Activism Change

Understanding why, Last OT WTC post

Question:

Yes, and definitely avoid Sky news! Andy

Response:

These people are where Christianity was 700 years ago. Anyone non-Christian was heretic and was subject to being executed.  The Islamic Taliban is executing people today for preaching Christianity…there is not much to understand in the objectives of the militant Islamic.

Are you talking about the Spanish Inquisition, or the Crusades, or some other Christian campaign of mass murder?  Let’s not forget the similar campaigns against tens of thousands (when the worlds total population was in the low millions) that is so well chronicled in the Old Testament, committed by the Jews just a thousand or so years before that. What is it with religions that some how manage to survive 1000-1500 years?  Any chance that the Hindus, Buddhists, Confusionists, et.al., have a similar history of following their god’s orders into mass annihilation of infidels once they have "matured" a millenium or so? — Alan Newman

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I see on the news that Pakistan almost trampled several countries beating a path to America’s doorstep to welcome US troops and intelligence officers onto their soil.  As in "Please don’t bomb us, we will co-operate". — I’d change your news station if I were you…..or at least question the nonsense that they’re spouting. Pakistan has, unfortunately, become one of the untouchables. No sane leader/s would contemplate anything more than economic sanctions against a nuclear power. Andy, London.

Andrew, I’d assume the characterization of Pakistan’s action is the author’s and not the news reporters. Pakistan took 4 days to publicly cooperate which is not exactly "beating a path." One must also keep in mind that the leaders of Pakistan are putting their own lives at risk since there is a significant number of sympathizers and terrorist supporters in Pakistan.

Response:

 I see on the news that Pakistan almost trampled several countries beating a path to America’s doorstep to welcome US troops and intelligence officers onto their soil.  As in "Please don’t bomb us, we will co-operate".

– I’d change your news station if I were you…..or at least question the nonsense that they’re spouting. Pakistan has, unfortunately, become one of the untouchables. No sane leader/s would contemplate anything more than economic sanctions against a nuclear power. Andy, London.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If there had been serious condemnation of the terrorists acts by the Arab political and theologic leadership and spontaneous outpourings of grief by the common people over how their brethern could do such a thing, I might agree with you.  Instead we see dancing in the streets and jubilant celebration with the tacit support of the political leadership.  If we saw arrests and prosecution of terrorist cells – Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, et al –  by Arab authorities, I might agree with you.  But we see no such thing.  If we saw declarations of "fatwah" by Islamic theological leaders against the perpetrators of acts far more heinous than the innocent writings of Salmon Rushdie, I might agree with you.  If we saw direct intervention by both secular and theologic Arab leaders to prevent the Taliban and their ilk from systematically destroying the freedoms of their people and the legacy of civilization in their country I might agree with you.  But we do not, we hear only silence.  I must conclude that the protestations of Arabic and Islamic leaders that the perpetrators of this act are rogues not representing the Arab or Islamic mainstream are lies offered to try to shape and confuse public reaction, an attempt to redirect retaliation away from themselves, lies motivated purely by the desire for self preservation rather than shedding light upon the truth.  One can say "We are not responsible" all they want, but until they first take some positive actions to deliver up the perpetrators to justice, second root out and neutralize all their terrorist groups no matter where in the world they operate, and third, to stop fanning the fires of hatred against Israel and its allies in order to further their own political ambitions and preserve their power base and instead begin to teach their populations to accept and recognize the inherent justice of the status quo of Israel’s current position, their protestations will ring hollow. Lisa – I hear what you are saying but there is no excuse for terrorist activities against civilians no matter what reasoning one might have.  I am sure you were not making your points in order to support any of these activities or the reactions of some of the Islamic radicals so please don’t think I am attacking anything you are saying. To all that might read this – Please do not think that the terrorists of the world are Islamic fundamentalists because they are not fundamental at all in their beliefs and actions.  Islamic teachings do not support these actions in any way.  These people are RADICALS and we can not condemn an entire peoples based upon the action of these few. I am done. — Sam Anderson I promise this will be my very last OT post about recent events! I think that anyone who has more than a cursory knowlege of current global politics knows that the Israel/Palestinian situation is a part of why suicide bombers are targetting the US.  Certainly several Palestinian organizations are under the Al Queda umbrella. I thought I had a fair knowledge of the history of Palestine and Israel, but it turns out to be a lot messier than I thought, and the Palestinians have been treated very shabbily since the end of the Ottoman Turk empire at the conclusion of WWI. The purpose of this post is to point you to a UN study on the history of Palestine and Israel in this century.  For those who don’t know the prior history of the area, basically the Jewish people lived there until the diaspora, approx 2000 years ago.  For most of the time between then and the beginning of the 20th century, Palestine was basically ruled by this or that other country, notably the Ottoman Turkish empire which ruled Palestine for over 400 years, up to the end of the 19th century.  The Ottoman empire was of course dismantled after they made a poor choice of side to take in WWI.  And that brings us up to the time this study covers. I post this because the more you know, the more informed decision you can make.  This report has completely altered my perceptions and opinions about the Israeli/Palestinian situation.  The Palestinians have good reason to be mad, primarily at the British actually, but to a lesser extent the US. Read it at: http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/qpal/dpr/DPR_pp_1.htm My last OT WTC Post, I really do promise!  I don’t want to discuss this report and am not encouraging discussion of it.  Just please read it. Lisa

I posted earlier in another thread about the candlelight vigil held in Tehran Wed. night.  That was spontaneous.  Nd Arafat’s condemnation of the actions in New York, while possibly fueled by a desire to undo the public relations disaster germinated by the residents of Palestine, seemed to be sincere.  And such declarations of fatwah have been forthcoming from Islamic leaders outside the middle east. As far as intervention, it isn’t realistic to expect it so soon, notice that you have seen precious little but words from the west, too, even from the US.  It is too early. Skip —   Shadowcatcher Imagery  http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

Response:

If there had been serious condemnation of the terrorists acts by the Arab political and theologic leadership and spontaneous outpourings of grief by the common people over how their brethern could do such a thing, I might agree with you.  Instead we see dancing in the streets and jubilant celebration with the tacit support of the political leadership.

Steve,  relatively speaking, there was very little dancing in the streets. And, in fact, Arafat and other Palestinian leaders have condemned the attacks.  They went as far as saying that there was a small, ignorant, percentage of people who have jubilated at this event, but, they do not represent their government’s point of view. If we saw arrests and prosecution of terrorist cells – Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, et al –  by Arab authorities, I might agree with you.  But we see no such thing.

I agree that Arab leaders could be doing a lot more to rid themselves of terrorist groups.  This gets into very slippery ground where lay people like you and me really have no idea what’s going on in the mind’s of these leaders.  There is a lot of fear and a lot at stake in these countries for both the Arabs and the western alliances.  If we saw declarations of "fatwah" by Islamic theological – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – leaders against the perpetrators of acts far more heinous than the innocent writings of Salmon Rushdie, I might agree with you.  If we saw direct intervention by both secular and theologic Arab leaders to prevent the Taliban and their ilk from systematically destroying the freedoms of their people and the legacy of civilization in their country I might agree with you.  But we do not, we hear only silence.  I must conclude that the protestations of Arabic and Islamic leaders that the perpetrators of this act are rogues not representing the Arab or Islamic mainstream are lies offered to try to shape and confuse public reaction, an attempt to redirect retaliation away from themselves, lies motivated purely by the desire for self preservation rather than shedding light upon the truth.  One can say "We are not responsible" all they want, but until they first take some positive actions to deliver up the perpetrators to justice, second root out and neutralize all their terrorist groups no matter where in the world they operate, and third, to stop fanning the fires of hatred against Israel and its allies in order to further their own political ambitions and preserve their power base and instead begin to teach their populations to accept and recognize the inherent justice of the status quo of Israel’s current position, their protestations will ring hollow.

I agree with everything you are saying but it is much more complicated than that.  Politics is not an altruistic activity that has the sole good of the people at it’s heart.  There is a fundamental problem with the way people think.  It comes from centuries of brainwashing and experience, on both sides, not just Arabs.  The reason no solutions have come forth is because no solutions are possible in the context of the way the world is setup. This is the fundamental problem.  All that can happen is reaction.  All that can happen is negotiation.  Someone always loses, always!  The problem is in human consciousness itself.  The world is a reflection of it, not the other way around.  When the human being changes, the world will change.  Will this ever happen?  I doubt it.  So, the killing continues…… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lisa – I hear what you are saying but there is no excuse for terrorist activities against civilians no matter what reasoning one might have.  I am sure you were not making your points in order to support any of these activities or the reactions of some of the Islamic radicals so please don’t think I am attacking anything you are saying. To all that might read this – Please do not think that the terrorists of the world are Islamic fundamentalists because they are not fundamental at all in their beliefs and actions.  Islamic teachings do not support these actions in any way.  These people are RADICALS and we can not condemn an entire peoples based upon the action of these few. I am done. — Sam Anderson I promise this will be my very last OT post about recent events! I think that anyone who has more than a cursory knowlege of current global politics knows that the Israel/Palestinian situation is a part of why suicide bombers are targetting the US.  Certainly several Palestinian organizations are under the Al Queda umbrella. I thought I had a fair knowledge of the history of Palestine and Israel, but it turns out to be a lot messier than I thought, and the Palestinians have been treated very shabbily since the end of the Ottoman Turk empire at the conclusion of WWI. The purpose of this post is to point you to a UN study on the history of Palestine and Israel in this century.  For those who don’t know the prior history of the area, basically the Jewish people lived there until the diaspora, approx 2000 years ago.  For most of the time between then and the beginning of the 20th century, Palestine was basically ruled by this or that other country, notably the Ottoman Turkish empire which ruled Palestine for over 400 years, up to the end of the 19th century.  The Ottoman empire was of course dismantled after they made a poor choice of side to take in WWI.  And that brings us up to the time this study covers. I post this because the more you know, the more informed decision you can make.  This report has completely altered my perceptions and opinions about the Israeli/Palestinian situation.  The Palestinians have good reason to be mad, primarily at the British actually, but to a lesser extent the US. Read it at: http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/qpal/dpr/DPR_pp_1.htm My last OT WTC Post, I really do promise!  I don’t want to discuss this report and am not encouraging discussion of it.  Just please read it. Lisa

Response:

If there had been serious condemnation of the terrorists acts by the Arab political and theologic leadership and spontaneous outpourings of grief by the common people over how their brethern could do such a thing, I might agree with you.  Instead we see dancing in the streets and jubilant celebration with the tacit support of the political leadership.  If we saw arrests and prosecution of terrorist cells – Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, et al –  by Arab authorities, I might agree with you.  But we see no such thing.  If we saw declarations of "fatwah" by Islamic theological leaders against the perpetrators of acts far more heinous than the innocent writings of Salmon Rushdie, I might agree with you.  If we saw direct intervention by both secular and theologic Arab leaders to prevent the Taliban and their ilk from systematically destroying the freedoms of their people and the legacy of civilization in their country I might agree with you.  But we do not, we hear only silence.  I must conclude that the protestations of Arabic and Islamic leaders that the perpetrators of this act are rogues not representing the Arab or Islamic mainstream are lies offered to try to shape and confuse public reaction, an attempt to redirect retaliation away from themselves, lies motivated purely by the desire for self preservation rather than shedding light upon the truth.  One can say "We are not responsible" all they want, but until they first take some positive actions to deliver up the perpetrators to justice, second root out and neutralize all their terrorist groups no matter where in the world they operate, and third, to stop fanning the fires of hatred against Israel and its allies in order to further their own political ambitions and preserve their power base and instead begin to teach their populations to accept and recognize the inherent justice of the status quo of Israel’s current position, their protestations will ring hollow.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lisa – I hear what you are saying but there is no excuse for terrorist activities against civilians no matter what reasoning one might have.  I am sure you were not making your points in order to support any of these activities or the reactions of some of the Islamic radicals so please don’t think I am attacking anything you are saying. To all that might read this – Please do not think that the terrorists of the world are Islamic fundamentalists because they are not fundamental at all in their beliefs and actions.  Islamic teachings do not support these actions in any way.  These people are RADICALS and we can not condemn an entire peoples based upon the action of these few. I am done. — Sam Anderson I promise this will be my very last OT post about recent events! I think that anyone who has more than a cursory knowlege of current global politics knows that the Israel/Palestinian situation is a part of why suicide bombers are targetting the US.  Certainly several Palestinian organizations are under the Al Queda umbrella. I thought I had a fair knowledge of the history of Palestine and Israel, but it turns out to be a lot messier than I thought, and the Palestinians have been treated very shabbily since the end of the Ottoman Turk empire at the conclusion of WWI. The purpose of this post is to point you to a UN study on the history of Palestine and Israel in this century.  For those who don’t know the prior history of the area, basically the Jewish people lived there until the diaspora, approx 2000 years ago.  For most of the time between then and the beginning of the 20th century, Palestine was basically ruled by this or that other country, notably the Ottoman Turkish empire which ruled Palestine for over 400 years, up to the end of the 19th century.  The Ottoman empire was of course dismantled after they made a poor choice of side to take in WWI.  And that brings us up to the time this study covers. I post this because the more you know, the more informed decision you can make.  This report has completely altered my perceptions and opinions about the Israeli/Palestinian situation.  The Palestinians have good reason to be mad, primarily at the British actually, but to a lesser extent the US. Read it at: http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/qpal/dpr/DPR_pp_1.htm My last OT WTC Post, I really do promise!  I don’t want to discuss this report and am not encouraging discussion of it.  Just please read it. Lisa

Response:

<snip To all that might read this – Please do not think that the terrorists of the world are Islamic fundamentalists because they are not fundamental at all in their beliefs and actions.  Islamic teachings do not support these actions in any way.  These people are RADICALS and we can not condemn an entire peoples based upon the action of these few.

How true.  Equally so, not all Christians who don’t believe in abortion go around killing doctors and blowing up clinics. It’s just a few extremists who do more harm than good to their cause. Bob Fowler

Response:

Try BBC radio broadcasts instead of TV.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – US citizens who are currently living in the UK are stating time and time again that the news coverage of foreign affairs back in the US is both scant and seemingly cursory when compared to what is broadcast in Europe and the UK. My experience has been exactly opposite. I got really tired of watching the same 30-minute tape regurgitated over and over again ad nausea. t.

Response:

US citizens who are currently living in the UK are stating time and time again that the news coverage of foreign affairs back in the US is both scant and seemingly cursory when compared to what is broadcast in Europe and the UK.

My experience has been exactly opposite. I got really tired of watching the same 30-minute tape regurgitated over and over again ad nausea. t.

Response:

These people are where Christianity was 700 years ago. Anyone non-Christian was heretic and was subject to being executed.  The Islamic Taliban is executing people today for preaching Christianity…there is not much to understand in the objectives of the militant Islamic.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t get that impression at all Colyn. It’s morally wrong to "blanket" and entire culture that is different than ours by saying "we’ll never understand how they think", without a least trying to understand just how they do think. For those who are  attempting to understand things, I heard some very good discussions on the CBC.  One panel member summed things up nicely. "First, we need to understand why the terrorist felt such an action was necessary.  Then we need to understand what made them THINK it was justifiable". And remember, you can try to understand another’s POV without supporting their actions in any way shape or form. Whoever orchestrated these events of terror has a script in mind.  Their planning didn’t end with the attack.  I’m sure they were thinking ahead to how America would respond and they may indeed be counting on a particular response to further prove their points (one being that the US is force of evil). Power is taken from the terrorists and given to the people when we have the wisdom to step outside the program and leave the terrorists’s script behind. I speculate that the attacks on American and Canadian Muslims are part of the terrorists’ script.  It is ammunition for them to prove that we are the monsters they think we are.  Such random acts of predjudice need to stop. I can’t help but think the terrorists wanted to see the US strike out blindly. I’m very pleased to see, that for the most part, decisions are being carefully considered.  And even while the American government is investigating and biding their time, those responsible are left in a terrible sort of limbo.  The Afgans are shaking in their boots and quite possibly questioning how they could have opened their doors to such a "guest" as a terrorist.  I see on the news that Pakistan almost trampled several countries beating a path to America’s doorstep to welcome US troops and intelligence officers onto their soil.  As in "Please don’t bomb us, we will co-operate". Even as America mourns it’s dead and cleans up, terrible phychological warefare is being waged not only on those responsible, but on all others who fear they may be responsible.  Each day that passes is like another day in hell for them and their fertile imaginations are working overtime on America’s behalf.   I’m sure the phychological warfare extends to cover all nations that support and shelter terrorists.  If you can, take some comfort in that while your leaders are taking care of business at home and carefully deciding how to proceed. May I say that for the most part the American response to this tragedy has been both honourable and worthy of praise.  Apart from the few who have responded out of grief and pain (and the few genuine butt-heads), the response has been very in-control and well thought out.  The truth-seekers are doing their jobs with an impeccable resolve and the miliary-minded people appear to be binding their time and not lashing out with only grief and anger as their guide. I find myself quite proud of my southern neighbours response to this test of their character and resolve. I offer my kudos, along with my thoughts and prayers. Griz in Canada

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m sorry if I gave you that impression.  My actual opinion is that there is nothing, absolutely nothing that can even begin to justify this sort of terrorism. Now, I don’t usually speak this bluntly in public, but let me lay it out for you. Knowledge is power, ignorance is weakness.  We are in a war that cannot be won by brute force alone.  We must be smart, fight smart and then we may be able to win, but not otherwise. Also, as Tony P pointed out, I seek to understand how and why anyone could hate us this much.  They obviously have some grievance, real or perceived. It’s a very messy situation, one that could have gone a different and much better way.  There are no simple answers for anyone who thinks about the situation and it’s history with clear eyes and mind. Lisa I get the impression from Lisa’s post above that she condones the events of Sept. 11, 2001.. Not very American in my opinion… Afterall, these were our neighbors and loved ones who died.. They were innocent Americans who had nothing to do with the above events in past history..

Lisa, you make a good point that seems to have been left out of all of the discussions of how to punish the perpetrators of this heinous attack.  And that is knowledge.  In Viet Nam, our forces paid lip service to winning the hearts and minds of the populace, but consistently failed to do so.  The primary reason for the hatred the rank and file feel for us is the lies their leaders have told them. Those leader have also perverted the basic tenets of their religion for their own purposes.  This struggle will not be over quickly.  We need to have the patience to try and re-educate the population, much like the efforts of Radio Free Europe.  ONce the people know the truth, support for their leaders will evaporate.  One reason the Soviets lost in Afghanistan, and we lost in Viet Nam, was that the countryside supported the locals.  One of the reasons the Allies won WWII was the support of the local citizens in the form of resistance movements.  Remember, the Soviets were back on their heels in the first days of the Nazi invasion, partly because the local Ukrainian populace was supporting the Nazis as liberators.  It was only later, when the nazis showed their true colors, that it changed. Skip —   Shadowcatcher Imagery  http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

Response:

I don’t get that impression at all Colyn. It’s morally wrong to "blanket" and entire culture that is different than ours by saying "we’ll never understand how they think", without a least trying to understand just how they do think. For those who are  attempting to understand things, I heard some very good discussions on the CBC.  One panel member summed things up nicely. "First, we need to understand why the terrorist felt such an action was necessary.  Then we need to understand what made them THINK it was justifiable". And remember, you can try to understand another’s POV without supporting their actions in any way shape or form. Whoever orchestrated these events of terror has a script in mind.  Their planning didn’t end with the attack.  I’m sure they were thinking ahead to how America would respond and they may indeed be counting on a particular response to further prove their points (one being that the US is force of evil). Power is taken from the terrorists and given to the people when we have the wisdom to step outside the program and leave the terrorists’s script behind. I speculate that the attacks on American and Canadian Muslims are part of the terrorists’ script.  It is ammunition for them to prove that we are the monsters they think we are.  Such random acts of predjudice need to stop.  I can’t help but think the terrorists wanted to see the US strike out blindly. I’m very pleased to see, that for the most part, decisions are being carefully considered.  And even while the American government is investigating and biding their time, those responsible are left in a terrible sort of limbo.  The Afgans are shaking in their boots and quite possibly questioning how they could have opened their doors to such a "guest" as a terrorist.  I see on the news that Pakistan almost trampled several countries beating a path to America’s doorstep to welcome US troops and intelligence officers onto their soil.  As in "Please don’t bomb us, we will co-operate". Even as America mourns it’s dead and cleans up, terrible phychological warefare is being waged not only on those responsible, but on all others who fear they may be responsible.  Each day that passes is like another day in hell for them and their fertile imaginations are working overtime on America’s behalf.   I’m sure the phychological warfare extends to cover all nations that support and shelter terrorists.  If you can, take some comfort in that while your leaders are taking care of business at home and carefully deciding how to proceed. May I say that for the most part the American response to this tragedy has been both honourable and worthy of praise.  Apart from the few who have responded out of grief and pain (and the few genuine butt-heads), the response has been very in-control and well thought out.  The truth-seekers are doing their jobs with an impeccable resolve and the miliary-minded people appear to be binding their time and not lashing out with only grief and anger as their guide. I find myself quite proud of my southern neighbours response to this test of their character and resolve. I offer my kudos, along with my thoughts and prayers. Griz in Canada

Response:

Donald – that footage has been criticised in the UK as yet another little piece of media propaganda. The ‘celebrators’ were unaware of what had happened when that piece of footage was shot. US citizens who are currently living in the UK are stating time and time again that the news coverage of foreign affairs back in the US is both scant and seemingly cursory when compared to what is broadcast in Europe and the UK. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m glad you helped me understand why Palestinians were celebrating in the streets over the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians in the US. Surely they were justified? Understanding why this happened may be a lot more simple. There are people in this world who are evil. There are people who crave power. And there are people who ar rich. When all three of those come together, they can do a lot of damage. One thing is for sure – when the US is going through a great time of suffering, Israel is sympathetic, and Palestinians are celebrating our deaths. Who do you think we should support in the future?

Response:

I’m sorry if I gave you that impression.  My actual opinion is that there is nothing, absolutely nothing that can even begin to justify this sort of terrorism.   Now, I don’t usually speak this bluntly in public, but let me lay it out for you. Knowledge is power, ignorance is weakness.  We are in a war that cannot be won by brute force alone.  We must be smart, fight smart and then we may be able to win, but not otherwise. Also, as Tony P pointed out, I seek to understand how and why anyone could hate us this much.  They obviously have some grievance, real or perceived. It’s a very messy situation, one that could have gone a different and much better way.  There are no simple answers for anyone who thinks about the situation and it’s history with clear eyes and mind. Lisa – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I get the impression from Lisa’s post above that she condones the events of Sept. 11, 2001.. Not very American in my opinion… Afterall, these were our neighbors and loved ones who died.. They were innocent Americans who had nothing to do with the above events in past history..

Response:

I recommend that everyone shut off their televisions, keep the newspapers out by the curb, grab your honey and go out for a nice meal.  Everyone "thinks" better with a full tummy. Leave room for desert.  And if you feel the urge, damn everyone else and go outside and have a smoke. ’nuff said. Mark — ICQ 621467 "Chris Maddock" wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In their minds, yes, else they wouldn’t have done so. However, they were a minority. Understanding why this happened may be a lot more simple. There are people in this world who are evil. There are people who crave power. And there are people who ar rich. When all three of those come together, they can do a lot of damage. One thing is for sure – when the US is going through a great time of suffering, Israel is sympathetic, and Palestinians are celebrating our deaths. Who do you think we should support in the future? Bear in mind, as I said above, that those Palestinians who were celebrating are a minority, probably those who feel hardest done by. When you look at the history of that region, can you realy blame them for their feelings? As far as they are concerned, any country that supports/has supported Israel has caused them great suffering. —  

Filed under: Human Rights

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