Activism Change

apologia

Question:

In objecting to prejudice and unjustified generalisation, don’t use those same things in your argument. Small example: If a woman asked me out on a date, I (personally) would not call her a slut. (I would probably accept gladly, but you don’t need to hear about my social life) The asking is (as everyone should know) the difficult part, exposing oneself to the possibility of rejection. There are 2.5 billion men on the planet, we are not all the same, just as you argue not all women fit the stereotype, nor latinos, nor black people. Otherwise, I feel that you are generally right in saying what you do. I will, however, continue to offer my assistance to women who seem to be having difficulty with heavy or awkward loads, as I will to men in the same circumstances. I am beginning to suspect that feminism has killed off chivalry in precisely these circumstances, as the offer is as likely to be the cause of a lecture such as the one you gave below, as it is to be received with gratitude. Such are the confusing times we live in. sincerely, Ben. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <sniparoo You tell me, what priveleges have I been "handed" just because I was born a white man? Go right ahead, list them all in order of importance. <snip it one more time… Ludvig Prinn Worker of Miracles I hope you don’t mind if I intrude into your boy’s club debate, but I really want to sound off here.  Besides, you can’t really stop me. You want to know what priveleges you have just because you were born a white male?  Well, I’m a white female, and I know many females, of white, black, asian, and latin descent, and we could all tell you exactly what you have that we don’t. In the society of America, in this time, the privelages of the white man are many.  You are assumed to be competent at a job.  Any job. Women must prove that we can do the job, and many times in order to recieve acknowledgement of our abilities, we must so far surpass men that we do twice the work.  Where else could a woman be asked to clean a bathroom just because she’s a ’she’ and so is inherantly better at cleaning than a man?  Puh-lease.  I’ve seen women who couldn’t clean their way out of a sterile room.  It is automatically assumed that women are unable to lift heavy weights.  I worked as a carry out clerk in a grocery store for a year.  I can carry two cases of soda, one in either hand.  And yet, every time I did so, someone would comment on how strong I am.  Interestingly, both men and women would say something.  I can carry four gallons of milk at one time.  And I can lift a hundred pounds of dog food, walk with it and then put it down gently.  Yet to this day, men constantly ask, ‘You need some help with that?’  I like it that they ask, if they ask out of politeness.  But too often, they have that smirk that says, ‘I bet you need a good man to help you.’ Here’s another one.  It is ok for a man to call a woman ‘baby’, or ’sweetie’, but if a woman calls a man ’studmuffin’, the man gets offended.  Yes, I did call him that, and he did get embarassed.  (He blushed, it was sooo cute…)  Sorry, I’m a little distracted, I got a new sweetie, myself.  Back to the point:  There was a coworker who called me ‘chick’.  So I told him not to, and he told me not to get my panties in a twist.  In revenge, I called him studboy, and lovemuscle. He got the point, and stopped calling me names.   Here’s another:  Supposedly men are better at logic and math than women.  I bought into that one too, until I went to college.  Every math class I’ve taken I got A’s in.  And you know those logic puzzles that look like crossword puzzles, and you have to figure out who did what with who?  I love those things.  They are so relaxing.   How bout some more?  When I told my relatives I was going to college, they asked if I was going to get married soon.  Now, to me, the two aren’t related, but to them, the only reason for a woman to go to college was to get a man.  And this is the nineties?   Want another?  If a woman asks a man out, she is seen as a slut.  But if a man asks a woman out, he is manly. If a woman decides to buy a car, she will find that the price is jacked up.  But a man can get a better deal.  Trust me, it’s not because we can’t bargin.  I own a $300 bracelet that I got for $90. No tax, 60% off, wore it out of the store.  And I have purchased three beds, frame and matress, for $400.  Free delivery, and free assembly. Yet I can’t manage to find a decently priced car that won’t fall apart, or a salesman that will talk to me like a human being.  I hate it that in order to get my good deals, I used my ‘feminine wiles’, and flirted like crazy.  If the guy was willing to sell at that price, why did I have to degrade myself in order to get that price?   How about some race relations?  I have a friend who is mexican.  She is the sweetes person around.  We went out together to get a stereo. She wanted to surprise her husband.  All while we were looking at the stereos, a store clerk was watching us.  Now, no-one has ever watched me shop before.  I am a white woman, and I look like what I am, upper middle class, educated, clean, and well-off.  But just because I was with an obviously ethnic person, I was treated differently.  We paid at the electronics department, and were told to show the reciet at the door.  On our way out, a sales clerk ran after us, yelling, and proceeded to make us stand there for five minutes while she tried to read the reciet.  (the printed reciet, with prices and everything.) And then she looked in our bags, under the cart, and looked like she wanted to search our bodies.  The only reason we were treated like that was because my friend is latin.  And I have dark hair, so I looked latin.  This was at a branch of a very large chain store, starts with wal, that the both of us worked for!  (a different branch) GRRR My last roomate was black.  There were places she would not go, because they weren’t safe for her.  I could go there, but not she. When we went out together, people would stare.  At the university we attend, there were some white males who dressed as members of the Klan for halloween.  People use derogatory names around here all the time. And no-one bats an eye.  They do when I start yelling, though.  The thing is, I shouldn’t have to yell.   The point of all this is, it is true that you can’t mandate change. The government cannot do it.  Change in society must come from the bottom.  But where there are such glaring wrongs as existed in the earlier parts of the century, the only way to begin to change is for laws to be enacted.  Yes, men don’t have scholarships and a leg up, but they don’t need it.  No white male is going to be seen as a delicate, fragile weak thing that needs protecting.  No one will tell a man to stay home and raise babies because that’s all he has the brains or ability for.  And no man will be seen as someone’s property. There are still laws on the books that make it legal for a man to beat his wife.  I would rather die than have to live under the kinds of restrictions women faced in the 10’s, 20’s, and on up.  Lady forbid I should live in the 1600’s or later.  I would have been stoned as a heretic.  Women weren’t allowed to read, own property, vote, divorce their husbands, or even chose their own husband.  Daddy picked one out.  Ugh.   Before anyone starts yelling about do away with affirmative action, they should take a hard look at society, and decide if that is really the society they want to live in.  Really, you should look at the fifties, and see if you could live that way. Gryphynshadow

May your guitar never need tuning, and may your coleslaw never go soggy.

Response:

Hi there. As a white male, I have a lot to apologise for,

Why? What, as a white male, are you personally responsible for? _   .Nisaba Merrieweather       ICQ: 29030378 Subscribe to .Nisaba’s mailing list by going to www.onelist.com.## The Goddess is alive, and Magick is afoot.## Cats: world domination and control of all fish supplies.##

Response:

<sniparoo You tell me, what priveleges have I been "handed" just because I was born a white man? Go right ahead, list them all in order of importance.

<snip it one more time… Ludvig Prinn Worker of Miracles

I hope you don’t mind if I intrude into your boy’s club debate, but I really want to sound off here.  Besides, you can’t really stop me. You want to know what priveleges you have just because you were born a white male?  Well, I’m a white female, and I know many females, of white, black, asian, and latin descent, and we could all tell you exactly what you have that we don’t. In the society of America, in this time, the privelages of the white man are many.  You are assumed to be competent at a job.  Any job. Women must prove that we can do the job, and many times in order to recieve acknowledgement of our abilities, we must so far surpass men that we do twice the work.  Where else could a woman be asked to clean a bathroom just because she’s a ’she’ and so is inherantly better at cleaning than a man?  Puh-lease.  I’ve seen women who couldn’t clean their way out of a sterile room.  It is automatically assumed that women are unable to lift heavy weights.  I worked as a carry out clerk in a grocery store for a year.  I can carry two cases of soda, one in either hand.  And yet, every time I did so, someone would comment on how strong I am.  Interestingly, both men and women would say something.  I can carry four gallons of milk at one time.  And I can lift a hundred pounds of dog food, walk with it and then put it down gently.  Yet to this day, men constantly ask, ‘You need some help with that?’  I like it that they ask, if they ask out of politeness.  But too often, they have that smirk that says, ‘I bet you need a good man to help you.’ Here’s another one.  It is ok for a man to call a woman ‘baby’, or ’sweetie’, but if a woman calls a man ’studmuffin’, the man gets offended.  Yes, I did call him that, and he did get embarassed.  (He blushed, it was sooo cute…)  Sorry, I’m a little distracted, I got a new sweetie, myself.  Back to the point:  There was a coworker who called me ‘chick’.  So I told him not to, and he told me not to get my panties in a twist.  In revenge, I called him studboy, and lovemuscle. He got the point, and stopped calling me names.   Here’s another:  Supposedly men are better at logic and math than women.  I bought into that one too, until I went to college.  Every math class I’ve taken I got A’s in.  And you know those logic puzzles that look like crossword puzzles, and you have to figure out who did what with who?  I love those things.  They are so relaxing.   How bout some more?  When I told my relatives I was going to college, they asked if I was going to get married soon.  Now, to me, the two aren’t related, but to them, the only reason for a woman to go to college was to get a man.  And this is the nineties?   Want another?  If a woman asks a man out, she is seen as a slut.  But if a man asks a woman out, he is manly. If a woman decides to buy a car, she will find that the price is jacked up.  But a man can get a better deal.  Trust me, it’s not because we can’t bargin.  I own a $300 bracelet that I got for $90. No tax, 60% off, wore it out of the store.  And I have purchased three beds, frame and matress, for $400.  Free delivery, and free assembly. Yet I can’t manage to find a decently priced car that won’t fall apart, or a salesman that will talk to me like a human being.  I hate it that in order to get my good deals, I used my ‘feminine wiles’, and flirted like crazy.  If the guy was willing to sell at that price, why did I have to degrade myself in order to get that price?   How about some race relations?  I have a friend who is mexican.  She is the sweetes person around.  We went out together to get a stereo. She wanted to surprise her husband.  All while we were looking at the stereos, a store clerk was watching us.  Now, no-one has ever watched me shop before.  I am a white woman, and I look like what I am, upper middle class, educated, clean, and well-off.  But just because I was with an obviously ethnic person, I was treated differently.  We paid at the electronics department, and were told to show the reciet at the door.  On our way out, a sales clerk ran after us, yelling, and proceeded to make us stand there for five minutes while she tried to read the reciet.  (the printed reciet, with prices and everything.) And then she looked in our bags, under the cart, and looked like she wanted to search our bodies.  The only reason we were treated like that was because my friend is latin.  And I have dark hair, so I looked latin.  This was at a branch of a very large chain store, starts with wal, that the both of us worked for!  (a different branch) GRRR My last roomate was black.  There were places she would not go, because they weren’t safe for her.  I could go there, but not she. When we went out together, people would stare.  At the university we attend, there were some white males who dressed as members of the Klan for halloween.  People use derogatory names around here all the time. And no-one bats an eye.  They do when I start yelling, though.  The thing is, I shouldn’t have to yell.   The point of all this is, it is true that you can’t mandate change. The government cannot do it.  Change in society must come from the bottom.  But where there are such glaring wrongs as existed in the earlier parts of the century, the only way to begin to change is for laws to be enacted.  Yes, men don’t have scholarships and a leg up, but they don’t need it.  No white male is going to be seen as a delicate, fragile weak thing that needs protecting.  No one will tell a man to stay home and raise babies because that’s all he has the brains or ability for.  And no man will be seen as someone’s property. There are still laws on the books that make it legal for a man to beat his wife.  I would rather die than have to live under the kinds of restrictions women faced in the 10’s, 20’s, and on up.  Lady forbid I should live in the 1600’s or later.  I would have been stoned as a heretic.  Women weren’t allowed to read, own property, vote, divorce their husbands, or even chose their own husband.  Daddy picked one out.  Ugh.   Before anyone starts yelling about do away with affirmative action, they should take a hard look at society, and decide if that is really the society they want to live in.  Really, you should look at the fifties, and see if you could live that way. Gryphynshadow

Response:

No not at all-apology is not a part of my argument, however, I do believe that those who by birth in a society are priveledged (in the U.S this would  be white males of European descent) Well, there’s your first wrong assumption. The myth of White Privelege has long since been exposed. Are you suggesting that white men are given college scholarships because of the color of their skin? No sane organization would do that, yet women and minorities enjoy that very privelege–free tuition based on the way they were born. White men have the LEAST priveleged of birthrights.

Really? In what authoritative sources has the white privelege "myth" been exposed? As for white men being given college scholarships, what I am suggesting is that white men, as a "socially priveleged class" have a greater range of  economic and social opportunities within the institutionalized social system. Surely you understand that. If you don’t, just pick up a newspaper. A man was forced to resign from his job (later rehired) over his use of the word "niggardly". How RIDICULOUS can you get? Black activists can say "honky man" on national TeeVee and get away with it with approval, but white people can’t even say a word that SOUNDS like "nigger"? Get real.

You’re shifting ground here, and your argument has at least two fallacies: attempting to appeal to authority, and  appeal to emotion, the newspaper of itself is not an authoritative source, nor is trying to sway the argument by calling me ridiculous. Further, you haven’t quite demonstrated the link between your example and your point, althought there may indeed be one. (in the U.S this would   be white males of European descent) have a responsibility to recognize the unearned priveledges they’ve been given within that society, You tell me, what priveleges have I been "handed" just because I was born a white man? Go right ahead, list them all in order of importance.

The extent of White Privelege is revealed most eloquently by how it is absent in other social sectors-For this I refer you to the SSI (Social Sciences Index).  The research threads on this are somewhat extensive, you might also consider taking a class in "Ethnicity or Diversity" or equivalent class at your local university.  As a start, I reccommend the -Mismeasure of Woman- by Carol Tavris, she has a number of good arguments that pertain to women.  There is also an author who has written and lectured extensively on the development of  African American identity and it’s relationship to white priviledge, however I cannot recall her name at present, I’ll see if I can find one of her articles in my archives. (snip for brevity)  That was Dr King’s dream, I believe. I think he would be appalled at the way his dream has been handled. His children are not growing up in a world where they are not judged by the color of their skin–they are growing up in a world where they are given to believe that world owes them a living BECAUSE of the color of their skin. It’s all still the same, except white men have become the underclass.

Are you identifying Dr.King’s children as "only" being African American?  To the best of my knowledge, his dream included all people. Clarify you argument please-Who in the world is giving the impression? What segment of society holds the authority and power here to give such an impression? This is not a case of us vs, them, as your use of language would suggest. Um, I believe it was YOU who first dichotomized America by separating the white men from everyone else.

I did make that distiction, but I did not make it into a conflict. A big part of the problem, I think is that for many priveledged folks, this issue is "someone elses problem" Actually, most of the people enjoying their status as priveleged citizens (women and minorities) are STILL not happy with having preferential hiring and college admission status. They don’t have to be as qualified to get hired for a job (Three Up), and still they complain that they don’t make more money than white men. I think you’ve been living in California too long, son. They’ve taken all your pride out of you.

We definitely are using priveleged differently-My point is that in a white-primarily male controlled society, white men do not have to use legal sanctions to get jobs, or get into college.  I disagree with preferential hiring and college admission status anyway-I would rather see college and hiring practices based on how well a person does the work, however, to ensure fairness-educational quality, standards and opportunities will need to be universally applied, and they are not.    As for the California comment-never been there, and sorry but you have not the wit to judge the state of my pride. No offense meant here-I would like to offer the observation that the fact that you use "we" as distinct from women and minorities No, when I said "We’ve all grown up." I was referring to America as a whole. We have grown older, though not necessarily matured in accordance with this. Still, we HAVE gone past the days where women’s work was only in the home and luncheonettes had "WHITES ONLY" signs on the doors. There are women and blacks in high corporate and political positions, unlike thirty years ago. Surely you understand that.

True-there have been changes for the better, at least on the surface of things, but at an institutional level things do not appear to have changed much. and talk about "levelling the playing field suggest that you may yourself be operating from the mindset of white priviledge. I see you’ve made yet another sloppy segue into the white privelege thing again. How does "levelling the playing field" endorse white power?

Its who is doing the levelling, not the leveling itself, that suggests a power over relationship, as opposed to a power with relationship Not really, however, I would like to thank you for the response and . I  don’t mind the personal contact, so long as appropriate courtesies are observed.

That’s what courtesy copies are for, baby. Have a nice day. Sorry Mr. Prin, but courtesy extends beyond the mailing of a courtesy copy, it extends also to the manner in which the dialog is carried out. as well.  Oh, and I am not your baby. Peace- Peredur

Response:

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 Umm I think I remember voting on this particular subject ( AA ). AA was put to the ballet to see if it could be removed from the books or however you want to put it. The Affirmative Action law lost out!! The majority of the people voted to get rid of it. I have not heard of any supreme court action stopping this action either. If my memory serves this was put to the vote over two yrs. ago… So the AA law is long gone. ( so if you hear those excuses it is time to sue for discrimination )

Morticha, federal EEOC (Equal Employment Opportunity Commission) regulations and Statistical Directive 15 is still being used at the federal level. However, states like California, Washington, Missouri, Illinois, Colorado and others are getting rid of are getting rid of racial and gender based AA laws. – From what I have heard the reason the Federal Government doesn’t fight these changes in state law is the fact the states would take it to the US Supreme court and make it a 9th and 10th Amendment issue in which the Supreme court would be forced to make a ruling about the constitutionality of the EEOC regs. The feds understand that if it goes to the SC there is a very good chance the EEOC regs would be found unconstitutional so the feds are not pressing the issue.    / . /^/ .  "The  Universe is already mad, anything   /  _)_’-'_(_    else would be redundant"  /.-’   ).(   ‘-.  – Ambassador Londo Molari /’     /_/     ‘ [Babylon 5]        "-V-" Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, 227(B)(C)(D), any and all nonsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address  is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount  of $500 US. E-mailing denotes acceptance of these terms. —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: PGPfreeware 5.5.5 for non-commercial use <http://www.nai.com iQA/AwUBNr3NeZSv5OCaPmHsEQIv5gCfS3l2GCJ0h2CafqYiVJfvfy0t8VMAn3XL aQ7Q5XGcjN5CvzUGM3gMTlPq =1AAg —–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

Response:

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 As a white male, I have a lot to apologise for,

IMHO, your being a "white male" is nothing to apologize for Benprime. It’s behaviors that irk some people, not what you are. but in this post I’ll only apologise for presuming to tell more experienced and knowledgable people how to behave.

*Shrug*  I’ve been told how to behave from many a poster BenPrime. You’re not the first, and I doubt you’ll be the last. As DL quite rightly said, it’s up to individuals what they do. So to all the real Wiccans out there who I offended by my righteous posting (what happened to harm none…?) my most genuine appologies.

Minor nitpick here BenPrime, who gets to judge who is a "real Wiccan"?  I will admit, however, it’s quite common for humans to judge one another, even when we feel no one has the right to judge our fellow humans. Whatever people _can_ choose though, they can’t escape the three-fold law (also known as karma) by choice or otherwise.

*Shrug*  I haven’t gotten nuked yet…  I’ve been up to this bad assed attitude since September 1998, and I have yet to be fried by the three-fold law.  And RBB has, in the past, been every bit as mean and nasty as my recent self, and she’s still here. sincerely, BenPrime.

- — DragonLady MKB — Solitary Eclectic Wiccan So what if I flame.  Would you expect any less from a dragon?  ;-) (My email address is a spammer trap.  I refuse to give out my new email address for fear of being spammed again.) For recipes and other interests, try http://www.neto.com/wildcard/ —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com iQA/AwUBNrzHn/ndrA237edBEQKeFwCaA3XojwwTMteAOTkrDvChrt6cZ8wAoNSa tB0VahEpNeWhH5OF5xTXeMzq =q1Ic —–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

Response:

As a white male, I have a lot to apologise for,

IMHO, your being a "white male" is nothing to apologize for Benprime.  It’s behaviors that irk some people, not what you are. but in this post I’ll only apologise for presuming to tell more experienced and knowledgable people how to behave.

*Shrug*  I’ve been told how to behave from many a poster BenPrime.  You’re not the first, and I doubt you’ll be the last. As DL quite rightly said, it’s up to individuals what they do. So to all the real Wiccans out there who I offended by my righteous posting (what happened to harm none…?) my most genuine appologies.

Minor nitpick here BenPrime, who gets to judge who is a "real Wiccan"?  I will admit, however, it’s quite common for humans to judge one another, even when we feel no one has the right to judge our fellow humans. Whatever people _can_ choose though, they can’t escape the three-fold law (also known as karma) by choice or otherwise.

*Shrug*  I haven’t gotten nuked yet…  I’ve been up to this bad assed attitude since September 1998, and I have yet to be fried by the three-fold law.  And RBB has, in the past, been every bit as mean and nasty as my recent self, and she’s still here. sincerely, BenPrime.

– DragonLady MKB — Solitary Eclectic Wiccan So what if I flame.  Would you expect any less from a dragon?  ;-) (My email address is a spammer trap.  I refuse to give out my new email address for fear of being spammed again.) For recipes and other interests, try http://www.neto.com/wildcard/

Response:

No not at all-apology is not a part of my argument, however, I do believe that those who by birth in a society are priveledged (in the U.S this would  be white males of European descent)

Well, there’s your first wrong assumption. The myth of White Privelege has long since been exposed. Are you suggesting that white men are given college scholarships because of the color of their skin? No sane organization would do that, yet women and minorities enjoy that very privelege–free tuition based on the way they were born. White men have the LEAST priveleged of birthrights. Surely you understand that. If you don’t, just pick up a newspaper. A man was forced to resign from his job (later rehired) over his use of the word "niggardly". How RIDICULOUS can you get? Black activists can say "honky man" on national TeeVee and get away with it with approval, but white people can’t even say a word that SOUNDS like "nigger"? Get real. (in the U.S this would   be white males of European descent) have a responsibility to recognize the unearned priveledges they’ve been given within that society,

You tell me, what priveleges have I been "handed" just because I was born a white man? Go right ahead, list them all in order of importance. the effects and injustices such unearned priveledges create and be willing to work towards such a society where opportunities are based on merit.

That was Dr King’s dream, I believe. I think he would be appalled at the way his dream has been handled. His children are not growing up in a world where they are not judged by the color of their skin–they are growing up in a world where they are given to believe that world owes them a living BECAUSE of the color of their skin. It’s all still the same, except white men have become the underclass. This is not a case of us vs, them, as your use of language would suggest.

Um, I believe it was YOU who first dichotomized America by separating the white men from everyone else. A big part of the problem, I think is that for many priveledged folks, this issue is "someone elses problem"

Actually, most of the people enjoying their status as priveleged citizens (women and minorities) are STILL not happy with having preferential hiring and college admission status. They don’t have to be as qualified to get hired for a job (Three Up), and still they complain that they don’t make more money than white men. I think you’ve been living in California too long, son. They’ve taken all your pride out of you. No offense meant here-I would like to offer the observation that the fact that you use "we" as distinct from women and minorities

No, when I said "We’ve all grown up." I was referring to America as a whole. We have grown older, though not necessarily matured in accordance with this. Still, we HAVE gone past the days where women’s work was only in the home and luncheonettes had "WHITES ONLY" signs on the doors. There are women and blacks in high corporate and political positions, unlike thirty years ago. Surely you understand that. and talk about "levelling the playing field suggest that you may yourself be operating from the mindset of white priviledge.

I see you’ve made yet another sloppy segue into the white privelege thing again. How does "levelling the playing field" endorse white power? Not really, however, I would like to thank you for the response and . I  don’t mind the personal contact, so long as appropriate courtesies are observed.

That’s what courtesy copies are for, baby. Have a nice day. Ludvig Prinn Worker of Miracles

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Without apology for who you are, do you recognize the priveleges that are granted socially and institutionally to some based solely on their race, gender, sex, etc? So, you’re saying that women and black people should apologize for getting free college tuitions, preferential hiring status (Three Up), and the privelege of suing anyone at all for discrimination for no reason, with a good chance of winning? Huh? No not at all-apology is not a part of my argument, however, I do believe that those who by birth in a society are priveledged (in the U.S this would   be white males of European descent) have a responsibility to recognize the unearned priveledges they’ve been given within that society, the effects and injustices such unearned priveledges create and be willing to work towards such a society where opportunities are based on merit. I wouldn’t go so far as saying that women and minorities should "apologize" for those priveleges granted to them for their race or gender (gender and sex ARE the same thing…), but I really think we’ve grown beyond the point where we need to believe that they are SO pathetic that they NEED help just to make a living. We all grow up. This is not a case of us vs, them, as your use of language would suggest.  Growth and maturity require awareness, and regardless of the maturity of a few person’s, the state of our social institutions would seem to suggest that as a whole (US society in this case) is still rather infantile.  A big part of the problem, I think is that for many priveledged folks, this issue is "someone elses problem" and they do not consider the subtle aspects of racist behavior, for example, that permeates their culture and thus, their own behavior. Sorry-Yes Sex and gender are considered equivalent-I meant to write sexual preference and do you feel that those so priveledged, have an obligation to undue the injustices such priveledges(that are not based in merit) create? No, women and minorities do not need to "undue" the injustices created by their preferential status. We can safely stop giving handouts to people based solely on race or gender now. We’ve levelled the playing field considerably. No offense meant here-I would like to offer the observation that the fact that you use "we" as distinct from women and minorities and talk about "levelling the playing field suggest that you may yourself be operating from the mindset of white priviledge. Any questions? Not really, however, I would like to thank you for the response and .  I  don’t mind the personal contact, so long as appropriate courtesies are observed. Peace to you- Peredur

Response:

and do you feel that those so priveledged, have an obligation to undue the injustices such priveledges(that are not based in merit) create?

The two are orthogonal. Everyone has an obligation to undo injustice. —

Response:

In Washington State, minority businesses are given preference over other businesses when contracts are handed out, even if the bid is higher than a non-minority business.

Heh. Not any more. Ludvig Prinn Worker of Miracles

Response:

Umm I think I remember voting on this particular subject ( AA ). AA was put to the ballet to see if it could be removed from the books or however you want to put it. The Affirmative Action law lost out!! The majority of the people voted to get rid of it. I have not heard of any supreme court action stopping this action either. If my memory serves this was put to the vote over two yrs. ago… So the AA law is long gone. ( so if you hear those excuses it is time to sue for discrimination ) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [....deletia....] Lee-    I don’t disagree with you, but I am curious.  Without apology for who you are, do you recognize the priveleges that are granted socially and institutionally  to some based solely on their race, gender, sex, etc? and do you feel that those so priveledged, have an obligation to undue the injustices such priveledges(that are not based in merit) create? Peredur, just what in the nine billion names of the God and Goddess are you talking about? White males have become second class citizens as far as the government is concerned. When a white male is discriminated against, something which happens more and more often curtousy of AA and EEOC regulations, they are told, "Sorry but you are SOL." Consider the following hypothetical scenarios: You have worked at your company for several years; you finished your Masters Degree in your spare time at night school. You come up for promotion, you have it in the bag, and you’ve got experience, education and seniority. You’re called into your boss’ office and he tells you that you are not getting the promotion you worked so hard to get. It is being given to a minority employee who not only has less experience and seniority, but also doesn’t have the educational background in order to keep its government contracts it had to promote a minority. You are a police officer who has been with your city’s police force for eight years. You take your Sergeants examination and score number 5 out of 50 candidates who took the test. You’re a shoe in fore one of the five Sergeant positions opening up in your city. You don’t get the promotion. In order to maintain federal funding a minority officer who ranked 27th in testing and only has 5 years experience is promoted to Sergeant over you. You are a white college student working your way through college because your parents earned to much for you to earn a Pell grant but do not have enough to pay for your college so you are going in debt up to your armpits in Student loans. You have finally reach your last year of college and you have one required course to go, you go up to the registration desk to sign up for the course and told you can not register for the course even though there are ten empty slots. When you ask why, you are told those slots are reserved for minority students, who might want to take the course. By now you realize that these are not hypothetical situations. Similar situations are being played out or have played out across the country in the name of Affirmative Action (AA). AA grew out of the Civil Rights movements of the 1960’s in an effort to end racial discrimination in the work place by the federal government. What it was meant to be and what it has become are two different things. Affirmative Action has become nothing more than federally mandated discrimination on the basis of race or sex. America’s official racial categories were created by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) in 1977 and laid out in a document named Statistical Directive 15. Hundreds of federal agencies use these classifications when drafting regulations and laws that treat Americans according to their racial makeup. Currently there are five official, government-approved racial classifications: white, black, American Indian/Eskimo, Asian/Pacific Islander, and Hispanic. At this time the OMB over the last three years has been considering adding the classifications: Hawaiian, multiracial, Middle Easterner, Arab American, six different kinds of Latino, "other," Creole, and Germanic. Libertarian Party Chairman Steve Dasbach stated, "Various ethnic groups are vigorously lobbying to have their category added to the official list of races — BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY’LL HIT THE FINANCIAL JACKPOT IF THEY BECOME A PROTECTED CLASS UNDER ANTI-DISCRIMNATION LAWS. [Emphasis added]" For example, the Federal Communications Commission awards 25% "bidding credits" to minority-owned companies, so a member of a government-approved minority would pay, for example, $750,000 for a $1 million radio station license. In Washington State, minority businesses are given preference over other businesses when contracts are handed out, even if the bid is higher than a non-minority business. Other federal agencies use the racial data to arrange low-interest loans, to enforce quotas for college admissions — even to decide whom to hire and fire. As you can see, AA is no longer about ending discrimination but about how big of the pie minority special interest groups can get. In my humble opinion, AA hurts minorities more than it helps them. Martin Luther King said in his famous "I Have a Dream" speech, "I have a dream, that one day my four little children will be judged, not by the color of their skin, but on the basis of their character." I think that Mr. King’s dream has become a nightmare. Because AA in effect says, if you are a minority you have no chance of getting a job, promotion, going to college, or owning your own business because of the color of your skin with out the help of the government. Some of you who are reading this are now thinking, "I’ve got you pegged now Mr. Veca, you’re some angry white male." And you would be right, up to a point. You would be right that I am a white male, and I am angry. But, what I am angry about is the fact minorities are getting short changed, they have no way of knowing if they got a job on the basis of merit or because of their skin color. Interesting dilemma, in an effort to stamp out discrimination, the federal government has enacted a system similar to South Africa’s during Apartheid. And, just like South Africa during Apartheid Americans can be rejected for a home loan, lose the chance to attend the college of their choice, or even get fired from their job, depending on their racial classification. I know of one case where a man was unjustly fired from his job. He called the Employment Security Office to see what his recourse was. He was told there was nothing they could do because he was not a member of a [officially sanctioned] minority. The federal government publishes recommendations of what it feels is a "proper" racial mix in private enterprise. These "recommendations" become de facto quotas and woe to any business that doesn’t meet those "recommendations". Several years ago in Illinois, the white owner of a small lamp manufacturing company denied a black woman employment because she didn’t have the qualifications required for the job. She in turn filed suite against the owner saying she was not hired on the basis of her race with the State Employment Office. The state forced the owner to pay the woman for work she never does. Was the owner guilty of racial discrimination? The answer is no. You see the state of Illinois never bother to investigate the business, if they had they would have found out that 75% of the employees were minorities. During an interview with CBS 60 Minutes, the head of the Illinois State Employment Office stated that he felt that the woman was discriminated against on the basis of race, even though there was ample evidence to the contrary. In the end, and several thousand taxpayers and business owners dollars latter the Illinois State Supreme Court ruled in favor of the business owner on the basis that there was no evidence that suggested the woman was not hired on the basis of race. But there was an additional cost, it was in the form of employees that were laid off because the cost of the court cases was eating into the business, contracts that were lost because the business was not able to keep up with demand losing even more money. All because of enforcement of a "recommended racial mix" in the work place that wasn’t even adequately investigate. In the end we as a American citizens are going to have to decide whether or not we are going to continue to let the government continue a policy of sanctioned discrimination or unite as one nation, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Copyright

Filed under: Lobbying

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