NO THANK YOU "DR." HULDA CLARK
Question:
Funny, but the one field I do know that does contain many folks who failed to get into MD medical school is American osteopathic medicine.
This may have been true in the past at some schools, but it is certainly untrue today. My med class: applicant pool: less than 1/10 applicants accepted included in the class: Ph.D.s, other advanced degrees; at least one child prodigy (college at 14, etc.), many with credentials far and above those at allopathic schools (grades, MCAT scores, other achievements)… including me. I chose to go to an osteopathic school (despite the Dean of Science telling me I was a "guaranteed acceptance" at top allopathic schools). Amy "It is better to have the ring of freedom in your ears than in your nose." Thurber
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My heavens… HD, AF, and Jan all agreed with me on one point or another… (clutching heart) ;) Hilary
Your attitude is an excellent response
to a situation that requires you to discuss things you don’t know a great deal about with someone who does.< <snip Your balanced approach will keep it from turning to cynicism. And,
your methods will yield results. Bonne chance. hd<
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Naturopathy isn’t the panacea people think it is. But neither is conventional medicine. I trust my doctor implicitly– but partly because he treats me (gasp!) like a person with a brain and NOT just like a person with a checkbook, and partly because when I said "herbal" he didn’t freak out and start acting like I was a lunatic. That tells me he’s at least reserving judgement. And frankly, so am I. And I am going to be leery of anyone for whom the jury still *isn’t* out.
I hear this sort of thing quite a bit from people who have taken any time to get to know their doctor. I’m surprised by the number of people who claim that their doctors are utterly closed minded to anything labeled alternative. I post on sci.med and I haven’t seen a single doc there that rejects alt meds a priori, although most of them get accused of it. Your attitude is an excellent response to a situation that requires you to discuss things you don’t know a great deal about with someone who does. And your life may depend on it. A tricky situation. Almost everybody is an expert on something, if only their own conscience, and nobody appreciates being told they are wrong about a topic on which they are an expert. It is difficult to admit that someone can know far more about your body than you ever will. But most doctors do. (Not that they always get it right. Not anywhere near always. But the good ones will admit that to you.) I expect that your skepticism will grow along with your knowledge. Your balanced approach will keep it from turning to cynicism. And, your methods will yield results. Bonne chance. hd
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is long. My apologies, but…. I feel compelled to throw something in here. We all know that radiation and chemo are reasonably reliable methods by which cancer is treated and, in many cases, put back into remission. (I’m not getting into the treatment-is-worse-than-the-disease debate here.) We also know there are many cases (usually advanced) in which this does not work. Excellent. That is exactly correct. Nice to see someone with a sense of proportion and a knack for accuracy join the fray. All of these self-proclaimed doctors of naturopathy are basically doing the one thing that makes quackery appeal to people and make converts of them. Of course it’s easier to listen to someone who comes off as "educated" when they tell you "use this device and it will fix everything." This is especially dangerous to those who have been suffering for long periods with pain, depression, fatigue… the reason is because it keeps you from having to TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN HEALTH. Bingo. I couldn’t have put it more precisely myself. You have described Hulda Clark’s quack-appeal exactly. Chemo and radiation have been proven to work. For exactly how long, I don’t know. Yes. Precisely. The standard measure of a "cure" is five-year survival rates. Many people here think that means chemo "only works for five years" in some percentage of cases for most cancers. That’s not what it means. It is an arbitrary time period used to standardize comparisons between various therapies. There are herbs that have been proven to work for certain ailments for centuries as well Not for cancer, at least not "proven" in the scientific sense. hey, I’m all for the placebo effect. But let’s be real: no one who has had herbalism handed down over generations has ever said "This cures cancer, this one little plant here." Otherwise the rest of the world would know about it by now, surely, and it would be the end-all-be-all. Like herbs, not all conventional treatments work for all people. It depends on chemistry and your own dedication to your health. The problem with people who rely too heavily on "quacks" and, to be fair, on MD’s as well, is that they have handed over their bodies and have decided they can’t and/or won’t do anything about it themselves anymore. And that’s wrong. Brilliantly put. You are a refreshingly bright and articulate voice in this discussion. AF
I thought your post was excellent also. However, it proves that people read things differently. I believe you must take responsibility for your own health. This means checking out every possible cause. It would seem that some here on this NG, put you down for this. I have know people who go to the doctor (both alt. and conventional), and never question what they are told, don’t understand it and don’t care to find out. This is wrong. Jan
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| Brilliantly put. You are a refreshingly bright and articulate voice in | this discussion. | | AF Thank you! from you, that means a lot to me. I do believe that medicine is moving in the direction of the unconventional; that is, the "nutraceutical" market. Correctly done, I think this has a lot of potential. Till then, it’s a matter of people finding what works for them. It’s not always going to be one thing. And unfortunately, it’s not always going to be the same thing twice. Believe me, I ran the gamut– I’ve researched everything from depression to endometritis looking for treatments and cures, and there just plain isn’t one. Naturopathy isn’t the panacea people think it is. But neither is conventional medicine. I trust my doctor implicitly– but partly because he treats me (gasp!) like a person with a brain and NOT just like a person with a checkbook, and partly because when I said "herbal" he didn’t freak out and start acting like I was a lunatic. That tells me he’s at least reserving judgement. And frankly, so am I. And I am going to be leery of anyone for whom the jury still *isn’t* out. — Hilary "I know yesterday was Friday, but it would be just like Monday to bump off Saturday and Sunday so it could get me sooner." – Garfield Practical Magic for your home, body, and spirit: http://members.xoom.com/practclmagic/
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| Most physicians cannot help | a person with this. One has to go to a person who has some experience | helping people detox from mercury. In addition, by eliminating major | exposure to mercury (e.g., mercury amalgams), it gives the body a chance | to detoxify on its own. Of course, it may be impossible to eliminate | *all* of the mercury. I am not sure I understand this. Again, I feel like if there were a proven way to even *reduce* the amount of mercury in an individual’s system, then it would be all over the news. So I don’t see how a physician cannot help, but a naturopath can. Or… whoever it is that "has some experience helping people detox from mercury." If that’s not a physician, I don’t know who that is. | However, it | think it can be equally useful to see a practitioner when a person has an | condition (e.g., cancer, heart disease, ADD, etc.). Such a practitioner | might be a Naturopath, Osteopath, Oriental Medicine Doctor, Ayurvedic | Medicine practitioner, MD, Chiropractor, Herbalist, Holistically-Trained | MD, or some combination of these or other practitioners. I definitely think people should see a practitioner. I think they should start with a conventional one, and move "out" from there, of course depending on the severity of the problem. If I can spend $10 on an herbal acne product versus $75 or $90 (I have no idea what the cost might be, to be honest) on a visit to a dermatologist plus the cost of the medication, you bet I am opting for the herb. On the other hand, if I find a lump in my breast, now is not the time to start drinking tea. I don’t care how "invasive" a biopsy is, I’m gonna go get one. — Hilary "I know yesterday was Friday, but it would be just like Monday to bump off Saturday and Sunday so it could get me sooner." – Garfield Practical Magic for your home, body, and spirit: http://members.xoom.com/practclmagic/
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I’m sorry folks but mercury poisoning is mercury poisoning. It’s a heavy metal. I don’t think there is any proven way to purge it from your body. I would really like to hear from someone who knows about this if I am wrong.
Hilary, There are proven ways to eliminate a significant portion of the mercury from your body. The drugs DMPS and DMSA are commonly-used. But there are also natural substances shown to help reduce mercury burden. I know some classical Homeopaths that have helped mercury-poisoned individuals, but I don’t know the exact treatment that was used. Most physicians cannot help a person with this. One has to go to a person who has some experience helping people detox from mercury. In addition, by eliminating major exposure to mercury (e.g., mercury amalgams), it gives the body a chance to detoxify on its own. Of course, it may be impossible to eliminate *all* of the mercury. The problem with people who rely too heavily on "quacks" and, to be fair, on MD’s as well, is that they have handed over their bodies and have decided they can’t and/or won’t do anything about it themselves anymore. And that’s wrong.
I agree that it is important to consider lifestyle changes. However, it think it can be equally useful to see a practitioner when a person has an condition (e.g., cancer, heart disease, ADD, etc.). Such a practitioner might be a Naturopath, Osteopath, Oriental Medicine Doctor, Ayurvedic Medicine practitioner, MD, Chiropractor, Herbalist, Holistically-Trained MD, or some combination of these or other practitioners. These practitioners should also be able to help with diet and lifestyle changes suggestions. Fortunately, people in most countries are free to choose what type of treatment they want (even for their children, see: http://naturalhealthvillage.com/newsletter/990515/liam.htm ). Best Wishes, - Mark Holistic Healing Web Page http://www.HolisticMed.com/
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AF again: Huh? You explained that you were pursuing a full mouth extraction. That’s what I said. What else should I have "picked up on"?
The reason why I may have to have a full mouth extraction. You seem to think it is something I want. How many times to I need to explain why it is a risk to have my mercury amalgams changed to a new type amalgam that may be just as toxic??? Did you not read how toxic they can be? Seesh, Jan
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AF gives up: Enough. I’m back out of this argument again.
Givin up huh? When the going gets tuff??? Jan
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This is long. My apologies, but…. I feel compelled to throw something in here. We all know that radiation and chemo are reasonably reliable methods by which cancer is treated and, in many cases, put back into remission. (I’m not getting into the treatment-is-worse-than-the-disease debate here.) We also know there are many cases (usually advanced) in which this does not work. One thing we have to look at also is those people with knowledge in the uses of herbs (real knowledge, the kind either earned as an ND or a certified herbalist) understand that it takes more than a cup of this or that tea a day to treat cancer, never mind cure it. It takes a whole lifestyle approach. Based on all the reading I have done, people who use plants to their benefit tend to be very in touch with their bodies and their health; go to alt.folklore.herbs and just read the thread on microwaves. Not that I am making any statements about microwaves, BUT those of us who have them know how easy it is to just throw in a little breaded saturated fat sandwich and have lunch in 30 seconds. There’s a whole slew of foods that are bad for you that go right into a microwave. I am using this as an example of the whole lifestyle that goes along with really understanding health if you are using a holistic approach. I have never heard anyone who is a qualified practicing herbalist say "This will cure you. No you don’t have to change your diet or do anything else, just eat this." That’s ridiculous. I am sure we can all agree on that. Many responsible herbalists will not even recommend something over the internet but would recommend a full work up and evaluation (most responsible health professionals of any persuasion would at the very least ask for detailed information about the health problem, unless it’s a minor one like acne or sinus headaches, etc.) I do believe that herbs and aromatherapy oils can be used to alleviate suffering while conventional treatments do their thing, but there is no cure for cancer. Period. There are ways to send it into remission, and there are times when people die from it. There are things you can do to improve your quality of life while you are undergoing treatment. There are methods by which you can decrease your risk of cancer. Some herbalists say raspberry tea, some say red clover supplements… NONE of them will tell you that can go without dietary changes or an increase in exercise. They just released on the news that women who drink a lot of milk and eat cheese and other dairy to increase their calcium intake are at a higher risk for cancer. I’m waiting for someone to say, "oh my god, calcium causes cancer!" No, it’s just that the saturated fat in dairy products contributes to the risk. Neither do I believe that microwave radiation of the type found in your kitchen causes cancer, but eat enough corn dogs and sausage sandwiches and you’ll get my point. Do I use one? Hell yeah. And if I get sick, I’ll know exactly why, and not because it was an industrial-medical-complex conspiracy to get my money. All of these self-proclaimed doctors of naturopathy are basically doing the one thing that makes quackery appeal to people and make converts of them. Of course it’s easier to listen to someone who comes off as "educated" when they tell you "use this device and it will fix everything." This is especially dangerous to those who have been suffering for long periods with pain, depression, fatigue… the reason is because it keeps you from having to TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN HEALTH. I’m sorry folks but mercury poisoning is mercury poisoning. It’s a heavy metal. I don’t think there is any proven way to purge it from your body. I would really like to hear from someone who knows about this if I am wrong. But my point is, if you have been evaluated by a doctor and have been diagnosed with this, then your options are to do what the doctor tells you and then improve your diet and exercise to make you feel better while the mercury sits in your body till you die a (hopefully) natural death. Exercise is actually very good for malaise. Sure, you can supplement with some herbs for energy or a little essential oil for calming at night. Whatever helps you as long as it’s not contraindicated by your doctor based on whatever he has you taking. Chemo and radiation have been proven to work. For exactly how long, I don’t know. There are herbs that have been proven to work for certain ailments for centuries as well (it didn’t used to be herbalism, it used to be witchcraft, but it is the same concept and in many cases, very similar in practice). And hey, I’m all for the placebo effect. But let’s be real: no one who has had herbalism handed down over generations has ever said "This cures cancer, this one little plant here." Otherwise the rest of the world would know about it by now, surely, and it would be the end-all-be-all. Like herbs, not all conventional treatments work for all people. It depends on chemistry and your own dedication to your health. The problem with people who rely too heavily on "quacks" and, to be fair, on MD’s as well, is that they have handed over their bodies and have decided they can’t and/or won’t do anything about it themselves anymore. And that’s wrong. Hilary
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You know who again: However, I believe there is a slight difference between what I am doing (replacing my degraded amalgam fillings slowly) and what you propose — a full mouth extraction.
And who is it that only reads one line? I have explained the full mouth It’s true. I’ve actually been thinking about going to med school after I get tenure. But you don’t need a weatherman to see which way the wind blows, and you don’t need an MD to spot a hypochondriac.
windy stories just keep getter better! Jan
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Nice to see you apologize, stand corrected and admit to a momment of snarly temper, state that your remark was a bit of a throwaway and uncalled for. I have done so many times in the last few years. Everyone loses their cool sometimes. Adults know how to admit it. Would that you could do the same.
Come down off your high horse AF. I have apologized many times. Do a power search, you will find them. Remember when you were going to take a few days off, and I posted "This is very serious folks, this man is teaching college kids how to interact with society" You came back on the next day to defend yourself. I apologized to you. I did because I had hurt your feelings (I still stand by my word that I stated) and that is something I try never to do. Oh yes, I know that you will say you were not hurt ( most atheists believe this is a weakness) but we all know that you were hurt. I also have stated many times (when you were criticizing my computer skills) that I was new at the computer, so please be patient with me. I don’t have a problem with stating my weaknesses, or asking for help. Unlike you, I don’t claim to know it all or try to degrade others who are sincere. However only momments earlier (in a private e-mail) you acussed me of being unbalanced, and wanted to drop the matter, (because you had tripped yourself up) How had I tripped myself up, exactly? As I recall, I had succssfully demonstrated that Arthur Doerkson was another b.s. artist and Hulda Clark cultist who, like all of you, could not prove a single one of his outrageous claims, and then split the difference with you on the mercury
amalgam question. Yes, you finally split with the amalgam question, after I called your hand on being a hypocrite, and sent you some info. stating the dangers of mercury amalgams. You were acussing me of falling for a scam….then I learn you are having your mercury fillings replaced. BTW, I see you didn’t post that exchange between us, or the second half of my e-mail to you on Friday. There were others that you didn’t post either. You seem to be selective with what you posted. So I will post the others. Jan, sometimes I wonder if you ever read my messages all the way through. Sometimes it seems like you see one sentence and reply to that./
Possibly. I believe we are all guilty of that…..you couldn’t ever remember me apologizing. and even threadened to call AOL if I e-mailed you again. It is OK for you to e-mail me, I guess you have two different set of rules?
I did not "threaten" you. Nor do I play by two sets of rules. After we had gone back and forth about mercury amalgam and the great Arthur Doerkson on private email (in an exchange which YOU initiated), you started to
get more and more hysterical That AF is a lie. But I will post "all" of the exchange between us, then the reader can see if I got hysterical. and I decided that I didn’t want to blend our public debates with my private email (because I don’t like messages from hysterical hypochondriacs in my inbox).
More politeness and compassion……or more diagnosis? Maybe you missed your calling….should have went to med school?? quite politely, to cease sending me email. True I did say that if you didn’t, I would ask AOL to So I asked you, quite politely, to cease sending me email. True I did say that if you didn’t, I would ask AOL to intervene. I just wanted to make sure that you understood I was serious about my request.
Good explanation(atheist are very good at explaining things As for "two sets of rules," what are you talking about?
I believe I have already answered that in another post. This is a public newsgroup. I am happy to debate you here. I don’t want to have an email relationship with you. One set of rules covers both contingencies. You can say anything you like about me here — and you have and will, I’ms ure — and you will NEVER hear me challenge your right to do so. By participating in this public group, I invite public replies and have no right to censor the content of such replies. You have a hard time grasping this
Now you have switched from MD diagnosis to becoming a shrink? when it comes to YOUR own situation — you post your crazy theories (one week it’s parasites, one week it’s chemicals, the next week it’s mercury fillings) and you make your own health a matter of public record and a subject of public debate
If you will recall, I was ask to post my health condition, by Roger. I thought it was only fair, so the readers wouldn’t have to guess as to what we were talking about.. please forgive me for trying to be considerate. , then you cry foul when others respond critically to these public postings. WHo’s really playing by two sets of rules here, Jan?
I don’t believe I have cried foul, I have only objected to your arrogance and put downs (as have many others) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I just want to know where Hulda got her ND. Oh, modulating again? which is it. You don’t care, or you still want to know? Make up thou mind!! I’d still like to know, but I really don’t care. Get it? I’m not going to make a major case or effort over the matter, since Hulda Clark is a raving quack whether her ND is legitimate or not. You keep the game up, Jan, but nobody else is playing. If you know that Hulda has a real ND from an accredited program in the US, it’s in your interest — and hers — to let us know. Otherwise, the obvious and reasonable conclusion is that she has a mail-order degree. Being of a scientific mindset, I prefer the simple and reasonable conclusion, and in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I hold to it. The outcome of the matter is irrelevant to my overall opinion of Clark’s merit as a medical authority, which is to say, her lack of merit as a medical authority.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, we have been her before, already done that! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – that Geoduck has outted your gal, can youi confirm that she sent away for her ND after reading an offer on the back of a Sri Lankan matchbook? all the very highest of intelligence, and the right connections, you can find out? After all, you claim to know the reporter who is checking out all the clinics in Mexico. Yep. My reporter friend is going to find out Hulda’s dirty little secrets. That’s her/his job. One’s scientific credentials are not supposed to be difficult to check. THis is a decidable, empirical question. If I could stomach the thought, I’d call Clark’s clinic and ask. But I have better things to do with $1.75 than call Tijuana quacks. The point is that Hulda’s myriad PR materials, at least those I have seen, carefully avoid telling us where she trained as a clinician. Occam’s razor suggests we conclude that is because she never did train as a clinician. You have been told by the people she has helped what they think of her work, plus how grateful they are. You need to open your ears and close your mouth. Funny how not one of them can prove a single one of the claims they make. I’ve had people tell me how much they were helped by heroin too. Guess I should just take those addicts’ word for it? I’ve heard other cultists tell me how much they were helped by this or that cult
That seems to be a favorite word of yours. You also believe that all MLMers are a cult also. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz . Mind if I ask for a shred of evidence Clark has ever cured anyone of anything? Neither you nor Doerkson, nor dozens of others like you has ever shown me any.
I believe you have been told by many here, that it is impossible to show you anything. How can you show something to one who already knows it all? Jan
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I wonder how people who have already earned a PhD, aren’t smart enough to go to medical school? I’m not sure what you mean
You know exactly what I meant. Hulda earned her PhD before earning an ND, and with all her previous training, it wasn’t hard for her to earn an ND. , but it’s true that PhD programs in the humanities and social sciences are, on average, less competitive than medical schools, on average, and thus have lower admissions requirements. If you meant the charge to stick to me, perhaps you’d like to see my college transcripts if I can find them, huh? I could have gone to medical school, had I been interested in doing so. I went to one of the top anthropology programs on a competitive national fellowship awarded to fewer than 25 students in the US every year out of thousands of applicants. My GRE scores were 800/750/750. I graduated magna cum laude from the best college in the country.
I have never doubted your intelligence, nor has anyone here, you have every right to be proud of your acccomplishments. It is your arrogance and your trying to make others’ feel stupid that rubs everyone the wrong way. How many times have you been told that, not only by me, but other readers? So far you have ignored it. The readers might be interested to know that when the going gets tough, and you are trapped and start being backed into a corner, you are ready to call the whole matter off. (This is in reference to private e-mail between AF and I, where he acussed me of falling for another scam. Then admitted that he was already using the alternative method. BTW, it was a method that Hulda Clark recommends!) What are you talking about Jan?
No need to play dumb, Aaron, You know what I mean. You have addressed it below in this post concerning the mercury amalgams. YOU started emailing me privately. I answered you politely and even followed up on your suggestion to check out Mr. Doerkson’s story, which of course turned out to be the usual bulldinky unsupportable by any medical proof, and obfuscated with a barrage of nonsensical conspiracy theory verbiage.
That is your opinion. I notice you did not comment on all the references of how chemo has not been proven to be the cure all that you claim. it to be. In my research of peripheral neuropathy, I found many references to the fact that chemo can cause it. I have also talked with many of these people who currently have peripheral neuropathy, and know that it was cause by the chemo. That is why I ask you if you wanted to trade one disease for another? Of course, as soon as "the going got tough," you went into hyper-drive again, spluttering insults and declaring your emotional disturbance
I suggest you go back and read my e-mail again. Then come back and retract these words. so I asked you politely not to email me privately anymore. I like to spar on a public email with all kinds of people I would rather not invite into my private email world, which is very busy. As an AOL-using newbie, you seem to know little netiquette, but you might like to know that it is rarely appropriate to email people you know from newsgroups privately unless they invite it
That is another hang up you have. I have been e-mail privately by many readers here (most of them encouraging me to tell you where to get off at) who were not only concerned about my health, but felt I didn’t need you adding any extra stress to my life. They also invited me to e-mail them anytime. You are the only one who thinks it is a problem. You also seem to respond to my e-mail present something to you that leaves a little egg on your face, you start spurting the netiquette crap. That is an easy out. . As for "the alternative method" you mention, let’s be clear. You’re talking about changing from mercury amalgam fillings to newer composite resin fillings.
Yes, let us be clear. You "assumed" that I was thinking of changing my amalgams ( I told you that it would be nice if I could) then I quickly corrected you and told you that because of my weakened immune system and my age, it would be a real risk. Noting that many composite fillings are also toxic, and I had been advised to have them extracted..thus I could have the bone cleaned if necessary. I also told you I wasn’t looking forward to having anything false in my mouth, but maybe I had no other choice. You were very insulting and said I was falling for another all that anti-mercury. The truth be known…..you didn’t want to admit to Yep, I’m doing it. My dentist is a big believer in it and I like my dentist, even though I don’t believe 90 percent of the terror-tactic hype about mercury. I’m doing it because my dentist convinced me (scientifically) that I should regularly have my old fillings replaced to keep my teeth in optimum shape because I have a family history of periodontal disease, which is highly heritable. As my dentist says, the new stuff is simply better than the old amalgam composite ever was, and it looks better (because it’s white and not silver, and it can be matched to your tooth color). Since I have a mouth full of silver, I liked the idea, and since I have good dental insurance, it seemed reasonable to me. That’s a far cry from doing what you claim Hulda recommended, which was to have your amalgam-filled teeth pulled and replaced with dentures! Talk about disfiguring surgery for *no good reason!*
For no good resaon! I have PERIPHERAL NEUROPATHY, (very painful, very serious, affecting the central nervous system) it may be caused by my teeth. What more reason do I need? If you knew anything about the subject, you would know that it is some what a mysterious disease, and much reasearch needs to be done. It is very hard to determin what the cause is, different people, different chemisty. We do know it is caused by heavy metals, chemicals and CHEMO. Would you call mercury heavy metal, i.e. chemicals? I guess I could just fold my hands and say…well I just choose to die. Ooops, now I will be acussed of "feeling sorry for myself", by polite, compassioniate people….you know…like yourself. I’m doing the replacement to KEEP my teeth. In any case, this has nothing to do with Hulda. Hulda is late getting on the amalgam bandwagon, and there are many dentists (in the ADA) who are well ahead of her.
Bull!!! Most won’t even discuss it. You are very fortunate to have stumbled across one who is not only aware of it, but will actually do the work. MANY PEOPLE HAVE TO GO TO ANOTHER COUNTRY TO GET IT DONE! You need to do a search on the net and find out how hard most dentist are fighting it. I’m not doing it out of hysterical fear of mercury poisoning. As my dentist says, the real risk in mercury amalgam is to the dentists who drill the stuff all day and breathe in the dust.
In addition, disturbing the amalgam fillings in your teeth with a drill probably puts more mercury into your system than a solid, stable filling ever does.
BINGO! That is why Hulda recommended I get mine pulled. I have had a hard time with this. I don’t want to get them pulled, but the pain just keeps getting worse. So I am checking it out. If I do get them pulled and my system cleaned out….and the pain leaves…I will wonder why I waited so long. this isn’t a shows how very polite and compassionate you are. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -As for whether Hulda supports the mercury-amalgam-toxicity scare hypothesis or not, let’s say that even a stopped clock (or a wacko quack) is right once in a while. One of Hulda’s trademarks, and it’s a standard technique of all quacks, is to mix a little reasonable stuff in with the woo-woo. So Hulda suggests we improve our diets and eat more raw fruits and vegetables. Big deal. What an original contribution to medical science that is! So she has jumped on the hype-bandwagon against mercury amalgam (which most good dentists aren’t even using anymore). Big deal. She still claims that all human disease is caused by a rare liver parasite, and that is bull. She still claims you can cure cancer with a colonic tube, a zapper, and a parasite cleanse. And that remains bull. Hey, I think I recall that Ted Kazynscki thought that big corporations were screwing up the earth’s environment. Maybe so, but that doesn’t make him right when he says "so let’s kill all the corporate executives." As for "falling for another scam," let’s review recent history: 1) parasitosis 2) chemical toxicity from offgassing 3) mercury amalgam poisoning
How many times do I need to tell you that I have layered problems? chemical toxicity from offgassing? Where do that come from? Chemicals, yes, the cause…….we aren’t sure yet…maybe it is the mercury? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -As for parasites, you couldn’t name the bug, couldn’t prove you had the diagnosis, and conveniently abandoned the whole theory when you discovered chemical toxicity. Then you couldn’t name the chemical you claimed was poisoning you despite the claim of a definitive hair analysis (which is b.s.). Now you’re on to mercury. Each time Hulda says jump, you say "how high?" Not only will you go broke from doing these things, but you’ll do all kinds of wonderful things with anti-parasite herbs, detox regimens, and dental surgery. In spite of your volatile personality, Jan, I really find you somehow charming (in a batty kind of way), and I hate to say it, but you’re a
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There are some people who rank as trolls, they know everything and no amount of discussion is going to change a close mind. (presuming) AF
But happily Agent has a great kill file filter, only problem with it is sometimes it looks like an author is arguing with them selves. Course with some of the trolls they might as well. Don
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[deleted] OK, I apologize for insulting serious and well trained NDs in a moment of snarly temper.
Hey, no problem Aaron, it is quite refreshing and rare around here for someone to admit error. Maybe you’re starting a trend. [deleted] In any case, people like Clark and Wallch, by plastering ND after their name, do a tremendous disservice to your profession as it struggles to get free of the quack traditions which are tied around its professional ankles.
Just for the record, I have never been a naturopathic doctor, though I do consult with them regularly regarding practice management and marketing matters. Anyway, theoretically you are right about the quack history, but NDs are pretty free spirited and a fairly high proportion will always practice some woowoo stuff. Kinda comes with the territory. And lots of patients love it (though I am quite conservative). However, there’s no arguing that the entrance requirements for even the best ND programs are substantially less stringent than for even an average US medical school.
Hmmm. Now you’ve tickled my curiosity. Last time I checked about three years ago I recall that *on paper* the entrance requirements were very similar, mainly, three years undergraduate studies including basic premedical sciences (ND students please correct this if needed). Maybe parenthood is eating my brain, but I thought I read that even many of the top flight MD schools do not *on paper* require a completed undergraduate degree. I was quite suprised, but perhaps I’m wrong. What does Columbia require? ND programs do not require standardized test taking, but with time that may change–especially if younger people with little work experience begin to dominate the programs. I would think any legitimate ND with a serious training would deeply *resent* her claim to have "earned" an ND if she didn’t earn one.
With all the mail order joints recklessly advertising and snookering the public and politicians, Hulda’s sins amount to a homeopathic quantity of a much larger problem. Ultimately this results in state licensing bills failing due to intense lobbying by large numbers of mail order degree holders. The politicians can only see obscure professional bickering instead of an opportunity for consumer protection. Once again, alternative medicine is its own worse enemy. SO what DO you NDs think of Clark’s actual "work," what there is of it anyway? AF
—Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.—
Response:
choice of language. I also believe that if one wanted an evaluation of being a Christian, you would be the last person they would ask.
Rarely do I make personal attacks, except in response. And, I am perfectly capable of evaluating Christians or anyone else. I reserve special treatment for particularly judgmental ones, though. I understand that you really believe that you have a special connection with a special god. It bores me. So don’t bother trying to frame any posts to me in that reference. You’ll note that I don’t tell you that you’re inherently incapable of any particular thing because of your religious belief. Why don’t you try showing others that same, particular, respect? And, as so often, I note that you have nothing about the actual topic to add. Just another personal attack. Next time, try for some on topic content. hd
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – resorts of people not smart enough to go to real medical schools. Well, Aaron, I guess I’ll bite on your throwaway statement. First, I am certain that Wallach earned his ND from National (Portland) in the late 70s or early 80s. He has never been held in high regard by 99% of the profession because of both the Dead Doctors nonsense and his whacko far right politics. OK, I apologize for insulting serious and well trained NDs in a moment of snarly temper. I know several who are first-rate clinicians and smart enough to do anything they care to. I overstated my case. I was pretty sure Wallach went to Bastyr, but I stand corrected. In any case, people like Clark and Wallch, by plastering ND after their name, do a tremendous disservice to your profession as it struggles to get free of the quack traditions which are tied around its professional ankles.
Nice to see you apologize, stand corrected and admit to a momment of snarly temper, state that your remark was a bit of a throwaway and uncalled for. However only momments earlier (in a private e-mail) you acussed me of being unbalanced, and wanted to drop the matter, (because you had tripped yourself up) and even threadened to call AOL if I e-mailed you again. It is OK for you to e-mail me, I guess you have two different set of rules? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – failed to get into MD medical school is American osteopathic medicine. But I wouldn’t say their training or smarts is deficient at all. Fair enough too. In fact a study published a few years ago in the chiropractic journal found that, on average, chiropracters had the lowest levels of academic achievement entering graduate training, with osteopaths above them, podiatrists a notch above that, dentists, then Mds. NDs weren’t included in the study. But if you separate out the HUGE number of b.s. mail order ND programs and just take an average of the students entering the accredited programs, I’m sure they’re better than most chiropracic students, for example. However, there’s no arguing that the entrance requirements for even the best ND programs are substantially less stringent than for even an average US medical school. They wouldn’t set the requirements so low if they didn’t have to. That doesn’t mean some of the candidates in ND programs aren’t significantly smarter than the average med school student, just as the stringent requirements for med school don’t totally exclude the odd idiot. Regarding Hulda Clark, I too am pretty certain that she holds a mail order degree or one from Sri Lanka or something–I very likely would have heard otherwise from folks in Seattle or Portland. And I don’t care much either–the value of the discussion thread was transformed to be about Jan’s veracity. Oh well. Jan’s veracity has long been established in my opinion
We know, we also know why. . I just want to know where Hulda got her ND.
Oh, modulating again? which is it. You don’t care, or you still want to know? Make up thou mind!! I would think any legitimate ND with a serious training would deeply *resent* her claim to have "earned" an ND if she didn’t earn one. Sri Lanka, indeed. Amazing. How about it Jan, now that Geoduck has outted your gal, can youi confirm that she sent away for her ND after reading an offer on the back of a Sri Lankan matchbook?
the very highest of intelligence, and the right connections, you can find out? After all, you claim to know the reporter who is checking out all the clinics in Mexico. Again, my remark was a bit of a throwaway snarl, as you noted. It was uncalled for. I take it back and declare my respect for NDs who understand the limitations of their profession and who have been seriously trained in medicine. But I declare my absolute lack of respect for Hulda Clark and her acolytes, who tarnish the value of an ND degree by their pretense. SO what DO you NDs think of Clark’s actual "work," what there is of it anyway?
AF You have been told by the people she has helped what they think of her work, plus how grateful they are. You need to open your ears and close your mouth. Jan
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Remember me telling AF that it wouldn’t matter anyway because he already has a closed mind on the subject?? Well, ‘time will tell’ and it did. I guess my prediction was correct.
Happy dog responded: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -How does deferring to more important issues instead of wasting time arguing a nit point with a condescending and religious fundamentalist constitute closed mindedness? Your statement was a dismissal and an attempt to evade answering the question. It wasn’t a prediction. At age "35" (AF’s age) my thoughts, feeling and ideas were much different than at my current age of 60. I guess that is why they say that "older is wiser" Glad to see that you were possibly a thoughtful skeptic, well educated and an atheist a few decades ago. Does this mean we’re all destined to become fundamentalist bigots at some point? There are basically 2 or 3 ND programs in the US worth a damn, and I doubt it’s from either of those. If Joel Wallach, wacko vetrinarian, could get an ND at Bastyr University (one of the "good ones"), then anyone could. ND programs, like chiropractic colleges, are the last resorts of people not smart enough to go to real medical schools. Now, how did I know that AF’s opinion of an ND degree would be followed by this kind of a statement? Let’s give him a break and give him time to grow up. You knew it because you know the kind of person that the argument is in response to. The statement, otherwise, would be prejudicial. I agree. BTW. I note that there is not a single statement of relevant fact in your post Jan. As usual, it consists entirely of personal attacks against a perceived heretic. Very Christian of you. arf
choice of language. I also believe that if one wanted an evaluation of being a Christian, you would be the last person they would ask. Jan
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There are basically 2 or 3 ND programs in the US worth a damn, and I doubt it’s from either of those. If Joel Wallach, wacko vetrinarian, could get an ND at Bastyr University (one of the "good ones"), then anyone could. ND programs, like chiropractic colleges, are the last resorts of people not smart enough to go to real medical schools.
I wonder how people who have already earned a PhD, aren’t smart enough to go to medical school? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now, how did I know that AF’s opinion of an ND degree would be followed by this kind of a statement? Let’s give him a break and give him time to grow up. What? My opinion is modulated. I think there are some accredited quality ND programs, but that in general NDs are people who weren’t smart enough to go to medical school. Look at the entrance requirements for the best ND program (Bastyr Univ. in Seattle, where I know two faculty members well) and you’ll see what I mean. Jan, for someone 60 years old you need to grow up. You fight like an emotionally unstable 4th grader on Ritalin.
easy dispensed by the "real doctors" and is very popilar with shrinks. Most be good stuff. As to your remark about my being a liar. I have not told any lies, but then I am not sure you would know the difference. The readers might be interested to know that when the going gets tough, and you are trapped and start being backed into a corner, you are ready to call the whole matter off. (This is in reference to private e-mail between AF and I, where he acussed me of falling for another scam. Then admitted that he was already using the alternative method. BTW, it was a method that Hulda Clark recommends!) Maybe you would like to post it here, if you aren’t afraid of embarrassing yourself? Jan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
AF again: As for Hulda’s ND, you may be right. The refusal by Clark or her acolytes to tell us where she got the coveted credential (mind you, she is still not licensed to practice medicine) may be a trick. But I doubt it. These people are not that smart, even in the dumb animal way that some con artists are sometimes smart. I suspect she actually has a mail-order ND and is afraid of being found out. But when it comes down to it, I don’t care Hmmmmm…..Two months ago, it was of utmost importance. Now he really doesn’t really care. HD nearly busted a gut to trying to find out.
People claim knowledge. I ask. It could be just as persuasively argued that folks like Jan who insist on playing obfuscation games are the ones expending the real wasted effort. After all, it would be simple to just answer the question. And, I still wish to know. Remember me telling AF that it wouldn’t matter anyway because he already has a closed mind on the subject?? Well, ‘time will tell’ and it did. I guess my prediction was correct.
How does deferring to more important issues instead of wasting time arguing a nit point with a condescending and religious fundamentalist constitute closed mindedness? Your statement was a dismissal and an attempt to evade answering the question. It wasn’t a prediction. At age "35" (AF’s age) my thoughts, feeling and ideas were much different than at my current age of 60. I guess that is why they say that "older is wiser"
Glad to see that you were possibly a thoughtful skeptic, well educated and an atheist a few decades ago. Does this mean we’re all destined to become fundamentalist bigots at some point? There are basically 2 or 3 ND programs in the US worth a damn, and I doubt it’s from either of those. If Joel Wallach, wacko vetrinarian, could get an ND at Bastyr University (one of the "good ones"), then anyone could. ND programs, like chiropractic colleges, are the last resorts of people not smart enough to go to real medical schools. Now, how did I know that AF’s opinion of an ND degree would be followed by this kind of a statement? Let’s give him a break and give him time to grow up.
You knew it because you know the kind of person that the argument is in response to. The statement, otherwise, would be prejudicial. I agree. BTW. I note that there is not a single statement of relevant fact in your post Jan. As usual, it consists entirely of personal attacks against a perceived heretic. Very Christian of you. arf
Response:
In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.9905221605370.5267- [deleted] There are basically 2 or 3 ND programs in the US worth a damn, and I doubt it’s from either of those. If Joel Wallach, wacko vetrinarian, could get an ND at Bastyr University (one of the "good ones"), then anyone could. ND programs, like chiropractic colleges, are the last resorts of people not smart enough to go to real medical schools.
Well, Aaron, I guess I’ll bite on your throwaway statement. First, I am certain that Wallach earned his ND from National (Portland) in the late 70s or early 80s. He has never been held in high regard by 99% of the profession because of both the Dead Doctors nonsense and his whacko far right politics. To paint an entire professional education system with the brush of one or two bozo graduates is more humorous than valid. Surely the respect for life shown by Jack Kevorkian, MD is not indicative of the medical profession, its ethics, and its institutions. As I recall, anthropology had some real racist all stars last century and early this century as well. Regarding the bit about smarts and entry into non-medical schools–I will respond to the ND part and say that your generalization doesn’t square with my appreciable experience. Since the mid-80s I have known a few hundred legit ND grads. Attending MD medical school just wasn’t in the career plans for about 95% of the people. Many ND students have already put in several years in other health and counseling fields, nursing, dentistry, chiros, social work etc, and choose the ND route as true believers and not as MD wannabes. Because of the dearth of legit programs and the qualifications of applicants, the selection process is quite competitive. Funny, but the one field I do know that does contain many folks who failed to get into MD medical school is American osteopathic medicine. But I wouldn’t say their training or smarts is deficient at all. Regarding Hulda Clark, I too am pretty certain that she holds a mail order degree or one from Sri Lanka or something–I very likely would have heard otherwise from folks in Seattle or Portland. And I don’t care much either–the value of the discussion thread was transformed to be about Jan’s veracity. Oh well. —Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.—
Response:
AF again: As for Hulda’s ND, you may be right. The refusal by Clark or her acolytes to tell us where she got the coveted credential (mind you, she is still not licensed to practice medicine) may be a trick. But I doubt it. These people are not that smart, even in the dumb animal way that some con artists are sometimes smart. I suspect she actually has a mail-order ND and is afraid of being found out. But when it comes down to it, I don’t care
Hmmmmm…..Two months ago, it was of utmost importance. Now he really doesn’t really care. HD nearly busted a gut to trying to find out. Remember me telling AF that it wouldn’t matter anyway because he already has a closed mind on the subject?? Well, ‘time will tell’ and it did. I guess my prediction was correct. At age "35" (AF’s age) my thoughts, feeling and ideas were much different than at my current age of 60. I guess that is why they say that "older is wiser" There are basically 2 or 3 ND programs in the US worth a damn, and I doubt it’s from either of those. If Joel Wallach, wacko vetrinarian, could get an ND at Bastyr University (one of the "good ones"), then anyone could. ND programs, like chiropractic colleges, are the last resorts of people not smart enough to go to real medical schools.
Now, how did I know that AF’s opinion of an ND degree would be followed by this kind of a statement? Let’s give him a break and give him time to grow up. Jan
Response:
Get it? If you believe Hulda Clark and her obviously cultified zealot acolytes, you’re crazy too. She is the Ur-Quack, sent down from Quack Heaven to test the gullibility level of the most intellectually limited segments of the population. Quack quack.
We haven’t heard of, or have time to check out quack heaven. much too busy checking out Atheist Hell. We know it does exist though, the above message ‘PROVES" it Jan Keep on with the chemo, surgery and radiation!!
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Challenge to Arthur Doerkson, B.SC., M.Div. and seller of "the auto-zapper:" In regard to my letter below, I am not surprised to report that Mr. Doerkson, although polite, is typical of Hulda Clark’s devotees. He refused to supply any proof of his claims of a miraculous cancer cure and instead inundated me with pages of conspiracy theories regarding the "cancer industry," the evils of chemotherapy, and Clark’s persecution at the hands of the "mainstream" medical establishment. He made all the usual conspiracy-theory excuses for Clark’s failure to publish any research, and failed to answer questions about her credentials (I *still* don’t know where she got a "N.D." degree and if it is legitimate or not) and her background (I still don’t know if she ever published anything in her earlier 30 year career as a "research scientist working on government grants." Not according to any bibliographic database I’ve searched, anyway.) When pressed, he insisted that "medical records are not reliable," and that "medical tests are usually inaccurate." All of this is classic huckster-speak for "I don’t have the proof, it never existed, and I’m telling a tale about my miracle cure."
Are you able to post the reply? Along with the claims of others seen here it would show an unbroken trend of obfuscation. The bit about the mystery ND is truly puzzling. I half expect it to be shown to be legitimate in a year or two. Followed by megabytes of crowing at the unjustified pathological disbelief of skeptics. Please post Arty’s reply, si possible. erf
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AF again: I see Jan is back posting useless anecdotal testimonials concerning the Ur-Quack Hulda Clark. I must return to the fray.
@ Well, Mr. Fox returns with his usual negative jargon. What may appear to him as useless may be beneficial to others. The last I heard this is a free country, the readers can make their own decisions. In response to the testimonial from "Arthur Doerkson, Electronic Engineer" I sent Mr. Doerkson the following letter. When he replies – er, IF he replies — I will post a sumamry of his response to the newsgroup. Who wants to make a side bet that he a) has no proof and b) will find some way to avoid saying so directly?
@ Who wants to take a vote that Mr. Fox has a control problem, a closed mind and a hate for anything that differs from his opinion? Anyone who is interested in getting to the bottom of the Clark business should write to Mr. Doerkson, who invites correspondence from the public on his website, *urging* him to respond to my challnge. By the way, we should all be aware that Mr. Doerkson’s company SELLS a version of the Hulda Clark "zapper."
@Sounds just like Yarrow, I thought Mr. Fox was above that Mr Doerkson knows the zapper helped with his recovery, so what’s the big deal? Ever heard of wanting to help others? BTW, Mr. Fox has stated that Hulda is money hungry. She tells how you can build the zapper yourself. Wonder why she didn’t have it patented? . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jan Dear Mr. Doerkson An internet acquaintance of mine (Jan Drew, to whom this message is copied) ran across your website and forwarded the URL to me. She is a big believer in Hulda Clark’s theories of pathogenesis and carcinogenesis. Like you, she has met Hulda Clark and claims to know her well. She took your website to be a strong piece of evidence in support of these theories. I myself am a strong skeptic who believes Clark is a dangerous quack taking advantage of sick and deluded people. Because I have posted expressing this opinion many times to a USENET newsgroup (misc.health.alternative) to which Ms. Drew also contributes, she believes that your testimonial on your website refutes my arguments, which concern a) the scientifically preposterous and flawed character of Hulda Clark’s explanations of all pathogenesis and carcinogenesis as consequences of parasitosis; and b) Clark’s inflated and dubious credentials (to wit, a PhD in physiology from Minnesota in the 1950s, an "N.D." degree the source of which I have never heard her reveal [there are many non-accredited sources of such credentials], no license to practice medicine in the US as far as I have been able to tell, not a single publication in the peer-reviewed biomedical literature, including in any peer-reviewed journal of alternative or complementary medicine, a dubious claim to have been a "research scientist" working with "government grants" in earlier decades. What DID she do from 1960 to 1979? I presume she was employed (as she claims) in labs, for example at the U of Minnesota, but as a low-level assistant or lab tech, since an extensive literature review and database search turns up no articles which she authored as a PI or as a co-author in that period in any scientific field. Of course, your website implies otherwise. We’ll leave aside the more basic questions, like why Clark has never published any of her research, which you claim is careful science done to a professional standard, in any peer-reviewed medical journals. In order to satisfy me that I am wrong about Clark, I wonder if you could indulge the following queries, which you are immediately qualified to answer: 1) You claim to be an "electronic engineer." Since I could not find the information on your website, could you clarify for us what your highest degree in engineering science is, and where you have worked and/or published as a professional engineer prior to forming your own company?
@ Oh yes, we must know of your highest degree, and if you have published anything? Otherwise, you are less than human. We certainly wouldn’t want to believe anything that a common person has to say. You know "surivival of the fittest." 2) You claim to have been diagnosed with both malignant melanoma (1987) and a non-specific tumorous mass in your breast (1994), although in the former case you claim there is a pathology report and in the latter case you only mention a self-diagnosis (as you surely know, migrating masses in the breast area are fairly common and typically not cancerous, especially in men, making your self-diangosis dubious at best.) You then claim you were "cured" of both cancers (assuming you have any proof that the latter mass was cancer) by Clark’s parasite cleanse and zappers and other assorted minor changes in your environment, the fillings in your teeth etc. You don’t explicitly say, though you imply, that you never received any standard-of-care treatment (chemo, surgery, or radiation) for either cancer.
side effects. Trade one disease for another. SO, the query is this: DO you have medical records, including lab pathology reports showing the presence of a malignancy and the clearance of said malignancy without any standard treatment, as you claim? If you have such records, think of the boon to your business if you would post them on the website.
@ Mr. Fox doesn’t believe there are any people in this world who would just like to share a wonderful experience of being cured. It is all about the all mighty dollar, and winning an agrument. If you would prefer not to do so, but are willing to put your evidence on the table for a skeptic, I will pay for the costs of retrieving and duplicating the records, mailing them to an impartial MD (I suggest we ask Dr. Steven Harris, a noted California gerontologist and AIDS expert, who has a standing offer to evaluate records pertaining to such claims as you make).
@ Dr. Harris is also an atheist. A good buddy of Mr. Fox.
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Filed under: Lobbying
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