Activism Change

In Baghdad, many insist Americans would regret an invasion

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In Baghdad, Many Insist Americans Would Regret an Invasion By Sergei L. Loiko Los Angeles Times December 30, 2002   Engineer Qusai Jabbar has a word of advice for Americans who think Iraqi President Saddam Hussein is so unpopular that ousting his regime will be a cakewalk: Remember Stalin.   "Russia lived under a bloody tyrant for a long time," Jabbar said. "This tyrant killed millions of his own people and sent millions … to Siberia. But when the big war came, his people rallied around him and fought like the possessed."   Just as Russians struggled against Nazi Germany’s World War II attack regardless of their feelings toward Soviet dictator Stalin, virtually all Iraqis will fiercely resist any U.S.-led invasion, Jabbar predicts.

Gee, this sounds a lot like we heard from Lord Ha Ha and Tokyo Rose. It DIDN’T happen that way. So I think you’re suggesting that we just nuke Iraq and avoid it all, huh? I don’t think so, it’s not needed.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – – –Where and when, at the United Nations, was this appeal made? . . . Surely such an accusation has a verifiable –history in the UN. — –Well, I know some people have a problem with figuring out  how to use a -search engine…so here is a link for you to read use: – -And some people can’t read a simple question and then give a relevant -answer. – -Where’s is the evidence that Iraq complained to any international body -such as the UN or OPEC or The World Court in the Hague or even the -police station down the block? I gave you a link so that YOU could find the information for yourself. Your link did not contain what your answer promised. Your link is NOT the answer to the question I asked. I did not ask for links to recent essays and rants. I asked for verifiable evidence in the records of any recognized international body to establish that Iraq filed a timely, formal complaint saying that Kuwait was stealing Iraq’s oil. The reason why you did not is because Iraq never filed such a complaint and therefore no complaint was ignored. Yet that is Iraq’s (and an earlier post’s) excuse as to why Iraq invaded and sacked its unarmed neighbor. Iraq’s excuse is a bold-faced lie. The person who made that stupid accusation is either a bold face liar or a gross incompetent or a total dupe – or all three. All in favor of "all three," please raise your hands.

[ hand raised high in air ]

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – - –Where and when, at the United Nations, was this appeal made? . . . Surely such an accusation has a verifiable –history in the UN. — –Well, I know some people have a problem with figuring out  how to use a -search engine…so here is a link for you to read use: – -And some people can’t read a simple question and then give a relevant -answer. – -Where’s is the evidence that Iraq complained to any international body -such as the UN or OPEC or The World Court in the Hague or even the -police station down the block? I gave you a link so that YOU could find the information for yourself.

Your link did not contain what your answer promised. Your link is NOT the answer to the question I asked. I did not ask for links to recent essays and rants. I asked for verifiable evidence in the records of any recognized international body to establish that Iraq filed a timely, formal complaint saying that Kuwait was stealing Iraq’s oil. The reason why you did not is because Iraq never filed such a complaint and therefore no complaint was ignored. Yet that is Iraq’s (and an earlier post’s) excuse as to why Iraq invaded and sacked its unarmed neighbor. Iraq’s excuse is a bold-faced lie. The person who made that stupid accusation is either a bold face liar or a gross incompetent or a total dupe – or all three. All in favor of "all three," please raise your hands.

Response:

- –Where and when, at the United Nations, was this appeal made? . . . Surely such an accusation has a verifiable –history in the UN. — –Well, I know some people have a problem with figuring out  how to use a -search engine…so here is a link for you to read use: – -And some people can’t read a simple question and then give a relevant -answer. – -Where’s is the evidence that Iraq complained to any international body -such as the UN or OPEC or The World Court in the Hague or even the -police station down the block? I gave you a link so that YOU could find the information for yourself. Did you even bother? I doubt it, since you chose to "snip" it. http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Iraq%2Bslant%2Bdrilling Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian http://Rainbow-Christian.tk The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I’m Gay http://Ninure-Saunders.tk My Yahoo Group http//Ninure.tk My Online Diary http://www.ninure.deardiary.net – Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches http://www.MCCchurch.org To send e-mail, remove nohate from address

Response:

-Where and when, at the United Nations, was this appeal made? . . .  Surely such an accusation has a verifiable -history in the UN. – -Well, I know some people have a problem with figuring out  how to use a search engine…so here is a link for you to read use:

And some people can’t read a simple question and then give a relevant answer. Where’s is the evidence that Iraq complained to any international body such as the UN or OPEC or The World Court in the Hague or even the police station down the block?

Response:

– –  "You don’t know the history of the conflict. Kuwait was stealing our oil, -cheating on us all the time," complained Amal Khoderi, 65, an amiable and -energetic patron of the arts in Baghdad. "We appealed to the world community -many times to stop it, but nothing was done." – -Where and when, at the United Nations, was this appeal made? Perhaps -the anonymous poster of the article has such information and is -willing to share it with us so we can have a rational basis on which -share Amal’s outrage? Surely such an accusation has a verifiable -history in the UN. – -Well, I know some people have a problem with figuring out  how to use a search engine…so here is a link for you to read use: http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Iraq%2Bslant%2Bdrilling And on the issue of Itaq’s  WMD, you might find this intewresting: http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_1985to1989.html#iraq1988 Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian http://Rainbow-Christian.tk The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I’m Gay http://Ninure-Saunders.tk My Yahoo Group http//Ninure.tk My Online Diary http://www.ninure.deardiary.net – Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches http://www.MCCchurch.org To send e-mail, remove nohate from address

Response:

Bring it on… "Americans think they will come in and rule us.. " Nope.. Iraq can rule themselves.. actually, I bet they cannot. They would rather blow one another up, but I say let them.. just without Saddam. — "What if [Saddam] fails to comply and we fail to act, or we take some ambiguous third route, which gives him yet more opportunities to develop this program of weapons of mass destruction? … Well, he will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on and do more to rebuild an arsenal of devastating destruction. And some day, some way, I guarantee you he’ll use the arsenal." – president Bill Clinton, 1998.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In Baghdad, Many Insist Americans Would Regret an Invasion By Sergei L. Loiko Los Angeles Times December 30, 2002   Engineer Qusai Jabbar has a word of advice for Americans who think Iraqi President Saddam Hussein is so unpopular that ousting his regime will be a cakewalk: Remember Stalin.   "Russia lived under a bloody tyrant for a long time," Jabbar said. "This tyrant killed millions of his own people and sent millions … to Siberia. But when the big war came, his people rallied around him and fought like the possessed."   Just as Russians struggled against Nazi Germany’s World War II attack regardless of their feelings toward Soviet dictator Stalin, virtually all Iraqis will fiercely resist any U.S.-led invasion, Jabbar predicts.   "You don’t need to be in love with Saddam to defend your country to the last," he said. "Americans think they will come here and rule us. They don’t know what they are coming into. If they get food from someone, it will be poisoned. If they turn around with their back to us, we will stick a knife in it. Snipers will be looking for them from every rooftop."   In Iraq today, talk among artists and intellectuals revolves around United Nations sanctions, U.N. weapons inspectors and what is widely seen as the prelude to war. Public anger is fueled by the sanctions, which are viewed as unfair and inhumane, and by memories of the bombing that Baghdad endured during the 1991 Persian Gulf War, when a U.S.-led effort drove out Iraqi forces that had taken Kuwait. Iraqis do not necessarily see their country as the aggressor in that invasion.   "You don’t know the history of the conflict. Kuwait was stealing our oil, cheating on us all the time," complained Amal Khoderi, 65, an amiable and energetic patron of the arts in Baghdad. "We appealed to the world community many times to stop it, but nothing was done."   At the busy open-air Rashid Street book market, where men squat to peruse books in languages including English and Russian, bookseller Hussein Ali, 55, bemoans what sanctions have done to his life.   A retired high school biology teacher with five children, Ali says he draws a pension worth just $4 a month. Buying and selling books brings in about $50 a month, which is nearly enough for his family to live on, he says.   "Sanctions are killing us slowly," Ali said. "The war will kill us fast."   Abdul Khalak, a novelist who sports a Saddam Hussein-type mustache, shared his views at a cafe frequented by writers and students. A color portrait of Hussein hung on the wall, in this case with the beaming strongman holding not his usual gun but a cup of coffee. Some of the customers were smoking traditional narghiles, or water pipes.   Khalak said the U.N. inspectors’ work reminds him of "a most boring Indian movie which goes around in circles and never ends."   "You want to stand up and leave the movie theater," he said. "Right now, our problem is that we can’t. We have to watch it to the end. And the end is bitterly predictable: The U.S. may attack us any second with no respect for what the inspectors find or do not find."   Broad willingness to rally around the government in the face of any U.S.-led invasion comes partly from a widespread belief that Washington is not being honest about its motives, said Wamidh Nadhmi, a political analyst who teaches at Baghdad University.   "What Americans really care for is oil — and help to Israel," he said. "They are not concerned with the fate of human rights and freedoms in Iraq."   War seems almost inevitable to many Iraqis.   "One day, when Americans maybe understand us better, they will see that we are not animals eating human flesh," said Khoderi, who occasionally stuck small, even pieces of dry wood into her fireplace to cut the winter chill. "Thousands of years of civilization can’t be discarded and downtrodden just like this. But I am afraid that Americans — I mean those Americans who are prepared to give orders to bomb us out of existence — don’t have an understanding of history and the meaning of it. They don’t care."   Khoderi was speaking in a house overlooking the Tigris River in old Baghdad that now serves as an art salon, museum, shop and center for music recitals.   A two-story brick-and-wood structure on a gray and dusty street, it boasts arched ornamental ceilings, a walled-in garden with palm trees and flowers, and hundreds of craft items ranging from drawings to carpets and elaborate calligraphy tapestries. Agatha Christie used to stay in the house when she visited Baghdad, Khoderi said.   During the Gulf War, when the United States bombed a bridge just a hundred yards from her home, the attack also destroyed half the house, which she inherited from her father. After that, she was determined to rebuild.   "It was really the ruins of the bridge, not my crippled house, which sent this signal to my very heart," she explained.   "This house is my life, and my life is this house," she said. "They once tried to bomb my life out of existence. Now, they are ready to try again. You know, only people with no sense of history and its role in our civilization can drop bombs on such cities as Baghdad. It is as if they are not humans but some kind of aliens who come from another planet and know nothing about our civilization, our history and culture."   Khoderi predicted that any invasion force will face fierce battles in the city.   "We will resist," she said. "We may see Baghdad burned to ashes, but we will resist. It is not the first time in history that Baghdad is burned. The Tigris River may become red with blood again, as it was in the past, but we will not surrender."

Response:

 "You don’t need to be in love with Saddam to defend your country to the last," he said. "Americans think they will come here and rule us. They don’t know what they are coming into. If they get food from someone, it will be poisoned. If they turn around with their back to us, we will stick a knife in it. Snipers will be looking for them from every rooftop."

Quoting the UN Resolution that Iraq is defying, " . . . Iraq shall not take or threaten hostile acts directed against any representative or personnel of the United Nations or the IAEA or of any Member State taking action to uphold any Council resolution;"   Were the quoted statement merely the ranting of a man on the corner in Baghdad, they could be ignored. But these are repetitious paraphrases of what Iraq’s leaders are saying every day.  "You don’t know the history of the conflict. Kuwait was stealing our oil, cheating on us all the time," complained Amal Khoderi, 65, an amiable and energetic patron of the arts in Baghdad. "We appealed to the world community many times to stop it, but nothing was done."

Where and when, at the United Nations, was this appeal made? Perhaps the anonymous poster of the article has such information and is willing to share it with us so we can have a rational basis on which share Amal’s outrage? Surely such an accusation has a verifiable history in the UN. What irony we have here. An Iraqi is complaining that it was OK to invade and sack an unarmed neighbor at no risk to themselves. Yet we are monsters for being determined, at great risk to our own selves, to make sure they don’t do it again – even if we must invade heavily armed Iraq. The bully does not like being interfered with. What a shock that is.  At the busy open-air Rashid Street book market, where men squat to peruse books in languages including English and Russian, bookseller Hussein Ali, 55, bemoans what sanctions have done to his life.  "Sanctions are killing us slowly," Ali said. "The war will kill us fast."

Sanctions that are the international communities response to the predatory and murderous actions of the government he supports. Does he really fail to understand the cause and effect involved? Or is he terrified into blindness and dumbness? Does his unwillingness or inability to see the true history of the situation require us to be so empathetic that we ignore his government’s actions?  Khalak said the U.N. inspectors’ work reminds him of "a most boring Indian movie which goes around in circles and never ends."  "You want to stand up and leave the movie theater," he said. "Right now, our problem is that we can’t. We have to watch it to the end. And the end is bitterly predictable: The U.S. may attack us any second with no respect for what the inspectors find or do not find."

Another "straw man" argument as boring as any coffee house complaint ever imagined by T. S. Eliot. The UN resolution (see the language of the resolution) is NOT about weapons the inspectors may find or not find. The inspectors are looking for proof that Iraq has already destroyed weapons it admits having and claims to have destroyed. So far, the UN has not found that proof and Iraq is silent. Further, while it is incidental and not very relevant, in the course of those inspections, the UN inspectors are finding additional weapons that Iraq is not supposed to have in the first place.  Broad willingness to rally around the government in the face of any U.S.-led invasion comes partly from a widespread belief that Washington is not being honest about its motives, said Wamidh Nadhmi, a political analyst who teaches at Baghdad University.  "What Americans really care for is oil — and help to Israel," he said. "They are not concerned with the fate of human rights and freedoms in Iraq."

I wonder what Mr. Nadhmi knows about the UN resolution. Does he even know it exists? Does he know what his government has been doing and not doing to avoid compliance. Does he really think that the US is the cause of this 12 year long situation? "Thousands of years of civilization can’t be discarded and downtrodden just like this. But I am afraid that Americans — I mean those Americans who are prepared to give orders to bomb us out of existence — don’t have an understanding of history and the meaning of it. They don’t care."

More straw man arguments. Those are not issues in dispute. Her argument has no more relevance than that of someone living with a man who has barricaded himself in his home after committing vile crimes and taunting the police to come and get him. It matters not how old the criminal is or how many books he owns or how great a philosophy he espouses or how much lovely music he has created. It matters not how nice he has been to some neighbors or how supportive he has been to others. He’s simply an armed and dangerous man who needs to be disarmed and rendered harmless. If the police can’t talk him into a peaceful surrender, anyone inside that barricaded home who supports and encourages him, places himself in harms way.

Response:

In Baghdad, Many Insist Americans Would Regret an Invasion By Sergei L. Loiko Los Angeles Times December 30, 2002   Engineer Qusai Jabbar has a word of advice for Americans who think Iraqi President Saddam Hussein is so unpopular that ousting his regime will be a cakewalk: Remember Stalin.   "Russia lived under a bloody tyrant for a long time," Jabbar said. "This tyrant killed millions of his own people and sent millions … to Siberia. But when the big war came, his people rallied around him and fought like the possessed."   Just as Russians struggled against Nazi Germany’s World War II attack regardless of their feelings toward Soviet dictator Stalin, virtually all Iraqis will fiercely resist any U.S.-led invasion, Jabbar predicts.   "You don’t need to be in love with Saddam to defend your country to the last," he said. "Americans think they will come here and rule us. They don’t know what they are coming into. If they get food from someone, it will be poisoned. If they turn around with their back to us, we will stick a knife in it. Snipers will be looking for them from every rooftop."   In Iraq today, talk among artists and intellectuals revolves around United Nations sanctions, U.N. weapons inspectors and what is widely seen as the prelude to war. Public anger is fueled by the sanctions, which are viewed as unfair and inhumane, and by memories of the bombing that Baghdad endured during the 1991 Persian Gulf War, when a U.S.-led effort drove out Iraqi forces that had taken Kuwait. Iraqis do not necessarily see their country as the aggressor in that invasion.   "You don’t know the history of the conflict. Kuwait was stealing our oil, cheating on us all the time," complained Amal Khoderi, 65, an amiable and energetic patron of the arts in Baghdad. "We appealed to the world community many times to stop it, but nothing was done."   At the busy open-air Rashid Street book market, where men squat to peruse books in languages including English and Russian, bookseller Hussein Ali, 55, bemoans what sanctions have done to his life.   A retired high school biology teacher with five children, Ali says he draws a pension worth just $4 a month. Buying and selling books brings in about $50 a month, which is nearly enough for his family to live on, he says.   "Sanctions are killing us slowly," Ali said. "The war will kill us fast."   Abdul Khalak, a novelist who sports a Saddam Hussein-type mustache, shared his views at a cafe frequented by writers and students. A color portrait of Hussein hung on the wall, in this case with the beaming strongman holding not his usual gun but a cup of coffee. Some of the customers were smoking traditional narghiles, or water pipes.   Khalak said the U.N. inspectors’ work reminds him of "a most boring Indian movie which goes around in circles and never ends."   "You want to stand up and leave the movie theater," he said. "Right now, our problem is that we can’t. We have to watch it to the end. And the end is bitterly predictable: The U.S. may attack us any second with no respect for what the inspectors find or do not find."   Broad willingness to rally around the government in the face of any U.S.-led invasion comes partly from a widespread belief that Washington is not being honest about its motives, said Wamidh Nadhmi, a political analyst who teaches at Baghdad University.   "What Americans really care for is oil — and help to Israel," he said. "They are not concerned with the fate of human rights and freedoms in Iraq."   War seems almost inevitable to many Iraqis.   "One day, when Americans maybe understand us better, they will see that we are not animals eating human flesh," said Khoderi, who occasionally stuck small, even pieces of dry wood into her fireplace to cut the winter chill. "Thousands of years of civilization can’t be discarded and downtrodden just like this. But I am afraid that Americans — I mean those Americans who are prepared to give orders to bomb us out of existence — don’t have an understanding of history and the meaning of it. They don’t care."   Khoderi was speaking in a house overlooking the Tigris River in old Baghdad that now serves as an art salon, museum, shop and center for music recitals.   A two-story brick-and-wood structure on a gray and dusty street, it boasts arched ornamental ceilings, a walled-in garden with palm trees and flowers, and hundreds of craft items ranging from drawings to carpets and elaborate calligraphy tapestries. Agatha Christie used to stay in the house when she visited Baghdad, Khoderi said.   During the Gulf War, when the United States bombed a bridge just a hundred yards from her home, the attack also destroyed half the house, which she inherited from her father. After that, she was determined to rebuild.   "It was really the ruins of the bridge, not my crippled house, which sent this signal to my very heart," she explained.   "This house is my life, and my life is this house," she said. "They once tried to bomb my life out of existence. Now, they are ready to try again. You know, only people with no sense of history and its role in our civilization can drop bombs on such cities as Baghdad. It is as if they are not humans but some kind of aliens who come from another planet and know nothing about our civilization, our history and culture."   Khoderi predicted that any invasion force will face fierce battles in the city.   "We will resist," she said. "We may see Baghdad burned to ashes, but we will resist. It is not the first time in history that Baghdad is burned. The Tigris River may become red with blood again, as it was in the past, but we will not surrender."

Response:

Filed under: Human Rights

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