Filed under: Lobbying
Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is this still hated by all? It pulls my chain a little that eBay take a decent cut from your listings and then through the use of eBay sneak a little more out of you … and I see now that they have updated the T&C so that sellers cannot pass on the charges to the buyer. When you use your CC to pay in a shop you often get charged a small %’age for the transaction. I can see why people hype up the P&P on items, now. Well, for me, it’s no more PayPal … good old fashioned cheques and postal orders will do just fine … no charges on them! I take it you won’t miss the buyers who — like me — just skip right over any auction that doesn’t take PayPal? I skip over the ones that demand PayPal only. Does that even it out?
Might. Who knows? — Ty Who is mostly just a slightly skewed Donna Reed A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. –Edward Abbey
Response:
The biggest problem with it… is that it is very clearly against the terms and conditions they sign when they agree to accept merchant card transactions. They could be reported to their bank and if the bank follows up like they are supposed to, could be a big deal and they might even lose the right to accept cards! But, rather than make trouble and get involved in a mess I don’t care about… I choose to take my business elsewhere, to a reputable shop.. After all, if they are so obvious in their disregard to their own agreements I wouldn’t expect them to honor any agreement I had in a transaction with them either.
Well said! Rita
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…Who knows?
The Shadow? Judy Collins? Lumpy — Hey? Can I Borrow Your Living Room? http://www.digitalcartography.com/house_concert.htm
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Pish. It’s the cost of powerful banking and credit card lobbying. A Years ago, the credit card companies – Visa, MasterCard, American Express – had fraud investigation departments and went after fraudulent use of cards. Then they decided it was more cost effective to leave that up to law enforcement and just spread the cost over all their customers.
I think this is the true kernel of the situation. Credit card companies, by and large, balanced their income from cards with high balances and exhorbitant interest rates against their losses on bad debt (including but not limited to outright fraud) and realized that it was far more profitable to push those cards anywhere they could find an open hand. Now they want the other piece of the same pie: the force of law to accomodate their profligate issuing style by squeezing money out of both hard-working people who’ve hit a bad financial patch *and* those who bought into the spend-spend-spend advertising pitches. — Ty Who is mostly just a slightly skewed Donna Reed A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. –Edward Abbey
Response:
So what’s so great about the mandatory credit counseling? That business was investigated and chastised for their high fees, unethical business practices, and lack of effectiveness – yet a year later everybody in financial trouble has to pay them for their "services?" Great, an added expense for an already financially strapped person.
Most of the for-profit credit counseling agencies are indeed iffy, and a number of them are apparently criminal enterprises in disguise, but the national Consumer Credit Counseling Services (CCCS) agencies are non-profit, highly reputable, and charge *very* minimal fees. Folks with no ability to pay even a low fee will nearly always be seen for free. Most credit union members are eligible for the services of Balance Financial Group, most of whose services are free. Since it’s not a "closed" site, anyone can access the basic information they offer and download various budgeting forms. A surprising number of people really have no idea at all where there money goes, and even basic budgeting is a foreign concept to them. I know that if you make more than the median income in your state, you cannot file Chapter 7. So, if you’re a working stiff buried under a mountain of medical bills, you’re screwed. You’ll never get out from under it.
Yep. I know that a financial troubled Congressman who introduced the bill did so the day after receiving a large loan with amazingly favorable terms from the bank that drafted the legislation. If they wanted to revamp things, why didn’t they at least balance it out with cap on usury level interest rates, and vultures like Capital One who prey on the poor and the stupid?
There was discussion about this, as you know, including the fact that some institutions now charge as much as 30% interest. If anyone ever needed proof that this administration and congress are truly bought and paid for by Big Bidness, the lack of action on usorious charges is utterly convincing. You watch, pretty soon people who are behind on their bills will lose their driving privileges, child visitation rights, etc. etc. I predict that eventually debtors will again be going go to prison. But hey – at least the medical there is paid for. (Unless you’re in Florida, I guess. Then even that’s a toss-up.)
Well, *that* part would require a change in the Constitution, but I agree with your underlying sentiment. I talk pretty much daily with people who’ve had to file for bankruptcy. My own sense of things tracks very closely to the results of a recent study on bankruptcies: most are the result of divorce or significant medical expenses. I haven’t talked to a single person who was blithe or untroubled by having had to file; most were emotionally devastated, and most are still working hard to recover from it. Alex’s ignorance on this topic is no different from his ignorance on most of what he spouts off about here, but it’s particularly egregious because he’s so contemptuous of people who for the most part were managing their finances satisfactorily until they were hit with an unexpected life change. I suspect he’s one of those interesting little people who just knows for certain that *he’d* never ever have to deal with any such problem. — Ty Who is mostly just a slightly skewed Donna Reed A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. –Edward Abbey
Response:
When I buy I ONLY buy if I can use PayPal because I can’t get ripped off. Coffee—–Monitor, wall, keyboard
Bart if your credit ever improves enough you can get a credit card you will find out what I am talking about. I only pay with PP by CC. If they try to burn me a simple phone call is all it takes and the money is returned to me. If they later decide to send me the item it’s up to me to pay them. If you are dishonest, and I am sure it happens, you can get the merchandise, and the money back. When you get done choking ask Mom or Dad. If they have a CC they can explain it to you. — Stupidity should be painful
Response:
"Alex Clayton" wrote … If you are dishonest, and I am sure it happens, you can get the merchandise, and the money back.
And if you do it too often, you get to see inside of a prison. Financial organizations, even bad ones, do not like being ripped off, even by ebayers. — Andrew http://www.weirdity/ebay/
Response:
"Alex Clayton" wrote … If you are dishonest, and I am sure it happens, you can get the merchandise, and the money back. And if you do it too often, you get to see inside of a prison. Financial organizations, even bad ones, do not like being ripped off, even by ebayers. — Andrew http://www.weirdity/ebay/
I would hope so. I would be all for locking up people who abuse this. The abuse is paid for by all of us who are honest. This was why I was glad to see the changes in the bankruptcy laws. I for years have seen too many people who ran up huge CC debt, with no intention of ever paying it back. they would get all the credit they could, then run down and wipe it out, but of course keep all the "neat stuff" they bought. We all pay for that. The really great thing about using a CC is if someone is trying to rip you off, you get your money back very easy. I have only had to do it a few times in my many years, but it was always very well handled by the bank. I years ago bought a item for the car. Paid with PP. After a week I e-mailed the guy, asked if it had been sent. No response. tried another e-mail a few days later, same results. After 2 weeks, I sent one more, said I am through trying, if you do not respond I will figure you had no intention of sending item. Another week went by, so I e-mailed PP first to see if they would handle it. After I filed a claim PP gave me back my money pretty quick, did not have to go through the bank. After they refunded my money seller finally e-mailed me to tell me he had sold a few things, that the other auctions just closed, and that he had mailed everything at the same time. Well I got what I had bid on. So I e-mailed PP, explained it to them, their response to me was "if I wished to pay him I could with either PP or send him a check." I was kind of surprised by that. I being honest e-mailed the guy, said I would use PP to send him the money again, which I did. — Things get better with age. I’m approaching magnificent!!
Response:
Bart if your credit ever improves enough you can get a credit card you will find out what I am talking about. I only pay with PP by CC. If they try to burn me a simple phone call is all it takes and the money is returned to me. If they later decide to send me the item it’s up to me to pay them. If you are dishonest, and I am sure it happens, you can get the merchandise, and the money back. When you get done choking ask Mom or Dad. If they have a CC they can explain it to you.
When you get through droning the drivel you have spit out here over the last week, start reading. He said nothing about a credit card protecting him. He said he could not get ripped off if he used Paypal. Can’t ask dad. He died at age 83. A long time ago.
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I would hope so. I would be all for locking up people who abuse this. The abuse is paid for by all of us who are honest. This was why I was glad to see the changes in the bankruptcy laws. I for years have seen too many people who ran up huge CC debt, with no intention of ever paying it back. they would get all the credit they could, then run down and wipe it out, but of course keep all the "neat stuff" they bought. We all pay for that.
Yeah, and wait till you see what happens to the honest people that can’t pay their CC balances off each month or have a major illness or medical catastrophe that prevents them from working. While I agree with you that this is great to curtail the thieves and parasites of our society, I know it’s going to do a lot more harm to honest folks. The crooks will still apply the same old adage, "You can’t get blood from a stone" and the honest people will still be subsidizing the system. Nothing has changed for the better. Rita
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would hope so. I would be all for locking up people who abuse this. The abuse is paid for by all of us who are honest. This was why I was glad to see the changes in the bankruptcy laws. I for years have seen too many people who ran up huge CC debt, with no intention of ever paying it back. they would get all the credit they could, then run down and wipe it out, but of course keep all the "neat stuff" they bought. We all pay for that. Yeah, and wait till you see what happens to the honest people that can’t pay their CC balances off each month or have a major illness or medical catastrophe that prevents them from working. While I agree with you that this is great to curtail the thieves and parasites of our society, I know it’s going to do a lot more harm to honest folks. The crooks will still apply the same old adage, "You can’t get blood from a stone" and the honest people will still be subsidizing the system. Nothing has changed for the better. Rita
Spoken like so many of the people who have NEVER read what the new law says, yet you just "know" how it works huh? Perhaps you could quote the parts of it you don’t like? What’s that? Oh, you have no idea what it says, you just "heard" how bad it was huh. Perhaps you may want to read it, rather than listen to what the nightly news told you, or you could just choose to remain ignorant, because "ignorance is indeed bliss" <shrug — Stupidity should be painful
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bart if your credit ever improves enough you can get a credit card you will find out what I am talking about. I only pay with PP by CC. If they try to burn me a simple phone call is all it takes and the money is returned to me. If they later decide to send me the item it’s up to me to pay them. If you are dishonest, and I am sure it happens, you can get the merchandise, and the money back. When you get done choking ask Mom or Dad. If they have a CC they can explain it to you. When you get through droning the drivel you have spit out here over the last week, start reading. He said nothing about a credit card protecting him. He said he could not get ripped off if he used Paypal. Can’t ask dad. He died at age 83. A long time ago.
What I said Bart was: "When I buy I ONLY buy if I can use PayPal because I can’t get ripped off. " Like I said Bart if your credit ever improves enough for you to get a CC, and or you ever learn to read, you may learn something about how it works. In the mean time you are good for a laugh though. — Stupidity should be painful
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -When you use your CC to pay in a shop you often get charged a small %’age for the transaction. Not in the USA you don’t. It’s a cost of doing business. Unfortunately I’ve seen this recently myself… including one store that actually posted a sign with DIFFERENT % rates charged depending on whether you used MasterCard, Discover, etc.! Just because it is against the agreement with the merchant card transaction houses, doesn’t mean folks still don’t do it… shamefully! I make a point, of course, of not shopping at those establishments. -Stewart http://www.indenter.com/comics
There is a gun shop here that does this. It’s posted for all to read. I have no problem with it. They have to pay a fee, they pass it on. If you do not wish to pay the fee, you have the option of paying with cash or check, or taking your business elsewhere. The place does a booming business, so I’m sure they do not care if a few people have a problem with it. — Things get better with age. I’m approaching magnificent!!
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Spoken like so many of the people who have NEVER read what the new law says, yet you just "know" how it works huh? Perhaps you could quote the parts of it you don’t like? What’s that? Oh, you have no idea what it says, you just "heard" how bad it was huh. Perhaps you may want to read it, rather than listen to what the nightly news told you, or you could just choose to remain ignorant, because "ignorance is indeed bliss" <shrug
You really need to something with all that penned up hostility. I said I agree with you and it is going to be beneficial, *BUT* don’t be surprised when you see some good folks get their ass pounded by the banks, credit unions, and the courts. It’s almost a win-win situation for the CC companies now with some of the interest rates they charge people that carry a balance, some upwards of 21%. And god forbid, don’t fall behind in your payments by a few months. And it’s the honest people that struggle to make these criminally insane *structured* monthly payments that will never get them out of debt. The banks want you to default. Like I said, don’t whine if you lose everything if you have a major medical catastrophe and can’t bring in an income. Maybe disability will cover your ass after your nest egg gets sucked dry? I doubt it. Rita
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Alex Clayton" wrote … If you are dishonest, and I am sure it happens, you can get the merchandise, and the money back. And if you do it too often, you get to see inside of a prison. Financial organizations, even bad ones, do not like being ripped off, even by ebayers. — Andrew http://www.weirdity/ebay/ I would hope so. I would be all for locking up people who abuse this. The abuse is paid for by all of us who are honest. This was why I was glad to see the changes in the bankruptcy laws. I for years have seen too many people who ran up huge CC debt, with no intention of ever paying it back. they would get all the credit they could, then run down and wipe it out, but of course keep all the "neat stuff" they bought. We all pay for that.
That’s nice, but we who pay choose cash have to pay for your credit card happiness because the laws won’t let the merchants charge you more. Using your logic, why is that? A
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would hope so. I would be all for locking up people who abuse this. The abuse is paid for by all of us who are honest. This was why I was glad to see the changes in the bankruptcy laws. I for years have seen too many people who ran up huge CC debt, with no intention of ever paying it back. they would get all the credit they could, then run down and wipe it out, but of course keep all the "neat stuff" they bought. We all pay for that. Yeah, and wait till you see what happens to the honest people that can’t pay their CC balances off each month or have a major illness or medical catastrophe that prevents them from working. While I agree with you that this is great to curtail the thieves and parasites of our society, I know it’s going to do a lot more harm to honest folks. The crooks will still apply the same old adage, "You can’t get blood from a stone" and the honest people will still be subsidizing the system. Nothing has changed for the better. Rita Spoken like so many of the people who have NEVER read what the new law says, yet you just "know" how it works huh? Perhaps you could quote the parts of it you don’t like? What’s that? Oh, you have no idea what it says, you just "heard" how bad it was huh. Perhaps you may want to read it, rather than listen to what the nightly news told you, or you could just choose to remain ignorant, because "ignorance is indeed bliss" <shrug
So what’s so great about the mandatory credit counseling? That business was investigated and chastised for their high fees, unethical business practices, and lack of effectiveness – yet a year later everybody in financial trouble has to pay them for their "services?" Great, an added expense for an already financially strapped person. I know that if you make more than the median income in your state, you cannot file Chapter 7. So, if you’re a working stiff buried under a mountain of medical bills, you’re screwed. You’ll never get out from under it. I know that a financial troubled Congressman who introduced the bill did so the day after receiving a large loan with amazingly favorable terms from the bank that drafted the legislation. If they wanted to revamp things, why didn’t they at least balance it out with cap on usury level interest rates, and vultures like Capital One who prey on the poor and the stupid? Oh, and let’s not forget that the added requirements for the lawyers filing the cases will drive the expense way out of range. You watch, pretty soon people who are behind on their bills will lose their driving privileges, child visitation rights, etc. etc. I predict that eventually debtors will again be going go to prison. But hey – at least the medical there is paid for. (Unless you’re in Florida, I guess. Then even that’s a toss-up.) A
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Pish. It’s the cost of powerful banking and credit card lobbying. A
Years ago, the credit card companies – Visa, MasterCard, American Express – had fraud investigation departments and went after fraudulent use of cards. Then they decided it was more cost effective to leave that up to law enforcement and just spread the cost over all their customers. This is becoming more and more prevalent. Anybody who lives in a city finds out that the police won’t investigate or even send someone to take a report of a crime unless the dollar amount involved is over $200 or $500 depending on the local law. If your house is burgled and the thieves are gone when you discover it, chances are they’ll tell you to come into the station to make a report – for insurance purposes. I’ve even known people who found blood where the burglar cut himself while entering through a broken window, and another where the burglar dropped his wallet! The police couldn’t be bothered to investigate. — http://bernardschopen.tripod.com/ Life is about the journey, not about the destination.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is this still hated by all? No. It pulls my chain a little that eBay take a decent cut from your listings and then through the use of eBay sneak a little more out of you … and I see now that they have updated the T&C so that sellers cannot pass on the charges to the buyer. Wow. Breaking news huh? When you use your CC to pay in a shop you often get charged a small %’age for the transaction. Not in the USA you don’t. It’s a cost of doing business.
Pish. It’s the cost of powerful banking and credit card lobbying. A
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Is this still hated by all? It pulls my chain a little that eBay take a decent cut from your listings and then through the use of eBay sneak a little more out of you … and I see now that they have updated the T&C so that sellers cannot pass on the charges to the buyer. When you use your CC to pay in a shop you often get charged a small %’age for the transaction. I can see why people hype up the P&P on items, now. Well, for me, it’s no more PayPal … good old fashioned cheques and postal orders will do just fine … no charges on them!
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Is this still hated by all? It pulls my chain a little that eBay take a decent cut from your listings and then through the use of eBay sneak a little more out of you … and I see now that they have updated the T&C so that sellers cannot pass on the charges to the buyer. When you use your CC to pay in a shop you often get charged a small %’age for the transaction. I can see why people hype up the P&P on items, now. Well, for me, it’s no more PayPal … good old fashioned cheques and postal orders will do just fine … no charges on them!
That’s some more competition out of my way. Many buyers, whether you like it or not, like the convenience of PayPal. I, personally, would not buy from any seller that doesn’t take PayPal unless the item I’m after is not available elsewhere and not likely to be before I really need it. By not taking PayPal you, ultimately, reduce your audience and probably your final values. It’s debatable whether that reduction exceeds the PayPal fees or not. — Crazy Dog wfhatcrazyhyphendogdotfsnetdotcodotuk
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Is this still hated by all?
Stop trolling since you’re not good at it! It pulls my chain a little that eBay take a decent cut from your listings and then through the use of eBay sneak a little more out of you … and I see now that they have updated the T&C so that sellers cannot pass on the charges to the buyer. When you use your CC to pay in a shop you often get charged a small %’age for the transaction.
Welcome to the world of retail. I love paying these fees! The more I’m paying is the more I’m making. I wish I could pay more. I can see why people hype up the P&P on items, now. Well, for me, it’s no more PayPal … good old fashioned cheques and postal orders will do just fine … no charges on them!
Good riddance! I wish PayPal would apply for religious status so they can become a church and become tax exempt. We can worship the almighty PayPal God. Rita
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is this still hated by all? No. It pulls my chain a little that eBay take a decent cut from your listings and then through the use of eBay sneak a little more out of you … and I see now that they have updated the T&C so that sellers cannot pass on the charges to the buyer. Wow. Breaking news huh? When you use your CC to pay in a shop you often get charged a small %’age for the transaction. Not in the USA you don’t. It’s a cost of doing business. I can see why people hype up the P&P on items, now. Why? Because they get paid faster? Well, for me, it’s no more PayPal … good old fashioned cheques and postal orders will do just fine … no charges on them! Good doing business with you – I guarantee you that you will lose customers. — To reply, remove TheObvious from my e-mail address.
When I buy I ONLY buy if I can use PayPal because I can’t get ripped off. When I sell I always accept it because it’s just worth the fee, to me, for the convenience. The only place I have seen that still charges to use a CC is a gun shop. — Things get better with age. I’m approaching magnificent!!
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Is this still hated by all? It pulls my chain a little that eBay take a decent cut from your listings and then through the use of eBay sneak a little more out of you … and I see now that they have updated the T&C so that sellers cannot pass on the charges to the buyer. When you use your CC to pay in a shop you often get charged a small %’age for the transaction. I can see why people hype up the P&P on items, now. Well, for me, it’s no more PayPal … good old fashioned cheques and postal orders will do just fine … no charges on them!
I take it you won’t miss the buyers who — like me — just skip right over any auction that doesn’t take PayPal? — Ty Who is mostly just a slightly skewed Donna Reed A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. –Edward Abbey
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When I buy I ONLY buy if I can use PayPal because I can’t get ripped off.
Coffee—–Monitor, wall, keyboard
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is this still hated by all? It pulls my chain a little that eBay take a decent cut from your listings and then through the use of eBay sneak a little more out of you … and I see now that they have updated the T&C so that sellers cannot pass on the charges to the buyer. When you use your CC to pay in a shop you often get charged a small %’age for the transaction. I can see why people hype up the P&P on items, now. Well, for me, it’s no more PayPal … good old fashioned cheques and postal orders will do just fine … no charges on them! I take it you won’t miss the buyers who — like me — just skip right over any auction that doesn’t take PayPal?
I skip over the ones that demand PayPal only. Does that even it out? A
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I have just found out that after signing up for Paypay it will be up to several weeks before I can use it. It has something to do with the address verification system. So what good is it if you can’t use it. Seems their program could be written to use reply verification as most other services. Frank
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you can send payments up to 200$ (210 with the bonus) until your address verification card is received (I got mine 10 days later) you can receive unlimited payments waiting for that card lots of people have transactions smaller than 200$
I have just found out that after signing up for Paypay it will be up to several weeks before I can use it. It has something to do with the address verification system. So what good is it if you can’t use it. Seems their program could be written to use reply verification as most other services. Frank
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The response I received from PayPal as to why I did not receive the send pay to window( I keep getting the sign up window) was that I did not supply the verification # to initiate my account. If theres something I am missing I sure would like to know about it. Thanks Frank – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – you can send payments up to 200$ (210 with the bonus) until your address verification card is received (I got mine 10 days later) you can receive unlimited payments waiting for that card lots of people have transactions smaller than 200$ I have just found out that after signing up for Paypay it will be up to several weeks before I can use it. It has something to do with the address verification system. So what good is it if you can’t use it. Seems their program could be written to use reply verification as most other services. Frank
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ah, that comes to the email address, usually within a few short hours there is a separate one, that comes via postal mail, that increases your limit (via cc) to 5,000 per six months… ‘methinks their faq isn’t too clear on that one, but when you signed up- it should have been on screen… there is no limit if you let them do withdrawals (via ach automated clearinghouse) withdrawals..
The response I received from PayPal as to why I did not receive the send pay to window( I keep getting the sign up window) was that I did not supply the verification # to initiate my account. If theres something I am missing I sure would like to know about it. Thanks Frank – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – you can send payments up to 200$ (210 with the bonus) until your address verification card is received (I got mine 10 days later) you can receive unlimited payments waiting for that card lots of people have transactions smaller than 200$ I have just found out that after signing up for Paypay it will be up to several weeks before I can use it. It has something to do with the address verification system. So what good is it if you can’t use it. Seems their program could be written to use reply verification as most other services. Frank
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You have to verify your e-mail address. You should have received an e-mail from them with a password in it. If not, just go to their site and request that they resend it.
The response I received from PayPal as to why I did not receive the send pay to window( I keep getting the sign up window) was that I did not supply the verification # to initiate my account. If theres something I am missing I sure would like to know about it. Thanks Frank – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – you can send payments up to 200$ (210 with the bonus) until your address verification card is received (I got mine 10 days later) you can receive unlimited payments waiting for that card lots of people have transactions smaller than 200$ I have just found out that after signing up for Paypay it will be up to several weeks before I can use it. It has something to do with the address verification system. So what good is it if you can’t use it. Seems their program could be written to use reply verification as most other services. Frank
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I did Now it seems to work Thanks Frank – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You have to verify your e-mail address. You should have received an e-mail from them with a password in it. If not, just go to their site and request that they resend it. The response I received from PayPal as to why I did not receive the send pay to window( I keep getting the sign up window) was that I did not supply the verification # to initiate my account. If theres something I am missing I sure would like to know about it. Thanks Frank you can send payments up to 200$ (210 with the bonus) until your address verification card is received (I got mine 10 days later) you can receive unlimited payments waiting for that card lots of people have transactions smaller than 200$ I have just found out that after signing up for Paypay it will be up to several weeks before I can use it. It has something to do with the address verification system. So what good is it if you can’t use it. Seems their program could be written to use reply verification as most other services. Frank
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I have just found out that after signing up for Paypay it will be up to several weeks before I can use it. It has something to do with the address verification system. So what good is it if you can’t use it. Seems their program could be written to use reply verification as most other services. Frank Frank, they send you something through the mail with a code–and when you get it you log in with–Patience–won’t you feel better knowing that the other people using have been verified too? Valerie
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I am also having trouble getting to the main page. I had to use www.x.com just to get there. But login in and out is a problem. It is like it won’t connect for some reason. Don’t know why it doesn’t affect some people. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anybody else having trouble accessing the PayPal website?
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Me too.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I tried just a couple of minutes ago, and got in without any trouble. Richard Ward Anybody else having trouble accessing the PayPal website?
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I tried just a couple of minutes ago, and got in without any trouble. Richard Ward – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anybody else having trouble accessing the PayPal website?
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Anybody else having trouble accessing the PayPal website?
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The assholes at Paypal HIDE thier 800 and toll free numbers. IF ANYONE HAS IT, please e mail me to me and I will post it on my website. Also, checkout www.paypalwarning.com for some VERY interesting PayPal info. I REALLY need the toll free number. They DO have one. In exchange, I will give YOU (whoever sends this to me) the equally elusive EBAY toll free number. Thanks!
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The assholes at Paypal HIDE thier 800 and toll free numbers. IF ANYONE HAS IT, please e mail me to me and I will post it on my website. Also, checkout www.paypalwarning.com for some VERY interesting PayPal info. I REALLY need the toll free number. They DO have one. In exchange, I will give YOU (whoever sends this to me) the equally elusive EBAY toll free number. Thanks!
I have 1-888-221-1161 for Paypal. Not sure if this is what you are looking for or not.
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The assholes at Paypal HIDE thier 800 and toll free numbers. IF ANYONE HAS IT,
Maybe you could try harder LOOKING for it ,i found it in about 5 sec.. Go to about us, then contact and its right there on the bottom, i have called them 2 or 3 times before and they are very helpfull… Adam
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UMm,, I take it paypal has pissed you off at a guess 
What did they do to you ???? — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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While you’re logged in, you can access their "contact us" page and get this phone number…I tried while logged out, and a message came up asking me to log in to access the page. Guess it’s a ‘members only’ page 
— SEC
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The assholes at Paypal HIDE thier 800 and toll free numbers. IF ANYONE HAS IT, please e mail me to me and I will post it on my website. Also, checkout www.paypalwarning.com for some VERY interesting PayPal info. I REALLY need the toll free number. They DO have one. In exchange, I will give YOU (whoever sends this to me) the equally elusive EBAY toll free number. Thanks! I have 1-888-221-1161 for Paypal. Not sure if this is what you are looking for or not.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Well I did get PayPal last summer when I started to buy things. I now just bought something so I went to see if I still had an account. I did but the CC date had expired. Anyway I also got myself a Premiere account to accept payments. (Thanks guys) Now should I have gotten the Business Account instead? I plan on making lots of sales. : ) Paulette~
The only real difference between the two is that business accounts have the ability to give multiple users some level of access to the account. I signed up for a business account when I first started, because I ran my eBay business through a separate business entity, but I don’t know that you’d have to use a business account to do that. It doesn’t make any difference on the volume you can run. Business also doesn’t cost you any different than a premiere account. Richard Ward
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<snip Only diff tween Biz and Premiere is that you can have more than one user with Biz account. Otherwise, identical features. — Mac McDougald Doogle Digital – www.doogle.com
Thanks much Paulette – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Well I did get PayPal last summer when I started to buy things. I now just bought something so I went to see if I still had an account. I did but the CC date had expired. Anyway I also got myself a Premiere account to accept payments. (Thanks guys) Now should I have gotten the Business Account instead? I plan on making lots of sales. : ) Paulette~ The only real difference between the two is that business accounts have the ability to give multiple users some level of access to the account. I signed up for a business account when I first started, because I ran my eBay business through a separate business entity, but I don’t know that you’d have to use a business account to do that. It doesn’t make any difference on the volume you can run. Business also doesn’t cost you any different than a premiere account. Richard Ward
Then I picked the right way as there will be no other users. Thanks Paulette~
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says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Well I did get PayPal last summer when I started to buy things. I now just bought something so I went to see if I still had an account. I did but the CC date had expired. Anyway I also got myself a Premiere account to accept payments. (Thanks guys) Now should I have gotten the Business Account instead? I plan on making lots of sales. : ) Paulette~
Only diff tween Biz and Premiere is that you can have more than one user with Biz account. Otherwise, identical features. — Mac McDougald Doogle Digital – www.doogle.com
Response:
Hi Well I did get PayPal last summer when I started to buy things. I now just bought something so I went to see if I still had an account. I did but the CC date had expired. Anyway I also got myself a Premiere account to accept payments. (Thanks guys) Now should I have gotten the Business Account instead? I plan on making lots of sales. : ) Paulette~
Response:
what usually happens if i win a dispute but the seller took the money? i got this: After careful review, we have concluded our investigation of the Buyer Complaint described below. We have decided in your favor, however, we were unable to recover any funds from the seller’s account. As stated in the PayPal User Agreement, recovery of funds associated with a Buyer Complaint cannot be guaranteed. We will make our best effort to recover the funds in question if they become available in the seller’s account in the future. Please be assured that we will also take appropriate action against the seller’s account, which may include limitation of the seller’s account privileges.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – what usually happens if i win a dispute but the seller took the money? i got this: After careful review, we have concluded our investigation of the Buyer Complaint described below. We have decided in your favor, however, we were unable to recover any funds from the seller’s account. As stated in the PayPal User Agreement, recovery of funds associated with a Buyer Complaint cannot be guaranteed. We will make our best effort to recover the funds in question if they become available in the seller’s account in the future. Please be assured that we will also take appropriate action against the seller’s account, which may include limitation of the seller’s account privileges.
Sounds like you are what’s known as "shit out of luck". Live and learn. If you live in the US only pay with a credit card. If not, "let the buyer beware" — "Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks." [Lazarus Long]
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – what usually happens if i win a dispute but the seller took the money? i got this: After careful review, we have concluded our investigation of the Buyer Complaint described below. We have decided in your favor, however, we were unable to recover any funds from the seller’s account. As stated in the PayPal User Agreement, recovery of funds associated with a Buyer Complaint cannot be guaranteed. We will make our best effort to recover the funds in question if they become available in the seller’s account in the future. Please be assured that we will also take appropriate action against the seller’s account, which may include limitation of the seller’s account privileges.
Well….you can always file a credit card chargeback, which will penalize PayPal (making them a bit angry if you do it often). If you had mailed the payment, you could have filed a Federal Mail Fraud complaint with USPS Kris
Response:
what usually happens if i win a dispute but the seller took the money? Well….you can always file a credit card chargeback, which will penalize PayPal (making them a bit angry if you do it often). If you had mailed the payment, you could have filed a Federal Mail Fraud complaint with USPS
If you had dealt with an ANA member, you wouldn’t have been ripped off. They’re not allowed to be dishonest. Craig
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Question:
Joe Allbaugh was in Lousianna far ahead of Michael Brown Amy Goodman who has been doing amazing coverage on Katrina had among her guests this morning was Judd Legum, he is the Research Director at the Center for American Progress and co-editor of the Progress Report.Well. An excerpt from the transcript below the fold, bold highlights are mine. 313to212’s diary :: :: AMY GOODMAN: I want to ask Judd Legum about Joe Allbaugh, who you were just talking about, the man who was quite close to President Bush, former head of FEMA, who could stand to profit from the catastrophe in the Gulf region. I just want to read you our headline yesterday. "President Bush tapping Allbaugh to head FEMA after he served as Bush’s campaign manager during the 2000 election." He is Brown’s predecessor. "He headed FEMA until March 2003, just as the U.S. was launching the invasion into Iraq. Then Allbaugh helped form a lobbying firm called New Bridge Strategies in order to help, clients, quote, `take advantage of business opportunities in the Middle East following the conclusion of the U.S.-led war in Iraq.’ Now, New Bridge Strategies was also formed by several top executives from the lobbying firm then known as Barbour Griffith and Rogers. The head of that firm was Haley Barbour, who is now the Mississippi Republican governor. Earlier this year, Joe Allbaugh signed on as a lobbyist for Halliburton subsidiary KBR in order to, quote, `educate the congressional and executive branch on defense, disaster relief and homeland security issues.’ Just last week, the federal government announced Halliburton would be hired to repair the Gulf Coast military bases damaged by Katrina and now the Washington Post is reporting Allbaugh is also helping Louisiana, quote, `coordinate the private sector response to the storm.’" JUDD LEGUM: Yes, that’s right. And what’s interesting is that Allbaugh actually beat Michael Brown, the current director of FEMA down to Louisiana. He was there far in advance of when Michael Brown came down, in Louisiana, essentially securing private contracts for his clients. And he recently, although the contract was signed before he started representing Halliburton, secured the agreement of the government to tap into that contract to clean up naval bases in the Louisiana area. So, he’s already paying dividends for Halliburton, certainly, and probably will for a lot of his other clients as this very large disaster relief effort continues Earlier in the interview they went over the background of the top three officials at FEMA: AMY GOODMAN: Well, why don’t you go through the list, the list of the top men at the head of FEMA? JUDD LEGUM: Well, right at the top you have Michael Brown, and as you mentioned, just a while ago, he was the Commissioner of Judges at the International Arabian Horse Association. To give you an idea of what he did there, he spent a year investigating whether a breeder performed liposuction on a horse’s rear end. So, I think that clearly that 11 years he spent there probably didn’t serve him too well when he transferred over to FEMA. AMY GOODMAN: Was he fired from his job as heading up the International Arabian Horse Association? JUDD LEGUM: Well, he was asked to resign, and I think that he was asked to resign, then he offered his resignation. So, whether that’s firing or not I guess no one will ever know, but it was a result of a lot of litigation that stemmed from his oversight of the association. And that’s essentially what caused him to have to step down. AMY GOODMAN: Judd, how did he end up as head of FEMA? JUDD LEGUM: Well, as far as I can tell, his primary qualification seems to be that he was the college roommate of Joe Allbaugh, who was the outgoing FEMA director, because prior to that, besides a short stint in a very small suburb of Oklahoma in the 1970s involved with emergency management, he really has no experience. Besides being a member of this horse association or the Commissioner of Judges of this horse association, he was an estate planning lawyer, a tax lawyer. So, it seems to me that he knew the guy who was leaving, and that’s pretty much how he got the job. AMY GOODMAN: And the number two and three men in the agency in FEMA that’s supposedly in charge of dealing with this disaster? JUDD LEGUM: Well, the number two at FEMA, he was actually head of advance for the Bush-Cheney campaign. So, essentially what he was charge of is planning events. And what’s interesting is the FEMA response actually reflects his experience. Because what happened when there were — you know, when Mike Brown made the request and said finally, you know, we need a thousand members from the Department of Homeland Security to come down and help out, they were really, you know — they were charged with, you know, representing and putting a good face on the relief efforts. And that was explicitly what Mike Brown asked for. And then when these firefighters volunteered from all around the country, they were put — made public relations officers. So I think really the experience of the number two guy there, the chief of staff, and even as you go down the line, the number three really was a media strategist, did work for Maverick Media, which is the company that did campaign ads for the Bush-Cheney campaign. So, if you really look at the operation and how FEMA responded to it, they really responded to it more like a political campaign than a disaster. If this doesn’t speak volumes to the modus operandi of this administration and it’s cronies, I don’t know what does
Response:
Zooter, How in the fuck should AGA know ? Take a break from copying this shit from whereever to here.
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Question:
Biased tone, for sure. But, as far as I can tell so far, the facts are correct, as presented. Nothing here has yet been "debunked." And, until Ohio shows their cards, it won’t be proven, either way. That goes for the 2004 election as well. And *that* is the way it is. Mike P.S. Based on the recent "trouble" in Ohio, how can *anyone* honestly say they *trust* them? Really? Wanna buy a bridge across the Ohio River??? Did the GOP steal another Ohio Election? by Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman August 5, 2005 The Republican Party has — barely — snatched another election in Ohio. And once again there are telltale symptoms of the kind of vote theft that put George W. Bush in the White House in 2000 and then kept him there in 2004. This time an outspoken Iraqi War vet named Paul Hackett led the charge for a Cincinnati-area Congressional seat, earning 48% of the vote. The spot was open because Bush appointed his pal Rep. Rob Portman to be a trade representative. Hackett is a rarity among today’s Democrats—a blunt, hard-driving truth talker who blasted Bush’s attack on Iraq. Hackett labeled W. "a chicken hawk." He’s the first Iraqi war vet to run for Congress. He made no bones about the incompetence and cynicism that define the GOP strategy there. In particular Hackett attacked Bush’s attacks on veterans benefits while claiming patriotic support of the war. In return, GOP candidate Jean Schmidt lied about Hackett’s war record. Unlike John Kerry, Hackett fought back immediately. The Ohio GOP is now being thoroughly roasted by a Coingate scandal in which Republican high roller Tom Noe seems to have walked off with at least $4 million in state funds, and possibly $16.5 million in theft and unauthorized administrative charges from a $50 million rare coin investment fund. Noe is a Bush Pioneer/Ranger level donor, and a supporter of Ohio Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell, the point man in Bush’s theft of Ohio’s 20 electoral votes and thus the presidency last November. As his friends and supporters flee him, Noe’s role as long-time chair of the Lucas County (Toledo) Board of Elections has come under intense scrutiny. Noe turned the seat over to his wife, Bernadette, in time for a 2004 election rife with disenfranchisement and fraud. Long lines, computer breakdowns, intimidation, harassment and hacked vote counts were the defining characteristics of the election the Noe’s administered in the Toledo area last November. In one instance, an entire precinct was shut down because the voting machines were locked in the office of a school principal, who called in sick. Someone also placed the wrong type of ballot scan markers in heavily Democratic Toledo precincts, causing a high rate of uncounted, machine-rejected votes without the voters knowing it. Overall, experts estimate more than 7,000 votes were stolen outright from John Kerry under the Noe’s supervision in Lucas County 2004. Whether similar theft defeated Paul Hackett remains to be seen. Hackett ran extremely well in a district thoroughly gerrymandered as a permanent Republican safe seat. Democrats are now crowing about how well Hackett did in "serving notice" that the GOP may be in trouble. But the bottom line is that the Republicans still won the election. As of 1 am this past Tuesday night/Wednesday morning, Hackett was within 3600 votes—about four percent—of Schmidt. But election officials announced a mysterious "computer glitch" that delayed reports from Clermont County, which accounted for roughly a quarter of all the ballots cast in the district. When things finally settled out, Clermont gave Schmidt 58%, and a 5,000 vote margin there. And thus the election. Earlier in the evening—around 9pm—Hackett and Schmidt had been in a virtual dead heat, according to sources in the Cincinnati area (see among them http://billmon.org/archives/002073.html ). A full 88% of the district’s precincts had then reported, including more than half those in Clermont. As in Florida 2000 and Ohio 2004, it looked like a cliffhanger. Schmidt’s lead was less than 900 votes. Clermont’s "technical malfunction" with optical scan readers was blamed on the humidity. Election officials said the southern Ohio summer had soaked into the ballots, making it hard to pass them through opti-scan machines. Once the problem was "solved," Schmidt picked up more than enough votes to guarantee victory. The percentages by which she won in the post-glitch vote count were far higher than those by which she had been winning prior to the glitch. Vote counts were also higher than expected in the strongest Schmidt precincts. Clermont and neighboring Butler and Warren Counties gave George W. Bush a margin in 2004 that exceeded his entire statewide margin over John Kerry. Warren County became infamous on election night, when its supervisors suddenly declared a "Homeland Emergency" and dismissed all media and Democrats from the vote count. Bush then emerged with a huge, unexpected and unmonitored majority. Clermont, Butler and Warren Counties’ totals were also suspect because a Democratic candidate for Ohio Supreme Court implausibly out-polled John Kerry. As would be expected, Bush vastly out ran the Republican candidate for Supreme Court Chief Justice in those three counties. But Democrat C. Ellen Connelly, a pro-choice, pro-gay-marriage African-American from Cleveland somehow got a higher vote count than Kerry in these conservative, predominantly white southern Ohio counties. Richard Hayes Philips and other experts who have assessed that vote say it is beyond implausible, indicating a high likelihood of fraud. But along with Al Gore in 2000 and John Kerry in 2004, Paul Hackett has become another Democratic candidate whose campaign went suddenly and mysteriously down to defeat late in the evening of a close election. Amidst the obligatory computer glitches, the GOP candidate was declared the winner before the vote count could be investigated. Did Clermont County do for Schmidt in 2005 what it did for Bush in 2004? Did that "glitch" in the evening vote count give GOP dirty tricksters time to once again hack the machines they needed to win? Who in the Bush/Rove Justice Department or major media will even ask the question?
Response:
GOP candidate Jean Schmidt
Who was also doing a bit of illegal campaigning at a few polling stations in her district. She was campaigning too close to the station and was even kicked out of one for trying to campaign inside.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Biased tone, for sure. But, as far as I can tell so far, the facts are correct, as presented. Nothing here has yet been "debunked." And, until Ohio shows their cards, it won’t be proven, either way. That goes for the 2004 election as well. And *that* is the way it is. Mike P.S. Based on the recent "trouble" in Ohio, how can *anyone* honestly say they *trust* them? Really? Wanna buy a bridge across the Ohio River??? Did the GOP steal another Ohio Election? by Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman August 5, 2005 The Republican Party has — barely — snatched another election in Ohio. And once again there are telltale symptoms of the kind of vote theft that put George W. Bush in the White House in 2000 and then kept him there in 2004. This time an outspoken Iraqi War vet named Paul Hackett led the charge for a Cincinnati-area Congressional seat, earning 48% of the vote. The spot was open because Bush appointed his pal Rep. Rob Portman to be a trade representative. Hackett is a rarity among today’s Democrats—a blunt, hard-driving truth talker who blasted Bush’s attack on Iraq. Hackett labeled W. "a chicken hawk." He’s the first Iraqi war vet to run for Congress. He made no bones about the incompetence and cynicism that define the GOP strategy there. In particular Hackett attacked Bush’s attacks on veterans benefits while claiming patriotic support of the war. In return, GOP candidate Jean Schmidt lied about Hackett’s war record. Unlike John Kerry, Hackett fought back immediately. The Ohio GOP is now being thoroughly roasted by a Coingate scandal in which Republican high roller Tom Noe seems to have walked off with at least $4 million in state funds, and possibly $16.5 million in theft and unauthorized administrative charges from a $50 million rare coin investment fund. Noe is a Bush Pioneer/Ranger level donor, and a supporter of Ohio Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell, the point man in Bush’s theft of Ohio’s 20 electoral votes and thus the presidency last November. As his friends and supporters flee him, Noe’s role as long-time chair of the Lucas County (Toledo) Board of Elections has come under intense scrutiny. Noe turned the seat over to his wife, Bernadette, in time for a 2004 election rife with disenfranchisement and fraud. Long lines, computer breakdowns, intimidation, harassment and hacked vote counts were the defining characteristics of the election the Noe’s administered in the Toledo area last November. In one instance, an entire precinct was shut down because the voting machines were locked in the office of a school principal, who called in sick. Someone also placed the wrong type of ballot scan markers in heavily Democratic Toledo precincts, causing a high rate of uncounted, machine-rejected votes without the voters knowing it. Overall, experts estimate more than 7,000 votes were stolen outright from John Kerry under the Noe’s supervision in Lucas County 2004. Whether similar theft defeated Paul Hackett remains to be seen. Hackett ran extremely well in a district thoroughly gerrymandered as a permanent Republican safe seat. Democrats are now crowing about how well Hackett did in "serving notice" that the GOP may be in trouble. But the bottom line is that the Republicans still won the election. As of 1 am this past Tuesday night/Wednesday morning, Hackett was within 3600 votes—about four percent—of Schmidt. But election officials announced a mysterious "computer glitch" that delayed reports from Clermont County, which accounted for roughly a quarter of all the ballots cast in the district. When things finally settled out, Clermont gave Schmidt 58%, and a 5,000 vote margin there. And thus the election. Earlier in the evening—around 9pm—Hackett and Schmidt had been in a virtual dead heat, according to sources in the Cincinnati area (see among them http://billmon.org/archives/002073.html ). A full 88% of the district’s precincts had then reported, including more than half those in Clermont. As in Florida 2000 and Ohio 2004, it looked like a cliffhanger. Schmidt’s lead was less than 900 votes. Clermont’s "technical malfunction" with optical scan readers was blamed on the humidity. Election officials said the southern Ohio summer had soaked into the ballots, making it hard to pass them through opti-scan machines. Once the problem was "solved," Schmidt picked up more than enough votes to guarantee victory. The percentages by which she won in the post-glitch vote count were far higher than those by which she had been winning prior to the glitch. Vote counts were also higher than expected in the strongest Schmidt precincts. Clermont and neighboring Butler and Warren Counties gave George W. Bush a margin in 2004 that exceeded his entire statewide margin over John Kerry. Warren County became infamous on election night, when its supervisors suddenly declared a "Homeland Emergency" and dismissed all media and Democrats from the vote count. Bush then emerged with a huge, unexpected and unmonitored majority. Clermont, Butler and Warren Counties’ totals were also suspect because a Democratic candidate for Ohio Supreme Court implausibly out-polled John Kerry. As would be expected, Bush vastly out ran the Republican candidate for Supreme Court Chief Justice in those three counties. But Democrat C. Ellen Connelly, a pro-choice, pro-gay-marriage African-American from Cleveland somehow got a higher vote count than Kerry in these conservative, predominantly white southern Ohio counties. Richard Hayes Philips and other experts who have assessed that vote say it is beyond implausible, indicating a high likelihood of fraud. But along with Al Gore in 2000 and John Kerry in 2004, Paul Hackett has become another Democratic candidate whose campaign went suddenly and mysteriously down to defeat late in the evening of a close election. Amidst the obligatory computer glitches, the GOP candidate was declared the winner before the vote count could be investigated. Did Clermont County do for Schmidt in 2005 what it did for Bush in 2004? Did that "glitch" in the evening vote count give GOP dirty tricksters time to once again hack the machines they needed to win? Who in the Bush/Rove Justice Department or major media will even ask the question?
Can I get another "Boo-Hoo" http://www.tech-sol.net/humor/democratic_seal.jpg Claude
Response:
GOP candidate Jean Schmidt Who was also doing a bit of illegal campaigning at a few polling stations in her district. She was campaigning too close to the station and was even kicked out of one for trying to campaign inside.
Can I get a "Boo-Hoo" http://www.tech-sol.net/humor/democratic_seal.jpg Claude
Response:
NO. but you most certainly will get complaints filed for violating various state and federal election codes. OHIO INVESTMENT SCANDAL Another grand jury is convened in Noe investigation Wittenberg By MIKE WILKINSON BLADE STAFF WRITER A second grand jury is investigating the expanding state scandal involving Tom Noe and his failed $50 million rare-coin funds. Judge Charles Wittenberg of Lucas County Common Pleas Court confirmed that a special grand jury met for the first time yesterday and is expected to meet monthly into November. He declined to say why the grand jury is meeting, but sources told The Blade yesterday that it will not only focus on Mr. Noe but also will look at "the broader issues" surrounding problems at the Ohio Bureau of Workers’ Compensation. Since 1998, the bureau has invested $50 million in two rare-coin funds that Mr. Noe set up, plus $5.4 million in alleged profits that bureau officials allowed Mr. Noe to reinvest in the funds in February. Bureau officials were on the verge of investing an additional $25 million with Mr. Noe until The Blade began writing about problems with his coin funds in early April. In late May, state officials shut down the Noe funds. They confiscated Mr. Noe’s inventory and records after his lawyers revealed that up to $13 million from the funds was unaccounted for. Two weeks ago, Ohio Attorney General Jim Petro held a press conference to announce that an initial review of the confiscated records showed that Mr. Noe stole nearly $4 million of the state’s money. A special grand jury, used infrequently in Lucas County, was sworn in July 22 by Judge Wittenberg, the administrative judge for the court. Yesterday’s session was the panel’s first. It is expected to meet the first Wednesday of September, October, and November, and possibly longer. Judge Wittenberg identified Tom Matuszak as one of the prosecutors presenting the case to the special grand jury. Mr. Matuszak is one of the lead investigators on the Noe case for the Lucas County prosecutor’s office. Jon Richardson, one of Mr. Noe’s attorneys, said he "wasn’t aware, but I’m not surprised" that a special grand jury was meeting. He said the ongoing nature of its work indicates to him that it is an investigatory body. Grand juries are used to hear from witnesses and review evidence presented by prosecutors in order to determine if enough proof exists to charge someone with a crime. Prosecutors also may ask grand juries to issue subpoenas in order to secure additional evidence. Alan Konop, a veteran criminal defense attorney in Toledo, said the impaneling of a special grand jury is a common investigative tool allowing prosecutors to gather evidence and compel testimony without first filing a criminal charge. "It’s a very effective tool, especially because of the subpoena," Mr. Konop said. And without a grand jury, prosecutors cannot force potential witnesses to talk with them. "The method of getting people to talk is the subpoena," Mr. Konop said. He said Lucas County Prosecutor Julia Bates’ office is taking the right approach, similar to the one taken by the U.S. attorney’s office. "It’s a very measured way of doing it. It’s a very logical way of doing it." Ms. Bates is working with Franklin County Prosecutor Ron O’Brien and both U.S. attorneys for Ohio, Gregory White of Cleveland and Greg Lockhart of Columbus. The four have formed a task force to investigate Mr. Noe and his coin funds, as well as an ever-widening group of state officials involved in troubled bureau investments. Since early June, a federal grand jury in Toledo has been hearing evidence about Mr. Noe and whether he illegally funneled money to the Bush-Cheney re-election campaign. Federal investigators are trying to determine if Mr. Noe gave money to people to donate to the campaign, allowing Mr. Noe to skirt spending limits. Several prominent Republicans have testified before the federal grand jury, including Betty Shultz, a member of Toledo City Council; Maggie Thurber, a member of the Lucas County commission; former Toledo mayor Donna Owens, and former state representative Sally Perz. They all attended an October, 2003, Bush fund-raiser and all contributed to the campaign. The Ohio inspector general is also investigating the state coin-fund debacle, and the Ohio Ethics Commission is investigating ethical violations in the office of Gov. Bob Taft concerning gifts from Mr. Noe. Last week, the ethics investigation netted its first criminal convictions when former Taft aides Brian Hicks and Cherie Carroll were found guilty of violating state ethics laws. Mr. Hicks, the governor’s former chief of staff and now a Columbus lobbyist, vacationed at the $1.3 million Florida Keys home of Mr. Noe and his wife, Bernadette, while paying below-market rates for his stays. Ms. Carroll, Mr. Hicks’ former assistant in the governor’s office and now an employee of his lobbying firm, allowed Mr. Noe to buy her numerous meals at expensive Columbus restaurants. A judge convicted the two of violating Ohio ethics laws and fined them each $1,000. also see http://writ.news.findlaw.com/commentary/20050707_tokaji.html
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Question:
I don’t completely agree with it either. What is needed is more competition so providers have to compete for patients either on price or quality or both. Rules & Regs do not produce quality. Competition produces quality. Right now, doctors in the US obviously do not have to compete for patients as any visit to a waiting room will tell you. Absence of competition = poor quality expensive services. Woody
Response:
On 23 Jul 2005 16:40:05 -0700, "Woody Long" <woodylon…@hotmail.com> wrote: >I don’t completely agree with it either. What is needed is more >competition so providers have to compete for patients either on price >or quality or both. Rules & Regs do not produce quality. Competition >produces quality. Right now, doctors in the US obviously do not have >to compete for patients as any visit to a waiting room will tell you. >Absence of competition = poor quality expensive services.
Yes. One way to achieve that is use of non-professional services in some cases (e.g this newgroup). I have found that some dentists (well one in my case) are good with sinusitis too. In some states they can prescribe drugs.
Response:
On 7/23/05 7:11 PM, in article dvt5e19e2lnfvsaaildj7pctsnqsck7…@4ax.com, "Don Brady" <dbr…@pobox.com> wrote: > I have found that some dentists (well one in my case) are good with sinusitis > too. In some states they can prescribe drugs.
Dentists are licensed to prescribe drugs in all states.
Response:
On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:52:59 -0700, Murray Grossan <hydro…@adelphia.net> wrote: >On 7/23/05 7:11 PM, in article dvt5e19e2lnfvsaaildj7pctsnqsck7…@4ax.com, >"Don Brady" <dbr…@pobox.com> wrote: >> I have found that some dentists (well one in my case) are good with sinusitis >> too. In some states they can prescribe drugs. >Dentists are licensed to prescribe drugs in all states.
All the better! Maybe I should have added "and are willing to do so even for some sinus problems" Thanks Don
Response:
On 7/23/05 10:08 AM, in article 1122138530.490277.183…@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com, "Woody Long" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<woodylon…@hotmail.com> wrote: > Malpractice Litigation Wrongly Blamed For Inconsistent Health Care > CHAMPAIGN, Ill. — Conventional wisdom holds that malpractice lawsuits > are the bane of modern medicine, with high insurance premiums driving > doctors from the profession and the threat of lawsuits discouraging > health-care employees from reporting and correcting medical mistakes. > Examining these claims in a lengthy article in the Cornell Law Review > and a shorter article in Regulation, a University of Illinois > health-law scholar finds most of the assertions to be without factual > basis. > "Health care is substantially more dangerous than it should be," David > A. Hyman, Illinois professor of law and of medicine, concludes in > articles co-written with Charles Silver, a law professor at the > University of Texas. But malpractice litigation has little to do with > the continuing failure of medical providers to deal effectively with > the erratic quality of health care. > "In the United States, it is true both that one can obtain the best > available care for most maladies and that health-care errors are the > eighth leading cause of death, ranking ahead of AIDS, motor vehicle > accidents and breast cancer," Hyman and Silver wrote. For example, > hospital-acquired infections are so common that one estimate indicates > that proper hand washing by health-care workers alone would save 20,000 > lives a year. > In addition, according to the articles, health-care providers > "routinely omit indicated procedures of known value, frequently perform > treatments that are unnecessary and inefficacious, and employ practice > patterns that vary widely and for no good reason. Adverse drug events > are distressingly common. Tens of billions of dollars are spent > annually on medical services whose value is questionable or > non-existent." > Hyman, who has an M.D. and law degree, teaches health-care regulation > and civil procedure. He attributed inconsistencies in health care in > part to medical education and culture. Medical schools "do not teach > modern quality assessment and improvement techniques. Instead, they > teach students to make independent judgments and to treasure clinical > autonomy. > "This training may often benefit patients by supplying them with agents > who have the confidence to do what is right. But professional > independence can have a significant downside for patients as well." > According to Hyman and Silver, many doctors still resist computerized > diagnostic and risk-assessment tools that have demonstrated their > superiority to a clinician’s subjective judgments. > "Physicians often deride such approaches as ‘cookbook medicine,’ and > non-physicians have historically deferred to doctors on quality-related > issues," they wrote. > But equally important are the economic disincentives built into the > system that favor cost — and cost reduction — over quality of service > and patient safety. Fee-for-service compensation, the traditional mode > for medical payment by insurers, gives hospitals and physicians an > incentive to prescribe treatments and drugs that may not be necessary > and to curtail programs that result in a loss of hospital or physician > revenue. > "Health-care providers worry less about quality than they should > because they are not paid to do so," the authors wrote. This problem is > demonstrated by the comparative lack of information technology applied > to medical procedures and treatments, as opposed to the latest software > used for hospital billing. > "Hospitals know that computerized physician order entry systems greatly > reduce the frequency of medication mistakes, but do not use them > because they are expensive. Doctors know that electronic medical > records improve the quality of care, but do not use them because most > independent practices are too small to afford the technology. Few > emergency rooms have patient-protecting software because of limited > resource pooling and economies of scale. Over and over, one finds that > providers fail to implement proven patient safety measures because they > lack incentives to bear the cost." > In this context, liability laws and malpractice suits have a modest > positive effect on behavior, the authors asserted. > "Liability encourages producers of goods and services to exercise due > care by forcing them to internalize the costs of their negligence … > We do not contend that the civil justice system creates optimal > incentives for providers to protect patients from avoidable errors. It > does not and, in all likelihood, it never will. Our point is that > unless and until changes in compensation arrangements create a business > case for quality, providers will continue to provide low-quality care > to many patients, and the health-care sector will under-perform the > rest of the economy." > Earlier this year, Congress considered a measure to cap non-economic > damages to victims of medical malpractice at $250,000. The American > Medical Association, representing doctors, and the Physician Insurers > Association of America, a coalition of malpractice insurers, are > lobbying for the cap. President George W. Bush has made a limit on > non-economic damages a key component of his malpractice-reform > proposals. > These proposals may make liability insurance more affordable in the > long run, but they will do little to improve the quality of patient > care, according to Hyman and Silver. Market-based reforms could do a > better job. They recommend such strategies as allowing malpractice > premiums to rise and requiring "repeat offenders" to undergo quality > audits. > The scholars further recommend that physicians who adhere to > evidence-based medical standards developed by the profession be immune > from malpractice suits. "If physicians fear malpractice as much as they > say they do, the prospect of immunity should be an immediate incentive > for the implementation of these standards." > Hyman is a professor in the Illinois College of Law, College of > Medicine and Institute of Government and Public Affairs. Silver is > co-director of the Center on Lawyers, Civil Justice and the Media at > the University of Texas School of Law. > Their article in the Cornell Law Review is titled "The Poor State of > Health-Care Quality in the U.S." Their article in Regulation is titled > "Speak No Evil."
As usual these are written by Ivory Tower Pundits. Malpractice doesn’t lower quality of care??? The hospital pays a premium – can be 10 or more % of your bill The nurse pays a premium. Her salary must be higher to pay the malpractice insurance. The lab gal that draws you blood pays a premium. Her salary must also be higher, etc. The Lab doctor that reads the results pays a premium The pharmacist that fills your Rx pays a premium The company that made your X ray machine pays a premium The x ray tech that positions you pays a premium The X ray doctor that reads the films pays a premium All those premiums add up and up and cause good medicine to be out of reach of so many persons. Oh, I forgot, the doctors pay a premium too. 100,000 premium is passed on to the public, of course. Unnecessary procedures? Heavens yes – X rays, MRI, etc for the slightest head bump to cover one’s A–. Even though there is no medical need for it. No doubt that study you quote was funded by the Trial Lawyer’s association which has a nest egg of millions to fight malpractice reform.
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Malpractice Litigation Wrongly Blamed For Inconsistent Health Care CHAMPAIGN, Ill. — Conventional wisdom holds that malpractice lawsuits are the bane of modern medicine, with high insurance premiums driving doctors from the profession and the threat of lawsuits discouraging health-care employees from reporting and correcting medical mistakes. Examining these claims in a lengthy article in the Cornell Law Review and a shorter article in Regulation, a University of Illinois health-law scholar finds most of the assertions to be without factual basis. "Health care is substantially more dangerous than it should be," David A. Hyman, Illinois professor of law and of medicine, concludes in articles co-written with Charles Silver, a law professor at the University of Texas. But malpractice litigation has little to do with the continuing failure of medical providers to deal effectively with the erratic quality of health care. "In the United States, it is true both that one can obtain the best available care for most maladies and that health-care errors are the eighth leading cause of death, ranking ahead of AIDS, motor vehicle accidents and breast cancer," Hyman and Silver wrote. For example, hospital-acquired infections are so common that one estimate indicates that proper hand washing by health-care workers alone would save 20,000 lives a year. In addition, according to the articles, health-care providers "routinely omit indicated procedures of known value, frequently perform treatments that are unnecessary and inefficacious, and employ practice patterns that vary widely and for no good reason. Adverse drug events are distressingly common. Tens of billions of dollars are spent annually on medical services whose value is questionable or non-existent." Hyman, who has an M.D. and law degree, teaches health-care regulation and civil procedure. He attributed inconsistencies in health care in part to medical education and culture. Medical schools "do not teach modern quality assessment and improvement techniques. Instead, they teach students to make independent judgments and to treasure clinical autonomy. "This training may often benefit patients by supplying them with agents who have the confidence to do what is right. But professional independence can have a significant downside for patients as well." According to Hyman and Silver, many doctors still resist computerized diagnostic and risk-assessment tools that have demonstrated their superiority to a clinician’s subjective judgments. "Physicians often deride such approaches as ‘cookbook medicine,’ and non-physicians have historically deferred to doctors on quality-related issues," they wrote. But equally important are the economic disincentives built into the system that favor cost — and cost reduction — over quality of service and patient safety. Fee-for-service compensation, the traditional mode for medical payment by insurers, gives hospitals and physicians an incentive to prescribe treatments and drugs that may not be necessary and to curtail programs that result in a loss of hospital or physician revenue. "Health-care providers worry less about quality than they should because they are not paid to do so," the authors wrote. This problem is demonstrated by the comparative lack of information technology applied to medical procedures and treatments, as opposed to the latest software used for hospital billing. "Hospitals know that computerized physician order entry systems greatly reduce the frequency of medication mistakes, but do not use them because they are expensive. Doctors know that electronic medical records improve the quality of care, but do not use them because most independent practices are too small to afford the technology. Few emergency rooms have patient-protecting software because of limited resource pooling and economies of scale. Over and over, one finds that providers fail to implement proven patient safety measures because they lack incentives to bear the cost." In this context, liability laws and malpractice suits have a modest positive effect on behavior, the authors asserted. "Liability encourages producers of goods and services to exercise due care by forcing them to internalize the costs of their negligence … We do not contend that the civil justice system creates optimal incentives for providers to protect patients from avoidable errors. It does not and, in all likelihood, it never will. Our point is that unless and until changes in compensation arrangements create a business case for quality, providers will continue to provide low-quality care to many patients, and the health-care sector will under-perform the rest of the economy." Earlier this year, Congress considered a measure to cap non-economic damages to victims of medical malpractice at $250,000. The American Medical Association, representing doctors, and the Physician Insurers Association of America, a coalition of malpractice insurers, are lobbying for the cap. President George W. Bush has made a limit on non-economic damages a key component of his malpractice-reform proposals. These proposals may make liability insurance more affordable in the long run, but they will do little to improve the quality of patient care, according to Hyman and Silver. Market-based reforms could do a better job. They recommend such strategies as allowing malpractice premiums to rise and requiring "repeat offenders" to undergo quality audits. The scholars further recommend that physicians who adhere to evidence-based medical standards developed by the profession be immune from malpractice suits. "If physicians fear malpractice as much as they say they do, the prospect of immunity should be an immediate incentive for the implementation of these standards." Hyman is a professor in the Illinois College of Law, College of Medicine and Institute of Government and Public Affairs. Silver is co-director of the Center on Lawyers, Civil Justice and the Media at the University of Texas School of Law. Their article in the Cornell Law Review is titled "The Poor State of Health-Care Quality in the U.S." Their article in Regulation is titled "Speak No Evil."
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So what, if any, is your studied response to Jacque’s blurted opinion that Brit food, after Finnish, is the worst, in *his* exalted French judgement? What gets into the man, anyway, to generate such statements?
Jacques didn’t start it, his Italian friend Silvio (Berlusconi) did. What seems baffling to me is, I’ve always thought of France and Italy as two of the most civilised countries in the world, but both have leaders who have acted incredibly rudely. The root of it all is that Finland and Italy were candidates for the European Union’s food safety institution. It was finally placed in Italy, and at the opening, SB again attacked Finnish food, like he did when both countries were lobbying for it. Not only that, he insulted our (female) President by claiming that he used his male charms on her to get the institution. I can’t believe a clod like this can be elected to lead a country like Italy. Some say the elections were fixed. — Marina, Frank and Miranda. In loving memory of Nikki. marina (dot) kurten (at) iki (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki
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At the moment, the best Finnish food is the fresh veggies and berries that are in season – new potatoes, fresh peas that you eat direct from the pod, fresh strawberries, blueberries, beets, spring onions, carrots… I’ve seen many claims that Finnish veggies are the cleanest in the world, and have no reason to doubt it. Another big thing in Finnish cuisine is fish, but I can’t really tell you more about that, because I’ve never liked fish myself. Seasonal specialties include crayfish (a tradition brought over from Sweden) in August, m
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Now even voices on the *left* are saying we should consider launching PBS. Read what David Shaw of the LA Times says… http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/5/31/161317.shtml Freep
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Now even voices on the *left* are saying we should consider launching PBS. Read what David Shaw of the LA Times says… http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/5/31/161317.shtml
It does seem that NewsMax did get it right. Imagine that…:0) http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-ca-shaw29may29,1,5931655.stor… See ya, John
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Back to the beginning: The airwaves belong to the people. Broadcast television stations don’t pay to use the airwaves. Unlike, say, your cell phone company, they get to use the airwaves for free. In exchange, they are required, by law, to serve the public interest. At the least, that means being nonpartisan. They are failing. In 1996, Congress and the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) literally gave away over $70 billion worth of digital broadcasting licenses to the major television networks for free. I said for FREE Digital Larceny Our main reason for bringing it up now, though, is that it has much to do with campaign finance reform and with how our democracy has been undermined by powerful special interests. If you think Big Oil and Big Tobacco are major players in the special interest game, they’re nothing compared to the giant media conglomerates that shield us from the information we need to function as citizens. So let’s go back to ‘96 to see what happened and how we got into this mess we’re in. Technically, television and radio airwaves belong to The People. That’s why Congress gets to decide who can use them and for what purposes. When you change channels on your TV or spin the knob on your radio, you’re switching through frequencies of an electronic spectrum that has been divided up and licensed out to broadcasters by Congress and the FCC. If you wanted to start your own radio station, you’d have to get a license from the government because the airwaves, or frequencies, you’d be using really belong to the public. Typically, licenses are sold at auction so that the public (i.e., the government) gets something in exchange for the use of those frequencies. Often, licenses come with restrictions and expectations. The government can, for example, sell you a commercial broadcasting license on the condition that you devote a certain amount of air time, say, to public service announcements or educational programming. But in 1996, something went terribly wrong. The Telecommunications Act "reformed" the telecommunications industry in remarkable and horrifying ways. First, it speeded deregulation of the industry, meaning that corporations that were once prohibited from owning one another could merge. If you’re not already familiar with anti-trust (anti-monopoly) laws, what this means is that corporations that used to compete against one another could suddenly join hands in brotherly collusion. The motto of the merger is "If you can’t beat ‘em, buy ‘em." And buy ‘em they did! By the year 2000, just four years later, the big media conglomerates had devoured all the smaller broadcasters and the total number dropped to six. As a result, the vast majority of our available news is now funneled through that handful of corporate titans. And as you well know, they are far more interested in keeping us distracted and amused with trivia about the likes of O.J. Simpson, Elian Gonzalez, Jon Benet Ramsey, and Gary Condit than they are in keeping us informed on, well, anything of relevance. Another thing the Telecommunications Act did was give away the digital broadcast spectrum, the set of frequencies that was supposed to be put to use in the distribution of high-definition television, or HDTV. Had this spectrum been auctioned as usual, those licenses would have brought upwards of $70 billion into the U.S. Treasury. But instead, We The People got bupkis. Zero, zip, zilch, nada. What’s more, those licenses could have been allocated to smaller broadcasters who might have competed with the big boys, but instead, they went straight to the corporate giants who already enjoyed a stranglehold on all broadcast media. Both President Clinton and Al Gore had a hand in this shameful deal. Both men have long been quiet but stalwart supporters of deregulation and media concentration. When it looked like it might be prudent to at least appear to be concerned that the "Big Spectrum Giveaway" might warrant closer inspection, Clinton assigned Gore to head up a commission to negotiate something from the broadcasters in exchange for those free licenses and permission to monopolize. The Gore Commission could have demanded many things from the broadcasters, ranging from more educational programming to less advertising targeted at kids. But instead, it asked timidly for only one concession: it asked broadcasters to provide small slots of free air time for candidates campaigning for federal offices. The broadcasters said no, and that was the end of it. Hard to believe? Not if you consider that the Gore Commission wasn’t assembled until after the Telecommunications Act had already been passed. The broadcasters had their free licenses in hand, so there was no need for them to negotiate. What’s surprising is that they bothered to show up for the meetings at all. How could this happen, you ask? Well first (as you might suspect), the broadcasting industry poured money into political coffers. In the 1995-’96 election cycle, the TV, movie, and music industries "donated" over $7 million, and split it almost evenly between Republicans and Democrats. If you include other related media industries, such as publishing, telephone, and telecom, the total reaches nearly $24 million. The four major TV networks contributed 4 million bucks all by themselves. Next, the lobbying arm of the broadcasting industry, the National Association of Broadcasters, launched a telephone and hand-shaking blitz on key legislators in Washington like Bob Dole, Trent Lott, and George Mitchell. Since so few activists (or anybody else, for that matter) even knew about the planned giveaway, the NB lobbyists went virtually uncontested. Finally, the media conglomerates used a unique advantage unavailable to any other industry or interest group in the world–the power to manipulate the news or to withhold it all together. They simply didn’t cover the story. Their theft of the airwaves occurred in broad daylight, yet hardly anyone saw it. We were busy watching other shows. During the 16-month deliberation in Congress, not one of the major networks breathed a word. And thus was democracy evaded. Here’s what this means to you. One element of campaign finance reform must be that the networks grant free air time to candidates who qualify to run for federal offices. (One of the reasons our elections are so expensive is that TV air time is so expensive.) When you make this demand of your Senators and Representatives, some of them my play stupid or impotent or both. They may say, "Hey, we can’t force broadcasters to give away air time any more than we can force grocery stores to give away food." And to that you have our permission to reply: "Hogwash! Those airwaves belong to the American people. Congress gave them away without our permission, and Congress has the power to revoke those licenses any time it wants to. I expect you, as my elected representative, to demand that any network that refuses to grant free air time to qualified candidates will lose its license." (As always, we thank the Center for Responsive Politics for the data on campaign contributions.)
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i say deep six TV or give EVERYONE Transmitter and receivers. At the very least make the big boys pay dearly for their wave.
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i say deep six TV or give EVERYONE Transmitter and receivers. At the very least make the big boys pay dearly for their wave.
Go get licenced and broadcast! :0) See ya, John
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easier said than done.http://groups.msn.com/GospelRadio/howtogetalicense.msnw Expansion of the AM or FM radio bands is unlikely to occur in the near future. The FM band is constrained from expanding above 107.9 MHz by the presence of aeronautical operations on 108 MHz to 136 MHz, and is also prevented from expanding below 88.1 MHz by Channel 6 television operations on 82.0 through 88.0 MHz. The AM band was recently expanded from 1600 to 1700 kHz after years of international negotiations, however those frequencies are reserved for existing stations which were causing significant interference in the lower part of the band.
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Unique Features of the USA: NEA, Gay Militants: Joined At The Hip Lee Duigon If a private citizen tells his neighbor’s children that they ought to try gay sex, he might wind up in a correctional facility. If he talks that way to your 13-year-old son, you’ll want him put away–pronto. But when this very same behavior, toward the same children, is displayed by adults who belong to America’s biggest teachers’ union, most parents simply let them do it. In fact, they pay them to. The NEA is committed to the cause of militant homosexuality. It’s the richest, most politically powerful union in America, and it has daily access to most of America’s children. And it wants to recruit them for the homosexual lifestyle. Lean this equation, America: Public schools=The homosexual agenda If you don’t believe it, visit nea-glc.org/, the website of the National Education Association’s Gay and Lesbian Coalition. There, among their "great achievements" in shaping NEA policy, the homosexual militants cite the NEA’s promotion of "the lesbian-gay-bisexual curriculum" and "family life education… regarding the diversity of sexual orientation." The NEA has also campaigned for the proclamation of "Gay-Lesbian-Bisexual-Transsexual History Month" (try putting that on a T-shirt), homosexual studies at Catholic colleges–and, of course, homosexual "marriage." The people of Massachusetts know the teachers’ union’s commitment to "gay marriage." Aline Isaacson of GLSEN (Gay-Lesbian-Straight Education Network), the media’s favorite poster gal for "gay marriage", is also–surprise!–a paid consultant to the Massachusetts teachers’ union. Paid in taxpayer dollars, to boot. (You may remember Massachusetts GLSEN from a few years ago as the organizers of graphic, intensely perverted sex "workshops" for public school children–a scandal that came to be known as "fist-gate.") Ms. Isaacson, according to the grass-roots Article 8 Alliance, these days makes it a full-time job lobbying state legislators to keep them from jumping ship on "gay marriage" and voting for the Bill of Address which would remove the outlaw Supreme Judicial Court judges who imposed this oxymoron on the people of Massachusetts. Supported by taxpayers’ money, she makes daily, face-to-face visits to individual lawmakers. Nice work if you can get it. Too bad you couldn’t make it to the gym teachers’ state convention in New Jersey, in February. It wasn’t about volleyball. For public school gym teachers, Job One–according to the convention’s floor displays, handouts, posters, and workshop topics (all of which I saw personally)–is getting the kids comfy with homosexuality. To this end, they handed out a "resource guide"–handsomely produced, slick, paid for largely by Fleet Bank Inc.–intended for distribution in all the public schools. (For more information, see my article, "Now It’s the Gym Teachers," in the February archive of the Chalcedon website, chalcedon.edu.) You would have seen even more of the same at "Twenty Years of Great Sex (Ed)" last year, a national conference of "sex educators" hosted by Rutgers, New Jersey’s taxpayer-funded state university. Again, there was no effort to hide the educators’ whole-hearted penchant for homosexuality… www.spearhead-uk.com http://www.natvan.com http://www.thebirdman.org http://www.RealNews247.com
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Free of superstition? Surely you jest!
*Many Muslims, after having their hair cut, will be careful to remove all the hairs on the floor, take them home in a packet, and carefully conceal them. They fear that an enemy, if in possession of his hairs, will be able to use them against him in the same way that voodoo dolls are used to injure those they represent.* HAHAHAHA! Major Superstitions in the World of Islam Talismans, amulets and charms of every description are used throughout the Muslim world and we will only be able to speak of some of the more prominent symbols. A very common amulet in Islam is the ta’wiz, a black cord or other substance worn on the body which has a Qur’an text usually inscribed on a piece of metal sown completely into it at one point. Ta’wiz. Lit. "To flee for refuge". An amulet or charm. A gold or silver case, inclosing quotations from the Qur’an or Hadis, and worn upon the neck, arm, breast or waist. (Hughes, A Dictionary of Islam, p. 630). It is not unlike the Jewish phylactery worn around the forehead but has a somewhat different significance. The Muslim wears it to ward off evil spirits and as a healing charm against illnesses and diseases. In India a ta’wiz is often given to someone just after a spirit has been exorcised: Then they take the patient home, wash his face, hands, and feet, and either on this or on the following day an amulet (ta’wiz), of a special kind used for this purpose, is tied on his neck or arm in order that the demon may not seize him again. (Herklots, Islam in India, p. 239). A similar talisman, also sometimes sown into a ta’wiz, is the magic square. These squares have a selection of numbers placed within them which generally add up to a figure considered to be of special importance and one possessing occultic powers. Perhaps the most celebrated amulet in the world of Islam is that called Al Buduh, a magic square supposed to have been revealed to Al Ghazali and now known by his name. It has become the starting-point for a whole science of talismanic symbols. Some of the Moslem authorities say that Adam invented the square. It is so called from the four Arabic letters that are the key to the combination. To the popular mind this word buduh has become a sort of guardian angel, invoking both good and bad fortune. The square is used against stomach pains, to render one’s self invisible, to protect from the evil eye, and to open locks; but the most common use is to insure the safe arrival of letters and packages. (Zwemer, The Influence of Animism on Islam, p. 196). These squares have been widely used in India for centuries and, as usual, are believed to have wonder-working powers and effects. Magic squares of these varieties are used as love charms, to create enmity, to cause men to be silent regarding another, to prevent dreaming, and to cast out devils In northern India they are used to cure various diseases; to cause butter to increase in the churn, or milk in a woman or a cow, to remove cattle disease, to make fruit-trees give their fruit, to make a husband obey his wife. (Herklots, Islam in India, p. 254). It is believed that such charms give a person power over others and the ability to ensure that they react in ways planned by the possessor of the square. Many a young man has sought to win the affection of a woman he is infatuated with through this means! The Khoumsa, the five-fingered hand, is also a common amulet in the Muslim world and is widely known as "Fatima’s Hand". It is often hung around the necks of animals to keep them from disease. Chiefly, however, it is used as a form of magical power and, like the square, is believed to possess sinister powers to influence for good or evil. Usually the hand is made of silver though other substances may be used. In Egypt the hand is generally used as an amulet against the evil eye. It is made of silver or gold in jewelry, or made of tin in natural size, and is then suspended over the door of a house. The top of a Moslem banner is often of this shape. It is used on the harness of horses, mules, etc., and on every cart used in Alexandria we see either a brass hand or one painted in various colors. (Zwemer, The Influence of Animism on Islam, p. 85). Some say that the five fingers represent Muhammad, his daughter Fatima, her husband Ali, and their sons Hassan and Husain. In South Africa this amulet appears during the annual Ta’ziah procession commemorating the martyrdom of Husain and his followers at Karbala. Some of the ta’ziahs, floats of the tombs of the martyrs, have stars and crescents above the domes but others have cardboard symbols of the outstretched hand covered in silver foil. In other parts of the Islamic world this symbol is regularly painted on houses. It serves a multitude of purposes. The hand is often painted upon the drum used in the bori (devil) dances in Tunis. It is also held up, fingers outstretched and pointing towards the evil-wisher, and this in Egypt, North Africa and Nigeria has now become a gesture of abuse. In Egypt the outstretched hand pointed at some one is used to invoke a curse. They say yukhammisuna, or "He throws his five at us", i.e., he curses. (Zwemer, "Animism in Islam", The Muslim World, Vol. 7, p. 253). Human hair is also believed to possess strange powers in cultic Islam. Many Muslims, after having their hair cut, will be careful to remove all the hairs on the floor, take them home in a packet, and carefully conceal them. They fear that an enemy, if in possession of his hairs, will be able to use them against him in the same way that voodoo dolls are used to injure those they represent. It is remarkable that in Arabia, Egypt and North Africa everywhere this custom of stowing away clippings of hair and nails is still common among Moslems and is sanctioned by the practice of the Prophet … In North Africa a man will not have his hair shaved in the presence of any one who owes him a grudge. After his hair has been cut, he will look around, and if there is no enemy about he will mix his cuttings with those of other men, and leave them, but if he fears some one there he will collect the cuttings, and take them secretly to some place and bury them. (Zwemer, The Influence of Animism on Islam, p. 70, 71). The reason for these scruples about hairs, which also apply to nail-clippings and the like, is that it is believed that the soul occupies every part of the body and anyone in the possession of such hairs or clippings can therefore influence the soul of the man he despises. These beliefs have, on the other hand, led to a wide pursuit after the hairs of Muhammad himself, a practice said to go back to his own lifetime. Because it is believed that his hairs actually contain part of his soul and therefore guarantee his presence and blessing, they are more sought after than any other relics from his life. I have seen one such hair said to be from Muhammad’s own beard on public display in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul. The relic most eagerly sought after is hair from the head or beard of Muhammed. Imitating the examples handed down from early times pious men have always been fond of wearing such relics as amulets or have asked for them to be put into their graves. (Goldziher, Muslim Studies, Vol. 2, p. 329). But the relic which is the object of the most energetic search is the hair of the Prophet’s head or beard. The hair was worn as an amulet, and men on their deathbed directed by will that the precious possession should go down with them and mingle with the earth. (Goldziher, "The Cult of Saints in Islam", The Muslim World, Vol. 1, p. 306). Lastly mention should be made of a common sacrifice known as the Aqiqah which Muslims perform at the birth of a child. This sacrifice is not mentioned in the Qur’an but the Hadith teach that it was practiced during the time of Muhammad and that he allowed the practice without sanctioning it (Muwatta Imam Malik, p. 225). The ceremony is set out as follows in this account: On the seventh day after the birth it is commendable to name the child, cut its hair, and offer a sacrifice, two sheep or goats for a boy, one for a girl. If not made at this time, the sacrifice can be made later, even by the child itself when grown-up. The flesh should be given to the poor. The weight of the hair in silver or gold should be distributed in alms. (Tritton, Islam, p. 135). None of the hairs of the child are cut until the seventh day when the ceremony duly takes place. It appears to have no obvious Islamic significance and is probably derived from the Jewish practice of redeeming the first-born in any Israelite family with a sacrifice (Exodus 13.11-22). One writer has pointed out that in Tirmithi’s collection of traditions there is indeed a hadith which specifically links the Muslim Aqiqah to the Jewish ceremony: If in addition to all the resemblances to the Jewish practice already noted further testimony were necessary, it would be sufficient to refer to the statement made in the commentary of Al Buchari as the key to this true Sunna of the Prophet: "For the female child one ewe – and this abrogates the saying of those who disapprove a sacrifice for a girl – as did the Jews, who only made ‘aqiqa for boys." (On the authority of ‘Araki in Tirmidhi – Fath-ul-Bari V. 390). (Zwemer, The Influence of Animism on Islam, p. 102). It will be useful at this stage to see what cultic influences there were during Muhammad’s own life so as to determine whether all these strange practices found their way into Islam from animistic sources or whether some are not in fact actually Islamic in origin. http://answering-islam.org.uk/Gilchrist/Vol1/8c.html
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OP-ED COLUMNIST Love for Sale By MAUREEN DOWD
A twit quoting a twit. Ain’t the internet grand? steve
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OP-ED COLUMNIST Love for Sale By MAUREEN DOWD A twit quoting a twit. Ain’t the internet grand? steve
So you think it was ethical of Gallagher to not reveal that she’s a government employee pushing a government agenda as Wade Horn’s whore? Who else is a paid agent of the state? Marley
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OP-ED COLUMNIST Love for Sale By MAUREEN DOWD A twit quoting a twit. Ain’t the internet grand? So you think it was ethical of Gallagher to not reveal that she’s a government employee pushing a government agenda as Wade Horn’s whore? Who else is a paid agent of the state?
Um, just about everyone in Washington, all the activist organizations, all the unions, businesses and lobbying organizations, and all the big players in the MSM. For starters. Jonathan Alder has a nice story [1] about this today. When the Washington Post does a story about the environment, and quotes the World Wildlife Fund, and discloses that the WWF is receiving money from the federal government while at the same time lobbying the feds to give them more money and power — — then I’ll take your complaint seriously. steve [1] http://www.nationalreview.com/adler/adler200501271606.asp
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OP-ED COLUMNIST Love for Sale By MAUREEN DOWD A twit quoting a twit. Ain’t the internet grand? So you think it was ethical of Gallagher to not reveal that she’s a government employee pushing a government agenda as Wade Horn’s whore? Who else is a paid agent of the state? Um, just about everyone in Washington, all the activist organizations, all the unions, businesses and lobbying organizations, and all the big players in the MSM. For starters. Jonathan Alder has a nice story [1] about this today. When the Washington Post does a story about the environment, and quotes the World Wildlife Fund, and discloses that the WWF is receiving money from the federal government while at the same time lobbying the feds to give them more money and power — — then I’ll take your complaint seriously. steve
Nobody should be taking money from the government. Period. Once the government gives out money you’re theirs. The government is not a bank, it is not a benevolent charity, it does not have anyone’s best interest at heart–only its own survival. No organization should accept funds from the government, no matter how benevolent the gesture may appear on the surface or how needed the money is.. The best thing to do in this specific agency is to dismantle HHS which has no business existing; then go for the Dept. of Ed. Return local control of social services and education to the taxpayers. As for Maggie Gallagher, she’s a nut and always has been.. Anybody who would willingly sit in the same room with Wade Horn needs a mental checkup. What business is it of this NCFA pimp to encourage marriage to start with? It’s called MYOB–something the state is incapable of doing. And yes, I have a serious hard-on for Wade keep’em barefoot ane pregnant Horn Marley. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [1] http://www.nationalreview.com/adler/adler200501271606.asp
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OP-ED COLUMNIST Love for Sale By MAUREEN DOWD Published: January 27, 2005 ‘m herewith resigning as a member of the liberal media elite. I’m joining up with the conservative media elite. They get paid better. First comes news that Armstrong Williams got nearly a quarter of a million from the Education Department to plug No Child Left Behind. The families of soldiers killed in Iraq get a paltry $12,000. But good publicity? Priceless. Advertisement Mr. Williams helped out the first President Bush and Clarence Thomas during the Anita Hill scandal. Mr. Williams, who served as Mr. Thomas’s personal assistant at the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission when the future Supreme Court justice was gutting policies that would help blacks, gleefully attacked Professor Hill, saying, "Sister has emotional problems," and telling The Wall Street Journal "there is a thin line between her sanity and insanity." Now we learn from media reporter Howard Kurtz that syndicated columnist Maggie Gallagher had a $21,500 contract from the Health and Human Services Department to work on material promoting the agency’s $300 million initiative to encourage marriage. Ms. Gallagher earned her money, even praising Mr. Bush in print as a "genius" at playing "daddy" to the nation. "Mommies feel your pain," she wrote in 2002. "Daddies give you confidence that you can ignore the pain and get on with life." Genius? Not so much. Spendthrift? Definitely. W.’s administration was running up his astounding deficit paying "journalists" to do what they would be happy to do for free – just to be friends with benefits, getting access that tougher scribes are denied. Consider Charles Krauthammer, who went to the White House on Jan. 10 for what The Washington Post termed a "consultation" on the inaugural speech and then praised the Jan. 20th address on Fox News as "revolutionary," said Media Matters, a liberal watchdog group. I still have many Christmas bills to pay. So I’d like to send a message to the administration: THIS SPACE AVAILABLE. I could write about the strong dollar and the shrinking deficit. Or defend Torture Boy, I mean, the esteemed and sage Alberto Gonzales. Or remind readers of the terrific job Condi Rice did coordinating national security before 9/11 – who could have interpreted a memo titled "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside the United States" as a credible threat? – not to mention her indefatigable energy obscuring information undercutting the vice president’s dementia on Iraq. My preference is to get a contract with Rummy. It would be cost effective, compared with the latest $80 billion he needs to train more Iraqi security forces to be blown up. For half a mil, I could write a doozy of a column promoting Rummy’s phantasmagoric policies. What is all this hand-wringing about the 31 marines who died in a helicopter crash in Iraq yesterday? It’s only slightly more than the number of people who died in traffic accidents in California last Memorial Day. The president set the right tone, avoiding pathos when asked about the crash. "Obviously," he said, "any time we lose life it is a sad moment." Who can blame Rummy for carrying out policies of torture? We’re in an information age. Information is power. If people are not giving you the intelligence you want, you have to customize to get the intelligence you want to hear. That’s why Rummy also had to twist U.S. laws to secretly form his own C.I.A. A Pentagon memo said Rummy’s recruited agents could include "notorious figures," whose ties to the U.S. would be embarrassing if revealed, according to The Washington Post. Why shouldn’t a notorious figure like Rummy recruit notorious figures? I could write a column denouncing John McCain for trying to call hearings into Rummy’s new spy unit, suggesting the senator is just jealous because Rummy’s sexy enough to play James Bond. The president might need my help as well. He looked out of it yesterday when asked why his foreign policy is so drastically different from the one laid out in Foreign Affairs magazine in 2000 by Ms. Rice – a preview that did not emphasize promoting democracy and liberty around the world. "I didn’t read the article," Mr. Bush said. Why should he? Robert McNamara never read the Pentagon Papers. Why should W. bone up on his own foreign policy? Freedom means the freedom to be free from reading what you promise voters and other stuff. I could make that case – if the price was right.
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Question:
It would have been news if they came out and supported Bush’s proposal. It is not news to learn that they oppose the proposal.
AARP has never been for anything I am for.
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It would have been news if they came out and supported Bush’s proposal. It is not news to learn that they oppose the proposal.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – AARP opposes Bush’s SS AARP is the influential lobbying group that represents 36 million Americans aged 50 years or over. SS is Social Security which Bush plans to change. http://snipurl.com/canb http://snipurl.com/canh http://snipurl.com/canl http://snipurl.com/cann http://snipurl.com/cano http://snipurl.com/cant http://snipurl.com/canw http://snipurl.com/cany http://snipurl.com/cao2
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AARP opposes Bush’s SS AARP is the influential lobbying group that represents 36 million Americans aged 50 years or over. SS is Social Security which Bush plans to change. http://snipurl.com/canb http://snipurl.com/canh http://snipurl.com/canl http://snipurl.com/cann http://snipurl.com/cano http://snipurl.com/cant http://snipurl.com/canw http://snipurl.com/cany http://snipurl.com/cao2
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CPS is one hiding their records. That has been proven time and time again. Things are starting to open up, however.
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Apparently that was Newspaper headline. Whatever class of psychotropic medications are administered, the FDA is coming out with increasing evidence, that we as a nation, may have been too free in dispensing such meds to young children. You see, very FEW CLINICAL TRIALS ARE CONDUCTED ON KIDS UNDER 18, FOR OBVIOUS REASONS. Since the emergence of the Vioxx debacle, the whole science behind the pharmaceutical industry is in question. Many of us have training and expertise in such issues. More than DCF caseworkers, generally. And Cripe, there are many newspapers in FL now covering the issues of DCF. Headlines need to fit allocated space. BTW, do you have a citation which can verify that more DCF fosters are taking Ritalin class ADD type meds? DCF cannot even locate missing children. Their records are in shambles. DCF, FLORIDA, CPS, DEPARTMENT OF CHILDREN AND FAMILIES, CPS, CHILD PROTECTIVE, LAWSUITS, INFORMED CONSENT.
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Fern5827 wrote: > Apparently that was Newspaper headline.
Kinda goes to show yah, when it comes to accuracy in reporting, eh? > Whatever class of psychotropic medications are administered, the FDA is coming > out with increasing evidence, that we as a nation, may have been too free in > dispensing such meds to young children.
Long overdue. > You see, very FEW CLINICAL TRIALS ARE CONDUCTED ON KIDS UNDER 18, FOR OBVIOUS > REASONS.
Why are you yelling? The Brits used to do that when speaking to what they thought were ignorant natives. I doubt there are many here interested enough to read this that don’t know, or at least can’t intuit that what YOU YELL is true. Or are you just excited with your discovery like a child and have to "share?" > Since the emergence of the Vioxx debacle, the whole science behind the > pharmaceutical industry is in question.
Ho hum. What’s new? You really can’t possibly mean that this is the first time. > Many of us have training and expertise in such issues.
"Us?" Like "you" "us?" Furneal, you can barely tie your shoes without a child to assist. > More than DCF > caseworkers, generally.
Last I heard they didn’t pretend to be the experts. They used Douggie’s "jacklegs" for DX and RX and TX. > And Cripe, there are many newspapers in FL now covering the issues of DCF. > Headlines need to fit allocated space.
Let me see now. You cut NO slack for for what you want from CPS when they are struggling with budget shortfalls, high turnover, overmax caseloads, but we are to forgive the media for inaccuracies because they ran out of space. That’s nice. > BTW, do you have a citation which can verify that more DCF fosters are taking > Ritalin class ADD type meds?
I didn’t mention it. Obviously you can’t sort us out, and your records are in a shambles. > DCF cannot even locate missing children.
Yes they can. It takes workers, enough of them to do the work. > Their > records are in shambles.
You are lying or your memory is gone, if you are linking "records are in shambles" with missing children. In fact they caught up pretty well in Florida, WHEN THEY ADDED..oh, dear, that yelling thing must be catching…where was I now..oh yes: In fact they caught up pretty well in Florida, when they got more money allocated, paid to farm out some of the work to the cops, (who promptly hired caseworkers to investigate..don’tchajustloveit?) and hired on more hands to catchup with the paperwork. Must have happened because of all those workers riding around in cars, eh? Yer dumb as a stump, Furneal. And, like a stump, rotting from the top down. kane – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> DCF, FLORIDA, CPS, DEPARTMENT OF CHILDREN AND FAMILIES, CPS, CHILD PROTECTIVE, > LAWSUITS, INFORMED CONSENT.
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"Fern5827" <fern5…@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20050130084623.23044.00000383@mb-m01.aol.com… (snip) > BTW, do you have a citation which can verify that more DCF fosters are taking > Ritalin class ADD type meds? DCF cannot even locate missing children. Their > records are in shambles.
Can we clarify that a bit for you fern? The CPS files state clearly where the children are supposed to be, but not where they were when checked upon. These children are commonly called "Run-Away’s", and refuse to remain in the placements that the state has provided for them. Now, there is hte odd child out there that is missing for other reasons, but all the data shows clearly, even those news articles that care to attempt to address the non-CPS bashing sides of the issue, that the vast majority of your "missing" children theory are in fact …… wait for it …… Run Away’s. Police records confirm this, at least when they are checked by those writing these news articles. Spin, misrepresent, duck, and lie. fern does it all, again. Ron
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Study: 1 in 4 foster children on antidepressants Associated Press Last update: January 16, 2005 MIAMI — Powerful mood-altering drugs are being prescribed to one out of every four foster children under the care of Florida’s child welfare agency, according to a study that prompted concerns the medication is inappropriate, too costly and simply dangerous. The analysis, conducted by Florida’s Department of Children & Families, revealed that consultants hired by the state questioned "the appropriateness" of prescribing mental health drugs to 1,273 children, and told 442 doctors they were engaging in "questionable" practices. "There is evidence that some children … are prescribed psychotropic medications simply to address behavioral problems," DCF committee staff director Beverly Whiddon said. The issue has long been a concern for both child welfare advocates and state officials. In November 2003, former DCF secretary Jerry Regier told a Senate committee that the agency would undertake a study to examine whether psychotropic drugs are being properly prescribed to thousands of foster children. In the fiscal year that ended in June 2002, 5,137 foster children were prescribed psychotropic drugs, including 550 children 5 years old and younger, according to DCF data based solely on Medicaid records, not from HMOs or private insurance. Sen. Walter "Skip" Campbell, D-Tamarac and the chair of the Senate Children & Families Committee, said he will introduce a bill to be heard in this year’s legislative session seeking to curb the practice. Campbell has long been concerned about whether the practice results in addiction among kids to the medications. "This is a unique population, and I hate to see them used as guinea pigs," said state Sen. Evelyn Lynn, R-Ormond Beach. The study also revealed that one in 10 foster children is taking at least three psychiatric drugs simultaneously, and that the state’s cost for mental health drugs has nearly tripled since 2001 to a projected $680 million during this budget year. http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Headlines/03… Defend your civil liberties! Get information at http://www.aclu.org, become a member at http://www.aclu.org/join and get active at http://www.aclu.org/action.
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cripe…@aol.com wrote: > The article I read did not have in the headline "Anti-depressants." In > fact, more of those kids are prescribed stimulants for so-called ADHD, > clondine in comjucntion w/stimulants and anti-psychotics such as > risperidone (aka Risperdol).
Hi, Cripe. Well, yah have to unnerstan. We have a small crew here in about three ngs that are simply stumblebums. They stagger along and run head on into the wall called "facts" riochet off that and slam smack dab into the other one called, "the truth" and they run screaming off into the nearest stream of consciousness to wash off what they think is contamination. If you hang about you’ll see rather a lot of that. First off, if you haven’t lurked, you must understand the ground rules. We each have these labels they tend to give us. Dan Sullivan, for instance, is known as the "failure" because he suggests to family they actually do not engage in open anti CPS kill all caseworkers while you are trying to get your children back from CPS. Evidence of failure is found in dozens of cases were, I suppose by sheer accident, he did in fact help families not only get their kids back but get the founding unfounded, so to speak. I, on the other hand, explain matters of operations and field practice I’ve learned by nearly 30 years of various kinds of interaction with child protection, from serving on a county commission that oversaw them when they went from county to state, getting my first family cleared and the child NEVER taken, in 1976, to a long sort of coaching of relatives to do the right things to get their little kin to adopt and foster. My fortunate perspective has given me kind of an objective oversight of CPS. I’ve done a bit of lobbying, working on bills, testifing court, helping the occasional nearly honest politician 0;-> and making a study of actual field practice by hanging out with and befriending a lot of overworked caseworkers. I’m called, yessiree, a "Apologist." Of course, I’ve nailed CPS more than once on their error or oversight, and I’ve studied politically for a long time and can see when the legislators and various flora and fauna, such as we have a few of here, are going in a dangerous and destructive direction. Ron, along with other foster parents, have been making solid contributions to both children and this newsgroup…but of course that makes them hogs slopping at the PUBLIC TROUGH OF THE BILLION DOLLAR FOSTER INDUSTRY. Never mind Ron has to have jobs so he can maintain himself and family while doing this "slopping". You now. You are, of course, are just one of those evil, sneaky, undertrained, inexperienced, young women just out of school, but you took basket weaving for your batchlor’s, and have no children so what do you know. You sir, or madam, are a <echo> CCCCAAASSSEEEEWWWWOOOOORRRRKKKKKEEEERRR. </echo> <shuuuuudder> The lowest child stealing, fraudulent, tax monies devouring, drive around in the state car on state time harrassing innocent families, making up charges and using those sick risk assessment lists of "indicators" that were obviously created by Satan’s demons themselves, BEAST, don’tchaknow. Besides, you are a child killer, by deliberation and intent. The data shows that you and foster parents are, in collusion, responsible for it being 8 times more like a child will be abused in foster care than the general population and 3 times more likely of being killed. Honest. The experts here told me so. You may fill in anything I missed. Have a nice day, sir or madam. r r r r r Oh, wait. Did I forget? You are all liars, you caseworkers (if that’s your profession) because it’s in your financial interest to be, so children can and will be stolen to pump up the coffers of your agency with federal ransom money. Really. Except that after you’ve abused them, killed them, and squeezed all that foster money out of them, you finish them off by adopting them out for that huge bundle of boodle. That’s about it. Kane
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The article I read did not have in the headline "Anti-depressants." In fact, more of those kids are prescribed stimulants for so-called ADHD, clondine in comjucntion w/stimulants and anti-psychotics such as risperidone (aka Risperdol).
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