Sue the Sierra Club for Negligence over MTBE Advocacy?

Question:

I doubt the Sierra club could be sued for what is essentially a State action.

Not to mention their 1st amendment rights. Sheesh. You can’t sue the Sierra Club for voicing their political opinions. If you could, every lobbying group in the country would be bankrupt and behind bars (maybe not a bad idea, but that’s a different thread). One could make a case for manslaughter charges against the State of California, if your information is correct…although there is probably sovereign immunity.

Not to mention a lack of dead people. I’m no legal expert, but I’m pretty sure that manslaughter requires at least one dead person. — Carey Gregory

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I doubt the Sierra club could be sued for what is essentially a State action. Not to mention their 1st amendment rights. Sheesh. You can’t sue the Sierra Club for voicing their political opinions. If you could, every lobbying group in the country would be bankrupt and behind bars (maybe not a bad idea, but that’s a different thread). One could make a case for manslaughter charges against the State of California, if your information is correct…although there is probably sovereign immunity. Not to mention a lack of dead people. I’m no legal expert, but I’m pretty sure that manslaughter requires at least one dead person.

If this is the same Nobody who advocates steroids for anyone with less than an 18" bicep (what side effects????), you have raised subtleties far beyond his ability to cognate. — Carey Gregory

– Futilely Espousing God’s Word on Pre-Purchase Epiphany, Kristofer Hogg, ms rd, Who can’t safely boil water, much less cook! More inciteful ravings, but with a plumb, at http://www.holobarre.com Nice Bodies are, well, nice, but still largely irrelevant.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip] Is a negligence suit against Sierra Club possible? What business did the Sierra Club have advocating MTBE when they had done no scientific study of the effects of MTBE on the water supply, on animals, plants, and humans? Should they have known better? On the other hand, why not sue the EPA? The Sierra Club is clearly a special interest organization who lobby for their own agenda. The EPA is supposed to protect the public’s interest as far as the environment is concerned. This includes weeding out the ‘junk science’ that alot of groups use to back up their claims. The Sierra Club may have believed that their reccomendation was in the best interest of thge environment, but you will probably have to prove intentional malice to get any $$ out of them. It was an honest (but stupid) mistake. Their credibility will no doubt suffer enough. On the other hand, the credibility of the EPA will suffer too. The next time they create a new regulation, the response will be "remember MTBE". Gasoline oxygenates are a pretty bad idea anyway. They may work in theory, but in practice, most newer cars with exhaust oxygen sensors just detect a mixture imbalance and enrichen the fuel mixture to compensate. With older cars the equivalent can be achieved manually. When I took mine in for a tuneup, the mechanic just put it on an exhaust analyser and tweaked the mixture until the output read within spec. This was done in January, in preperation for an emissions test (which I passed with no problem, with a grey-market car without any emissionm controls or catalytic converters, but thats another story). The down side to this is that I will drive this thing all summer (no oxygenate in the gas) and then it will be too rich.

This is an interesting point. Strictly speaking, oxygenated fuel also has fewer BTU’s/gallon, offsetting the emissions benefits. By how much, I don’t know, but when I used to track these things, I noticed a distinct drop in my mpg’s, 5-10%. If emissions are not cut down by at least that much, you have a wash or even a worse environmental case. But your point is well taken: I don’t know if this is inherent in the fuel, or if the car’s 1990 computer is doing it. I always thought oxygenated fuel was kind of dumb, anyway, unless you do the real deal and use a renewable fuel like methanol/ethanol <hiccup. But what is the source of MTBE in the water supply, etc.? Spills? Emissions? It would be hard to fault the Sierra club for things like spills. — Futilely Espousing God’s Word on Pre-Purchase Epiphany, Kristofer Hogg, ms rd, Who can’t safely boil water, much less cook! More inciteful ravings, but with a plumb, at http://www.holobarre.com Nice Bodies are, well, nice, but still largely irrelevant. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — "Beam me up, Scotty! It ate my phaser!"

Response:

The Sierra Club has lobbied for several years on behalf of putting MTBE in gasoline to reduce air pollution. Now Calif. Gov. Davis appears about to place a ban on putting MTBE into Calif. gas (Scripps / McClatchy News Service, March 16). MTBE inclusion has resulted in the shutdown of many municipal wells in several California communities. Its presence is detectable in almost every Calif. waterway. In very small quantities, it makes water unpalatable and is suspected of causing illnesses in people who drink water contaminated with MTBE. Is a negligence suit against Sierra Club possible? What business did the Sierra Club have advocating MTBE when they had done no scientific study of the effects of MTBE on the water supply, on animals, plants, and humans? Should they have known better? I think so! I think the has lost its scientific roots and become a political monster that needs to be stopped– I mean, terminated, given it seems to be advocating actions that threaten the safety of people in California. The best way to terminate the Sierra Club, if possible, is to use a lawsuit. I think John Muir would be ASHAMED of what the Sierra Club has turned into today, a haven for know-nothings and scientifically illerate radicals with socialist-communist agendas. This organization is dangerous and true environmentalists need to WAKE UP and work to CANCEL, TEAR DOWN, DESTROY organizations like Sierra Club that would create a world full of undrinkable water to satify their politically correct inclinations. As a former 20 year member of the S.C., I was called yesterday to renew my membership in the Sierra Club. This is my response. Steve XXXsteve14XXXatXXXXhomeXXXdotXXXcom (remove Xs)

Response:

No. The right to lobby is in the First Amendment (remember "petition the government for a redress of greivances"). If you don’t like what the government does, sue the government. Mr. H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What business did the Sierra Club have advocating MTBE when they had done no scientific study of the effects of MTBE on the water supply, on animals, plants, and humans? Should they have known better? I think so! I think the has lost its scientific roots and become a political monster that needs to be stopped– I mean, terminated, given it seems to be advocating actions that threaten the safety of people in California. The best way to terminate the Sierra Club, if possible, is to use a lawsuit. I think John Muir would be ASHAMED of what the Sierra Club has turned into today, a haven for know-nothings and scientifically illerate radicals with socialist-communist agendas. This organization is dangerous and true environmentalists need to WAKE UP and work to CANCEL, TEAR DOWN, DESTROY organizations like Sierra Club that would create a world full of undrinkable water to satify their politically correct inclinations. As a former 20 year member of the S.C., I was called yesterday to renew my membership in the Sierra Club. This is my response. Steve XXXsteve14XXXatXXXXhomeXXXdotXXXcom (remove Xs)

Response:

Gasoline oxygenates are a pretty bad idea anyway. They may work in theory, but in practice, most newer cars with exhaust oxygen sensors just detect a mixture imbalance and enrichen the fuel mixture to compensate. With older cars the equivalent can be achieved manually. When I took mine in for a tuneup, the mechanic just put it on an exhaust analyser and tweaked the mixture until the output read within spec. This was done in January, in preperation for an emissions test (which I passed with no problem, with a grey-market car without any emissionm controls or catalytic converters, but thats another story). The down side to this is that I will drive this thing all summer (no oxygenate in the gas) and then it will be too rich.

Yes, adding the oxygenates really hasnt done much other than add different pollutants to the enviroment, the MTBE its self as well as others. Not to mention cause problems by making cars run poorly, eat away seals, etc. The reason you can pass emissions without problem is because you maintain your vehicle. State standards are quite a bit different than federal new-car standards. The bulk of emmissions reduction is simply keeping the car ‘in-tune’ and in good working order. If one thinks about it that is just what the electronic control systems do to reduce emmissions, automatically finding the correct settings for any given condition.

Response:

I always thought oxygenated fuel was kind of dumb, anyway, unless you do the real deal and use a renewable fuel like methanol/ethanol <hiccup.

The use of Oxygenated fuel was required by Congress. But what is the source of MTBE in the water supply, etc.? Spills? Emissions? It would be hard to fault the Sierra club for things like spills.

That is part of the arguement that is going on. Some of the aquifer contamination is coming from leaking UST, yet if you are familar with the new UST regulations I find it hard to believe that they are source. But, MTBE has been used in Premium since 1979 some of the ground water contamination must have occured before storage tanks were so stringently monitored There is a different problem with certain recreational lakes/water supplies. Heavy use of jet skis and motor boats in sensitive water supplies appears to be enough to add "MTBE" taste to drinking water. .

Response:

Filed under: Lobbying

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