Robert Fisk: Congratulations, America. You have made bin Laden a happy man

Question:

I generally agree with your post. As to the Taliban, they appear to have given bin Laden the green light to carry out the bombings, at the time they were already expecting an American bombing. If this be proved, and all I have is a report from the net, then the Taliban were supporting terrorism. RLA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Obviously Bush is a man who is quite accustomed to having his own way no matter what it might cost him and he has the money and in this case we have the money and he will use it to stamp out terrorism. He is arrogant and has a fascist mentality. He has no respect for international law or human rights. I’m still not quite sure how the Taliban, besides being a very bad regime qualifies as a terrorist government – but that is moot because they have been effectively destroyed. What this administration understands is the U.S. does have the means and the present regime (speaking through Bush) understands how to use that power. Laura Bush doesn’t care about women in Afghanistan. And the president doesn’t care about the lives who have been killed in HIS order to bomb Afghanistan. We have not won anything. Osama bin Laden is still at large. So is Omar. The 19 who perpetrated those acts of terrorism against the U.S. are dead and were dead by their own hands, not ours. There is no victory in killing more Afghanistan civilians or Taliban. As a progressive-realist I’ll support efforts to oppose the violence of terrorism and to improve the human condition but I’m also opposed to wrecking the social security fund by turning this department of Homeland Defense into an American Gestapo. I’m opposed to the bombing. TheGolem PNEWS-L (oldest "progressive" (realist) news and views newsletter/symposium on the internet – since 1982 – Subscribe: http://pnews.org/signup.shtml) Fisk should tell Bin Ladin to be carefull bcse I for one was never under the illusion that Americans weren’t going to fight fire with fire. US citizens aren’t Israelis, and if Bin Ladin or anyone else pushes hard enough, they’re going to put mass martyrdom on sale – not a pretty site, but who’s going to stop them ??? Steph.

Response:

Robert Fisk: Congratulations, America. You have made bin Laden a happy man ‘We are turning ourselves into the kind of deceitful, ruthless people whom bin Laden imagines us to be’ I’m willing to make Osama even more happy by giving him a nice public execution. Why does not Osama come out of his hole and accept this gift of happiness?

Cases like the Pardue’s in Alabama serve to reinforce the logic of those like Osama. If he were come to Alabama, they will definately have him a very quick way to his "heaven". We fully agree that so long as he hides from the glory of his own teachings, he is indeed telling his followers that he is above them and should live only to help them die sooner and by the hundreds faster.

Response:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1797000/179… m Reservists’ rebellion highlights cracks The Israeli army relies on its reservists By the BBC’s Barbara Plett A rebellion in the ranks of Israeli army reservists is the first real crack in Israel’s united stand against the 16-month Palestinian uprising. So far numbers are small. Around 100 reserve soldiers and officers have signed a petition refusing to serve in the West Bank and Gaza. We hereby declare we will no longer fight in the war for the welfare of the settlements in the territories Reservists’ petition They say they had "received orders and instructions that had nothing to do with the security of the state and whose sole purpose is the perpetuation of our domination of the Palestinian people." But they are hoping to add hundreds more signatures to what an Israeli newspaper has called a burgeoning protest movement. It has taken awhile. There has been virtually no Israeli opposition to the country’s military policy during this Palestinian intifada, or uprising – unlike during the first intifada, which ended almost 10 years ago. The petitioners do not want to serve in the territories This is partly because the Israeli left collapsed after the failure of the Camp David peace summit in July 2000 and partly because the army is now faced not only with stone-throwing children but also with armed militiamen who are viewed as terrorists. Peace activists say the reservists have begun to protest now because they have come up for their second round of service, and there is no end in their gun-sights. Vital role The Israeli army relies on reserves, who do a month’s duty every year after they finish their mandatory conscript service. Now they are needed to man roadblocks and guard Jewish settlements built on land occupied by Israel in 1967 and wanted by the Palestinians for their own state. Mofaz doubts the petitioners’ moral concerns The dissenters say this goes beyond their duties to defend Israel. "We hereby declare we will no longer fight in the war for the welfare of the settlements in the territories," they said in the petition. "We will not continue to fight beyond the Green Line (Israel’s pre-1967 border) for the purpose of dominating, expelling, starving and humiliating an entire people. " They speak of soldiers shooting and abusing Palestinian civilians, of army lies and cover-ups. All this is strongly denied by the military brass. Punishment The Chief of Staff Shaul Mofaz said on Friday that individual cases of irregular behaviour were dealt with severely. He suggested the petitioners had political motives rather than moral concerns, and said if that was the case their actions would be treated like incitement to rebellion. The price of the occupation is loss of the humane image of the Israeli Defence Forces and corruption of the entire Israeli society Reservists’ petition Tough words, but so far no tough action. At least two of the petitioners have been temporarily suspended with more likely to follow. Military sources said they would probably not be dismissed but moved to other positions, after which their cases would be re-evaluated. For activists from the left wing group Yesh Gvul (in Hebrew "There is a Limit, or Border") this is a familiar pattern. "Although refusing an order is a grave offence against military law, the army has consistently disciplined refuseniks by summary procedure, never once by court-martial," it says in a statement. Conscientious objectors "In Yesh Gvul we attribute this striking lapse to the army’s fear that a formal trial would allow the defendant to challenge the legality of the order given." The group emerged after Israel’s 1982 invasion of Lebanon to back reservists who refused to serve there. It says its phone lines are swamped now with people thinking about a similar stand on the West Bank and Gaza. Yesh Gvul records 400 individuals who have made that decision. Peace groups are supporting the petitioners The reservist petitioners, however, are more of a threat. They are taking a collective and public action, in essence asking the government, where are you taking us? They cannot be dismissed as left wing radicals: most are officers from combat units who have served on front lines. And their refusal is couched in patriotic terms. "We have sensed how the orders we received erode every value we have imbibed in this country," they wrote. "We understand today that the price of the occupation is loss of the humane image of the Israeli Defence Forces and corruption of the entire Israeli society." Army protests are the cutting edge of dissent in Israel, say peace activists. They give legitimacy to political opposition, which might otherwise be branded as disloyal. Of course the petitioners are being branded as disloyal. They are called by some traitors who are threatening the security of Israel. But some also call them principled men, a recognition that if this is not yet an opposition movement, it is at least a signal to the army and political establishment that Israelis are beginning to look for another way. Forwarded: the Occupied Terrorities) http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1795000/179… m Split widens over Israeli reservists Israel has made incursions into the West Bank and Gaza A decision by more than 100 Israeli reserve officers to refuse to serve in the Palestinian territories has sparked a furious row inside the military, and a widening public debate. In the biggest challenge to the army’s authority since the Palestinian uprising began 16 months ago, the reservists have said they are not willing to fight for the purpose of "dominating, expelling, starving and humiliating an entire people". We reserve combat soldiers and officers say the decision is in our hands – we are already more than 100 Statement by Israeli reserve officers This in turn has prompted a strong counter campaign, and a suggestion by the army’s chief of staff that there are political motives behind the protest, which would amount to incitement to rebellion. A former head of Israel’s internal security service, Ami Ayalon, has given his support to their protest, saying he is very concerned about the large number of unarmed Palestinian children shot by Israeli troops. In an interview with Israeli television, he said that, as far as he was concerned, not enough soldiers were refusing to obey what he called blatantly illegal orders. But he added that refusing to serve in the West Bank and Gaza was not the answer. Military service is compulsory in Israel, and men are required to serve in the reserves for over a month each year until well into middle age unless they have a special exemption. Petition growing Military commanders have suspended two of the rebellious officers who started a petition and are interviewing others who signed it. An Israeli army spokesman, Lieutenant Colonel Oliver Rafinovich, told the BBC that the protest was not supported by the majority of serving soldiers. He said the military authorities would not speak to the officers as a group, but would see them individually and discuss their views. Checkpoints are part of everyday life for Palestinians Initially, 52 reserve officers signed the petition. But the list is now growing and the petition with 50 new signatures was published in an Israeli newspaper on Friday. "We reserve combat soldiers and officers say the decision is in our hands – we are already more than 100," their statement said. In response, a counter campaign has begun with reservists condemning the protesters and publishing their own petition in the same newspaper. Disciplinary action Another counter petition has appeared on the internet and an organiser, Nir Aboodraham, said up to 5,000 people had signed it. The BBC’s Caroline Hawley, in Jerusalem, says it is not only the military that is worried – the reservists’ rebellion is now taking on growing political significance. A poll conducted for Israel radio said 31% of Israelis supported the protesting officers. Mr Sharon says democracy is being threatened The Israeli leader, Ariel Sharon, has said he is not against criticism, but that if soldiers did not carry out the decisions of an elected government, it would be the beginning of the end of democracy. The army’s Chief of Staff, Shaul Mofaz, has said he is taking the issue very seriously and will take disciplinary action against any officer who refuses to serve. But a spokesman for the protesters said General Mofaz’s suggestion that they might face charges of incitement to rebellion was an attempt to silence them. Israeli troops and tanks have staged frequent incursions into the West Bank and Gaza since the current uprising, or intifada, began in September 2000. It says that, because the Palestinian Authority has failed to rein in groups such as Islamic Jihad and Hamas, Israel must defend itself against suicide bombings and other attacks on its citizens. Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat has been under virtual house arrest at his headquarters in the West Bank town of Ramallah as Israel continues to hold h im responsible for much of the violence. The Palestinian Authority has denied being behind attacks on Israelis. http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=117594 Rebellion grows among Israeli reserve officers By Phil Reeves in Jerusalem 01 February 2002 Internal links Sharon: we should have killed Arafat in 1982 Car crash adds to Lebanese suspicion of Israeli cover-up Israel’s armed forces are struggling to contain the most serious internal challenge of the 16-month Palestinian intifada after more than 100 combat reservist soldiers signed a petition saying they would not serve in the occupied territories. At least four of the signatories have been stripped of their command … read more »

Response:

*belch* Discussions on the war on terror are always full of such twaddle. What is wrong with some people? Fisk is one of those Englishmen who read T.E. Lawrence a few to many times, and everything went downhill from there. All those years in Beirut didn’t help much.

LOL

Response:

Robert Fisk: Congratulations, America. You have made bin Laden a happy man ‘We are turning ourselves into the kind of deceitful, ruthless people whom bin Laden imagines us to be’

I’m willing to make Osama even more happy by giving him a nice public execution. Why does not Osama come out of his hole and accept this gift of happiness?

Response:

Robbie, time for you to go "native" and get another beating.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *belch* Discussions on the war on terror are always full of such twaddle. What is wrong with some people? Fisk is one of those Englishmen who read T.E. Lawrence a few to many times, and everything went downhill from there. All those years in Beirut didn’t help much.

Response:

Obviously you need go back to your Mosque and do a refresher course. A more balanced diet and vitamins might also improve your mental outlook, enabling you to see more clearly. Drugs and Islam are a mixture that can truly distort the mind. If you give up the drugs, and stand on your head 4 hours a day, you might be better in a few years. Cheers and good luck! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Obviously Bush is a man who is quite accustomed to having his own way no matter what it might cost him and he has the money and in this case we have the money and he will use it to stamp out terrorism. He is arrogant and has a fascist mentality. He has no respect for international law or human rights. I’m still not quite sure how the Taliban, besides being a very bad regime qualifies as a terrorist government – but that is moot because they have been effectively destroyed. What this administration understands is the U.S. does have the means and the present regime (speaking through Bush) understands how to use that power. Laura Bush doesn’t care about women in Afghanistan. And the president doesn’t care about the lives who have been killed in HIS order to bomb Afghanistan. We have not won anything. Osama bin Laden is still at large. So is Omar. The 19 who perpetrated those acts of terrorism against the U.S. are dead and were dead by their own hands, not ours. There is no victory in killing more Afghanistan civilians or Taliban. As a progressive-realist I’ll support efforts to oppose the violence of terrorism and to improve the human condition but I’m also opposed to wrecking the social security fund by turning this department of Homeland Defense into an American Gestapo. I’m opposed to the bombing. TheGolem PNEWS-L (oldest "progressive" (realist) news and views newsletter/symposium on the internet – since 1982 – Subscribe: http://pnews.org/signup.shtml) Fisk should tell Bin Ladin to be carefull bcse I for one was never under the illusion that Americans weren’t going to fight fire with fire. US citizens aren’t Israelis, and if Bin Ladin or anyone else pushes hard enough, they’re going to put mass martyrdom on sale – not a pretty site, but who’s going to stop them ??? Steph.

Response:

*belch* Discussions on the war on terror are always full of such twaddle. What is wrong with some people?

Fisk is one of those Englishmen who read T.E. Lawrence a few to many times, and everything went downhill from there. All those years in Beirut didn’t help much.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *belch* What’s the big deal with them being shackled, hooded, and in one case sedate? These are dangerous, dangerous, crazy people; you have to take strong precautions against them. And why would bin-laden be happy about us getting tough? His objective has never been to make Western governments more draconian (against him!)…his objective is a global Islamic state… Discussions on the war on terror are always full of such twaddle. What is wrong with some people? And as for classifying the captives as prisoners of war…why?? So we cant interrogate them? So we have to let them go afterwards, allowing them to go free and try to kill us? This is idiocy…

### And propaganda. It was posted to 111100000000000 newsgroups about the same number of times by Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah groupies. See http://www.honestreporting.com for an assessment to the very poor quality of Fisk’s reporting.

Response:

*belch* What’s the big deal with them being shackled, hooded, and in one case sedate? These are dangerous, dangerous, crazy people; you have to take strong precautions against them. And why would bin-laden be happy about us getting tough? His objective has never been to make Western governments more draconian (against him!)…his objective is a global Islamic state… Discussions on the war on terror are always full of such twaddle. What is wrong with some people? And as for classifying the captives as prisoners of war…why?? So we cant interrogate them? So we have to let them go afterwards, allowing them to go free and try to kill us? This is idiocy…

Response:

Then explain why the WH allowed Pakistan to fly out 1000’s of Taliban soldiers from Afghanistan. — "It should not be lost to history that Bush is going after the Taliban in the name of democracy when he worked so hard a year ago to ban the tally." – Derrick Z. Jackson, Boston Globe

Response:

Fisk should tell Bin Ladin to be carefull bcse I for one was never under the illusion that Americans weren’t going to fight fire with fire. US citizens aren’t Israelis, and if Bin Ladin or anyone else pushes hard enough, they’re going to put mass martyrdom on sale – not a pretty site, but who’s going to stop them ??? Steph.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *belch* What’s the big deal with them being shackled, hooded, and in one case sedate? These are dangerous, dangerous, crazy people; you have to take strong precautions against them. And why would bin-laden be happy about us getting tough? His objective has never been to make Western governments more draconian (against him!)…his objective is a global Islamic state… Discussions on the war on terror are always full of such twaddle. What is wrong with some people? And as for classifying the captives as prisoners of war…why?? So we cant interrogate them? So we have to let them go afterwards, allowing them to go free and try to kill us? This is idiocy…

The Geneva Convention on Prisoners of War is accorded to uniformed military personal, of governments that are at war and to those combatants that have surrendered and no longer a threat. It does not apply to brigands, terrorist, or spies. What government did Alkida represent? None! The Teliban, did not represent any government either. The UN never recolonized them and considered them brigands. What is going on is cleverly crafted lies, first by domestic opponents to the current administration, and then spread to the British press that has sensationalized events, that they know nothing about. The International Red Cross is currently interviewing all detainee at Gitmo, and have released no derogatory remarks regarding the prisoners to date. The one Red Cross official said that no prisoners yet have complained of any legitimate wrongs. Gags indeed, common sanitary dust masks, used to prevent those prisoners with tuberculosis and other decease from infecting the guards and other prisoners are "chocking devices used to torture " bla bla bla Some folks aren’t happy unless they can exaggerate or lie! Of note: The Sec.of Defense Donald Rumsfield said no further transfers of prisoners from Kandahar to Cuba will take place until more permanent facilities can be built. Perhaps they should send the remaining prisoners to detention camps in Britain! Cheerio

Response:

Obviously Bush is a man who is quite accustomed to having his own way no matter what it might cost him and he has the money and in this case we have the money and he will use it to stamp out terrorism. He is arrogant and has a fascist mentality. He has no respect for international law or human rights. I’m still not quite sure how the Taliban, besides being a very bad regime qualifies as a terrorist government – but that is moot because they have been effectively destroyed. What this administration understands is the U.S. does have the means and the present regime (speaking through Bush) understands how to use that power. Laura Bush doesn’t care about women in Afghanistan. And the president doesn’t care about the lives who have been killed in HIS order to bomb Afghanistan. We have not won anything. Osama bin Laden is still at large. So is Omar. The 19 who perpetrated those acts of terrorism against the U.S. are dead and were dead by their own hands, not ours. There is no victory in killing more Afghanistan civilians or Taliban. As a progressive-realist I’ll support efforts to oppose the violence of terrorism and to improve the human condition but I’m also opposed to wrecking the social security fund by turning this department of Homeland Defense into an American Gestapo. I’m opposed to the bombing. TheGolem PNEWS-L (oldest "progressive" (realist) news and views newsletter/symposium on the internet – since 1982 – Subscribe: http://pnews.org/signup.shtml) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fisk should tell Bin Ladin to be carefull bcse I for one was never under the illusion that Americans weren’t going to fight fire with fire. US citizens aren’t Israelis, and if Bin Ladin or anyone else pushes hard enough, they’re going to put mass martyrdom on sale – not a pretty site, but who’s going to stop them ??? Steph.

Response:

Robert Fisk: Congratulations, America. You have made bin Laden a happy man ‘We are turning ourselves into the kind of deceitful, ruthless people whom bin Laden imagines us to be’ 22 January 2002 Shackled, hooded, sedated. Taken to a remote corner of the world where they may be executed, where the laws of human rights are suspended. Sounds to me like the Middle East. Shackled, hooded, threatened with death by "courts" that would give no leeway to defence or innocence. In fact, it sounds like Beirut in the 1980s. I’ve written this story before. Last time, I remember writing about the threats to my kidnapped journalist friend Terry Anderson of the Associated Press, tied up, hooded, always threatened by his "Islamist" captors in Lebanon. That was between 1986 and 1991 and Terry

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