennedy was a pro-hitler nazi coward and defeatist who did not deserve the privilege of serving the Court of St. James. Churchill was disgusted at how such a criminal as the elder Kennedy would try to schmooze with his English superiors. Inferior hitler had inferior muslim allies. So it is no surprise that just as his anti-Semite nazi father appeased hitler, Ted "Chappaquidick" Kennedy is today appeasing racist sexist muslim terrorists. Forget the Sopranos, the KKKennedy KKKlan is THE Family: John "Fuck her" Kennedy’s countless extramarital affairs even included the nazi spy, Inga Arvad. See Nigel Hamilton. JFK: Reckless Youth. Random House, Inc. Kerry Voting Record More Liberal Than Perfect Bastard Kennedy http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1079904/posts "Ted Kennedy I don’t trust either. He’s the perfect bastard." — Mrs. Theresa "Flip-flopper" Heinz Kerry
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What’s with all the Kerry bashing? In one breath you repugnants accuse him of being responsible for everything from the holocaust to global warming, then in the next breath you say you don’t know anything about him, or what he stands for. You people are about as bipolar as the fuhror-in-chief you idolize.
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Speaking of KKK= demokkkrates
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Hardly! Read a book! The religious right actually opposed segregation. But I don’t think you’ld let the facts confuse you! – = – Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia’81+, Bio$trategist BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm —{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}— [Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards] [Health Reform means abolishing FDR's insurance tax exemption] [To stop SPAM, Charge net-postage] [Abolish 16th (Inc Tx) Amendment]
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Speaking of KKK= demokkkrates
Sorry, the KKK is an ultra-conservative organization closer on the political spectrum to republicans. Terrell
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– – – – -Speaking of KKK= demokkkrates – – Sorry, the KKK is an ultra-conservative organization closer on the -political spectrum to republicans. – – -Terrell "The fact is that the GOP is still the only place where a klansman can feel at home." —David Duke, 2002 A Quick Hostory of the GIO on Race: n 1964, the Republican Party was practically defunct in five Deep South states. Republican presidential candidate Barry Goldwater set out to change that by riding the first tide of white backlash. He opposed the 1964 civil rights bill and championed states’ rights–the major cover that Southern states used to disenfranchise African Americans. Goldwater got the GOP nomination–with the help of nearly every Southern delegate. Despite his landslide loss to Lyndon B. Johnson, Goldwater planted the seeds of racial pandering that would be the centerpiece of the Republicans’ "Southern strategy" in the coming decades. The strategy was simple: Court white voters, ignore blacks and do and say as little as possible about civil rights. It’s no surprise, then, that in 1968, Richard M. Nixon picked the hot-button issues of busing and quotas; adopted the policy of benign neglect; and subtly stoked white racial fears. As we now know from his White House tapes, Nixon routinely peppered his private talk with derogatory quips about blacks. In public, he enshrined in popular language such racially tinged code terms as "welfare cheats," "culturally deprived," "law and order" and "lack of family values." Everyone knew who he was talking about. Ronald Reagan, in his turn, launched a major attack on affirmative action programs and gutted many social and education programs that benefited minorities. He refused to meet with the Congressional Black Caucus, attempted to reduce the power of the Civil Rights Commission over employment discrimination cases and opposed the extension of the 1965 Voting Rights Act. (Reagan’s attorney general, Ed Meese, complained that the act discriminated against the South.) In 1988, George Bush the elder took racial politics to a new low when he used Willie Horton against Michael Dukakis. Bush also branded a bill that would have made it easier to bring employment discrimination suits a "quotas" bill and vetoed it. He further infuriated blacks by appointing an arch-conservative African American, Clarence Thomas, to the U.S. Supreme Court. Bush’s and Reagan’s thinly disguised racial salvos were too much even for Colin Powell. In his autobiography, "My American Journey," the general called Reagan "insensitive" on racial issues and tagged Bush’s Horton stunt "a cheap shot." In 1998, the Republican Party had a golden opportunity to denounce extremist, race-baiting groups when it was revealed that Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott of Mississippi and Georgia Rep. Bob Barr had cozied up to the pro-segregation Council for Conservative Citizens. No leader in the party said a word. As for the new President Bush, before, during and after his campaign, he repeatedly promised a total racial make-over of the Republican Party. His appointments of African Americans to top posts–including Condoleezza Rice as national security advisor, Powell as secretary of State and Rod Paige as secretary of Education–supposedly signals that he means what he says. But those appointments can’t wipe away the rotten taste left when, during the campaign, Bush spoke at racially archaic Bob Jones University, or when he ducked the Confederate flag fight, or when he refused to support tougher hate crimes legislation. Not to mention the racially destructive battle he ignited by appointing ultra-conservative John Ashcroft as attorney general. Undoubtedly there’s more to Armey’s extended hand to the NAACP than an urge for racial reconciliation. In 2004, more Republicans than Democrats are up for reelection in the Senate and the House. If Republicans want to keep their majorities, they will need black votes. But it’s no accident that blacks, despite their gripes about the Democratic Party, have given Democrats 80% to 90% of their vote since the Goldwater rebuff in 1964. Republicans have blown every chance to prove that they are not mortal enemies of civil rights. Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian http://Rainbow-Christian.tk The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I’m Gay http://Ninure-Saunders.tk Take my polls http://ninure.100megsfree5.com My Yahoo Group http://Ninure.tk My Online Diary http://www.ninure.deardiary.net – Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches http://www.MCCchurch.org To send e-mail, remove nohate from address
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Million Worker March shows labor on the move By Milt Neidenberg Timing is often critical when taking on a struggle to advance the cause of the workers and oppressed. And political program is primary for prosecuting the class struggle. On both counts, the proposal for an Oct. 17 Million Worker March (MWM) on Washington gets high marks. Although time is short and resources are slim, fulfillment of this splendid objective will lay the basis for building an independent, class-wide movement. On Feb. 26, as the election-year rhetoric of the capitalist parties began to heat up, Local 10 of the International Long shore and Warehouse Union (ILWU) in San Francisco proposed this bold initiative. They passed a resolution that a call be sent out to "unions, labor councils and labor organizations, as well as other organizations to which workers belong, whether organized or not, so they can take similar actions to organize this march as soon as possible." The Million Worker March was born. This militant union is nationally known for its leading role in the struggle against the Iraq war and the anti-labor offensive at home. On April 7, 2003, ILWU Local 10 was involved in a demonstration against the Iraq war. They honored a picket line outside the Oakland terminals of the Stevedoring Services of America (SSA), a major contractor chosen by the Defense Department to rebuild the largest seaport in Iraq. The protest shut the SSA down. The action led to a brutal attack by the Oakland police. The April ILWU Dispatch vividly describes the event: "They unleashed waves of terror with barrages of lethal rubber bullets, concussion grenades and bean bags filled with metal shot and wooden pellets, to break up the picket line. Scores were injured, many sent to the hospital with severe wounds. Twenty-four protesters and an ILWU business agent were arrested." Marking the one-year anniversary on April 7, 2004, hundreds of protesters held a rally at the Alameda County court house, marched to an SSA terminal and shut down the entire second shift. Two weeks later the Alameda district attorney dropped all charges against the protesters. Time for independent struggle Following the victory, on May 22, an MWM kickoff rally was held. It sent a strong message that it is time to take the road of independent class struggle and break labor’s traditional ties to the "lesser of two evils"–the Democratic Party. Clarence Thomas, executive board member of ILWU Local 10 and a nationally-known African American labor union leader, issued the appeal. "This is a Call to working people to unite and mobilize around our own agenda. For the past decade we have been subjected to an unrestrained corporate assault. This is the moment, this is the time for us to advance our own demands, our needs and to proclaim a political agenda in our own vital interests." Thomas and Trent Willis, another Local 10 leader who is African American, were declared co-conveners for MWM. Over 250 participated in the rally, representing labor unionists, community acti vists and anti-war protesters from around the country. Chris Silvera–secretary-treasurer of Teamsters Local 808 in Long Island City, N.Y., and chairperson of the Teamster’s National Black Caucus–summed up the sentiment of the rally. "Now you can sit around and wait for Kerry to do something. But we are going to Washington to shake up the house. We need to take back our country, take back our rights and rip up the Patriot Act." Individual endorsers included community org ani zers, anti-war representatives and fighters for civil rights like Dick Gregory, Danny Glover and Casey Kasem. The undocumented were represented by the San Fran cisco Day Laborers Pro gram. Within a short time, the entire ILWU Long shore Division endorsed MWM, in spite of the ILWU Inter national endorse ment of John Kerry. Brenda Stokely gave a passionate appeal to build MWM. She is president of District Council 1707 of the American Federation of State, County, Muni ci pal Employees in New York, and a nationally-known African American woman who is a labor leader and a strong opponent of the Iraq war. At the recent AFSCME convention of more than 3,000 delegates held in Anaheim, Calif., Stokely was among a number of progressive and anti-war delegates who presented a resolution to end the occupation and bring the troops home. It passed overwhelmingly in spite of an effort by International President Gerald McEntee to water it down. Under Stokely’s leadership, District Council 1707 proposed a resolution to support the MWM. The resolution was tabled, but the AFSCME constitution provides avenues for the fight to continue. The Coalition of Black Trade Unionists, the South Carolina State AFL-CIO and numerous other locals and councils have joined the initiative. The National Education Association (NEA), with 2.7 million members, announ ced it is backing the MWM. The NEA has affiliates in every state who work in education–from pre-school to university grad uate programs. Its affiliates are in more than 13,000 communities across the U.S. The MWM is growing in influence and numbers. Break with big-business parties Fearful that this development will undermine the "anybody but Bush" campaign, the AFL-CIO leadership has opened up an attack on the MWM. On June 23, AFL-CIO President John Sweeney, through the director of the Field Mobilization Department, sent a memorandum to all State Federations and Cen tral Labor Councils of the AFL-CIO. It read in part, "The AFL-CIO is not a co-sponsor of this effort and we will not be devoting resources or energies toward mobilizing demonstrations this fall. … We think it is absolutely crucial that we commit the efforts of our labor movement to removing George W. Bush from office." In a column entitled "Reclaim America," Sween ey praises Kerry’s record on behalf of labor. "President Bush’s failed policies and Senator John Kerry’s (D-Mass) plans to create good jobs," Sweeney wrote, "ensure health coverage and restore pride and momentum to a nation tarnished by the Bush administration’s domestic heartlessness and international incompetence." (America at Work, June/July 2004) By "international incompetence," Sweeney is referring to the U.S. quagmire in Iraq. The Democrats and Kerry are for internationalizing the conflict and putting more troops and resources into the occupation that has already led to mounting casualties and the diversion of huge amounts of money from social services to the Pentagon. It will only prolong death and destruction for the Iraqi people as well. Kerry voted for the Iraq War and recently the Senate voted 98-0 to expand the Pentagon budget to more than $400 billion. It would be wise for the AFL-CIO to distance itself from the Democrats’ position on the war and to demand: end the occupation and bring the troops home now. The Service Employees International Union, the largest AFL-CIO affiliate, overwhelmingly passed this anti-war resolution at its June convention. To build an independent, class-wide movement, it is indispensable to break with the two capitalist parties. The AFL-CIO must break the chains binding it to Kerry and the Democratic Party. Kerry’s labor record has to be exposed, not covered up. It has been 10 years since the North American Free Trade Agree ment (NAFTA) passed with his blessing, and to this day he is a supporter of NAFTA as an exemplary model for all U.S. imperialist trade agreements. NAFTA has been a horrendous disaster for the workers, oppressed and impoverished. In the U.S. factories have been shut down, thousands of jobs lost, outsourced to low-paid non-union labor in countries like Mexico, leaving ghost towns in many states. The Mexican government estimates that between 800,000 and 2.5 million children work instead of attending school. Serious health and safety violations are common in the workplace and sinister environmental dangers pervade the communities surrounding the factories. U.S. corporations collude with local managers. Wall Street bankers and corporate bosses accumulate huge profits as they privatize large swaths of valuable property in underdeveloped countries. Kerry’s cabal Kerry has surrounded himself with a cabal of these bankers and big-business advisors. He has selected as his running mate Sen. John Edwards from North Carolina, where workers, particularly in the textile industries, have suffered under NAFTA. North Carolina is a "right to work" state–that is, a scab state. Laws that exist there and in 20 other states have decimated every gain made by labor, includ ing the right to organize unions. The Kerry/Edwards slate is an insult to the 13 million organized workers, as well as millions more who yearn to be in unions. Kerry supports a miserly raise in the minimum wage from $5.15 to $7 over two years that will keep most low-paid workers and their families in poverty. He was responsible for the defeat of an extension of unemployment insurance, which lost by one vote, by not showing up. Kerry supports the Clinton workfare program, which has created an underclass of workers and eliminated good-paying union jobs, depriving oppressed workers- including many women of color and single mothers–of daycare, decent housing and educational opportunities. Kerry has no plans for a massive jobs creation program to alleviate the conditions of millions of unemployed workers. He has supported the massive raids by the Immigration and Naturalization Service–now part of the so-called Department of Homeland Security–on the undocumented. And he has not spoken out against the repressive Patriot Act nor supported same-sex marriage. How can AFL-CIO President John Sweeney, with his line of "anybody but Bush," ignore all this? The AFL-CIO is racked with problems and internal tensions. Its leadership needs to support, not attack, an independent class-struggle movement that along with the oppressed nationalities will forge the unity that is so necessary and timely. It is a dangerous oversight … read more »
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Million Worker March shows labor on the move
Sorry, I’ll be busy moving that day.
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Million Worker March shows labor on the move
[snip] Hey my bowels move regularly but I don’t feel it necessary to alert the press. Seriously though somebody’s grip on reality is pretty tenuous judging by the snipped content. IBM Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com – Accounts Starting At $6.95 – http://www.uncensored-news.com <<<<<<< The Worlds Uncensored News Source <<<<<<<<
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gays Attacked At Palestinian Protest http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13433 By Peter Moore May 19, 2004 (London) Members of two British gay rights groups were attacked when they attempted to participate in a demonstration for Palestinian rights. OutRage and Queer Youth Alliance went to the protest march at Trafalgar Square to show their support for people of Palestine. But they also urged the Palestinian Authority to halt the arrest, torture and murder of homosexuals. As soon as they arrived at the square to members of the two groups were surrounded by an angry, screaming mob of Islamic fundamentalists, Anglican clergymen, members of the Socialist Workers Party, the Stop the War Coalition, and officials from the protest organizers, the Palestine Solidarity Campaign (PSC). They variously attacked the gay activists as "racists", "Zionists", "CIA and MI5 agents", "supporters of the Sharon government" and accused the gays of "dividing the Free Palestine movement".
The ignorant queer lefties have yet to figure out that their real enemy is Islamofascism – not Israel, George Bush, or America.
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The ignorant queer lefties have yet to figure out that their real enemy is Islamofascism – not Israel, George Bush, or America.
The real enemies of the country are the hoople-heads like yourself. BTW, I didn’t like the way you cut my grass last week. Your FIRED!!!!
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The ignorant queer lefties have yet to figure out that their real enemy is Islamofascism – not Israel, George Bush, or America. The real enemies of the country are the hoople-heads like yourself.
Correction – the ignorant queer lefties AND Grinder have yet to figure out that their real enemy is Islamofascism – not Israel, George Bush, or America.
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The ignorant queer lefties have yet to figure out that their real enemy is Islamofascism – not Israel, George Bush, or America. The real enemies of the country are the hoople-heads like yourself. Correction – the ignorant queer lefties AND Grinder have yet to figure out that their real enemy is Islamofascism – not Israel, George Bush, or America.
The real enemy of the citizens of this country is the Talibush and its knee-jerk-conservative lackies, of which Stan de SD is a charter member.
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CW wrote: >>>Only the person who became the equivalent of "state’s evidence" has been >>>offered such a sweet deal. >>Not this one. He was beaten during training and was discharged as a >>result of that. >>Not only didn’t he commit any crimes; he never had a chance to. >>K. > Are you referring to Sivits or to someone else?
Someone else: http://tinyurl.com/2pu28
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In <news:Ex7tc.55370$cz5.21155328@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>, CW said: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Kath" <sendme.nos…@hotpop.com> wrote in message > news:40b4e793$1_3@newspeer2.tds.net… >> CW wrote: >>>>> *Former soldier says he was beaten as part of training at >>>>> Guantanamo* http://tinyurl.com/2pu28 >>>>> While I don’t disagree with the rather minor punishment most of >>>>> these people face [a year in prison, dishonorable discharge], the >>>>> blame is with the people who created the system that allowed for >>>>> these behaviors. >>> Only the person who became the equivalent of "state’s evidence" has >>> been offered such a sweet deal. >> Not this one. He was beaten during training and was discharged as a >> result of that. >> Not only didn’t he commit any crimes; he never had a chance to. >> K. > Are you referring to Sivits or to someone else? > CW
She’s referring to Sean Baker, the former soldier in the link she gave you. http://tinyurl.com/2pu28 He’s not being investigated for having committed any crime… he’s a victim of and material witness to the fact that the atmosphere in which such crimes were committed was a pervasive one. ((U)) M
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"Kath" <sendme.nos…@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:40b508ae$1_2@newspeer2.tds.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> CW wrote: > >>>Only the person who became the equivalent of "state’s evidence" has been > >>>offered such a sweet deal. > >>Not this one. He was beaten during training and was discharged as a > >>result of that. > >>Not only didn’t he commit any crimes; he never had a chance to. > >>K. > > Are you referring to Sivits or to someone else? > Someone else: http://tinyurl.com/2pu28
Kath, You implied that the person involved was prosecuted. This person was not involved in any Abu Ghraib allegation. CW
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CW wrote: > Kath, > You implied that the person involved was prosecuted. This person was not > involved in any Abu Ghraib allegation.
I can’t find any place where I implied that, but if you have something like that, let me know. I’m not aware of any prosecution of this man because he was a victim, and committed no crime. I did, however, say this: "Finally, soldiers were specifically trained to violate the Conventions. http://tinyurl.com/2pu28" K.
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In <news:c932sh$5vl$1@news.netins.net>, hantayo said: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Michael" <muirh…@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message > news:2hkg3kFdaphoU1@uni-berlin.de… >> In <news:Ex7tc.55370$cz5.21155328@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>, >> CW said: >>> "Kath" <sendme.nos…@hotpop.com> wrote in message >>> news:40b4e793$1_3@newspeer2.tds.net… >>>> CW wrote: >>>>>>> *Former soldier says he was beaten as part of training at >>>>>>> Guantanamo* http://tinyurl.com/2pu28 >>>>>>> While I don’t disagree with the rather minor punishment most of >>>>>>> these people face [a year in prison, dishonorable discharge], >>>>>>> the blame is with the people who created the system that >>>>>>> allowed for these behaviors. >>>>> Only the person who became the equivalent of "state’s evidence" >>>>> has been offered such a sweet deal. >>>> Not this one. He was beaten during training and was discharged as a >>>> result of that. >>>> Not only didn’t he commit any crimes; he never had a chance to. >>>> K. >>> Are you referring to Sivits or to someone else? >>> CW >> She’s referring to Sean Baker, the former soldier in the link she >> gave you. >> http://tinyurl.com/2pu28 >> He’s not being investigated for having committed any crime… he’s a >> victim of and material witness to the fact that the atmosphere in >> which such crimes were committed was a pervasive one. >> ((U)) >> M > Good God – what a bunch of assholes! That poor guy….:-( > Kathy K.
Try reading through a more thorough article. :-( http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/nation/8764553.htm ((U)) M
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"Michael" <muirh…@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:2hkg3kFdaphoU1@uni-berlin.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In <news:Ex7tc.55370$cz5.21155328@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>, > CW said: > > "Kath" <sendme.nos…@hotpop.com> wrote in message > > news:40b4e793$1_3@newspeer2.tds.net… > >> CW wrote: > >>>>> *Former soldier says he was beaten as part of training at > >>>>> Guantanamo* http://tinyurl.com/2pu28 > >>>>> While I don’t disagree with the rather minor punishment most of > >>>>> these people face [a year in prison, dishonorable discharge], the > >>>>> blame is with the people who created the system that allowed for > >>>>> these behaviors. > >>> Only the person who became the equivalent of "state’s evidence" has > >>> been offered such a sweet deal. > >> Not this one. He was beaten during training and was discharged as a > >> result of that. > >> Not only didn’t he commit any crimes; he never had a chance to. > >> K. > > Are you referring to Sivits or to someone else? > > CW > She’s referring to Sean Baker, the former soldier in the link she gave you. > http://tinyurl.com/2pu28 > He’s not being investigated for having committed any crime… he’s a victim > of and material witness to the fact that the atmosphere in which such crimes > were committed was a pervasive one. > ((U)) > M
Good God – what a bunch of assholes! That poor guy….:-( Kathy K.
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In <news:2hipd1FdeuuqU1@uni-berlin.de>, Michael said: > True, but irrelevant. > http://wvgazette.com/section/Editorials/200405218
Sorry, Rob… that paper’s gone subscription. There’s a copy of the same article at: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=523992 ((U)) M
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"Kath" <sendme.nos…@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:40b4e793$1_3@newspeer2.tds.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> CW wrote: > >>>*Former soldier says he was beaten as part of training at Guantanamo* > >>>http://tinyurl.com/2pu28 > >>>While I don’t disagree with the rather minor punishment most of > >>>these people face [a year in prison, dishonorable discharge], the > >>>blame is with the people who created the system that allowed for > >>>these behaviors. > > Only the person who became the equivalent of "state’s evidence" has been > > offered such a sweet deal. > Not this one. He was beaten during training and was discharged as a > result of that. > Not only didn’t he commit any crimes; he never had a chance to. > K.
Are you referring to Sivits or to someone else? CW
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CW wrote: >>>*Former soldier says he was beaten as part of training at Guantanamo* >>>http://tinyurl.com/2pu28 >>>While I don’t disagree with the rather minor punishment most of >>>these people face [a year in prison, dishonorable discharge], the >>>blame is with the people who created the system that allowed for >>>these behaviors. > Only the person who became the equivalent of "state’s evidence" has been > offered such a sweet deal.
Not this one. He was beaten during training and was discharged as a result of that. Not only didn’t he commit any crimes; he never had a chance to. K.
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"Rob Duncan" <robdun…@gbronline.com> wrote in message
news:_o-dnQVtcth6vSndRVn-jw@gbronline.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Kath" <sendme.nos…@hotpop.com> wrote in message > news:40b36a49$1_1@newspeer2.tds.net… > > John Husvar wrote: > > > I’m in no way likely ever to be accused of being a capital "L" Liberal > > > — maybe a small "l" libertarian. (when I’m not just being a libertine) > > I agree with much of what you said, but consider that soldiers are > > apparently TRAINED to do some of what these soldiers did … and > > from many accounts, were NOT trained in the requirements of the > > Geneva Conventions or even the military’s own code of conduct. > Your ignorance is astounding, but it pales in comparison in your eagerness > to display it. Soldiers are trained in the Geneva convention as well as the > UCMJ. Get over your own delusion already. > > While > > there’s not much excuse for being inhumane, it’s not so unreasonable > > for a soldier to believe that s/he was doing what they were supposed > > to do when [1] they were trained to do just that, [2] they weren’t > > trained to know that they shouldn’t, and [3] war is, by definition, > > inhumane. Note: > > *Former soldier says he was beaten as part of training at Guantanamo* > > http://tinyurl.com/2pu28 > > While I don’t disagree with the rather minor punishment most of > > these people face [a year in prison, dishonorable discharge], the > > blame is with the people who created the system that allowed for > > these behaviors. > > KKT
Only the person who became the equivalent of "state’s evidence" has been offered such a sweet deal. CW
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"Michael" <muirh…@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:2hipq1Fcsc0qU1@uni-berlin.de… > In <news:2hipd1FdeuuqU1@uni-berlin.de>, > Michael said: > > True, but irrelevant. > > http://wvgazette.com/section/Editorials/200405218 > Sorry, Rob… that paper’s gone subscription. > There’s a copy of the same article at: > http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=523992 > ((U)) > M
No wonder they sent him back to the states. Cant handle the horrors of war. (not that many can) Rob (been there myself in a way)
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In <news:YtidnR4ZQLKVpindRVn-jw@gbronline.com>, Rob Duncan said: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Michael" <muirh…@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message > news:2hipq1Fcsc0qU1@uni-berlin.de… >> In <news:2hipd1FdeuuqU1@uni-berlin.de>, >> Michael said: >>> True, but irrelevant. >>> http://wvgazette.com/section/Editorials/200405218 >> Sorry, Rob… that paper’s gone subscription. >> There’s a copy of the same article at: >> http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=523992 >> ((U)) >> M > No wonder they sent him back to the states. Cant handle the horrors > of war. (not that many can) > Rob > (been there myself in a way)
I found the original for you, Rob. It’s an interview transcript. ((U)) M http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/9316830p-10241546c.html Text: Atrocities in Iraq: ‘I killed innocent people for our government’ By Paul Rockwell — Special to The Bee Published 2:15 am PDT Sunday, May 16, 2004 "We forget what war is about, what it does to those who wage it and those who suffer from it. Those who hate war the most, I have often found, are veterans who know it." – Chris Hedges, New York Times reporter and author of "War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning" For nearly 12 years, Staff Sgt. Jimmy Massey was a hard-core, some say gung-ho, Marine. For three years he trained fellow Marines in one of the most grueling indoctrination rituals in military life – Marine boot camp. The Iraq war changed Massey. The brutality, the sheer carnage of the U.S. invasion, touched his conscience and transformed him forever. He was honorably discharged with full severance last Dec. 31 and is now back in his hometown, Waynsville, N.C. When I talked with Massey last week, he expressed his remorse at the civilian loss of life in incidents in which he himself was involved. Q: You spent 12 years in the Marines. When were you sent to Iraq? A: I went to Kuwait around Jan. 17. I was in Iraq from the get-go. And I was involved in the initial invasion. Q: What does the public need to know about your experiences as a Marine? A: The cause of the Iraqi revolt against the American occupation. What they need to know is we killed a lot of innocent people. I think at first the Iraqis had the understanding that casualties are a part of war. But over the course of time, the occupation hurt the Iraqis. And I didn’t see any humanitarian support. Q: What experiences turned you against the war and made you leave the Marines? A: I was in charge of a platoon that consists of machine gunners and missile men. Our job was to go into certain areas of the towns and secure the roadways. There was this one particular incident – and there’s many more – the one that really pushed me over the edge. It involved a car with Iraqi civilians. From all the intelligence reports we were getting, the cars were loaded down with suicide bombs or material. That’s the rhetoric we received from intelligence. They came upon our checkpoint. We fired some warning shots. They didn’t slow down. So we lit them up. Q: Lit up? You mean you fired machine guns? A: Right. Every car that we lit up we were expecting ammunition to go off. But we never heard any. Well, this particular vehicle we didn’t destroy completely, and one gentleman looked up at me and said: "Why did you kill my brother? We didn’t do anything wrong." That hit me like a ton of bricks. Q: He spoke English? A: Oh, yeah. Q: Baghdad was being bombed. The civilians were trying to get out, right? A: Yes. They received pamphlets, propaganda we dropped on them. It said, "Just throw up your hands, lay down weapons." That’s what they were doing, but we were still lighting them up. They weren’t in uniform. We never found any weapons. Q: You got to see the bodies and casualties? A: Yeah, firsthand. I helped throw them in a ditch. Q: Over what period did all this take place? A: During the invasion of Baghdad. ‘We lit him up pretty good’ Q: How many times were you involved in checkpoint "light-ups"? A: Five times. There was [the city of] Rekha. The gentleman was driving a stolen work utility van. He didn’t stop. With us being trigger happy, we didn’t really give this guy much of a chance. We lit him up pretty good. Then we inspected the back of the van. We found nothing. No explosives. Q: The reports said the cars were loaded with explosives. In all the incidents did you find that to be the case? A: Never. Not once. There were no secondary explosions. As a matter of fact, we lit up a rally after we heard a stray gunshot. Q: A demonstration? Where? A: On the outskirts of Baghdad. Near a military compound. There were demonstrators at the end of the street. They were young and they had no weapons. And when we rolled onto the scene, there was already a tank that was parked on the side of the road. If the Iraqis wanted to do something, they could have blown up the tank. But they didn’t. They were only holding a demonstration. Down at the end of the road, we saw some RPGs (rocket-propelled grenades) lined up against the wall. That put us at ease because we thought: "Wow, if they were going to blow us up, they would have done it." Q: Were the protest signs in English or Arabic? A: Both. Q: Who gave the order to wipe the demonstrators out? A: Higher command. We were told to be on the lookout for the civilians because a lot of the Fedayeen and the Republican Guards had tossed away uniforms and put on civilian clothes and were mounting terrorist attacks on American soldiers. The intelligence reports that were given to us were basically known by every member of the chain of command. The rank structure that was implemented in Iraq by the chain of command was evident to every Marine in Iraq. The order to shoot the demonstrators, I believe, came from senior government officials, including intelligence communities within the military and the U.S. government. Q: What kind of firepower was employed? A: M-16s, 50-cal. machine guns. Q: You fired into six or ten kids? Were they all taken out? A: Oh, yeah. Well, I had a "mercy" on one guy. When we rolled up, he was hiding behind a concrete pillar. I saw him and raised my weapon up, and he put up his hands. He ran off. I told everybody, "Don’t shoot." Half of his foot was trailing behind him. So he was running with half of his foot cut off. Q: After you lit up the demonstration, how long before the next incident? A: Probably about one or two hours. This is another thing, too. I am so glad I am talking with you, because I suppressed all of this. Q: Well, I appreciate you giving me the information, as hard as it must be to recall the painful details. A: That’s all right. It’s kind of therapy for me. Because it’s something that I had repressed for a long time. Q: And the incident? A: There was an incident with one of the cars. We shot an individual with his hands up. He got out of the car. He was badly shot. We lit him up. I don’t know who started shooting first. One of the Marines came running over to where we were and said: "You all just shot a guy with his hands up." Man, I forgot about this. Depleted uranium and cluster bombs Q: You mention machine guns. What can you tell me about cluster bombs, or depleted uranium? A: Depleted uranium. I know what it does. It’s basically like leaving plutonium rods around. I’m 32 years old. I have 80 percent of my lung capacity. I ache all the time. I don’t feel like a healthy 32-year-old. Q: Were you in the vicinity of of depleted uranium? A: Oh, yeah. It’s everywhere. DU is everywhere on the battlefield. If you hit a tank, there’s dust. Q: Did you breath any dust? A: Yeah. Q: And if DU is affecting you or our troops, it’s impacting Iraqi civilians. A: Oh, yeah. They got a big wasteland problem. Q: Do Marines have any precautions about dealing with DU? A: Not that I know of. Well, if a tank gets hit, crews are detained for a little while to make sure there are no signs or symptoms. American tanks have depleted uranium on the sides, and the projectiles have DU in them. If an enemy vehicle gets hit, the area gets contaminated. Dead rounds are in the ground. The civilian populace is just now starting to learn about it. Hell, I didn’t even know about DU until two years ago. You know how I found out about it? I read an article in Rolling Stone magazine. I just started inquiring about it, and I said "Holy s—!" Q: Cluster bombs are also controversial. U.N. commissions have called for a ban. Were you acquainted with cluster bombs? A: I had one of my Marines in my battalion who lost his leg from an ICBM. Q: What’s an ICBM? A: A multi-purpose cluster bomb. Q: What happened? A: He stepped on it. We didn’t get to training about clusters until about a month before I left. Q: What kind of training? A: They told us what they looked like, and not to step on them. Q: Were you in any areas where they were dropped? A: Oh, yeah. They were everywhere. Q: Dropped from the air? A: From the air as well as artillery. Q: Are they dropped far away from cities, or inside the cities? A: They are used everywhere. Now if you talked to a Marine artillery officer, he would give you the runaround, the politically correct answer. But for an average grunt, they’re everywhere. Q: Including inside the towns and cities? A: Yes, if you were going into a city, you knew there were going to be ICBMs. Q: Cluster bombs are anti-personnel weapons. They are not precise. They don’t injure buildings, or hurt tanks. Only people and living things. There are a lot of undetonated duds and they go off after the battles are over. A: Once the round leaves the tube, the cluster bomb has a mind of its own. There’s always human error. I’m going to tell you: The armed forces are in a tight spot over there. It’s starting to leak out about the civilian casualties that are taking place. The Iraqis know. I keep hearing reports from my Marine buddies inside that there were 200-something civilians killed in Fallujah. The military … read more »
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"Michael" <muirh…@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:2hipd1FdeuuqU1@uni-berlin.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In <news:r8GdnTilNvvYsCndRVn-hA@gbronline.com>, > Rob Duncan said: > > "Michael" <muirh…@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message > > news:2himqiFd6t5jU1@uni-berlin.de… > >> In <news:_o-dnQVtcth6vSndRVn-jw@gbronline.com>, > >> Rob Duncan said: > >>> "Kath" <sendme.nos…@hotpop.com> wrote in message > >>> news:40b36a49$1_1@newspeer2.tds.net… > >>>> John Husvar wrote: > >>>>> I’m in no way likely ever to be accused of being a capital "L" > >>>>> Liberal — maybe a small "l" libertarian. (when I’m not just being > >>>>> a libertine) > >>>> I agree with much of what you said, but consider that soldiers are > >>>> apparently TRAINED to do some of what these soldiers did … and > >>>> from many accounts, were NOT trained in the requirements of the > >>>> Geneva Conventions or even the military’s own code of conduct. > >>> Your ignorance is astounding, but it pales in comparison in your > >>> eagerness to display it. Soldiers are trained in the Geneva > >>> convention as well as the UCMJ. > >> You have to wonder about how strictly that requirem,ent is being > >> followed, > > No. You dont. I have MORE than just a passing familiarity with our > > military. These things are taught. Theres no excuse for anyone to > > fall back on, other than to say all involved were fucking pieces of > > shit who need to go to prison. I can just imagine what their fellow > > soldiers would like to do to them. > I bet some of them would like to get creatively sadistic on their asses and > show them what it’s like to be on the other end… > But I can assure you there are also a lot who’d like to buy them a drink. > >> when the general in charge of the investigation says that the > >> soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison were operating under "failure of > >> leadership, lack of discipline, no training whatsoever and no > >> supervision." > >> ((U)) > >> M > > Theres no excuse. What they did was outside of military protocols. > > Rob > True, but irrelevant. > http://wvgazette.com/section/Editorials/200405218 > ((U)) > M
Somethings up with my computer. I cant download this page either. Grrr…. Rob
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Rob Duncan wrote: >>Unfortunately, you are incorrect. A number of soldiers are >>reporting that they had NOT been trained in the Geneva Conventions. >>Now, they may be lying, but we don’t know that. So far, it’s >>uncontroverted. > Unfortunately, you are incorrect. I know for a fact that they were taught > the Geneva Convention, as well as the UCMJ. Theres no arguing the poing. > After what youve seen these idiots behavior is like… you then think lying > is beneath them? Get a grip. These are dirtbags doing everything they can > to avoid proper punishment. These were scum. Its not uncontroverted. They > went through bootcamp. They know the rules just fine. Ask any soldier.
There’s no way that you could know, Rob, unless you were there when each and every one of those people was trained, and I’m 99.99% certain that you were not. I have no doubt about what the rules are, but equally, I have no doubt that this administration is prone to bending the rules. For instance, Rumsfeld and others have said categorically that the Geneva Conventions apply to all prisoners in Iraq. However, a memo signed by General Karpinski has surfaced which says specifically that some prisoners of "significant intelligence value" could be isolated and treated differently than prisoners of war or ordinary criminals. Further, this administration has spoken with disdain of the Conventions [Rumsfeld] and called them "quaint" and "obsolete" ["In my judgment, this new paradigm renders obsolete Geneva's strict limitations on questioning of enemy prisoners and renders quaint some of its provisions" requiring access to the commissary and other privileges." Alberto Gonzales] Finally, soldiers were specifically trained to violate the Conventions. http://tinyurl.com/2pu28 Given that atmosphere, there’s a great probability that those soldiers, no matter how despicable their behaviors, were telling the truth. After all, they told the truth about what they did. KKT
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Michael wrote: >>>I agree with much of what you said, but consider that soldiers are >>>apparently TRAINED to do some of what these soldiers did … and >>>from many accounts, were NOT trained in the requirements of the >>>Geneva Conventions or even the military’s own code of conduct. >>Your ignorance is astounding, but it pales in comparison in your >>eagerness to display it. Soldiers are trained in the Geneva >>convention as well as the UCMJ. > You have to wonder about how strictly that requirem,ent is being followed, > when the general in charge of the investigation says that the soldiers at > Abu Ghraib prison were operating under "failure of leadership, lack of > discipline, no training whatsoever and no supervision." > ((U)) > M
There have been soldiers interviewed on American TV [I saw them] who said that they had not received such training. Those people were NOT involved in the recent prison abuses, but were dismissed for inappropriate behavior in another matter. Note this report: "In two years with the Reserves, she says, she never heard the words "Geneva Conventions," nor did she receive more than a few days of training on how to guard enemy prisoners of war." [This woman was not involved in misconduct]. http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5039248/site/newsweek/ And this one: ""They didn’t train their troops charged with looking after Iraqi prisoners to uphold these conventions,
Question:
JOIN THE SPRING & SUMMER OF PROTEST & RESISTANCE!
Robert Lederman (AKA Freedom Fighter), when he is not in jail, loves to spit on our American soldiers at every chance that he can get.
Response:
JOIN THE SPRING & SUMMER OF PROTEST & RESISTANCE! The A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition’s rapid response analysis and announcement of plans for a Spring and Summer of
<snip Hopefully, these’ll be more successful than last weekend’s protests. Maybe if cake and punch was offered… Phil visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website: http://www.homebrewersguild.org
Response:
JOIN THE SPRING & SUMMER OF PROTEST & RESISTANCE! The A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition’s rapid response analysis and announcement of plans for a Spring and Summer of <snip Hopefully, these’ll be more successful than last weekend’s protests. Maybe if cake and punch was offered…
ELEVEN HUNDRED KILLED AND WOUNDED LAST MONTH! Rummsey said he is clueless. Bush doesn’t have an answer. — http://www.bushflash.com/thanks.html "Bubba got a blowjob, BU$H screwed us all!" – Slim http://www.worldmessenger.20m.com/weapons.html#wms George "The AWOL President" Bush: http://www.awolbush.com/ WHY IRAQ?: http://www.angelfire.com/creep/gwbush/remindus.html http://www.toostupidtobepresident.com/shockwave/chickenhawks.htm VOTE HIM OUT! November 4, 2004
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – JOIN THE SPRING & SUMMER OF PROTEST & RESISTANCE! The A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition’s rapid response analysis and announcement of plans for a Spring and Summer of <snip Hopefully, these’ll be more successful than last weekend’s protests. Maybe if cake and punch was offered… ELEVEN HUNDRED KILLED AND WOUNDED LAST MONTH! Rummsey said he is clueless. Bush doesn’t have an answer.
And the answer is… We are not an Occupational Army! Being an occupier implies that there is a gov’t body in place that could take control if only the occupation were to end. That’s the fallacy here that is misleading everyone! In truth, the gov’t collapsed completely after the invasion, and/or the invading force swept away what remained. Thus, in reality what we have here is nothing less than a Military Junta. And what was set up is not an occupational authority, but in fact a provisional government! The distinction is fine but non-the-less very important. Because the new Iraqi government will be one, that is created and imposed by the provisional government, not one that is merely going to be allowed to resume it’s command. This is why we need help, since any attempt by us to create any new form of gov’t, will be seen as a design that Iraqi nationals will eschew. No matter, be it good or bad, just that it has a foreign taint to it, it will be rejectable out of hand as repugnant. In fact, such rejection will be and is an available and important plank in any new platform for domestic policy. So, Bush will be unable to remove such a taint from anything, no matter what he does, certainly not by playing semantics. It is either pass control to a diverse group that can, at the least, win consent and form consensuses with the people, or remain and induce the entire region to spin slowly out of control. Clearly Bush doctrine "U parka my place, I breaka U face," isn’t working Obwon
Response:
JOIN THE SPRING & SUMMER OF PROTEST & RESISTANCE! The A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition’s rapid response analysis and announcement of plans for a Spring and Summer of Resistance to George W. Bush’s war mongering defense of the occupation in Iraq on prime time television on Tuesday, April 13 has attracted widespread support from coalitions and organizations around the country. In the email that was sent out immediately after Bush’s speech, we announced plans for major national and nationally-coordinated actions against the occupation of Iraq taking place over the next five months. Here is the current national action plan. Be sure to check future action alerts for announcements of additional nationally-coordinated activities. -please post widely- APRIL 16-18: Al-Awda, The Palestine Right to Return Coalition’s 2nd National Convention "Sustainable Struggle: The Road to Palestine" will take place in New York City. The A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition is proud to endorse this convention. We urge all to register, endorse, and participate to help secure the Palestinian right to return and self-determination as inextricable anchors of the global justice movement. For more information: www.alawdaconvention.org APRIL 24: March & Rally to free Mumia Abu-Jamal in Philadelphia. Imprisoned journalist Mumia Abu-Jamal has played a central leadership role from his death row cell in the global anti-war movement in the last two years. Mumia – the victim of a police frame-up and widespread prosecutorial and judicial misconduct – has, through his writings and speeches, provided one of the most compelling analysis of the Bush administration’s war drive in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. Mumia has stood with the Iraqi people and all of those in the United States and around the world who have mobilized against Bush’s imperialist war drive. It is essential that the anti-war movement stand in solidarity in the struggle to win his freedom. The activity on April 24, Mumia’s 50th birthday, will take place at 10 am at 52nd and Pine St. in Philadelphia. In addition to promoting the April 24 Philadelphia action, the A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition will be organizing an anti-war contingent in the demonstration. For more information: www.mumia.org, 215-476-8812 or 212-633-6646. APRIL 25: The A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition supports the April 25 mass mobilization in Washington DC to defend women’s rights and reproductive freedom. The Bush administration and the ultra-right are working to overturn the gains the women’s movement has made over the last thirty-five years. Women have the right to control their own bodies and their lives. A.N.S.W.E.R. is organizing an anti-war contingent in the March for Women’s Lives. The main assembly for the demonstration will be on the National Mall (between 3rd and 14th Sts.) at 10 am, with a march beginning at 12 noon. The anti-war contingent will have two meeting locations before assembling on the Mall: (1) 7th St. between Madison Dr. and Constitution Ave. NW and (2) 7th St. between Jefferson Dr. and Independence Ave. SW. You can also meet up with the contingent at our banner in the main assembly area on the Mall on the southeast corner of 7th St. and Madison Dr. NW. *Updated logistical information, including a map, will be available soon at http://www.internationalanswer.org/news/update/041504a25.html MAY 1: Nationally-coordinated demonstrations, rallies, teach-ins, and forums on the anniversary of George W. Bush’s declaration of the end of major combat operations in Iraq. May 1 was the date that George Bush dressed up like a soldier, flew onto the aircraft carrier U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln, and posed for that disgusting photo op where he could claim credit for the conquering of Iraq. Far from having ended major military combat, the war in Iraq only intensified. More U.S. soldiers have been killed or wounded since May 1 than during the invasion phase of the war. Nearly 10,000 soldiers have been evacuated from Iraq for wounds and other injuries. Tens of thousands of Iraqis have been killed, and in the last week the Bush administration executed a bloodbath as a form of collective punishment for the people of Fallujah and elsewhere throughout Iraq. The May 1 anniversary will be marked by nationally-coordinated activities – demonstrations, rallies, teach-ins, and forums – exposing the lies of the Bush administration. To list your May 1 event on the A.N.S.W.E.R. website, fill out the form at http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/m1/event.html . See below for information about another calendar on which you can post your event. JUNE 30: Nationally-coordinated demonstrations on the day of the so-called "turnover of sovereignty" in Iraq. Demonstrate to say NO to fake "Sovereignty" for Iraq and to End the Occupation and Bring the Troops Home Now! To list your June 30 event on the A.N.S.W.E.R. website, fill out the form at http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/j30/event.html . See below for information about another calendar on which you can post your event. JULY 25: Protest the Democratic National Convention in Boston. The July 25 Mass March will kick off a week of protests against the DNC. AUGUST 26: Independent International Tribunal on Iraq – Day-long hearing in New York City on the eve of the Republican National Convention to report on war-crimes charges brought against Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and others for crimes committed in carrying out the war and occupation of Iraq. Ramsey Clark and other legal experts around the world have charged that the Bush administration has committed war crimes and crimes against humanity. These proceedings are aimed to tell the truth and will include reports from committees in countries around the world that held hearings presenting evidence of crimes against Bush and Co. AUGUST 29: Protest the Republican National Convention in New York City. The August 29 Mass March will kick off a week of protests against the RNC. For more information on these and other upcoming events – including how you can get involved – go to www.internationalanswer.org. Please make sure you’re on our alert list – you can join by filling out the form at http://internationalanswer.org/subscribelist.html *POST YOUR ACTIONS ON THE NEW CALENDAR* Please visit the new VoteNoWar National and Local Event Calendar at http://www.VoteNoWar.org/events.htm and post any upcoming rallies, teach-ins, forums and other actions taking place in your area. This calendar is available to help build and strengthen the growing anti-war and social justice movement. It has been designed to support the efforts of grassroots and national event organizers. The calendar has just been added to the VoteNoWar web site, so events are now just about to be posted. For event organizers, now is the time to visit the VoteNoWar National and Local Event Calendar. For event attendees, come back regularly to see the new events that may be of interest to you. A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition Act Now to Stop War & End Racism FOR MORE INFORMATION: www.InternationalANSWER.org New York 212-633-6646 Washington 202-544-3389 Los Angeles 213-487-2368 San Francisco 415-821-6545 Sign up to receive updates (low volume): http://www.internationalanswer.org/subscribelist.html To make a tax-deductible donation, go to http://www.internationalanswer.org/donate.html ANSWER.general mailing list Anyone can subscribe. Send an email request to: Subscribing and unsubscribing can also be done on the Web at http://www.organizerweb.com/mailman/listinfo/answer.general
Response:
Question:
The IDF should consider it a target rich environment! Massive marches in Gaza streets in solidarity with Iraqi people Apr 8, 2004, 19:03 Gaza – Palestinians last night hit the streets of the Gaza district in protest against the American occupation crimes in lines of the brotherly Iraqi people. The Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas, organized a demonstration in the Jabaliya refugee camp north of Gaza city following the night prayers in solidarity with the Iraqi people and in denunciation of Anglo-American occupation crimes. Thousands of citizens took part in the march with Hamas elements walking at the forefront hoisting green banners along with Palestinian and Iraqi flags. Participants chanted anti-American occupation slogans and hailed the Iraqi resistance’s heroism and steadfastness. Hamas organized another march in central Gaza Strip where thousands of inhabitants of the Maghazi refugee camp took part and voiced support to the Iraqi people. They asked the Iraqi resistance fighters to wage more operations against the American-led occupation of their country. Participants urged the Arab and Muslim Ummah to swiftly act in support of the Iraqi people in face of the American brutal massacres. http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/
Response:
IT JUST SHOWS HOW IGNORANT YOU STUPID FUCKING MUSLIMS ARE. YOU ARE A BUNCH OF LOW LIFE SUB HUMAN FREAKS. WE SHOULD JUST NUKE YOU ASININE BASTARDS OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH INSTEAD OF TRYING TO BRING YOU INTO THE 21ST CENTURY. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Massive marches in Gaza streets in solidarity with Iraqi people Apr 8, 2004, 19:03 Gaza – Palestinians last night hit the streets of the Gaza district in protest against the American occupation crimes in lines of the brotherly Iraqi people. The Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas, organized a demonstration in the Jabaliya refugee camp north of Gaza city following the night prayers in solidarity with the Iraqi people and in denunciation of Anglo-American occupation crimes. Thousands of citizens took part in the march with Hamas elements walking at the forefront hoisting green banners along with Palestinian and Iraqi flags. Participants chanted anti-American occupation slogans and hailed the Iraqi resistance’s heroism and steadfastness. Hamas organized another march in central Gaza Strip where thousands of inhabitants of the Maghazi refugee camp took part and voiced support to the Iraqi people. They asked the Iraqi resistance fighters to wage more operations against the American-led occupation of their country. Participants urged the Arab and Muslim Ummah to swiftly act in support of the Iraqi people in face of the American brutal massacres. http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/
Response:
Massive marches in Gaza streets in solidarity with Iraqi people Apr 8, 2004, 19:03 Gaza – Palestinians last night hit the streets of the Gaza district in protest against the American occupation crimes in lines of the brotherly Iraqi people. The Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas, organized a demonstration in the Jabaliya refugee camp north of Gaza city following the night prayers in solidarity with the Iraqi people and in denunciation of Anglo-American occupation crimes. Thousands of citizens took part in the march with Hamas elements walking at the forefront hoisting green banners along with Palestinian and Iraqi flags. Participants chanted anti-American occupation slogans and hailed the Iraqi resistance’s heroism and steadfastness. Hamas organized another march in central Gaza Strip where thousands of inhabitants of the Maghazi refugee camp took part and voiced support to the Iraqi people. They asked the Iraqi resistance fighters to wage more operations against the American-led occupation of their country. Participants urged the Arab and Muslim Ummah to swiftly act in support of the Iraqi people in face of the American brutal massacres. http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/
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Question:
You traitors could only get 200 "demonstators" to show up in DC. ZERO in Chicago. It looks like America has had it with you fuckers. Those drops you are feeling on your heads isn’t rain — it’s AMERICA pissing on you motherfucking traitors!
Didn’t Charles Fry write a poem like that? "What If There Was a Protest and Nobody Came?" visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website: http://www.homebrewersguild.org
Response:
50+ U.S. CITIES HOLDING EMERGENCY IRAQ PROTESTS & new cities are announcing their plans by the hour! The Iraqi people are uniting in widespread opposition to the occupation of their country and the U.S. government is attempting to crush this revolt with overwhelming violence. The Iraqi city of Fallujah is under siege. According to the director of the city’s hospital, at least 280 Iraqi people have been killed since Sunday in Fallujah alone – and at least 460 have been killed throughout the country. The number of injured in Fallujah has surpassed 400, and hospitals report that there are many more people who are dead or wounded but who are unreachable because of the fighting. U.S. helicopters and snipers have been firing on ambulances and civilian vehicles trying to bring the wounded to hospitals. The Iraqi people want the U.S. occupation to end and the U.S. troops and their families increasingly demand that the U.S. leave Iraq. More than 40 U.S. soldiers have been killed since Sunday, and now Pentagon and White House officials are saying they may increase the number of troops in Iraq as well as prevent the troops that are scheduled to return from leaving. The time to act is now! More than 50 U.S. cities have answered the call put out by the A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition to hold nationally-coordinated emergency demonstrations between Friday, April 9 and Monday, April 12 to demand U.S. OUT OF IRAQ, Bring the Troops Home Now and Money for jobs, education and healthcare – Not for wars of aggression. New cities are announcing their plans by the hour. Demonstrations are also taking place around the world. See below for details on how you can join these important demonstrations. * * * * * UNITED PRESS INTERNATIONAL: Nationwide protests against Iraq war WASHINGTON, April 8 (UPI) — Opponents of the war in Iraq are gathering in cities across the United States over the Easter weekend in response to a call to action to protest the war. The anti-war ANSWER Coalition has issued a call for "emergency local demonstrations" nationwide to protest the war in Iraq, call for the return of U.S. troops from Iraq, and a call for money for healthcare and education, not the war. ANSWER is an acronym for "Act Now to Stop War and Racism." As of Thursday demonstrations were planned for Friday through Monday in 17 towns and cities [now more than 50], including New York, Chicago, Los Angeles and Washington at the White House. "The revolt sweeping Iraq in opposition to foreign occupation has resulted in the White House and Pentagon ordering a reign of terror against all those who defy U.S. dictates," the organization said in a statement announcing the protests. "Hundreds of Iraqis have been killed. A large number of U.S. troops have also died. And there is no let up in sight. … The current crisis in Iraq is again stimulating protests around the country and around the world," the statement said. * * * * * Cities holding demonstrations include: Albuquerque, NM Atlanta, GA Augusta, ME Baltimore, MD Binghamton, NY Birmingham, AL Boston, MA Buffalo, NY Carlsbad, CA Cedar Falls, IA Charlotte, NC Chicago, IL Detroit, MI Fayetteville, AR Ferndale, MI Gettysburg, PA Grand Rapids, MI Kingston, NY Long Island, NY Los Angeles, CA Massachusetts, MA Middletown, NY Mill Valley, CA Minneapolis, MN Mountain View, CA New Haven, CT New York, NY Portland, OR Providence, RI San Diego, CA San Francisco, CA San Jose, CA Sarasota Springs, NY Seattle, WA Springfield, MA St. Petersburg, FL Washington, DC & more! For details of the demonstrations taking place across the country, go to http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/a10/a10events.html (this page includes downloadable flyers and is updated frequently) If your city is not yet listed, fill out the easy-to-use form at http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/a10/event.html If you are holding a local demonstration, a downloadable flyer is available that you can adapt (this flyer includes an empty box where you can paste in your local details, and space at the bottom for your local contact information): http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/a10/a10flyer.pdf Read the Call to Action: IRAQ AT THE BOILING POINT http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/a10/index.html * * * * * NEW YORK CITY Friday, April 9 4:30 pm Times Square 212-633-6646 Flyer: http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/a10/a10nyc.pdf WASHINGTON DC Saturday, April 10 12 noon White House (Lafayette Park) 202-544-3389 Flyer: http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/a10/a10dcflyer.pdf LOS ANGELES Friday, April 9 5 pm Westwood Federal Building (Wilshire & Veteran) 213-487-2368 Flyer: http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/a10/a9la.pdf SAN FRANCISCO Saturday, April 10 12 noon UN Plaza (Market St. between 7th St. and Hyde. Civic Center BART) 415-821-6545 Flyer: http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/a10/a10sf.pdf Details for additional cities can be found at http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/a10/a10events.html (this page is updated frequently) A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition Act Now to Stop War & End Racism FOR MORE INFORMATION: www.InternationalANSWER.org New York 212-633-6646 Washington 202-544-3389 Los Angeles 213-487-2368 San Francisco 415-821-6545 Sign up to receive updates (low volume): http://www.internationalanswer.org/subscribelist.html To make a tax-deductible donation, go to http://www.internationalanswer.org/donate.html ANSWER.general mailing list Anyone can subscribe. Send an email request to: Subscribing and unsubscribing can also be done on the Web at http://www.organizerweb.com/mailman/listinfo/answer.general
Response:
It looks as though our old crzy idiot Robert Lederman (AKA Freedom Fighter) is still showing people just how much he hates America, and its soldiers. Of course with Robert Lederman’s long criminal record he could never be a part of the American military. And of course the American military would toss a scumbag like Lederman out on his ass if he ever tried to join up anyway. So Robert Lederman is content with spitting on our American soldiers at every chance he gets. Robert Lederman is mad at the whole world because he feels that the world has not treated hin the right way. We all used to get the greatest laughs watching the New York City Police drag Robert Lederman off to the paddy wagon as he was kicking and screaming just like a little girl all of the way there.
Response:
50+ U.S. CITIES HOLDING EMERGENCY IRAQ PROTESTS
<SNIP MORON’S LIBERAL PROPAGANDA Robert Lederman wants to pose for a picture while sitting on top of a Taliban anti-aircraft gun while it is pointed at American fighter jets. Robert Lederman is a true piece of garbage.
Response:
You traitors could only get 200 "demonstators" to show up in DC. ZERO in Chicago. It looks like America has had it with you fuckers. Those drops you are feeling on your heads isn’t rain — it’s AMERICA pissing on you motherfucking traitors!
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 50+ U.S. CITIES HOLDING EMERGENCY IRAQ PROTESTS & new cities are announcing their plans by the hour! The Iraqi people are uniting in widespread opposition to the occupation of their country and the U.S. government is attempting to crush this revolt with overwhelming violence. The Iraqi city of Fallujah is under siege. According to the director of the city’s hospital, at least 280 Iraqi people have been killed since Sunday in Fallujah alone – and at least 460 have been killed throughout the country. The number of injured in Fallujah has surpassed 400, and hospitals report that there are many more people who are dead or wounded but who are unreachable because of the fighting. U.S. helicopters and snipers have been firing on ambulances and civilian vehicles trying to bring the wounded to hospitals. The Iraqi people want the U.S. occupation to end and the U.S. troops and their families increasingly demand that the U.S. leave Iraq. More than 40 U.S. soldiers have been killed since Sunday, and now Pentagon and White House officials are saying they may increase the number of troops in Iraq as well as prevent the troops that are scheduled to return from leaving. The time to act is now! More than 50 U.S. cities have answered the call put out by the A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition to hold nationally-coordinated emergency demonstrations between Friday, April 9 and Monday, April 12 to demand U.S. OUT OF IRAQ, Bring the Troops Home Now and Money for jobs, education and healthcare – Not for wars of aggression. New cities are announcing their plans by the hour. Demonstrations are also taking place around the world. See below for details on how you can join these important demonstrations. * * * * * UNITED PRESS INTERNATIONAL: Nationwide protests against Iraq war WASHINGTON, April 8 (UPI) — Opponents of the war in Iraq are gathering in cities across the United States over the Easter weekend in response to a call to action to protest the war. The anti-war ANSWER Coalition has issued a call for "emergency local demonstrations" nationwide to protest the war in Iraq, call for the return of U.S. troops from Iraq, and a call for money for healthcare and education, not the war. ANSWER is an acronym for "Act Now to Stop War and Racism." As of Thursday demonstrations were planned for Friday through Monday in 17 towns and cities [now more than 50], including New York, Chicago, Los Angeles and Washington at the White House. "The revolt sweeping Iraq in opposition to foreign occupation has resulted in the White House and Pentagon ordering a reign of terror against all those who defy U.S. dictates," the organization said in a statement announcing the protests. "Hundreds of Iraqis have been killed. A large number of U.S. troops have also died. And there is no let up in sight. … The current crisis in Iraq is again stimulating protests around the country and around the world," the statement said. * * * * * Cities holding demonstrations include: Albuquerque, NM Atlanta, GA Augusta, ME Baltimore, MD Binghamton, NY Birmingham, AL Boston, MA Buffalo, NY Carlsbad, CA Cedar Falls, IA Charlotte, NC Chicago, IL Detroit, MI Fayetteville, AR Ferndale, MI Gettysburg, PA Grand Rapids, MI Kingston, NY Long Island, NY Los Angeles, CA Massachusetts, MA Middletown, NY Mill Valley, CA Minneapolis, MN Mountain View, CA New Haven, CT New York, NY Portland, OR Providence, RI San Diego, CA San Francisco, CA San Jose, CA Sarasota Springs, NY Seattle, WA Springfield, MA St. Petersburg, FL Washington, DC & more! For details of the demonstrations taking place across the country, go to http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/a10/a10events.html (this page includes downloadable flyers and is updated frequently) If your city is not yet listed, fill out the easy-to-use form at http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/a10/event.html If you are holding a local demonstration, a downloadable flyer is available that you can adapt (this flyer includes an empty box where you can paste in your local details, and space at the bottom for your local contact information): http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/a10/a10flyer.pdf Read the Call to Action: IRAQ AT THE BOILING POINT http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/a10/index.html * * * * * NEW YORK CITY Friday, April 9 4:30 pm Times Square 212-633-6646 Flyer: http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/a10/a10nyc.pdf WASHINGTON DC Saturday, April 10 12 noon White House (Lafayette Park) 202-544-3389 Flyer: http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/a10/a10dcflyer.pdf LOS ANGELES Friday, April 9 5 pm Westwood Federal Building (Wilshire & Veteran) 213-487-2368 Flyer: http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/a10/a9la.pdf SAN FRANCISCO Saturday, April 10 12 noon UN Plaza (Market St. between 7th St. and Hyde. Civic Center BART) 415-821-6545 Flyer: http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/a10/a10sf.pdf Details for additional cities can be found at http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/a10/a10events.html (this page is updated frequently) A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition Act Now to Stop War & End Racism FOR MORE INFORMATION: www.InternationalANSWER.org New York 212-633-6646 Washington 202-544-3389 Los Angeles 213-487-2368 San Francisco 415-821-6545 Sign up to receive updates (low volume): http://www.internationalanswer.org/subscribelist.html To make a tax-deductible donation, go to http://www.internationalanswer.org/donate.html ANSWER.general mailing list Anyone can subscribe. Send an email request to: Subscribing and unsubscribing can also be done on the Web at http://www.organizerweb.com/mailman/listinfo/answer.general
Response:
Question:
even just traveling through the Saints’ Empire is enough to get a bellyful of ‘christian antagonism’. HOw so? I’ve never been approached as I entrered the hallowed halls of Squatters…
All of the fabled Mormon honesty and integrity is about how they treat one another, not Gentiles. Whether it’s justified or not, Mormons hate gentiles in general and Christians in particular, so how gentiles feel about them is pretty immaterial in Utah and surrounding. Chas
Response:
The Nazi type Mormon clowns who showed up to harass the protesters (including gay activists), and who stated to apparently-ready-to-collude-police and to me that they would just assume shoot the protestors have been identified. They’ve been identified by the media as Travis Dlobis and Luke Darookie of Ogden, Utah. More info is at: http://www.sltrib.com/2004/apr/04042004/utah/153947.asp and http://snipurl.com/5ilq Copy of message just emailed to Chick-Fil-A: On Saturday the 3rd of April two men (Travis Dlobis and Luke Darookie from Ogden, Utah) obtained or stole several balloons from your Crossroads Mall store. They then went over to an area in Salt Lake on South Temple Street in between the Mormon Conference Center & the Mormon Temple Square. While there here is what they did: 1.) They represented themselves as being from Chick-fil-A and passed out Chick-fil-A balloons; 2.) they asked a Salt Lake City Police Officer if they could shoot the street protesters present – the police officer chuckled at the prospect and said "that would create some media attention;" 3.) I asked the men directly myself who they represented & they said "Chick-fil-A, 4.) I then asked the men if they wanted to shoot the protestors, and they said "yes." I was a first hand witness to these events. I have reported these events to the Salt Lake City Mayor & to the ACLU of Utah. I suggest you take action on your own, unless you would like men dressed in clown suits going around downtown Salt Lake claiming they are from your company & stating to the police & to others such as myself that they would be very interested in having the street protestors present during the Mormon General Conferences shot.
Response:
even just traveling through the Saints’ Empire is enough to get a bellyful of ‘christian antagonism’. HOw so? I’ve never been approached as I entrered the hallowed halls of Squatters… All of the fabled Mormon honesty and integrity is about how they treat one another, not Gentiles. Whether it’s justified or not, Mormons hate gentiles in general and Christians in particular, so how gentiles feel about them is pretty immaterial in Utah and surrounding.
The mormons I know don’t hate me. In SLC, I’ve never encountered anything to note. The most annoying behavior I ever encountered was that of converts to the faith in the midwest beating their testimonies in my presence with a bullwhip. I told them to stop and they did. The pentacostals and babtists are worse, AND kkkalvinists on arm beat them all by far! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Chas
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Here is my report of observations I made on Saturday during a two hour visit to the protest area between the Mormon Conference Center & Temple Square from 11:30AM to 1:30PM. Essentially, you went around trying to pick a fight and couldn’t get arrested, right?
No. You went to the holiest place in Mormon territory; joined a religious contention already in progress, challenged a vendor in public to defend his product- not so you’d buy it, but just to waste his time?
No. And you’re grumpy because people frowned at you?
Not applicable. He also stated that there was archeological evidence for that non-indians had come & that they had clearly interbred with indians (Egyptians & others), Yup; good information coming out with the translations of the various Ogam writing. I might recommend ‘America B.C.’ by Barry Fell, a paleolinguist specializing in the languages of ’sea-faring’ peoples of Western Europe.
Well, hey, a 1978 book certainly should disprove hundreds of present day hard science DNA studies. Or not. <clip And, an intellectual like you not-remembering the title of his book?
You find it. If I do I’ll post it. <clip
Response:
Your bias is quite obvious. Please tell me. Do Citizens of the United States of America have the right to worship as they please?
Not in all ways. Do they have the right to do so without harrassment, antagonism, and insults.
There is no general right to keep you from being offended by the public speech of others. Do Americans have the right to walk out of their church, having just been married without bullhorns calling them names?
No. How does the right of a precious young Lady to special day, take a back seat to obnoxious harrasment in the name of the first ammendment.
Yes. Why are there not laws protecting people from insulting behavior,
There is unfortunately some such laws relevant to the work place, but there’s more freedom to speak how one wants in public. that is done in a way that intentionally tries to incite a negative reaction?
Welcome to America. When you fish along a BOM on a string hoping someone will grab at it, or wave underwear around like a flag and wipe your ass with it, that is only hoping to get a reaction that will get you on the news and prove how horrible those Mormons are.
Could be. My response to angry Mormons: That’s life. Get over it. This is America. With the right to Freedom of Speech comes the responsibility to use that freedom in a way that does not trample all over other peoples freedom.
There’s a difference between speech in public & speech in a private place. Public speech is protected, whether it offends you or not. Now with regard to the Nazi Mormon’s dressed up as clowns I mentioned, they did not IMO have a right to threaten to shoot anyone, nor to misrepresent themselves as representatives of a restaurant chain. Lastly, how on earth do these street preachers think that their in your face antagonistic behavior will convert anyone. How is this behavior Christian?
To them it is I guess. Truely the preachers are trampling on the rights of Mormons
No they are not. and their actions will only serve to polarize the extreme right wing and get their right to freedom of speech restricted. .
The extreme right wing does wish to quell the speech of non-puritans & that is bad. However in this case I see thier right to speak in public as linked with my future right to speak in public at the same public locations – to speak for my own reasons.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please tell me. Do Citizens of the United States of America have the right to worship as they please? Of course. Do they have the right to do so without harrassment, antagonism, and insults. Harrassment has a very specific definition and requires a specific legal standard to be prosecutable. And no one has a "right" to be free from others’ antagonism as long as it does not rise to the level of harrassment or prevent one from going about one’s business. I.e., one cannot trespass into someone else’s place of worship, but one cannot be prevented from standing on public property with a sign or handful of leaflets. This is the essence of free speech. The LDS church has circumvented this little inconvenience by purchasing public land for its private use and by somehow forcing critics into designated, cordoned "free-speech" zones. Is this a foretaste of what their "Zion" government is going to be like?
Absolutely. Thanks for your comments. "Free speech: Use it and lose it!" Kevin GySgt USMC (retired) United States Marine Corps… When it absolutely, positively, has to be destroyed overnight. That explains a lot. The Neo-cons have taken your motto and applied it very effectively to the U.S. Constitution.
Here here. The fucking Mormon Elders don’t wish to save the US Constitution when it’s hanging by a thread (as I was told they would do in Mormon Institute classes). Mormon Elders would just assume see it quashed just like Mr. Stupid Bush. See how the "Mormon Elders" act to support the Constitution here in Salt Lake: They buy up free speech zones (Main Street), and try & limit the usability of others. "Mormon Elders" aren’t interested in protecting the Constitution, in spite of what the John-Birch type Mormons claim.
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Yup; good information coming out with the translations of the various Ogam writing. I might recommend ‘America B.C.’ by Barry Fell, a paleolinguist specializing in the languages of ’sea-faring’ peoples of Western Europe. Well, hey, a 1978 book certainly should disprove hundreds of present day hard science DNA studies. Or not.
The ‘rosetta stone’ for Ogam wasn’t even found until the mid-70’s. Fell’s book is cutting edge even twenty years later, because they’re still coming up with things to translate and such. Of course, you might want to cite something that you think refutes it. Use the space below: Chas
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Why are there not laws protecting people from insulting behavior, that is done in a way that intentionally tries to incite a negative reaction? Kevin–let’s remember it was the LDS who fought last conference. Why are there not laws along the lines of turn the other cheek? Or is that just so many words?
Remember, it was Kevin who said that he had a load of buckshot waiting for anyone who came into his house and would attempt to steal a can of beans. I certainly do not agree with the approach of many street "preachers", but it is rather humorous to see TBMs revolving and contradictory definintions of free speech.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So here’s my key conclusions and observations about the protests this April: 1. The new protest zones created by the city are unreasonable. They seek to put the protestors into an area where passers by cannot have first hand conversations with them. The only way first hand interaction & speaking can take place between the protesters & the common citizen is if a protestor goes outside the limited unreasonable confining zone and risks arrest. That is unacceptable. Again I don’t support the message of the Bible beaters, but their actions are constitutional whereas IMO the zones are not. Also the protest zone was far too small & confining. The zone was designed to move the protestors away from key areas where they could be seen by conference goers. Thus the zones were designed to ameliorate & degrade the messages of the protestors. Thus the zones as drafted by the City went against the spirit of the First Amendment.
You are right. If the city is going to confine the protestors, they need to provide an adequate area. 2. Vociferous Nazi Mormons showed up in clown suits & in regular clothes there. These Nazi type Mormons advocated having the police present shoot the regular protestors, and at least one policeman chucked at the prospect. Another Nazi type Mormon showed a sign wishing that the Porter Rockwell (again, the henchman/assain of Brigham Young) would show up to kill the protestors.
Seems they were completely in their rights there. I also note that you are not saying they weren’t. I have been disturbed by the over reaction by airline security to a frustrated passenger making some obviously facetious remark about blowing up an airplane. The over reaction went far beyond just a warning. I also note that you don’t seem to think that the statements about killing the protestors or having Porter Rockwell show up was anything but facetious. I think the police were correct in their reaction to you. If the police had reacted to your complaints about the MormoNazis, I would have been equally disturbed. To protect our rights, the MormonNazis need to have theirs protected just as zealously. 3. Regular Bible beating Christians showed up. Some were friendly to talk to. Some were not. 4. Gay activists showed up, but were harassed by the Nazi Mormon fraudulent loud mouthed jock-type clowns, and preached to by some of the Bible beaters.
Were their rights violated? If they weren’t, then we must applaud the system here even if we are in sympathy with them. 5. A FARMS-type (farmsresearch.com) know-it-all-yet-know-nothing type Mormon showed up to give his crap books away. He didn’t want to talk reason. He only loves science which backs up his religious views, and science which does not is just "shaky" according to this dishonest man I encountered.
You missed an opportunity for a free book! ;’) I probably feel pretty much the same about his book as you do, but you can’t expect him to engage you in a discussion when what he wanted to do was to distribute his books. Such a discussion would have been off-purpose, wouldn’t it? And, I stand by my previous statements about the protest zones & hope they can & shall be eliminated. The ACLU of Utah should take a stronger stand on this matter of zoning & pushing & squeezing protestors out of key areas. Where one stands is a key part of speaking – when you’re on public property. A sidewalk is not just for walking. It’s also for standing. Several times the SLC Police asked me to move along. I did so but I resented doing so. The Police would not allow people to speak freely to the protestors. That was wrong as well (because they would only allow ONE usage of the sidewalk instead of MULTIPLE USES of the public sidewalk).
I am not sure about this one. You may have a valid point, but then again you wouldn’t think it unreasonable if a policeman asked a person to move along who was chatting with a cop directing traffic. Albeit the example is maybe too extreme for illustration, but their interests of the majority of the people there are about the same as their attitudes towards telephone solicitors. We have our right not to be spoken to or harrangued if we don’t want to be. If there were a large group of MormoNazis yelling at a group of us as we went into a convention of former Mormons, I would resent it, too. I would even think my rights had been violated. Privacy is a right even in a public place. Steve Lowther
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However there later showed up another Mormon in the designated area who had a sign which read in part "does anyone have Porter Rockwell’s cell number?" Porter Rockwell was a henchman (assassin on behalf of) of Brigham Young. Hell of a guy too- you know his first name was Orrin, and the present Senator is a direct descendant, don’t you? By the time the Mormons had been burned out and murdered in a couple of major enclaves, they were getting pretty tired of it all, and the Avenging Angel was pretty well justified. Besides, Rockwell was just *cool*.
I agree the man’s sign was worth a smile, but justifying supporting a murderer because your friends were murdered simply is not Christian. Ol’ Port claimed he never killed a man who didn’t deserve it, but I would take issue with him at least in a few cases. Rockwell is not cool. He is an escalating personality. If the Mormons were more like Buddhists and less like the militants you find among the Christians, Hindus, and Muslims, Mormons would have had to endure less persecution. He is not the kind of person we want in this world, but he may be necessary. Warriors are necessary to defend against predation, but they attract as much violence as they deter. I get a kind of cold shiver that anyone thinks a killer is cool. Steve Lowther
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Your bias is quite obvious. Please tell me. Do Citizens of the United States of America have the right to worship as they please? Do they have the right to do so without harrassment, antagonism, and insults. Do Americans have the right to walk out of their church, having just been married without bullhorns calling them names? How does the right of a precious young Lady to special day, take a back seat to obnoxious harrasment in the name of the first ammendment. Why are there not laws protecting people from insulting behavior, that is done in a way that intentionally tries to incite a negative reaction? When you fish along a BOM on a string hoping someone will grab at it, or wave underwear around like a flag and wipe your ass with it, that is only hoping to get a reaction that will get you on the news and prove how horrible those Mormons are. With the right to Freedom of Speech comes the responsibility to use that freedom in a way that does not trample all over other peoples freedom. Lastly, how on earth do these street preachers think that their in your face antagonistic behavior will convert anyone. How is this behavior Christian? Truely the preachers are trampling on the rights of Mormons and their actions will only serve to polarize the extreme right wing and get their right to freedom of speech restricted. .
Are you sitting down, Kevin? I agree with you. I would not want a bunch of Mormons gathered on a sidewalk yelling at me for attending a seminar critical of Mormonism. As far as violating freedom of speech? I hold my right to interactive privacy above anyone’s freedom of speech. I have the right not to be disturbed by telemarketers, or to be harrassed when I am walking to any place in public where I am entitled to go. What is interactive privacy? The right not to give or receive communication. This privacy is not surrendered because I stand in a public place. One may approach a stranger respectfully and initiate a conversation. This is an application, an appeal for the surrender of another’s right to privacy. If the request is denied, the initiator has no right to continue the conversation or even to repeat the request. Even if the requestor is a reporter. No one has the right to address me with a bull horn or a loud voice without my express or implied invitation. This right to privacy is among the most fundamental of all rights, and courts already have established the precedents when these rights can be abrogated. My right of interactive privacy should always trump your freedom of speech. Someone may have a right to request a conversation or unilateral communication, but he has no right to demand it. Steve Lowther
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Harrassment has a very specific definition and requires a specific legal standard to be prosecutable. And no one has a "right" to be free from others’ antagonism as long as it does not rise to the level of harrassment or prevent one from going about one’s business. I.e., one cannot trespass into someone else’s place of worship, but one cannot be prevented from standing on public property with a sign or handful of leaflets. This is the essence of free speech. The LDS church has circumvented this little inconvenience by purchasing public land for its private use and by somehow forcing critics into designated, cordoned "free-speech" zones. Is this a foretaste of what their "Zion" government is going to be like?
Harrassment should have a narrow enough definition to protect your right of interactive privacy. Someone should have the right to request a conversation or unilateral communication with you, but you should have the right to preserve your interactive privacy without having to sustain a defense of it. In other words, if I ask you if you want to talk, you should have the right to say "no", legal precedents for exceptions withstanding. If you attend an ex-Mormon seminar, you should be able to do it without running a gaunlet of Mormons screaming at you. You should have the right to put your phone number on a list demanding telemarketers not to call you. Your right to interactive privacy should always trump another’s freedom of speech. Steve Lowther
Response:
Your bias is quite obvious. Please tell me. Do Citizens of the United States of America have the right to worship as they please? Yes. Do they have the right to do so without harrassment, antagonism, and insults. Not necessarily. And their worship on a sidewalk is a lot different from in a church. Were the protesters in the church?
No, they are on the public street making a civil nuisance. If they were drunks stumbling out of the former Dead Goat Saloon, you can bet they’d be in the clink. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do Americans have the right to walk out of their church, having just been married without bullhorns calling them names? No. How does the right of a precious young Lady to special day, take a back seat to obnoxious harrasment in the name of the first ammendment. Very cute. "precious young lady." How about "cherubic young man?" Why are there not laws protecting people from insulting behavior, that is done in a way that intentionally tries to incite a negative reaction? Kevin–let’s remember it was the LDS who fought last conference. Why are there not laws along the lines of turn the other cheek? Or is that just so many words? When you fish along a BOM on a string hoping someone will grab at it, or wave underwear around like a flag and wipe your ass with it, that is only hoping to get a reaction that will get you on the news and prove how horrible those Mormons are. Somehow, I think the lDS outnumbered the nonLDS in this case. Could they not turn the other cheek? With the right to Freedom of Speech comes the responsibility to use that freedom in a way that does not trample all over other peoples freedom. Lastly, how on earth do these street preachers think that their in your face antagonistic behavior will convert anyone. How is this behavior Christian? Oh it’s not. Neither were the assaults at last conference by the LDS. Truely the preachers are trampling on the rights of Mormons and their actions will only serve to polarize the extreme right wing and get their right to freedom of speech restricted. . I sort of doubt it. — Regards, Lee the James, uM, feminist The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence–Thomas H. Huxley
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Lastly, how on earth do these street preachers think that their in your face antagonistic behavior will convert anyone. How is this behavior Christian? Well now, Gunny; I wouldn’t start out on ‘in your face preachers’ <g even just traveling through the Saints’ Empire is enough to get a bellyful of ‘christian antagonism’.
HOw so? I’ve never been approached as I entrered the hallowed halls of Squatters… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Chas
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please tell me. Do Citizens of the United States of America have the right to worship as they please? Of course. Do they have the right to do so without harrassment, antagonism, and insults. Harrassment has a very specific definition and requires a specific legal standard to be prosecutable. And no one has a "right" to be free from others’ antagonism as long as it does not rise to the level of harrassment or prevent one from going about one’s business. I.e., one cannot trespass into someone else’s place of worship, but one cannot be prevented from standing on public property with a sign or handful of leaflets. This is the essence of free speech. The LDS church has circumvented this little inconvenience by purchasing public land for its private use and by somehow forcing critics into designated, cordoned "free-speech" zones. Is this a foretaste of what their "Zion" government is going to be like?
Hey, they bought the land in collusion with DeeDee and later Sparky. Regardless of ownership, I think any sane person would agree these "evangelicals" are a public nuisance and should face the same legal difficulties as secular perpetrators of public disturbances. Do Americans have the right to walk out of their church, having just been married without bullhorns calling them names? I have never heard of a situation in which this occurred. References? I
Temple Square. It has indeed occurred. _have_ witnessed protests at temple "Open Houses," which are (apparently) public events in which non-members as well as members are invited to take a look at a newly constructed temple and "visit" with missionaries. Of course, these events are intricately managed evangelical programs, and no temple marriages take place during Open Houses. Critics are not only not prohibited from attending such functions, they are fully justified in showing a point of view different from that promoted by the official church spokesmen. As long as they do not trespass or harrass they are totally within their free-speech rights. Why are there not laws protecting people from insulting behavior, that is done in a way that intentionally tries to incite a negative reaction? Because in the U.S., we have (or used to have, or like to think we have) something called "free speech." You are not protected from criticism simply by calling it "insulting."
This ain’t criticism. It is harrassment. It constitutes hate. With the right to Freedom of Speech comes the responsibility to use that freedom in a way that does not trample all over other peoples freedom. How does standing on public property expressing an opinion or distributing literature constitute a violation of someone else’s freedom?
When you go so far as to create a disturbance. Let me put it this way. I’m an atheist. Next month I walk from City Canyon to Squatters to meet Don and Mark. I take a shortcut through gawds little bit of Paree. There I’m subjected to screaming, garment waving evangelicals hurling epithats at the brethren. My right to peaceful transit in the open has been violated. I’m not even the object of their scorn (devil worshipper though I may be). Why do I have to put up with their racket, any more than any other sect’s abuse? Lastly, how on earth do these street preachers think that their in your face antagonistic behavior will convert anyone. How is this behavior Christian? Irrelevant to the discussion. Certain critics’ effectiveness or lack thereof is their problem, not a free speech issue.
If that’s free speech, then am I free to walk up to them and give it to them with every expletive in my arsenal? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Truely the preachers are trampling on the rights of Mormons and their actions will only serve to polarize the extreme right wing and get their right to freedom of speech restricted. "Free speech: Use it and lose it!" Kevin GySgt USMC (retired) United States Marine Corps… When it absolutely, positively, has to be destroyed overnight. That explains a lot. The Neo-cons have taken your motto and applied it very effectively to the U.S. Constitution.
Response:
Your bias is quite obvious. Please tell me. Do Citizens of the United States of America have the right to worship as they please?
Yes. Do they have the right to do so without harrassment, antagonism, and insults.
Not necessarily. And their worship on a sidewalk is a lot different from in a church. Were the protesters in the church? Do Americans have the right to walk out of their church, having just been married without bullhorns calling them names?
No. How does the right of a precious young Lady to special day, take a back seat to obnoxious harrasment in the name of the first ammendment.
Very cute. "precious young lady." How about "cherubic young man?" Why are there not laws protecting people from insulting behavior, that is done in a way that intentionally tries to incite a negative reaction?
Kevin–let’s remember it was the LDS who fought last conference. Why are there not laws along the lines of turn the other cheek? Or is that just so many words? When you fish along a BOM on a string hoping someone will grab at it, or wave underwear around like a flag and wipe your ass with it, that is only hoping to get a reaction that will get you on the news and prove how horrible those Mormons are.
Somehow, I think the lDS outnumbered the nonLDS in this case. Could they not turn the other cheek? With the right to Freedom of Speech comes the responsibility to use that freedom in a way that does not trample all over other peoples freedom. Lastly, how on earth do these street preachers think that their in your face antagonistic behavior will convert anyone. How is this behavior Christian?
Oh it’s not. Neither were the assaults at last conference by the LDS. Truely the preachers are trampling on the rights of Mormons and their actions will only serve to polarize the extreme right wing and get their right to freedom of speech restricted. .
I sort of doubt it. — Regards, Lee the James, uM, feminist The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence–Thomas H. Huxley
Response:
Please tell me. Do Citizens of the United States of America have the right to worship as they please?
Of course. Do they have the right to do so without harrassment, antagonism, and insults.
Harrassment has a very specific definition and requires a specific legal standard to be prosecutable. And no one has a "right" to be free from others’ antagonism as long as it does not rise to the level of harrassment or prevent one from going about one’s business. I.e., one cannot trespass into someone else’s place of worship, but one cannot be prevented from standing on public property with a sign or handful of leaflets. This is the essence of free speech. The LDS church has circumvented this little inconvenience by purchasing public land for its private use and by somehow forcing critics into designated, cordoned "free-speech" zones. Is this a foretaste of what their "Zion" government is going to be like? Do Americans have the right to walk out of their church, having just been married without bullhorns calling them names?
I have never heard of a situation in which this occurred. References? I _have_ witnessed protests at temple "Open Houses," which are (apparently) public events in which non-members as well as members are invited to take a look at a newly constructed temple and "visit" with missionaries. Of course, these events are intricately managed evangelical programs, and no temple marriages take place during Open Houses. Critics are not only not prohibited from attending such functions, they are fully justified in showing a point of view different from that promoted by the official church spokesmen. As long as they do not trespass or harrass they are totally within their free-speech rights. Why are there not laws protecting people from insulting behavior, that is done in a way that intentionally tries to incite a negative reaction?
Because in the U.S., we have (or used to have, or like to think we have) something called "free speech." You are not protected from criticism simply by calling it "insulting." With the right to Freedom of Speech comes the responsibility to use that freedom in a way that does not trample all over other peoples freedom.
How does standing on public property expressing an opinion or distributing literature constitute a violation of someone else’s freedom? Lastly, how on earth do these street preachers think that their in your face antagonistic behavior will convert anyone. How is this behavior Christian?
Irrelevant to the discussion. Certain critics’ effectiveness or lack thereof is their problem, not a free speech issue. Truely the preachers are trampling on the rights of Mormons and their actions will only serve to polarize the extreme right wing and get their right to freedom of speech restricted.
"Free speech: Use it and lose it!" Kevin GySgt USMC (retired) United States Marine Corps… When it absolutely, positively, has to be destroyed overnight.
That explains a lot. The Neo-cons have taken your motto and applied it very effectively to the U.S. Constitution.
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snip There were also two young jock-like men walking around in clown suits. They had Chick-Fil-A Restaurant balloons they were passing out.
Sounds like they were missionaries. 
Anyhow, the whole description of the various characters sounds like the usual gaggle of cranks, crazies and the unemployed that tend to congregate around Conference time.
Response:
Here is my report of observations I made on Saturday during a two hour visit to the protest area between the Mormon Conference Center & Temple Square from 11:30AM to 1:30PM. Essentially, you went around trying to pick a fight and couldn’t get arrested, right? You went to the holiest place in Mormon territory;
The sidewalk in front of the Conference Center? joined a religious contention already in progress, challenged a vendor in public to defend his product- not so you’d buy it, but just to waste his time?
Sounded more like he was trying to get the author of a questionable treatise to defend his viewpoint with actual evidence. Oh well. However there later showed up another Mormon in the designated area who had a sign which read in part "does anyone have Porter Rockwell’s cell number?" Porter Rockwell was a henchman (assassin on behalf of) of Brigham Young. Hell of a guy too- you know his first name was Orrin, and the present Senator is a direct descendant, don’t you? By the time the Mormons had been burned out and murdered in a couple of major enclaves, they were getting pretty tired of it all, and the Avenging Angel was pretty well justified.
If you read up on some history you might find that the anti-Mormons had some justification as well. The Mormons didn’t exactly make themselves welcome everywhere they went. There were also two young jock-like men walking around in clown suits. ……they said to a Salt Lake City Police Officer something like: "Hey, wouldn’t it be great if we could shoot the street protesters?" The cop responded with a chuckle & then said "that would draw some media attention. Ha Ha." It’s called ‘free speech’; get used to it.
If the chicken-suited-jock-clowns wanted to practice free speech, they should have been required to report to the Designated Free Speech Zone ™ along with the other cranks.
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Lastly, how on earth do these street preachers think that their in your face antagonistic behavior will convert anyone. How is this behavior Christian?
Well now, Gunny; I wouldn’t start out on ‘in your face preachers’ <g even just traveling through the Saints’ Empire is enough to get a bellyful of ‘christian antagonism’. Chas
Response:
Lastly, how on earth do these street preachers think that their in your face antagonistic behavior will convert anyone. How is this behavior Christian? Well now, Gunny; I wouldn’t start out on ‘in your face preachers’ <g even just traveling through the Saints’ Empire is enough to get a bellyful of ‘christian antagonism’. Chas
Whoops !! R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is my report of observations I made on Saturday during a two hour visit to the protest area between the Mormon Conference Center & Temple Square from 11:30AM to 1:30PM. On the northwest corner of South Temple & West Temple there was a man trying to give away books. He said it was a work of fiction which was along the lines of Carl Sagan’s Cosmos series, except for Mormons. He claimed it showed how science validated Mormonism. I asked him about the DNA Book of Mormon (BOM) issue. The man said he didn’t know much about it, but that he had heard that the science of DNA was so primitive that it couldn’t say either way about the ancestry of American Indians. Also he said that he believed that there were people already here when Lehi & his band came. When I told him about the Cohen gene in a tribe of black people in Africa he said that science would eventually show that Mormonism was true. He also stated that there was archeological evidence for that non-indians had come & that they had clearly interbred with indians (Egyptians & others), but then he asked "where is the DNA evidence for that? That shows how DNA evidence doesn’t work very well." He also claimed that there is archeological evidence for the BOM. I told that man that most DNA scientists would not consider their science to be on shaky ground. He responded that he had addressed this in his book. Anyway the man got angry at this point. He said that he wanted to move on to just passing out his books. I told him that he was just as brain washed as the rest of the Mormons. I don’t know the title of the book he was trying to give away. I walked eastward and came across the designated protest zone set up by the City. There were two big problems with the zone: a.) it was too small, and b.) it did not allow for easy conversations between protesters & others. It was corralled between the street & a concrete barrier. So people who obeyed the zone were forced into a little boxed in area where they couldn’t speak directly or conveniently or on a first hand basis with other people. There were a couple of Mormons within the zone with signs asking for tolerance with regard to the other protestors. However there later showed up another Mormon in the designated area who had a sign which read in part "does anyone have Porter Rockwell’s cell number?" Porter Rockwell was a henchman (assassin on behalf of) of Brigham Young. A man who represented the church group suing the City over the protest zone issue was across on the other side of the cross walk area. He told me that he fully expected to be arrested when he showed up, because he refused to stay within a designated protest zone. However the City decided not to arrest him for some reason. He was standing behind a barricade on the east side of the edge of the cross walk which goes between the Mormon Conference Center & the Mormon Temple Square (on the rocks next to a stream there). There were also two young jock-like men walking around in clown suits. They had Chick-Fil-A Restaurant balloons they were passing out. As they were circling around on the west side of sidewalk in front of the Conference Center & in front of the designated protest barricades they said to a Salt Lake City Police Officer something like: "Hey, wouldn’t it be great if we could shoot the street protesters?" The cop responded with a chuckle & then said "that would draw some media attention. Ha Ha." As the clown suited men were crossing the street I asked them who they represented & they said Chick-Fil-A. I then asked them if they wanted to shoot all the protestors. They said "yes." There was a group of lesbian activists there with a coffin which had info about teen suicide in Utah. The clowns harassed them & they also tried to yell over the top of the some yelling preachers. This was on the other side of the street from where I was before (this time being in front of the north gate of the Mormon Temple Square). I complained to a Salt Lake City Police lieutenant about the clowns, what they had said to me & to an officer & the officer’s response. The lieutenant brushed me off by stating that people a right to free speech & that with regard to the cop if I wanted to file a complaint with Internal Affairs on Monday I could. I suppose the clowns had a right to yell at the same time as the preachers. However they did not IMO have a right to threaten to shoot them, nor did a cop have a right to chuckle about it & go along with their supposed joke. So these clowns were apparently Nazi Mormons come to try & yell at & harass the preachers & the gays who showed up to protest. I called the owner of Chick-Fil-A in Crossroads Mall. He said that the clowns did not represent Chick-Fil-A. I told the owner that the clowns were representing themselves as such & that they were advocating shooting the protestors. He was a bit shocked I think & thanked me for my call. I also told the police lieutenant about the fraud being perpetrated by the clowns & he said that if Chick-Fil-A wanted to file a complaint against them they could. So here’s my key conclusions and observations about the protests this April: 1. The new protest zones created by the city are unreasonable. They seek to put the protestors into an area where passers by cannot have first hand conversations with them. The only way first hand interaction & speaking can take place between the protesters & the common citizen is if a protestor goes outside the limited unreasonable confining zone and risks arrest. That is unacceptable. Again I don’t support the message of the Bible beaters, but their actions are constitutional whereas IMO the zones are not. Also the protest zone was far too small & confining. The zone was designed to move the protestors away from key areas where they could be seen by conference goers. Thus the zones were designed to ameliorate & degrade the messages of the protestors. Thus the zones as drafted by the City went against the spirit of the First Amendment. 2. Vociferous Nazi Mormons showed up in clown suits & in regular clothes there. These Nazi type Mormons advocated having the police present shoot the regular protestors, and at least one policeman chucked at the prospect. Another Nazi type Mormon showed a sign wishing that the Porter Rockwell (again, the henchman/assain of Brigham Young) would show up to kill the protestors. 3. Regular Bible beating Christians showed up. Some were friendly to talk to. Some were not. 4. Gay activists showed up, but were harassed by the Nazi Mormon fraudulent loud mouthed jock-type clowns, and preached to by some of the Bible beaters. 5. A FARMS-type (farmsresearch.com) know-it-all-yet-know-nothing type Mormon showed up to give his crap books away. He didn’t want to talk reason. He only loves science which backs up his religious views, and science which does not is just "shaky" according to this dishonest man I encountered. And, I stand by my previous statements about the protest zones & hope they can & shall be eliminated. The ACLU of Utah should take a stronger stand on this matter of zoning & pushing & squeezing protestors out of key areas. Where one stands is a key part of speaking – when you’re on public property. A sidewalk is not just for walking. It’s also for standing. Several times the SLC Police asked me to move along. I did so but I resented doing so. The Police would not allow people to speak freely to the protestors. That was wrong as well (because they would only allow ONE usage of the sidewalk instead of MULTIPLE USES of the public sidewalk).
"I went down to the demonstration/ To get my fair share of abuse …" ~~ Rolling Stones, "You Can’t Always Get What You Want"
Response:
Your bias is quite obvious. Please tell me. Do Citizens of the United States of America have the right to worship as they please? Do they have the right to do so without harrassment, antagonism, and insults. Do Americans have the right to walk out of their church, having just been married without bullhorns calling them names? How does the right of a precious young Lady to special day, take a back seat to obnoxious harrasment in the name of the first ammendment. Why are there not laws protecting people from insulting behavior, that is done in a way that intentionally tries to incite a negative reaction? When you fish along a BOM on a string hoping someone will grab at it, or wave underwear around like a flag and wipe your ass with it, that is only hoping to get a reaction that will get you on the news and prove how horrible those Mormons are. With the right to Freedom of Speech comes the responsibility to use that freedom in a way that does not trample all over other peoples freedom. Lastly, how on earth do these street preachers think that their in your face antagonistic behavior will convert anyone. How is this behavior Christian? Truely the preachers are trampling on the rights of Mormons and their actions will only serve to polarize the extreme right wing and get their right to freedom of speech restricted. . — Kevin GySgt USMC (retired) United States Marine Corps… When it absolutely, positively, has to be destroyed overnight.
Response:
Here is my report of observations I made on Saturday during a two hour visit to the protest area between the Mormon Conference Center & Temple Square from 11:30AM to 1:30PM.
Essentially, you went around trying to pick a fight and couldn’t get arrested, right? You went to the holiest place in Mormon territory; joined a religious contention already in progress, challenged a vendor in public to defend his product- not so you’d buy it, but just to waste his time? And you’re grumpy because people frowned at you? He also stated that there was archeological evidence for that non-indians had come & that they had clearly interbred with indians (Egyptians & others),
Yup; good information coming out with the translations of the various Ogam writing. I might recommend ‘America B.C.’ by Barry Fell, a paleolinguist specializing in the languages of ’sea-faring’ peoples of Western Europe. Anyway the man got angry at this point. He said that he wanted to move on to just passing out his books. I told him that he was just as brain washed as the rest of the Mormons. I don’t know the title of the book he was trying to give away.
Touching little story- nice to see you live to bring a little sunshine into someone’s life, every day. And, an intellectual like you not-remembering the title of his book? However there later showed up another Mormon in the designated area who had a sign which read in part "does anyone have Porter Rockwell’s cell number?" Porter Rockwell was a henchman (assassin on behalf of) of Brigham Young.
Hell of a guy too- you know his first name was Orrin, and the present Senator is a direct descendant, don’t you? By the time the Mormons had been burned out and murdered in a couple of major enclaves, they were getting pretty tired of it all, and the Avenging Angel was pretty well justified. Besides, Rockwell was just *cool*. There were also two young jock-like men walking around in clown suits. ……they said to a Salt Lake City Police Officer something like: "Hey, wouldn’t it be great if we could shoot the street protesters?" The cop responded with a chuckle & then said "that would draw some media attention. Ha Ha."
It’s called ‘free speech’; get used to it. As the clown suited men were crossing the street I asked them who they represented & they said Chick-Fil-A. I then asked them if they wanted to shoot all the protestors. They said "yes."
Did you consider that a corporate position, or just that of two guys in chicken suits? I complained to a Salt Lake City Police lieutenant about the clowns,
hahahahahaha that’s just *precious* ….what they had said to me & to an officer & the officer’s response. The lieutenant brushed me off by stating that people a right to free speech & that with regard to the cop if I wanted to file a complaint with Internal Affairs on Monday I could.
Your indignation doesn’t extend quite that far though, does it? I suppose the clowns had a right to yell at the same time as the preachers.
hahhahahaha you just keep them coming, don’t you? However they did not IMO have a right to threaten to shoot them,
They didn’t. But the idea just keeps getting funnier; two guys in chicken suits, firing into a group of religious disputants, over points of doctrine and scientific dispute. You know, and you. nor did a cop have a right to chuckle about it & go along with their supposed joke.
What’s he supposed to do; scold them? Beat them into submission and arrest them? They’re already in chicken suits, dude; how much worse could it get? So these clowns were apparently Nazi Mormons come to try & yell at & harass the preachers & the gays who showed up to protest.
That’s hilarious! Nazi Mormons in Chicken Suits in Theological Dispute with Preachers and Gays; film at 11. I called the owner of Chick-Fil-A in Crossroads Mall.
ratting on the Nazi Mormons in Chicken Suits……. hahhahahahahaha Sounds like a Monty Python skit- you’d be played by Eric Idle. 4. Gay activists showed up, but were harassed by the Nazi Mormon fraudulent loud mouthed jock-type clowns, and preached to by some of the Bible beaters.
Quelle surprise. Of course, the keyword there is ’showed-up’- otherwise, the chickens and the preachers would have had little to do but argue about the DNA results with the archeologists. tough crowd there, Sparky. A sidewalk is not just for walking. It’s also for standing.
Get that on a tablet of stone, did you? Several times the SLC Police asked me to move along. I did so but I resented doing so.
Pouted, did you? The Police would not allow people to speak freely to the protestors. That was wrong as well (because they would only allow ONE usage of the sidewalk instead of MULTIPLE USES of the public sidewalk).
One would suspect that you’re not a lawyer either. Chas
Response:
Here is my report of observations I made on Saturday during a two hour visit to the protest area between the Mormon Conference Center & Temple Square from 11:30AM to 1:30PM. On the northwest corner of South Temple & West Temple there was a man trying to give away books. He said it was a work of fiction which was along the lines of Carl Sagan’s Cosmos series, except for Mormons. He claimed it showed how science validated Mormonism. I asked him about the DNA Book of Mormon (BOM) issue. The man said he didn’t know much about it, but that he had heard that the science of DNA was so primitive that it couldn’t say either way about the ancestry of American Indians. Also he said that he believed that there were people already here when Lehi & his band came. When I told him about the Cohen gene in a tribe of black people in Africa he said that science would eventually show that Mormonism was true. He also stated that there was archeological evidence for that non-indians had come & that they had clearly interbred with indians (Egyptians & others), but then he asked "where is the DNA evidence for that? That shows how DNA evidence doesn’t work very well." He also claimed that there is archeological evidence for the BOM. I told that man that most DNA scientists would not consider their science to be on shaky ground. He responded that he had addressed this in his book. Anyway the man got angry at this point. He said that he wanted to move on to just passing out his books. I told him that he was just as brain washed as the rest of the Mormons. I don’t know the title of the book he was trying to give away. I walked eastward and came across the designated protest zone set up by the City. There were two big problems with the zone: a.) it was too small, and b.) it did not allow for easy conversations between protesters & others. It was corralled between the street & a concrete barrier. So people who obeyed the zone were forced into a little boxed in area where they couldn’t speak directly or conveniently or on a first hand basis with other people. There were a couple of Mormons within the zone with signs asking for tolerance with regard to the other protestors. However there later showed up another Mormon in the designated area who had a sign which read in part "does anyone have Porter Rockwell’s cell number?" Porter Rockwell was a henchman (assassin on behalf of) of Brigham Young. A man who represented the church group suing the City over the protest zone issue was across on the other side of the cross walk area. He told me that he fully expected to be arrested when he showed up, because he refused to stay within a designated protest zone. However the City decided not to arrest him for some reason. He was standing behind a barricade on the east side of the edge of the cross walk which goes between the Mormon Conference Center & the Mormon Temple Square (on the rocks next to a stream there). There were also two young jock-like men walking around in clown suits. They had Chick-Fil-A Restaurant balloons they were passing out. As they were circling around on the west side of sidewalk in front of the Conference Center & in front of the designated protest barricades they said to a Salt Lake City Police Officer something like: "Hey, wouldn’t it be great if we could shoot the street protesters?" The cop responded with a chuckle & then said "that would draw some media attention. Ha Ha." As the clown suited men were crossing the street I asked them who they represented & they said Chick-Fil-A. I then asked them if they wanted to shoot all the protestors. They said "yes." There was a group of lesbian activists there with a coffin which had info about teen suicide in Utah. The clowns harassed them & they also tried to yell over the top of the some yelling preachers. This was on the other side of the street from where I was before (this time being in front of the north gate of the Mormon Temple Square). I complained to a Salt Lake City Police lieutenant about the clowns, what they had said to me & to an officer & the officer’s response. The lieutenant brushed me off by stating that people a right to free speech & that with regard to the cop if I wanted to file a complaint with Internal Affairs on Monday I could. I suppose the clowns had a right to yell at the same time as the preachers. However they did not IMO have a right to threaten to shoot them, nor did a cop have a right to chuckle about it & go along with their supposed joke. So these clowns were apparently Nazi Mormons come to try & yell at & harass the preachers & the gays who showed up to protest. I called the owner of Chick-Fil-A in Crossroads Mall. He said that the clowns did not represent Chick-Fil-A. I told the owner that the clowns were representing themselves as such & that they were advocating shooting the protestors. He was a bit shocked I think & thanked me for my call. I also told the police lieutenant about the fraud being perpetrated by the clowns & he said that if Chick-Fil-A wanted to file a complaint against them they could. So here’s my key conclusions and observations about the protests this April: 1. The new protest zones created by the city are unreasonable. They seek to put the protestors into an area where passers by cannot have first hand conversations with them. The only way first hand interaction & speaking can take place between the protesters & the common citizen is if a protestor goes outside the limited unreasonable confining zone and risks arrest. That is unacceptable. Again I don’t support the message of the Bible beaters, but their actions are constitutional whereas IMO the zones are not. Also the protest zone was far too small & confining. The zone was designed to move the protestors away from key areas where they could be seen by conference goers. Thus the zones were designed to ameliorate & degrade the messages of the protestors. Thus the zones as drafted by the City went against the spirit of the First Amendment. 2. Vociferous Nazi Mormons showed up in clown suits & in regular clothes there. These Nazi type Mormons advocated having the police present shoot the regular protestors, and at least one policeman chucked at the prospect. Another Nazi type Mormon showed a sign wishing that the Porter Rockwell (again, the henchman/assain of Brigham Young) would show up to kill the protestors. 3. Regular Bible beating Christians showed up. Some were friendly to talk to. Some were not. 4. Gay activists showed up, but were harassed by the Nazi Mormon fraudulent loud mouthed jock-type clowns, and preached to by some of the Bible beaters. 5. A FARMS-type (farmsresearch.com) know-it-all-yet-know-nothing type Mormon showed up to give his crap books away. He didn’t want to talk reason. He only loves science which backs up his religious views, and science which does not is just "shaky" according to this dishonest man I encountered. And, I stand by my previous statements about the protest zones & hope they can & shall be eliminated. The ACLU of Utah should take a stronger stand on this matter of zoning & pushing & squeezing protestors out of key areas. Where one stands is a key part of speaking – when you’re on public property. A sidewalk is not just for walking. It’s also for standing. Several times the SLC Police asked me to move along. I did so but I resented doing so. The Police would not allow people to speak freely to the protestors. That was wrong as well (because they would only allow ONE usage of the sidewalk instead of MULTIPLE USES of the public sidewalk).
Response:
Question:
x-no-archive:yes Laura Bush showed up with two Secret Service body guards. I got a good photograph of that. Please post a link when photo is available
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/awp.htm — Anti-War / Anti-Fascism protest: http://www.linkline.com/persinal/frice/awp.htm Support Halliburton’s Troops!
Response:
I’ve got some 80 photographs that I’ll make available tomorrow. The protest was a good one and the police mostly behaved. I got some good photographs of the cops and their deadly toys. There was some shooting — three shots — down a ways in the middle of the protest march after we all turned left off of Hollywood, and a bunch of cops (followed by news reporters with cameras) swarmed what looked to be a fight started by one of the hand full of pro-war kooks and some stupid fuck dressed up as a "black block" moron. So we had what looked to me to be a violent Republinazi kook jump a wannabe violent arnarchy kook and about 30 cops came down on them good and hard. And a "well done," too. "Black block" morons are those who dress up in black in an organized way so they can committ crimes and then melt into the crowd when the good guys come to arrest them. They often try to discard their outer black clothes after they commit their crimes. Real protesters don’t like these types and there was an effort to politely ask them not to come but of course there’s always kooks in any crowd — Republinazis or anti-capitalist kooks. Laura Bush showed up with two Secret Service body guards. I got a good photograph of that. I don’t like the Socialist Parties that join these protests, and I don’t like the illegal Mexican groups that were here demanding free driving licenses, free citizenship, and free what not. This was an anti-war, anti-fascism, anti-racism demonstration, not a protest demanding free hand outs from the already massively abused tax payer! — Jobs, not Bush. Support Halliburton’s Troops!
Response:
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