Human Rights or Human Wrongs?

Question:

I expect a fable to illustrate the point it’s creator wants to illustrate, not that of his capitalist opponents. No, the fable simply doesn’t mention the coops, but it’s implied in the sense that so long as the lion controls the water well (means of production) he’ll be the King.

No, as long as he controls the _only_ means of production he’ll be King. That does not imply anything about coops. Likewise we all know that under communism the well was in possesion of the State, which is a problem of a different kind. So, the only solution is the coop…

No the only solution is not to allow a monopoly in control of a hostile power. This can be done several ways, one of which is the coop. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s the real thing… The Mondragon story below is interesting, but is so partly because it shows the flaws of cooperatives as much as their benefits. For instance it says that the Basques are "proud, industrious, thrifty, and socially cohesive", factors which would make them successful at conventional capital enterprises. It says that workers have to contribute capital, in effect excluding the most needy. Don’t get me wrong the organisation is clearly an achievement, but the details you gave men don’t neccesarily demonstrate a net benefit to workers. In any case it has been known for a long time that cooperatives are part of the capitalist landscape. Mondragon is just another of these. The Mondragon brand of coops has been called a "workers capitalism," and it could certainly be a solution for some. Another type I suggest –without any political connotation– is the kibbutz, which is the most communal… However, I don’t believe that strong bonds can’t be had among people of very different background –America being as cohesive as any other country. And of course, the need to get away from the capitalist ‘whip’ can be a very strong incentive…

What need and what whip? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

Response:

What experience? You gave an example of "the lion" i.e. the State owning the capital. As you pointed out that is not that satisfactory. Take for example the most powerful nation on earth dilapidating her resources in wars and space persuits while the little animals live a subsistance life…

Few americans live a subsistence life. In any case the resources that are wasted are wasted because they are owned by the State. Having the State own the means of production is part of what leads to the wars and wasteful space pursuits. We got to look for a better way.

We did, we found it. For some reason we kept doing it the bad way. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

Response:

The water well wouldn’t be the goverment, as socialism is a pretty wasteful enterprise, even if it means well. No the water well would be a piece of capital. It’s provision by government is as you pointed out, not that satisfactory. Well, according to experience, it doesn’t seem to be the case. Take for example the most powerful nation on earth dilapidating her resources in wars and space persuits while the little animals live a subsistance life… We got to look for a better way. http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

You really ought to change your mind-set. Try looking at life as "the glass is 1/2 full" instead of wallowing in self-pity…you might find that life is quite enjoyable. You view life as a jungle in a negative sense, but it isn’t neccisarily so. There is beauty, danger, restrictions, opportunity, urgency, and liesure in a jungle. When one points the finger of blame, there are 3 more pointing back at you.You are the master of yourself and the sole reason for your own successes and failures. To paraphrase Walter Williams, your first ownership of private property is your own body, your own self. I have the right to enter into any compact with any individual or group. Capitalism is the natural interaction between individuals, be it exchanging goods, services, or labor. That is the basis for which everything else comes into play, and the laws ensuring that your right isn’t abridged. Equal opportunity, not equal outcome. The only right you have is the right to self determination, and if you don’t live in a free country, if you don’t like being dominated by, or live in fear of the lion or wolf…kill him. It is your duty to insure that noone is your master.

Response:

I expect a fable to illustrate the point it’s creator wants to illustrate, not that of his capitalist opponents.

No, the fable simply doesn’t mention the coops, but it’s implied in the sense that so long as the lion controls the water well (means of production) he’ll be the King. Likewise we all know that under communism the well was in possesion of the State, which is a problem of a different kind. So, the only solution is the coop… Here’s the real thing… The Mondragon story below is interesting, but is so partly because it shows the flaws of cooperatives as much as their benefits. For instance it says that the Basques are "proud, industrious, thrifty, and socially cohesive", factors which would make them successful at conventional capital enterprises. It says that workers have to contribute capital, in effect excluding the most needy. Don’t get me wrong the organisation is clearly an achievement, but the details you gave men don’t neccesarily demonstrate a net benefit to workers. In any case it has been known for a long time that cooperatives are part of the capitalist landscape. Mondragon is just another of these.

The Mondragon brand of coops has been called a "workers capitalism," and it could certainly be a solution for some. Another type I suggest –without any political connotation– is the kibbutz, which is the most communal… However, I don’t believe that strong bonds can’t be had among people of very different background –America being as cohesive as any other country. And of course, the need to get away from the capitalist ‘whip’ can be a very strong incentive… http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

Response:

We got to look for a better way. You really ought to change your mind-set. Try looking at life as "the glass is 1/2 full" instead of wallowing in self-pity…you might find that life is quite enjoyable. You view life as a jungle in a negative sense, but it isn’t neccisarily so. There is beauty, danger, restrictions, opportunity, urgency, and liesure in a jungle. When one points the finger of blame, there are 3 more pointing back at you.You are the master of yourself and the sole reason for your own successes and failures.

Or as Aesop Rock says: "Life’s not a bitch, life is a beautiful woman you only call her a bitch cause she won’t let you get that pussy Maybe she didn’t feel ya’ll share any similar interests or maybe you’re just an asshole who couldn’t sweet-talk the princess."

Response:

The sad consequence of this subconsciously implanted context of capitalism is that when well-meaning people seek to devise a fair and equitable set of human rights, the rights they come up with all have a capitalist society as the assumed universe within which they should operate. That is how the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights looks to me. Really? The right to health care looks capitalist to you? The right to education? You have no idea what capitalism is.

What right to health care you got in the US? How the US stands up to those rights? If you defend the Jungle and roar… you are a lion… HOW THE LION BENEFITS FROM THE LITTLE ANIMALS’ POVERTY One day all the little animals went up to the King of the Jungle and complained about their poverty, and in particular about the fact that every time, during the dry season, they had to travel long distances to drink the precious fluid, and demanded a water well be built for them… They cited how the resources that they contributed to the kingdom were wasted in wars and fancy projects to the tastes of the King… He, however, replied with all kinds of excuses: the lack of resources, that it wasn’t a matter of him not wanting it, but that it was a matter of priorities –which was one of his favorite words… Meanwhile, an Owl –who had very good eyes– had been observing life in the jungle, and thought this way: "Every time there’s a dry season the little animals must come to the little dirty water hole where the Lion waits for them… Had they been well fed and strong, he would have had to run after them and even risk resistance…" And that’s how the Owl landed an important –and well paid– post in the brand new Astronomy Department created by the King of the Jungle… to the effect of exploring life in other planets… THE END "What worries me is not the violence of the few, but the indifference of the many" -M.L. King http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

Response:

Really? The right to health care looks capitalist to you? The right to education? You have no idea what capitalism is.

Depends on your version of capitalism. In the earlier part of the 20th century, capitalist ruling classes in many advanced capitalist nations, concerned with the advance of inimical ideologies and not sure they could buy off the leadership of their adherents, decided to buy off their own working classes directly instead, by mitigating the rigors of capitalism through various payments, entitlements, and regulations, usually through the government but sometimes through recognition of other institutions like unions. The intent was to ensure the survival and expansion of capitalism and the power of its ruling classes, and it worked, more or less. The strategy is _capitalist_ in both intent (the aforesaid retention of power by Capital) and in technique (largescale, class-based bureaucracy). The fundamental liberal right is that of _property_, and originally pertained only to a minority (in Virginia of 1750, for example, to White Protestant males of a certain age who owned a certain amount of property). This idea has gradually been expanded to generate such things as a "right to health care",* so it is reasonable to view the theoretical framework as liberal, i.e. capitalist. * That is, health care is conceived of as a kind of property which is then divided and shared out, probably on a class- differentiated basis. — (<<) /*/ { http://www.etaoin.com | latest new material 1/19/03 <-adv’t

Response:

You may have a point: it may be that those who lust for total power have used the language of rights to push their power-seeking agenda, for the same reason that the fabled wolf dressed in sheep’s skin.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The sad consequence of this subconsciously implanted context of capitalism is that when well-meaning people seek to devise a fair and equitable set of human rights, the rights they come up with all have a capitalist society as the assumed universe within which they should operate. That is how the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights looks to me. Really? The right to health care looks capitalist to you? The right to education? You have no idea what capitalism is. What right to health care you got in the US? How the US stands up to those rights? If you defend the Jungle and roar… you are a lion… HOW THE LION BENEFITS FROM THE LITTLE ANIMALS’ POVERTY One day all the little animals went up to the King of the Jungle and complained about their poverty, and in particular about the fact that every time, during the dry season, they had to travel long distances to drink the precious fluid, and demanded a water well be built for them… They cited how the resources that they contributed to the kingdom were wasted in wars and fancy projects to the tastes of the King… He, however, replied with all kinds of excuses: the lack of resources, that it wasn’t a matter of him not wanting it, but that it was a matter of priorities –which was one of his favorite words… Meanwhile, an Owl –who had very good eyes– had been observing life in the jungle, and thought this way: "Every time there’s a dry season the little animals must come to the little dirty water hole where the Lion waits for them… Had they been well fed and strong, he would have had to run after them and even risk resistance…" And that’s how the Owl landed an important –and well paid– post in the brand new Astronomy Department created by the King of the Jungle… to the effect of exploring life in other planets… THE END "What worries me is not the violence of the few, but the indifference of the many" -M.L. King http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

That fable was anti-government and taxes, right?

Response:

This idea has gradually been expanded to generate such things as a "right to health care",* so it is reasonable to view the theoretical framework as liberal, i.e. capitalist. * That is, health care is conceived of as a kind of property which is then divided and shared out, probably on a class- differentiated basis. You may have a point: it may be that those who lust for total power have used the language of rights to push their power-seeking agenda, for the same reason that the fabled wolf dressed in sheep’s skin.

HOW THE BLACK SHEEP WERE EXPELLED One day the Wolf, who had been thinking how to best eat the sheep, decided to dress as a sheep… And that’s how the sheep trusted the new sheep more every day, some confessing to him, others voting for him, and most allowing to be trimmed by him… Meanwhile, the Black Sheep thought this way: "If he got paws and fangs and howls, wolf it is…" And that’s the reason why from then on the Black Sheep weren’t allowed to mingle anymore with the simple and common sheep… http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

Response:

You claimed that the right the UN Declaration espouses "looks to you" like it is based on capitalism. What about the right to health care looks capitalist to you? How about the right to education? There is nothing capitalistic about these rights yet you claim that the UN declaration is capitalistic. This belief is delusional. If you defend the Jungle and roar… you are a lion… HOW THE LION BENEFITS FROM THE LITTLE ANIMALS’ POVERTY One day all the little animals went up to the King of the Jungle and complained about their poverty, and in particular about the fact that every time, during the dry season, they had to travel long distances to drink the precious fluid, and demanded a water well be built for them… They cited how the resources that they contributed to the kingdom were wasted in wars and fancy projects to the tastes of the King… He, however, replied with all kinds of excuses: the lack of resources, that it wasn’t a matter of him not wanting it, but that it was a matter of priorities –which was one of his favorite words…

So stop contributing resources and build the damn well yourself. See how wonderful capitalism is compared to depending on the government? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Meanwhile, an Owl –who had very good eyes– had been observing life in the jungle, and thought this way: "Every time there’s a dry season the little animals must come to the little dirty water hole where the Lion waits for them… Had they been well fed and strong, he would have had to run after them and even risk resistance…" And that’s how the Owl landed an important –and well paid– post in the brand new Astronomy Department created by the King of the Jungle… to the effect of exploring life in other planets… THE END "What worries me is not the violence of the few, but the indifference of the many" -M.L. King http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

Response:

No it doesn’t. The right to health care is specifically anti-capitalist. In the earlier part of the 20th century, capitalist ruling classes in many advanced capitalist nations,

There were no capitalist ruling classes. The ruling class controlled assets by taxing and restricting the productive not by being productive. concerned with the advance of inimical ideologies and not sure they could buy off the leadership of their adherents, decided to buy off their own working classes directly instead, by mitigating the rigors of capitalism through various payments, entitlements, and regulations,

No they mitigated the rigors of mercantilism and corruption. usually through the government but sometimes through recognition of other institutions like unions.

Recognition of (consensually formed) unions is part of capitalism you dolt. The intent was to ensure the survival and expansion of capitalism and the power of its ruling classes, and it worked, more or less.

It failed massively if the intent was to ensure the survival and expansion of capitalism. Capitalism was more limited by these restrictions than the alleged threats to it could ever do. The strategy is _capitalist_ in both intent (the aforesaid retention of power by Capital)

Actually capitalism has nothing to do with retention of power by anybody. If it did then it would include use of force to destroy competitors like feudalism or socialism. and in technique (largescale, class-based bureaucracy).

Like I said you have no idea what capitalism is. The fundamental liberal right is that of _property_, and originally pertained only to a minority (in Virginia of 1750, for example, to White Protestant males of a certain age who owned a certain amount of property).

Sorry no, the right of property applies to everyone no matter how little property they have and whether they are male or white. The right to buy land might be restricted but that is a violation of everyone’s property rights, not just black people’s. This idea has gradually been expanded to generate such things as a "right to health care",* so it is reasonable to view the theoretical framework as liberal, i.e. capitalist.

No it isn’t. The "right" to health care is the right to other people’s property and labour. That is not capitalist. * That is, health care is conceived of as a kind of property which is then divided and shared out, probably on a class- differentiated basis.

Probably on a class-differentiated basis? What do you base that on? What property right is class-differentiated? All property rights are differentiated on whether you bought something.

Response:

… This idea has gradually been expanded to generate such things as a "right to health care",* so it is reasonable to view the theoretical framework as liberal, i.e. capitalist. * That is, health care is conceived of as a kind of property which is then divided and shared out, probably on a class- differentiated basis.

Humans being willful animals and intellectually capable of abstraction, generalization, and self-delusion, desires for and beliefs in total power are rather widespread and appear all too often in human social relations, regardless of the arrangements of the moment. — (<<) /*/ { http://www.etaoin.com | latest new material 1/19/03 <-adv’t

Response:

… Like I said you have no idea what capitalism is.

You’re free to define _capitalism_ as you like, but so am I and so is everyone else. Your ahistorical, idealized, quasi-religious definition may have its uses to you, but it is of no use to me because I’m interested in analyzing history, actual events, rather than preaching a faith. That means examining the behavior of real, actual capitalists and the states they have constructed and worked within. As the person I was responding to was using the term in the same way (I think) I’d suggest you leave the discussion alone: it’s not up to you to determine how others use language. — (<<) /*/ { http://www.etaoin.com | latest new material 1/19/03 <-adv’t

Response:

… Like I said you have no idea what capitalism is. [. . .] As the person I was responding to was using the term in the same way (I think) I’d suggest you leave the discussion alone: it’s not up to you to determine how others use language.

That’s funny, since you were responding to Michael Price. Reproduction of part of discussion: Really? The right to health care looks capitalist to you? The right to education? You have no idea what capitalism is.

Depends on your version of capitalism. In the earlier part [. . .]

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HOW THE LION BENEFITS FROM THE LITTLE ANIMALS’ POVERTY One day all the little animals went up to the King of the Jungle and complained about their poverty, and in particular about the fact that every time, during the dry season, they had to travel long distances to drink the precious fluid, and demanded a water well be built for them… They cited how the resources that they contributed to the kingdom were wasted in wars and fancy projects to the tastes of the King… He, however, replied with all kinds of excuses: the lack of resources, that it wasn’t a matter of him not wanting it, but that it was a matter of priorities –which was one of his favorite words… Meanwhile, an Owl –who had very good eyes– had been observing life in the jungle, and thought this way: "Every time there’s a dry season the little animals must come to the little dirty water hole where the Lion waits for them… Had they been well fed and strong, he would have had to run after them and even risk resistance…" And that’s how the Owl landed an important –and well paid– post in the brand new Astronomy Department created by the King of the Jungle… to the effect of exploring life in other planets… THE END "What worries me is not the violence of the few, but the indifference of the many" -M.L. King http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote That fable was anti-government and taxes, right?

What I like about the real jungle is that a lion is always a lion and a sheep is always a sheep. In the Human Jungle though, the lions –except for a few cases like Hitler– are often disguised as shepherds. You never know who’s who… The above the fable was meant to exemplify how the King of the Jungle was eating the little animals while pretending to be their benefactor. Their poverty brought them to him… And, yes, one of the ways the Lion eats the little animals in the Human Jungle is through taxes. The solution would be for the little animals to make their own hole… the cooperative. http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

Response:

HOW THE LION BENEFITS FROM THE LITTLE ANIMALS’ POVERTY One day all the little animals went up to the King of the Jungle and complained about their poverty, and in particular about the fact that every time, during the dry season, they had to travel long distances to drink the precious fluid, and demanded a water well be built for them… They cited how the resources that they contributed to the kingdom were wasted in wars and fancy projects to the tastes of the King… He, however, replied with all kinds of excuses: the lack of resources, that it wasn’t a matter of him not wanting it, but that it was a matter of priorities –which was one of his favorite words… So stop contributing resources and build the damn well yourself. See how wonderful capitalism is compared to depending on the government?

The water well wouldn’t be the goverment, as socialism is a pretty wasteful enterprise, even if it means well. Rather, the answer would be the cooperative, the ‘free man in the free group’… http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

Response:

No the water well would be a piece of capital. It’s provision by government is as you pointed out, not that satisfactory. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rather, the answer would be the cooperative, the ‘free man in the free group’… http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

Response:

But it doesn’t do that. All it does is show that government and taxes are not the answer. It says nothing about the benefits of a cooperative versus a profit making firm. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

Response:

The solution would be for the little animals to make their own hole… the cooperative. But it doesn’t do that. All it does is show that government and taxes are not the answer. It says nothing about the benefits of a cooperative versus a profit making firm. Well what do you expect? It’s only a fable.

I expect a fable to illustrate the point it’s creator wants to illustrate, not that of his capitalist opponents. Here’s the real thing…

The Mondragon story below is interesting, but is so partly because it shows the flaws of cooperatives as much as their benefits. For instance it says that the Basques are "proud, industrious, thrifty, and socially cohesive", factors which would make them successful at conventional capital enterprises. It says that workers have to contribute capital, in effect excluding the most needy. Don’t get me wrong the organisation is clearly an achievement, but the details you gave men don’t neccesarily demonstrate a net benefit to workers. In any case it has been known for a long time that cooperatives are part of the capitalist landscape. Mondragon is just another of these. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mondrag

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