Activism Change

smiling at strangers in public

Question:

Uhm. One reason people are shy is because they tend to see the world as ‘dangerous’, but dont go for what I say.I might be a wacko trying to put you off guard against my fellow brother wackos On 7 Sep 1999, Steph wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Joe <j…@dfas.com> wrote in message news:37D4871D.7136121B@dfas.com… > > i often smile at a girl i pass on the sidewalk just > > because i think she’s pretty. > I tend to be suspicious of strangers who smile at me without any obvious > reason for doing so. > > to any women reading this: if a guy smiles at you on the sidewalk, > > be nice.  smile back then look away and keep walking.  is that > > so hard? > I smile when I have a reason to smile.  I don’t believe in returning a smile > as one would a tennis serve.  Besides, there are many weird people in the > world, some of whom like to smile at strangers, and I don’t want to > encourage any psychos. > Stephanie

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Response:

Steph wrote: > Joe <j…@dfas.com> wrote in message news:37D4871D.7136121B@dfas.com… > > i often smile at a girl i pass on the sidewalk just > > because i think she’s pretty. > I tend to be suspicious of strangers who smile at me without any obvious > reason for doing so.

that’s pretty sad.  when somebody smiles at me, i interpret it as warmth and friendliness, and return it without hesitation, reflexively. > > to any women reading this: if a guy smiles at you on the sidewalk, > > be nice.  smile back then look away and keep walking.  is that > > so hard? > I smile when I have a reason to smile.  I don’t believe in returning a smile > as one would a tennis serve.

you sound very selfish >  Besides, there are many weird people in the > world, some of whom like to smile at strangers, and I don’t want to > encourage any psychos.

you live in fear.  i feel sorry for you.  you assume somebody is a psycho instead of just a warm friendly human being. do you really think a smile is going to cause somebody to abuct you and kill you?  what could happen to you on a busy city street? i pity your warped view of people and the world joe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Stephanie

Response:

Ben Grayson wrote: > On 7 Sep 1999 12:21:03 -0500, "Steph" <removereflo…@chickmail.com> wrote: > >Joe <j…@dfas.com> wrote in message news:37D4871D.7136121B@dfas.com… > >> i often smile at a girl i pass on the sidewalk just > >> because i think she’s pretty. > >I tend to be suspicious of strangers who smile at me without any obvious > >reason for doing so. > Me too and I’m a guy . I don’t trust women who smile too much at men they > don’t know myself, not to mention men too. Ofttimes, this is nothing but a deception > of one manner or another, as I have learned the hard way

it’s sad that you view a smile as a manipulation to be feared.  i pity you. > There are some people who go though life smiling all the time, but I have learned > that that does not always mean they are satisfied or happy. Oftentimes a smile is a > way to lower the defenses of another person, in order to deceive them or rip them off > in some manner or other.

that’s a pretty twisted outlook.  how is smiling at somebody walking down the street going to get you deceived or ripped off?  yeah, if they then stop me and try to engage me, i’d turn and walk away.  but i have NOTHING to fear in smiling or returning a smile from somebody i pass in the street.  you are a wimp. > A good point in case would be that b*stard, serial killer Ted Bundy, who killed at > least 25 (some say closer to 100 ) women,  may he fry in hell forever. His well > rehearsed smiling, combined with his good looks allowed him to trick these poor > victims into his car… and to their deaths.

we’re not talking about getting into strangers cars, which is stupid.  we’re talking about simply returning a friendly smile as you pass somebody on a busy city street. and statistically speaking you’re at LEAST 100 times more likely to get struck by lightening than to meet a ted bundy.  by your logic you should stay inside all day for fear of being struck by lightening > >> to any women reading this: if a guy smiles at you on the sidewalk, > >> be nice.  smile back then look away and keep walking.  is that > >> so hard? > >I smile when I have a reason to smile.  I don’t believe in returning a smile > >as one would a tennis serve.  Besides, there are many weird people in the > >world, some of whom like to smile at strangers, and I don’t want to > >encourage any psychos. > I don’t blame you Stephanie. > Many men seem to think that a smile, any smile,  from a woman is > a come-on.

i don’t at all.  i interpret it as human warmth.  nothing more, nothing less. i think you guys are very fearful, suspicious people, and i pity you.  it’s no wonder your shy! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Too bad it doesnt work in reverse for shy guys like me > >Stephanie

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -yakima wrote: > In article <37D4871D.71361…@dfas.com>, Joe <j…@dfas.com> wrote: > > i often smile at a girl i pass on the sidewalk just because i think > > she’s > > pretty.  it’s not that at all that i’m trying to fuck her or date her or > > even > > meet her.  it hurts when they can’t even give me a smile.  like i said, > > i mean nothing by it except, "nice to see you, have a nice day". > > usually they will look quickly away, or totally avoid eye contact > > in the first place.  sometimes they’ll even give me a dirty look. > > and i don’t think i’m giving them a sexy smile.  it’s just a friendly > > smile.  i don’t get alot of dates, and i’m lonely alot.  it would be > > wonderful if women could give me that much: a friendly smile. > > on the few occasions that they do return the smile, it makes me > > feel great.  i don’t understand what the big deal is.  i usually > > interpret > > it as they don’t find me in the least attractive.  but i know if ANYBODY > > smiles at me, any gender, any age, beautiful or not, i would always > > return the smile just out of friendliness.  it seems like a bare minimum > > people could do in civil society.  sometimes our society seems so > > cold and selfish.  sometimes i even smile at women i don’t find > > particularly attractive, just to be friendly, and the result is usually > > the same: coldness. > As edie has pointed out, a woman who doesn’t return your smile may be > shy.  Or she may be preoccupied with a serious problem, or grieving over > the loss of the loved one.  You don’t know that a random stranger means to > snub you, so what good does  it do you to assume that’s what meant?

good point.  but judging by the low response rate i get on smiles, just about every woman on the street must be preoccupied with serious problems. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > sometimes i even smile at guys or nod or > > say hi or something and even they can’t do ANYTHING in > > return to be friendly.  i think our society is pretty fucked up, that > > strangers are not even willing to say "hi" or smile or even nod at > > strangers, even when the person has made a friendly gesture to > > them. > If we lived in a society in which rapists and stalkers didn’t use a > woman’s smile as encouragement ("I can tell she wants me/is in love with > me because she smiled at me"), I _might_ agree with you.   I don’t let the > sickos control my actions, but then I’ve never been burned.   Several > months ago a woman on this group made the mistake of making a few friendly > statements to a guy on this group.  He interpreted this as "She’s in love > with me" and repaid her friendliness by posting sexually explicit > fantasies about her, posting her private email on the newsgroup, and by > going door-to-door (in the neighborhood she casually mentioned on the > group) in an attempt to meet her, despite her numerous requests that he > leave her alone.  I don’t blame other people for being cautious around > strangers.

it’s a sad, sad day indeed when we’re all afraid to simply say "hi" or smile as we pass each other in the street.  it’s a sad, sad day. joe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> -yakima

Response:

i was swearing out of frustration.  of course i don’t swear at people in the street! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Steph wrote: > Joe <j…@asdf.com> wrote in message news:37DB57FD.6556F4CE@asdf.com… > > i can’t change the world. i can do my part, and i have.  but > > one of the biggest parts we can do is just FUCKING SMILE! > Or else what? > For someone who seems to be so willing to smile, you certainly seem to adopt > an aggressive posture. > > is that so fucking hard???? > Only when the person you’re facing is swearing at you. > Stephanie

Response:

that’s exactly how i view it steve.  i’m not looking for attention. it’s just friendliness. and i’m not just talking about smiling.  sometimes it’s just a quick "hi" or "how’s it going".  or even quick eye contact and a nod.  it’s just a way of being nice and trying to make the street place where we feel connected to each other as human beings, instead of a jungle where nobody’s allowed to look at each other or make any other form of contact. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Steve R. wrote: > In article <7rf8gv$3d…@goethe.tau.ac.il>, >   "Oren Eilam" <o…@post.tau.ac.il> wrote: > > Smiling at strangers can be either healthy, or sick. It depends on > > context. > True, and for the most part the context is such that smiling at people > is healthy.  It’s just that we have been trained to be highly > individualistic and in some ways distrustful of others in our culture, > that smiling may come across as suspicious. > Granted there are individuals who are disturbed and may misinterpret > friendly gestures and smiling as sexual advances (as our good friend > Robert Maas did here) but these people are in the minority. > Most people are quite OK, and would appreciate random acts of kindness > and simple friendly manners from others, including "strangers" (God I > hate that word) it’s just that they’ve been programmed by our society to > be overly individualistic. >  One can build walls of theories about how > much > > our society is fucked and should be replaced by a better one, but that > > allowes not even the slightest release from being ought not to digress > the > > rules, as they are at present. > Sorry, but I don’t agree.  First of all, the rules are not always > written down and even you mention that they contain some ambiguity.  So > if we have ambiguous social rules that have some room for interpration, > then who’s to say that one doesn’t have the slightest release from them? > Secondly, there are those of us who are interested in norming the norms > of society, and changing the ‘rules’ to suit a more humane and > cooperative way of living.  After all, how did the rules start?  Who > made up the rules?  Is there an alternative set of rules than can be > followed? > > Why being smiled at is annoying? Because it forces the other person to > turn > > his attention to a target person who wants nothing but attention. > You are making the assumption that the person who is iniatiating the > smilng is doing so out of self-interest.  Not surprising in an overly > individualistic and competitive society, that so many people absorb > these memes. > Suppose that such a person view "strangers" as fellow human beings and > recognizes that we share similar life experiences – not to mention we > share the same planet.  Thus, from such a community view, smiling at a > "stranger" would represent a genuinely friendly gesture of _giving_ > attention to somebody else. > Steve > — > "Keep track of every cent that comes into or goes out of your life" >   – Joe D & Vicki R, "Your Money or Your Life" > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Joe <j…@adsf.com> wrote in message news:37D983BA.F1739FE5@adsf.com… > that’s pretty sad.  when somebody smiles at me, i interpret > it as warmth and friendliness, and return it without hesitation, > reflexively.

I’m too much of a realist to do that. > you sound very selfish

No, I’m just very sincere.  I’m not an actress. > you live in fear.

No, I live in the real world. > i feel sorry for you.  you assume somebody is a psycho > instead of just a warm friendly human being.

You need not feel sorry for me.  I don’t feel sorry for myself. > do you really think a smile is going to cause somebody > to abuct you and kill you?

Hmm… who said anything about abductions and killing? > i pity your warped view of people and the world

I don’t require your pity, thanks. Stephanie

Response:

Joe <j…@asdf.com> wrote in message news:37DB57FD.6556F4CE@asdf.com… > i can’t change the world. i can do my part, and i have.  but > one of the biggest parts we can do is just FUCKING SMILE!

Or else what? For someone who seems to be so willing to smile, you certainly seem to adopt an aggressive posture. > is that so fucking hard????

Only when the person you’re facing is swearing at you. Stephanie

Response:

Joe <j…@adsf.com> writes: > yakima wrote: > > As edie has pointed out, a woman who doesn’t return your smile may be > > shy.  Or she may be preoccupied with a serious problem, or grieving over > > the loss of the loved one.  You don’t know that a random stranger means to > > snub you, so what good does  it do you to assume that’s what meant? > good point.  but judging by the low response rate i get on smiles, just about > every woman on the street must be preoccupied with serious problems.

There’s also the question of how you do it, when you do it and where you do it.  There’s more than one way to go about it, and there are some situations where it is less appropriate than others to smile randomly at someone. — For info about this service, see http://www.twwells.com/anon/ or e-mail: h…@anon.twwells.com   — for an automatically returned help message ad…@anon.twwells.com  – for the service’s administrator ano…@anon.twwells.com — anonymous mail to the administrator

Response:

In article <fPbB3.16426$E8.563…@newscene.newscene.com>,   "Steph" <removereflo…@chickmail.com> wrote: > I tend to be suspicious of strangers who smile at me without any obvious > reason for doing so.

In our society, this is quite commonplace.  There needs to be a reason for almost everything.  Spontaneous acts of kindness and undirected gestures tend to be regarded as suspicious, and a ‘what is that person up to’ attitude prevails. While I’m not accusing you personally of holding this attitude, it is quite commonplace for people to think like this while living in a social climate of distrust towards others. — "Keep track of every cent that comes into or goes out of your life"   – Joe D & Vicki R, "Your Money or Your Life" Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

My apologies if this appears twice.  Deja has been eating some of my posts lately. In article <37D98601.89767…@adsf.com>,   Joe <j…@adsf.com> wrote: > yakima wrote: > > In article <37D4871D.71361…@dfas.com>, Joe <j…@dfas.com> wrote: > > As edie has pointed out, a woman who doesn’t return your smile may be > > shy.  Or she may be preoccupied with a serious problem, or grieving over > > the loss of the loved one.  You don’t know that a random stranger means to > > snub you, so what good does  it do you to assume that’s what meant? > good point.  but judging by the low response rate i get on smiles, just about > every woman on the street must be preoccupied with serious problems.

So that’s _their_ problem.  Nowhere is it required that _you_ have to be dragged down with them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > strangers are not even willing to say "hi" or smile or even nod at > > > strangers, even when the person has made a friendly gesture to > > > them. > > If we lived in a society in which rapists and stalkers didn’t use a > > woman’s smile as encouragement ("I can tell she wants me/is in love with > > me because she smiled at me"), I _might_ agree with you.   I don’t let the > > sickos control my actions, but then I’ve never been burned.   Several > > months ago a woman on this group made the mistake of making a few friendly > > statements to a guy on this group.  He interpreted this as "She’s in love > > with me" and repaid her friendliness by posting sexually explicit > > fantasies about her, posting her private email on the newsgroup, and by > > going door-to-door (in the neighborhood she casually mentioned on the > > group) in an attempt to meet her, despite her numerous requests that he > > leave her alone.  I don’t blame other people for being cautious around > > strangers. > it’s a sad, sad day indeed when we’re all afraid to simply say "hi" or smile > as we pass each other in the street.  it’s a sad, sad day.

Well, here’s something you can _do_ about it.  If your local sex-abuse- prevention center is anything like the one here in Phoenix, they are in desperate need of volunteers and donations.  They do great work.  The local center sponsors educational programs at boys and girls clubs, and at one program this week, a young girl who had been molested by a counselor at the Boys and Girls club finally found the courage to tell someone.  Because she did, there is one child molester who no longer has access to children–which makes this world a safer place for us all.   Making the world a safer place makes it easier for people to be friendly to strangers, without fears of negative repercussions of doing so. -yakima

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Steve R. wrote:> > In article <37D4871D.71361…@dfas.com>, > >   Joe <j…@dfas.com> wrote: > > <snipped stuff on smiling and eye contact> > > Well I gotta say kudos for being brave and making the effort.  You > > should pat yourself on the back for this.  I’ve just started smiling at > > women as I pass by them on campus – and for the most part the responses > > have been great (and boy is it a great feeling!) > > It took me awhile to get the courage to do this – last year I remember > > having an online "NLP" chat session with Marc M., and smiling at women > > was one of the goals I was working on.  Turns out after months of > > rationalizing and excessive analyzing, I finally just said let’s drop > > the excuses and go out and smile at people and see what happens. > > Turns out the responses were positive – although not everyone smiles > > back I have noticed many women giving me signals, and it’s a great > > feeling.  Also I have practiced striking up conversations in lineups > > and in classes – doing this is easy and fun for me now.  It really > > isn’t that big of a deal.  Shy people tend to get so worked up over how > > they’re coming across that they overhype really small things.  The way > > out of this is through practicing social skills, thinking in new ways, > > and changing behaviors.

ok. but i have to be really amused to perform truly felt smiles and i have to be really stuck up to fake smiles on demand. thos just don’t happen often enough. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > I think that genuinelly smiling at people is a great iniatitive to > > change things around for the better – and show that you in fact care > > and look out for others.  It’s too bad that not everyone smiles back, > > but then again maybe they’re too self-absorbed > > On another note – what really helped me with striking up conversations > > with strangers and smiling was reframing my belief from stranger –> > > fellow human being.  Although not apparent in our culture, we really > > are in on life together, and just having this belief is enough to spill > > over into my behavior and take more social risks to get to know people. > > > sometimes i even smile at women i don’t find > > > particularly attractive, just to be friendly, and the result is > > usually > > > the same: coldness. > > Your society viewpoint is pretty bang on wrt the coldness.  We are > > being shaped to be overly individualistic, hence the selfishness. > >  i think our society is pretty fucked up, that > > > strangers are not even willing to say "hi" or smile or even nod at > > > strangers, even when the person has made a friendly gesture to > > > them.

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Response:

In article <yakima-1109991636450…@user-38ldjb7.dialup.mindspring.com>,   yak…@my-dejanews.com (yakima) wrote: > Making the world a safer place makes it easier for people to be friendly > to strangers, without fears of negative repercussions of doing so.

Yakima’s advice is pretty much bang-on here – what you (Joe) also might want to look into is volunteering for a homeless shelter, and help out by participating in preparing meals, setting up, talking to the people, whichever is right for your temperament. Or check out other volunteer opportunities in which to get involved and actively do something to make this world a better place. I do agree with you that our society is pretty messed up, but sitting around isn’t going to do much good in order to change it.  Neither is complaining that women aren’t smiling at you.  You need to get involved and do something – whether it’s small local acts or more politically oriented activism.  Get involved with other like-minded people, and make friends and contacts through volunteer work. Steve — "Keep track of every cent that comes into or goes out of your life"   – Joe D & Vicki R, "Your Money or Your Life" Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

In article <7rf8gv$3d…@goethe.tau.ac.il>,   "Oren Eilam" <o…@post.tau.ac.il> wrote: > Smiling at strangers can be either healthy, or sick. It depends on > context.

True, and for the most part the context is such that smiling at people is healthy.  It’s just that we have been trained to be highly individualistic and in some ways distrustful of others in our culture, that smiling may come across as suspicious. Granted there are individuals who are disturbed and may misinterpret friendly gestures and smiling as sexual advances (as our good friend Robert Maas did here) but these people are in the minority. Most people are quite OK, and would appreciate random acts of kindness and simple friendly manners from others, including "strangers" (God I hate that word) it’s just that they’ve been programmed by our society to be overly individualistic.  One can build walls of theories about how much > our society is fucked and should be replaced by a better one, but that > allowes not even the slightest release from being ought not to digress the > rules, as they are at present.

Sorry, but I don’t agree.  First of all, the rules are not always written down and even you mention that they contain some ambiguity.  So if we have ambiguous social rules that have some room for interpration, then who’s to say that one doesn’t have the slightest release from them? Secondly, there are those of us who are interested in norming the norms of society, and changing the ‘rules’ to suit a more humane and cooperative way of living.  After all, how did the rules start?  Who made up the rules?  Is there an alternative set of rules than can be followed? > Why being smiled at is annoying? Because it forces the other person to turn > his attention to a target person who wants nothing but attention.

You are making the assumption that the person who is iniatiating the smilng is doing so out of self-interest.  Not surprising in an overly individualistic and competitive society, that so many people absorb these memes. Suppose that such a person view "strangers" as fellow human beings and recognizes that we share similar life experiences – not to mention we share the same planet.  Thus, from such a community view, smiling at a "stranger" would represent a genuinely friendly gesture of _giving_ attention to somebody else. Steve — "Keep track of every cent that comes into or goes out of your life"   – Joe D & Vicki R, "Your Money or Your Life" Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Steve R. wrote: > In article <yakima-1109991636450…@user-38ldjb7.dialup.mindspring.com>, >   yak…@my-dejanews.com (yakima) wrote: > > Making the world a safer place makes it easier for people to be > friendly > > to strangers, without fears of negative repercussions of doing so. > Yakima’s advice is pretty much bang-on here – what you (Joe) also might > want to look into is volunteering for a homeless shelter, and help out > by participating in preparing meals, setting up, talking to the people, > whichever is right for your temperament.

guess what?  in college i organized a group of 20 people to prepare a huge meal for several nights at a homeless shelter. > Or check out other volunteer opportunities in which to get involved and > actively do something to make this world a better place. > I do agree with you that our society is pretty messed up, but sitting > around isn’t going to do much good in order to change it.  Neither is > complaining that women aren’t smiling at you.  You need to get involved > and do something – whether it’s small local acts or more politically > oriented activism.

guess what?  i worked for 9 months for a progressive, grassroots political citizens lobby. > Get involved with other like-minded people, and make > friends and contacts through volunteer work.

guess what?  i have done all that. and still people don’t want to smile at each other in public. i can’t change the world. i can do my part, and i have.  but one of the biggest parts we can do is just FUCKING SMILE! is that so fucking hard???? joe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Steve > — > "Keep track of every cent that comes into or goes out of your life" >   – Joe D & Vicki R, "Your Money or Your Life" > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. Steve R. wrote: > In article <yakima-1109991636450…@user-38ldjb7.dialup.mindspring.com>, >   yak…@my-dejanews.com (yakima) wrote: > > Making the world a safer place makes it easier for people to be > friendly > > to strangers, without fears of negative repercussions of doing so. > Yakima’s advice is pretty much bang-on here – what you (Joe) also might > want to look into is volunteering for a homeless shelter, and help out > by participating in preparing meals, setting up, talking to the people, > whichever is right for your temperament. > Or check out other volunteer opportunities in which to get involved and > actively do something to make this world a better place. > I do agree with you that our society is pretty messed up, but sitting > around isn’t going to do much good in order to change it.  Neither is > complaining that women aren’t smiling at you.  You need to get involved > and do something – whether it’s small local acts or more politically > oriented activism.  Get involved with other like-minded people, and make > friends and contacts through volunteer work. > Steve > — > "Keep track of every cent that comes into or goes out of your life" >   – Joe D & Vicki R, "Your Money or Your Life" > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

In article <37D4871D.71361…@dfas.com>,   Joe <j…@dfas.com> wrote: <snipped stuff on smiling and eye contact> Well I gotta say kudos for being brave and making the effort.  You should pat yourself on the back for this.  I’ve just started smiling at women as I pass by them on campus – and for the most part the responses have been great (and boy is it a great feeling!) It took me awhile to get the courage to do this – last year I remember having an online "NLP" chat session with Marc M., and smiling at women was one of the goals I was working on.  Turns out after months of rationalizing and excessive analyzing, I finally just said let’s drop the excuses and go out and smile at people and see what happens. Turns out the responses were positive – although not everyone smiles back I have noticed many women giving me signals, and it’s a great feeling.  Also I have practiced striking up conversations in lineups and in classes – doing this is easy and fun for me now.  It really isn’t that big of a deal.  Shy people tend to get so worked up over how they’re coming across that they overhype really small things.  The way out of this is through practicing social skills, thinking in new ways, and changing behaviors. > sometimes our society seems so > cold and selfish.

This is quite a valid perception actually.  In Canada it’s a little different than the U.S. (I’m assuming you’re from the States) in that our system is structured more towards a democratic-socialist model – which in turn affects social relations to be more positive and community-oriented.  Best example is with our universal health-care system.  But, sad to say, we are becoming more of a cold society with the changes in the political and economic structures *especially* the globalization process and its ‘business-friendly’ economic efficiency iniatitives. Western society, in general, trains people to be individualistic and competitive.  Thus, we look out more for ourselves than for others. While it’s important to have a sense of individuality, we are still social beings and need a communal sense of ‘being in on life together’ to survive.  Too much of an emphasis on the self can be dangerous however, and it leads to the creation of an overly cold society. I think that genuinelly smiling at people is a great iniatitive to change things around for the better – and show that you in fact care and look out for others.  It’s too bad that not everyone smiles back, but then again maybe they’re too self-absorbed On another note – what really helped me with striking up conversations with strangers and smiling was reframing my belief from stranger –> fellow human being.  Although not apparent in our culture, we really are in on life together, and just having this belief is enough to spill over into my behavior and take more social risks to get to know people. > sometimes i even smile at women i don’t find > particularly attractive, just to be friendly, and the result is usually > the same: coldness.

Your society viewpoint is pretty bang on wrt the coldness.  We are being shaped to be overly individualistic, hence the selfishness.  i think our society is pretty fucked up, that > strangers are not even willing to say "hi" or smile or even nod at > strangers, even when the person has made a friendly gesture to > them.

Yeppers.  I wouldn’t go so far as to say that society is f*cked, but there are plenty of social conditioning factors that exacerbate shyness and shape people to be overly cold and selfish. What I’ve realized though, personally, is that lashing out against society is counterproductive because it doesn’t solve the problem.  I even wrote about 20 or so posts called ‘Real Life System Stories’ which were to that effect. I’m still pretty much a social critic, but I’ve discovered that it’s preferable to hold a moderate stance, and come up with alternative styles of living, rather than just say society is fucked.  It reminds me of an NLP quote of ‘You have to know what to think of in order to know what *not* to think of’.  That is, by me rebelling against society I’m still as much a part of it as by championing it. What I’ve found useful is to transcend mere extremes (society is fine, society is not OK) into new and alternative ways of thinking and living.  Here’s an example:  I can choose to specialize in one field, get a job, get married, have two cars, a cat and a dog (the traditional "normal" life in society) if I want, or I can perhaps take more courses across the board, travel around the world, work multiple careers, get involved in volunteer work, and perhaps marry later.  Instead of splitting life up into categories and treating each one as seperate, I can integrate all parts of my life into a whole.  I can find people who share my values, and find my alternative niche in life. Anyways, hope that little spiel made some sense :- — "Keep track of every cent that comes into or goes out of your life"   – Joe D & Vicki R, "Your Money or Your Life" Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

yes, it made sense and was interesting.  thanks for validating my viewpoint and yes, i am probably too cynical at times.  it just is so frustrating that people can’t just be a little warmer and friendlier to each other.  it doesn’t seem like such a stretch just to return a smile, a "hi", or a simple nod with eye contact, but my experience is by far the majority of people can’t or won’t.  i guess we’re living in a jungle. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Steve R. wrote: > In article <37D4871D.71361…@dfas.com>, >   Joe <j…@dfas.com> wrote: > <snipped stuff on smiling and eye contact> > Well I gotta say kudos for being brave and making the effort.  You > should pat yourself on the back for this.  I’ve just started smiling at > women as I pass by them on campus – and for the most part the responses > have been great (and boy is it a great feeling!) > It took me awhile to get the courage to do this – last year I remember > having an online "NLP" chat session with Marc M., and smiling at women > was one of the goals I was working on.  Turns out after months of > rationalizing and excessive analyzing, I finally just said let’s drop > the excuses and go out and smile at people and see what happens. > Turns out the responses were positive – although not everyone smiles > back I have noticed many women giving me signals, and it’s a great > feeling.  Also I have practiced striking up conversations in lineups > and in classes – doing this is easy and fun for me now.  It really > isn’t that big of a deal.  Shy people tend to get so worked up over how > they’re coming across that they overhype really small things.  The way > out of this is through practicing social skills, thinking in new ways, > and changing behaviors. > > sometimes our society seems so > > cold and selfish. > This is quite a valid perception actually.  In Canada it’s a little > different than the U.S. (I’m assuming you’re from the States) in that > our system is structured more towards a democratic-socialist model – > which in turn affects social relations to be more positive and > community-oriented.  Best example is with our universal health-care > system.  But, sad to say, we are becoming more of a cold society with > the changes in the political and economic structures *especially* the > globalization process and its ‘business-friendly’ economic efficiency > iniatitives. > Western society, in general, trains people to be individualistic and > competitive.  Thus, we look out more for ourselves than for others. > While it’s important to have a sense of individuality, we are still > social beings and need a communal sense of ‘being in on life together’ > to survive.  Too much of an emphasis on the self can be dangerous > however, and it leads to the creation of an overly cold society. > I think that genuinelly smiling at people is a great iniatitive to > change things around for the better – and show that you in fact care > and look out for others.  It’s too bad that not everyone smiles back, > but then again maybe they’re too self-absorbed > On another note – what really helped me with striking up conversations > with strangers and smiling was reframing my belief from stranger –> > fellow human being.  Although not apparent in our culture, we really > are in on life together, and just having this belief is enough to spill > over into my behavior and take more social risks to get to know people. > > sometimes i even smile at women i don’t find > > particularly attractive, just to be friendly, and the result is > usually > > the same: coldness. > Your society viewpoint is pretty bang on wrt the coldness.  We are > being shaped to be overly individualistic, hence the selfishness. >  i think our society is pretty fucked up, that > > strangers are not even willing to say "hi" or smile or even nod at > > strangers, even when the person has made a friendly gesture to > > them. > Yeppers.  I wouldn’t go so far as to say that society is f*cked, but > there are plenty of social conditioning factors that exacerbate shyness > and shape people to be overly cold and selfish. > What I’ve realized though, personally, is that lashing out against > society is counterproductive because it doesn’t solve the problem.  I > even wrote about 20 or so posts called ‘Real Life System Stories’ which > were to that effect. > I’m still pretty much a social critic, but I’ve discovered that it’s > preferable to hold a moderate stance, and come up with alternative > styles of living, rather than just say society is fucked.  It reminds > me of an NLP quote of ‘You have to know what to think of in order to > know what *not* to think of’.  That is, by me rebelling against society > I’m still as much a part of it as by championing it. > What I’ve found useful is to transcend mere extremes (society is fine, > society is not OK) into new and alternative ways of thinking and > living.  Here’s an example:  I can choose to specialize in one field, > get a job, get married, have two cars, a cat and a dog (the traditional > "normal" life in society) if I want, or I can perhaps take more courses > across the board, travel around the world, work multiple careers, get > involved in volunteer work, and perhaps marry later.  Instead of > splitting life up into categories and treating each one as seperate, I > can integrate all parts of my life into a whole.  I can find people who > share my values, and find my alternative niche in life. > Anyways, hope that little spiel made some sense :- > — > "Keep track of every cent that comes into or goes out of your life" >   – Joe D & Vicki R, "Your Money or Your Life" > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

it just shows how sick our society is.  you smile or say hi at somebody and they think you’re out to get them – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Steve R. wrote: > In article <fPbB3.16426$E8.563…@newscene.newscene.com>, >   "Steph" <removereflo…@chickmail.com> wrote: > > I tend to be suspicious of strangers who smile at me without any > obvious > > reason for doing so. > In our society, this is quite commonplace.  There needs to be a reason > for almost everything.  Spontaneous acts of kindness and undirected > gestures tend to be regarded as suspicious, and a ‘what is that person > up to’ attitude prevails. > While I’m not accusing you personally of holding this attitude, it is > quite commonplace for people to think like this while living in a > social climate of distrust towards others. > — > "Keep track of every cent that comes into or goes out of your life" >   – Joe D & Vicki R, "Your Money or Your Life" > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dr Art wrote: > edie <tues…@banet.net> wrote in message > news:37D3D4F0.5034515E@banet.net… > > I’ll smile back only if I’ve seen him around, i.e. office building, > gym, > etc.  But no. > > Not a complete stranger on the street.  Never.  Well, never say > never but > *hugely* > > unlikely.  Like I said, you just don’t do that in NYC. > I live in NYC too. And I have to say that I wouldn’t stare at a girl I > don’t > know unless I thought she was attractive or that she was noticing me. > [Staring at freaks is a sort of unkind] I don’t smile easily at > strangers > either. Usually, to smile at someone, I have to see something funny in > that > person or recall something funny from our mutual experiences in the > past. > But I guess that’s just me. > Dr Art

i often smile at a girl i pass on the sidewalk just because i think she’s pretty.  it’s not that at all that i’m trying to fuck her or date her or even meet her.  it hurts when they can’t even give me a smile.  like i said, i mean nothing by it except, "nice to see you, have a nice day". usually they will look quickly away, or totally avoid eye contact in the first place.  sometimes they’ll even give me a dirty look. and i don’t think i’m giving them a sexy smile.  it’s just a friendly smile.  i don’t get alot of dates, and i’m lonely alot.  it would be wonderful if women could give me that much: a friendly smile. on the few occasions that they do return the smile, it makes me feel great.  i don’t understand what the big deal is.  i usually interpret it as they don’t find me in the least attractive.  but i know if ANYBODY smiles at me, any gender, any age, beautiful or not, i would always return the smile just out of friendliness.  it seems like a bare minimum people could do in civil society.  sometimes our society seems so cold and selfish.  sometimes i even smile at women i don’t find particularly attractive, just to be friendly, and the result is usually the same: coldness.  sometimes i even smile at guys or nod or say hi or something and even they can’t do ANYTHING in return to be friendly.  i think our society is pretty fucked up, that strangers are not even willing to say "hi" or smile or even nod at strangers, even when the person has made a friendly gesture to them. to any women reading this: if a guy smiles at you on the sidewalk, be nice.  smile back then look away and keep walking.  is that so hard?  you’ll probably make his day alot brighter. joe

Response:

Mushie wrote: > Joe wrote: > > to any women reading this: if a guy smiles at you on the sidewalk, > > be nice.  smile back then look away and keep walking.  is that > > so hard?  you’ll probably make his day alot brighter. > > joe > Done. Standard practice here. > [Marsha smiles at joe]

THANK YOU!

Response:

Joe wrote: > to any women reading this: if a guy smiles at you on the sidewalk, > be nice.  smile back then look away and keep walking.  is that > so hard?  you’ll probably make his day alot brighter. > joe

Done. Standard practice here. [Marsha smiles at joe]

Response:

Joe <j…@dfas.com> wrote in message news:37D4871D.7136121B@dfas.com… > i often smile at a girl i pass on the sidewalk just > because i think she’s pretty.

I tend to be suspicious of strangers who smile at me without any obvious reason for doing so. > to any women reading this: if a guy smiles at you on the sidewalk, > be nice.  smile back then look away and keep walking.  is that > so hard?

I smile when I have a reason to smile.  I don’t believe in returning a smile as one would a tennis serve.  Besides, there are many weird people in the world, some of whom like to smile at strangers, and I don’t want to encourage any psychos. Stephanie

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In article <37D4871D.71361…@dfas.com>, Joe <j…@dfas.com> wrote: > i often smile at a girl i pass on the sidewalk just because i think > she’s > pretty.  it’s not that at all that i’m trying to fuck her or date her or > even > meet her.  it hurts when they can’t even give me a smile.  like i said, > i mean nothing by it except, "nice to see you, have a nice day". > usually they will look quickly away, or totally avoid eye contact > in the first place.  sometimes they’ll even give me a dirty look. > and i don’t think i’m giving them a sexy smile.  it’s just a friendly > smile.  i don’t get alot of dates, and i’m lonely alot.  it would be > wonderful if women could give me that much: a friendly smile. > on the few occasions that they do return the smile, it makes me > feel great.  i don’t understand what the big deal is.  i usually > interpret > it as they don’t find me in the least attractive.  but i know if ANYBODY > smiles at me, any gender, any age, beautiful or not, i would always > return the smile just out of friendliness.  it seems like a bare minimum > people could do in civil society.  sometimes our society seems so > cold and selfish.  sometimes i even smile at women i don’t find > particularly attractive, just to be friendly, and the result is usually > the same: coldness.

As edie has pointed out, a woman who doesn’t return your smile may be shy.  Or she may be preoccupied with a serious problem, or grieving over the loss of the loved one.  You don’t know that a random stranger means to snub you, so what good does  it do you to assume that’s what meant? > sometimes i even smile at guys or nod or > say hi or something and even they can’t do ANYTHING in > return to be friendly.  i think our society is pretty fucked up, that > strangers are not even willing to say "hi" or smile or even nod at > strangers, even when the person has made a friendly gesture to > them.

If we lived in a society in which rapists and stalkers didn’t use a woman’s smile as encouragement ("I can tell she wants me/is in love with me because she smiled at me"), I _might_ agree with you.   I don’t let the sickos control my actions, but then I’ve never been burned.   Several months ago a woman on this group made the mistake of making a few friendly statements to a guy on this group.  He interpreted this as "She’s in love with me" and repaid her friendliness by posting sexually explicit fantasies about her, posting her private email on the newsgroup, and by going door-to-door (in the neighborhood she casually mentioned on the group) in an attempt to meet her, despite her numerous requests that he leave her alone.  I don’t blame other people for being cautious around strangers.   -yakima

Response:

On 7 Sep 1999 12:21:03 -0500, "Steph" <removereflo…@chickmail.com> wrote: >Joe <j…@dfas.com> wrote in message news:37D4871D.7136121B@dfas.com… >> i often smile at a girl i pass on the sidewalk just >> because i think she’s pretty. >I tend to be suspicious of strangers who smile at me without any obvious >reason for doing so.

Me too and I’m a guy . I don’t trust women who smile too much at men they don’t know myself, not to mention men too. Ofttimes, this is nothing but a deception of one manner or another, as I have learned the hard way   There are some people who go though life smiling all the time, but I have learned that that does not always mean they are satisfied or happy. Oftentimes a smile is a way to lower the defenses of another person, in order to deceive them or rip them off in some manner or other. A good point in case would be that b*stard, serial killer Ted Bundy, who killed at least 25 (some say closer to 100 ) women,  may he fry in hell forever. His well rehearsed smiling, combined with his good looks allowed him to trick these poor victims into his car… and to their deaths. >> to any women reading this: if a guy smiles at you on the sidewalk, >> be nice.  smile back then look away and keep walking.  is that >> so hard? >I smile when I have a reason to smile.  I don’t believe in returning a smile >as one would a tennis serve.  Besides, there are many weird people in the >world, some of whom like to smile at strangers, and I don’t want to >encourage any psychos.

I don’t blame you Stephanie.   Many men seem to think that a smile, any smile,  from a woman is a come-on. Too bad it doesnt work in reverse for shy guys like me – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Stephanie

Response:

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