Activism Change

Archbigot Carey Cowers Into Confernce Avoiding Equal Rights Protesters,

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip My religious affiliation is irrelevant to the status of the  Church of England,  an official national church, supported by tax dollars and with an archbigot, George Carey,  who has a vote in the House of Lords.  The issue is one of public policy, not personal beliefs. As a side note, the US wisely disassociated itself with all such official religions nonsense over two hundred years ago, although religious political extremists like Pat Robertson, Jerry Fallwell and James Dobson  are trying to sabotage that separation.   In fact, the C of E is not supported by tax dollars.  

Check your facts do some historical research and get back to us. The Church of England is indeed subsidized by the Britsh government.  It’s extensive holdings were  granted to the church by the crown. Taxes are still used support various church projects.  You can pretend the crown and the government are somehow finacially independant of the church but the rest of us know that’s rubbish. Its income comes from properties that make up its endowment (held in a trust by the Church Commissioners) and from the donations of members and visitors.  In the mid-1980s, the ratio of income between endowment and donations was about 50-50. And, in fact, it is not only Archbishop Carey who sits in the Lords.  The

So, who said he was alone? Lords Spiritual comprise the Abps of Canterbury and York, and the bishops of the traditional royal cities — London, Durham and Winchester — as well as the 21 most senior diocesan bishops of the Church.  This of course numbers 26 Lords Spiritual.

That gives Carey and his cronies 26 votes by yoru count.   Meanwhile, the Lords Temporal comprise the following:  about 800 Hereditary Peers, 19 Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (sometimes called the Law Lords), and about 330 Life Peers.  This of course numbers about 1150 Lords Temporal.  (My numbers come from a 1982 textbook for "A" level students in British Constitution and British Government and Politics.   They have probably changed in the past 15 years … but not significantly, I am sure.) How much *political* or *public policy* influence does Abp Carey have? On any issue of real importance, that is?  About as much as your average flea.  On other issues, well, those with real influence will boast of his support, or ignore his opposition, as they see fit.

Depending on who shows up to vote in the house of Lords,  those 26 votes can be significant. Add them to  xtian suck ups who follow  the archbigot on cibvil rights — matters he labels  as moral issues– and his influence shouldn’t be underestamated.   Your religious affiliation *is* relevant to (1) your knowledge of your subject (not much), and

My religios affiliation is irrelevant. And frankly,  my knowledge has trumped your efforts to obfuscate the connection between the state and the chuirch in Britain.   (2) your reason for having an opinion on this It’s still irrelavant.   subject that most people in the world would find marginal at best (simply anti-British, perhaps?).

Spare me the nonsense. You haven’t provided any reason why my religous   affiliation  would be relevant to this discusssion. Maybe you could provide some evidnce for your  unsubstanciated claim that I am anti-Brirtish.   BTW, being American myself I agree with keeping the state out of the churches.  But in the course of living in England for four years, I learned that the relationship between the English nation and the English church is far more complex than a 25-50 line Usenet post can handle.   Including this one.

Do try to enlighten us. We would all enjoy laughing at your pretense again in the near future. Denial isn’t just a river in Egypt.

Response:

<snip My religious affiliation is irrelevant to the status of the  Church of England,  an official national church, supported by tax dollars and with an archbigot, George Carey,  who has a vote in the House of Lords.  The issue is one of public policy, not personal beliefs. As a side note, the US wisely disassociated itself with all such official religions nonsense over two hundred years ago, although religious political extremists like Pat Robertson, Jerry Fallwell and James Dobson  are trying to sabotage that separation.  

In fact, the C of E is not supported by tax dollars.  Its income comes from properties that make up its endowment (held in a trust by the Church Commissioners) and from the donations of members and visitors.  In the mid-1980s, the ratio of income between endowment and donations was about 50-50. And, in fact, it is not only Archbishop Carey who sits in the Lords.  The Lords Spiritual comprise the Abps of Canterbury and York, and the bishops of the traditional royal cities — London, Durham and Winchester — as well as the 21 most senior diocesan bishops of the Church.  This of course numbers 26 Lords Spiritual. Meanwhile, the Lords Temporal comprise the following:  about 800 Hereditary Peers, 19 Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (sometimes called the Law Lords), and about 330 Life Peers.  This of course numbers about 1150 Lords Temporal.  (My numbers come from a 1982 textbook for "A" level students in British Constitution and British Government and Politics.   They have probably changed in the past 15 years … but not significantly, I am sure.) How much *political* or *public policy* influence does Abp Carey have? On any issue of real importance, that is?  About as much as your average flea.  On other issues, well, those with real influence will boast of his support, or ignore his opposition, as they see fit. Your religious affiliation *is* relevant to (1) your knowledge of your subject (not much), and (2) your reason for having an opinion on this subject that most people in the world would find marginal at best (simply anti-British, perhaps?). BTW, being American myself I agree with keeping the state out of the churches.  But in the course of living in England for four years, I learned that the relationship between the English nation and the English church is far more complex than a 25-50 line Usenet post can handle.   Including this one. — (Mr) Dana Netherton, Episcopalian Juno address is a spam dump.  To reply by e-mail, send to: "netherto" ( "cais" ) "com", where "(" = at, and ")" = dot.

Response:

I think the Brits should overthrow their reactionary state church, the aristocracy, the royal parasites and cut off all  their heads including Carey’s.  

I assume youre anglican.. If you’re so sick of it then why not convert? Brent "They say that love often passes in a second and you can never catch it up. So I’m holding onto you as though eternity beckoned though it’s clear that the match is rough."-Pete Townshend

Response:

I think the Brits should overthrow their reactionary state church, the aristocracy, the royal parasites and cut off all  their heads including Carey’s.   I assume youre anglican.. If you’re so sick of it then why not convert?

My religious affiliation is irrelevant to the status of the  Church of England,  an official national church, supported by tax dollars and with an archbigot, George Carey,  who has a vote in the House of Lords.  The issue is one of public policy, not personal beliefs. As a side note, the US wisely disassociated itself with all such official religions nonsense over two hundred years ago, although religious political extremists like Pat Robertson, Jerry Fallwell and James Dobson  are trying to sabotage that separation.  

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could that be because Integrity is lame, does nothing and never will to challenge the pious pretenses of the bigoted staus quo?   Integrity has done an enormous amount for gay rights, simply by being gay, forthright AND good Anglicans.  The Anglican Pages of Louie Crew are accessed by a whole lot of Anglicans who have NO interest in gay rights, and they get a gay rights message while seeking other information.  Does a lot more good than OutRage!, which just makes people think that gay Anglicans don’t do anything but throw tantrums and cast blame.

Your charcterization of Outrage is ignorant, libelous or perhaps both. The repeal of age of unequal age of consent  laws –It passed overwhelmingly in the House of Commons but was blocked by Tory heritary peers  in the House of Lords, wi6th support from Carey– is the result of years of work by OUTRAGE. OUTRAGE is NOT an Anglican group. It is a civil rights advocacy and  direct action group.  It’s concern with the Church of England is entirely focused with that church’s part in the Government. Unlike the Episcopal church in the USA,  The Church of England is tax supported and the head of the church, Archbigot Carey, has a vote in parliament.

Response:

Thank you for saying that.  As said before, I have sympathy with groups like Integrity, but not groups like OutRage! I personally have never heard of either group to be honest. I just heard the story of the protesters from AOL news.

Integrity is a pro-gay rights group in the United States headed by Louie Crew in Newark (he’s real close with Bishop Spong).  I often disagree with them, but their tactics are well within the context Christian decency.

Response:

Could that be because Integrity is lame, does nothing and never will to challenge the pious pretenses of the bigoted staus quo?  

Integrity has done an enormous amount for gay rights, simply by being gay, forthright AND good Anglicans.  The Anglican Pages of Louie Crew are accessed by a whole lot of Anglicans who have NO interest in gay rights, and they get a gay rights message while seeking other information.  Does a lot more good than OutRage!, which just makes people think that gay Anglicans don’t do anything but throw tantrums and cast blame.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now would they be peacefully protesting in the same way that the gay and lesbian group was at Carey’s Easter Sermon(I think it was Easter) when they stormed the pulpit(or whatever it’s called) and started telling people their agenda before being removed by guards? Thank you for saying that.  As said before, I have sympathy with groups like Integrity, but not groups like OutRage!

Could that be because Integrity is lame, does nothing and never will to challenge the pious pretenses of the bigoted staus quo?   George Carey is nothing but a a homphobe in a fancy dress. Who needs a state church, especially one lead by such a pretentious dolt? I think the Brits should overthrow their reactionary state church, the aristocracy, the royal parasites and cut off all  their heads including Carey’s.  

Response:

Now would they be peacefully protesting in the same way that the gay and lesbian group was at Carey’s Easter Sermon(I think it was Easter) when they stormed the pulpit(or whatever it’s called) and started telling people their agenda before being removed by guards?

Thank you for saying that.  As said before, I have sympathy with groups like Integrity, but not groups like OutRage!

Response:

Thank you for saying that.  As said before, I have sympathy with groups like Integrity, but not groups like OutRage!

I personally have never heard of either group to be honest. I just heard the story of the protesters from AOL news. Brent "They say that love often passes in a second and you can never catch it up. So I’m holding onto you as though eternity beckoned though it’s clear that the match is rough."-Pete Townshend

Response:

to avoid lesbian and gay rights protesters from OutRage! who were peacefully picketing the front entrance.

Now would they be peacefully protesting in the same way that the gay and lesbian group was at Carey’s Easter Sermon(I think it was Easter) when they stormed the pulpit(or whatever it’s called) and started telling people their agenda before being removed by guards? Brent "They say that love often passes in a second and you can never catch it up. So I’m holding onto you as though eternity beckoned though it’s clear that the match is rough."-Pete Townshend

Response:

        The Archbishop of Canterbury has been accused of cowardice after he was smuggled by minders this morning (Monday, 20th July) into the opening session of the Lambeth Conference at the University of Kent by the back door, to avoid lesbian and gay rights protesters from OutRage! who were peacefully picketing the front entrance.  "Carey was too cowardly to face us", said Marina Cronin of OutRage!.         Immediately after he finished delivering his presidential address, Dr. Carey was hurriedly bundled out of a side fire exit, to escape the OutRage! protesters, who were waiting to challenge him over his opposition to an equal age of consent. They held placards saying:  "Carey opposes an equal age of consent".         The OutRage! protest  –against Dr. Carey’s support for continued legal discrimination against lesbians and gay men– was warmly received by many of the 800 delegates arriving at the conference hall. "Apart from homophobic abuse from two bishops who supported the church’s opposition to homosexual human rights, a gratifyingly large number of delegates gave us a warm reception", said Marina Cronin. "We were greeted with smiles, handshakes, and words of thanks and encouragement. Bishops Harries, Selby and Spong came over and expressed their support", said Cronin.         Last month, the Archbishop spoke out against the equalisation of the age of consent, and vowed to use his influence to reinstate a discriminatory age of 18 for gay men when the issue is debated in the House of Lords this Wednesday (22nd July).         "By opposing an equal age of consent, Dr. Carey is supporting a discriminatory law that allows 16 and 17 year old gay men to be arrested, dragged to court and jailed for up to two years for consenting homosexual relationships.  His attitude is blatant persecution", said Ray Harvey-Amer of OutRage!.         "We fear that Dr. Carey and the Bishops who sit in the Lords may succeed in overturning the Commons’ vote in favour of equality at 16."         The age of consent is not the only issue where Dr. Carey endorses discrimination against homosexual men and women. —         "The Archbishop is opposed to lesbian and gay partners being granted legal rights, such as recognition as next-of-kin.         "As President of the Church of England Children’s Society, Dr. Carey endorses its policy of refusing to allov homosexual couples to foster children", said Harvey-Amer. FURTHER INFORMATION:    Peter Tatchell  0171-403 1790 PHOTOS OF PROTEST:      Rob Todd                0467-42.02.83         Simon Bebbington (ISF reporter) 0378-30.76.36 A copy of this press release, together with a picture of the demonstration, is on the OutRage! web site at:         http://www.OutRage.cygnet.co.uk/lamb98.htm

Response:

Filed under: Protest Demonstration

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