US warns citizens against travel to Indonesia

Question:

Nations, like Japan, who wage economic wars against the US take over profitable and strategic industries. The fired American workers have jobs, but the new ones pay less and lack benefits or security. Trade deficits are not the only factor, but generally, nations like Japan that run huge surplusses get richer while their victims, like the US, grow weaker. I would not believe everything you hear in grad school. If the Japanese listened to Anglo-American economists, they would still be driving Fords. Tom

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I went to Sumatra during the Gulf War and was treated well. I would go to Indonesia now, State Dept. warning or not. Please keep in mind that we know our own country best and you do not have to warn an American to avoid dicey neighborhoods in Chicago. However, most Americans are so ignorant of the world that they need some kind of guidance when they go abroad. The State Dept. errs on the side of caution. Tom in Chicago Not to mention many other foreign offices around the world — for example, the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office offers advice to travellers on most (all?) countries and regions, from health to safety, etc.

Their website has up-to-date and generally quite sensible information; I would tend to prefer their advice to the US State Dept’s, which tends to be absurbly over-cautious. The State Dept has to be careful not to say something that could be misconstrued by a US citizen who had never been out of the US before; the FCO does not seem to be quite so idiot-freindly. JimC Wouldn’t be surprised if the Finnish equivalent did the same, has – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -anyone ever rung them to find out? Stephanie M in Manchester

Response:

It is a great economy if you own assets. If you work for a living it stinks. Real wages continue to decline. People are working harder and harder for less. The trade deficit will hit 300 billion next year, wiping out more and more of the middle class.

You wrote "The economy is not so good here" implying that it was better somewhere else. Real wages are moving in a well-established cycle. They rise, they fall. Now they are on a slow fall from a historic high. This is not news, and it is not cause for alarm. Last but not least, after many years of studying graduate level economics, it’s still not clear to me how a rising trade deficit ‘wipes out’ the middle class. Can you elaborate? miguel

Response:

Tom, I think that you obviously are not very representative of the States, if you are drinking Swedish Beer and planning a trip to Bangladesh. Out of interest, what beer is it?

:To Petrus: : Helsinki does rock in summer. I have taken mostly-Fin ferries and :mostly Sweish ferries, and the Finnish ones are something. I recall :approaching Helsnki from Tallinn in 1983 and the drunks all got on deck :and sang Finnish songs in basso profundo as we entered the harbor. : The Swedes are nice too. : :Tom (Drinking a Swedish beer at 4 AM and planning a trip to Bangla Desh… :

Response:

Much of the world has already "changed itself to mimic the US". Every time I return to a place the most certain constant is that American cultural influence has increased. If the US does it, the rest of the world imitates it, good or bad. The music, the jeans, the lingo, the Bull t-shirts, the "cuisine", you name it, is spreading all over the globe. Tom in Chicago

Response:

The economy is not so good here, but it is very free, and people who want to work can own their own home, business, etc., and be free in their personal lives.

Huh? You are talking about the United States? If the economy here isn’t good enough for you, then you’re on the wrong planet. It doesn’t get much better than this. miguel

Response:

Stefanie: As you the say, the Foreign Office also provides fine advice. I have been told that only the UK and the US offer this comprehensive service, but I am not sure. I doubt Finland does. It had 4 or 5 million people, and lacks the resources to have a "desk" giving out CIA-type intelligence for every nation in the world. Tom in Chicago

Response:

To Miguel (Yale.edu): It is a great economy if you own assets. If you work for a living it stinks. Real wages continue to decline. People are working harder and harder for less. The trade deficit will hit 300 billion next year, wiping out more and more of the middle class. Tom in Chicago

Response:

The FCO has a web-site where it posts quite up-to-date and usually fairly sensible information; generally more sensible that US State Dept info — the US does err heavily on the side of caution. I was in Malawi during the air part of the Gulf War, working short-term for a US agency. They said no travel; UK was saying no problem except in the Gulf itself. Luckily, I already had my ticket and was not a govt employee, just on contract — so when the assignment was up, I just went home. The Federal civil servants on the same job had to wait for waivers from Washington before they could go home. Jim C

Response:

Tom, what about 3 strikes and you out???? Even when the crime is not violent.

:Two years ago the State Dept announced that we should defer all non- :essential travel to Pakistan. I called the Pakistan Airline, PIA, and :they said don’t go. (They would lose business if I didn’t). I then :called the Pakistan desk at the State Dept. All people in the world, :including those in Finland, can use this service for free. The guy spent :quite a bit of time explaining the dangerous, MQM-controlled afreas of :Karachi to avoid, and told me it would be OK to go if I avoided them. He :was right and PIA was wrong. We had a great time. : Concerning blacks in prison, we have a terrible problem with gangs and :drugs and violence in the poorest black neighborhoods in our cities. The :alternative to incarceration of the violent-admittedly a small percentage f the black community-is to let the violent continue their killing. The :black community is bitterly divided over a solution to this problem, but :I don’t think freeing the convicted felons is the way to solve it. : The economy is not so good here, but it is very free, and people who :want to work can own their own home, business, etc., and be free in their :personal lives. That is why people come here. I would have been killed :long ago for the things I say about my own government if I lived in many :countries in the world, but the secret police in the US let this go. The :US is the most free country in the world, and the best. : Helsinki is vastly neglected as a charming city of the north. We :spent last weekend in Copenhagen, another gem. Tom in Chicago :

Response:

To Petrus: Helsinki does rock in summer. I have taken mostly-Fin ferries and mostly Sweish ferries, and the Finnish ones are something. I recall approaching Helsnki from Tallinn in 1983 and the drunks all got on deck and sang Finnish songs in basso profundo as we entered the harbor. The Swedes are nice too. Tom (Drinking a Swedish beer at 4 AM and planning a trip to Bangla Desh… )

Response:

I went to Sumatra during the Gulf War and was treated well. I would go to Indonesia now, State Dept. warning or not. Please keep in mind that we know our own country best and you do not have to warn an American to avoid dicey neighborhoods in Chicago. However, most Americans are so ignorant of the world that they need some kind of guidance when they go abroad. The State Dept. errs on the side of caution. Tom in Chicago

Not to mention many other foreign offices around the world — for example, the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office offers advice to travellers on most (all?) countries and regions, from health to safety, etc. Wouldn’t be surprised if the Finnish equivalent did the same, has anyone ever rung them to find out? Stephanie M in Manchester

Response:

I think Tom you are kidding yourself when you say: "Billions want to come over to live there." Surely if that was the case we would have done that, and if not possible than we would have changes our lives to mimic the Americans. I live in London and have travelled widely in Asia and Europe, the only people I know who want to go and live in the States are mainly the poor and uneducated.The who wanted to and are eligible have already left. Living hundreds of millions who are happy living in Europe. To the us here, freedom of speech is not what makes a country great. It is also about living with each other, respecting each other, whilst caring about the greater good of humanity. Even at the expense of economic loss!!

:I went to Sumatra during the Gulf War and was treated well. I would go :to Indonesia now, State Dept. warning or not. Please keep in mind that :we know our own country best and you do not have to warn an American to :avoid dicey neighborhoods in Chicago. However, most Americans are so :ignorant of the world that they need some kind of guidance when they go :abroad. The State Dept. errs on the side of caution. : :Tom in Chicago :

Response:

Two years ago the State Dept announced that we should defer all non- essential travel to Pakistan. I called the Pakistan Airline, PIA, and they said don’t go. (They would lose business if I didn’t). I then called the Pakistan desk at the State Dept. All people in the world, including those in Finland, can use this service for free. The guy spent quite a bit of time explaining the dangerous, MQM-controlled afreas of Karachi to avoid, and told me it would be OK to go if I avoided them. He was right and PIA was wrong. We had a great time. Concerning blacks in prison, we have a terrible problem with gangs and drugs and violence in the poorest black neighborhoods in our cities. The alternative to incarceration of the violent-admittedly a small percentage of the black community-is to let the violent continue their killing. The black community is bitterly divided over a solution to this problem, but I don’t think freeing the convicted felons is the way to solve it. The economy is not so good here, but it is very free, and people who want to work can own their own home, business, etc., and be free in their personal lives. That is why people come here. I would have been killed long ago for the things I say about my own government if I lived in many countries in the world, but the secret police in the US let this go. The US is the most free country in the world, and the best. Helsinki is vastly neglected as a charming city of the north. We spent last weekend in Copenhagen, another gem. Tom in Chicago

Response:

Do you really think the US has the worst human rights record in the world?

Hmm, not really, there are countries which are worse (Myanmar, Cuba, Iraq,…). But the situation in US is IMHO so bad that the criticism of other countries human rights policies by the US goverment is highly hypocritical, more so when attention paid to its own problems is minimal. AFAIK the recent shocking Amnesty international report generated mostly "how will the powers that be reply to this" type of reaction in the US media. Facts including 3400 person death row consisting mostly of poor and/or black people, *one third* of young black males being in prison, probabition or parole, 14% of them (adults) without right to vote due to felonies, highest incarceration rate in the world, people being shot in their homes in "oops, wrong address, the remote looked like a gun" drug raids (recently a mother was shot in front of her small daughter, no guns were found), homes being confiscated for one cannabis joint, brutal torture of accused in courtrooms with an electric belt inducing extreme pain solely for disrespectful comments (no threatening physical action, the LA county (?) is being sued under international law against torture, charges were first dropped as they refused to recognise international law) etc etc do make US one of the worst human rights violators in the world. If that is true why do billions of people want to come here, including Africans?

The economy’s doing great! (Who has visited 156 countries safely. Only nasty customs experience was from a violent thug customs inspector in Helsinki.

I’m sorry about that! Customs are funny, even though I look very conspicuous (i.e. because of that) I’ve never been searched in any customs (have visited about a third of your countries though, too tired to count now). Cuba was the closest, they very seriously told me they were going to search all my bags and took me to a little room and asked me to fill out a form. After they learned I was a physicist one officer told about his friend studying at the university and I expressed great interest in learning about their achievements in the physics sector, mentioning their advanced biotech industry . He told me to have a nice trip without a single look at my bags. (Finland is still a great place to visit)

Yeah it’s amazing, in addition to the nature Helsinki in summer is an absolutely great city with superb nightlife, it’s much better than Stockholm. Cheers, Petrus —

Response:

:To Petrus: : : Do you really think the US has the worst human rights record in the :world? If that is true why do billions of people want to come here, :including Africans? Do they really go to all that trouble to be :persecuted? : : I take the State Department’s warnings with a grain of salt too, but :it is not corrupt. They don’t want to issue these warnings because they :know it hurts the tourism industry in the country of the warning. or that it is worried about being sued or criticised for not warning it’s nationals adequately!! : :Tom in Chicago : Who has visited 156 countries safely. Only nasty customs experience was :from a violent thug customs inspector in Helsinki. (Finland is still a :great place to visit) You haven’t had the interrogation from the US immigration, when you’re the alien on a holiday. :

Response:

Well, one thing is true, the "majority" (not all) of the people from one place tend to have a standardized view of things (whatever that view is and independent of it being right or wrong). This is how and why some cultures create stereotypes about other cultures. I got from the internet and article written by a citizen of the USA which explain why USAns are so much misunderstood around the word. Notice that I say USAn and not American, as Americans are also Argentinans, Canadians, Mexicans, etc. (this is one topic addressed in the article). For those interested, the author is Ralph Rewes and the tile is "America" Misunderstood. It is very interesting readying.

Response:

Are we talking bigoted ranting when we dare to talk about the view from the other side of the pond?? . I remember it was only a few years ago that foreigners were being targeted in Florida. Okay it is a different kind of targeting, "armed robbery and possibly murder" as opposed to the rioting that happened in Jakarta. When you make comparison, looking globally make a different impression. Would I be ignorant to say that in Jakarta the numbers killed in a city of millions is comparable to the crime stats for New York or Chicago. Yet I don’t hear state dept. warnings about travelling in those cities. Was there a international warning issued by the State Dept., when the riots broke out in LA?? Here you have a prime example where you could Substitute Koreans for foreigners/Chinese. we don’t say that "Americans" are not just one multi-headed,ignorant, brutal monster. " What we say is that most Americans think the world revolves around the Good Ole’ US of A, and therefore tend to be ignorant of the world. Tom or nor you are a fair representation of your country. But then neither am I of mine (UK). Neither is the guy who complains that his wife handbag was snatched in a Bangkok Street. (perhaps he is the one for whom the State dept. warnings are issued for) The main point in your reply which I concur with is that you have to weigh up the risks before venturing out. I, for the moment would not take the risk this week of flying into Jakarta, especially when you have govt. hired thugs going around in lorries with clubs looking for targets, whilst the army and police just stand there. Other parts of Indonesia I would not hesitate in going, though I would be weary in the big cities like Medan, Jogya, Solo, Surabaya…. You see once is enough. I was caught in the Thai one, few years back, when the army started firing on anyone and everyone. (my fault for venturing out into the streets, where the demos were.) By the way, Arttradch if we our travel paths ever crossed, I would be happy to discuss them with you. By the way,

:C’mon! You folks can’t be serious! "Americans" are not just one multi-headed, :ignorant, brutal monster. As Tom who’s travelled to 156 countries can attest :to, some are quite well-travelled. This American has been to Indonesia more :than 20 times, does business there and has good friends who are like family :there who I am in constant communication with. What they are saying . . . :along with Indonesia-language newsreports from university profs that I get by :e-mail . . . is that it IS dangerous . . . at least in Jakarta. I live in the :large "scary" city of Chicago, and have lived in the large "scary" city of New :York . . . without having suffered so much as a mugging. . . which is a far :cry from the incident last May, when a friend was right behind those who got :pulled out of a cars on the way into Jakarta, just for being foreigners (no :American passport required!) and beaten in the street. I’m going to Indonesia :in Dec. anyway, but any person . . . regardless of nationality . . . should :weigh the risks if you’re going to Jakarta. This is not some imperialistic :decree from the State Dept. . . . this is the local (Indonesian) scoop. Give :all this ranting and hatred a rest. I’m certain that if people were meeting in :person, or had to disclose true identities, there wouldn’t be all the bigoted

Response:

To Petrus: Do you really think the US has the worst human rights record in the world? If that is true why do billions of people want to come here, including Africans? Do they really go to all that trouble to be persecuted? I take the State Department’s warnings with a grain of salt too, but it is not corrupt. They don’t want to issue these warnings because they know it hurts the tourism industry in the country of the warning. Tom in Chicago (Who has visited 156 countries safely. Only nasty customs experience was from a violent thug customs inspector in Helsinki. (Finland is still a great place to visit)

Response:

Perhaps this explains some of the inane questions(is Sukumit Road safe?) that arise from the States. The difficulty in "conceptualising" anything than your own country. Americans until they have managed to step out of their own country, often portray a negative image. I wonder if this due to the arrogance of the Americans, lack of interest in the world outside of the States or just from a lack of adequate foreign news coverage in their newspapers? The funny thing is that when it comes to crime, I find it difficult to understand the level of brutality that arises in the crimes in the States.

: :It is very difficult for us americans to conceptualize anything other than our wn country. As Petrus obvserved, large parts of the US are somewhat risky for :travelers. Most americans assume the rest of the world is the same. That is why :we ask silly questions like "Is Sukumvit road safe?" An american is thinking :that any large urban street must pass through an area which is unsafe for :travelers. For exapmle, if you were visiting San Francisco and asked "Is Market :street safe" most people would tell you "Yes, but avoid the area around 6th :street at night". : :When you have never been anywhere else, you think it is the same everywhere. : :As for the state department warnings, this i can not explain. Maybe some fear f law suits. : elawang Araw etroit, MI

Response:

C’mon! You folks can’t be serious! "Americans" are not just one multi-headed, ignorant, brutal monster. As Tom who’s travelled to 156 countries can attest to, some are quite well-travelled. This American has been to Indonesia more than 20 times, does business there and has good friends who are like family there who I am in constant communication with. What they are saying . . . along with Indonesia-language newsreports from university profs that I get by e-mail . . . is that it IS dangerous . . . at least in Jakarta. I live in the large "scary" city of Chicago, and have lived in the large "scary" city of New York . . . without having suffered so much as a mugging. . . which is a far cry from the incident last May, when a friend was right behind those who got pulled out of a cars on the way into Jakarta, just for being foreigners (no American passport required!) and beaten in the street. I’m going to Indonesia in Dec. anyway, but any person . . . regardless of nationality . . . should weigh the risks if you’re going to Jakarta. This is not some imperialistic decree from the State Dept. . . . this is the local (Indonesian) scoop. Give all this ranting and hatred a rest. I’m certain that if people were meeting in person, or had to disclose true identities, there wouldn’t be all the bigoted

Response:

It is very difficult for us americans to conceptualize anything other than our own country. As Petrus obvserved, large parts of the US are somewhat risky for travelers. Most americans assume the rest of the world is the same. That is why we ask silly questions like "Is Sukumvit road safe?" An american is thinking that any large urban street must pass through an area which is unsafe for travelers. For exapmle, if you were visiting San Francisco and asked "Is Market street safe" most people would tell you "Yes, but avoid the area around 6th street at night". When you have never been anywhere else, you think it is the same everywhere. As for the state department warnings, this i can not explain. Maybe some fear of law suits. Delawang Araw Detroit, MI

Response:

Right on! Americans are ridiculous! If they’d apply same criteria of warnings to their own country they’d all be out from there! It’s similar to being very, very angry at developing countries’ human rights violations while having the worst human rights violations themselves (Which country has the highest incarceration rate? In which country 14% of black males do not have the right to vote? etc etc). —

Response:

US warns citizens against travel to Indonesia WASHINGTON, Nov 14 (AFP) – The US State Department on Saturday warned Americans against travel to Indonesia, where rioting and a crackdown on demonstrators in the capital, Jakarta, have killed at least 13 people. "The political and economic situation remains unsettled … The Department of State encourages all American citizens to defer non-essential travel to the city of Jakarta," it said in a statement. "Americans in all parts of Indonesia should continue to avoid crowds and disturbances and exercise prudence and caution," the statement said, adding, however, that the tourist destination of Bali had not been affected by the unrest. In Jakarta, where Indonesian President B.J. Habibie ordered a military crackdown after thousands rampaged, the State Department specifically urged Americans to avoid travelling by taxi due to the threat of robbery and two incidents in which foreigners have been killed after entering cabs. Demonstrations calling for parliamentary and electoral reform have spread to at least eight other cities, including Bandung, Yogyakarta, Semarang, Padang and Surabaya, according to local reports.

Response:

Filed under: Human Rights

XHTML: You can use these tags: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>

TrackBack URL | RSS feed for comments on this post.

Activism Change

Learn, read, react :: Activism