Activism Change

give it up

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So when women have sex, they’re "giving it up" and when men have sex, they are "getting lucky?" Where does this shit come from? My mom taught me that sex was what women have to exchange for financial security, so don’t "give it up" until he marries you.  Really, where does this shit come from? And what will happen to my daughters if I teach them that sex is to be enjoyed instead of bartered? They’ll grow up to be healthy women without some of these absurd ideas about sex? Nina

My husband is afraid that they’ll jump into sex too early, and be used and hurt by the kind of immature jerk that he was when he was in high school.

Response:

So when women have sex, they’re "giving it up" and when men have sex, they are "getting lucky?" Where does this shit come from? My mom taught me that sex was what women have to exchange for financial security, so don’t "give it up" until he marries you.  Really, where does this shit come from? And what will happen to my daughters if I teach them that sex is to be enjoyed instead of bartered?

Response:

Where does this shit come from? It’s handed from mother to daughter, and father to son, down through the ages. When does this shit stop? When enough parents stop and think like you have. Good on you, Cindy Lou!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So when women have sex, they’re "giving it up" and when men have sex, they are "getting lucky?" Where does this shit come from? My mom taught me that sex was what women have to exchange for financial security, so don’t "give it up" until he marries you.  Really, where does this shit come from? And what will happen to my daughters if I teach them that sex is to be enjoyed instead of bartered?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So when women have sex, they’re "giving it up" and when men have sex, they are "getting lucky?" Where does this shit come from? My mom taught me that sex was what women have to exchange for financial security, so don’t "give it up" until he marries you.  Really, where does this shit come from? And what will happen to my daughters if I teach them that sex is to be enjoyed instead of bartered? They’ll grow up to be healthy women without some of these absurd ideas about sex? My husband is afraid that they’ll jump into sex too early, and be used and hurt by the kind of immature jerk that he was when he was in high school.

So you teach them about that too.  You teach them to respect themselves, so that they’re more likely to make the right choices about when, and about who with. -c

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband is afraid that they’ll jump into sex too early, and be used and hurt by the kind of immature jerk that he was when he was in high school. I don’t think so.  Not if part of the lesson is also to value yourself, and you can value yourself without seeing yourself as a commodity to be sold to the highest bidder.  For whatever it’s worth, I think that boys should be taught the same lesson, that sex is precious, not something to be leapt into at every opportunity. (Of course, I haven’t exactly lived that lesson.  But it’s what I’ll teach.) Nina

Parenting is hard. I’ve never used "parent" as a verb before.  Or is it a gerund?  Yes, I think it is a gerund. Anyway, I don’t know exactly what to say.  I think we’re going to read a book together a discuss it. We had the "sex" talk.  It lasted all of about three minutes.  (Insert sex joke here.)  She didn’t have any questions.  Afterwards I realized that I had explained mechanics, but not morals, or values, or much of anything else.  That’s the way my mind works.  I wonder what she thought of it all. Cindy Lou

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So when women have sex, they’re "giving it up" and when men have sex, they are "getting lucky?" Where does this shit come from? My mom taught me that sex was what women have to exchange for financial security, so don’t "give it up" until he marries you.  Really, where does this shit come from? And what will happen to my daughters if I teach them that sex is to be enjoyed instead of bartered? They’ll grow up to be healthy women without some of these absurd ideas about sex? Nina My husband is afraid that they’ll jump into sex too early, and be used and hurt by the kind of immature jerk that he was when he was in high school.

i think the reverse, actually. if you teach them what your mom taught you, that "sex is what women have to exchange for financial security, so don’t ‘give it up’ until he marries you," i think it is much more likely that the main message they will absorb is that "sex is what women have to exchange for emotional security, so ‘give it up’ to try to keep him close to you." and so they will. my 2 cents, at least. postmail

Response:

Hey, that’s what my mom taught me. It didn’t turn me into a monster or anything! That’s actually probably the only area of my life in which I *don’t* have a ton of guilt. Tell your daughters the truth (I know you were planning to, anyway.  *grin*) chelsea

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So when women have sex, they’re "giving it up" and when men have sex, they are "getting lucky?" Where does this shit come from? My mom taught me that sex was what women have to exchange for financial security, so don’t "give it up" until he marries you.  Really, where does this shit come from? And what will happen to my daughters if I teach them that sex is to be enjoyed instead of bartered?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So when women have sex, they’re "giving it up" and when men have sex, they are "getting lucky?" Where does this shit come from? My mom taught me that sex was what women have to exchange for financial security, so don’t "give it up" until he marries you.  Really, where does this shit come from? And what will happen to my daughters if I teach them that sex is to be enjoyed instead of bartered? They’ll grow up to be healthy women without some of these absurd ideas about sex? My husband is afraid that they’ll jump into sex too early, and be used and hurt by the kind of immature jerk that he was when he was in high school. So you teach them about that too.  You teach them to respect themselves, so that they’re more likely to make the right choices about when, and about who with. -c

Self-respect.  Self-esteem.  Self-confidence.  Elusive concepts.  This needs thought. I parent by logic and "non-example."  Meaning that I think about what my parents did, and if I hated it, I do the opposite.  Examples:  I read to them a lot, I hug them, and hold hands with them, and make sure they get lots of touch.  I tell them at least once a day that I love them, I encourage their effort, not their grades, I ask about their day, I volunteer and participate in their activities.  With the encouragement of my therapist, I’ve been pointing out, and trying to talk about feelings. I don’t know how to instill self-respect, self-esteem, and self-confidence. I hope they are by-products of the other things they are learning.  My therapist specializes in children.  (That sounds funny.)  He loves to talk about this stuff.  I think I’ll bring it up, if I’m doing ok with me, next week.

Response:

That’s kinda funny, isn’t it?  I learned the "wrong" stuff, yet I turned out ok in that area.  Sometimes I think I missed out on a lot of fun, but I’m happy with where I ended up. Ummm, you don’t mean the "whole" truth do you?  (I’ll discuss my sexual history with them if they ask, but not my drug experimentation days.  Nope, too scary.)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, that’s what my mom taught me. It didn’t turn me into a monster or anything! That’s actually probably the only area of my life in which I *don’t* have a ton of guilt. Tell your daughters the truth (I know you were planning to, anyway.  *grin*) chelsea So when women have sex, they’re "giving it up" and when men have sex, they are "getting lucky?" Where does this shit come from? My mom taught me that sex was what women have to exchange for financial security, so don’t "give it up" until he marries you.  Really, where does this shit come from? And what will happen to my daughters if I teach them that sex is to be enjoyed instead of bartered?

Response:

So when women have sex, they’re "giving it up" and when men have sex, they are "getting lucky?" Where does this shit come from? My mom taught me that sex was what women have to exchange for financial security, so don’t "give it up" until he marries you.  Really, where does this shit come from? And what will happen to my daughters if I teach them that sex is to be enjoyed instead of bartered?

There are evolutionary-based differences between men and women when it comes to sex.  I think this becomes most obvious when you compare the sex lives of homosexual men to homosexual women.  Generally, gay men have lots of sex with random strangers, whereas lesbians tend to form serially monogomous relationships.  It’s also evident when you compare the sexual lives of tall, attractive men to short, unattractive men.  I read some statistic, I think attractive men have 20x+ more encounters than unattractive men, and the age at which they become sexually active is much younger than unattractive men. Generally, women make men compete, and then select the best male, whereas men seek out quantity and variety. The reasons for this have to do with plumbing.  If a woman gets pregnant, she’s stuck for 9 months, then many years until the kid grows up.  So she’s got to choose wisely.  Not only does she need good, strong genes to ensure viable offspring, but she needs a stable mate who’s going to help her feed and protect the kid.  Men on the other hand face much less risk from sex.  They can impregnate a woman then move on.  They’ve added their genes to the gene pool at much less cost to them.  So one evolutionary pressure they face is to seek out lots of sex, the more the better. I’ve probably done a shitty job of explaining myself, but this is how I understand things.  Women and men are built differently, with tangential needs.  Culture takes these biological differences and and gives the weight of social pressure to further expound on them.  But I think fundamentally, the differences won’t be fully eradicated, no matter how much you try to teach it out of out of your kids.  Your daughters will still seek out the most desirable males, and will still be the ones who have the power to say "no" or "yes".  Men seek, women give permission.  I don’t think this will ever change, not unless we engineer it out of the human genome.

Response:

I don’t know how to instill self-respect, self-esteem, and self-confidence. I hope they are by-products of the other things they are learning.  My therapist specializes in children.  (That sounds funny.)  He loves to talk about this stuff.  I think I’ll bring it up, if I’m doing ok with me, next week.

My original therapist was a child psychologist, not only did he help me personally, but he was invaluable when I was worried about my parenting skills and the best way deal with certain situations. Linda – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You set your own limits. Cindy Lou I hate it when I say things like this. You’re attitude determines your altitude. PMA all the way. PMA? Smile – it takes fewer muscles. -Thor, so damn happy I wanna puke  ;-) — "I’d rather be loved by only me,      than create a facade and be loved by no one." — wombn "Never give up", Winston Churchill x-no-archive: yes is in the headers for others’ sake www.mindspring.com/~wombn

positive mental attitude

Response:

There is a direct, linear relationship between height in males and income.  The taller you are, the more money earn, on average.  I’ll support affirmative action and anti-discrimination laws when they include short men.  I’ll support the ERA if we have an ERA for short men. I can’t believe that you actually said that.  Even if you think it was a joke – it wasn’t funny.

Anti-discrimination are discriminatory because they enumerate protected classes.  By omission, they are simultaneously saying that other classes are NOT protected.  Hence you get groups lobbying to be included in the protected classes, such as fat people.  Why are women more deserving of constitutional protection than short men? My point is, PEOPLE should be protected, not arbitrary classes.  The classes to do get protected are only those that can muster enough political clout.  Weaker classes, less organized classes lose.  By enumerating classes, you consequently exclude others.  That’s not right, IMO. The life expectancy for married men is *9 years* higher than unmarried men.  The best thing you can do for a male’s health is to ensure that he gets married.  If we get universal health care, I will demand that they include finding wives for unattractive men who can’t get wives. Are you an idiot? Unfuckingbelievable!

Where’s the flaw in my logic?  Point it out, and I’ll retract my statement.

Response:

Why do women require protection?  Women get pregnant. Women earn less for the same work.

This is factually incorrect.  When adjusted for differences in experience, etc…studies have shown women earn 98 cents to the dollar.  Every job I’ve ever had, I’ve never seen women paid less because they were girls.  Not once.  I hire people.  Why the heck would I pay someone less because they are female?  I’m happy if I can get someone who can remember to breathe properly. If they can actually clean to boot, well I’ll pay them everything I can, cause they’ll save me a lot of headaches.  I could care less whether they are male or female.  Women have historically been treated as the lesser sex.  Less intelligent, less creative, and less of a human.  For generations the West has been a patriarchial society and to change that attitude we must change the way people think and the way they perceive the world.  If children only ever see white female elementary school teachers, then that is what they will think is normal.  Is that normal or can anyone be an elementary school teacher?

Same goes for unattractive men.  I know *damn* well what it feels like to be treated as less than human.  Especially by many women, who you would universally class every single one as a victim.  Sorry, lily white sorority chicks who don’t make senior partner, and suffer at $250,000/yr, I have difficulty comparing them to many others who suffer in this world. Truthseeker is fucking dead, he stepped in front of a goddamn train.  I guess his pain doesn’t count? To you political correctness and equality sound stupid, but you were raised in a different era.  To the 5 year olds today, they don’t know any differently and they will grow up with a totally different language and view of the work place than us.  Dumb blonde will never be heard in a office again and the phrase "Ooops, she is having a blonde moment" will be stricken from the public memory. Racial slurs will not be acceptable… do you see where I am going here?

I’m talking about moral consistency. In order to change the next generation and make life better for everyone, we have to make some tough choices today.  Do we give blacks the same employment opportunities as whites?  Historically no, so we have to swing the pendulum the other way until there is a true representation of the population.  You can’t tell me that 20% of all CEO’s are black and yet that is their demographic in the US.  The same goes for other minorities.

This is too big a topic for this board.  I’ll say this.  When I first started in the cleaning biz, I was immediately bumped to ops manager of this small company.  There were 2 black guys I worked with.  Both great guys, both hard workers.  Both were functionally illiterate, had very poor interpersonal skills, and were totally unqualified to be supervisors.  Great workers, great guys, not supervisors.  Had absolutely NOTHING to do with their skin color, it had to do with THEM.  Yet they thought the owner of the company was racist, because he didn’t make them supervisors.  I think this attitude does not help these 2 men.  They are falsely victimizing themselves, and really holding themselves back by ignoring obvious reality. I wanted to work on Wall Street and make lots and lots of money after hearing about Michael Milkin et. al.  Obvious reality is, I’d have been eaten alive by those people.  I’d probably have killed myself being in that environment.  So I adapted.  I survived.  And I’m a hell of a lot stronger than I’ve ever been. Is racism bad?  Yup.  Do I see racism in the same places you do?  In many cases, probably not. Now if you want to call yourself a minority and would like employment equality because you are short, fine. Prove to me that you have been discriminated against and I will fight tooth and nail for you.

You said women earn less than men.  Short men earn less than tall men.  That’s a statistical fact.  Start fighting.  Do not, however, whine because women don’t like you as well as they like the tall man standing next to you.

It’s about moral consistency.  If I’m in a group of 20-something women, and I point to a guy and say, "Look at that nigger", then laughed, they’d stone me.  Rightly so.  If I point to an unattractive guy and say "Look at that pathetic geek", they’d laugh with me.  That’s bullshit. My point is, PEOPLE should be protected, not arbitrary classes.  The classes to do get protected are only those that can muster enough political clout.  Weaker classes, less organized classes lose.  By enumerating classes, you consequently exclude others.  That’s not right, IMO. I don’t see it as exclusionary.  It is supposed to be protecting everyone.  It is saying under the law that all people are to be treated equal.  You should be judged only on your qualifications and suitability for the job. Whether you attend a church or a temple should not matter and under law, it can’t matter.  Do you have a problem with being judged on your qualifications?  I don’t.

Nope, I don’t either.  I guess we’re in agreement. Okay, there a couple of reasons why I can’t believe you said this. You are mocking universal health care and you are using a ludicrous example to prove your point.  It seems apparent that you don’t believe in it and think that it would place government restrictions on your ability to get proper medical treatment.  Does that summarize your anti-universal health-care position?  You feel better served by an HMO, correct?

I’m undecided on health care because it’s too complex, and I don’t have enough information to make an informed decision.  I’ve stated this before.  I’m mocking moral inconsistency. So you mock a health system which many people on this group are served by and use the stupidest example imaginable.  You insult most of the Western World with a idiotic statement like that.  Or maybe you really believe that this is what universal healthcare would lead to?

So, the fact that marriage adds significantly to the life expectancy of men, that’s irrelevant?  Men’s lives don’t count? You are also insulting every man on this group who isn’t currently married and may feel that he will never marry. You are saying (jokingly or not) give up.  There is no hope for you and unless the government finds you a wife, you will die young and alone.  Nice!

No, I’m not saying that.  In fact, I’m saying the exact opposite.  I’ve BEEN that unmarried, dateless guy.  Most of my fucking life, in fact.  Didn’t have too many people fighting for me back then.  In fact, most told me to just quit whining and cheer up. I also have a theory about single women living longer than married women – so how would that be solved by your health care system?  I guess that short men would get wives and tall women could remain single?  Would that work for you?

Makes sense to me!  That way, the single women don’t need to worry about kids and family, and can work in power careers, make lots of money, then pay all that money to the gov’t due to criminally high marginal tax rates.  We’ll have the gov’t mandate that these women become CEO’s, so that they can be successful like the men, then we’ll take their money away, so we can punish their success, because success is bad.

Response:

The life expectancy for married men is *9 years* higher than unmarried men.  The best thing you can do for a male’s health is to ensure that he gets married.  If we get universal health care, I will demand that they include finding wives for unattractive men who can’t get wives. Are you an idiot? Unfuckingbelievable! Where’s the flaw in my logic?  Point it out, and I’ll retract my statement.

will you also demand that people from the government health bureaucracy buckle up drivers before they get on the road? follow all smokers to snatch cigarettes out of their mouths? reinstate prohibition? in my opinion, you are creating a standard which much too high. a universal health care plan could focus on areas of preventive medicine which *don’t* use force to control people’s lives to such a high degree. ferret

Response:

There is a direct, linear relationship between height in males and income.  The taller you are, the more money earn, on average.  I’ll support affirmative action and anti-discrimination laws when they include short men.  I’ll support the ERA if we have an ERA for short men.

I can’t believe that you actually said that.  Even if you think it was a joke – it wasn’t funny. The life expectancy for married men is *9 years* higher than unmarried men.  The best thing you can do for a male’s health is to ensure that he gets married.  If we get universal health care, I will demand that they include finding wives for unattractive men who can’t get wives.

Are you an idiot? Unfuckingbelievable!

Response:

hahahaha! I’d rather discuss my sexual history than my drug experimentation! Now I’m revealing too darned much information… (hmmmm, if Clinton didn’t inhale, should I just say I didn’t come?) LOLOL chelsea

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s kinda funny, isn’t it?  I learned the "wrong" stuff, yet I turned out ok in that area.  Sometimes I think I missed out on a lot of fun, but I’m happy with where I ended up. Ummm, you don’t mean the "whole" truth do you?  (I’ll discuss my sexual history with them if they ask, but not my drug experimentation days. Nope, too scary.) Hey, that’s what my mom taught me. It didn’t turn me into a monster or anything! That’s actually probably the only area of my life in which I *don’t* have a ton of guilt. Tell your daughters the truth (I know you were planning to, anyway.  *grin*) chelsea So when women have sex, they’re "giving it up" and when men have sex, they are "getting lucky?" Where does this shit come from? My mom taught me that sex was what women have to exchange for financial security, so don’t "give it up" until he marries you.  Really, where does this shit come from? And what will happen to my daughters if I teach them that sex is to be enjoyed instead of bartered?

Response:

I know these things. But I still think that ’short’ should not equal ‘unattractive.’ I wonder how many of those tall men who were married at an early age are now divorced.

Actually, you are correct.  Perhaps it should be called an "undesirable" feature (i.e. one feature out of many that compose a person’s overall attractiveness.) Anyway, sorry to jump all over you in that last post, Philippa.  I was just using your post for my own personal soapbox.  You’re still a babe.

Response:

I know these things. But I still think that ’short’ should not equal ‘unattractive.’ I wonder how many of those tall men who were married at an early age are now divorced. long-term success is different than short-term.

excellent point

Response:

It’s also evident when you compare the sexual lives of tall, attractive men to short, unattractive men.  I read some statistic, I think attractive men have 20x+ more encounters than unattractive men, and the age at which they become sexually active is much younger than unattractive men.  Generally, women make men compete, and then select the best male, whereas men seek out quantity and variety.

"best male" I married the "best male."  He is not the tallest, most attractive man I could have selected.  I married the one who made me laugh, was easy-going, and gave me respect and freedom.  He was unemployed, not very ambitious, shy, and a slob. But he made me laugh, and feel alive, and I knew that he wouldn’t try to control me.  I would be able to do or be anything that *I* decided I wanted. Just my opinion Thor, but I think you spend an awful lot of time thinking about how you’ve been cheated out of a wonderful life because of (your perception of) your physical appearance.  All of the studies in the world won’t tell you what’s going to happen to you.  You set your own limits. Cindy Lou

Response:

Are you saying that because Thor once experienced discrimination based on his appearance (height or attractiveness) that he is extra sensitive and aware of it as it still happens in society, even though it may no longer affect him personally?

Yes, this is pretty much the case.  I’m actually quite happy with my life right now, at least as far as having a woman goes.  Socially I’m doing much better too.  I’m still an awkward dork, but things don’t faze me as much anymore, I’m much more resilient. It still bothers me a lot that people are treated like crap because they do not meet other people’s expectations of physical attractiveness.  I have no problem with people selecting a mate that they find attracitve.  I have a big problem with treating someone like dirt because they are physically unattractive, or fat, or have a handicap, or don’t have a high IQ, or have darker skin, or whatever.  Especially when the people doing the discriminating are whining about discrimination that they face.  Hypocrisy just fries me to the bone.

Response:

You set your own limits. Cindy Lou I hate it when I say things like this.

You’re attitude determines your altitude. PMA all the way. Smile – it takes fewer muscles. -Thor, so damn happy I wanna puke  ;-)

Response:

You set your own limits. Cindy Lou

I hate it when I say things like this.

Response:

Just my opinion Thor, but I think you spend an awful lot of time thinking about how you’ve been cheated out of a wonderful life because of (your perception of) your physical appearance.  All of the studies in the world won’t tell you what’s going to happen to you.  You set your own limits. I see it as similar to examining what in our society allows child sexual abuse to continue.  I’m past most of the healing (except the parts of the mult-headed snake that pop up with no warning), but I still keep an eye out for how our culture (and biology) perpetuates it.

Sorry.  I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying that because Thor once experienced discrimination based on his appearance (height or attractiveness) that he is extra sensitive and aware of it as it still happens in society, even though it may no longer affect him personally? long sentence

Response:

Anti-discrimination are discriminatory because they enumerate protected classes.  By omission, they are simultaneously saying that other classes are NOT protected.  Hence you get groups lobbying to be included in the protected classes, such as fat people.  Why are women more deserving of constitutional protection than short men?

Okay – I am going to answer you seriously here.  The ERA is an American law and I am Canadian.  I may not agree with your position, but that doesn’t mean I am defending the US law as it currently reads, okay?  I am defending the law as it was intended to work. Why do women require protection?  Women get pregnant. Women earn less for the same work.  Women have historically been treated as the lesser sex.  Less intelligent, less creative, and less of a human.  For generations the West has been a patriarchial society and to change that attitude we must change the way people think and the way they perceive the world.  If children only ever see white female elementary school teachers, then that is what they will think is normal.  Is that normal or can anyone be an elementary school teacher? To you political correctness and equality sound stupid, but you were raised in a different era.  To the 5 year olds today, they don’t know any differently and they will grow up with a totally different language and view of the work place than us.  Dumb blonde will never be heard in a office again and the phrase "Ooops, she is having a blonde moment" will be stricken from the public memory. Racial slurs will not be acceptable… do you see where I am going here? In order to change the next generation and make life better for everyone, we have to make some tough choices today.  Do we give blacks the same employment opportunities as whites?  Historically no, so we have to swing the pendulum the other way until there is a true representation of the population.  You can’t tell me that 20% of all CEO’s are black and yet that is their demographic in the US.  The same goes for other minorities. Now if you want to call yourself a minority and would like employment equality because you are short, fine. Prove to me that you have been discriminated against and I will fight tooth and nail for you.  Do not, however, whine because women don’t like you as well as they like the tall man standing next to you.  That is not covered by the ERA.  The Asian man can not sue because his Black co-worker gets more dates and the same goes for you. Equal rights does not mean that an unqualified Asian person can get a job over a qualified black person.  It simply means that you must consider who is the best person for the job, regardless of race, sex or religion. That doesn’t sound like it is discriminating against anyone to me, does it to you?   It also means that you can’t refuse to hire a woman who may be of an age to have children.  Imagine if all women between the ages of 20 and 35 were not protected by law. Why would an employer hire them and invest time and energy training them for bigger and better things?  She is just going to have a baby and quit working so let’s hire a man instead.  He can’t get pregnant and he probably golf’s better as well. My point is, PEOPLE should be protected, not arbitrary classes.  The classes to do get protected are only those that can muster enough political clout.  Weaker classes, less organized classes lose.  By enumerating classes, you consequently exclude others.  That’s not right, IMO.

I don’t see it as exclusionary.  It is supposed to be protecting everyone.  It is saying under the law that all people are to be treated equal.  You should be judged only on your qualifications and suitability for the job. Whether you attend a church or a temple should not matter and under law, it can’t matter.  Do you have a problem with being judged on your qualifications?  I don’t. The life expectancy for married men is *9 years* higher than unmarried men.  The best thing you can do for a male’s health is to ensure that he gets married.  If we get universal health care, I will demand that they include finding wives for unattractive men who can’t get wives. Are you an idiot? Unfuckingbelievable! Where’s the flaw in my logic?  Point it out, and I’ll retract my statement.

Okay, there a couple of reasons why I can’t believe you said this. You are mocking universal health care and you are using a ludicrous example to prove your point.  It seems apparent that you don’t believe in it and think that it would place government restrictions on your ability to get proper medical treatment.  Does that summarize your anti-universal health-care position?  You feel better served by an HMO, correct?   So you mock a health system which many people on this group are served by and use the stupidest example imaginable.  You insult most of the Western World with a idiotic statement like that.  Or maybe you really believe that this is what universal healthcare would lead to? You are also insulting every man on this group who isn’t currently married and may feel that he will never marry. You are saying (jokingly or not) give up.  There is no hope for you and unless the government finds you a wife, you will die young and alone.  Nice! I also have a theory about single women living longer than married women – so how would that be solved by your health care system?  I guess that short men would get wives and tall women could remain single?  Would that work for you? Maggie

Response:

Filed under: Lobbying

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