O.T.60 Minutes – Andy Rooney…
Question:
CW wrote: >>>Only the person who became the equivalent of "state’s evidence" has been >>>offered such a sweet deal. >>Not this one. He was beaten during training and was discharged as a >>result of that. >>Not only didn’t he commit any crimes; he never had a chance to. >>K. > Are you referring to Sivits or to someone else?
Someone else: http://tinyurl.com/2pu28
Response:
In <news:Ex7tc.55370$cz5.21155328@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>, CW said: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Kath" <sendme.nos…@hotpop.com> wrote in message > news:40b4e793$1_3@newspeer2.tds.net… >> CW wrote: >>>>> *Former soldier says he was beaten as part of training at >>>>> Guantanamo* http://tinyurl.com/2pu28 >>>>> While I don’t disagree with the rather minor punishment most of >>>>> these people face [a year in prison, dishonorable discharge], the >>>>> blame is with the people who created the system that allowed for >>>>> these behaviors. >>> Only the person who became the equivalent of "state’s evidence" has >>> been offered such a sweet deal. >> Not this one. He was beaten during training and was discharged as a >> result of that. >> Not only didn’t he commit any crimes; he never had a chance to. >> K. > Are you referring to Sivits or to someone else? > CW
She’s referring to Sean Baker, the former soldier in the link she gave you. http://tinyurl.com/2pu28 He’s not being investigated for having committed any crime… he’s a victim of and material witness to the fact that the atmosphere in which such crimes were committed was a pervasive one. ((U)) M
Response:
"Kath" <sendme.nos…@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:40b508ae$1_2@newspeer2.tds.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> CW wrote: > >>>Only the person who became the equivalent of "state’s evidence" has been > >>>offered such a sweet deal. > >>Not this one. He was beaten during training and was discharged as a > >>result of that. > >>Not only didn’t he commit any crimes; he never had a chance to. > >>K. > > Are you referring to Sivits or to someone else? > Someone else: http://tinyurl.com/2pu28
Kath, You implied that the person involved was prosecuted. This person was not involved in any Abu Ghraib allegation. CW
Response:
CW wrote: > Kath, > You implied that the person involved was prosecuted. This person was not > involved in any Abu Ghraib allegation.
I can’t find any place where I implied that, but if you have something like that, let me know. I’m not aware of any prosecution of this man because he was a victim, and committed no crime. I did, however, say this: "Finally, soldiers were specifically trained to violate the Conventions. http://tinyurl.com/2pu28" K.
Response:
In <news:c932sh$5vl$1@news.netins.net>, hantayo said: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Michael" <muirh…@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message > news:2hkg3kFdaphoU1@uni-berlin.de… >> In <news:Ex7tc.55370$cz5.21155328@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>, >> CW said: >>> "Kath" <sendme.nos…@hotpop.com> wrote in message >>> news:40b4e793$1_3@newspeer2.tds.net… >>>> CW wrote: >>>>>>> *Former soldier says he was beaten as part of training at >>>>>>> Guantanamo* http://tinyurl.com/2pu28 >>>>>>> While I don’t disagree with the rather minor punishment most of >>>>>>> these people face [a year in prison, dishonorable discharge], >>>>>>> the blame is with the people who created the system that >>>>>>> allowed for these behaviors. >>>>> Only the person who became the equivalent of "state’s evidence" >>>>> has been offered such a sweet deal. >>>> Not this one. He was beaten during training and was discharged as a >>>> result of that. >>>> Not only didn’t he commit any crimes; he never had a chance to. >>>> K. >>> Are you referring to Sivits or to someone else? >>> CW >> She’s referring to Sean Baker, the former soldier in the link she >> gave you. >> http://tinyurl.com/2pu28 >> He’s not being investigated for having committed any crime… he’s a >> victim of and material witness to the fact that the atmosphere in >> which such crimes were committed was a pervasive one. >> ((U)) >> M > Good God – what a bunch of assholes! That poor guy….:-( > Kathy K.
Try reading through a more thorough article. :-( http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/nation/8764553.htm ((U)) M
Response:
"Michael" <muirh…@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:2hkg3kFdaphoU1@uni-berlin.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In <news:Ex7tc.55370$cz5.21155328@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>, > CW said: > > "Kath" <sendme.nos…@hotpop.com> wrote in message > > news:40b4e793$1_3@newspeer2.tds.net… > >> CW wrote: > >>>>> *Former soldier says he was beaten as part of training at > >>>>> Guantanamo* http://tinyurl.com/2pu28 > >>>>> While I don’t disagree with the rather minor punishment most of > >>>>> these people face [a year in prison, dishonorable discharge], the > >>>>> blame is with the people who created the system that allowed for > >>>>> these behaviors. > >>> Only the person who became the equivalent of "state’s evidence" has > >>> been offered such a sweet deal. > >> Not this one. He was beaten during training and was discharged as a > >> result of that. > >> Not only didn’t he commit any crimes; he never had a chance to. > >> K. > > Are you referring to Sivits or to someone else? > > CW > She’s referring to Sean Baker, the former soldier in the link she gave you. > http://tinyurl.com/2pu28 > He’s not being investigated for having committed any crime… he’s a victim > of and material witness to the fact that the atmosphere in which such crimes > were committed was a pervasive one. > ((U)) > M
Good God – what a bunch of assholes! That poor guy….:-( Kathy K.
Response:
In <news:2hipd1FdeuuqU1@uni-berlin.de>, Michael said: > True, but irrelevant. > http://wvgazette.com/section/Editorials/200405218
Sorry, Rob… that paper’s gone subscription. There’s a copy of the same article at: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=523992 ((U)) M
Response:
"Kath" <sendme.nos…@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:40b4e793$1_3@newspeer2.tds.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> CW wrote: > >>>*Former soldier says he was beaten as part of training at Guantanamo* > >>>http://tinyurl.com/2pu28 > >>>While I don’t disagree with the rather minor punishment most of > >>>these people face [a year in prison, dishonorable discharge], the > >>>blame is with the people who created the system that allowed for > >>>these behaviors. > > Only the person who became the equivalent of "state’s evidence" has been > > offered such a sweet deal. > Not this one. He was beaten during training and was discharged as a > result of that. > Not only didn’t he commit any crimes; he never had a chance to. > K.
Are you referring to Sivits or to someone else? CW
Response:
CW wrote: >>>*Former soldier says he was beaten as part of training at Guantanamo* >>>http://tinyurl.com/2pu28 >>>While I don’t disagree with the rather minor punishment most of >>>these people face [a year in prison, dishonorable discharge], the >>>blame is with the people who created the system that allowed for >>>these behaviors. > Only the person who became the equivalent of "state’s evidence" has been > offered such a sweet deal.
Not this one. He was beaten during training and was discharged as a result of that. Not only didn’t he commit any crimes; he never had a chance to. K.
Response:
"Rob Duncan" <robdun…@gbronline.com> wrote in message
news:_o-dnQVtcth6vSndRVn-jw@gbronline.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Kath" <sendme.nos…@hotpop.com> wrote in message > news:40b36a49$1_1@newspeer2.tds.net… > > John Husvar wrote: > > > I’m in no way likely ever to be accused of being a capital "L" Liberal > > > — maybe a small "l" libertarian. (when I’m not just being a libertine) > > I agree with much of what you said, but consider that soldiers are > > apparently TRAINED to do some of what these soldiers did … and > > from many accounts, were NOT trained in the requirements of the > > Geneva Conventions or even the military’s own code of conduct. > Your ignorance is astounding, but it pales in comparison in your eagerness > to display it. Soldiers are trained in the Geneva convention as well as the > UCMJ. Get over your own delusion already. > > While > > there’s not much excuse for being inhumane, it’s not so unreasonable > > for a soldier to believe that s/he was doing what they were supposed > > to do when [1] they were trained to do just that, [2] they weren’t > > trained to know that they shouldn’t, and [3] war is, by definition, > > inhumane. Note: > > *Former soldier says he was beaten as part of training at Guantanamo* > > http://tinyurl.com/2pu28 > > While I don’t disagree with the rather minor punishment most of > > these people face [a year in prison, dishonorable discharge], the > > blame is with the people who created the system that allowed for > > these behaviors. > > KKT
Only the person who became the equivalent of "state’s evidence" has been offered such a sweet deal. CW
Response:
"Michael" <muirh…@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:2hipq1Fcsc0qU1@uni-berlin.de… > In <news:2hipd1FdeuuqU1@uni-berlin.de>, > Michael said: > > True, but irrelevant. > > http://wvgazette.com/section/Editorials/200405218 > Sorry, Rob… that paper’s gone subscription. > There’s a copy of the same article at: > http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=523992 > ((U)) > M
No wonder they sent him back to the states. Cant handle the horrors of war. (not that many can) Rob (been there myself in a way)
Response:
In <news:YtidnR4ZQLKVpindRVn-jw@gbronline.com>, Rob Duncan said: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Michael" <muirh…@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message > news:2hipq1Fcsc0qU1@uni-berlin.de… >> In <news:2hipd1FdeuuqU1@uni-berlin.de>, >> Michael said: >>> True, but irrelevant. >>> http://wvgazette.com/section/Editorials/200405218 >> Sorry, Rob… that paper’s gone subscription. >> There’s a copy of the same article at: >> http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=523992 >> ((U)) >> M > No wonder they sent him back to the states. Cant handle the horrors > of war. (not that many can) > Rob > (been there myself in a way)
I found the original for you, Rob. It’s an interview transcript. ((U)) M http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/9316830p-10241546c.html Text: Atrocities in Iraq: ‘I killed innocent people for our government’ By Paul Rockwell — Special to The Bee Published 2:15 am PDT Sunday, May 16, 2004 "We forget what war is about, what it does to those who wage it and those who suffer from it. Those who hate war the most, I have often found, are veterans who know it." – Chris Hedges, New York Times reporter and author of "War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning" For nearly 12 years, Staff Sgt. Jimmy Massey was a hard-core, some say gung-ho, Marine. For three years he trained fellow Marines in one of the most grueling indoctrination rituals in military life – Marine boot camp. The Iraq war changed Massey. The brutality, the sheer carnage of the U.S. invasion, touched his conscience and transformed him forever. He was honorably discharged with full severance last Dec. 31 and is now back in his hometown, Waynsville, N.C. When I talked with Massey last week, he expressed his remorse at the civilian loss of life in incidents in which he himself was involved. Q: You spent 12 years in the Marines. When were you sent to Iraq? A: I went to Kuwait around Jan. 17. I was in Iraq from the get-go. And I was involved in the initial invasion. Q: What does the public need to know about your experiences as a Marine? A: The cause of the Iraqi revolt against the American occupation. What they need to know is we killed a lot of innocent people. I think at first the Iraqis had the understanding that casualties are a part of war. But over the course of time, the occupation hurt the Iraqis. And I didn’t see any humanitarian support. Q: What experiences turned you against the war and made you leave the Marines? A: I was in charge of a platoon that consists of machine gunners and missile men. Our job was to go into certain areas of the towns and secure the roadways. There was this one particular incident – and there’s many more – the one that really pushed me over the edge. It involved a car with Iraqi civilians. From all the intelligence reports we were getting, the cars were loaded down with suicide bombs or material. That’s the rhetoric we received from intelligence. They came upon our checkpoint. We fired some warning shots. They didn’t slow down. So we lit them up. Q: Lit up? You mean you fired machine guns? A: Right. Every car that we lit up we were expecting ammunition to go off. But we never heard any. Well, this particular vehicle we didn’t destroy completely, and one gentleman looked up at me and said: "Why did you kill my brother? We didn’t do anything wrong." That hit me like a ton of bricks. Q: He spoke English? A: Oh, yeah. Q: Baghdad was being bombed. The civilians were trying to get out, right? A: Yes. They received pamphlets, propaganda we dropped on them. It said, "Just throw up your hands, lay down weapons." That’s what they were doing, but we were still lighting them up. They weren’t in uniform. We never found any weapons. Q: You got to see the bodies and casualties? A: Yeah, firsthand. I helped throw them in a ditch. Q: Over what period did all this take place? A: During the invasion of Baghdad. ‘We lit him up pretty good’ Q: How many times were you involved in checkpoint "light-ups"? A: Five times. There was [the city of] Rekha. The gentleman was driving a stolen work utility van. He didn’t stop. With us being trigger happy, we didn’t really give this guy much of a chance. We lit him up pretty good. Then we inspected the back of the van. We found nothing. No explosives. Q: The reports said the cars were loaded with explosives. In all the incidents did you find that to be the case? A: Never. Not once. There were no secondary explosions. As a matter of fact, we lit up a rally after we heard a stray gunshot. Q: A demonstration? Where? A: On the outskirts of Baghdad. Near a military compound. There were demonstrators at the end of the street. They were young and they had no weapons. And when we rolled onto the scene, there was already a tank that was parked on the side of the road. If the Iraqis wanted to do something, they could have blown up the tank. But they didn’t. They were only holding a demonstration. Down at the end of the road, we saw some RPGs (rocket-propelled grenades) lined up against the wall. That put us at ease because we thought: "Wow, if they were going to blow us up, they would have done it." Q: Were the protest signs in English or Arabic? A: Both. Q: Who gave the order to wipe the demonstrators out? A: Higher command. We were told to be on the lookout for the civilians because a lot of the Fedayeen and the Republican Guards had tossed away uniforms and put on civilian clothes and were mounting terrorist attacks on American soldiers. The intelligence reports that were given to us were basically known by every member of the chain of command. The rank structure that was implemented in Iraq by the chain of command was evident to every Marine in Iraq. The order to shoot the demonstrators, I believe, came from senior government officials, including intelligence communities within the military and the U.S. government. Q: What kind of firepower was employed? A: M-16s, 50-cal. machine guns. Q: You fired into six or ten kids? Were they all taken out? A: Oh, yeah. Well, I had a "mercy" on one guy. When we rolled up, he was hiding behind a concrete pillar. I saw him and raised my weapon up, and he put up his hands. He ran off. I told everybody, "Don’t shoot." Half of his foot was trailing behind him. So he was running with half of his foot cut off. Q: After you lit up the demonstration, how long before the next incident? A: Probably about one or two hours. This is another thing, too. I am so glad I am talking with you, because I suppressed all of this. Q: Well, I appreciate you giving me the information, as hard as it must be to recall the painful details. A: That’s all right. It’s kind of therapy for me. Because it’s something that I had repressed for a long time. Q: And the incident? A: There was an incident with one of the cars. We shot an individual with his hands up. He got out of the car. He was badly shot. We lit him up. I don’t know who started shooting first. One of the Marines came running over to where we were and said: "You all just shot a guy with his hands up." Man, I forgot about this. Depleted uranium and cluster bombs Q: You mention machine guns. What can you tell me about cluster bombs, or depleted uranium? A: Depleted uranium. I know what it does. It’s basically like leaving plutonium rods around. I’m 32 years old. I have 80 percent of my lung capacity. I ache all the time. I don’t feel like a healthy 32-year-old. Q: Were you in the vicinity of of depleted uranium? A: Oh, yeah. It’s everywhere. DU is everywhere on the battlefield. If you hit a tank, there’s dust. Q: Did you breath any dust? A: Yeah. Q: And if DU is affecting you or our troops, it’s impacting Iraqi civilians. A: Oh, yeah. They got a big wasteland problem. Q: Do Marines have any precautions about dealing with DU? A: Not that I know of. Well, if a tank gets hit, crews are detained for a little while to make sure there are no signs or symptoms. American tanks have depleted uranium on the sides, and the projectiles have DU in them. If an enemy vehicle gets hit, the area gets contaminated. Dead rounds are in the ground. The civilian populace is just now starting to learn about it. Hell, I didn’t even know about DU until two years ago. You know how I found out about it? I read an article in Rolling Stone magazine. I just started inquiring about it, and I said "Holy s—!" Q: Cluster bombs are also controversial. U.N. commissions have called for a ban. Were you acquainted with cluster bombs? A: I had one of my Marines in my battalion who lost his leg from an ICBM. Q: What’s an ICBM? A: A multi-purpose cluster bomb. Q: What happened? A: He stepped on it. We didn’t get to training about clusters until about a month before I left. Q: What kind of training? A: They told us what they looked like, and not to step on them. Q: Were you in any areas where they were dropped? A: Oh, yeah. They were everywhere. Q: Dropped from the air? A: From the air as well as artillery. Q: Are they dropped far away from cities, or inside the cities? A: They are used everywhere. Now if you talked to a Marine artillery officer, he would give you the runaround, the politically correct answer. But for an average grunt, they’re everywhere. Q: Including inside the towns and cities? A: Yes, if you were going into a city, you knew there were going to be ICBMs. Q: Cluster bombs are anti-personnel weapons. They are not precise. They don’t injure buildings, or hurt tanks. Only people and living things. There are a lot of undetonated duds and they go off after the battles are over. A: Once the round leaves the tube, the cluster bomb has a mind of its own. There’s always human error. I’m going to tell you: The armed forces are in a tight spot over there. It’s starting to leak out about the civilian casualties that are taking place. The Iraqis know. I keep hearing reports from my Marine buddies inside that there were 200-something civilians killed in Fallujah. The military … read more »
Response:
"Michael" <muirh…@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:2hipd1FdeuuqU1@uni-berlin.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In <news:r8GdnTilNvvYsCndRVn-hA@gbronline.com>, > Rob Duncan said: > > "Michael" <muirh…@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message > > news:2himqiFd6t5jU1@uni-berlin.de… > >> In <news:_o-dnQVtcth6vSndRVn-jw@gbronline.com>, > >> Rob Duncan said: > >>> "Kath" <sendme.nos…@hotpop.com> wrote in message > >>> news:40b36a49$1_1@newspeer2.tds.net… > >>>> John Husvar wrote: > >>>>> I’m in no way likely ever to be accused of being a capital "L" > >>>>> Liberal — maybe a small "l" libertarian. (when I’m not just being > >>>>> a libertine) > >>>> I agree with much of what you said, but consider that soldiers are > >>>> apparently TRAINED to do some of what these soldiers did … and > >>>> from many accounts, were NOT trained in the requirements of the > >>>> Geneva Conventions or even the military’s own code of conduct. > >>> Your ignorance is astounding, but it pales in comparison in your > >>> eagerness to display it. Soldiers are trained in the Geneva > >>> convention as well as the UCMJ. > >> You have to wonder about how strictly that requirem,ent is being > >> followed, > > No. You dont. I have MORE than just a passing familiarity with our > > military. These things are taught. Theres no excuse for anyone to > > fall back on, other than to say all involved were fucking pieces of > > shit who need to go to prison. I can just imagine what their fellow > > soldiers would like to do to them. > I bet some of them would like to get creatively sadistic on their asses and > show them what it’s like to be on the other end… > But I can assure you there are also a lot who’d like to buy them a drink. > >> when the general in charge of the investigation says that the > >> soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison were operating under "failure of > >> leadership, lack of discipline, no training whatsoever and no > >> supervision." > >> ((U)) > >> M > > Theres no excuse. What they did was outside of military protocols. > > Rob > True, but irrelevant. > http://wvgazette.com/section/Editorials/200405218 > ((U)) > M
Somethings up with my computer. I cant download this page either. Grrr…. Rob
Response:
Rob Duncan wrote: >>Unfortunately, you are incorrect. A number of soldiers are >>reporting that they had NOT been trained in the Geneva Conventions. >>Now, they may be lying, but we don’t know that. So far, it’s >>uncontroverted. > Unfortunately, you are incorrect. I know for a fact that they were taught > the Geneva Convention, as well as the UCMJ. Theres no arguing the poing. > After what youve seen these idiots behavior is like… you then think lying > is beneath them? Get a grip. These are dirtbags doing everything they can > to avoid proper punishment. These were scum. Its not uncontroverted. They > went through bootcamp. They know the rules just fine. Ask any soldier.
There’s no way that you could know, Rob, unless you were there when each and every one of those people was trained, and I’m 99.99% certain that you were not. I have no doubt about what the rules are, but equally, I have no doubt that this administration is prone to bending the rules. For instance, Rumsfeld and others have said categorically that the Geneva Conventions apply to all prisoners in Iraq. However, a memo signed by General Karpinski has surfaced which says specifically that some prisoners of "significant intelligence value" could be isolated and treated differently than prisoners of war or ordinary criminals. Further, this administration has spoken with disdain of the Conventions [Rumsfeld] and called them "quaint" and "obsolete" ["In my judgment, this new paradigm renders obsolete Geneva's strict limitations on questioning of enemy prisoners and renders quaint some of its provisions" requiring access to the commissary and other privileges." Alberto Gonzales] Finally, soldiers were specifically trained to violate the Conventions. http://tinyurl.com/2pu28 Given that atmosphere, there’s a great probability that those soldiers, no matter how despicable their behaviors, were telling the truth. After all, they told the truth about what they did. KKT
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Michael wrote: >>>I agree with much of what you said, but consider that soldiers are >>>apparently TRAINED to do some of what these soldiers did … and >>>from many accounts, were NOT trained in the requirements of the >>>Geneva Conventions or even the military’s own code of conduct. >>Your ignorance is astounding, but it pales in comparison in your >>eagerness to display it. Soldiers are trained in the Geneva >>convention as well as the UCMJ. > You have to wonder about how strictly that requirem,ent is being followed, > when the general in charge of the investigation says that the soldiers at > Abu Ghraib prison were operating under "failure of leadership, lack of > discipline, no training whatsoever and no supervision." > ((U)) > M
There have been soldiers interviewed on American TV [I saw them] who said that they had not received such training. Those people were NOT involved in the recent prison abuses, but were dismissed for inappropriate behavior in another matter. Note this report: "In two years with the Reserves, she says, she never heard the words "Geneva Conventions," nor did she receive more than a few days of training on how to guard enemy prisoners of war." [This woman was not involved in misconduct]. http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5039248/site/newsweek/ And this one: ""They didn’t train their troops charged with looking after Iraqi prisoners to uphold these conventions,
Filed under: Protest Demonstration
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