– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The GLUE movement has got well off the ground on grassroots level (i.e. on the street) and the time has come to publicise its aims, as well as to actively combat the lies disseminated by the MEDICAL-INDUSTRIAL-STATE COMPLEX (MISC). 1. The purpose of sniffing glue is to sniff glue! This is not to say that there are no other benefits to the use of GLUE (there are, eg. enhancement of the intellect, prevention of disease, and, most importantly, UNLOCKING the BARRIERS between our MINDS, allowing STUPENDOUS FEATS of TELEPATHY, TELEKINESES, etc.), but rather to bear in mind that our primary purpose remains ACTIVE CONFRONTATION of the PROPAGANDA of the MISC. 2. The movement must remain as inclusive as possible. This is not to say that we must welcome non-sniffers, or encourage scum such as Rat Man BOWDITCH or TODD GASTALDO, but no attempts to gentrify the movement or to ‘keep it in the gutter’ should be made. 3.  Potential sniffers outside the UK should be encouraged to start their own chapters. 4. On pseudo-skepticism and pseudo-activism: It is an unfortunate fact that some people in the alternative world are there because they cannot break into the MISC. The premier example is probably TODDY. I have likened him to a small puppy begging at the HEAVILY LADEN table at which the MISC sups.  Also ignore his fleas(people jumping up and down in newsgroups defending him – they are below our contempt). On pseudo-skeptics like BOWDITCH no more need be said. Yours in Glue Willy Wonka

If ever there was a reason to not sniff glue, this is it. r — "I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed, or numbered…My life is my own." "I am not a number.  I am a free man." No. 6

Response:

‘e probably spammed all of the ALTS, MISC, and the like. SAWB

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The GLUE movement has got well off the ground on grassroots level (i.e. on the street) and the time has come to publicise its aims, as well as to actively combat the lies disseminated by the MEDICAL-INDUSTRIAL-STATE COMPLEX (MISC). 1. The purpose of sniffing glue is to sniff glue! This is not to say that there are no other benefits to the use of GLUE (there are, eg. enhancement of the intellect, prevention of disease, and, most importantly, UNLOCKING the BARRIERS between our MINDS, allowing STUPENDOUS FEATS of TELEPATHY, TELEKINESES, etc.), but rather to bear in mind that our primary purpose remains ACTIVE CONFRONTATION of the PROPAGANDA of the MISC. 2. The movement must remain as inclusive as possible. This is not to say that we must welcome non-sniffers, or encourage scum such as Rat Man BOWDITCH or TODD GASTALDO, but no attempts to gentrify the movement or to ‘keep it in the gutter’ should be made. 3.  Potential sniffers outside the UK should be encouraged to start their own chapters. 4. On pseudo-skepticism and pseudo-activism: It is an unfortunate fact that some people in the alternative world are there because they cannot break into the MISC. The premier example is probably TODDY. I have likened him to a small puppy begging at the HEAVILY LADEN table at which the MISC sups.  Also ignore his fleas(people jumping up and down in newsgroups defending him – they are below our contempt). On pseudo-skeptics like BOWDITCH no more need be said. Yours in Glue Willy Wonka — Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server – http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Response:

The GLUE movement has got well off the ground on grassroots level (i.e. on the street) and the time has come to publicise its aims, as well as to actively combat the lies disseminated by the MEDICAL-INDUSTRIAL-STATE COMPLEX (MISC). 1. The purpose of sniffing glue is to sniff glue! This is not to say that there are no other benefits to the use of GLUE (there are, eg. enhancement of the intellect, prevention of disease, and, most importantly, UNLOCKING the BARRIERS between our MINDS, allowing STUPENDOUS FEATS of TELEPATHY, TELEKINESES, etc.), but rather to bear in mind that our primary purpose remains ACTIVE CONFRONTATION of the PROPAGANDA of the MISC. 2. The movement must remain as inclusive as possible. This is not to say that we must welcome non-sniffers, or encourage scum such as Rat Man BOWDITCH or TODD GASTALDO, but no attempts to gentrify the movement or to ‘keep it in the gutter’ should be made. 3.  Potential sniffers outside the UK should be encouraged to start their own chapters. 4. On pseudo-skepticism and pseudo-activism: It is an unfortunate fact that some people in the alternative world are there because they cannot break into the MISC. The premier example is probably TODDY. I have likened him to a small puppy begging at the HEAVILY LADEN table at which the MISC sups.  Also ignore his fleas(people jumping up and down in newsgroups defending him – they are below our contempt). On pseudo-skeptics like BOWDITCH no more need be said. Yours in Glue Willy Wonka — Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server – http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Response:

Propaganda being the key word here. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –         After a six month hiatus,  Positive Propaganda is back!  Positive Propaganda is a directory of indepedent web sites with particular interests in art,  activism and information warfare.  In addition to new site reviews,  Positive now has an index by subject for over a year of web site reviews. http://www.honeylocust.com/positive/ Before you buy.

Response:

        After a six month hiatus,  Positive Propaganda is back!  Positive Propaganda is a directory of indepedent web sites with particular interests in art,  activism and information warfare.  In addition to new site reviews,  Positive now has an index by subject for over a year of web site reviews. http://www.honeylocust.com/positive/ Before you buy.

Response:

: :       Anyone else convinced that the IHR crowd is not interested in open, : rational debate? : Of course.  I have never seen anyone actually defend a Nazi position on the net.  Gannon, from what I’ve seen, simply posts epistles.  It’s difficult to respond to them because they are long and tedious to read. They are also time-consuming to refute because the references are obscure.  On the rare occassions when I’ve seen Nazis claim to quote a references that is readily available in the library, a quick check revealed that those references were either misquoted, misinterpreted, or non-existent. I support Nazi’s right to free speech, but it forces me to exercise mine. Excuse the bandwidth. -Cristina Yu

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Cristina Ungstad Yu writes: :Raskolnikov writes: : :   Anyone else convinced that the IHR crowd is not interested in open, : rational debate? : Of course.  I have never seen anyone actually defend a Nazi position on the net.  Gannon, from what I’ve seen, simply posts epistles.  It’s difficult to respond to them because they are long and tedious to read. They are also time-consuming to refute because the references are obscure.  On the rare occassions when I’ve seen Nazis claim to quote a references that is readily available in the library, a quick check revealed that those references were either misquoted, misinterpreted, or non-existent. I support Nazi’s right to free speech, but it forces me to exercise mine. Excuse the bandwidth.

Seriously, what is there for them to refute?  I mean, there is a recent posting about the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, but I’m sure the IHR crowd knows what really happened-     1.  The Jews of Poland were originally put into ghettos both to         protect them from the Catholic population as well as to provide         a place where they could freely practice their religion without         outside interference or influence.     2.  Because of the advancing Russian army, the Germans decided to         protect the Jews by moving them to safer locations.  Take         one look at the fortications around these industrial settlements,         such as Auschwitz, and there is no reason to believe differently.     3.  Hot-headed Jewish youth (I mean, the uprising leader was only         about 23 years old), who didn’t want to see their power base         eroded, spread rumors that these industrial parks were         somehow death camps, and as a result, many Jews who could’ve         left Warsaw for a better life, refused to leave or were         forced to stay behind.     4.  The Germans used normal police procedures in attempting to         quell the uncalled for and unsubstantiated reasons for the         resistance. And if anybody believes this, there’s this bridge I currently own that I need to sell.  Take one look at the traffic volume, and you’ll see that just for a minimum investment, you’ll collect enough tolls in a month to pay the entire purchase price. — Stan Krieger                 All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even UNIX System Laboratories     if related to my employment, are my own. Summit, NJ

Response:

        Gannon and crew, Irving, the IHR, etc. all claim that no one is willing to debate with them, that the facts are readily available, and all one must do is present them and the truth will come out.         They also claim that a Zionist/jewish conspiracy prevents the facts from getting out and their case from being heard.  BAsically, they want us to believe that they are in favor of open debate, and individuals such as myself are interested in stifling it.           One statement by David Irving, the Holocaust denier’s premier pseudoscholar, doesn’t really fit in with this idea.         See below. From _The Journal of Historical Review_, Vol. 13, Number 2 (Mar./Apr. 1993):    To which I said, "How do you know?  The papers that I have donated to the federal archives in Germany are subject to an embargo by me which prevents anybody else from seeing them, and nobody HAS seen them, except me and the archive [officials] in Germany.  So how do you know that what I have is what you lot have known all along?"  An interesting point!

        David Irving admits that he is keeping information from public view, and that he is hiding the facts from others, apparently for the sake of some stupid vendetta.           The word ‘hypocrite’ leaps to mind…..         Anyone else convinced that the IHR crowd is not interested in open, rational debate? Brian Harmon         "The world is on its elbows and knees; Miami University        It has forgotten the message and worships Ohio 45056                      the creeds!" WHUT R U LOOKIN AT?                     — Matt Johnson

Response:

Some of the SS men found it difficult to witness the atrocities committed by Gannon’s ideological fathers:

Eichmann seems to have been one of those fellows who couldn’t deal with such things, as he notes during his interrogation in Jerusalem: Archive/File: eichmann eichmann.003 XRef: index auschwitz, index eichmann Last-modified: 1993/06/18     Notes: Captain Avner W.  Less was the Israeli police officer who interrogated Adolf Eichmann, prior to his trial and subsequent conviction in Jerusalem. Comments, designated by brackets [], are those of the editor, Jochen von Lang. "(Request archive filename)" refers to files of potential interest to readers of this document which may be obtained from as the text of the message. Typos are mine, not the author’s. ~~~ LESS: You were also in Auschwitz? EICHMANN: I kept getting orders to visit Auschwitz. Mu"ller told me they were expanding the plant, and he wanted me to take a look and report back to him. Herr Hauptmann, those fellows were very cruel, describing those things as gruesomely as possible to a man accustomed to desk work, putting it to him as abruptly as possible. Naturally, they laughed their heads off when my nerves broke down and I couldn’t keep up my military dignity – that’s what they called it – the way they did. Ho"ss told me Himmler had been there and taken a good look at everything. He told me the Reichsfu"hrer himself had gone all weak in the knees. He meant that, meant that, in a disparaging sense, because Ho"ss himself was thoroughly hardened. That was the day when Himmler, after seeing that – undoubtedly to screw up his own courage and hide his weakness from his concentration-camp men – told Ho"ss that those were battles the coming generation wouldn’t have to fight. When I visited the installation, Ho"ss send for an all-terrain car. We drove to a certain place – I don’t know my way around Auschwitz. I never got any further than the command post at the main entrance. Had no desire to. As we were driving, I saw some big buildings. Almost like factories. Enormous chimneys. Ho"ss says to me: "Working to capacity! Ten thousand!" A job was under way. They were separating the able-bodied from the ones who were supposedly unfit for work. I didn’t watch the gassing. I couldn’t. I’d have probably keeled over. And I thought: Whew, I’ve got it over with again. But then he drives me to a big trench. It was very big, I can’t say exactly how big, maybe a hundred meters long, maybe a hundred and fifty or a hundred and eighty. And there was an enormous grating, an iron grating. And corpses were burning on it. Then I got sick to my stomach. Sick to my stomach. (von Lang, 83-84) … LESS: What were the duties of Bureau IV B4 in relation to Auschwitz? EICHMANN: Strictly speaking, none, Herr Hauptmann, only when the man in charge of these things at Administration and Supply Headquarters, usually a certain Liebehenschel, was consulted about the destination of the shipments from one place or another ordered by the Reichsfu"hrer. This was a purely technical question of scheduling and routing. LESS: What does "special treatment" mean, and who was subjected to it? EICHMANN: Special treatment was killing. Who thought up the term – I don’t know. Must have been Himmler, who else could it have been – but then, I have no proof, maybe Heydrich thought it up after Go"ring gave him his authorization. But I really don’t know. I’m just trying to puzzle it out. LESS: But you knew special treatment meant killing? EICHMANN: Everybody knew that, yes, Herr Hauptmann, everybody knew. When a shipment was marked "for special treatment," they decided at the point of arrival who was fit for labor and who wasn’t. LESS: In other words, special treatment was given to those who were declared unfit for labor? EICHMANN: By the doctor, yes. But there were also certain groups that Himmler put down for "priority accommodation." (Request auschwitz mengele.josef) LESS: Who drew up the lists of Jews to be sent to Auschwitz and given special treatment? EICHMANN: That must have been the evacuating authority. That’s my guess. Because IV B4 didn’t evacuate; it only transported. LESS: Did you receive copies of the lists? EICHMANN: No, never a list. LESS: You only set up shipments? EICHMANN: Set up shipments? No, Herr Hauptmann, only the schedules for the shipments. The shipments themselves were set up by the evacuating authority. LESS: Was special treatment given in other places besides Auschwitz? EICHMANN: Yes. In the Government General there was Kulm and there was Treblinka. No shipment was ever run to Kiev or Lemberg; in those places, people were shot. LESS: Who drew up the lists of Jews to be deported for special treatment? EICHMANN: There again, Herr Hauptmann, it was always the evacuating authority. LESS: Was it the duty of Ho"ss, the Auschwitz camp commander, to record the number of Jews sent to Auschwitz? EICHMANN: I don’t know that, Herr Hauptmann. I am not informed about his official duties, and if I had asked him I don’t believe he would have given me truthful answers. Those Auschwitz people always kept you at a distance – Ho"ss, too, at first – because they didn’t want anyone to see their cards, and I was from a different outfit. They had the death’s-head on their collar patch, and I didn’t have naything. LESS: How many Jews were gassed and killed at Auschwitz? EICHMANN: Herr Hauptmann, I’ve read, and Ho"ss is supposed to have said, that he killed four million Jews. Up to now, I’ve thought that figure exaggerated. But if we’re going to talk about figures, whether it’s one million or four million or a hundred amounts to the same thing in principle. In these last fifteen years, I’ve done some figuring myself. At the end of the war, I spoke to my officers of five million. I saw that figure as a kind of clound in my mind’s eye. In that brief, hmm, how shall I put it? – apocalyptic speech, or whatever you chose to call it, I wasn’t looking for exact figures. I don’t remember whether the Jewish Year Book published at that time gave the figure of ten million Jews for Europe, or whether that figure covered the German-occupied Russian territories. In any case, I tried to work out a basis to figure on. I’ve read that a few months after the war the Allies reckoned that 2.4 million Jews were still in existence. I read that somewhere. Emigration from Austria, Germany, the U.S.S.R. – I said to myself, let’s say that 1.2 million Jews emigrated. Then comes natural diminuition. I’m no statistician. I just figured that out for myself. So on that basis I said to myself: Yes, one way or another, about six million Jews must have been killed. Whether I was right or not, I don’t know, Herr Hauptmann. (von Lang, 108-110)                              Work Cited von Lang, Jochen, ed., in collaboration with Claus Sibyll. Eichmann Interrogated: Transcripts from the Archives of the Israeli Police. Translated from the German by Avner W. Less. New York: Farrar, Straus & Giroux, 1983.                                 =30= Isn’t it strange that Irving didn’t mention Eichmann’s mention of the gassings in his "memoirs," while the subject came up again and again during his interrogation by Less? That’s typical of Irving’s scholastic honesty, of course, as we’ve already seen (request irving irving.07 from disproves your thesis, knowing full well that folks like Gannon don’t want the truth anyway. Followups redirected to alt.revisionism — The Old Frog’s Almanac – A Salute to That Old Frog Hisse’f, Ryugen Fisher                    Ladysmith, British Columbia, CANADA "Don’t say that you love me…just tell me that you want me." [Fleetwood Mac]

Response:

Some of the SS men found it difficult to witness the atrocities committed by Gannon’s ideological fathers: Testimony of SS private Boeck: (Extracted from "Der Auschwitz Prozess", by Hermann Langbein, Vol. I, quoted in "Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers – J.C Pressac, the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p. 181). Q: were you present at a gassing operation one day? A: Yes, it was one evening. I accompanied the driver Hoeblinger. A    transport had arrived from Holland and the prisoners had to    jump from the wagons. They were well-off Jews. There were    women with Persian furs. They arrived by express train. The    trucks were already there, with wooden steps before them, and    the people climbed aboard. Then they all started off. In the    place Birkenau once stood, there was only a long farmhouse    (Bunker 2) and beside it four or five big huts. Inside, the    people were standing on clothes which were building up on    the floor. The block leader and the sergeant, carrying a cane,    were there. Hoblinger said to me ‘lets go over there now’. There    was a sign ‘to disinfection’. He said ‘you see, they are bringing    children now’. They opened the door, threw the children in    and closed the door. There was a terrible cry. A member of the    SS climbed on the roof. The people went on crying for about    ten minutes. Then the prisoners opened the doors. Everything    was in disorder and contorted. Heat was given off. the bodies    were loaded on a rough wagon and taken to a ditch. The next    batch were already undressing in the huts. After that I didn’t    look at my wife for four weeks. -Danny Keren.

Response:

From _The Journal of Historical Review_, Vol. 13, Number 2 (Mar./Apr. 1993):

        here we go again…. [tons deleted]         I find it interestng that the IHR has not bothered to PUBLISH these supposedly suppressed diaries, since they have had no trouble publishing mounds of other stuff in the past…..         Most of the intro goes on and on about how Irving is censored and maltreated, and never even gets to the question at hand…..WHAT do Geobbel’s diaries say?         As a matter of fact, Irving spends the entire section talking about Geobbel’s diaries, how they are stored, the rigamarole he went through,         BUT HE NEVER TELLS US WHAT THE DIARIES SAY!             Ever get the idea someone’s dodging the issue? The Eichmann Memoirs    If you go to London at present, around the West End where I live you’ll find every parking meter, every lamppost, every traffic standard, every

        [more irrelevant crap deleted] of one meeting.  The next day he came back and gave me two bulky brown- paper parcels which turned out to contain the writings of Adolf Eichmann when he was in hiding in Argentina in the late 1950s.  Adolf Eichmann, of course, is now the man with whom the public most associates what they call the "Holocaust."    I hate that word.  It’s a word I don’t like using.  People say to me, "Mr. Irving, do you believe in the Holocaust?  Do you deny the Holocaust?" I say that I mistrust words with a capital letter.  They look like a trademark, don’t they?  Like Tylenol or something.  We don’t trust them; no matter how much advertising they put into Tylenol.  And so it is with that word "Holocaust."  You get the impression that it is a neatly packaged, highly promoted operation, and you don’t trust it.

        Gee, I sure don’t trust World War Two.  I mistrust words with capital letters too.  ’World War Two’ sounds like a creation of the INterNaTionaLCommiEliBerALWIMpDRaftDoDGINg Conspiracy to me.           C’mon, Irving, it’s not a matter of what people call it, that’s just a label.  The issue at stake is history, namely what did the Nazis do to the Jews?  You have yet to present one bit of evidence. [deleted]    Eichmann was born on the 19th of March, 1906.  As an SS Lieutenant Colonel (OBERSTURMBANNFUHRER), he was a specialist of the Jewish question. He looked upon the Jews with that same mixture of admiration and fear shared by most of the non-Jewish population around the world.

        nonsense.  Irving is making pop-sociology statements about how people view Jews (not Judaism) that are ridiculous.         Any half-baked Nazi with a racial view of the world that includes Jews as a race might ‘fear’ the Jews, and even say that he/she respected them, so why shoudl Eichmann’s view be any different?    He went to Palestine in 1937 after he was made an officer in the SS, and he actually  (we have his own record of this) entered into negotiations with leading Zionist underground fighters in Palestine, some of whom went on after the war to become members of the cabinet of Israeli leader David Ben-Gurion.  None of this was admitted by them at the time, but of course the records are there in the files of the SS in the National Archives in Washington.

        This has nothing to do with whether or not the Holocaust occurred.  It probably fits in with the earlier Nazi policy of deportation BEFORE extermination of Jews began.         [more speculation deleted] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    When this journalist telephoned me, I said, "I can’t tell you my own impression about these figures, but what I will tell you is that Adolf Eichmann himself said that [Auschwitz commandant] Rudolf Hoss’ figures were grossly inflated, and that Eichmann thought that Hoss was an outrageous liar."    "How do you know this?" he responded.    "Well," I said, "nobody else knows this, but as of two months ago I’ve gotten ahold of all of Adolf Eichmann’s private papers.  They were donated to me by a mutual friend in Argentina who didn’t know what to do with them, and he thought they were safest in my hands.  I’ve donated the originals to the German archives, and I’m busy researching through them now."  By that time I’d read three quarters of them, I think.    Well, the journalist flipped.  "You mean to say that you’ve had Adolf Eichmann’s diaries?" he asked.    "No," I replied, "not his diaries, just his memoirs and everything he dictated and his conversations, it’s all pure gold."    Then he asked, "Have you reached any new conclusions?"    I responded: "There’s one sentence that has given me cause for thought." (I’ll speak about this later on.)  And the journalist then wrote an article that appeared the following day in _The Observer_, and which was picked up that same day by the _Sunday Telegraph_ under the headline, "Historian Recants."  [See the _IHR Newsletter_, Feb. 1992, pp. 3-4.]

        And that sentence was….?         Once again, Irving stops right before he gets to the point.         NEVER does Irving mention this again, or even tell us what the hell he’s talking about.         Care to enlighten us, Dan? I did I said, "Well, Eichmann says he witnessed mass shootings in Russia, but Eichmann’s papers are quite plain: there’s no mention at all of gas chambers."  So I was able to get the message across.

        Ah.  My mistake. here it is.         So, giving in bit by bit, are we? Eichmann papers are not new.  We have always known about these papers. There is nothing in David Irving’s find that merits serious consideration."    To which I said, "How do you know?  The papers that I have donated to the federal archives in Germany are subject to an embargo by me which prevents anybody else from seeing them, and nobody HAS seen them, except me and the archive [officials] in Germany.  So how do you know that what I have is what you lot have known all along?"  An interesting point!

        Because mounds of evidence from other sources already confirms the massacres in Russia and other places.  I’d heard of Babi Yar long before you stopped denying it….. [More deleted]         ..where Irving talks about some damage control that he never elucidates or talks about at all.    Martin Gilbert, my deadly rival and enemy, the Churchill biographer in Britain, said, "For many years Mr. Irving has denied these facts about the Holocaust and now he makes a virtue of finding them."    But I didn’t say the first, and I didn’t say the second.  What I do say now is: can we analyze these papers, these transcripts, which are disorganized and not indexed, and in rather an untidy mess — can we analyze them in some way, and ask ourselves why it is that they were swept under the carpet in 1985, and why people were so anxious that the press should pay no attention to the papers that had been given to me in Argentina in 1991?

        That’s not the point, David.  Why do you NOW assert the massacres happened, when before you denied them? Eichmann on the Holocaust

        [more deleted]    Well, here are some of the contents.  First of all, Adolf Eichmann is quite plain throughout these papers that the word ENDLOSUNG, or "final solution," meant only one thing to him, and that was Madagascar.  When he addressed his mind to the "final solution of the Jewish problem" in the late 1930s and early 1940s, it was quite plain to him that it was only a plan to sweep all the Jews of Europe aboard boats and transport them lock, stock and barrel down to Madagascar, where they would be on an island where they couldn’t bother any of their neighbors and where none of their neighbors could bother them.  I’ve always said and I say it here again — even though I risk making a few enemies — that I think that would have been an ideal solution to a perennial world tragedy.

        I see. So if the Nazis had just shipped off all those DAMN JEWS none of this ever would of happened, eh? [unsupported theory about Zionism deleted] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    Now, that’s not justification.  One crime doesn’t justify another crime, that’s plain.  But this is in the memoirs.  He also says, "Besides, we had by this time already learned of the Jews’ plans for Germany."  He mentions explicitly the book by Theodore Kaufman, _Germany Must Perish_.  This is most interesting, because in the Goebbels diaries of August 1941 (which have also not yet been published), Goebbels also mentions Kaufman’s book as justification.    This book, published in the United States by a deranged American Jew, presents a crazy plan for liquidating millions of Germans after the war. It was published in August 1941, and is referred to by Goebbels a few weeks before he introduced the plan for Jews to wear a yellow star.  You can see a logical sequence of events, and Eichmann refers to this book as being one reason why, in his own mind, he can justify to himself the crimes that he was seeing committed.

        A book published by one man does not represent the will of anyone but that one man.  This does not justify the Nazi antisemitism and definitely not the Holocaust.         Of course, this assumes the book exists….    Eichmann’s comments on the Hoss memoirs are annihilating.  Reading where Rudolf Hoss is saying that two and a half million Jews have been liquidated at Auschwitz, the camp where he was commandant, Eichmann comments, "Where does Hoss believe that he got these two and a half million Jews?  Not from me.  Because to have liquidated two and a half million decrepit, elderly, unworkable Jews, I must have had to feed to him three, four, five, six or seven million Jews in that space of time, and from the transport point of view alone this would have been totally impossible."

        Ahh, but they didn’t kill just the decrepit, now did they?         Whats the official number on Auschwitz, over a million, I think? Less then 2.5 mill, but still a great … read more »

Response:

From _The Journal of Historical Review_, Vol. 13, Number 2 (Mar./Apr. 1993):

..to 4 specific newsgroups (misc.headlines,alt.discrimination,alt.conspiracy and sci.research) while at the same time, posting the identical article to four other newsgroups (soc.history,alt.censorship,alt.activism,alt.revisionism), also without any attempt at redirection of follow-ups. If he follows his usual form, there are probably other copies of the identical article posted to soc.misc et al. It would be nice, Mr. Gannon, if you would place all of the appropriate (!) newsgroups within a single post, thus letting all the nice UNIX news software do its job – it’s a real pain not to have an article marked as read in multiple newsgroups when its been read in one… granted, doing it your way, as you well know, provides a much more satisfying hit on net bandwidth… which, of course, you will later cite as evidence of how great the "debate" was – as you have already done with previous posts. The problem, Gannon, is that there has _been_ no debate here on UseNet – you are clearly unwilling to meet the challenge. To suggest that the value of your propaganda is somehow related to bandwidth generated downstream is more than a little dishonest, but I suspect the users on your bulletin board system are quite used to that already, given your lamentable perforance there – I can’t help but smile every time I see you fall apart when confronted by logical, scientifically precise rebuttal on your own system – you are a parody of yourself.              The Suppressed Eichmann and Goebbels Papers                              David Irving

Ah, yes, that sparkling example of the dangers of continuous inbreeding, David Irving – a scholastic fraud of the first order. And therein lies the rub, Mr. Gannon. Knowing Irving to have based his entire premise on a by sending the command GET IRVING IRVING.07), it is with the greatest difficulty that I take anything he says with more than a grain of salt. If Mr. Irving’s undeniable knowledge is dismissed because of his intellectual immorality, you should not be surprised. Losing a few libel suits and lying about your evidence will do that to a guy….)     This article was manually transcribed by the System Operator of the "Banished CPU" computer bulletin board system, which is located in Portland, Oregon, U.S.A.

This article was transcribed by Dan Gannon, owner and operator of the racist bulletin board "b-cpu."  Gannon is an avid (and rabid) anti-Semite with a long history of deceit here on UseNet and elsewhere. To obtain samples of Gannon’s "debating" style, send the commands below to index b-cpu get b-cpu gannon.0708 get b-cpu gannon.0714 get b-cpu gannon.words                    Banished CPU supports Freedom of Speech!

Bullshit. Followups redirected to alt.revisionism. — The Old Frog’s Almanac – A Salute to That Old Frog Hisse’f, Ryugen Fisher                    Ladysmith, British Columbia, CANADA                          [This space reserved]

Response:

Dan!  You’re back! Perhaps you can tell me why my access was lowered on your BBS: Security status:  New caller / non-contributor You have 15 minutes per day allowed online, and do not have access to the online games.

…despite the fact that I’d uploaded 240K worth of Ken McVay’s FAQs: TIME FILES

…and despite the fact that you promise:      Callers who contribute in a meaningful way to Banished CPU (whether by making monetary donations, uploading many high quality files, participating in discussions in the message areas, and/or in some other way supporting Banished CPU) will, as always, be granted higher access on request.  It isn’t necessary to donate money…

Shouldn’t you have made my access level _higher_, not _lower_? Unless the files I uploaded weren’t "high quality" enough for you. Perhaps I’m not understanding the word "quality" properly.  If I upload lots of files explaining what a great guy David Irving is, for example, would _that_ be "high quality"? Here’s how Dan describes himself in the blurb about his BBS:      The purpose of this BBS is rooted deeply in intellectual, philosophical, and aesthetic ground — and what you could call a spiritual ground as well.  Freedom of speech and intellectual freedom are extremely important to me.  In that sense I am quite possibly fanatical.

I dunno, from where I’m sitting it looks like he’s fanatical in quite another sense.  I don’t get all that much freedom of speech, in fifteen minutes a day. —

Response:

From _The Journal of Historical Review_, Vol. 13, Number 2 (Mar./Apr. 1993):               The Suppressed Eichmann and Goebbels Papers                               David Irving         (Presented at the Eleventh IHR Conference, October 1992) Twice this year I’ve come under the scrutiny of journalists, entirely through no doing of my own.  The first occasion was my acquisition of the Eichmann papers, about which I’ll be speaking shortly.  The second occasion was in regard to the papers of Dr. Joseph Goebbels.  I’ll show you the Goebbels papers first because these have aroused enormous interest.  It came about like this: The Goebbels Diaries    On May 6th, 1992, while I was researching at the archives of the Institute of Contemporary History in Munich — once again, "illegally" on German soil — a good friend whom I’ve known for thirty years lunched with me and said, "David, I’ve been working in the Moscow state secret archives, and I’ve found the glass plates on which are microfilmed the ENTIRE diaries of Dr. Joseph Goebbels."    At this, of course, my ears pricked up because any historian worth his salt will tell you that the published Goebbels diaries are complete except for everything that matters.  Few of the most important portions have been published so far: the November 1938 KRISTALLNACHT ("Night of broken glass"), the 1934 Rohm purge ("Night of the long knives"), the outbreak of the war in 1939, the Pearl Harbor attack, you name it — it is not in the published volumes that came out in the 1950s, the 1970s or the 1980s.  They hadn’t got everything that mattered.  We thought this was because the Soviets were holding onto the good stuff, to sell it for really top dollar later on.  But that was not the case.  It was just the typical Communist, Marxist-Leninist chaos.  They didn’t know themselves what they had.    The diaries were recorded on Agfa glass plates stored in boxes: here are my color photographs of one of the original boxes.  You can see the handwriting on it of Dr. Richard Otte, Goebbel’s own secretary, which my source immediately recognized.  Historians of the period all knew that during the final weeks of the war, Goebbels feared that his priceless diaries might be burned to a frizzle in some thoughtless British air raid. So he took the precaution of having them microfilmed on these glass plates, which at that time was a totally new system.  We knew that these glass plates existed somewhere, and we’ve been looking for them.  Actually, we couldn’t just look for them because no one knew where to look.  But if you stumbled across them, you’d know what they are, rather like the diaries of Admiral Canaris. DAVID IRVING, acknowledged by _The Times_ of London as "one of Britain’s foremost historians," is the author of more than two dozen published works on 20th-century history, including _Hess: The Missing Years_, _Uprising: Hungary 1956_, _Hitler’s War_, _Churchill’s War_ and _Goring: A Biography_ (all available from the IHR).  Irving has addressed four IHR conferences.    So in Munich 1992 my source stumbled across these boxes in the Moscow archives, and recognized them for what they were.  (You’ll notice that I don’t mention this person’s name, because I don’t want to get him or her into any trouble.)    My source’s own institute, the Institute of Contemporary History (Institut fur Zeitgeschichte) in Munich — my deadliest enemies now — refused to finance a further expedition for my source to go back to Moscow to purchase these 1,600 glass plates.    There are 92 boxes of these glass plates.  Ninety-two boxes, just loosely bundled up with string.  The glass plates are not in very good condition.  They’ve got fragments of glass splinters between them and they’re often badly scratched.  But they are entirely legible.    My source suggested that I raise the money to visit Moscow to get hold of these glass plates.  I contacted my American publisher, Avon Books, and for ten days they acted very enthusiastic.  I estimated that I’d need about $20,000 in order to buy the glass plates outright from the Russian archivists.  They need money so badly just to keep the archives running, they have to sell off the family silver bit by bit, so to speak.  I thought that $20,000 was a very reasonable price.    Suddenly, though, the bubble popped.  Word came down from the upper levels at Avon books that they wouldn’t finance my trip to Moscow to get these plates.  They feared that it involved "bribing" Russian officials, or something unethical.  So next I approached my British publishers, Macmillan London, Ltd., and within two hours received the same answer.  Perhaps it was decided that they wouldn’t help provide David Irving with this scoop.    So I approached the _Sunday Times_, which is Britain’s biggest, most serious, and most respected newspaper.  They immediately agreed to finance an initial expedition to Moscow for me to have a look at these glass plates.  A week later, I returned to London having not only looked at the plates, but having copied hundreds of pages from them — everything that mattered except for a few gaps.    When I then reached an agreement with the _Sunday Times_, they insisted that I not breathe a word to anyone about this arrangement.  As _Sunday Times_ editor Andrew Neil told me, "Irving, my staff are not happy that we are doing this deal with you."  I replied, "Well, you’ve got no choice, have you?  Because it’s my project."    If you read the newspaper accounts afterwards, you get the impression that this was the _Sunday Times_’ project, and that they had picked me for it because I’m the only person who can read Goebbels’ handwriting.  Well, later, when the big fight started, they were hoist by their own petard because the fight in Britain became horrendous and hairy.  [See the _IHR Newsletter_, Oct. 1992, p. 5.] The Controversy Begins    If, perversely, you wanted to upset the Jewish community in Britain, what would you do?  The first thing I would do is go out to all the Jewish ghettos in London, like Stamford Hill or Golders Green, and I would put up 60-foot-long posters in the Nazi colors with 15-foot swastikas, a photograph of Dr. Goebbels, and the slogan running right across in gothic script: WHEN WE DEPART, LET THE EARTH TREMBLE.  This is precisely what the _Sunday Times_ did to advertise their David Irving series!    The Jewish community frantically organized ten-man-strong gangs to go out and deface these posters.  But as fast as they desecrated, the _Sunday Times_ went ’round renewing them.  This went on for a week until finally the community concerned, our traditional enemies, brought their traditional pressures to bear on the _Sunday Times_.  As Mark Weber mentioned, they themselves admitted this pressure, not only from the English community, but the American Jewish community as well, because the _Sunday Times_ is particularly vulnerable.  Much of their finance comes from their American bnaking system, and much of the advertising in Britain is dependent on this particular community.  The community left Andrew Neil, the editor, with no doubt at all of their displeasure.  He told me at the height of this crisis that he had never been through such a nightmare in his life.    In consequence of this pressure the _Sunday Times_ had to turn the entire campaign around against me, their own contributor, and try to pretend that it was THEIR material, and that they were obliged to call me in because I was the only person who could read the handwriting.  Let me just show you what the glass pages produce.  Dr. Goebbels’ diaries were recorded in miniature on glass plates; this is the contact print of one of the glass plates.  As you see, it’s fifty pages of the diaries in handwriting, very, very small.  The first week I was there I had no easy means of reading them because there was no microfilm reader in Moscow.  But by chance I had a tiny little 12x magnifying glass with me, as large as my fingernail, and with that I could read those glass plates for the next week.    Some of them we borrowed, with the permission of the archivist, and had them blown up to produce these photographs.  You can see later on, those of you who read German, that Dr. Goebbels’ handwriting is truly illegible.  It took me two years to learn to read it.  When the _Sunday Times_ said, "Irving is one of the three people in the world who can read Goebbels’ handwriting," our rivals scoffed and said, "That’s utter baloney, any German of that generation can read his handwriting."  So I sent pages of the diary to these rival journalists, and I said, "I’ll pay you a thousand pounds if, within two weeks, you can supply me with a transcript of one page with fewer than 50 percent errors."  Not one of them took me up on it. The _Daily Mail_, a rival of the _Sunday Times_, thought they’d scooped us by paying 20,000 pounds to purchase a few pages of the diary from the Institute of Contemporary History in Munich, who were determined to spite me.  The _Daily Mail_ took their precious pages and hurried off back to London to get to work on them, only to find to their horror that their people could not read the pages they’d paid 20,000 pounds for!  I had some happy moments during that July of 1992, as you can believe. [Photograph captioned, "Joseph Goebbels (right) with armaments minister Albert Speer (left) and labor leader Robert Ley at a mass meeting in Berlin in 1943 to honor outstanding workers."]    Mark [Weber] mentioned the publicity that surrounded this affair, and it’s true: during those two weeks alone, I collected two thousand press clippings from around the world.  It was exactly the same back in January whent he Eichmann papers scandal broke.  You see, when I was in Argentina in October [1991] delivering lectures in English and … read more »

Response:

[ a bunch of idiotic mindless leftist (read more-stalin-like-than-Bush) drivel     deleted] }P.S. — Note the heated interest of this Stalinist crowd in examining }the evidence of this horrific record since *by definition* Bush and }friends (that’s "we") could not possibly be engaging in such things.

Would you please define Stalinist? I do not see how people of obvious conservative persuasion can be called Stalinist (Stalin was a leftist). } }P.P.S. — Isn’t it fun imagining  what your life and freedomes would be }like if these peole ran the country?

Much better, sar.casm ’sa:r-.kaz-*m sa:r-’kas-tik -ti-k(*-)le- n [F sarcasme, fr.    LL sarcasmos, fr. Gk sarkasmos, fr. sarkazein to tear flesh, bite the lips    in rage, sneer, fr. sark-, sarx flesh; akin to Av thwar*s to cut] 1: a    cutting, hostile, or contemptuous remark : GIBE 2: the use of caustic or    ironic language – sar.cas.tic aj                                    ###             ## Courtesy of Bruce Varney           ###               # aka – The Grand Master                               # PUCC                               ###                #                                 #                # ;’                                #               ##

Response:

You know, if the US Government policies are ones of mass murder, I really wish they would adopt some policies towards Dartmouth and Berkeley…. —  Michael P. Deignan                      / They’re not "bombs". That makes two of us.  In fact, I think it would be worthwhile to gather some of the more blatant examples of Harel’s bovine scatology and send them to my congressional represenative and ask them to investiage and make sure that no government funds are in any way supporting, subsidizing, or otherwise benefiting this activity.  While Harel and his ilk may have a right to their opinions, it will be a very cold day in hell before I want any of my taxes going to pay for spreading their propaganda.

Well, now you know how peace activists feel about _their_ taxes … Incidentally, this is particularly ugly behavior on the part of both of you. To advocate mass murder simply because of a difference of opinion … but, then again, when is it any different ? Remind me not to change into your lane on the freeway … — richard —                 Creating a KILL file is the seed of censorship.

Response:

That makes two of us.  In fact, I think it would be worthwhile to gather some of the more blatant examples of Harel’s bovine scatology and send them to my congressional represenative and ask them to investiage and make sure that no government funds are in any way supporting, subsidizing, or otherwise benefiting this activity.  While Harel and his ilk may have a right to their opinions, it will be a very cold day in hell before I want any of my taxes going to pay for spreading their propaganda.

What is even worse is that the net.politically.correct.thought.police, Jim and Harel, have been harrassing sysadmins of sites whose users post Politically Incorrect[tm] thoughts. This blatent attempt to censor users who have not been Politically Enlightened[tm] is yet even more evidence that a "misc.activism" newsgroup shouldn’t be created. MD — —  Michael P. Deignan                      / They’re not "bombs". —    UUCP: …!uunet!rayssd!anomaly!mpd  /   "Gifts From Above". — Telebit: +1 401 455 0347              /

Response:

___  __ The following is a "meta-discussion."  If uninterested,   _ hit "n" (or equivalent). [T]he net.politically.correct.thought.police, Jim [sic?] and Harel, have been harrassing sysadmins of sites whose users post Politically Incorrect[tm] thoughts. This blatent [sic] attempt to censor users who have not been Politically Enlightened[tm] is yet even more evidence that a "misc.activism" newsgroup shouldn’t be created.

___  __ I suspect "Jim" means me, not because of any "thought police"   _ activities on my part; but because of incidents which Harel     and I have been involved in, which Mr. Deignan would seem to     have no qualms misrepresenting as the above. ___  __ If he is indeed referring to that incident, his reporting   _ and interpretation of the events are both wrong.  Here are     the events as they actually occurred: (1) I received an email message from a person I’ll call Mr. X.     The message was simply a posting I had made, prefixed with     "" characters.  I assumed it was a mistake and deleted it.     (Mr. X denies ever having sent me such a message.) (2) Harel posted that Mr. X was sending him such messages.  The     quantity was unspecified.  I posted a message saying, "hmm,     deja-vu" (or somesuch), and I noted that software exists that     can automatically bounce messages from certain harassing     users. (3) I didn’t see this (it was perhaps buried inside a flaming     thread that I ignored, or was cancelled before I could read     it), but apparently Mr. X publically suggested that people     send Harel’s postings back to him as "letter bombs." (4) On March 5th, Mr. X posted a retraction to this suggestion,     mentioning that his sysadmin had received complaints.  I don’t     know how many complaints there were or who sent them (I hadn’t     sent any).  The subject line and message-ID of that message     are reproduced here:

    (Users of gnus can position the cursor on or near the message-     ID and type "r" if they want to read the retraction itself.) (5) I sent an email message to Mr. X’s sysadmin (carbon-copied     to Mr. X), in which I stated that that I found the retraction     insincere, mainly because the presence of the ":-)" smiley     face symbol in the Subject line could well be interpreted to     mean the whole message was a joke.  I again noted the exist-     ence of software that could be used to bounce messages back     to harassers.  Nowhere did I advocate that Mr. X’s right to     send email messages or post news messages be curtailed. ___  __ Mr. Deignan’s claims are uncompelling.  It was Mr. X who   _ was doing the harassment and advocating that others do the     same.  It was Mr. X who was doing such in an attempt to     discourage Harel from posting messages he didn’t like. ___  __ Mr. Deignan’s attempt to drag the proposed misc.activism.*   _ newsgroup(s) into this incident is also uncompelling  While     Harel is involved in that effort, I am not.  And I have not     seen any evidence that Harel has done what Mr. Deignan would     have us believe he has.     <_Jym_

Response:

[blather deleted] That’s anti-[U.S. government whose policies of mass-murder (email for documentation) You know, if the US Government policies are ones of mass murder, I really wish they would adopt some policies towards Dartmouth and Berkeley.... MD -- --  Michael P. Deignan                      / They're not "bombs".

That makes two of us.  In fact, I think it would be worthwhile to gather some of the more blatant examples of Harel's bovine scatology and send them to my congressional represenative and ask them to investiage and make sure that no government funds are in any way supporting, subsidizing, or otherwise benefiting this activity.  While Harel and his ilk may have a right to their opinions, it will be a very cold day in hell before I want any of my taxes going to pay for spreading their propaganda.

Response:

That's anti-[U.S. government whose policies of mass-murder (email for documentation)

        [An offer too good to accept for Mr. Smith, apparently) [...] That makes two of us.  In fact, I think it would be worthwhile to gather some of the more blatant examples of Harel’s bovine scatology and send them to my congressional represenative and ask them to

In other words, the evidence posted which carefully documents atrocities funded by our tax dollars is never an issue to write angry letters to Congress about since  this evidence is simply not to be examined, it’s conclusions being simply unacceptable. Moreover, investiage and make sure that no government funds are in any way supporting, subsidizing, or otherwise benefiting this activity.  While

any such activity, unlike posting about your pet dog, lacks any legitimacy in our democracy, just as scholarly investigation into Soviet atrocities lacked any legitimacy in Stalinist "democracy" Harel and his ilk may have a right to their opinions, it will be a

                   — or maybe not; it would be far better for the state for people like us with dangerous opinions to be herded to some U.S. "Siberia," if not outright shot, exactly what was suggested –quite seriously– be done to Senators Kennedy and Kerry by fugitive and former CIA operative John Hull, wanted for murder in Costa Rica, but of course only leftists (and governments like Costa Rica) believe the CIA is involved with sponsoring murder, drug-running, etc. very cold day in hell before I want any of my taxes going to pay for spreading their propaganda.

Paying for:     Efforts by El Salvador’s independent and church-run human rights     organizations to investigate these killing have been hampered by     the harassment, intimidation, imprisonment, torture, mutilation,     extrajudicial execution and "disappearance" of their members…         "El Salvador: “Death Squads” — A Government Strategy"         Report by Amnesty International however, is entirely acceptable. Harel P.S. — Note the heated interest of this Stalinist crowd in examining the evidence of this horrific record since *by definition* Bush and friends (that’s "we") could not possibly be engaging in such things. P.P.S. — Isn’t it fun imagining  what your life and freedomes would be like if these peole ran the country?       For more information about ACTIV-L or PeaceNet’s brochure,   #        Harel Barzilai for Activists Mailing List (AML)          # To join AML, just send the message "SUB ACTIV-L <your full name" to confirming that your name has been added to the list. Other addresses or "ucscc!umcvmb.missouri.edu!LISTSERV"] List Administrator:

Response:

 On the whole, I think you’re right.  But I have one disagreement.  The US special interests in operation desert-shield are not capi- talists, they are corporate-welfare statists.  Capitalism is based upon the recognition of individual rights, not upon using the military defense for offensive invasion of foreign countries. Tim Starr

Agreed, the free market and free enterprise system does not require cheap oil to generate wealth…the market will adjust to commodity costs no matter what they are…although it will disturb the status quo.  The supposed economic reasons for going to the Gulf represent the worst kind of state interference in the market.  There may be legitimate reasons for war in the Gulf, but they are not economic ones.   (I ascribe to the position that although war is a legitimate option to oppose the Iraqi agression, war is not a wise option, and the West should take the time to make the sanctions work…the war option will always be there, and although war may be the fastest way of solving the current problem, there are likely to be a lot of unintended consequences.  Plus, ultimately, the policy of most of the alliance is to fight to the last American…most everyone else is grudgingly for war because it is not their sons and daughters who are going to do the fighting…the U.S. has the least to gain and the most to lose by going to war.  The U.S. paid a heavy price to win the Cold War…it should focus on restoring its economic and social infrastructure so it will be healthy in case the rest of the world needs it for something REALLY important like the Cold War again.) Gerald

Response:

Self-proclaimed ‘Wise One’,     Idealism!!  I thought it lost once.. radical idealism!!  what an original concept.. too bad it doesn’t work, neh?  I don’t think your naivete is going to impress anyone anywhere……             -gjb besides, it just don’t belong here, do it?? "Only a Hawaiian can say Humuhumunukunukuapuaa five times fast, correctly."

Response:

 The US special interests in operation desert-shield are not capi- talists, they are corporate-welfare statists.  Capitalism is based Tim Starr Agreed, the free market and free enterprise system does not require Gerald

                really, folks! I understand that this is all imp’t                 stuff, but it doesn’t belong in alt.sex.  Please                 take it elsewhere immediately!!!                                                 -DWE —         "Try not…Do.  Do or Do Not.  There is no Try."–Yoda                 "Your perfect lover’s never there and if she was           she wouldn’t be…and neither would you."–Robyn Hitchcock

Response:

Why THE HELL should she be ashamed for trying to scare people about war. If you don’t think war is about the most terrifying thing in the world, you’re sick. I’d rather die by a bullet of a gun than from aids of a fag. One thing more terrifing than war

Sure.  The government is not nearly as likely to begin "compulsory sexual intercourse with AIDS infected people" as it is  to begin compulsory military service.  Your statement is totally irrelevant. And whats so different in the AIDS from a "fag" compared to the AIDS from a heterosexual woman? Homophobia doesn’t help anything… -Chris Dicely

Response:

   One arab ‘brother’ slaps another in the face – the face being slapped is that of reactionary Saddam Hussein who reacts by invading Kuwait. A personal conflict between two enjoining arab countries – inspired by greed and malice, fueled by out of control US capitalists, influenced by Saddam’s vision of one Arab nation under his control.    Now the reality: 300000+ humans awaiting the moment to begin deadly conflict with 1000000+ other humans. But consider- Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait caused few causalities – placed no

Excuse me you racist pig!  I suppose Kuwaiti women getting raped, and Kuwaiti children being removed from life-support systems so said life-support systems could be brought back to Iraq, possibly to be sold later to get cash to pay for weapons, should be considered "few casualties"!!! other country in peril. An US attack of Kuwait and Iraq would cause hundreds of thousands of people,perhaps millions, to lose their lives or livelihood.  It would destroy Kuwait, effect devastation upon any chances of Peaceful relations between Arabic and American people – disrupt the flow of oil from the gulf throwing many parts of the world, especially America, into a massive economic recession.    THIS IS NOT A WAR ABOUT OIL nor neccessarily because of Iraq’s invasion of kuwait. There are other reasons behind the American self-rightousness veil of ‘we are the worlds protector’ that smell of foulness.

A war for Oil today would be like a fight over farmland in days past. It is an _Absolutely_ necessary resource.  I suppose you wouldn’t fight if someone cut you off from food for no reason, so you see no reason for other people to fight to defend their lives and yours.  Saddam Hussein wouldn’t have started this debacle if it weren’t for Oil, so if we fight, we are fighting, and justly, because of Oil.    In the event of a war, the U.S. military would fly over Kuwait into Bagdad. They could care less about freeing Kuwait, the military planners want Bagdad and have wanted it for along time – Saddam Husseins idiot invasion of Kuwait gave the U.S. government a reason to finally play their power card.

Next you’ll be telling us that the US paid Saddam to invade so that we could look good. (no :*) )  Contrary to your almighty opinion, Army Officers don’t like wars very much either.  Their lifelong buddies die while College Students on Government Student Loans say that their government is _EVIL_ THE LEADERS WANT WAR – THE PEOPLE WANT A FAIR CHANCE AT LIFE… Dont be fooled by hate – face it with love, dont give in to the deception – be strong in the presence of fatalism, in the presense of utter maddness. REBEL- BECOME – EXPRESS – UNDERSTAND…

Give me a FUCKING BREAK!  You don’t stop a murderer by spanking those who would stand up to him!  Face reality instead of the vague haze of hippy-ness you cloak yourself with.  You _ARE_ the society you fight against!            ,esra

Michael Sandy Yet another, Proud, Liberal, Democrat with the guts to say, "I voted for Dukakis, and yet, I support the actions of the US against Iraq." By the way, I apologize on behalf of the Net for any increase in the noise-noise ratio of this group and any cross-posted to it.

Response:

What attack of tertiary syphillus spirochettes in your brain caused you to post that piece of paranoid drivel to ALT.SEX????? And without a followup entry, so the objections can spew across the net. Moron. Kent, the man from xanth. — And besides, it was 60,000 body bags.  The worms are hungry.

Response:

I’d rather die by a bullet of a gun than from aids of a fag. One thing more terrifing than war

Amazing how little you seem to know about either war or AIDS. Better check your facts wrt AIDS, friend, because more straight people are getting infected than gay people. — Jess Anderson  Madison Academic Computing Center  University of Wisconsin Work: Rm. 3130, 1210 West Dayton St., Madison WI 53706, Ph. 608/262-5888

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    US GOVERNMENT PLACES ORDER FOR 20000 CANVAS BODY BAGS…    Who will be filling those bags?    18, 19 and 20 year old human beings…    The reality of War – are YOU prepared to face it? You should be ashamed of yourself, preying on the natural fears of people just barely away from home, barely adults.  Ironically, the ones you convince will be the least mature, the most gullible.  But you don’t care, do you? Ironically, the ones WHO DIE will be the least mature, the most gullible. But you don’t care, do you? Why THE HELL should she be ashamed for trying to scare people about war. If you don’t think war is about the most terrifying thing in the world,

    Yes, but it’s not *the* most terrifying thing, and that’s why sometimes one must go to war. —  _ DeMott Electronics Co. 14707 Keswick St.   Van Nuys, CA 91405-1266 VOICE (818) 988-4975   FAX (818) 997-1190  MODEM (818) 997-4496 PEP last

Response:

   Path: tukki.jyu.fi!news.funet.fi!sunic!mcsun!uunet!wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-stat e.edu!ub!boulder!iraq!frog    Newsgroups: alt.desert-shield,soc.women,alt.sex,soc.motss,alt.activism,alt.drugs    Organization: World         [lotsa propaganda removed] Didn’t anyone else notice: a) the fake domain c) the fake path d) the suicidally large crosspost Curious, what people will do to get some attention… (followups directed to alt.forgery) —   /* Phone: +358 41 613 847, BBS: +358 41 211 562 (CCITT, Bell 24/12/300) */  /* Mail: Kauppakatu 1 B 18, SF-40100 Jyvaskyla, Finland, EUROPE         */ /* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * */

Response:

Alright.  Everybody, look please, PLEASE, lean back take a deep breath and resist the urge to waste more bandwidth complaining about idiots who cross-post to groups that do not have subjects conversant with the article.  Either you         a) are interested in the topic discussed, or are on a group that commonly                          discusses such topics, and think the poster could have used a little            better judgement in the choice of distribution network or,     b) you have no interest in the topic or in reading it on a non-sanguine            group you subsscribe to and think the poster could have used a little            better judgement in the choice of distribution network Will all those in group a) kindly edit their distribution networks so that those of us in alt.drugs (and presumably alt.sex and soc.motss, though I don’t pretend to speak for them) do not have to wade through the rest of this discussion.  For those of us in group b), I recommend using e-mail to flame (as I have done) and resisting the urge to  cause yet another flurry of boring net-iquette postings. not exist.  Gee, there’s a surprise.  I will temporarily refrain from using the self-control I have advocated above to say that I wish that somE IDIOT OUT THERE WOULD GET A FUCKING LIFE!!!!  There that’s better.  Now let’s all get back to what we were doing. — : Dirk Valk             | "I looked up one day and saw that it was up to me: : Rice Univeristy       |  you can only be a victim if you admit defeat!   :

Response:

18 ,19 and to 25 year old human beings senselessly and ruthlessly slaughtered because of greedy, irrational, power play by a minority in control.    TAKE AWAY THEIR CONTROL – STOP BELIEVING IN THEM, STOP BELIEVING IN THE GOVERNMENT – BELIEVE IN HUMANITY – BELIEVE IN YOURSELF.    Evolution has brought us to now – where do we go from here…….            ,esra

        What a bleeeeeeeeeeeeeding heart.  Who could want war ? Maby the U.S. and United Nation want to prevent another "Hitler" from         If you don’t like it consider the alternative, move.                                         Doug

Response:

Why THE HELL should she be ashamed for trying to scare people about war. If you don’t think war is about the most terrifying thing in the world, you’re sick.

 I’d rather die by a bullet of a gun than from aids of a fag. One thing more terrifing than war Doug

Response:

It is far from wise to write and post an article with unsubstantiated "facts". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Consider:    Kuwait supported, encouraged and financed much of the Iraq-Iran war in hopes of Iraq being victorious. The United States supported Iraq/Hussein throughout the war with Iran and turned its head when Iraq used chemical weapons on its Kurdish populus.    The United States and Kuwait are many of, but not exclusively, the reasons Saddam Hussein obtained the power he now holds. Both the US and Kuwait governments are greatly responsible for the Iraqi invasion.    The situation was this: After the Iran-Iraq war thousands of American and European businessman rushed to Iran to make their fortune in the rebuildment of Iran. Tehran airport was filled with man in fancy business suites and bulging eyes. The kuwaiti businessmen behind instituitions that financed much of the war (in conjunction with the US) were sitting back gleefully wallowing in the pay-offs from their investment (In mass murder). Then these Kuwait Businessmen became excessively more obsessive with the obtainment of money and demanded that Iraq pay back all of the money given to it by Kuwait in finance of the war.    One arab ‘brother’ slaps another in the face – the face being slapped is that of reactionary Saddam Hussein who reacts by invading Kuwait. A personal conflict between two enjoining arab countries – inspired by greed and malice, fueled by out of control US capitalists, influenced by Saddam’s vision of one Arab nation under his control.    Now the reality: 300000+ humans awaiting the moment to begin deadly conflict with 1000000+ other humans. But consider- Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait caused few causalities

Evidence presented in the United Nations contradicts this statement. placed no other country in peril. An US attack of Kuwait and Iraq would

More nonsense. 100,000+ troops on the Saudi border certainly places Saudi in peril. The act of invading Kuwait has put the whole region in peril! Besides, isn’t puting the country invaded in peril enough!!!! cause hundreds of thousands of people,perhaps millions, to lose their lives or livelihood.  It would destroy Kuwait, effect devastation upon any chances of Peaceful relations between Arabic and American people – disrupt the flow of oil from the gulf throwing many parts of the world, especially America, into a massive economic recession.

Letting a madman like SH get control of the region would cause just as much if not more of an economic desaster for the whole world. Letting friends, whom you have promised to help, down, would strain relations even more.    THIS IS NOT A WAR ABOUT OIL nor neccessarily because of Iraq’s invasion of kuwait. There are other reasons behind the American self-rightousness veil of ‘we are the worlds protector’ that smell of foulness.

In any moral world, IMHO, it is the duty of the strong to come to the aid of the oppressed, especially when right and wrong are so clearly defined as in the case of a sovereign nation being invaded by another nation.    In the event of a war, the U.S. military would fly over Kuwait into Bagdad. They could care less about freeing Kuwait, the military planners want Bagdad and have wanted it for along time – Saddam Husseins idiot invasion of Kuwait gave the U.S. government a reason to finally play their power card.

In the U.S. as in every democratic society, the government is an extension of the people. Most Americans I have talked to care a great deal about Kuwait and would like to see Sadam Hussein and his cronies crushed, and not see the Iraqi people suffer. Sadam Hussein opresses his own people. I have many Iraqi friends with family still in Iraq, they all say that living in Iraq is much the same as living in East Germany used to be. People are afraid to speak out because there are secret police and paid informers everywhere. Sanctions will not work because SH and his gang of cut throats are standing on the backs of the people. They don’t care if the people suffer or die, as long as they stay rich and maintain power. (This is not personal opinion, but the opinion of the many Iraqis I have spoken with. Not one, who is free to speak, supports SH or his invasion of Kuwait.)    US GOVERNMENT PLACES ORDER FOR 20000 CANVAS BODY BAGS…    Who will be filling those bags?    18, 19 and 20 year old human beings…    The reality of War – are YOU prepared to face it?

I, like every other soldier have been taking a pay check for many years. In Canada as in the U.S. we have a volunteer armed forces. All of us knew what we were signing up to do and the risks involved. Yes I’m prepared to face it. George Bush:    1) States that the presence of civilian ‘pawns’ placed at various Iraqi military installations will not prevent the U.S. military from attacking those sights – henceforth are expandable then    2) Expresses outrage at Saddam Hussein for starving these american civilians which Mr. Bush previously declared expendable.    3) If Bush ordered military retaliation agaisnt Saddam Hussein for starving these American civilians the end result would be the death of the American Civilians by the United States military.    If anyone is responsible for these starving American civilians it is Mr. No compromise himself – George Herbert Walker Bush.

If you compromise with a terrorist you encourage terrorism. There were many signs of the trouble to come in Iraq and Kuwait for weeks before the Aug invasion. I had friends who were warned to get out, most of them did. Those who stayed knew the risk.    Oh and to compound the hypocrisy – look up the statistics on how many American citizens are subject to famine, disease and homelessness every day in the good ol’ USA.    If anyone is responsible for these starving American citizens it is the multi-billion dollar a year defense spending U.S. government and all those of the body politic who willfully support it.

The reasons for poverty in the U.S., Canada and other developped countries are much more complex than you give them credit for. If the solution were so simple, it would have been solved years ago. Do you really think Americans, rich and poor like to see poverty in their own country? Unfortunatly in a world where others are willing to go to war, freedom has a price. You can thank that price for your ability to express your ideas on this network!    PEOPLE OF THE WORLD – think about what is going on – look at the reality, understand the situation – then make your judegments… The lives of millions of humans hang in the balance-    WE ARE ALL IN THIS WORLD TOGETHER. WHEN ONE OF US SUFFERS WE ALL SUFFER-

Here, here.    THE LEADERS WANT WAR – THE PEOPLE WANT A FAIR CHANCE AT LIFE…

You are very naive if you really believe that any on "wants" war, especially not a leader (George Bush) who has experienced it first hand.    Dont be fooled by hate – face it with love, dont give in to the deception – be strong in the presence of fatalism, in the presense of utter maddness. REBEL- BECOME – EXPRESS – UNDERSTAND…    We are all human – look at each other – see what freaks you are.. See what ruthless games you can play – Find and embrace the higher purpose, find love.

I have no problem with this noble goal.    Dont you understand how numb you are to the reality of Woman, Children, 18 ,19 and to 25 year old human beings senselessly and ruthlessly slaughtered because of greedy, irrational, power play by a minority in control.    TAKE AWAY THEIR CONTROL – STOP BELIEVING IN THEM, STOP BELIEVING IN THE GOVERNMENT – BELIEVE IN HUMANITY – BELIEVE IN YOURSELF.    Evolution has brought us to now – where do we go from here…….

Its too bad that you don’t have faith in our political systems. Once again the government is the people. The minority never rule. Although we do experience minor hickups, elections solve the problem. The U.S. just had congressional elections last month. I think the representatives do in fact represent the will of the American people. Peace, is always the best alternative. Peace at any price isn’t. WWII taught us that lesson. Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Any negotiations with SH which result in any part of Kuwait becoming Iraqi is akin to Chamberlain (SP) saying "its okay, let Hitler have the Sudatenland he won’t want any more, we can trust him". Yes people, before you protest, think. Regards, Ajai.

Response:

    Why THE HELL should she be ashamed for trying to scare people about war.     If you don’t think war is about the most terrifying thing in the world,     you’re sick.        I’d rather die by a bullet of a gun than from aids of a fag.    One thing more terrifing than war No, the only thing more terrifying is someone who doesn’t capitalize acronyms like AIDS, who can’t punctuate sentences properly, cannot use articles well: "a" where "the" belongs, "of" instead of "from", and cannot spell. And this person is in college.  Sheesh! — It’s better to get mugged than to live a life of fear — Freeman Dyson I joined the League for Programming Freedom, and I hope you’ll join too.

Response:

 On the whole, I think you’re right.  But I have one disagreement.  The US special interests in operation desert-shield are not capi- talists, they are corporate-welfare statists.  Capitalism is based upon the recognition of individual rights, not upon using the military defense for offensive invasion of foreign countries.

Rights like the right of self-determination being denied the Kuwaiti’s who have requested our assistance and are being occupied by Iraq?  Nah, couldn’t be…  That would indicate that we had a REAL REASON to be in desert-shield, and wouldn’t fit all the conspiracy theories that people for some reason seem to want the world to fit into… -Chris Dicely

Response:

Consider:         Kuwait supported, encouraged and financed much of the Iraq-Iran war in hopes of Iraq being victorious. The United States supported Iraq/Hussein throughout the war with Iran and turned its head when Iraq used chemical weapons on its Kurdish populus.         The United States and Kuwait are many of, but not exclusively, the reasons Saddam Hussein obtained the power he now holds. Both the US and Kuwait governments are greatly responsible for the Iraqi invasion.         The situation was this: After the Iran-Iraq war thousands of American and European businessman rushed to Iran to make their fortune in the rebuildment of Iran. Tehran airport was filled with man in fancy business suites and bulging eyes. The kuwaiti businessmen behind instituitions that financed much of the war (in conjunction with the US) were sitting back gleefully wallowing in the pay-offs from their investment (In mass murder). Then these Kuwait Businessmen became excessively more obsessive with the obtainment of money and demanded that Iraq pay back all of the money given to it by Kuwait in finance of the war.         One arab ‘brother’ slaps another in the face – the face being slapped is that of reactionary Saddam Hussein who reacts by invading Kuwait. A personal conflict between two enjoining arab countries – inspired by greed and malice, fueled by out of control US capitalists, influenced by Saddam’s vision of one Arab nation under his control.         Now the reality: 300000+ humans awaiting the moment to begin deadly conflict with 1000000+ other humans. But consider- Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait caused few causalities – placed no other country in peril. An US attack of Kuwait and Iraq would cause hundreds of thousands of people,perhaps millions, to lose their lives or livelihood.  It would destroy Kuwait, effect devastation upon any chances of Peaceful relations between Arabic and American people – disrupt the flow of oil from the gulf throwing many parts of the world, especially America, into a massive economic recession.         THIS IS NOT A WAR ABOUT OIL nor neccessarily because of Iraq’s invasion of kuwait. There are other reasons behind the American self-rightousness veil of ‘we are the worlds protector’ that smell of foulness.         In the event of a war, the U.S. military would fly over Kuwait into Bagdad. They could care less about freeing Kuwait, the military planners want Bagdad and have wanted it for along time – Saddam Husseins idiot invasion of Kuwait gave the U.S. government a reason to finally play their power card.         US GOVERNMENT PLACES ORDER FOR 20000 CANVAS BODY BAGS…         Who will be filling those bags?         18, 19 and 20 year old human beings…         The reality of War – are YOU prepared to face it? George Bush:         1) States that the presence of civilian ‘pawns’ placed at various Iraqi military installations will not prevent the U.S. military from attacking those sights – henceforth are expandable then    2) Expresses outrage at Saddam Hussein for starving these american civilians which Mr. Bush previously declared expendable.         3) If Bush ordered military retaliation agaisnt Saddam Hussein for starving these American civilians the end result would be the death of the American Civilians by the United States military.         If anyone is responsible for these starving American civilians it is Mr. No compromise himself – George Herbert Walker Bush.         Oh and to compound the hypocrisy – look up the statistics on how many American citizens are subject to famine, disease and homelessness every day in the good ol’ USA.         If anyone is responsible for these starving American citizens it is the multi-billion dollar a year defense spending U.S. government and all those of the body politic who willfully support it.         PEOPLE OF THE WORLD – think about what is going on – look at the reality, understand the situation – then make your judegments… The lives of millions of humans hang in the balance-         WE ARE ALL IN THIS WORLD TOGETHER. WHEN ONE OF US SUFFERS WE ALL SUFFER-         THE LEADERS WANT WAR – THE PEOPLE WANT A FAIR CHANCE AT LIFE…         Dont be fooled by hate – face it with love, dont give in to the deception – be strong in the presence of fatalism, in the presense of utter maddness. REBEL- BECOME – EXPRESS – UNDERSTAND…         We are all human – look at each other – see what freaks you are.. See what ruthless games you can play – Find and embrace the higher purpose, find love.         Dont you understand how numb you are to the reality of Woman, Children, 18 ,19 and to 25 year old human beings senselessly and ruthlessly slaughtered because of greedy, irrational, power play by a minority in control.         TAKE AWAY THEIR CONTROL – STOP BELIEVING IN THEM, STOP BELIEVING IN THE GOVERNMENT – BELIEVE IN HUMANITY – BELIEVE IN YOURSELF.         Evolution has brought us to now – where do we go from here…….                 ,esra

Response:

Why THE HELL should she be ashamed for trying to scare people about war. If you don’t think war is about the most terrifying thing in the world, you’re sick.

No, ignorance is the most terrifying thing in the world.  Unfortunately most wars are started by ignorance… – Jeff Shorey

Response:

Consider:    Kuwait supported, encouraged and financed much of the Iraq-Iran war in hopes of Iraq being victorious. The United States supported Iraq/Hussein throughout the war with Iran and turned its head when Iraq used chemical weapons on its Kurdish populus.

Kuwait supported Iraq because they were convinced that if Iran won the Iranians would attack them.  Sort of self defense.  The United States supported Iraq because we didn’t want Iran (who was the most vocal of our Gulf US-haters) to get control of the smaller Gulf countries. I’m not agreeing with what was done, but the decision had its basis…    The United States and Kuwait are many of, but not exclusively, the reasons Saddam Hussein obtained the power he now holds.

Two is not many.  The fact that he had the biggest regional army even before he had US assistance, that others helped him develope ballistic missiles, that the Soviets and their allies sold them most of the weapons in their military, etc., etc., etc., I suppose are less significant than US and Kuwaiti assistance during the Iran-Iraq war? Both the US and Kuwait governments are greatly responsible for the Iraqi invasion.    The situation was this: After the Iran-Iraq war thousands of American and European businessman rushed to Iran to make their fortune in the rebuildment of Iran. Tehran airport was filled with man in fancy business suites and bulging eyes. The kuwaiti businessmen behind instituitions that financed much of the war (in conjunction with the US) were sitting back gleefully wallowing in the pay-offs from their investment (In mass murder). Then these Kuwait Businessmen became excessively more obsessive with the obtainment of money and demanded that Iraq pay back all of the money given to it by Kuwait in finance of the war.

Well, not exactly.  The Kuwaiti’s were mostly relieved that the rampant terrorism against their population that was sponsored by the Iranian gov’t was over.  The money they "gave" to Iraq was in the form of loans that Iraq agreed at the time to repay, as was the money given by Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Bahrain, etc., etc., etc… And then the Iraqi’s decided to DEMAND that Kuwait cede them various territories that were part of Kuwait, and Kuwait responded to the effect of: "You have this $30 billion debt and you want us to just give you our land? WHAT??" And then the Iraqi’s wanted the land and more money and forgiveness of the old loands, and again the Kuwaitis said "WHAT???" And then the Iraqi’s said "If you don’t give us what we want, we have ways of getting it!" And then Iraq built up forces on the Kuwaiti border. And then the US Gov’t told Kuwait that Iraq was just trying to intimidate them. And the the Iraqi’s invaded, and Kuwait immediately asked for US assistance… The rest, is history… -Chris Dicely – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    One arab ‘brother’ slaps another in the face – the face being slapped is that of reactionary Saddam Hussein who reacts by invading Kuwait. A personal conflict between two enjoining arab countries – inspired by greed and malice, fueled by out of control US capitalists, influenced by Saddam’s vision of one Arab nation under his control.    Now the reality: 300000+ humans awaiting the moment to begin deadly conflict with 1000000+ other humans. But consider- Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait caused few causalities – placed no other country in peril. An US attack of Kuwait and Iraq would cause hundreds of thousands of people,perhaps millions, to lose their lives or livelihood.  It would destroy Kuwait, effect devastation upon any chances of Peaceful relations between Arabic and American people – disrupt the flow of oil from the gulf throwing many parts of the world, especially America, into a massive economic recession.    THIS IS NOT A WAR ABOUT OIL nor neccessarily because of Iraq’s invasion of kuwait. There are other reasons behind the American self-rightousness veil of ‘we are the worlds protector’ that smell of foulness.    In the event of a war, the U.S. military would fly over Kuwait into Bagdad. They could care less about freeing Kuwait, the military planners want Bagdad and have wanted it for along time – Saddam Husseins idiot invasion of Kuwait gave the U.S. government a reason to finally play their power card.    US GOVERNMENT PLACES ORDER FOR 20000 CANVAS BODY BAGS…    Who will be filling those bags?    18, 19 and 20 year old human beings…    The reality of War – are YOU prepared to face it? George Bush:    1) States that the presence of civilian ‘pawns’ placed at various Iraqi military installations will not prevent the U.S. military from attacking those sights – henceforth are expandable then    2) Expresses outrage at Saddam Hussein for starving these american civilians which Mr. Bush previously declared expendable.    3) If Bush ordered military retaliation agaisnt Saddam Hussein for starving these American civilians the end result would be the death of the American Civilians by the United States military.    If anyone is responsible for these starving American civilians it is Mr. No compromise himself – George Herbert Walker Bush.    Oh and to compound the hypocrisy – look up the statistics on how many American citizens are subject to famine, disease and homelessness every day in the good ol’ USA.    If anyone is responsible for these starving American citizens it is the multi-billion dollar a year defense spending U.S. government and all those of the body politic who willfully support it.    PEOPLE OF THE WORLD – think about what is going on – look at the reality, understand the situation – then make your judegments… The lives of millions of humans hang in the balance-    WE ARE ALL IN THIS WORLD TOGETHER. WHEN ONE OF US SUFFERS WE ALL SUFFER-    THE LEADERS WANT WAR – THE PEOPLE WANT A FAIR CHANCE AT LIFE…    Dont be fooled by hate – face it with love, dont give in to the deception – be strong in the presence of fatalism, in the presense of utter maddness. REBEL- BECOME – EXPRESS – UNDERSTAND…    We are all human – look at each other – see what freaks you are.. See what ruthless games you can play – Find and embrace the higher purpose, find love.    Dont you understand how numb you are to the reality of Woman, Children, 18 ,19 and to 25 year old human beings senselessly and ruthlessly slaughtered because of greedy, irrational, power play by a minority in control.    TAKE AWAY THEIR CONTROL – STOP BELIEVING IN THEM, STOP BELIEVING IN THE GOVERNMENT – BELIEVE IN HUMANITY – BELIEVE IN YOURSELF.    Evolution has brought us to now – where do we go from here…….            ,esra

Response:

     Well, I guess you people are right.  Topics are getting a little off the wall in alt.sex.  Was this announcement arousing to anyone?                    Crazyman

Response:

[lots of shit]   While I agree with various things this poser says in their message, I am rather irritated by their continual cross posting to every other newsgroup. The idea behind having different newsgroups, oh clueless fuck, is to keep topics of interest in their appropiate areas.   Cross posting this crap will generate lots of noise in many groups that are already over-active. That’s why all followups to this message are going to go into alt.flame. "Cretin – n [F cretin, fr. F dial. cretin Christian, human being, kind of  idiot found in the Alps, fr. L christianus Christian]: a person with marked  mental deficiency"              – The Merriam-Webster Dictionary    [*DISCLAIMER* - Contents is not connected with UF or NucEng department.]

Response:

 On the whole, I think you’re right.  But I have one disagreement.  The US special interests in operation desert-shield are not capi- talists, they are corporate-welfare statists.  Capitalism is based

     WHEREAS,           *  Life expectancy of a black male in Harlem is less than              that of a Bangladeshi,           *  The maximum tax rate in the US on earned income has never              exceeded 50%, is now about 3 fifths of that rate, and in              1987 159 people with incomes in excess of $200,000 p/a              paid no income tax (ref. 1),           *  The primary response to the AIDS crisis was an unseemly              Franco-American battle for Big Science prestige and credit,              with most of the shame on the American side as an American              tried to take credit for what was probably a French discov-              ery, as well as a savage lunge for profit on the part of              Burroughs Wellcome (admittedly a multinational, but of course              with a large US presence), rather than care for the victims              of AIDS,           *  The income of absent fathers is, according to Barbara              Ehrenreich, used to determine needs-based eligibility              for college financial aid of children of divorce,      IT STRAINS CREDULITY AND ABUSES THE LANGUAGE TO CALL THE U.S. A      "CORPORATE-WELFARE" STATE.  Corporate, yes: but welfare?? REFERENCES FOR FURTHER READING 1.  New York Times, Oct 22 1989, p. 29, "595 High Earners Avoided Income         Tax in 87", Anonymous

Response:

(The Wanker) writes:    Kuwait supported, encouraged and financed much of the Iraq-Iran war in hopes of Iraq being victorious. The United States supported Iraq/Hussein throughout the war with Iran    The United States and Kuwait are many of, but not exclusively, the reasons Saddam Hussein obtained the power he now holds. Both the US and Kuwait governments are greatly responsible for the Iraqi invasion.

Way to rewrite recent history.  I applaud your rare ability to write whole paragraphs without one shred of truth.  You know the above is BS, and you won’t even answer me to defend it, will you?    US GOVERNMENT PLACES ORDER FOR 20000 CANVAS BODY BAGS…    Who will be filling those bags?    18, 19 and 20 year old human beings…    The reality of War – are YOU prepared to face it?

You should be ashamed of yourself, preying on the natural fears of people just barely away from home, barely adults.  Ironically, the ones you convince will be the least mature, the most gullible.  But you don’t care, do you? John Pulliam

Response:

       US GOVERNMENT PLACES ORDER FOR 20000 CANVAS BODY BAGS…        Who will be filling those bags?        18, 19 and 20 year old human beings…        The reality of War – are YOU prepared to face it? You should be ashamed of yourself, preying on the natural fears of people just barely away from home, barely adults.  Ironically, the ones you convince will be the least mature, the most gullible.  But you don’t care, do you?

Ironically, the ones WHO DIE will be the least mature, the most gullible. But you don’t care, do you? Why THE HELL should she be ashamed for trying to scare people about war. If you don’t think war is about the most terrifying thing in the world, you’re sick. Shawn — Shawn Valentine Hernan            |Wizard-wanna-be           |    STOP Computing and Information Services|Systems & Networks        |the war on drugs!

Response:

  On the whole, I think you’re right.  But I have one disagreement.   The US special interests in operation desert-shield are not capi- talists, they are corporate-welfare statists.  Capitalism is based upon the recognition of individual rights, not upon using the military defense for offensive invasion of foreign countries. Tim Starr

Response: