Activism Change

Myanmar Perspectives (August, 1997 – Vol. 3, No.8)

Question:

According to the 1997 "Recent Economic Developments" Report by the IMF, Cumulative investment, 1989-1995 (Disbursement Basis) amounted to 1.213 billion dollars.  That’s the total, the vast majority of which was by Total and Unocal for their death pipeline through Mon and Karen regions of Southern Burma. I got the 4 Bill. $ number from a recent TV report on Burma. It included all foreign investment,  also that of Asian countries.

The IMF figures include all foreign investment.  The difference is, the SLORC makes a big deal out of announcing "approved investment," which is alot of yak, yak, yak.  The only real figure is the "disbursed investment" which measures the amount actually invested.  This explains the discrepancies.  But you can see how it is the SLORC’s interest to push the "approved" figure, since it ends up in TV reports and people use it to suggest there is lots of international investment and business support for the SLORC. The fact is, most business is on the fence.  That’s why it is crucial to send a stern message at this moment.  A tourism boycott is one way to send the message. LD – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Methinks you swallowed some SLORC propaganda! my numbers might be wrong (I will check this), but even then it must not necessarily be SLORC propaganda.

Response:

On the other hand, it was the economic embargo on South Africa that made them change their ways." BTW:  Investment in Burma in 1996 was about 4 billion dollar, mainly from Europe, US, Canada, Japan and some extent Thailand and Malaysia. This number is probably slightly decreasing this year.

Duh!!! This is such total crap!!! According to the 1997 "Recent Economic Developments" Report by the IMF, Cumulative investment, 1989-1995 (Disbursement Basis) amounted to 1.213 billion dollars.  That’s the total, the vast majority of which was by Total and Unocal for their death pipeline through Mon and Karen regions of Southern Burma. Methinks you swallowed some SLORC propaganda! LD

Response:

Jonnie, I couldn’t agree more. Peter === [blah blah blah] Jonnie,  Are you suggesting that Amnesty International (Nobel Peace  

prize recipient) are condescending racists?  Are you suggesting that Auw San Suu Kyi (Nobel Peace prize recipient) is a condescending       racist? The only condescending racists that I am aware of here are the murderous thugs called SLORC, to whom tourism give legitamacy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Regards, David from Oregon. No.  But I am suggesting that this holier-than-thou Johpa freak is one. If you inferred otherwise, that’s your problem.  The SLORC and the NLD can sort themselves out; we don’t need to impose our values on either. What makes you think that Asians are so inferior? JBG

Response:

Peter in But I am suggesting that this holier-than-thou Johpa freak is one. If you inferred otherwise, that’s your problem. Jonnie, I couldn’t agree more. Peter

Well excuuuuse me for suggesting that the money you spend in Burma might be  used to finance the rapes, pillages, and plunders of my Karen relatives.  I  must rally be a freak of nature for suggesting such a thing.  But wait a  minute. On the tourist trail in Burma, oh pardon me, they like to becalled  travelers to maintain their youthful fantasies,  one does not see death, or  villages burning, or young women moaning in agony after having been raped by a  squad of men, nor young children slowly wasting away from dysentary.   No they  find smiling faces selling them Pepsi and a bed to sleep upon.  Thus and  therefore, in the admittedly limited minds of these worldly travelers, there  is no violence in Burma and one and all should go to visit this country filled  with charm and splendor. Obviously Mr. Blah Blah Jonny and his new found friend Mr. Peter have never had  their realtives murdred or raped by groups of soldiers.  Since Mr. Jonnie has  already admitted to having only half a brain, perhaps if he consults with  Peter we might get a whole person out of the meeting.  But then am I asking  too much? Happy Trails Johpa Your local freak

Response:

Some quotes on this topic from Armand Noble, publisher of International Travel News (ITN). "When a tourist goes to Burma they have not placed "tourism above politics" but rather personal pleasure over human decency.  There is a difference between ‘politics’ and flat out oppression.  Burma’s political prisoners seem to die in prison." "A man wrote to me after spending a month in Burma and said he had a wonderful time and was not affected by any problems there.  I faxed him back the fictitious postcard from German-occupied Poland, November, 1941. ‘I am having a wonderful time in the city of Auschwitz.  I understand that there is some unpleasantness at the edge of town but people here are very nice to me.’" "A philosopher once wrote, ‘Don’t take your holidays in another man’s prison.’" "I am of an age now that I have scores of years hearing from the well-meaning that tourism, etc., will bring nasty countries around to being nice people.  I ask, in all of human history, when has that ever happened?  Please, name one country. On the other hand, it was the economic embargo on South Africa that made them change their ways." Armand Noble, Publisher, ITN

Response:

[blah blah blah] Nobody is expecting people who don’t give a fuck and who have only half a brain to bother with the details or to boycott anything for that matter. I am glad that with your half brain you were still able to enjoy yourself.   Bet you enjoyed Khao San Rd too, eh? Happy Trails Johpa

I don’t like your patronising political evangelism.  You obviously think you’re on some sort of mission to save humanity.  You disparage others who, like me, reason that the Burmese can sort out their own problems. I appreciated Burma for the sights and the people.  That some condescending racist sees fit to condemn my highly enjoyable sojourn does not detract for the fondness I harbour for that country — with or without the SLORC. JBG

Response:

Jonnie,  Are you suggesting that Amnesty International (Nobel Peace  

prize recipient) are condescending racists?  Are you suggesting that Auw San Suu Kyi (Nobel Peace prize recipient) is a condescending       racist? The only condescending racists that I am aware of here are the murderous thugs called SLORC, to whom tourism give legitamacy. Regards, David from Oregon. No.  But I am suggesting that this holier-than-thou Johpa freak is one. If you inferred otherwise, that’s your problem.  The SLORC and the NLD can sort themselves out; we don’t need to impose our values on either. What makes you think that Asians are so inferior?

Jonnie BG, people are people, neither inferior nor superior, but with different values.  A common denominator is the desire to avoid suffering. Some people have guns. Some people have no guns.  In Burma, those with guns are killing those without guns.  Those without guns are asking the rest of humanity to resist giving legitamacy to those with guns.   It is not a matter of racism, inferiority, superiority, name-calling, or what my problems are…it is a matter that some innocent people are being slaughtered by murderous thugs.  Those innocent survivors (like Aung San Suu Kyi) are pleading with the rest of humanity to avoid travel to their country.   Fortunately some people who live by their heart, such as Johpa, revere Aung San Suu Kyi more than they revere you. Regards from Oregon, David.

Response:

[blah blah blah] Nobody is expecting people who don’t give a fuck and who have only half a brain to bother with the details or to boycott anything for that matter. I am glad that with your half brain you were still able

to enjoy yourself.   Bet you enjoyed Khao San Rd too, eh? Happy Trails Johpa I don’t like your patronising political evangelism.  You obviously think you’re on some sort of mission to save humanity.  You disparage others who, like me, reason that the Burmese can sort out their own problems. I appreciated Burma for the sights and the people.  That some condescending racist sees fit to condemn my highly enjoyable sojourn does not detract for the fondness I harbour for that country — with or without the SLORC. JBG

Jonnie,  Are you suggesting that Amnesty International (Nobel Peace prize recipient) are condescending racists?  Are you suggesting that Auw San Suu Kyi (Nobel Peace prize recipient) is a condescending racist?  The only condescending racists that I am aware of here are the murderous thugs called SLORC, to whom tourism give legitamacy.   Regards, David from Oregon.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jonnie B. Goode in [blah blah blah] To compare Burma with general oppression whether in the US or Malaysia is to ignore scale. The Burmese govt shot thousands in the street. Who gives a fuck?  The country’s great, the people friendly and the prices low.  If you have half a brain, you’ll manage to avoid paying the exorbitant ‘foreign guest’ fees for transport and sights; I didn’t pay a single one when I was there. So the government is nasty.  Boo hoo hoo. Nobody is expecting people who don’t give a fuck and who have only half a brain  to bother with the details or to boycott anything for that matter. I am glad  that with your half brain you were still able to enjoy yourself.  Bet you  enjoyed Khao San Rd too, eh?

I don’t share Mr. Goode’s views but must say that I don’t see a problem in visiting Myanmar, especially if you try to avoid putting money directly into the governments pockets. There are lots of countries with bad governments, and boicotting Myanmar has become a popular issue mainly due to media attention (and manipulation). In its usual hypocrisy, the US government wants to boicott Myanmar (whish is not important to the US economy), but happily supports China’s communist government, who not long ago massacred a student uprising. Personally, I have started boicotting the US for this very reason. Besides, nothing is made in the US anymore. Pick up an item from any "US" company, and it will have "made in china" written on it. The only thing American about is the price tag. It would be nice if people could apply some individual thought to boicotting issues instead of going with the flow all the time. There are a lot of countries that could need some boicotting, and Myanmar is not the first one that comes to mind. What about the Indonesian oppression of East Timor? China’s violation of human rights and the suppresion of the Tibetan people? Malaysian timber companies support the destruction of rain forest. Japan is the biggest buyer of this timber, and has a notoriously bad record when it comes to environmental issues. Should we boicott them all? Just some food for thought… – Fabian

Response:

[blah blah blah] To compare Burma with general oppression whether in the US or Malaysia is to ignore scale. The Burmese govt shot thousands in the street.

Who gives a fuck?  The country’s great, the people friendly and the prices low.  If you have half a brain, you’ll manage to avoid paying the exorbitant ‘foreign guest’ fees for transport and sights; I didn’t pay a single one when I was there. So the government is nasty.  Boo hoo hoo.  The United States killed hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese, but that didn’t stop me enjoying New Orleans or the Rockies.  I’ve visited Rwanda, Iran, Sudan (where I cheered on a public flogging), Nigeria and dozens of other unsavoury places and enjoyed them all _for what they were_.  If part of the experience is watching rioting students in Baku or Lagos get the shit beaten out of them, so be it. JBG.

Response:

Jonnie B. Goode in [blah blah blah] To compare Burma with general oppression whether in the US or Malaysia is to ignore scale. The Burmese govt shot thousands in the street. Who gives a fuck?  The country’s great, the people friendly and the prices low.  If you have half a brain, you’ll manage to avoid paying the exorbitant ‘foreign guest’ fees for transport and sights; I didn’t pay a single one when I was there. So the government is nasty.  Boo hoo hoo.

Nobody is expecting people who don’t give a fuck and who have only half a brain  to bother with the details or to boycott anything for that matter. I am glad  that with your half brain you were still able to enjoy yourself.  Bet you  enjoyed Khao San Rd too, eh? Happy Trails Johpa

Response:

To compare Burma with general oppression whether in the US or Malaysia is to ignore scale. The Burmese govt shot thousands in the street. Who gives a fuck?  The country’s great, the people friendly and the prices low.  So the government is nasty.  Boo hoo hoo.  The United States killed hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese, but that didn’t stop me enjoying New Orleans or the Rockies.  I’ve visited Rwanda, Iran, Sudan (where I cheered on a public flogging) JBG.

Jonnie B.;  During the height of U.S. involvement in Viet Nam, a student protest at the Kent State campus of the University of Ohio resulted in less than two dozen students killed by the National Guard.  The result was a boycott of classes across the country and the essential closing of most of the Universities in America for the rest of the semester.  This was the turningpoint of public awareness in the US and marked the beginning of the pull out of US troops from Viet Nam.  It was public awareness and citizen participation of a boycott that changed political course.   There is suffering and cruelty around the world.  Sometimes boycotts and dialogue and public exposure  do change political venues.   We are not talking of professional soldiers killing professional soldiers. We are not talking of criminals being punished.  This is about 19 year old un-armed kids being murdered by professional soldiers.  This is about entire villages being herded onto a mine field to "sweep" the mine field. This is about a regime that Amnesty International has singled out as the most repressive regime in the world.  This is about ethics and humanity and avoidable human suffering.   This is about giving legitamacy to people who rape and murder children.  "Who gives a fuck"?  You would….if it was your mother being fucked. We are not talking about half a brain, we are talking about half a heart. David from Oregon.

Response:

2.      History shows that isolation nvere improves things. Openness and contacts fortunatly do sometimes help a little.

Most people believe isolation helped bring change about in South Africa. I hope to be in Myanmar next year. Peter

To compare Burma with general oppression whether in the US or Malaysia is to ignore scale. The Burmese govt shot thousands in the street. When I was traveling through SE Asia last winter I skipped Burma but talked to many who had gone there. One person told me a story of visiting Shwedagon Pagoda early in the morning before the entrance fee is collected to avoid giving money to the govt. When the govt tried to collect later she offered to give it to the monks. When they insisted she pay them she refused and was thrown out. Others spoke of meeting common poor Burmese who were thrilled to meet with a visitor. If you are willing to travel like this I don’t think you give as much support to the govvt as you do to the people but if you have any interest in the people you are visiting I think you should make a commitment to traveling this way. By the way, the only country in SE Asia that seemed more popular than Burma among longterm travelers was Laos. It has its human rights problems but nothing on the scale of Burma. Dean

Response:

Myanmar Perspectives (August, 1997) is available on the web.

MONSTERS RUN THAT COUNTRY.  BOYCOTT BURMA.

Response:

Dear David Judging from various postings by you in this newsgroup, it seems you have a personal vendetta against the Myanmar regime. I won’t ask for your reasons. I won’t defend the regime (no way do they deserve that). But there are a couple of other ways of looking at it: 1.      Few governments are humane when it doesn’t suit them. Some do it on a smaller scale, some do it more subtle, but they all do it when the feel it is needed. Also the so-called western democracies (regimes that go by the rules that westerners find appropriate) have their nasty and ugly sides. E.g. in the USA people are killed in the name of the law. Nowhere to go, really. 2.      History shows that isolation nvere improves things. Openness and contacts fortunatly do sometimes help a little. I hope to be in Myanmar next year. Peter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Myanmar Perspectives (August, 1997) is available on the web. MONSTERS RUN THAT COUNTRY.  BOYCOTT BURMA.

Response:

Myanmar Perspectives (August, 1997) is available on the web. Myanmar Perspectives (August, 1997 – Vol. 3, No.8)                                      IN THIS ISSUE Current – Foreign Minister of Laos Visits Myanmar – Thanlwin River (Hpa-An) Bridge Opened – Japanese NGO to Help Greening Dry Zone in Myanmar The Economy – Pipelines being Laid at Yadana Natural Gas Project Culture HighLights – Will the Bullock-Cart Go ? – The Taung Byone Nat Festival – Theatre’s Male Dancer  Tourist Column – Monywa and Places of Interest Nearby Biodiversity – Cheetah (Kya-Min) The Fastest Animal in The World – Myanmar Hosts The Workshop of The International Neemnetwork Poems – Railroad to Pondaung-Ponnya – At The Foot of The Shwe Dagon – The Lost Poem Miscellany – Myanmar Women Enterpreneurs Association (MWEA) Attractions and Delights – Bitter is Salubrious Myanmar Superlatives – The Largest Stone Buddha Image Just A Change Of Outlook – Just A Change of Outlook Pls browse at : http://www.myanmar.com/gov/perspec/97aug/yangon.html

Response:

Filed under: Human Rights

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