Activism Change

LR 'Discovery' — any (strong) evidence of improved quality?

Question:

Thank you for clearing that up.  Am I correct in assuming the Pinzgauer is German (could also be Belgian, Austrian, or Swiss with that name)?

   Austrian    Cheers           David

Response:

From what I can remember of the LR order, it was split into three staff requirements Truck Utility Light (TUL), Truck Utility Medium (TUM) and Battlefield Ambulance. I think TUL was going to go to LR, there being no suitable competitor. If I can remember correctly it was Steyr-Puesch (sp?) who competed for TUM and the Ambulance contract with their Pinzgauer 4X4 and 6X6’s.

Thank you for clearing that up.  Am I correct in assuming the Pinzgauer is German (could also be Belgian, Austrian, or Swiss with that name)? C. Marin Faure   author, Flying A Floatplane

Response:

[snip] Land Rover of Canada had done the right thing.  AFAIK, there are only a couple of Land Rover dealers in all of Canada,

Near the city of Vancouver alone, there are four or five Land Rover dealers.   In eastern Canada, where I _think_ Grant lives, the population is much denser than out here in western Canada and therefore, probably many more LR dealers.  We have of population of over 25 million people so really, you should expect more than two LR dealers, especially since our standard of living is pretty good compared to the US! [snip] …lars

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From what I can remember of the LR order, it was split into three staff requirements Truck Utility Light (TUL), Truck Utility Medium (TUM) and Battlefield Ambulance. I think TUL was going to go to LR, there being no suitable competitor. If I can remember correctly it was Steyr-Puesch (sp?) who competed for TUM and the Ambulance contract with their Pinzgauer 4X4 and 6X6’s. They were certainly looking very good for the ambulance contract until a fair amount of lobbying took place (complicated by a chance that other European armies were also considering the two vehicles, and it wouldn’t have looked good for the British Army to buy foreign vehicles as well as offering the chance to have some common equipment within NATO). The other consideration for both TUM and ambulance was that the Pinzgauer was 1.5-2 times the price of the equivalent LRs and would have meant either a much more costly procurement or reduced number of vehicles available to the army. The big order has obviously allowed the army to dispose of all the SIIIs and re-equip down to the Territorials (presumably) with Defenders and Wolfs. Matthew

        I remember following the press coverage  at the time. I got the impression that the Army itself wanted the Steyr-Puch vehicles, but that there was an amount of poloticking going on, and that the price difference was significant. It seemed to be principally the battlefield ambulance vehicles that were being reported.         Have you ever noticed the number of companies that linked motorcycles and firearms? like BSA and Royal Enfield?  well, Steyr-Puch did guns and mopeds too. They also build the G-Wagen for Mercedes, and built the 4×4 version of the panda for FIAT. The Pinzgauer is a very, very, impressive series of vehicles. It is certainly the next step up beyond Land-Rovers in many respects, but this includes price…   Cheers          David

Response:

[snip] Land Rover of Canada had done the right thing.  AFAIK, there are only a couple of Land Rover dealers in all of Canada, Near the city of Vancouver alone, there are four or five Land Rover dealers.   In eastern Canada, where I _think_ Grant lives, the population is much denser than out here in western Canada and therefore, probably many more LR dealers.  We have of population of over 25 million people so really, you should expect more than two LR dealers, especially since our standard of living is pretty good compared to the US!

I would also expect more than a few LR dealers in Canada, but I had heard not long ago that there were only a few.  Thanks for clearing that up. — 1995 Land Rover Discovery Rovers North Roof Rack 4 Hella Rallye 4000’s 1 Hella Work Light To avoid spam mail, my return address has been modified.

Response:

    Granted there’s     certainly an incentive for a nation’s military to purchase vehicles     manufactured in its own country.  But competition and budget realities     have greatly reduced the tendency to automatically buy equipment made at     home.  Look at British Airways’ decision to equip their Boeing 777s with     GE engines instead of the traditional (for BA) Rolls Royce engines.  While     I’m sure there were those in the British Army who wanted to buy Land     Rovers no matter what they were like, I suspect the competition was pretty     fierce and things like reliability and quality were looked at pretty hard.     While I certainly see nothing wrong with "keeping the money in the family"     the people of any nation deserve at least that from their government, I     wonder…the British Army is funded and supported by the British Government     and the peoples taxes, is British Airways subsidized by the government? If     not then it is clear the pressures on the army were not the same for British     Airways and even if BA is subsidized by the government the obvious fiscal     and political advantage of employing your own is more advantageous for the     army than BA. Under any circumstance the army bought great vehicles.    BA used to be a national carrier, but they were privatized, if not    entirely at least to a very large degree, some years back.  The 777 engine    decision was made by the current management, not back when the airline was    a "branch" of the government.  I have no idea how much pressure was being    put on the British Army to buy Land Rovers; quite a bit I would imagine.    But I do recall reading several times that the other vehicle (could David    Stockton or someone please remind me of the name of the other vehicle?)    was doing extremely well in the comparison tests, and I seem to recall    predictions that it would ultimately win out.  While national pride and    support certainly play a major role as you point out, the "alliances"    between the European nations also put pressure on the member countries to    support each other.  How close the Army actually came to favoring the    non-Land Rover I have no idea, but I’m glad they made the decision they    did.  Besides getting a very good vehicle, the order will certainly boost    the Midlands economy.    C. Marin Faure      author, Flying A Floatplane BA were completely privatised in the mid 80’s and the engine order had quite a bit to do with GE buying BAs engine maintenance business in South Wales. From what I can remember of the LR order, it was split into three staff requirements Truck Utility Light (TUL), Truck Utility Medium (TUM) and Battlefield Ambulance. I think TUL was going to go to LR, there being no suitable competitor. If I can remember correctly it was Steyr-Puesch (sp?) who competed for TUM and the Ambulance contract with their Pinzgauer 4X4 and 6X6’s. They were certainly looking very good for the ambulance contract until a fair amount of lobbying took place (complicated by a chance that other European armies were also considering the two vehicles, and it wouldn’t have looked good for the British Army to buy foreign vehicles as well as offering the chance to have some common equipment within NATO). The other consideration for both TUM and ambulance was that the Pinzgauer was 1.5-2 times the price of the equivalent LRs and would have meant either a much more costly procurement or reduced number of vehicles available to the army. The big order has obviously allowed the army to dispose of all the SIIIs and re-equip down to the Territorials (presumably) with Defenders and Wolfs. Matthew — — Matthew Wild World Data Centre C1 – Solar-Terrestrial Physics Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, Chilton, Didcot, Oxon, OX11 0QX

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Granted there’s certainly an incentive for a nation’s military to purchase vehicles manufactured in its own country.  But competition and budget realities have greatly reduced the tendency to automatically buy equipment made at home.  Look at British Airways’ decision to equip their Boeing 777s with GE engines instead of the traditional (for BA) Rolls Royce engines.  While I’m sure there were those in the British Army who wanted to buy Land Rovers no matter what they were like, I suspect the competition was pretty fierce and things like reliability and quality were looked at pretty hard. While I certainly see nothing wrong with "keeping the money in the family" the people of any nation deserve at least that from their government, I wonder…the British Army is funded and supported by the British Government and the peoples taxes, is British Airways subsidized by the government? If not then it is clear the pressures on the army were not the same for British Airways and even if BA is subsidized by the government the obvious fiscal and political advantage of employing your own is more advantageous for the army than BA. Under any circumstance the army bought great vehicles.

BA used to be a national carrier, but they were privatized, if not entirely at least to a very large degree, some years back.  The 777 engine decision was made by the current management, not back when the airline was a "branch" of the government.  I have no idea how much pressure was being put on the British Army to buy Land Rovers; quite a bit I would imagine. But I do recall reading several times that the other vehicle (could David Stockton or someone please remind me of the name of the other vehicle?) was doing extremely well in the comparison tests, and I seem to recall predictions that it would ultimately win out.  While national pride and support certainly play a major role as you point out, the "alliances" between the European nations also put pressure on the member countries to support each other.  How close the Army actually came to favoring the non-Land Rover I have no idea, but I’m glad they made the decision they did.  Besides getting a very good vehicle, the order will certainly boost the Midlands economy. C. Marin Faure   author, Flying A Floatplane

Response:

While not related directly to the Discovery quality question, it should be noted that the British Army conducted extensive comparison tests to find a replacement for their trusty Series III Land Rovers that have been serving the military since the early 1970s.  It came down to two vehicles, the Defender and a 4wd from another European country (unfortunately I can’t remember the make or nationality).  For awhile it seemed that the "imported" vehicle was going to win out.  But the Army finally decided that the Defender was the best machine for the task.  The result is an order for 7,000 turbo-diesel XD (Wolf) Defenders.  Granted there’s certainly an incentive for a nation’s military to purchase vehicles manufactured in its own country.  But competition and budget realities have greatly reduced the tendency to automatically buy equipment made at home.  Look at British Airways’ decision to equip their Boeing 777s with GE engines instead of the traditional (for BA) Rolls Royce engines.  While I’m sure there were those in the British Army who wanted to buy Land Rovers no matter what they were like, I suspect the competition was pretty fierce and things like reliability and quality were looked at pretty hard. As an aside, the re-equipping of the British Army means that over 4,000 Series III Model 109s and Lightweights are going to be sold surplus to the British public along with tons of spare parts.  The "youngest" Series III in the Army is 12 years old. C. Marin Faure   author, Flying A Floatplane

Response:

I am far from objective about LR.  If I won one in a contest, I would sell it at first light.   I believe you and what worries me is that people like you are not just one or two (or so it appears). If the dealers let too many people go so unhappy then they’re doing something wrong. Because once they build a critical mass then whole thing gets out of control. Even if we assume that the standard contingent or product bashers is present (every product has them), still I’m worried not to follow in ther line of dissatisfied customers (cause I’m also very short of patience sometimes).

Though I don’t want to say that Grant didn’t have legitimate problems with his Discovery (I sincerely believe he did) and I also don’t want to discount the problems he had with his dealer and Land Rover (I also believe he did), do note that he was dealing with a Canadian dealer and Land Rover of Canada.  Ultimately, he did deal with Land Rover in Solihull, but that should never have been necessary if the dealer and Land Rover of Canada had done the right thing.  AFAIK, there are only a couple of Land Rover dealers in all of Canada, so there is absolutely no competition with other dealers to encourage a dealer to provide excellent service.  In the US it’s a bit of a different story… Does someone know whether LR is making money in the USA?

If they weren’t, they would have pulled out of the market by now (again). How is the dealer network? I mean, I know it’s small but is it manageable — in terms of parts coming through quickly (within 24-48 hrs.), getting some reasonable prices for repairs?

Generally speaking, the dealer network is pretty good.  My experience has been very good except for one problem that took them several tries to fix correctly (though I was always provided with a loaner and didn’t get any hassles about anything).  The overall attitude that I have experienced is to fix problems and be nice to the customer. Personally, I’d rather deal with this sort of attitude and have a number of small problems than to have 1 problem and a dealer who is unable/unwilling to fix it (and obnoxious at the same time).  The later situation happened with my previous vehicle – a Mitsubishi Montero. Are there independent mechanics who can repair these vehicles? Do they have an equall access to parts and equipment?

Yes, most independent mechanics can work on them.  The engine really isn’t anything special – it’s a derivative of an old Buick V8 (though there is little left from the original Buick design at this point, but it’s a pretty basic engine).  Parts are readily available, but on the expensive side and most of the equipment needed is no different than for any other vehicle (there are some special tools needed for some jobs, but that’s the case with any vehicle).  My suggestion would be to purchase a factory service manual and let the mechanic you choose use it when needed. What about the 24 hrs. Road Assistance that is advertised? Is that a new thing for LR or has always been there? Is it working?

It’s been there at least since ‘95, but I’m not sure when they started it.  I haven’t needed it, as is the case for most owners.  Most of the problems people experience with these vehicles don’t leave the vehicle disabled, they tend to be things like window switches not working, leaking sunroofs, and the like.  Annoying problems, but usually won’t leave you stranded somewhere (obviously there are exceptions, such as Grant’s case). They’ve raised the warranty to 4/50 — is that a sign of awareness that the public is suspicious to their quality?

Undoubtedly, but it also shows a commitment on their part to solve the problem.  The latest JD Powers surveys seem to show a very good improvement in initial quality and overall satisfaction with the vehicles, which is also a good sign.  Land Rover also has started something they call Operation Pride which is their attempt to fix all problems with the existing vehicles while under warranty.  It’s clear that they are well aware of past problems and doing what they can to solve them. However, people in the know on this list suggest that they have improved.   That’s what I’m interested in some objective criterion by which to judge that indeed there is an appreciation of the problems and that they have been addressed.

I think they’re doing a good job solving the problems at this point. Any company that has its lawyers write people and warn them against criticizing the company and its products will never get my business again. That’s peculiar…

Agreed… Hope this helps. — 1995 Land Rover Discovery Rovers North Roof Rack 4 Hella Rallye 4000’s 1 Hella Work Light To avoid spam mail, my return address has been modified.

Response:

Does someone know whether LR is making money in the USA?

Land Rover has just set yet another record for Discovery sales in, I believe, August of this year.  A Land Rover dealership in the US is a license to print money.  Judging by the huge number of Discoveries I see every day on the road in the Seattle area, I’d say the dealers are doing great, at least out here. How is the dealer network? I mean, I know it’s small but is it manageable — in terms of parts coming through quickly (within 24-48 hrs.), getting some reasonable prices for repairs?

Probably still terrible overall.  There are some good ones, but I suspect they’re few and far between.  The mechanics can’t troubleshoot to save their lives.  Once they find a problem, or you define if for them, they seem to be able to perform competent repairs.  Dealer service and parts prices are absolutely astronomical.  The local dealer just replaced a co-worker’s front rotors and pads for $800.  I had the front calipers completely rebuilt and installed new pads all around on my 1991 Range Rover when a seal started seeping at 82K miles.  I pulled the calipers off myself and sent them to the same independent brake company that does the brakes for the local Land Rover dealer (and BMW and Mercedes dealers). Total cost to me was $124 plus a few hours of my time. Are there independent mechanics who can repair these vehicles? Do they have an equall access to parts and equipment?

Not many, but probably more as the numbers of Discoveries increases.  They will either have to buy parts from the dealer (massive markups) or they/you can buy parts from the independent parts dealers like Rovers North and Atlantic British. What about the 24 hrs. Road Assistance that is advertised? Is that a new thing for LR or has always been there? Is it working? They’ve raised the warranty to 4/50 — is that a sign of awareness that the public is suspicious to their quality?

Never needed it with my 1991 Range Rover so I don’t know.  Don’t personally  know any Discovery owner who’s needed it either. However, people in the know on this list suggest that they have improved.

Discovery quality has improved tremendously, despite what you may see from those owners who’ve had bad experiences in the past.  It actually has little to do with BMW, as BMW has taken a somewhat hands-off approach at the Land Rover factory.  The quality problems were due to a huge increase in demand that was more than the factory bargained for or was equipped to deal with plus some very serious quality problems with some of their suppliers, like the manual transmission supplier.  Land Rover actually does not make anything; the vehicles all are assembled from parts that come from suppliers all through the Birmingham area.  Land Rover doesn’t even make their own frames anymore.  So quality problems at a supplier can affect your product line severely.  Because supplier problems are often much harder to get corrected than your own problems (as a Boeing employee, I know this to be an unfortunate fact), it took awhile to get the suppliers back up to snuff.  But the few Discovery owners I have met personally who have new (1996-1997) vehicles seem to be extremely pleased with them and delighted that they have been so trouble-free. That’s what I’m interested in some objective criterion by which to judge that indeed there is an appreciation of the problems and that they have been addressed.

I would be far more concerned with the attitude and expertise of the dealer than the vehicle itself.  The Discovery is a great design and most owners worldwide have had excellent experiences with them.  There’s no reason why the problems Grant Wilkinson and Dave Symington were experiencing could not have been fixed.  A Discovery is just a machine made up of parts; figure out which part is bad and you can fix or replace it.  The failure of their repective dealers to find the problems or get them fixed, let alone the we’ve-done-what-we-can-you-have-to-live-with-it attitude they apparently adapted is unexcusable.  So be wary of your dealer, especially in the US or Canada.  I abandonned mine the second the warranty on my Range Rover was up (the few warranty items I had to have fixed all ended up being diagnosed by me with a shop manual- the dealer mechanics couldn’t do it) and I’ve never been back to the dealer since. If you’re not going to do the work yourself, make sure you have a good dealer.  If you do, your Land Rover experience should be very good indeed, especially now. C. Marin Faure   author, Flying A Floatplane

Response:

I am far from objective about LR.  If I won one in a contest, I would sell it at first light.  

I believe you and what worries me is that people like you are not just one or two (or so it appears). If the dealers let too many people go so unhappy then they’re doing something wrong. Because once they build a critical mass then whole thing gets out of control. Even if we assume that the standard contingent or product bashers is present (every product has them), still I’m worried not to follow in ther line of dissatisfied customers (cause I’m also very short of patience sometimes). Does someone know whether LR is making money in the USA?  How is the dealer network? I mean, I know it’s small but is it manageable — in terms of parts coming through quickly (within 24-48 hrs.), getting some reasonable prices for repairs? Are there independent mechanics who can repair these vehicles? Do they have an equall access to parts and equipment? I like the car cause it’s got an exotic accent, but at the same time I hate to be stuck on an exotic problem… What about the 24 hrs. Road Assistance that is advertised? Is that a new thing for LR or has always been there? Is it working? They’ve raised the warranty to 4/50 — is that a sign of awareness that the public is suspicious to their quality? However, people in the know on this list suggest that they have improved.  

That’s what I’m interested in some objective criterion by which to judge that indeed there is an appreciation of the problems and that they have been addressed. Any company that has its lawyers write people and warn them against criticizing the company and its products will never get my business again.

That’s peculiar… I wish you good luck if you end up with a LR product.  I sincerely hope you don’t need it (the luck, that is).

Thanks. Yup, that’s one of those situations when you’re drawn to something, realizing fully the risk and the potential for disappointment… Regs,         Dimitar P.S. Ohh, someone wrote earlier something about the ‘personal touch’ in relation to the LR discussion… On my end there is only one type of touch that I want — ‘the professional’ touch… The customer does not need compassion at the face of an unsolvable problem and poor quality, s/he needs the problem fixed, a and ‘piece of mind’ — that’s the nicest touch of them all… If BMW can add that to LR then I suspect many more will be touching their checkbooks… — Pontix Consulting, Inc.               http://www.pontix.com/ Personal Info                         http://www.pontix.com/dimitar

Response:

Is there (strong) evidence that the quality problems at LR are over — I was at the SF Int’l Auto Show on Sat and saw the Discovery, then yesterday I test-drove one at the dealer. I liked the car, not to mention that it has the kind of character I’m looking for — but the legion of dissatisfied customers parading around and the widely akcnowledged quality problems are the huge deterrent that holds me back from investing into one. When I asked point-blank the English rep at the show about the quality, he acted with the unmistakable aplomb of a medieval prince, raised a glass with a flair and and drank for what he called ‘the new reliable Discovery’ while the only specific info he dispatched was to mention that the electric system has been replaced with a German one… (there was one of the ladies modelling near by so that’s more plausable explanation for the pompous act, rather than mere conviction). A nice jest but I’m afraid my needs are more prosaic than that… I need a reliable car… I do not want to have to shove this prince’s glass back into his a** if all this is a joke… Has the BMW ownership had an impact yet? I’m a sold BMW customer and trust them, but I wonder if they have been able to straighten that house yet. Then the dealer was very pleasant and most importantly did not try to bullshit me about the past (hopefully) quality problems. He admitted that indeed 94 was a bad year, 95 not so bad, while the 96 was the worst. But he said that 97 has been exceptional and gave me some other tidbits supposed to serve as evidence of improved quality… He said that there wasn’t one specific overwhelming problem during the bad years but rather a wide variety of issues. So my question is: is there any strong evidence of a marked quality improvement of the Land Rover Discovery? Also can someone knowledgable comment on the following claims about the LRD: best ABS in the business, lowest center of gravity, strongly reinforced coupe, etc. Cheers,      Dimitar P.S. A side note: It’s amazing that no LRD owners have gone postal yet, if the frequency and severity of their problems are true. That must be a statistical phenomenon… Considering the kind of a drag it is being towed, something that can ruin one’s mood in a hurry, with the effect worsening in a geometric progression with subsequent drops at the dealer in a short time span, delays, betrayal of trust, fear of driving and so on. Anyway, after observing the spectacle of my bro his and his cheatful Renault a few years back, I’m naturally concerned not to get on the same stage. But I hope all that has changed. — Pontix Consulting, Inc.               http://www.pontix.com/ Personal Info                         http://www.pontix.com/dimitar

Response:

I am far from objective about LR.  If I won one in a contest, I would sell it at first light.  However, people in the know on this list suggest that they have improved.  For me, I will never believe that LR cares about its customers.  Quality with the vehicle was a serious problem, and it may well have been addressed, but I can not believe that the attitude of LR has changed.  Any company that has its lawyers write people and warn them against criticizing the company and its products will never get my business again. I wish you good luck if you end up with a LR product.  I sincerely hope you don’t need it (the luck, that is). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there (strong) evidence that the quality problems at LR are over — I was at the SF Int’l Auto Show on Sat and saw the Discovery, then yesterday I test-drove one at the dealer. I liked the car, not to mention that it has the kind of character I’m looking for — but the legion of dissatisfied customers parading around and the widely akcnowledged quality problems are the huge deterrent that holds me back from investing into one. When I asked point-blank the English rep at the show about the quality, he acted with the unmistakable aplomb of a medieval prince, raised a glass with a flair and and drank for what he called ‘the new reliable Discovery’ while the only specific info he dispatched was to mention that the electric system has been replaced with a German one… (there was one of the ladies modelling near by so that’s more plausable explanation for the pompous act, rather than mere conviction). A nice jest but I’m afraid my needs are more prosaic than that… I need a reliable car… I do not want to have to shove this prince’s glass back into his a** if all this is a joke… Has the BMW ownership had an impact yet? I’m a sold BMW customer and trust them, but I wonder if they have been able to straighten that house yet. Then the dealer was very pleasant and most importantly did not try to bullshit me about the past (hopefully) quality problems. He admitted that indeed 94 was a bad year, 95 not so bad, while the 96 was the worst. But he said that 97 has been exceptional and gave me some other tidbits supposed to serve as evidence of improved quality… He said that there wasn’t one specific overwhelming problem during the bad years but rather a wide variety of issues. So my question is: is there any strong evidence of a marked quality improvement of the Land Rover Discovery? Also can someone knowledgable comment on the following claims about the LRD: best ABS in the business, lowest center of gravity, strongly reinforced coupe, etc. Cheers,      Dimitar P.S. A side note: It’s amazing that no LRD owners have gone postal yet, if the frequency and severity of their problems are true. That must be a statistical phenomenon… Considering the kind of a drag it is being towed, something that can ruin one’s mood in a hurry, with the effect worsening in a geometric progression with subsequent drops at the dealer in a short time span, delays, betrayal of trust, fear of driving and so on. Anyway, after observing the spectacle of my bro his and his cheatful Renault a few years back, I’m naturally concerned not to get on the same stage. But I hope all that has changed. — Pontix Consulting, Inc.               http://www.pontix.com/ Personal Info                         http://www.pontix.com/dimitar

– Grant Wilkinson Ottawa, Canada

Response:

Filed under: Lobbying

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