on chiropractors

Question:

Okay, I will give this one a shot too. When you have a severe attack it does not necessarily mean that it is a disk problem. Often times when a person moves a certain way and their back "gives out" it can be from what is called a miniscoid entrapment. Or, more simply, part of the joint capsule get caught between the to joint surfaces thus causing a severe amout of pain when moving. Other times it can be from the disk, but if you have already been diagnosed with a disk problem then the pain goes away…you still have a damaged disk. In other words maybe the fact that the disk is damaged has nothing to do with the pain or maybe it is causing the muscles to become tense and cause pain from that route. I guess part of the problem is that most people don’t really know what a disk is, other than some kind of shock absorber between the vertabrae.

A disk is just that, a shock absorber between the bones in the back (vertebrae). It is composed of a fibrous outer layer and a gummy inner layer. It kind of resembles a small jelly donut When they’re damaged, what does this mean? There is a fluid inside, right? Does it dry up or leak out? I understand the disk can protrude pushing against the nerve? And a chiro can "influence" it to go back?

When the disk is damaged it could me a number of things. First, since it is a ligament, you can pull it like any other ligament (sprain). Or you can tear some of the fibers, when these tears heal they are not as strong as they were in the past. After many years and many tears the center part (the jelly) begins to push out of the center and follow the easy path out, in this case along the old tear. Now imaging what would happen if you put a jelly donut on the table and gently pressed on the top. Eventually the jelly will come out the hole, this hole is like the tear. If the donut had no hole, you would be able to put more pressure before the donut (disk) burst, but it has damage so it is not as strong. The fluid inside can become dried up over time. This is mostly a factor of how much pressure is on the disks. For instance, someone who just walks all day will have pretty healthy disks, but someone who pogo jumps all day will have more pressure on the disks and the fluid will be driven out ( a little at a time). A disk can put pressure on the nerve though usually not directly. When the jelly comes out of the donut it moves other tissue between the disk and the nerve and it is the other tissue (fat, arteries etc.) that compresses the nerve, or irritates the nerve. The pain is more likely from the latter. The last part of this question is one of great controversy in the profession. I believe that a chiropractor cannot make the disk go back. A chiro may be able to reduce the bulge (I will explain the difference between bulge and herniation in a sec) a very little bit but studies have shown that even after pain relief from a chiropractor (or PT or DO) the disk is still bulging so it must be the relaxation of the muscles and the restoration of movement in the joint which give the nerve more "space" to go about its business. A bulge is when the outer layer has a bump on it, a herniation it when the jelly comes out of the donut, and a sequestration (the worst) is when a portion breaks free from the disk and is floating in the space. Do disks wear out with age? What does this have to do with arthritis? Isn’t this wearing out a kind of arthritis?

Yes they do and yes this is a form of arthritis. In fact, some nutrients that help arthritis of the knee etc. also help this form of arthritis in the spine. Nutrients such as glucosamine sulfate have been shown to decrease arthritis pain in the spine. The vertebra disk vertebra complex is a joint. Though a little more complex than other joints it can react in similar ways to stress as the other joints. Thus causing excess wear where there is extra stress (over use). When a surgeon does surgery on a disk, what does he really do? I’ve heard people say their surgeon removed a disk? Can they actually remove the entire disk?

There are a few things he can do and one IS removing the disk and fusing the two vertebra together. The problem with this procedure is the importance of motion that I discussed in the last post. When the two segments are fused, you no longer have that motion and often times still have the pain after surgery. What’s this I keep hearing about bone spurs? I’ve been told they are loose filaments of whatever on the inside of the disk usually and a surgeon will remove them. Now if those spurs are really there, how can a chiro positively influence the problem (without the surgery)?

No NO no. Okay a bone spur is a reaction of the bone (not the disk) to excess stress. The bone has ligaments attached to it (some being from the disk some from the muscles) and after time if there is over use ( like using a chain saw only in one direction) the ligament will begin to "pull" the outer layer of bone away from the rest of the bone. The bone reacts by producing more bone. This is sort of like an icicle on your house, it doesn’t form all at once but over time it can get quite large. This spur (usually pretty sharp) can then put pressure on anything that is around it like muscles or ligaments or even the nerve. And the way a chiro can effect it is by evening out the stresses in the back (in yesterdays example, make both arms lift the bar evenly). This is why I believe the regulating nerve flow theory is wrong. Because if a segment is fused and the joint doesn’t work, how can you affect that nerve? A friend was in a car accident 10 years ago and got whiplash. Then in the last few years he started to have a limp which got progressively worse. His surgeon said he had 2 damaged neck disks. Everyone was shocked about this conclusion. I mean, I know about the sciatica nerve affecting the leg, but a damaged neck disk causing a limp? So the friend had the disks "removed". But when I told this to my chiro he said, "the disks were probably not removed- just trimmed to remove the spurs". If the 2 disks were entirely removed- yikes! What will keep his vertebrae from falling or rubbing?

See the above answer, they dont rub because they dont move. It seems that about half the people I know in their late 40’s have had some kind of nasty spine problems. Seems to be related to getting old- even those of us that are active. It’s hard to be active but not too active.

Activity is good, as long as it is even and you are doing the proper nutritional things and exercising to keep the muscles strong (and of course getting adjusted for prevention). Anyways, thanks a million guys! And warning, if you keep answering my questions, I’ll keep asking more! But that’s a good way to inform the people who come here, as long as you guys have the time to respond.

Ask away. I love answering them as much as you like asking. And just a clue, chiropractors work on a lot more than the back, about half my patients are non back patients. They come in for shoulder, knee, ankle/foot etc. I’d be a good investigator or lawyer with my questioning skills.

agreed Dr. Dean Hoppenrath Alliance Chiropractic Center http://homepage.interaccess.com/~drdean "In weakness Power reaches perfection…For when I am weak, then I am strong." -2 Cor 12:9-10 Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Sec. 227, any and all nonsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 US. E-mailing denotes acceptance of these terms.

Response:

Thanks This has been very informative.

Response:

Now if I were asking questions in a law newsgroup, the lawyer answering my questions would ask for my address so he could hit me up for a few hundred bucks. <G Thanks again, and when I can think of some more questions I’ll be back.

Response:

Steves response is just one of a few theories as to how your body responds to chiropractic. His is more in line with the "old time" theory, I will try to explain chiropractic from a more modern theory that has significant backing in the scientific community (not that his doesn’t). I do feel good psychologically anyways leaving the chiro’s office. That is your body responding to regulated nerve function! Feels great, doesn’t it!

What many chiropractic colleges teach is that by moving the bones in the spine, you are regulating the nerve flow. Kind of like taking your foot off of a hose and letting the water run normal. I do not believe this is truly the case. Often, when a joint is not moving properly, or at all, fibrous bands called "adhesions" form within the joint further preventing movement of the joint complex. These adhesions are much like the fibers between the layers of meat when you tear apart a steak. What the adjustment does is breaks the adhesions allowing the joint to move properly. When this happens, the muscles that move that joint tend to relax because they are no longer trying to move an unmovable joint. There is also a nervous component in this theory of adjusting. When you move a joint that has had restricted motion, you stimulate the tiny nerve endings in the joint surface this in turn stimulates the descending nerves from the central nervous system causing either a relaxation effect on the muscles (somatic effect) or an effect on the internal organs (visceral effect). The response to the visceral effect is not as strong as I and many of my colleagues would like but there is an effect. I have seen an adjustment affect many visceral problems, though I must be honest, they were primarily digestive in nature. I have had 2 MDs suggest chiro treatment. My unproven theory is that my not infrequent "back attacks" don’t last as long if I get to the chiro right away, usually only a week at most rather than a month. Not to tell you what to do or anything, but they would probably be even less frequent, or altogether rare, if you were getting regular adjustments. Chiropractic works best when it is utilized as preventative care, although you have proven it works great for acute conditions, too.

OR a good home therapy plan, that you stick to, that will help strengthen your abdominals and back muscles. But I’m also very interested in almost everything. Whenever I go to any medical pratitioner and even dentists I always ask too many questions. This is the one problem we have in our society today concerning health care. Too few people ask the right questions. What is this? Whay are you prescribing this? What will it do for me? What are the side-effects? Instead, we accept whatever is given to us. Fewer than 40% of Americans even know the name of the prescribed medicines they are taking! THe beauty behind chiropractic is that it is so easy to understand and explain (in simplified terms) that we can really educate patients. There is too much diagnosing and treatment in health care and not enough education (coming from a licensed chemistry teacher/chiropractic student!).

An educated patient is one of the most powerful tools a chiropractor has. It has kept us in business far more than any lobbying could ever do. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -My chiro says that basically what he’s doing is "adjusting" the spine. OK, that’s sounds cool. But what the heck does this really mean? Chiropractors are nervous system specialists. There are two ways into the cnetral nervous system. The first is through the spine, and the second is through the cranial vault. Chiropractors regulate nerve function by adjusting the spine. The nervous system is a very sensitive system and highly responsive to pressure. When misalignments are present in the spine (subluxations- minute dislocations), nerves can either be working too much or too little. Chiropractors adjust the spine to remove these interferences. Since the nervous system controls every action of the body, either directly or indirectly, this has a direct influence on pain, immune function, etc. This is why chiropractic is for so many more problems than back pain! There are dozens of techniques out there, some being classified as classic techniques, others are low-force, and yet other more fringe techniques are very Asian in nature and deal with soft tissues, energy, etc.

Not nervous system specialists but neuro-musculo-skeletal system. In certain states we can also function as primary care doctors (non-specialists). Or is it just that muscles, ligaments, tendons, whatever, on one side are doing more than the other causing a strain? Both. The spine is a convenient attachment point for many of the strongest muscles of the spine. WHen these muslces are overused on one side, they can pull the spine out from optimum alignment. It’s sort the chicken and the egg argument!

Maybe not pull it out of alignment but most certainly put more stress on that half of your body (not just the spine). When you twist you are causing the muscles on one side to contract and the other side to stretch. In addition one side is developing more that the other. Look at it this way, if you just did biceps curls or your right arm every day for a year, do you think that the right side would be more developed? Of course. Now if you tried doing a curl using both arms and a curl bar, do you think that it would be level all the way up or would the right arm have an easier time. It would obviously be easier for the right than the left. The same thing happens in the back, one side gets the work out but when your doing normal activities the vertebrae are the curl bars and one side is working much easier than the other. If this is left untreated the imbalance is going to cause joint stress and eventually arthritis. My chiro seems to know what he’s doing as he’s been doing it for 44 years. The first time I went to him he grabed my head and twisted it vigorously and I heard all the bones in my neck crack, like when you crack your knuckles. I was shocked! I thought, "he’s gonna break my neck!" But, it felt good! Many of the older chiropractors like to hear a good audible when they adjust! It can be disconcerting your first few times, though!

We all love that sound, its our life blood. Though the beneficial effect comes from the motion NOT the sound! So, anyways, I’m still interested in the real techinical meaning of this term "adjustment". The term doesn’t really say much. What really is the basic underlying technique in chiro practice? Allowing the body to work at its optimum level through clearing nerve interference. It’s as simple as that!

See above, It isn’t THAT simple. I’d like to see one of you chiros here upload some essays on what chiro is all about- not something that sounds too philosophical and not some vague comments about adjusting the spine. I’d like something more technical about bones and muscles, so I can get a better idea of what you really do. Something about what really goes wrong with back discs from too much lifting and age and how chiro practice helps damaged disks.

You are asking for a whole lot more than an essay this could fill volumes. Dr. Dean Hoppenrath Alliance Chiropractic Center http://homepage.interaccess.com/~drdean "In weakness Power reaches perfection…For when I am weak, then I am strong." -2 Cor 12:9-10 Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Sec. 227, any and all nonsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 US. E-mailing denotes acceptance of these terms.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steves response is just one of a few theories as to how your body responds to chiropractic. His is more in line with the "old time" theory, I will try to explain chiropractic from a more modern theory that has significant backing in the scientific community (not that his doesn’t). I do feel good psychologically anyways leaving the chiro’s office. That is your body responding to regulated nerve function! Feels great, doesn’t it! What many chiropractic colleges teach is that by moving the bones in the spine, you are regulating the nerve flow. Kind of like taking your foot off of a hose and letting the water run normal. I do not believe this is truly the case. Often, when a joint is not moving properly, or at all, fibrous bands called "adhesions" form within the joint further preventing movement of the joint complex. These adhesions are much like the fibers between the layers of meat when you tear apart a steak. What the adjustment does is breaks the adhesions allowing the joint to move properly. When this happens, the muscles that move that joint tend to relax because they are no longer trying to move an unmovable joint. There is also a nervous component in this theory of adjusting. When you move a joint that has had restricted motion, you stimulate the tiny nerve endings in the joint surface this in turn stimulates the descending nerves from the central nervous system causing either a relaxation effect on the muscles (somatic effect) or an effect on the internal organs (visceral effect). The response to the visceral effect is not as strong as I and many of my colleagues would like but there is an effect. I have seen an adjustment affect many visceral problems, though I must be honest, they were primarily digestive in nature. I have had 2 MDs suggest chiro treatment. My unproven theory is that my not infrequent "back attacks" don’t last as long if I get to the chiro right away, usually only a week at most rather than a month. Not to tell you what to do or anything, but they would probably be even less frequent, or altogether rare, if you were getting regular adjustments. Chiropractic works best when it is utilized as preventative care, although you have proven it works great for acute conditions, too. OR a good home therapy plan, that you stick to, that will help strengthen your abdominals and back muscles. But I’m also very interested in almost everything. Whenever I go to any medical pratitioner and even dentists I always ask too many questions. This is the one problem we have in our society today concerning health care. Too few people ask the right questions. What is this? Whay are you prescribing this? What will it do for me? What are the side-effects? Instead, we accept whatever is given to us. Fewer than 40% of Americans even know the name of the prescribed medicines they are taking! THe beauty behind chiropractic is that it is so easy to understand and explain (in simplified terms) that we can really educate patients. There is too much diagnosing and treatment in health care and not enough education (coming from a licensed chemistry teacher/chiropractic student!). An educated patient is one of the most powerful tools a chiropractor has. It has kept us in business far more than any lobbying could ever do. My chiro says that basically what he’s doing is "adjusting" the spine. OK, that’s sounds cool. But what the heck does this really mean? Chiropractors are nervous system specialists. There are two ways into the cnetral nervous system. The first is through the spine, and the second is through the cranial vault. Chiropractors regulate nerve function by adjusting the spine. The nervous system is a very sensitive system and highly responsive to pressure. When misalignments are present in the spine (subluxations- minute dislocations), nerves can either be working too much or too little. Chiropractors adjust the spine to remove these interferences. Since the nervous system controls every action of the body, either directly or indirectly, this has a direct influence on pain, immune function, etc. This is why chiropractic is for so many more problems than back pain! There are dozens of techniques out there, some being classified as classic techniques, others are low-force, and yet other more fringe techniques are very Asian in nature and deal with soft tissues, energy, etc. Not nervous system specialists but neuro-musculo-skeletal system. In certain states we can also function as primary care doctors (non-specialists). Or is it just that muscles, ligaments, tendons, whatever, on one side are doing more than the other causing a strain? Both. The spine is a convenient attachment point for many of the strongest muscles of the spine. WHen these muslces are overused on one side, they can pull the spine out from optimum alignment. It’s sort the chicken and the egg argument! Maybe not pull it out of alignment but most certainly put more stress on that half of your body (not just the spine). When you twist you are causing the muscles on one side to contract and the other side to stretch. In addition one side is developing more that the other. Look at it this way, if you just did biceps curls or your right arm every day for a year, do you think that the right side would be more developed? Of course. Now if you tried doing a curl using both arms and a curl bar, do you think that it would be level all the way up or would the right arm have an easier time. It would obviously be easier for the right than the left. The same thing happens in the back, one side gets the work out but when your doing normal activities the vertebrae are the curl bars and one side is working much easier than the other. If this is left untreated the imbalance is going to cause joint stress and eventually arthritis. My chiro seems to know what he’s doing as he’s been doing it for 44 years. The first time I went to him he grabed my head and twisted it vigorously and I heard all the bones in my neck crack, like when you crack your knuckles. I was shocked! I thought, "he’s gonna break my neck!" But, it felt good! Many of the older chiropractors like to hear a good audible when they adjust! It can be disconcerting your first few times, though! We all love that sound, its our life blood. Though the beneficial effect comes from the motion NOT the sound! So, anyways, I’m still interested in the real techinical meaning of this term "adjustment". The term doesn’t really say much. What really is the basic underlying technique in chiro practice? Allowing the body to work at its optimum level through clearing nerve interference. It’s as simple as that! See above, It isn’t THAT simple. I’d like to see one of you chiros here upload some essays on what chiro is all about- not something that sounds too philosophical and not some vague comments about adjusting the spine. I’d like something more technical about bones and muscles, so I can get a better idea of what you really do. Something about what really goes wrong with back discs from too much lifting and age and how chiro practice helps damaged disks. You are asking for a whole lot more than an essay this could fill volumes. Dr. Dean Hoppenrath Alliance Chiropractic Center http://homepage.interaccess.com/~drdean "In weakness Power reaches perfection…For when I am weak, then I am strong." -2 Cor 12:9-10 Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Sec. 227, any and all nonsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 US. E-mailing denotes acceptance of these terms.

good job dean – bob

Response:

That is your body responding to regulated nerve function! Feels great, doesn’t it! I have had 2 MDs suggest chiro treatment. My unproven theory is that my not infrequent "back attacks" don’t last as long if I get to the chiro right away, usually only a week at most rather than a month.

Not to tell you what to do or anything, but they would probably be even less frequent, or altogether rare, if you were getting regular adjustments. Chiropractic works best when it is utilized as preventative care, although you have proven it works great for acute conditions, too. But I’m also very interested in almost everything. Whenever I go to any medical pratitioner and even dentists I always ask too many questions.

This is the one problem we have in our society today concerning health care. Too few people ask the right questions. What is this? Whay are you prescribing this? What will it do for me? What are the side-effects? Instead, we accept whatever is given to us. Fewer than 40% of Americans even know the name of the prescribed medicines they are taking! THe beauty behind chiropractic is that it is so easy to understand and explain (in simplified terms) that we can really educate patients. There is too much diagnosing and treatment in health care and not enough education (coming from a licensed chemistry teacher/chiropractic student!). <G My chiro says that basically what he’s doing is "adjusting" the spine. OK, that’s sounds cool. But what the heck does this really mean?

Chiropractors are nervous system specialists. There are two ways into the cnetral nervous system. The first is through the spine, and the second is through the cranial vault. Chiropractors regulate nerve function by adjusting the spine. The nervous system is a very sensitive system and highly responsive to pressure. When misalignments are present in the spine (subluxations- minute dislocations), nerves can either be working too much or too little. Chiropractors adjust the spine to remove these interferences. Since the nervous system controls every action of the body, either directly or indirectly, this has a direct influence on pain, immune function, etc. This is why chiropractic is for so many more problems than back pain! There are dozens of techniques out there, some being classified as classic techniques, others are low-force, and yet other more fringe techniques are very Asian in nature and deal with soft tissues, energy, etc. In my case, my lower back problems are directly related to too much lifting, especially doing chain saw work- and excessive Nautilus (which I finally quit). The chain saw is always held to one side so it seems like a perfect example of doing something that would twist the spine. But is it really twisted?

Or is it just that muscles, ligaments, tendons, whatever, on one side are doing more than the other causing a strain?

Both. The spine is a convenient attachment point for many of the strongest muscles of the spine. WHen these muslces are overused on one side, they can pull the spine out from optimum alignment. It’s sort the chicken and the egg argument! My chiro seems to know what he’s doing as he’s been doing it for 44 years. The first time I went to him he grabed my head and twisted it vigorously and I heard all the bones in my neck crack, like when you crack your knuckles. I was shocked! I thought, "he’s gonna break my neck!" But, it felt good!

Many of the older chiropractors like to hear a good audible when they adjust! It can be disconcerting your first few times, though! So, anyways, I’m still interested in the real techinical meaning of this term "adjustment". The term doesn’t really say much. What really is the basic underlying technique in chiro practice?

Allowing the body to work at its optimum level through clearing nerve interference. It’s as simple as that! Regarding the arguments in this group about chiro education- since the chiro’s work is so specialized, and since they don’t (?) presribe medicine and don’t do surgery I don’t see any reason that the education should be as scientifically demanding. And as far as demanding somewhat less grade point average than med school, so what? I know plenty of people who had high grades and who are pretty stupid outside their narrow field of expertise. Certainly for someone in rocket science the grade point score is critical, but not as critical in this form of body therapy. Even with MDs, personality and bedside manner is very important and their understanding of the patient’s psychological needs.

Chiropractic requires an intense knowledge of human anatomy, physiology, and nervous system. We don’t have to worry about killing people with a wrong dosage, or cutting out the wrong organ, so we are one up on medicine there! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’d like to see one of you chiros here upload some essays on what chiro is all about- not something that sounds too philosophical and not some vague comments about adjusting the spine. I’d like something more technical about bones and muscles, so I can get a better idea of what you really do. Something about what really goes wrong with back discs from too much lifting and age and how chiro practice helps damaged disks. And what may possibly bring out the sceptics is too much talk about how chiro practice is a panacea for every known illness. When chiros brag too much you’re asking for trouble. You’re back therapists and yes, an injured back can effect other parts of the body- no question about it, but don’t claim too much! And, I’m far more sceptical about MD’s. I don’t care how smart they are, they’ve never done anything for me but give me bad advice and many have very definitely tried to suck dry my bank account. Except for one elderly quaint Englishman (here in USA), who discusses my problems like a grandpa. I always feel great after seeing him and I don’t leave him with a prescription for pills. He seems to understand that most illness is psychosomatic and that a good discussion is what counts. And he has taken as much as an hour to do this! Unlike most MDs who rush me in and out of their office in 5 mintues.

Many MD’s are more moderate and holistic in their approach. They have been in practice long enough to see that they methods they were taught are not the ultimate form of health care. We have a lot to learn! I cvan give you some references of decent books and maybe some website addresses, but I don’t have them with me right now. Feel free to email me for more infoa nd discussion! Steve P{almer College of Chiropractic. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -And if anyone here is planning on flaming me, don’t. You might need a chiro when I get done flamming you back! <G An honest discussion is fine including negative comments.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve read your message and others here, but I haven’t seen anything about damaged disks. When I have a severe attack, doesn’t this indicate a damaged disk? A friend had these problems and his neurosurgeon showed him scans of this back showing the damage. I guess part of the problem is that most people don’t really know what a disk is, other than some kind of shock absorber between the vertabrae. When they’re damaged, what does this mean? There is a fluid inside, right? Does it dry up or leak out? I understand the disk can protrude pushing against the nerve? And a chiro can "influence" it to go back? Do disks wear out with age? What does this have to do with arthritis? Isn’t this wearing out a kind of arhritis? When a surgeon does surgery on a disk, what does he really do? I’ve heard people say their surgeon removed a disk? Can they actually remove the entire disk? What’s this I keep hearing about bone spurs? I’ve been told they are loose filaments of whatever on the inside of the disk usually and a surgeon will remove them. Now if those spurs are really there, how can a chiro positively influence the problem (without the surgery)? A friend was in a car accident 10 years ago and got whiplash. Then in the last few years he started to have a limp which got progessively worse. His surgeon said he had 2 damaged neck disks. Everyone was shocked about this conclusion. I mean, I know about the sciatica nerve affecting the leg, but a damaged neck disk causing a limp? So the friend had the disks "removed". But when I told this to my chiro he said, "the disks were probably not removed- just trimmed to remove the spurs". If the 2 disks were entirely removed- yikes! What will keep his vertebrae from falling or rubbing? It seems that about half the people I know in their late 40’s have had some kind of nasty spine problems. Seems to be related to getting old- even those of us that are active. It’s hard to be active but not too active. Anyways, thanks a million guys! And warning, if you keep answering my questions, I’ll keep asking more! But that’s a good way to inform the people who come here, as long as you guys have the time to respond. I’d be a good investigator or lawyer with my questioning skills.

Bone spurs are osteophytes. they are calcific "protrusions" from around the joint. they are the result of the degenerative process whereby the joint is attempting to "re-stabilize" due to abnormal stress and the degenerative process. They occur in the third stage of the degenerative cascade – the reastabilization phase. This is well documented in medical literature. What chiros can do is manipulation. this restores the normal movement of the affected joints braking up "adhesion" or intra/extraarticular scar tissue so that the nerve roots are not tractioned by movement. Normal nerves have to be able to slide within their paths or they will get injured. For example, in the wrist the median nerve must be able to slide 7-11 mm during normal wrist flexion/extension to avoid traction injury. manipulation also helps prevent further cartilaginous degeneration since articular cartilage recieves its nutrition supply from synovial fluid – the fluid in joints. Articaular cartilage is avascular – no blood supply. Movement spreads the synovial fluid around the cartilage. It is secreted for a membrane wthin the joint capsule called synovium. Neurophysiologically, pain is reduced through manipulation. Sensory input from the mechanoreceptors within joint capsules provide the central nervous system with information about the environment, body position, velocity of movement, etc. When there is an abundance of this afferent traffic in to the cord from movement, pain is neuorlogically inhibited in a part of the spinal cord called the dorsal horn. This was published by a few phDs in the late 60s. Melzack and Wall. It is a hallmark paper in the world of neuophysiology and stands proven to this day. It is known as the gate control theory of pain inhibition. the same reason that you rub your leg after you walk into the living room table at night. The extra sensory input gaits pain at the spinal cord. i could go on and on but my fingers are tired. email me if you have any more questions dr. richeson

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I’ve read your message and others here, but I haven’t seen anything about damaged disks. When I have a severe attack, doesn’t this indicate a damaged disk? A friend had these problems and his neurosurgeon showed him scans of this back showing the damage. I guess part of the problem is that most people don’t really know what a disk is, other than some kind of shock absorber between the vertabrae. When they’re damaged, what does this mean? There is a fluid inside, right? Does it dry up or leak out? I understand the disk can protrude pushing against the nerve? And a chiro can "influence" it to go back? Do disks wear out with age? What does this have to do with arthritis? Isn’t this wearing out a kind of arhritis? When a surgeon does surgery on a disk, what does he really do? I’ve heard people say their surgeon removed a disk? Can they actually remove the entire disk? What’s this I keep hearing about bone spurs? I’ve been told they are loose filaments of whatever on the inside of the disk usually and a surgeon will remove them. Now if those spurs are really there, how can a chiro positively influence the problem (without the surgery)? A friend was in a car accident 10 years ago and got whiplash. Then in the last few years he started to have a limp which got progessively worse. His surgeon said he had 2 damaged neck disks. Everyone was shocked about this conclusion. I mean, I know about the sciatica nerve affecting the leg, but a damaged neck disk causing a limp? So the friend had the disks "removed". But when I told this to my chiro he said, "the disks were probably not removed- just trimmed to remove the spurs". If the 2 disks were entirely removed- yikes! What will keep his vertebrae from falling or rubbing? It seems that about half the people I know in their late 40’s have had some kind of nasty spine problems. Seems to be related to getting old- even those of us that are active. It’s hard to be active but not too active. Anyways, thanks a million guys! And warning, if you keep answering my questions, I’ll keep asking more! But that’s a good way to inform the people who come here, as long as you guys have the time to respond. I’d be a good investigator or lawyer with my questioning skills.

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I have been seeing a chiro for several years and I’m the worlds most cynical and skeptical person. I don’t have any proof that the treatment really works but not any that it doesn’t and it’s not that expensive and I do feel good psychologically anyways leaving the chiro’s office. I have had 2 MDs suggest chiro treatment. My unproven theory is that my not infrequent "back attacks" don’t last as long if I get to the chiro right away, usually only a week at most rather than a month. But I’m also very interested in almost everything. Whenever I go to any medical pratitioner and even dentists I always ask too many questions. <G My chiro says that basically what he’s doing is "adjusting" the spine. OK, that’s sounds cool. But what the heck does this really mean? In my case, my lower back problems are directly related to too much lifting, especially doing chain saw work- and excessive Nautilus (which I finally quit). The chain saw is always held to one side so it seems like a perfect example of doing something that would twist the spine. But is it really twisted? Or is it just that muscles, ligaments, tendons, whatever, on one side are doing more than the other causing a strain? My chiro seems to know what he’s doing as he’s been doing it for 44 years. The first time I went to him he grabed my head and twisted it vigorously and I heard all the bones in my neck crack, like when you crack your knuckles. I was shocked! I thought, "he’s gonna break my neck!" But, it felt good! So, anyways, I’m still interested in the real techinical meaning of this term "adjustment". The term doesn’t really say much. What really is the basic underlying technique in chiro practice? Regarding the arguments in this group about chiro education- since the chiro’s work is so specialized, and since they don’t (?) presribe medicine and don’t do surgery I don’t see any reason that the education should be as scientifically demanding. And as far as demanding somewhat less grade point average than med school, so what? I know plenty of people who had high grades and who are pretty stupid outside their narrow field of expertise. Certainly for someone in rocket science the grade point score is critical, but not as critical in this form of body therapy. Even with MDs, personality and bedside manner is very important and their understanding of the patient’s psychological needs. I’d like to see one of you chiros here upload some essays on what chiro is all about- not something that sounds too philosophical and not some vague comments about adjusting the spine. I’d like something more technical about bones and muscles, so I can get a better idea of what you really do. Something about what really goes wrong with back discs from too much lifting and age and how chiro practice helps damaged disks. And what may possibly bring out the sceptics is too much talk about how chiro practice is a panacea for every known illness. When chiros brag too much you’re asking for trouble. You’re back therapists and yes, an injured back can effect other parts of the body- no question about it, but don’t claim too much! And, I’m far more sceptical about MD’s. I don’t care how smart they are, they’ve never done anything for me but give me bad advice and many have very definitely tried to suck dry my bank account. Except for one elderly quaint Englishman (here in USA), who discusses my problems like a grandpa. I always feel great after seeing him and I don’t leave him with a prescription for pills. He seems to understand that most illness is psychosomatic and that a good discussion is what counts. And he has taken as much as an hour to do this! Unlike most MDs who rush me in and out of their office in 5 mintues. And if anyone here is planning on flaming me, don’t. You might need a chiro when I get done flamming you back! <G An honest discussion is fine including negative comments.

Response:

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