Activism Change

The Death of Courtship

Question:

"Kiven" <ki…@freeuk.com> wrote in message > > It’s been 8 years for me too. I’m 26. > Yeah me too.  I’ve written words to that effect since I was in school.  I used > to think that things would change though. They kind of did, but I don’t think I > was realising what the problem was back then.

Interesting–I too thought things would change.  And like you, they did kind of change, and there were opportunities for me with MOTOS (that’s what we’re talking about, right?) but I didn’t realize that I was expected to read between the lines and decipher some language known as Womanese….along with other things.   Oh, and I’m supposed to ‘be a man’ :-/ I’m 26 too, does this make us the > class of ‘93?

Actually, I’m Class of ‘92.  Hey, how’d that happen?:) > > Yeah, I don’t write everyday either.  I write most often when I’m > > down/depressed…whatever I happen to be thinking about…there’s no > > theoretical comtemplations or philosophicals ponderings or anything like > > that, really…just dumb shit. >  That’s exactly what I write.  I never read it though, unless I want to check > some fact or date, in which case I have to wade through pages of rubbish to find > it.

Yeah, I think reading past entries can be a mistake, especially if they’re dreary and twisted and full of melancholia…and most of mine are.  And yes, there’s rubbish, lots o’ rubbish

Response:

1womanscyberpersona <nowherewo…@nowhereland.com> wrote: : <step…@nomail.msu.edu> wrote in message

: news:9adl71$1op1$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu… :> a…@jkl.com <> wrote:

:> : On Sun, 01 Apr 2001 06:26:04 GMT, anon-29…@anon.twwells.com wrote: :> :> : Just :> : because I’m really a fat, wimpy, hate-filled piece of crap who doesn’t :> : know how to dress or talk to women doesn’t mean I view sex any :> : differently in terms of morality.  Often times I like to think it is :> : immoral, simply to make myself feel better.  Because I sure as hell :> : ain’t gettin’ any.  I will temporarily delude myself into thinking I :> : am standing on a higher moral plane than those who actually get out :> : there and enjoy life, and this is likely just a defense mechanism to :> : prevent me from getting too depressed and killing myself :> :> Well said.  I am always suspicious of any claims on this newsgroup :> about morality.  There are rational and spiritual reasons to be :> opposed to casual sex.  However I doubt the people behind these :> posts have such reasons.  I could be wrong, but for the most part :> they just sound like bitter, grumpy people who try to make themselves :> feel better by putting down others. : But the fact that everyone can’t get it – may make it immoral in and of : itself mightn’t it?  Um, well, I think I’d better go join the communist : party now … Not everyone can see either.  Is it immoral to see?  Not everyone can post to Usenet either.  If morality is to be defined by the lowest common denominator of humanity, then precious little will be moral. Have fun on the commune. Stephen

Response:

Please forgive the empty post Stephen wrote: > 1womanscyberpersona <nowherewo…@nowhereland.com> wrote: > : <step…@nomail.msu.edu> wrote in message > : news:9adl71$1op1$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu… > :> a…@jkl.com <> wrote: > :> : On Sun, 01 Apr 2001 06:26:04 GMT, anon-29…@anon.twwells.com wrote: > :> > :> : Just > :> : because I’m really a fat, wimpy, hate-filled

piece of crap who doesn’t > :> : know how to dress or talk to women doesn’t mean I view sex any > :> : differently in terms of morality.  Often times

I like to think it is > :> : immoral, simply to make myself feel better.

Because I sure as hell > :> : ain’t gettin’ any.  I will temporarily delude

myself into thinking I > :> : am standing on a higher moral plane than those

who actually get out > :> : there and enjoy life, and this is likely just a

defense mechanism to > :> : prevent me from getting too depressed and killing myself > :> > :> Well said.  I am always suspicious of any claims on this newsgroup > :> about morality.  There are rational and spiritual reasons to be > :> opposed to casual sex.  However I doubt the people behind these > :> posts have such reasons.  I could be wrong, but for the most part > :> they just sound like bitter, grumpy people who

try to make themselves > :> feel better by putting down others. > : But the fact that everyone can’t get it – may make

it immoral in and of > : itself mightn’t it?  Um, well, I think I’d better

go join the communist > : party now … > Not everyone can see either.  Is it immoral to see? Not everyone > can post to Usenet either.  If morality is to be defined by the > lowest common denominator of humanity, then precious little will be > moral.

Am I jealous of people who are involved in loving relationships?  Hell yes.  Am I jealous of those who engage in one-night stands or who view sex as a game of conquest?  No. Maybe my own feelings are distorting my intepretation, but I think that 1woman’s point is that it is _unfair_ – i.e., hurtful, and anything immoral is hurtful, though not always the other way around – that some people can get sex, love, whatever, while others can’t.  Maybe her point is that the immorality is in some people’s not having opportunities for love, while others who do instead choose meaningless sex.  In any event, whatever specific point she’s trying to make, I agree it with it.  (I think we share similar views about morality).   What’s the address of that commune? ===== Joe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail: h…@anon.twwells.com   — for an automatically returned help message ad…@anon.twwells.com  – for the service’s administrator ano…@anon.twwells.com — anonymous mail to the administrator

Response:

step…@nomail.msu.edu wrote: > Not everyone can see either.  Is it immoral to see?  Not everyone > can post to Usenet either.  If morality is to be defined by the > lowest common denominator of humanity, then precious little will be > moral.

I think it’s immoral to see if you (as a society, I’m no optometrist) don’t do anything to try and solve the problem.  There are thousands of people in developing countries who can’t see for the want of a simple cataract operation or appropriate medication that would be standard procedure in the US.  I think that’s immoral. There has been discussion about the ‘digital divide’, i.e. the problems that may already exist or will exist in the future because many people don’t have access to the internet.  Personally I think there are more important priorities (I think solutions are a kind of ‘let them eat laptops’ type scenario) but it’s a valid opinion.

Response:

ON HATING LOVE I’ve never written anything of the sort.  *However* I decided in junior high I *hated* love songs.  I hated them because I thought them stupid and later more so because they were not about my problems (heh what shybie has *relationship* problems in hs and jr high – lol).  And there were so many love songs but so few songs about *my* problems – my distressing problems .. sigh Anyway, on with my non-love life….  I decided in high school that I would work on my personality and my character.  Now make no mistake this was primarily because I wanted to and had nothing to do with anyone else or meeting anyone else or anything.  But as an additional ancilliary benefit I hoped that this would attract a guy I could love to me someday.  Maybe I knew nothing, maybe I hadn’t read enough asf back then (none of course to realize that guys only cared about looks … however I decided back then that that and a bit of intellegence was all I had going for me.  Sorry, if a guy in hs (who I didn’t have a crush on or anything), but whom I later found out thought I was attractive back then had spoke the fuck up, maybe it would have been different … I mean I might have thought better about myself. I don’t know a bit later this had progressed to – I’m not ready for a relationship because I need to be *perfect* to deserve to be in a relationship.  I even told this one unjesting, utterly sincere, to my therapist.  My therapist could have slapped me upside the head for the sillyness of my thoughts.  But I did honestly believe it ….  And then later I was just not ready I said *and believed* because I had to work on myself first (my shyness/getting some friends (yea that’s been sucessful -( ) and all that.  *Now*, I’m, oh um er …… in no-mans-land, in no-*MAN’S*-land – and aimless.

Response:

1womanscyberpersona <nowherewo…@nowhereland.com> wrote: > later I was just not ready I said *and believed* because I had to work on > myself first (my shyness/getting some friends (yea that’s been sucessful > -( ) and all that.  *Now*, I’m, oh um er …… in no-mans-land, in > no-*MAN’S*-land – and aimless.

er, so you mean I shouldn’t be thinking like that? Beckie

Response:

<becki…@my-deja.com> wrote in message

news:9afeo3$oq7$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au… > 1womanscyberpersona <nowherewo…@nowhereland.com> wrote: > > later I was just not ready I said *and believed* because I had to work on > > myself first (my shyness/getting some friends (yea that’s been sucessful > > -( ) and all that.  *Now*, I’m, oh um er …… in no-mans-land, in > > no-*MAN’S*-land – and aimless. > er, so you mean I shouldn’t be thinking like that? > Beckie

Um, I don’t know.  I don’t know. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

<becki…@my-deja.com> wrote in message

news:9aa0pd$s5f$3@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au… > Belenus <bele…@sympatico.ca> wrote: > > That’s why since I was 13 I was going to be single all my > > life.  Yes 13, I have written proof, I regurlaly write my thoughts, > > and it’s scary to see that I was so right back then.  I knew this was > > coming, > There’s a bit in High Fidelity by Nick Hornby where the main character > says something about how only a certain kind of person could believe > they’d be alone forever when they were 26, which didn’t really make me > feel any good since I was 18 and felt the same way

The movie right?  I missed it unfortunately, thanks for pointing it out I’m going to rent it soon. > > why didn’t I kill myself then when I had the chance??? > > I guess that’s why I don’t wear a bicycle helmet and ride like crazy > > downtown. > > I hope that I have a major accident and die. > What about this girl you like?  Don’t you want to see what happens there?

What if I told you I know exactly what is going to happen?  I will try to change that though Positive thinking that’s the way I must think.  I know I still have some chances. Alex

Response:

Belenus <bele…@sympatico.ca> wrote: >> There’s a bit in High Fidelity by Nick Hornby where the main character >> says something about how only a certain kind of person could believe >> they’d be alone forever when they were 26, which didn’t really make me >> feel any good since I was 18 and felt the same way > The movie right?  I missed it unfortunately, thanks for pointing it out I’m > going to rent it soon.

The book too, which is better, but see the movie first Actually, i should say I don’t still feel the same way, maybe I will be alone forever, but then again, maybe not >> What about this girl you like?  Don’t you want to see what happens there? > What if I told you I know exactly what is going to happen?  I will try to > change that though > Positive thinking that’s the way I must think.  I know I still have some > chances.

Yes you do Good luck talking to her Beckie

Response:

a…@jkl.com <> wrote:

: On Sun, 01 Apr 2001 06:26:04 GMT, anon-29…@anon.twwells.com wrote: :>Thank you, 1woman, for inspiring this post :> :>Today, I came to recognize one of my larger problems, :>as it relates to finding companionship of the opposite :>sex:  courtship is dead and buried (at least with the :>younger, more sexually immoral generation), and I :>can’t accept it. :  <snip> : I’m just going to respond to your comment about the younger : generation.  I can fully understand this feeling, and your : frustration.  I myself have never "gotten any" — though I plan to : visit a prostitute soon — and at times I have thought that the : majority of people my age are simply degenerates.  Some are, but I : know I exaggerate it a good deal in my mind.  However, I can’t say I : really see the phrase "sexually immoral" making any sense.   <SNIP> : But is there anything intrinsically immoral in the act itself?  Is it : wrong for two consenting individuals to have some fun?   <SNIP> : Just : because I’m really a fat, wimpy, hate-filled piece of crap who doesn’t : know how to dress or talk to women doesn’t mean I view sex any : differently in terms of morality.  Often times I like to think it is : immoral, simply to make myself feel better.  Because I sure as hell : ain’t gettin’ any.  I will temporarily delude myself into thinking I : am standing on a higher moral plane than those who actually get out : there and enjoy life, and this is likely just a defense mechanism to : prevent me from getting too depressed and killing myself Well said.  I am always suspicious of any claims on this newsgroup about morality.  There are rational and spiritual reasons to be opposed to casual sex.  However I doubt the people behind these posts have such reasons.  I could be wrong, but for the most part they just sound like bitter, grumpy people who try to make themselves feel better by putting down others.   Stephen

Response:

<step…@nomail.msu.edu> wrote in message > Well said.  I am always suspicious of any claims on this newsgroup > about morality.  There are rational and spiritual reasons to be > opposed to casual sex.  However I doubt the people behind these > posts have such reasons.  I could be wrong, but for the most part > they just sound like bitter, grumpy people who try to make themselves > feel better by putting down others. > Stephen

I agree completely, with both Stephen and asdf.  It’s just another one of those rationalizations, and I have amassed a fairly long list of those myself.  It’s total BS (in my case anyway) If was more secure, confident, and better looking, I would try my best to be a player .  I have no moral or religious issues in regard to sex, but the topic does embarrass me a little, which it shouldn’t; sexuality is just part of being human, although it is incredibly frustrating from time to time:)

Response:

<step…@nomail.msu.edu> wrote in message

news:9adl71$1op1$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> a…@jkl.com <> wrote: > : On Sun, 01 Apr 2001 06:26:04 GMT, anon-29…@anon.twwells.com wrote: > :>Thank you, 1woman, for inspiring this post > :> > :>Today, I came to recognize one of my larger problems, > :>as it relates to finding companionship of the opposite > :>sex:  courtship is dead and buried (at least with the > :>younger, more sexually immoral generation), and I > :>can’t accept it. > :  <snip> > : I’m just going to respond to your comment about the younger > : generation.  I can fully understand this feeling, and your > : frustration.  I myself have never "gotten any" — though I plan to > : visit a prostitute soon — and at times I have thought that the > : majority of people my age are simply degenerates.  Some are, but I > : know I exaggerate it a good deal in my mind.  However, I can’t say I > : really see the phrase "sexually immoral" making any sense. > <SNIP> > : But is there anything intrinsically immoral in the act itself?  Is it > : wrong for two consenting individuals to have some fun? > <SNIP> > : Just > : because I’m really a fat, wimpy, hate-filled piece of crap who doesn’t > : know how to dress or talk to women doesn’t mean I view sex any > : differently in terms of morality.  Often times I like to think it is > : immoral, simply to make myself feel better.  Because I sure as hell > : ain’t gettin’ any.  I will temporarily delude myself into thinking I > : am standing on a higher moral plane than those who actually get out > : there and enjoy life, and this is likely just a defense mechanism to > : prevent me from getting too depressed and killing myself > Well said.  I am always suspicious of any claims on this newsgroup > about morality.  There are rational and spiritual reasons to be > opposed to casual sex.  However I doubt the people behind these > posts have such reasons.  I could be wrong, but for the most part > they just sound like bitter, grumpy people who try to make themselves > feel better by putting down others.

But the fact that everyone can’t get it – may make it immoral in and of itself mightn’t it?  Um, well, I think I’d better go join the communist party now …

Response:

Belenus <bele…@sympatico.ca> wrote: > That’s why since I was 13 I was going to be single all my > life.  Yes 13, I have written proof, I regurlaly write my thoughts, > and it’s scary to see that I was so right back then.  I knew this was > coming,

There’s a bit in High Fidelity by Nick Hornby where the main character says something about how only a certain kind of person could believe they’d be alone forever when they were 26, which didn’t really make me feel any good since I was 18 and felt the same way > why didn’t I kill myself then when I had the chance??? > I guess that’s why I don’t wear a bicycle helmet and ride like crazy > downtown. > I hope that I have a major accident and die.

What about this girl you like?  Don’t you want to see what happens there? Beckie

Response:

I don’t think it’s an exclusively American notion that sex is immoral.  In fact my first thought would be exactly the reverse.  In most societies, sex outside marriage is consdiered harmful and dangerous, as it was in European/American society only a few decades ago. I had a conversation a while ago on ICQ with a muslim guy from Bosnia, and amongst other things he was saying how he thought Western society was depraved and sex-mad.  He was saying that in muslim societies they just don’t have problems like that, if you can’t find a girlfriend you just go and see your local priest and he finds you a wife.  Now usually I would just ignore opinions like that, thinking these poor people have been brainwashed by some extreme religion, and I certainly don’t have any time for the kind of fundamentalist stuff that goes on around the world, especially as half the time it’s basically just an abuse of human rights. But amongst my indignation at someone even attempting to convert e to islam, I thought, have they actually got a point? One thing I have certainly changed my views on recently is the way sex is so public now, especially in the media.  I don’t just mean blatent pornography, because at least that’s honest about it’s purpose, I mean the way that you can’t get away from it now, it’s everywhere. A lot of what you see in everyday life now would be considered obscene not so long ago.   When I was a few years younger I listened to the arguement that this was a bad thing with total incomprehension– if people want to see this kind of thing then why not?  But now I think it’s actualy a very bad thing, and perhaps we were right before that it’s something best talked about in private only, if at all. So to answer to your question, I agree that extra-marital sex in itself isn’t an immoral thing.  At first glance, the prevailing 1960s idea (that now women no-longer have to worry about getting pregnant all the time, why not just have free love with as many people as possible as often as possible) seems like a good idea.  That is, until you realise that when it develops, what’s actually happens is that the most desirable people are able to do that (if they want to) and those that are less desirable (for whatever reason– being physically unattractive, shy, old, or any other reason) are going to have a miserable time and have to put up with it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -a…@jkl.com wrote: > On Sun, 01 Apr 2001 06:26:04 GMT, anon-29…@anon.twwells.com wrote: > >Thank you, 1woman, for inspiring this post > >Today, I came to recognize one of my larger problems, > >as it relates to finding companionship of the opposite > >sex:  courtship is dead and buried (at least with the > >younger, more sexually immoral generation), and I > >can’t accept it. >  <snip> > I’m just going to respond to your comment about the younger > generation.  I can fully understand this feeling, and your > frustration.  I myself have never "gotten any" — though I plan to > visit a prostitute soon — and at times I have thought that the > majority of people my age are simply degenerates.  Some are, but I > know I exaggerate it a good deal in my mind.  However, I can’t say I > really see the phrase "sexually immoral" making any sense.  There are > many things one can do that might be considered immoral, but it seems > to be an exclusively American notion that sex is one of them — if > you’re not from the US, please ignore that comment; I’m just making an > assumption.  Sure, I am extremely envious of those with the good > fortune to be able to have some sex with the beautiful young ladies I > see walking around every day, and the proliferation of sexual imagery > in every segment of the media is rather tiresome and annoying to me. > But is there anything intrinsically immoral in the act itself?  Is it > wrong for two consenting individuals to have some fun?  I mean… I’m > trying to imagine myself good looking, well-dressed, confident, etc. > In that situation, I imagine I’d be loving the college life and going > out every weekend, hitting the clubs and trying to get laid.  I’m sure > my goal would be to get all the sex I could with as many different > girls as possible and I know I wouldn’t feel bad about it.  Just > because I’m really a fat, wimpy, hate-filled piece of crap who doesn’t > know how to dress or talk to women doesn’t mean I view sex any > differently in terms of morality.  Often times I like to think it is > immoral, simply to make myself feel better.  Because I sure as hell > ain’t gettin’ any.  I will temporarily delude myself into thinking I > am standing on a higher moral plane than those who actually get out > there and enjoy life, and this is likely just a defense mechanism to > prevent me from getting too depressed and killing myself — which I’m > sure I will get around to one of these days.  Just thinking about it > logically though, I have to come to the conclusion that I am simply a > loser and no better than anyone else.

Response:

> > How long this stands?  For me it has been 8 years since this entry.  I > also > > knew exactly how I would act with a girl I’m interested in.  I thought I > > could change that… but not now. > It’s been 8 years for me too. I’m 26.

Yeah me too.  I’ve written words to that effect since I was in school.  I used to think that things would change though. They kind of did, but I don’t think I was realising what the problem was back then. I’m 26 too, does this make us the class of ‘93? > > I don’t write everyday but regurlarly.  For me it’s something different, I > > used to write with subjectivity a lot, now I only write about my analysis, > > being REALLY objective.  Reading old thoughts is funny though brings the > > monets back into my head, for analysis all over again… > Yeah, I don’t write everyday either.  I write most often when I’m > down/depressed…whatever I happen to be thinking about…there’s no > theoretical comtemplations or philosophicals ponderings or anything like > that, really…just dumb shit.

 That’s exactly what I write.  I never read it though, unless I want to check some fact or date, in which case I have to wade through pages of rubbish to find it.

Response:

Great post Joe.  I agree with pretty much everything you said, but I wonder if the good old days really were all that good?  I too imagine the past as being a much better place, but I’m too young to actually know what it was like.  Supposedly it was a time when people expected to be judged on the content of their character rather than.. whatever it is these days, what you look like mainly.  Certainly it seems such things as the ‘British Reserve’ were thought of as a good thing, rather than a life-crippling dysfunction. People keep telling me that the world is a much better place now that all these social changes have taken place, and I’m sure it is for a lot of people, but it doesn’t seem to be for me. I was one who believed passionately in my youth that we could achieve this utopian dream if everyone was just nicer to each other and we got rid of all these ‘old fasioned’ non politically correct views, but now it just seems like I fell for a lie. Keivn.

Response:

"Belenus" <bele…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > > I made a similar agreement with myself–a journal entry, when I was 18. I > > really had no intention of actually holding myself to it, but, so far, so > > good. > How long this stands?  For me it has been 8 years since this entry.  I also > knew exactly how I would act with a girl I’m interested in.  I thought I > could change that… but not now.

It’s been 8 years for me too. I’m 26. > I don’t write everyday but regurlarly.  For me it’s something different, I > used to write with subjectivity a lot, now I only write about my analysis, > being REALLY objective.  Reading old thoughts is funny though brings the > monets back into my head, for analysis all over again…

Yeah, I don’t write everyday either.  I write most often when I’m down/depressed…whatever I happen to be thinking about…there’s no theoretical comtemplations or philosophicals ponderings or anything like that, really…just dumb shit.

Response:

    I didn’t think anyone would ever understand my view, until I read this post.  I’ve always wanted to be worth waiting for.  I’ve always wanted to learn and grow together, make mistakes together, and grow in our understanding.  I could never be with an experienced woman because I have nothing to offer her which she has not already known and I fear that I will never find what I need, since women don’t look at me any way. Wanna see my pic? http://www.denofheathens.com/picphoto_00001.gif

Response:

jasonml <bba…@hotmail.comatose> wrote in message

news:ouSx6.7388$RF1.421412@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net… > "Belenus" <bele…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > > That’s why since I was 13 I was going to be single all my > > life. > I made a similar agreement with myself–a journal entry, when I was 18.  I > really had no intention of actually holding myself to it, but, so far, so > good.

How long this stands?  For me it has been 8 years since this entry.  I also knew exactly how I would act with a girl I’m interested in.  I thought I could change that… but not now. >   Yes 13, I have written proof, I regurlaly write my thoughts, > > and it’s scary to see that I was so right back then. > Yeah, I’ve written a journal for about 10 years.  I went about a year > without writing anything though, and I’ve only just recently resumed writing > in it.  It’s pretty neat to go back and time and see what I was thinking on, > say, November 2, 1992.  It’s interesting to see how my neurosis, cynicism, > and negativity has grown over time, just like a fungus

I don’t write everyday but regurlarly.  For me it’s something different, I used to write with subjectivity a lot, now I only write about my analysis, being REALLY objective.  Reading old thoughts is funny though brings the monets back into my head, for analysis all over again… Alex

Response:

anon-29…@anon.twwells.com wrote:

: Thank you, 1woman, for inspiring this post : Today, I came to recognize one of my larger problems, : as it relates to finding companionship of the opposite : sex:  courtship is dead and buried (at least with the : younger, more sexually immoral generation), and I : can’t accept it. : I mentioned this to an older person tonight.  She : usually ridicules my theories, but she agreed with : this one.  That is bad; that means it is true. I would not say that exactly.  I suppose it depends on what one means by courtship. In the US anyways, people are getting married much later than they used to, and engagements are longer as well. People are not pressured into rushing into marriage as much as before, which is a good thing for all of us late bloomers. Stephen

Response:

"Belenus" <bele…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > That’s why since I was 13 I was going to be single all my > life.

I made a similar agreement with myself–a journal entry, when I was 18.  I really had no intention of actually holding myself to it, but, so far, so good.   Yes 13, I have written proof, I regurlaly write my thoughts, > and it’s scary to see that I was so right back then.

Yeah, I’ve written a journal for about 10 years.  I went about a year without writing anything though, and I’ve only just recently resumed writing in it.  It’s pretty neat to go back and time and see what I was thinking on, say, November 2, 1992.  It’s interesting to see how my neurosis, cynicism, and negativity has grown over time, just like a fungus

Response:

Joe, That was so entirely sweet and so from the heart! It made me long for a time long ago in the days of chivalry and manners!  It is so beautiful to know that there are some still out there with a tender heart. It will happen one day sweetie, hang in there! Kim — ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The most pathetic person in the world is the person who has sight, but no vision." ~Helen Keller~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Each week, an area the size of Rhode Island is ravaged by logging. More than 80% of the world’s ancient forests have already disappeared. Find out what you can do to save ancient forests. http://www.greenpeaceusa.org/forests ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <anon-29…@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message

news:9a6heo$1j61$1@twwells.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thank you, 1woman, for inspiring this post > Today, I came to recognize one of my larger problems, > as it relates to finding companionship of the opposite > sex:  courtship is dead and buried (at least with the > younger, more sexually immoral generation), and I > can’t accept it. > I mentioned this to an older person tonight.  She > usually ridicules my theories, but she agreed with > this one.  That is bad; that means it is true. > I’m a hopeless romantic and a hopeless idealist.  In > the old days, up until the (despicable) hippie > generation (which was started by idealists, ironically > enough), men were expected to pursue women slowly and > steadily, over a long period of time, until 1) she > either became unavailable (i.e., another man won her > heart), 2) he won over someone else, or 3) he won her > over.  Women with any amount of class were expected to > say "No," at the start.  It was the man’s job to meet > her standards. > Why did this change?  Probably because of the more > transient, faster-paced lifestyle that is wrecking > modern society.  Anyway, I don’t think it should have > changed.  I act as if it didn’t. > I’m not comfortable quickly wooing women.  With > strangers, I am bad conversationalist, bad at talking > about that person or myself.  I like the idea of > getting to know someone before engaging in anything > romantic with her, because I want to make sure this is > the kind of woman I want.  Oh, for the days when high > school/college sweethearts married one another > Things today are not fair to guys like me; players > have the advantage now.  Superficiality and loveless > sex matters more than does forming close, long-lasting > relationships. > Nowadays, any man who pursues a women over any length > of time is considered desperate or possibly crazy. > Damn  I am a bit insane, but it’s this sort of > thing that erodes my sanity.  When one tries and tries > for something, he deserves a chance at getting it, I > believe. > Moreover, I know what I like, but I rarely find that > type.  Then, I never get anywhere, because that woman > is skittish and is scared off by aggressive behavior > of any sort.  Any persistence scares her, and the fact > that society suggests that a persistent man is trouble > hurts me even more.  Where can I find a woman who is > willing to allow me to prove myself to her?  I feel > more and more desperate…. > ===== > Joe > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text > — > For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail: > h…@anon.twwells.com   — for an automatically returned help message > ad…@anon.twwells.com  – for the service’s administrator > ano…@anon.twwells.com — anonymous mail to the administrator

Response:

EXCELLENT post Joe!!!!!! Exactly how I feel. > Today, I came to recognize one of my larger problems, > as it relates to finding companionship of the opposite > sex:  courtship is dead and buried (at least with the > younger, more sexually immoral generation), and I > can’t accept it.

No s**t, I’m the younger generation and I feel like I was born 20 too late on that subject. > I mentioned this to an older person tonight.  She > usually ridicules my theories, but she agreed with > this one.  That is bad; that means it is true. > I’m a hopeless romantic and a hopeless idealist.  In > the old days, up until the (despicable) hippie > generation (which was started by idealists, ironically > enough), men were expected to pursue women slowly and > steadily, over a long period of time, until 1) she > either became unavailable (i.e., another man won her > heart), 2) he won over someone else, or 3) he won her > over.  Women with any amount of class were expected to > say "No," at the start.  It was the man’s job to meet > her standards.

That’s what I expect too.  But knowing how people act around me I feel pressured into trying to pace things to something way too fast for me to feel comfortable.  Just take the girl I like and left (Scenario Question thread)  I want to win her slowly, but I know there are other guys who will go and do a fast job (pun intended) > Why did this change?  Probably because of the more > transient, faster-paced lifestyle that is wrecking > modern society.  Anyway, I don’t think it should have > changed.  I act as if it didn’t.

That’s a fact, look at our we live, from the day we are born we are rushed into this and that.  We go to school, college then start working like a bag of potatoes (don’t ask I love comparing humans to veggies)  We are becoming mindless automatons. > Moreover, I know what I like, but I rarely find that > type.  Then, I never get anywhere, because that woman > is skittish and is scared off by aggressive behavior > of any sort.  Any persistence scares her, and the fact > that society suggests that a persistent man is trouble > hurts me even more.  Where can I find a woman who is > willing to allow me to prove myself to her?  I feel > more and more desperate….

Feeling your pain man, I know how it feels trust me. That’s why since I was 13 I was going to be single all my life.  Yes 13, I have written proof, I regurlaly write my thoughts, and it’s scary to see that I was so right back then.  I knew this was coming, why didn’t I kill myself then when I had the chance??? I guess that’s why I don’t wear a bicycle helmet and ride like crazy downtown. I hope that I have a major accident and die. Alex

Response:

Thank you, 1woman, for inspiring this post Today, I came to recognize one of my larger problems, as it relates to finding companionship of the opposite sex:  courtship is dead and buried (at least with the younger, more sexually immoral generation), and I can’t accept it. I mentioned this to an older person tonight.  She usually ridicules my theories, but she agreed with this one.  That is bad; that means it is true. I’m a hopeless romantic and a hopeless idealist.  In the old days, up until the (despicable) hippie generation (which was started by idealists, ironically enough), men were expected to pursue women slowly and steadily, over a long period of time, until 1) she either became unavailable (i.e., another man won her heart), 2) he won over someone else, or 3) he won her over.  Women with any amount of class were expected to say "No," at the start.  It was the man’s job to meet her standards. Why did this change?  Probably because of the more transient, faster-paced lifestyle that is wrecking modern society.  Anyway, I don’t think it should have changed.  I act as if it didn’t. I’m not comfortable quickly wooing women.  With strangers, I am bad conversationalist, bad at talking about that person or myself.  I like the idea of getting to know someone before engaging in anything romantic with her, because I want to make sure this is the kind of woman I want.  Oh, for the days when high school/college sweethearts married one another Things today are not fair to guys like me; players have the advantage now.  Superficiality and loveless sex matters more than does forming close, long-lasting relationships. Nowadays, any man who pursues a women over any length of time is considered desperate or possibly crazy. Damn  I am a bit insane, but it’s this sort of thing that erodes my sanity.  When one tries and tries for something, he deserves a chance at getting it, I believe. Moreover, I know what I like, but I rarely find that type.  Then, I never get anywhere, because that woman is skittish and is scared off by aggressive behavior of any sort.  Any persistence scares her, and the fact that society suggests that a persistent man is trouble hurts me even more.  Where can I find a woman who is willing to allow me to prove myself to her?  I feel more and more desperate…. ===== Joe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail: h…@anon.twwells.com   — for an automatically returned help message ad…@anon.twwells.com  – for the service’s administrator ano…@anon.twwells.com — anonymous mail to the administrator

Response:

Filed under: Human Rights

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