Today, the Congress has forever stained its reputation and that of the United States of America. It is now a foregone conclusion that the execrable detainee bill will be adopted without amendment. There will be no filibuster, as Democrat Senate Leader Reid agreed with Senate Leader Frist to allow a vote on the bill after dispensation of the proposed amendments debated yesterday and today. Senator Reid made a terrible tactical decision in making this agreement. These amendments had no chance of passing. They had value in highlighting the outrageousness of this bill and in thus justifying a filibuster. But without a filibuster, the exercsie was an empty one. We admire Harry Reid’s leadership but, in this monumental moment, his instincts and judgment failed him. And his place in history will be marked by this terrible day. That said, let us not forget who authored this travesty; who stands for torture, for a dictatorial Presidency and against the Constitution and the rule of law–the Rubber Stamp Republican Congress. The David Broders of the world exhult at the "independence" of such cowards as McCain, Warner, Graham and Dewine. But this is a farce. The votes on habeas corpus, the President’s power to arbitraily define torture and to detain indefinitely–merely on his word, without judicial recourse–anyone, including, American citizens, show these men to be the rankest of cowards–and the worst kind too. For they pretend to be otherwise. And the Broders of the world, the immoral and amoral Beltway Establishment, pretend it is true. To their credit, the vast majority of Democratic legislators stood against torture, with their words and their votes. And history will remember that. But the Democratic Senators did not fight to the end, and that too history will remember. Senator Barack Obama eloquently stated today: I may have only been in this body for a short while, but I am not naive to the political considerations that go along with many of the decisions we make here. I realize that soon, we will adjourn for the fall, and the campaigning will begin in earnest. And there will be 30-second attack ads and negative mail pieces, and we will be called everything from cut-and-run quitters to Defeatocrats to people who care more about the rights of terrorists than the protection of Americans. And I know that the vote before us was specifically designed and timed to add more fuel to that fire. And yet, while I know all of this, I’m still disappointed, and I’m still ashamed. Because what we’re doing here today – a debate over the fundamental human rights of the accused – should be bigger than politics. This is serious. . . . Instead of allowing this President–or any President—to decide what does and does not constitute torture, we could have left the definition up to our own laws and to the Geneva Conventions, as we would have if we passed the bill that the Armed Services committee originally offered. Instead of detainees arriving at Guantanamo and facing a Combatant Status Review Tribunal that allows them no real chance to prove their innocence with evidence or a lawyer, we could have developed a real military system of justice that would sort out the suspected terrorists from the accidentally accused. And instead of not just suspending, but eliminating, the right of habeas corpus–the seven century-old right of individuals to challenge the terms of their own detention, we could have given the accused one chance–one single chance–to ask the government why they are being held and what they are being charged with. . . . But politics won today. Politics won. . . . And the disgrace of the nation will live in history. History will not absolve the President or the Congress on this shameful day. History will not absolve the United States of America. Today we betrayed our values in an exercise of cynical political calculation and blatant fear.

Response:

http://atrios.blogspot.com/2006_09_24_atrios_archive.html#11594600569… Senator Feingold Mr. President, I oppose the Military Commissions Act. Let me be clear: I welcome efforts to bring terrorists to justice. It is about time. This Administration has too long been distracted by the war in Iraq from the fight against al Qaeda. We need a renewed focus on the terrorist networks that present the greatest threat to this country. But Mr. President, we wouldn’t be where we are today, five years after September 11 with not a single Guantanamo Bay detainee having been brought to trial, if the President had come to Congress in the first place, rather than unilaterally creating military commissions that didn’t comply with the law. The President wanted to act on his own, and he dared the Supreme Court to stop him. And he lost. The Hamdan decision was an historic rebuke to an Administration that has acted for years as if it were above the law. Finally, only because he was essentially ordered to do so by the Supreme Court, the President has agreed to consult with Congress. I would have hoped that we would take this opportunity to pass legislation that allows us to proceed in accordance with our laws and our values. That is what separates America from our enemies. These trials, conducted appropriately, have the potential to demonstrate to the world that our democratic, constitutional system of government is our greatest strength in fighting those who attacked us. And that is why I am saddened that I must oppose this legislation. Because, Mr. President, the trials conducted under this legislation will send a very different signal to the world, one that I fear will put our own troops and personnel in jeopardy both now and in future conflicts. To take just a few examples, this legislation would permit an individual to be convicted on the basis of coerced testimony and hearsay, would not allow full judicial review of the conviction, and yet would allow someone convicted under these rules to be put to death. That is simply unacceptable. We would not stand for another country to try our citizens under those rules, and we should not stand for our own government to do so, either. Senator Dodd: Mr. President, the Administration and Republican leadership would have the American people believe that the War on Terror requires a choice between protecting America from terrorism and upholding the basic tenets upon which our country was founded — but not both. This canard has been showcased in every recent election cycle. I fully reject that reasoning. We can, and we must, balance our responsibilities to bring terrorists to justice, while at the same time protecting what it means to be America. To choose the rule of law over the passion of the moment takes courage. But it is the right thing to do if we are to uphold the values of equal justice and due process that are codified in our Constitution. Our founding fathers established the legal framework of our country on the premise that those in government are not infallible. America’s leaders knew this sixty years ago, when they determined how to deal with Nazi leaders guilty of horrendous crimes. There were strong and persuasive voices, at the time, crying out for the execution of these men who had commanded with ruthless efficiency the slaughter of six million innocent Jews and five million other innocent men, women, and children. After World War II, our country was forced to decide if the accused criminals deserved a trial or execution. This history is particularly personal to me. My father, Thomas Dodd, worked alongside Justice Robert Jackson in prosecuting these trials at Nuremberg. He viewed Nuremberg as one of the most pivotal moments in our history – where America chose to uphold the rule of law rather than succumb to rule of the mob. Let me be clear: these enemies of the United States were not given the opportunity to walk away from their crimes. Rather, they were given the right to face their accuser, the right to confront evidence against them, and the right to a fair trial. Underlying that decision was the conviction that this nation must not tailor its most fundamental principles to the conflict of the moment — and the recognition that if we did, we would be walking in the very footsteps of the enemies we despised. . . . As Justice Jackson said at Nuremberg, "we must never forget that the record on which we judge these defendants today is the record on which history will judge us tomorrow. To pass these defendants a poisoned chalice is to put it to our lips as well." Mr. President, to rubber-stamp the Administration’s bill would poison one of the most fundamental principles of American democracy. I urge my colleagues not to allow that to happen.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t you think it is time you let go brother? I want to, and I should try to. I guess I will try, though I have no idea how to do it. It’s like a story where someone keeps absorbing other people, and displaying the traits of those people. It’s not just my dad, although that’s the biggest part. My mom is still in my life, and still a very negative force. There’s also a lot of kids I can’t remember who made school so difficult. There’s also the people at college, who ostracized me. There’s my own loathing of my current level of strength. It seems everything in my past is painful proof that I should be destroyed. All this is absorbed, and reflecting back on my mind, in language so repulsive I’ve literally never described it to anyone. Well, I did repeat one rather benign sentence to someone once, when she asked me to describe what I say to myself. I told her, "You fucking piece of shit," and she laughed at me, so I’ve never shared my inner monologue with anyone else. It doesn’t really need to be explained. Just imagine that someone is standing in front of you, and you are so enraged at that person that you start shouting the most abusive things you can think of. IOW, what you say can’t express how much you hate that person, so you’re constantly in search of something more horrible to say. I do that all through the day, every day. My wakeup routine is: drink some pop, smoke some tobacco, feel the pain start again, say something to myself like, "You little cocksucking motherfucker, I’m going to fucking kill you," and then that sets the tone for the rest of the day. I really don’t know how to turn it off. It gets even worse than that. A while ago, I was pacing the apartment just talking nonsense, big words that didn’t mean anything, like, "The epitomy of the abstraction at hand is the furtherance of holography", or something like that, because it was comforting. Sometimes I imagine scenes of mass murder, even on an enormous scale. I think I’ve been doing this every day for about ten years, so I’m not a danger to anyone. It’s just very hard to live with. I really have no idea why I’m talking about this, and yet, it seems odd to realize that I’ve never told anyone this before, and I’ve been living with it for a long time. I don’t know if this will make it through to the group, as it’s kind of hardcore, but my mind is pretty hardcore now. Hope you’re well, Ian

‘Nuff said. kili — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Thanks, Kili. It’s such a weird night. Ian — I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just gonna ask where they’re goin’, and hook up with ‘em later. (Mitch Hedberg) http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Are you kidding they could’ve kept me there for months?

You hear things in mental hospitals. Last few times I was in, the word was that insurance companies were refusing to pay for more than a few days, and that you had to either be suicidal or homicidal to get in. Of course, as I was told this, my hospital stays were growing longer and longer. This is when I came to the conclusion that the rules were different for gov’t insurance, like mine. Medicare has a sort of, "Don’t ask, don’t tell" policy, it seems. Of course, this is in the US. There are some psych wards which are still pretty good, and people will lie and say they’re suicidal just to get in, at which point the pdocs will lie and say the patients need further supervision, in order to keep them as long as they need. Around here, though, no one wants in, and everyone wants out. There was one unfortunate woman I met last time around who checked herself in thinking she was going to get a bit of a vacation. Apparently she’d been to one of the better places in the past. She pretended to enjoy her stay for a while, until she finally just got the hell out of there as fast as possible. Middle-class corporate woman, who probably had rationed her vacation days for her stay. I hope she’s told someone about the conditions in there, as I’m doing now. I think I read somewhere that most of the mentally ill of the USA are either out in the streets or in jail.

Yes, that’s true, at least from what I’ve seen and heard. The homeless are people who’ve fallen through the cracks in the system, and there are many cracks. It could happen to me, too. If I got thrown out of this building, and I couldn’t get into AFC, I’d be on the streets. Unlikely, though. Part of what fills in the cracks in the system is friends and family, and I’m lucky to have both, and some even middle-class. The jail thing, well … that’s the American temperament. If my TV watching has taught me anything, it’s that in order to prove you’re not guilty by reason of mental defect, you have to prove you couldn’t tell the difference between right and wrong at the time you committed a crime, and that you’re incompetant to stand trial. This is, of course, ridiculous. There is no definition of mental illness that reduces it down to that level. In fact, tons of mentally ill people get thrown into prison, because society wants them to pay for their crimes. Prison is certainly the last place you want to be if you’re mentally ill. In the big maximum security prison in Michigan — Jackson — statistics say you’ll be raped twice on your first day in. If a person is sentenced to be removed from society, that’s one thing  … the sentence doesn’t include brutal trauma. The USA is actually on Amnesty International’s list of human rights abusers, because of our prison system. Let me see if I can find one story I read about on Usenet: http://tinyurl.com/jo6se I think it’s the same one, though the post is different. The post I read was the mother coming on to Usenet to plead her son’s case to the populace. I found it when doing research on Haldol. He had been given a big dose of Haldol, and his back and neck arched up and froze in that position, so they injected him with Cogentin, to stop his muscles from breaking his bones. There are people who are suffering terribly right now under gov’ts that claim to support every section of the citizenry. It’s just tragic. Ian — I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just gonna ask where they’re goin’, and hook up with ‘em later. (Mitch Hedberg) http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Don’t you think it is time you let go brother?

I want to, and I should try to. I guess I will try, though I have no idea how to do it. It’s like a story where someone keeps absorbing other people, and displaying the traits of those people. It’s not just my dad, although that’s the biggest part. My mom is still in my life, and still a very negative force. There’s also a lot of kids I can’t remember who made school so difficult. There’s also the people at college, who ostracized me. There’s my own loathing of my current level of strength. It seems everything in my past is painful proof that I should be destroyed. All this is absorbed, and reflecting back on my mind, in language so repulsive I’ve literally never described it to anyone. Well, I did repeat one rather benign sentence to someone once, when she asked me to describe what I say to myself. I told her, "You fucking piece of shit," and she laughed at me, so I’ve never shared my inner monologue with anyone else. It doesn’t really need to be explained. Just imagine that someone is standing in front of you, and you are so enraged at that person that you start shouting the most abusive things you can think of. IOW, what you say can’t express how much you hate that person, so you’re constantly in search of something more horrible to say. I do that all through the day, every day. My wakeup routine is: drink some pop, smoke some tobacco, feel the pain start again, say something to myself like, "You little cocksucking motherfucker, I’m going to fucking kill you," and then that sets the tone for the rest of the day. I really don’t know how to turn it off. It gets even worse than that. A while ago, I was pacing the apartment just talking nonsense, big words that didn’t mean anything, like, "The epitomy of the abstraction at hand is the furtherance of holography", or something like that, because it was comforting. Sometimes I imagine scenes of mass murder, even on an enormous scale. I think I’ve been doing this every day for about ten years, so I’m not a danger to anyone. It’s just very hard to live with. I really have no idea why I’m talking about this, and yet, it seems odd to realize that I’ve never told anyone this before, and I’ve been living with it for a long time. I don’t know if this will make it through to the group, as it’s kind of hardcore, but my mind is pretty hardcore now. Hope you’re well, Ian — I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just gonna ask where they’re goin’, and hook up with ‘em later. (Mitch Hedberg) http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I’m sorry I haven’t been on the group much, or been myself. My level of pain has jumped over the past few weeks. I’m extremely depressed and isolated, and talk to myself in the most abusive possible fashion. My thoughts are almost always extremely violent, both in character and content, and yet only the smallest amount of violence leaks out. This is in the form of getting angry with someone.

Hey brother.  I haven’t been around much either.  Been busy with the new kid, selling my house, and junk like that. There seems to be a part of me that acts like a father, and tells a second part of me, the child, not to listen to the third part of me, the abuser. The father is usually drowned out, though, and the abuser  pretends that the father is talking. I think the child is the most important of the three, as it’s the part that has to agree to cooperate with reality. So far, that’s not happening, because reality  has not proven itself trustworthy.

Don’t you think it is time you let go brother?  Stop letting you dad continue to abuse you.  Even though he is not doing it himself now, you are still letting him do it _through_ you.  Let that anger out and focus it on the situation of not being a victim any more.  Get a punching bag, and have an intense workout session and punch the crap out of the thing.   Yell, do what you want.  Victims of abuse have to come to a point in their life where they say "enough is enough" and stop the abuse.  You have nothing to beat yourself up over.  You are a good man and you have a good heart.  Let it go. Some local Baha’is are moving, and I got a bunch of their food. I’m in the middle of a box of good-ass chocolates from Europe.

Ummmmm, chocolate. Hope all are well,

Hang in there brother.  You are in my prayers. Ian

Jim — American Democracy: One more candidate than Communism JimD – Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I guess I was lucky. When I was incacerated (I called a helpline re: my suicidal thoughts) I had AD a lot worse. It was like I was perpetually in a PA. Now it’s just situational. The guy in charge, who was dressed like a clown (I’m not kidding, it was Halloween when I went in), told me if I could prove to him that I was calm, cool and collected so he wouldn’t have to resort to giving me ativan, he would let me out that evening. I had to eat dinner too (to prove the point). I never realized that they could’ve kept me there for weeks or months? Are you kidding they could’ve kept me there for months? One guy who was there left right after dinner. He seemed completely together too. He said he only came there for the food. I remember another young woman who just cried and cried about her baby, I tried to console her but it didn’t help, they had to sedate her. I think I read somewhere that most of the mentally ill of the USA are either out in the streets or in jail. — Doug

I didn’t realize all this. It shows you how messed up the American system of health care is Yeah, and I’m not exaggerating, either. Around here, people with private insurance usually only stay a few days, while people with gov’t insurance stay the maximum, which is usually just under a month. They *could* keep you longer, but they let you out in time to receive your check.

SNIPPED Ian — I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just gonna ask where they’re goin’, and hook up with ‘em later. (Mitch Hedberg) http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Take care of the child within even if you have to stomp your feet and yell a bit.

I’m tryin’, Frizz. Thing is, these are all aspects of the same personality, so, in all likelihood, there is just the child, who is both abusing himself, and trying to stop the abuse. He is also 34, and much different than a real child. He’s seen most of everything, and is shaken up. Plus people stop protecting you when you reach a certain age, so he’s all by himself. Ian — I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just gonna ask where they’re goin’, and hook up with ‘em later. (Mitch Hedberg) http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I didn’t realize all this. It shows you how messed up the American system of health care is, if you CAN’T ask for help when you need it most… — Doug

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – maybe you could make an appointment w/your therapist/psych if you’re feeling this bad. You should at least give them a call to tell them how you’re feeling. I don’t think I should do that, because I don’t want to be hospitalized. If they knew what was going on in my head, that’s the first thing they would do. Around here the psych ward is just a holding tank. They hold you for three reasons: one, to avoid any liability; two, to milk the insurance companies as much as possible; three, to get you into the adult foster care system. I would lose my apartment, IOW, if I went into the hospital. So I can’t ask for professional help. I’ve got to stick this one out. Ian — I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just gonna ask where they’re goin’, and hook up with ‘em later. (Mitch Hedberg) http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I didn’t realize all this. It shows you how messed up the American system of health care is

Yeah, and I’m not exaggerating, either. Around here, people with private insurance usually only stay a few days, while people with gov’t insurance stay the maximum, which is usually just under a month. They *could* keep you longer, but they let you out in time to receive your check. They have a neat little trick around here. After you’ve been in a few days, the public defender shows up with some paperwork, and tells you that you have the right to protest your incarceration. The problem is, that if you go to court and try to get let out, then all bets are off. They tell you only 2% of people who fight it in court actually win, and if you lose, you typically stay for months on end. If I were to sign a piece of paper, giving up all my rights, I would be on the fast track, and would probably get out in a few weeks. On the one hand, this is the public defender trying to lessen his/her case load. It’s not a joke that, in the US, if you’re stuck at a trial with a court-appointed attorney, you’d just as well pull your trousers down and lay your member on the table, exclaiming, as loud as possible: "This is my dick." You’d end up with the same results. On the other hand, this is just the way the system works. Pdocs on the inside don’t like it when you have rights. They like to keep all their toy soldiers in a row. It’s a power trip. So you sign the paper, and put everything in the hands of your psychiatrist. Last time I was in, I was immediately given a new psychiatrist (the one who ran things over there). The first thing he did was take me off the five psych meds my old pdoc had me on, cold turkey, and switch me to a bunch of new ones. Of course, they also take away your nicotine, except for the occasional break, and they take away your caffeine. They also expect you to sleep on a regular schedule. It’s no surprise that, after a few days, you fit the inflated diagnosis handed down by the pdoc, and actually *do* have to stay for a few weeks. If they only left you alone, they would see you were coping. There used to be a time when psych wards were staffed by psychologists. Maybe there still are some, but not around here. Every single staff member is a nurse, some on rotation, some who have been there forever. You’re forced to go to groups, but groups are nothing more than reading through xerox sheets of various self-help methods. No one there actually has any idea how to treat the mentally ill. They can also be pretty nasty. I was put in because I’d tried to get high on my Ativan, and somehow the lines got crossed, and they thought I was trying to commit suicide. That problem didn’t get straightened out for four weeks, despite telling everyone I could what the situation was. I kept giving away the URL to my books site to staffers, and begging them to look at it, because it would prove my sanity. After all, it’s a supremely sane website, and the code is absolutely perfect. I don’t know. I went up to the nurses’ station one night, to say I couldn’t sleep, and I saw my site up on the computer, with nurses gathered around. One of them said sarcastically, "Well this certainly proves his sanity!" Then I said something, and they all turned around, embarrassed. I made sure to humiliate that guy as much as possible the rest of my stay. Then there was the old lady who passed out in the common room and hit her head on a table. I didn’t see it, but I heard the bang when her head hit. Someone ran out and said, "So and so’s passed out and hit her head on a table!" The nurses came in, dragged her out, and propped her up in a wheelchair, leaving her in the hallway until she came to. I kept telling them she’d hit her head on a table, but they only replied, "She never hit her head on the table." There’s lots more stories, but this is not a novel. I guess such is the treatment in St. Joe, Michigan. There was a good place in Chicago I used to go to, but the guy who ran it, my old pdoc, ended up falling off the wagon, becoming a crackhead, and collapsing in his office, hitting his head on a table (strangely enough) and ending up in a coma for a week. He now lives in a group home, which would be the sweetest irony, except he never deserved such a fate. There are a lot of pdocs who do deserve that, but not him. He was a cool cat. The worst place was "The Two Hallways" in Detroit. I won’t even go into that, except to say that my inside girlfriend was raped by her roommate, and absolutely nothing was done about it. These places are horrible. Insurance companies don’t want to pay for real treatment, and so the hospitals just get worse and worse. Ian — I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just gonna ask where they’re goin’, and hook up with ‘em later. (Mitch Hedberg) http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

We don’t have control over what our mind initially things BUT we can challenge these thoughts and turn them into a positive thing.

It’s like someone standing over me and beating me. That’s a tough thing to find a silver lining in. I do try to challenge the thoughts, but they usually respond by saying, "Who are *you* to say that?" It’s a weird existence, that’s for sure. :-/ Ian — I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just gonna ask where they’re goin’, and hook up with ‘em later. (Mitch Hedberg) http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

<<<<<<<<<<Ian Take care of the child within even if you have to stomp your feet and yell a bit.  Get lots of rest too and know that this will pass.  It ain’t easy but you can handle it.  Keep posting too. -frizz (sending vibes of strength) — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hang in there, Ian.  I’m sorry you are having such a rough time.  We’re here for you.

Thanks, Anne. I’m sure things will eventually calm down. Ian — I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just gonna ask where they’re goin’, and hook up with ‘em later. (Mitch Hedberg) http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

maybe you could make an appointment w/your therapist/psych if you’re feeling this bad. You should at least give them a call to tell them how you’re feeling.

I don’t think I should do that, because I don’t want to be hospitalized. If they knew what was going on in my head, that’s the first thing they would do. Around here the psych ward is just a holding tank. They hold you for three reasons: one, to avoid any liability; two, to milk the insurance companies as much as possible; three, to get you into the adult foster care system. I would lose my apartment, IOW, if I went into the hospital. So I can’t ask for professional help. I’ve got to stick this one out. Ian — I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just gonna ask where they’re goin’, and hook up with ‘em later. (Mitch Hedberg) http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Maybe if you try to focus on forgiveness for a while, the anger will ease.

I have no idea what I did wrong, though. Ian — I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just gonna ask where they’re goin’, and hook up with ‘em later. (Mitch Hedberg) http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Ian, maybe you could make an appointment w/your therapist/psych if you’re feeling this bad. You should at least give them a call to tell them how you’re feeling. — Doug

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m sorry I haven’t been on the group much, or been myself. My level of pain has jumped over the past few weeks. I’m extremely depressed and isolated, and talk to myself in the most abusive possible fashion. My thoughts are almost always extremely violent, both in character and content, and yet only the smallest amount of violence leaks out. This is in the form of getting angry with someone. There seems to be a part of me that acts like a father, and tells a second part of me, the child, not to listen to the third part of me, the abuser. The father is usually drowned out, though, and the abuser pretends that the father is talking. I think the child is the most important of the three, as it’s the part that has to agree to cooperate with reality. So far, that’s not happening, because reality has not proven itself trustworthy. Some local Baha’is are moving, and I got a bunch of their food. I’m in the middle of a box of good-ass chocolates from Europe. That’s the good aspect to the day. I also just woke up and it was dark outside, which created a great sense of relief. But overall, I’m really struggling hard, and needed to say this to the group. I feel I’m not expressing in this post just how extreme this experience is, but I don’t know what I’ve left out. Hope all are well, Ian — I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just gonna ask where they’re goin’, and hook up with ‘em later. (Mitch Hedberg) http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I think many of us have been there before.  Just try to breathe and know that you’ll get through it.  Try to post if you need any help.  We’re here. We’ll listen.

Thanks, Kili. I guess I can try to communicate more, though the strain makes it very difficult. Ian — I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just gonna ask where they’re goin’, and hook up with ‘em later. (Mitch Hedberg) http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m sorry I haven’t been on the group much, or been myself. My level of pain has jumped over the past few weeks. I’m extremely depressed and isolated, and talk to myself in the most abusive possible fashion. My thoughts are almost always extremely violent, both in character and content, and yet only the smallest amount of violence leaks out. This is in the form of getting angry with someone. There seems to be a part of me that acts like a father, and tells a second part of me, the child, not to listen to the third part of me, the abuser. The father is usually drowned out, though, and the abuser pretends that the father is talking. I think the child is the most important of the three, as it’s the part that has to agree to cooperate with reality. So far, that’s not happening, because reality has not proven itself trustworthy. Some local Baha’is are moving, and I got a bunch of their food. I’m in the middle of a box of good-ass chocolates from Europe. That’s the good aspect to the day. I also just woke up and it was dark outside, which created a great sense of relief. But overall, I’m really struggling hard, and needed to say this to the group. I feel I’m not expressing in this post just how extreme this experience is, but I don’t know what I’ve left out. Hope all are well, Ian

{{{{{{{ Ian }}}}}}} I think many of us have been there before.  Just try to breathe and know that you’ll get through it.  Try to post if you need any help.  We’re here. We’ll listen. kili — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Ian, I am sorry you are feeling out of sorts.  The mind can play a tug-of-war with us.  We don’t have control over what our mind initially things BUT we can challenge these thoughts and turn them into a positive thing. Take care and vent all you need. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m sorry I haven’t been on the group much, or been myself. My level of pain has jumped over the past few weeks. I’m extremely depressed and isolated, and talk to myself in the most abusive possible fashion. My thoughts are almost always extremely violent, both in character and content, and yet only the smallest amount of violence leaks out. This is in the form of getting angry with someone. There seems to be a part of me that acts like a father, and tells a second part of me, the child, not to listen to the third part of me, the abuser. The father is usually drowned out, though, and the abuser pretends that the father is talking. I think the child is the most important of the three, as it’s the part that has to agree to cooperate with reality. So far, that’s not happening, because reality has not proven itself trustworthy. Some local Baha’is are moving, and I got a bunch of their food. I’m in the middle of a box of good-ass chocolates from Europe. That’s the good aspect to the day. I also just woke up and it was dark outside, which created a great sense of relief. But overall, I’m really struggling hard, and needed to say this to the group. I feel I’m not expressing in this post just how extreme this experience is, but I don’t know what I’ve left out. Hope all are well, Ian — I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just gonna ask where they’re goin’, and hook up with ‘em later. (Mitch Hedberg) http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I’m sorry I haven’t been on the group much, or been myself. My level of pain has jumped over the past few weeks. I’m extremely depressed and isolated, and talk to myself in the most abusive possible fashion. My thoughts are almost always extremely violent, both in character and content, and yet only the smallest amount of violence leaks out. This is in the form of getting angry with someone. There seems to be a part of me that acts like a father, and tells a second part of me, the child, not to listen to the third part of me, the abuser. The father is usually drowned out, though, and the abuser pretends that the father is talking. I think the child is the most important of the three, as it’s the part that has to agree to cooperate with reality. So far, that’s not happening, because reality has not proven itself trustworthy. Some local Baha’is are moving, and I got a bunch of their food. I’m in the middle of a box of good-ass chocolates from Europe. That’s the good aspect to the day. I also just woke up and it was dark outside, which created a great sense of relief. But overall, I’m really struggling hard, and needed to say this to the group. I feel I’m not expressing in this post just how extreme this experience is, but I don’t know what I’ve left out. Hope all are well, Ian — I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just gonna ask where they’re goin’, and hook up with ‘em later. (Mitch Hedberg) http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hang in there, Ian.  I’m sorry you are having such a rough time.  We’re here for you. xxoo Anne — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m sorry I haven’t been on the group much, or been myself. My level of pain has jumped over the past few weeks. I’m extremely depressed and isolated, and talk to myself in the most abusive possible fashion. My thoughts are almost always extremely violent, both in character and content, and yet only the smallest amount of violence leaks out. This is in the form of getting angry with someone. There seems to be a part of me that acts like a father, and tells a second part of me, the child, not to listen to the third part of me, the abuser. The father is usually drowned out, though, and the abuser pretends that the father is talking. I think the child is the most important of the three, as it’s the part that has to agree to cooperate with reality. So far, that’s not happening, because reality has not proven itself trustworthy. Some local Baha’is are moving, and I got a bunch of their food. I’m in the middle of a box of good-ass chocolates from Europe. That’s the good aspect to the day. I also just woke up and it was dark outside, which created a great sense of relief. But overall, I’m really struggling hard, and needed to say this to the group. I feel I’m not expressing in this post just how extreme this experience is, but I don’t know what I’ve left out. Hope all are well, Ian

I’m sorry you’re going through this, Ian. It sounds to me like you are deeply angry with yourself over something, or some things.  I hope you can forgive yourself or otherwise eliminate the anger so you can feel better.  If you can take one step in that direction, the next step will be a bit easier to take, and the next one after that.  Maybe if you try to focus on forgiveness for a while, the anger will ease. http://www.12stepworkbook.org/pub/Workshops/Forgiveness.pdf Might be useful for you. Take good care of yourself, including actually being nice to yourself. Deirdre — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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Irrefutable proof, straight from Clinton’s lips that he turned down UBL. Just think, if he would have been forward thinking enough (libs never are, they always wit till AFTER something happens) and took UBL when Sudan offfdered him, there would have been no 9/11. Read it and weep, libs, you caused 9/11 and ruined our chance for peace ed in our time and moved up the end of the world by some 20 years. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1107404/posts?page=36 CLINTON TURNED DOWN SUDAN’S OFFERS OF BIN LADEN HEAR CLINTON’S SECRETLY TAPED "ADMISSION" NOW by Mia T, 3.28.04 "The Sudanese wanted America to start dealing with them again. They released him [bin Laden]. At the time, ‘96, he had committed no crime against America, so I did not bring him here because we had no basis on which to hold him, though we knew he wanted to commit crimes against America. So I pleaded with the Saudis to take him, ’cause they could have; but they thought it was a hot potato. They didn’t and that’s how he wound up in Afghanistan." bill clinton Sunday, Aug. 11, 2002 Clinton Reveals on Secret Audio: I Nixed Bin Laden Extradition Offer "The instant that second plane hit, I said to the person with whom I was speaking, ‘Bin Laden did this.’ I knew immediately. I know what this network can do." bill clinton To hear Clinton now say "We must do more to reduce the pool of potential terrorists" is thus beyond farce. He had numerous opportunities to reduce that pool, and he blew it. A Fish Rots from the Head Investor’s Business Daily Clinton’s failure to grasp the opportunity to unravel increasingly organized extremists, coupled with Berger’s assessments of their potential to directly threaten the U.S., represents one of the most serious foreign policy failures in American history. Clinton Let Bin Laden Slip Away and Metastasize MANSOOR IJAZ December 5, 2001 isten carefully to clinton’s "admission." Watch the flash movie. Diagram the sentences. It’s the classic clinton snake-oil sales pitch that exploits liberal credulousness and the gestalt concepts of structural economy and closure (the tendency to perceive incomplete forms as complete). This allows clinton to tell the story of his utter failure to fight terrorism, his failure to take bin Laden from Sudan, his repeated failures, in fact, to decapitate an incipient and still stoppable al Qaeda, without explicitly admitting it. "The Sudanese wanted America to start dealing with them again; [so] they released him [to America]." Note that the linkage between the above two sentences and the indirect object of the second sentence are each implied, giving clinton plausible deniability. "[H]e had committed no crime against America, so I did not bring him here because we had no basis on which to hold him, though we knew he wanted to commit crimes against America." This position is surprising on two counts: clinton has never been one to allow the rule of law get in his way. Although bin Laden had repeatedly declared war on America during clinton’s tenure, clinton treats terrorism not as a war but as a law enforcement problem, which, by definition is defensive, after-the-fact and fatally-too-late. The impeached ex-president fails to understand that when terrorists declare war on you

Stay Away From Medical Doctors …UNLESS You Know About Them ‘ How To Read The License Of Medical Doctors – Part III                    Nor does their license warn the public in this                    wise:                         "Before you visit a licensed medical doctor,                          be sure to KNOW MUCH MORE THAN HE (or she)                          does, about possibilities of treatment and                          about likely causes of your discomfort,                          your illness or your suffering."                                In general, one could state:                                The more a medical doctor claims                                to be an expert, the less he                                in actual fact can be expected                                to be knowledgeable [to know things                                he should know].                                He can’t even admit what he does                                NOT know – which is a very low                                level of knowledge indeed.  *(6) ‘                                The most "expert" medical doctors                                do not even know THAT they do not                                know so very much regarding the                                actions they perform on their                                patients.                                      But this also did not hinder                                      them in the Middle Ages, or                                      at the time of Hippocrates,                                      in claiming to be experts…                                      "THE experts," even.                                Medical doctors, then as now, are                                only a small subset of those who                                can heal.                                But they use the vilest Criminal                                Minds, to get "accepted," that                                "only they can heal," while                                in fact THEY are quacks and charlatans                                themselves, as is                                obvious from their total lack of                                the most vital knowledge and skill                                of their profession. ‘                                      Any even faintly educated                                      professional – and, certainly                                      even more so, the layman who                                      suffers it – knows, that                                      the field of medical science                                      is lacking indeed in the most                                      basic knowledge about keeping                                      people healthy,                                      and lacking                                           – not only in the ability                                             to heal, but also lacking,                                             almost completely –                                      in understanding those type of                                      diseases that prevail nowadays                                      in our advanced society. ‘ Koos Nolst Trenite "Cause Trinity" human rights philosopher and poet                                        ’Solomon’s wisdom was greater                                                   than the wisdom of                                              all the men of the East,                                                          and greater                                         than all the wisdom of Egypt.’                                                         1 Kings 4:30      ’Current State of Mental Health Care And Understanding       – Consequences For Decision Makers, Caretakers And Caregivers’       {HRI 20021209-V3.1} – (9 Dec 2002 – Version 3.1 on 27 Sept 2005) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/98b407408d4daf50?fwc=1        (full text:) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/98b407408d4daf50?dmode=sou… ‘ Footnote: (6)  ’Explaining The Scale Of Sanity’ {HRI 20040619-V3.4}         (19 June 2004) (Version 3.4 on 2 Sept 2004) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/alt.education/msg/7ee775b1a7d5b10f?… ‘ Earlier Quotes from {HRI 20021209-V3.1} :      ’Are ALL Licensed Medical Doctors Criminal? No!’        (13 February 2006) (Quote from HRI 20021209-V3.1) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.anthropology/msg/ec75ccee2e34a304?…      ’Medical Doctors Can Seriously Damage Your Health’        (15 February 2006) (Quote from HRI 20021209-V3.1) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.anthropology/msg/c88214dabda6d7fe?…      ’Stay Away From Medical Doctors …UNLESS You Know About Them’        (9 February 2006) (Quote from HRI 20021209-V3.1) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/12bfd20d19196e11?fwc=1      ’The Licensed Medical Doctors ARE The Dangerous Quacks,       and Charlatans All’        (10 February 2006) (Quote from HRI 20021209-V3.1) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/04006a8681abc39d?fwc=1      ’A Bottomless Money Drain: The Licensed Medical Trade – Medical       Research, Charities, Foundations, Universities And Hospitals       CONTEMPT Of Your Suffering And Of Mankind’        (13 February 2006) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/6d0a6cea040b6719?fwc=1 ‘ References:      ’Prices of Medical Drugs Compared To Manufacturing Costs And        To Country Of Sale – The "Bill Gates Factor" ‘         (5 February 2005 – Version 2.3.1 on 8 Feb 2005) http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.canada/msg/938b77517250042…      ’Explaining The Scale Of Sanity’ {HRI 20040619-V3.4}         (19 June 2004) (Version 3.4 on 2 Sept 2004) http://groups.google.com/group/alt.education/msg/7ee775b1a7d5b10f?fwc=1      ’What IS Depression or Lethargy’ {HRI 20041107-V2.2}         (7 November 2004 – Version 2.2 on 14 Dec 2004) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/e3f79cb2f78d2145?fwc=1      ’The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth – Life Energy Particles        - Perception At A Distance’ {HRI 20010829-pi9-V2.0}         (29 August 2001 – part issue 9 Version 2.0 on 21 Aug 2005) http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/3c571f55d616… ‘      ’The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth’ {HRI 20010829} (9 parts issued) http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/ca03e63aa716… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/660053d9538d… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/2529732655e6… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/a5c1ca01fa70… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/8d4e1bb6424a… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/70dd57d6d11d… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/b030e02be2ba… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/48c04344037d… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/3c571f55d616…      ’The Trinity Of Science – Truth, Love and Beauty’         {HRI 20030307-pi-1-V2.1} (7 Mar 2003 – Ver. 2.1 on 17 Oct 2003) http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.europe/msg/4129fa4f1a67840… ‘ Verification:             http://www.angelfire.com/space/platoworld Copyright 2002-2006 by Koos Nolst Trenite – human rights philosopher  and poet This is ‘learnware’ – it may not be altered, and it is free for  anyone who learns from it, and (even if he can not learn from it)  who passes it on unaltered, and with this message included,  to others who might be able to learn from it. None of my writings may be used, ever, to support any political  or religious or scientific agenda, but only to educate, and to  encourage people to judge un-dominated and for themselves,  about any organizations or individuals. Send free-of-Envy and free-of-Hate, Beautiful e-mails to:  PlatoWorld at Lycos.com   (address unreadable for Internet robots

Response:

Stay Away From Medical Doctors …UNLESS You Know About Them ‘ How To Read The License Of Medical Doctors – Part III                   Nor does their license warn the public in this                   wise:                        "Before you visit a licensed medical doctor,                         be sure to KNOW MUCH MORE THAN HE (or she)                         does, about possibilities of treatment and                         about likely causes of your discomfort,                         your illness or your suffering."

Then, why consult a doctor at all? Maybe we should just make an appoint with you when we need to receive treatment for a health problem. How long have you been writing for comics?

Response:

Stay Away From Medical Doctors …UNLESS You Know About Them

Medical doctors are like fire. The can be very dangerous but very necessary at the same time. When I was about to have surgery done it took me awhile to accept the idea of someone rummaging around in my head. Soon I had to decide to trust my doctor. I know good specialists are small. I’ve seen many Neurologists over the last 40 years. Only four of them were good doctors and humans. The rest are ego-maniacs that don’t want to accept that they claim to know about something that is still a mystery to human knowledge. But even the worst I saw had vastly more knowledge than I did. They need to be used as a tool. Used as necessary but within the limits of logic and reason. Good carpenters their hammers to pound nails. They doesn’t trust their hammer to tell them the size of the nail or when to use a screw instead. Know your medical situation as well as possible. The good doctors don’t mind questions and usually encourage them. The ego-maniacs don’t want anything that even hints of a challenge around them.  The good doctors won’t let their egos interfere. Many doctors really dis-like a patient that looks up to them like god and blindly takes any remedy they are told. They prefer a decision was made between the patient and the doctor. Sometimes they encourage the use of alternate medications to supplement their medical remedies. Be aware that doctors are human, whether they deny it or not. Their bank of information is based on what humans knew in the past. Mistakes can be made and truth can be ignored. — Dave Keays

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The topic I posted as per below mentioned link can be relevant:- http://groups.google.co.in/group/sci.med.cardiology/browse_frm/thread… Since they have to deal with live humans not stuffed toys, strict norms about time devotion per patient(may charge as per time spent), No waiting(to be strict as per appointment time otherwise compensation )should be made, capabilites should be occasionally checked as per latest research(just equal to research people) and penalities for negligencies should be regulated by central regulatory authorities–esp. in more populated and under-developed areas. This will avoid monopoly and concentration of patients to one or few specialists for all stages and will justify the treatments. In short, patients should be equally respected and taken care off. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stay Away From Medical Doctors …UNLESS You Know About Them ‘ How To Read The License Of Medical Doctors – Part III                    Nor does their license warn the public in this                    wise:                         "Before you visit a licensed medical doctor,                          be sure to KNOW MUCH MORE THAN HE (or she)                          does, about possibilities of treatment and                          about likely causes of your discomfort,                          your illness or your suffering."                                In general, one could state:                                The more a medical doctor claims                                to be an expert, the less he                                in actual fact can be expected                                to be knowledgeable [to know things                                he should know].                                He can’t even admit what he does                                NOT know – which is a very low                                level of knowledge indeed.  *(6) ‘                                The most "expert" medical doctors                                do not even know THAT they do not                                know so very much regarding the                                actions they perform on their                                patients.                                      But this also did not hinder                                      them in the Middle Ages, or                                      at the time of Hippocrates,                                      in claiming to be experts…                                      "THE experts," even.                                Medical doctors, then as now, are                                only a small subset of those who                                can heal.                                But they use the vilest Criminal                                Minds, to get "accepted," that                                "only they can heal," while                                in fact THEY are quacks and charlatans                                themselves, as is                                obvious from their total lack of                                the most vital knowledge and skill                                of their profession. ‘                                      Any even faintly educated                                      professional – and, certainly                                      even more so, the layman who                                      suffers it – knows, that                                      the field of medical science                                      is lacking indeed in the most                                      basic knowledge about keeping                                      people healthy,                                      and lacking                                           – not only in the ability                                             to heal, but also lacking,                                             almost completely –                                      in understanding those type of                                      diseases that prevail nowadays                                      in our advanced society. ‘ Koos Nolst Trenite "Cause Trinity" human rights philosopher and poet                                        ’Solomon’s wisdom was greater                                                   than the wisdom of                                              all the men of the East,                                                          and greater                                         than all the wisdom of Egypt.’                                                         1 Kings 4:30      ’Current State of Mental Health Care And Understanding       – Consequences For Decision Makers, Caretakers And Caregivers’       {HRI 20021209-V3.1} – (9 Dec 2002 – Version 3.1 on 27 Sept 2005) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/98b407408d4daf50?fwc=1        (full text:) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/98b407408d4daf50?dmode=sou… ‘ Footnote: (6)  ’Explaining The Scale Of Sanity’ {HRI 20040619-V3.4}         (19 June 2004) (Version 3.4 on 2 Sept 2004) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/alt.education/msg/7ee775b1a7d5b10f?… ‘ Earlier Quotes from {HRI 20021209-V3.1} :      ’Are ALL Licensed Medical Doctors Criminal? No!’        (13 February 2006) (Quote from HRI 20021209-V3.1) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.anthropology/msg/ec75ccee2e34a304?…      ’Medical Doctors Can Seriously Damage Your Health’        (15 February 2006) (Quote from HRI 20021209-V3.1) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.anthropology/msg/c88214dabda6d7fe?…      ’Stay Away From Medical Doctors …UNLESS You Know About Them’        (9 February 2006) (Quote from HRI 20021209-V3.1) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/12bfd20d19196e11?fwc=1      ’The Licensed Medical Doctors ARE The Dangerous Quacks,       and Charlatans All’        (10 February 2006) (Quote from HRI 20021209-V3.1) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/04006a8681abc39d?fwc=1      ’A Bottomless Money Drain: The Licensed Medical Trade – Medical       Research, Charities, Foundations, Universities And Hospitals       CONTEMPT Of Your Suffering And Of Mankind’        (13 February 2006) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/6d0a6cea040b6719?fwc=1 ‘ References:      ’Prices of Medical Drugs Compared To Manufacturing Costs And        To Country Of Sale – The "Bill Gates Factor" ‘         (5 February 2005 – Version 2.3.1 on 8 Feb 2005) http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.canada/msg/938b77517250042…      ’Explaining The Scale Of Sanity’ {HRI 20040619-V3.4}         (19 June 2004) (Version 3.4 on 2 Sept 2004) http://groups.google.com/group/alt.education/msg/7ee775b1a7d5b10f?fwc=1      ’What IS Depression or Lethargy’ {HRI 20041107-V2.2}         (7 November 2004 – Version 2.2 on 14 Dec 2004) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/e3f79cb2f78d2145?fwc=1      ’The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth – Life Energy Particles        - Perception At A Distance’ {HRI 20010829-pi9-V2.0}         (29 August 2001 – part issue 9 Version 2.0 on 21 Aug 2005) http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/3c571f55d616… ‘      ’The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth’ {HRI 20010829} (9 parts issued) http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/ca03e63aa716… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/660053d9538d… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/2529732655e6… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/a5c1ca01fa70… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/8d4e1bb6424a… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/70dd57d6d11d… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/b030e02be2ba… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/48c04344037d… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/3c571f55d616…      ’The Trinity Of Science – Truth, Love and Beauty’         {HRI 20030307-pi-1-V2.1} (7 Mar 2003 – Ver. 2.1 on 17 Oct 2003) http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.europe/msg/4129fa4f1a67840… ‘ Verification:             http://www.angelfire.com/space/platoworld Copyright 2002-2006 by Koos Nolst Trenite – human rights philosopher  and poet This is ‘learnware’ – it may not be altered, and it is free for  anyone who learns from it, and (even if he can not learn from it)  who passes it on unaltered, and with this message included,  to others who might be able to learn from it. None of my writings may be used, ever, to support any political  or religious or scientific agenda, but only to educate, and to  encourage people to judge un-dominated and for themselves,  about any organizations or individuals. Send free-of-Envy and free-of-Hate, Beautiful e-mails to:  PlatoWorld at Lycos.com   (address unreadable for Internet robots

Response:

Are you an idiot or something. How is the doctors fault for lacking some knowledge you need them to have. No one person can have all the answers. It is YOUR responsibility to know as you said. They do the best they can for what they know. This doesn’t mean they are charlatans. It is always wise to know everything you can about your problem before seeing a Dr. and it is always wise to see the best if you know. It however is foolish and against any biblical principal to consider who you are seeing a criminal. ((("But they use the vilest Criminal Minds, to get "accepted," that "only they can heal," while in fact THEY are quacks and charlatans themselves")))) I have had some bad ones and some good ones too. If your mad at some docs tell us your story but telling us that they are all bad…. well it makes me wonder if you are very very young. Her is another great statement by Koos whom you quoted. "Anyone who denies the existence of telepathy is someone who has a hidden agenda, and that hidden agenda is to harm life – your life, his own life, anyone’s life." Why would you follow someone who was put in an asylum and kicked out of scientology for being a fruit loop. And now states he is channelling the spirit of L Ron Hubbard from a distant galaxy. Takes all kinds

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stay Away From Medical Doctors …UNLESS You Know About Them ‘ How To Read The License Of Medical Doctors – Part III                   Nor does their license warn the public in this                   wise:                        "Before you visit a licensed medical doctor,                         be sure to KNOW MUCH MORE THAN HE (or she)                         does, about possibilities of treatment and                         about likely causes of your discomfort,                         your illness or your suffering."                               In general, one could state:                               The more a medical doctor claims                               to be an expert, the less he                               in actual fact can be expected                               to be knowledgeable [to know things                               he should know].                               He can’t even admit what he does                               NOT know – which is a very low                               level of knowledge indeed.  *(6) ‘                               The most "expert" medical doctors                               do not even know THAT they do not                               know so very much regarding the                               actions they perform on their                               patients.                                     But this also did not hinder                                     them in the Middle Ages, or                                     at the time of Hippocrates,                                     in claiming to be experts…                                     "THE experts," even.                               Medical doctors, then as now, are                               only a small subset of those who                               can heal.                               But they use the vilest Criminal                               Minds, to get "accepted," that                               "only they can heal," while                               in fact THEY are quacks and charlatans                               themselves, as is                               obvious from their total lack of                               the most vital knowledge and skill                               of their profession. ‘                                     Any even faintly educated                                     professional – and, certainly                                     even more so, the layman who                                     suffers it – knows, that                                     the field of medical science                                     is lacking indeed in the most                                     basic knowledge about keeping                                     people healthy,                                     and lacking                                          - not only in the ability                                            to heal, but also lacking,                                            almost completely –                                     in understanding those type of                                     diseases that prevail nowadays                                     in our advanced society. ‘ Koos Nolst Trenite "Cause Trinity" human rights philosopher and poet                                       ‘Solomon’s wisdom was greater                                                  than the wisdom of                                             all the men of the East,                                                         and greater                                        than all the wisdom of Egypt.’                                                        1 Kings 4:30     ‘Current State of Mental Health Care And Understanding      - Consequences For Decision Makers, Caretakers And Caregivers’      {HRI 20021209-V3.1} – (9 Dec 2002 – Version 3.1 on 27 Sept 2005) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/98b407408d4daf50?fwc=1       (full text:) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/98b407408d4daf50?dmode=sou… ‘ Footnote: (6)  ’Explaining The Scale Of Sanity’ {HRI 20040619-V3.4}        (19 June 2004) (Version 3.4 on 2 Sept 2004) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/alt.education/msg/7ee775b1a7d5b10f?… ‘ Earlier Quotes from {HRI 20021209-V3.1} :     ‘Are ALL Licensed Medical Doctors Criminal? No!’       (13 February 2006) (Quote from HRI 20021209-V3.1) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.anthropology/msg/ec75ccee2e34a304?…     ‘Medical Doctors Can Seriously Damage Your Health’       (15 February 2006) (Quote from HRI 20021209-V3.1) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.anthropology/msg/c88214dabda6d7fe?…     ‘Stay Away From Medical Doctors …UNLESS You Know About Them’       (9 February 2006) (Quote from HRI 20021209-V3.1) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/12bfd20d19196e11?fwc=1     ‘The Licensed Medical Doctors ARE The Dangerous Quacks,      and Charlatans All’       (10 February 2006) (Quote from HRI 20021209-V3.1) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/04006a8681abc39d?fwc=1     ‘A Bottomless Money Drain: The Licensed Medical Trade – Medical      Research, Charities, Foundations, Universities And Hospitals      CONTEMPT Of Your Suffering And Of Mankind’       (13 February 2006) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/6d0a6cea040b6719?fwc=1 ‘ References:     ‘Prices of Medical Drugs Compared To Manufacturing Costs And       To Country Of Sale – The "Bill Gates Factor" ‘        (5 February 2005 – Version 2.3.1 on 8 Feb 2005) http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.canada/msg/938b77517250042…     ‘Explaining The Scale Of Sanity’ {HRI 20040619-V3.4}        (19 June 2004) (Version 3.4 on 2 Sept 2004) http://groups.google.com/group/alt.education/msg/7ee775b1a7d5b10f?fwc=1     ‘What IS Depression or Lethargy’ {HRI 20041107-V2.2}        (7 November 2004 – Version 2.2 on 14 Dec 2004) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/e3f79cb2f78d2145?fwc=1     ‘The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth – Life Energy Particles       – Perception At A Distance’ {HRI 20010829-pi9-V2.0}        (29 August 2001 – part issue 9 Version 2.0 on 21 Aug 2005) http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/3c571f55d616… ‘     ‘The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth’ {HRI 20010829} (9 parts issued) http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/ca03e63aa716… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/660053d9538d… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/2529732655e6… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/a5c1ca01fa70… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/8d4e1bb6424a… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/70dd57d6d11d… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/b030e02be2ba… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/48c04344037d… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/3c571f55d616…     ‘The Trinity Of Science – Truth, Love and Beauty’        {HRI 20030307-pi-1-V2.1} (7 Mar 2003 – Ver. 2.1 on 17 Oct 2003) http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.europe/msg/4129fa4f1a67840… ‘ Verification:            http://www.angelfire.com/space/platoworld Copyright 2002-2006 by Koos Nolst Trenite – human rights philosopher and poet This is ‘learnware’ – it may not be altered, and it is free for anyone who learns from it, and (even if he can not learn from it) who passes it on unaltered, and with this message included, to others who might be able to learn from it. None of my writings may be used, ever, to support any political or religious or scientific agenda, but only to educate, and to encourage people to judge un-dominated and for themselves, about any organizations or individuals. Send free-of-Envy and free-of-Hate, Beautiful e-mails to: PlatoWorld at Lycos.com  (address unreadable for Internet robots

… read more »

Response:

Where’s Leonardo Galileo ~ ? Where ya been ~ ? ~ * ~ Blog, I’ll warrant ye, or dog? Who knows. Pass the grog! But if ye see me lost pup, please bring that scurvy dog home! I got Leon a brand-new bone, with a chest full a’ booty. http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo

Response:

A Bottomless Money Drain: The Licensed Medical Trade – Medical Research, Charities, Foundations, Universities And Hospitals CONTEMPT Of Your Suffering And Of Mankind

Looks like a good basis.  Too bad you don’t know how to post a cut and paste and you thus make it a pain in the rear to read and thus not read past the first half page.

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By the way, Which Vern RU ~ ?

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I will only say one thing (or rather, just make one point…) A hospital (or whatever entity) is just a building.  Let’s stick with the hospital for now…  I have seen virtually everything imaginable (and some un-imaginable things) that can happen in hospitals, having worked in them for over 20 years.  Without the people inside, it is just a building which could just as easily be government offices, or converted to a parking garage for that matter.  It is the knowledge base, character and integrity of the people who WORK inside the building that make the whole thing happen every day.  People have children, sometimes high-risk, are afraid, are helped with technology not known of 40 years ago, and now they can bring their kids home.  People who used to drop dead in the street due to bad heart disease are now working – I have seen hundreds and hundreds and HUNDREDS of things like this. Some of the people who work in ANY occupation or profession, whether it’s I.T., government, law, medicine, construction, sales, music, art, or selling coffee are going to be "less than good" to greater or lesser degrees.  It’s not the coffee factory that should be blamed, or the construction company, it’s the PERSON or PEOPLE who made decisions lacking integrity – and they are everywhere, including whatever trade you yourself ply.  Humans are flawed, and some are Quite Flawed – and they will choose all sorts of fields of endeavor. Your job is to become more educated in skillful dealings with healthcare entities, legalities, rights, responsibilities, assessing people, finding liaison if need be, and then you will be able to sort the wheat from the chaff.  Until then, you will be saddled with a very anxiety provoking, and depressing resignation to the idea that you have no control over some "large entity" that presents, on the face of it, as entirely sociopathic.  Nothing is "always", "never", etc.. Black and white is a wonderful idea, and would make life a lot easier, but that icky little "gray area" so often creeps in, and we have to recognize and deal with it. If you deny the reality that this actually IS your job, you will continue to struggle with the issue – which is a choice I hope you’ll consider with some care, for your own sake, solely. Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A Bottomless Money Drain: The Licensed Medical Trade – Medical Research, Charities, Foundations, Universities And Hospitals CONTEMPT Of Your Suffering And Of Mankind Looks like a good basis.  Too bad you don’t know how to post a cut and paste and you thus make it a pain in the rear to read and thus not read past the first half page.

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And what would you do if many of those people you depended upon to do construction were convinced due to a union and books by "experts" with no experience or testing, that more sand in concrete was better? The problem in the medical field is that empirical evidence and statistics is almost non-existent.  Universities are cesspools of knowledge, old, rotten and full of crap. You are right, all fields, including medicine, are almost alike in that vain. Don’t expect a college graduate who has done no other studying to fix your computer as well as a tech.  Don’t expect an engineering graduate to build you a real house. If engineers and computer engineers had a union like the Medical field or the Law environment, you would NEVER be able to have a news group or a computer. Universities are cesspools of knowledge, old (outdated),  rotten and full of crap.  That is where Doctors get their so called knowledge.  In the technical world, anyone who spends time to get a Doctorate other that in night school is considered  a professional student and useless for inovation.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I will only say one thing (or rather, just make one point…) A hospital (or whatever entity) is just a building.  Let’s stick with the hospital for now…  I have seen virtually everything imaginable (and some un-imaginable things) that can happen in hospitals, having worked in them for over 20 years.  Without the people inside, it is just a building which could just as easily be government offices, or converted to a parking garage for that matter.  It is the knowledge base, character and integrity of the people who WORK inside the building that make the whole thing happen every day.  People have children, sometimes high-risk, are afraid, are helped with technology not known of 40 years ago, and now they can bring their kids home.  People who used to drop dead in the street due to bad heart disease are now working – I have seen hundreds and hundreds and HUNDREDS of things like this. Some of the people who work in ANY occupation or profession, whether it’s I.T., government, law, medicine, construction, sales, music, art, or selling coffee are going to be "less than good" to greater or lesser degrees.  It’s not the coffee factory that should be blamed, or the construction company, it’s the PERSON or PEOPLE who made decisions lacking integrity – and they are everywhere, including whatever trade you yourself ply.  Humans are flawed, and some are Quite Flawed – and they will choose all sorts of fields of endeavor. Your job is to become more educated in skillful dealings with healthcare entities, legalities, rights, responsibilities, assessing people, finding liaison if need be, and then you will be able to sort the wheat from the chaff.  Until then, you will be saddled with a very anxiety provoking, and depressing resignation to the idea that you have no control over some "large entity" that presents, on the face of it, as entirely sociopathic. Nothing is "always", "never", etc.. Black and white is a wonderful idea, and would make life a lot easier, but that icky little "gray area" so often creeps in, and we have to recognize and deal with it. If you deny the reality that this actually IS your job, you will continue to struggle with the issue – which is a choice I hope you’ll consider with some care, for your own sake, solely. Gary A Bottomless Money Drain: The Licensed Medical Trade – Medical Research, Charities, Foundations, Universities And Hospitals CONTEMPT Of Your Suffering And Of Mankind Looks like a good basis.  Too bad you don’t know how to post a cut and paste and you thus make it a pain in the rear to read and thus not read past the first half page.

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are almost alike in that vain.

           BAN MIRRORS!

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HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAH

Response:

‘Don’t expect an engineering graduate to build you a real house.’ I wouldn’t expect that.  However, he or she might well be quite capable of drafting a plan for such house, which is the metaphorical (to some extent) equivalent to medical doctors – they formulate a plan, the plan is actually implemented by a variety of people working in different disciplines. Pharmacy, nursing, physical therapy, respiratory technicians, food services/dieticians, laboratory technicians and analysts, nuclear medicine/radiology to name some….The one physician could never achieve expertise in performing all those things, not to mention the sheer impossibility of actually performing all the tasks.  I’m not even in the mood to defend doctors right now, they haven’t done that well for me lately, personally, but some of these indictments are a little overblown.  Empirical knowledge is utilized all the time in medicine, and in nursing science.

And what would you do if many of those people you depended upon to do

construction were convinced due to a union and books by "experts" with no – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – experience or testing, that more sand in concrete was better? The problem in the medical field is that empirical evidence and statistics is almost non-existent.  Universities are cesspools of knowledge, old, rotten and full of crap. You are right, all fields, including medicine, are almost alike in that vain. Don’t expect a college graduate who has done no other studying to fix your computer as well as a tech.  Don’t expect an engineering graduate to build you a real house. If engineers and computer engineers had a union like the Medical field or the Law environment, you would NEVER be able to have a news group or a computer. Universities are cesspools of knowledge, old (outdated),  rotten and full of crap.  That is where Doctors get their so called knowledge.  In the technical world, anyone who spends time to get a Doctorate other that in night school is considered  a professional student and useless for inovation. I will only say one thing (or rather, just make one point…) A hospital (or whatever entity) is just a building.  Let’s stick with the hospital for now…  I have seen virtually everything imaginable (and some un-imaginable things) that can happen in hospitals, having worked in them for over 20 years.  Without the people inside, it is just a building which could just as easily be government offices, or converted to a parking garage for that matter.  It is the knowledge base, character and integrity of the people who WORK inside the building that make the whole thing happen every day.  People have children, sometimes high-risk, are afraid, are helped with technology not known of 40 years ago, and now they can bring their kids home.  People who used to drop dead in the street due to bad heart disease are now working – I have seen hundreds and hundreds and HUNDREDS of things like this. Some of the people who work in ANY occupation or profession, whether it’s I.T., government, law, medicine, construction, sales, music, art, or selling coffee are going to be "less than good" to greater or lesser degrees.  It’s not the coffee factory that should be blamed, or the construction company, it’s the PERSON or PEOPLE who made decisions lacking integrity – and they are everywhere, including whatever trade you yourself ply.  Humans are flawed, and some are Quite Flawed – and they will choose all sorts of fields of endeavor. Your job is to become more educated in skillful dealings with healthcare entities, legalities, rights, responsibilities, assessing people, finding liaison if need be, and then you will be able to sort the wheat from the chaff.  Until then, you will be saddled with a very anxiety provoking, and depressing resignation to the idea that you have no control over some "large entity" that presents, on the face of it, as entirely sociopathic. Nothing is "always", "never", etc.. Black and white is a wonderful idea, and would make life a lot easier, but that icky little "gray area" so often creeps in, and we have to recognize and deal with it. If you deny the reality that this actually IS your job, you will continue to struggle with the issue – which is a choice I hope you’ll consider with some care, for your own sake, solely. Gary A Bottomless Money Drain: The Licensed Medical Trade – Medical Research, Charities, Foundations, Universities And Hospitals CONTEMPT Of Your Suffering And Of Mankind Looks like a good basis.  Too bad you don’t know how to post a cut and paste and you thus make it a pain in the rear to read and thus not read past the first half page.

Response:

You two need to go and rent a **** Room for the night.

Gee your mommy taught you a new word while you were playing in bed. PLONK

Response:

"Go to a doctor not covered by your insurance, get an appointment (it’s a one time cost), ask that doctor if he / she had you problems, honestly, who would they go to." Yes, that is indeed an excellent strategy, one which I have employed a number of times.  I generally just ask in the hallway or lunchroom though, it’s much less complicated, time-consumptive and there’s no form to fill out. G

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ‘Don’t expect an engineering graduate to build you a real house.’ I wouldn’t expect that.  However, he or she might well be quite capable of drafting a plan for such house, No more than a non-graduate which is the metaphorical (to some extent) equivalent to medical doctors – they formulate a plan, the plan is actually implemented by a variety of people working in different disciplines. Yeh sure. Pharmacy, nursing, physical therapy, respiratory technicians, food services/dieticians, laboratory technicians and analysts, nuclear medicine/radiology to name some….The one physician could never achieve expertise in performing all those things, not to mention the sheer impossibility of actually performing all the tasks.  I’m not even in the mood to defend doctors right now, they haven’t done that well for me lately, personally, but some of these indictments are a little overblown. Empirical knowledge is utilized all the time in medicine, and in nursing science. Very, very true. It does mean that one searches for that doctor or team that does exaclty that. It does mean that if they aren’t performing, you go elsewhere, another doctor. If you have insurance, here is a little trick. Go to a doctor not covered by your insurance, get an appointment (it’s a one time cost), ask that doctor if he / she had you problems, honestly, who would they go to. And what would you do if many of those people you depended upon to do construction were convinced due to a union and books by "experts" with no experience or testing, that more sand in concrete was better? The problem in the medical field is that empirical evidence and statistics is almost non-existent.  Universities are cesspools of knowledge, old, rotten and full of crap. You are right, all fields, including medicine, are almost alike in that vain. Don’t expect a college graduate who has done no other studying to fix your computer as well as a tech.  Don’t expect an engineering graduate to build you a real house. If engineers and computer engineers had a union like the Medical field or the Law environment, you would NEVER be able to have a news group or a computer. Universities are cesspools of knowledge, old (outdated),  rotten and full of crap.  That is where Doctors get their so called knowledge.  In the technical world, anyone who spends time to get a Doctorate other that in night school is considered  a professional student and useless for inovation. I will only say one thing (or rather, just make one point…) A hospital (or whatever entity) is just a building.  Let’s stick with the hospital for now…  I have seen virtually everything imaginable (and some un-imaginable things) that can happen in hospitals, having worked in them for over 20 years.  Without the people inside, it is just a building which could just as easily be government offices, or converted to a parking garage for that matter.  It is the knowledge base, character and integrity of the people who WORK inside the building that make the whole thing happen every day.  People have children, sometimes high-risk, are afraid, are helped with technology not known of 40 years ago, and now they can bring their kids home. People who used to drop dead in the street due to bad heart disease are now working – I have seen hundreds and hundreds and HUNDREDS of things like this. Some of the people who work in ANY occupation or profession, whether it’s I.T., government, law, medicine, construction, sales, music, art, or selling coffee are going to be "less than good" to greater or lesser degrees.  It’s not the coffee factory that should be blamed, or the construction company, it’s the PERSON or PEOPLE who made decisions lacking integrity – and they are everywhere, including whatever trade you yourself ply.  Humans are flawed, and some are Quite Flawed – and they will choose all sorts of fields of endeavor. Your job is to become more educated in skillful dealings with healthcare entities, legalities, rights, responsibilities, assessing people, finding liaison if need be, and then you will be able to sort the wheat from the chaff.  Until then, you will be saddled with a very anxiety provoking, and depressing resignation to the idea that you have no control over some "large entity" that presents, on the face of it, as entirely sociopathic. Nothing is "always", "never", etc.. Black and white is a wonderful idea, and would make life a lot easier, but that icky little "gray area" so often creeps in, and we have to recognize and deal with it. If you deny the reality that this actually IS your job, you will continue to struggle with the issue – which is a choice I hope you’ll consider with some care, for your own sake, solely. Gary A Bottomless Money Drain: The Licensed Medical Trade – Medical Research, Charities, Foundations, Universities And Hospitals CONTEMPT Of Your Suffering And Of Mankind Looks like a good basis.  Too bad you don’t know how to post a cut and paste and you thus make it a pain in the rear to read and thus not read past the first half page.

Response:

are almost alike in that vain.           BAN MIRRORS!

Ahhh vanity, the bane of mankind.

Response:

‘Don’t expect an engineering graduate to build you a real house.’ I wouldn’t expect that.  However, he or she might well be quite capable of drafting a plan for such house,

No more than a non-graduate which is the metaphorical (to some extent) equivalent to medical doctors – they formulate a plan, the plan is actually implemented by a variety of people working in different disciplines.

Yeh sure. Pharmacy, nursing, physical therapy, respiratory technicians, food services/dieticians, laboratory technicians and analysts, nuclear medicine/radiology to name some….The one physician could never achieve expertise in performing all those things, not to mention the sheer impossibility of actually performing all the tasks.  I’m not even in the mood to defend doctors right now, they haven’t done that well for me lately, personally, but some of these indictments are a little overblown. Empirical knowledge is utilized all the time in medicine, and in nursing science.

Very, very true. It does mean that one searches for that doctor or team that does exaclty that. It does mean that if they aren’t performing, you go elsewhere, another doctor. If you have insurance, here is a little trick. Go to a doctor not covered by your insurance, get an appointment (it’s a one time cost), ask that doctor if he / she had you problems, honestly, who would they go to. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And what would you do if many of those people you depended upon to do construction were convinced due to a union and books by "experts" with no experience or testing, that more sand in concrete was better? The problem in the medical field is that empirical evidence and statistics is almost non-existent.  Universities are cesspools of knowledge, old, rotten and full of crap. You are right, all fields, including medicine, are almost alike in that vain. Don’t expect a college graduate who has done no other studying to fix your computer as well as a tech.  Don’t expect an engineering graduate to build you a real house. If engineers and computer engineers had a union like the Medical field or the Law environment, you would NEVER be able to have a news group or a computer. Universities are cesspools of knowledge, old (outdated),  rotten and full of crap.  That is where Doctors get their so called knowledge.  In the technical world, anyone who spends time to get a Doctorate other that in night school is considered  a professional student and useless for inovation. I will only say one thing (or rather, just make one point…) A hospital (or whatever entity) is just a building.  Let’s stick with the hospital for now…  I have seen virtually everything imaginable (and some un-imaginable things) that can happen in hospitals, having worked in them for over 20 years.  Without the people inside, it is just a building which could just as easily be government offices, or converted to a parking garage for that matter.  It is the knowledge base, character and integrity of the people who WORK inside the building that make the whole thing happen every day.  People have children, sometimes high-risk, are afraid, are helped with technology not known of 40 years ago, and now they can bring their kids home.  People who used to drop dead in the street due to bad heart disease are now working – I have seen hundreds and hundreds and HUNDREDS of things like this. Some of the people who work in ANY occupation or profession, whether it’s I.T., government, law, medicine, construction, sales, music, art, or selling coffee are going to be "less than good" to greater or lesser degrees.  It’s not the coffee factory that should be blamed, or the construction company, it’s the PERSON or PEOPLE who made decisions lacking integrity – and they are everywhere, including whatever trade you yourself ply.  Humans are flawed, and some are Quite Flawed – and they will choose all sorts of fields of endeavor. Your job is to become more educated in skillful dealings with healthcare entities, legalities, rights, responsibilities, assessing people, finding liaison if need be, and then you will be able to sort the wheat from the chaff.  Until then, you will be saddled with a very anxiety provoking, and depressing resignation to the idea that you have no control over some "large entity" that presents, on the face of it, as entirely sociopathic. Nothing is "always", "never", etc.. Black and white is a wonderful idea, and would make life a lot easier, but that icky little "gray area" so often creeps in, and we have to recognize and deal with it. If you deny the reality that this actually IS your job, you will continue to struggle with the issue – which is a choice I hope you’ll consider with some care, for your own sake, solely. Gary A Bottomless Money Drain: The Licensed Medical Trade – Medical Research, Charities, Foundations, Universities And Hospitals CONTEMPT Of Your Suffering And Of Mankind Looks like a good basis.  Too bad you don’t know how to post a cut and paste and you thus make it a pain in the rear to read and thus not read past the first half page.

Response:

You two need to go and rent a Fuck Room for the night.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ‘Don’t expect an engineering graduate to build you a real house.’ I wouldn’t expect that.  However, he or she might well be quite capable of drafting a plan for such house, which is the metaphorical (to some extent) equivalent to medical doctors – they formulate a plan, the plan is actually implemented by a variety of people working in different disciplines. Pharmacy, nursing, physical therapy, respiratory technicians, food services/dieticians, laboratory technicians and analysts, nuclear medicine/radiology to name some….The one physician could never achieve expertise in performing all those things, not to mention the sheer impossibility of actually performing all the tasks.  I’m not even in the mood to defend doctors right now, they haven’t done that well for me lately, personally, but some of these indictments are a little overblown. Empirical knowledge is utilized all the time in medicine, and in nursing science. And what would you do if many of those people you depended upon to do construction were convinced due to a union and books by "experts" with no experience or testing, that more sand in concrete was better? The problem in the medical field is that empirical evidence and statistics is almost non-existent.  Universities are cesspools of knowledge, old, rotten and full of crap. You are right, all fields, including medicine, are almost alike in that vain. Don’t expect a college graduate who has done no other studying to fix your computer as well as a tech.  Don’t expect an engineering graduate to build you a real house. If engineers and computer engineers had a union like the Medical field or the Law environment, you would NEVER be able to have a news group or a computer. Universities are cesspools of knowledge, old (outdated),  rotten and full of crap.  That is where Doctors get their so called knowledge.  In the technical world, anyone who spends time to get a Doctorate other that in night school is considered  a professional student and useless for inovation. I will only say one thing (or rather, just make one point…) A hospital (or whatever entity) is just a building.  Let’s stick with the hospital for now…  I have seen virtually everything imaginable (and some un-imaginable things) that can happen in hospitals, having worked in them for over 20 years.  Without the people inside, it is just a building which could just as easily be government offices, or converted to a parking garage for that matter.  It is the knowledge base, character and integrity of the people who WORK inside the building that make the whole thing happen every day.  People have children, sometimes high-risk, are afraid, are helped with technology not known of 40 years ago, and now they can bring their kids home.  People who used to drop dead in the street due to bad heart disease are now working – I have seen hundreds and hundreds and HUNDREDS of things like this. Some of the people who work in ANY occupation or profession, whether it’s I.T., government, law, medicine, construction, sales, music, art, or selling coffee are going to be "less than good" to greater or lesser degrees.  It’s not the coffee factory that should be blamed, or the construction company, it’s the PERSON or PEOPLE who made decisions lacking integrity – and they are everywhere, including whatever trade you yourself ply.  Humans are flawed, and some are Quite Flawed – and they will choose all sorts of fields of endeavor. Your job is to become more educated in skillful dealings with healthcare entities, legalities, rights, responsibilities, assessing people, finding liaison if need be, and then you will be able to sort the wheat from the chaff.  Until then, you will be saddled with a very anxiety provoking, and depressing resignation to the idea that you have no control over some "large entity" that presents, on the face of it, as entirely sociopathic. Nothing is "always", "never", etc.. Black and white is a wonderful idea, and would make life a lot easier, but that icky little "gray area" so often creeps in, and we have to recognize and deal with it. If you deny the reality that this actually IS your job, you will continue to struggle with the issue – which is a choice I hope you’ll consider with some care, for your own sake, solely. Gary A Bottomless Money Drain: The Licensed Medical Trade – Medical Research, Charities, Foundations, Universities And Hospitals CONTEMPT Of Your Suffering And Of Mankind Looks like a good basis.  Too bad you don’t know how to post a cut and paste and you thus make it a pain in the rear to read and thus not read past the first half page.

Response:

A Bottomless Money Drain: The Licensed Medical Trade – Medical  Research, Charities, Foundations, Universities And Hospitals CONTEMPT  Of Your Suffering And Of Mankind                                                      13 February 2006 ‘       A Bottomless Money Drain:             Their REFUSAL To Examine The Most Basic, Most Vital Data.             Their DENIAL Of ALL Basic And Vital Principles Of Science.             Their CONTEMPT Of Your Suffering And Of Mankind. ‘ The ‘Dead End Street’ of Medical "Science"                          Medical "science" is nearing the                          walled-off part of a dead end                          street, now,                                      with their (organic)                                      chemistry that its                                      founder, the Frenchman                                      Lavoisier, demanded to                                      be the ONLY component                                      of life, a singularity                                      [deliberate concentration                                      on one point]                                      that leads into a ‘Cul                                      de Sac,’ as the French                                      say when people follow                                      a course that in the                                      end blocks the very                                      purpose for which it                                      was designed,                          BECAUSE the medical trade vehemently                          denies even the most basic and most                          fundamental structure of the body                          itself. (see References) ‘ ‘                                The same ‘dead end’ applies                                in physics, by the way,                                      which does not, like                                      medical "scientists,"                                      use test tubes and                                      Petri dishes etc., but                                      rather uses cyclotrons                                      and telescopes, and                                      apparently replaced                                      those instruments with                                      an "all-knowing," now                                      deceased, Nobel Prize                                      winner, and let him do                                      all their thinking FOR                                      them,                                            to limit even more                                            their choice of what                                            they are allowed to                                            observe, by                                using INSTRUMENTS FOR DENYING                                [like Michelson and Morley,                                choosing instruments that fail                                to measure or register that what                                exists but what they want to DENY                                exists - their method of DENYING]                                the most vital observations and the                                most fundamental, basic phenomena                                of physics                                      that also they prefer                                      to call ‘anomalies,’ or                                      "strange things," or "not                                      physics,"                                      because the Nobel Prize                                      Winner does not want you to                                      even see it                                      …and thus, in physics, it is                               "not worthy of being examined or                                discussed, by ‘peers’,"                                      by paid colleagues who suffer                                      equally from that type of                                      "academic education," of                                      having to conform to the                                      common and lowest denominator                                      (the lowest level) of [their]                                      ability to think,                                      in order to socially be                                      accepted by those who molded                                      them into being ‘peers,’                                      who ‘pressed’ (pressured,                                      ’compressed’) them into                                      being equals                                      - who "understand" and                                        "observe" the same things. ‘ ‘                          And all that, while they have not even                          the faintest idea of the working of                          thinking itself…                          But that, they are denying too:                                They are not merely without                                knowledge of how thinking                                works, but they are                                DENYING how it DOES work                                     (thinking is done entirely                                      and only with Life Energy)                                AND ALSO DENYING, THAT they do                                not know how thinking works. ‘                                      Much like someone saying                                      ’he breathes, "thus he                                      knows how lungs work",’                                      or ‘he is walking, so                                      "he knows the anatomy                                      of legs",’                                      and ‘he thinks,                                      therefore he is                                      …knowing how that                                      thinking is done’                                           – quod non, cogito. ‘                                Hilarious, for sure – the                                most intelligent people do                                not even know how thinking                                works.  *(7)                          Thinking has to do with Life Energy                          and therefore it follows the                          Trinity of Science.  *(7) ‘ Koos Nolst Trenite "Cause Trinity" human rights philosopher and poet                                        ’Solomon’s wisdom was greater                                                   than the wisdom of                                              all the men of the East,                                                          and greater                                         than all the wisdom of Egypt.’                                                         1 Kings 4:30      ’Current State of Mental Health Care And Understanding       – Consequences For Decision Makers, Caretakers And Caregivers’       {HRI 20021209-V3.1} – (9 Dec 2002 – Version 3.1 on 27 Sept 2005) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/98b407408d4daf50?fwc=1        (full text:) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/98b407408d4daf50?dmode=sou… ‘ Earlier Quotes from {HRI 20021209-V3.1} :      ’Are ALL Licensed Medical Doctors Criminal? No!’        (7 February 2006) (Quote from HRI 20021209-V3.1) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/afe57937b73121de?fwc=1      ’Medical Doctors Can Seriously Damage Your Health’        (8 February 2006) (Quote from HRI 20021209-V3.1) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/775ee6d242f968ce?fwc=1      ’Stay Away From Medical Doctors …UNLESS You Know About Them’        (9 February 2006) (Quote from HRI 20021209-V3.1) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/12bfd20d19196e11?fwc=1      ’The Licensed Medical Doctors ARE The Dangerous Quacks,       and Charlatans All’        (10 February 2006) (Quote from HRI 20021209-V3.1) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/04006a8681abc39d?fwc=1 ‘ Footnote: (7)  ’The Trinity Of Science – Truth, Love and Beauty’         {HRI 20030307-pi-1-V2.1} (7 Mar 2003 – Ver. 2.1 on 17 Oct 2003) http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.europe/msg/4129fa4f1a67840… ‘ References:      ’Prices of Medical Drugs Compared To Manufacturing Costs And        To Country Of Sale – The "Bill Gates Factor" ‘         (5 February 2005 – Version 2.3.1 on 8 Feb 2005) http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.canada/msg/938b77517250042…      ’Explaining The Scale Of Sanity’ {HRI 20040619-V3.4}         (19 June 2004) (Version 3.4 on 2 Sept 2004) http://groups.google.com/group/alt.education/msg/7ee775b1a7d5b10f?fwc=1      ’What IS Depression or Lethargy’ {HRI 20041107-V2.2}         (7 November 2004 – Version 2.2 on 14 Dec 2004) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/e3f79cb2f78d2145?fwc=1      ’The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth – Life Energy Particles        - Perception At A Distance’ {HRI 20010829-pi9-V2.0}         (29 August 2001 – part issue 9 Version 2.0 on 21 Aug 2005) http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/3c571f55d616… ‘      ’The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth’ {HRI 20010829} (9 parts issued) http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/ca03e63aa716… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/660053d9538d… http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/2529732655e6… … read more »

Response:

How John Kerry Exposed the Contra-Cocaine Scandal     By Robert Parry     Salon.com     Monday 25 October 2004   Derided by the mainstream press and taking on Reagan at the height of his popularity, the freshman senator battled to reveal one of America’s ugliest foreign policy secrets.     In December 1985, when Brian Barger and I wrote a groundbreaking story for the Associated Press about Nicaraguan Contra rebels smuggling cocaine into the United States, one U.S. senator put his political career on the line to follow up on our disturbing findings. His name was John Kerry.     Yet, over the past year, even as Kerry’s heroism as a young Navy officer in Vietnam has become a point of controversy, this act of political courage by a freshman senator has gone virtually unmentioned, even though – or perhaps because – it marked Kerry’s first challenge to the Bush family.     In early 1986, the 42-year-old Massachusetts Democrat stood almost alone in the U.S. Senate demanding answers about the emerging evidence that CIA-backed Contras were filling their coffers by collaborating with drug traffickers then flooding U.S. borders with cocaine from South America.     Kerry assigned members of his personal Senate staff to pursue the allegations. He also persuaded the Republican majority on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee to request information from the Reagan-Bush administration about the alleged Contra drug traffickers.     In taking on the inquiry, Kerry challenged President Ronald Reagan at the height of his power, at a time he was calling the Contras the "moral equals of the Founding Fathers." Kerry’s questions represented a particular embarrassment to Vice President George H.W. Bush, whose responsibilities included overseeing U.S. drug-interdiction policies.     Kerry took on the investigation though he didn’t have much support within his own party. By 1986, congressional Democrats had little stomach left for challenging the Reagan-Bush Contra war. Not only had Reagan won a historic landslide in 1984, amassing a record 54 million votes, but his conservative allies were targeting individual Democrats viewed as critical of the Contras fighting to oust Nicaragua’s leftist Sandinista government. Most Washington journalists were backing off, too, for fear of getting labeled "Sandinista apologists" or worse.     Kerry’s probe infuriated Reagan’s White House, which was pushing Congress to restore military funding for the Contras. Some in the administration also saw Kerry’s investigation as a threat to the secrecy surrounding the Contra supply operation, which was being run illegally by White House aide Oliver North and members of Bush’s vice presidential staff.     Through most of 1986, Kerry’s staff inquiry advanced against withering political fire. His investigators interviewed witnesses in Washington, contacted Contra sources in Miami and Costa Rica, and tried to make sense of sometimes convoluted stories of intrigue from the shadowy worlds of covert warfare and the drug trade.     Kerry’s chief Senate staff investigators were Ron Rosenblith, Jonathan Winer and Dick McCall. Rosenblith, a Massachusetts political strategist from Kerry’s victorious 1984 campaign, braved both political and personal risks as he traveled to Central America for face-to-face meetings with witnesses. Winer, a lawyer also from Massachusetts, charted the inquiry’s legal framework and mastered its complex details. McCall, an experienced congressional staffer, brought Capitol Hill savvy to the investigation.     Behind it all was Kerry, who combined a prosecutor’s sense for sniffing out criminality and a politician’s instinct for pushing the limits. The Kerry whom I met during this period was a complex man who balanced a rebellious idealism with a determination not to burn his bridges to the political establishment.     The Reagan administration did everything it could to thwart Kerry’s investigation, including attempting to discredit witnesses, stonewalling the Senate when it requested evidence and assigning the CIA to monitor Kerry’s probe. But it couldn’t stop Kerry and his investigators from discovering the explosive truth: that the Contra war was permeated with drug traffickers who gave the Contras money, weapons and equipment in exchange for help in smuggling cocaine into the United States. Even more damningly, Kerry found that U.S. government agencies knew about the Contra-drug connection, but turned a blind eye to the evidence in order to avoid undermining a top Reagan-Bush foreign policy initiative.     The Reagan administration’s tolerance and protection of this dark underbelly of the Contra war represented one of the most sordid scandals in the history of U.S. foreign policy. Yet when Kerry’s bombshell findings were released in 1989, they were greeted by the mainstream press with disdain and disinterest. The New York Times, which had long denigrated the Contra-drug allegations, buried the story of Kerry’s report on its inside pages, as did the Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times. For his tireless efforts, Kerry earned a reputation as a reckless investigator. Newsweek’s Conventional Wisdom Watch dubbed Kerry a "randy conspiracy buff."     But almost a decade later, in 1998, Kerry’s trailblazing investigation was vindicated by the CIA’s own inspector general, who found that scores of Contra operatives were implicated in the cocaine trade and that U.S. agencies had looked the other way rather than reveal information that could have embarrassed the Reagan-Bush administration.     Even after the CIA’s admissions, the national press corps never fully corrected its earlier dismissive treatment. That would have meant the New York Times and other leading publications admitting they had bungled their coverage of one of the worst scandals of the Reagan-Bush era.     The warm and fuzzy glow that surrounded Ronald Reagan after he left office also discouraged clarification of the historical record. Taking a clear-eyed look at crimes inside Reagan’s Central American policies would have required a tough reassessment of the 40th president, which to this day the media has been unwilling to do. So this formative period of Kerry’s political evolution has remained nearly unknown to the American electorate.     Two decades later, it’s hard to recall the intensity of the administration’s support for the Contras. They were hailed as courageous front-line fighters, like the Mujahedin in Afghanistan, defending the free world from the Soviet empire. Reagan famously warned that Nicaragua was only "two days’ driving time from Harlingen, Texas."     Yet, for years, Contra units had gone on bloody rampages through Nicaraguan border towns, raping women, torturing captives and executing civilian officials of the Sandinista government. In private, Reagan referred to the Contras as "vandals," according to Duane Clarridge, the CIA officer in charge of the operation, in his memoir, "A Spy for All Seasons." But in public, the Reagan administration attacked anyone who pointed out the Contras’ corruption and brutality.     The Contras also proved militarily inept, causing the CIA to intervene directly and engage in warlike acts, such as mining Nicaragua’s harbors. In 1984, these controversies caused the Congress to forbid U.S. military assistance to the Contras – the Boland Amendment – forcing the rebels to search for new funding sources.     Drug money became the easiest way to fill the depleted Contra coffers. The documentary evidence is now irrefutable that a number of Contra units both in Costa Rica and Honduras opened or deepened ties to Colombian cartels and other regional drug traffickers. The White House also scrambled to find other ways to keep the Contras afloat, turning to third countries, such as Saudi Arabia, and eventually to profits from clandestine arms sales to Iran.     The secrets began to seep out in the mid-1980s. In June 1985, as a reporter for the Associated Press, I wrote the first story mentioning Oliver North’s secret Contra supply operation. By that fall, my AP colleague Brian Barger and I stumbled onto evidence that some of the Contras were supplementing their income by helping traffickers transship cocaine through Central America. As we dug deeper, it became clear that the drug connection implicated nearly all the major Contra organizations.     The AP published our story about the Contra-cocaine evidence on Dec. 20, 1985, describing Contra units "engaged in cocaine smuggling, using some of the profits to finance their war against Nicaragua’s leftist government." The story provoked little coverage elsewhere in the U.S. national press corps. But it pricked the interest of a newly elected U.S. senator, John Kerry. A former prosecutor, Kerry also heard about Contra law violations from a Miami-based federal public defender named John Mattes, who had been assigned a case that touched on Contra gunrunning. Mattes’ sister had worked for Kerry in Massachusetts.     By spring 1986, Kerry had begun a limited investigation deploying some of his personal staff in Washington. As a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Kerry managed to gain some cooperation from the panel’s Republican leadership, partly because the "war on drugs" was then a major political issue. Besides looking into Contra drug trafficking, Kerry launched the first investigation into the allegations of weapons smuggling and misappropriation of U.S. government funds that were later exposed as part of North’s illegal operation to supply the Contras.     Kerry’s staff soon took an interest in a federal probe in Miami headed by assistant U.S. Attorney Jeffrey Feldman. Talking to some of the same Contra supporters whom we had interviewed for the AP’s Contra-cocaine story, Feldman had pieced together the outlines of North’s secret network.

… read more »

Response:

Hey thanks but I already know about the Iran-contra scandal.  This was a Reagan scandal, another one of your Republican friends. But what does this have to do with anything?  The cocaine stuff I’m talking about in Arkansas is not related to Iran-Contra (as far as I know). Mr Soul

Response:

That WAS THE COCAINE SCANDAL BILL CLINTON WAS GOVERNOR OF ARKANSAS. Look at the dates. Bill knew what was going on. They had a protection by the Arkansas law enforcement. Jeeezzeee are you still smoking pot? If you will just type in, senate investigate c.i.a. cocaine reagan administration, in to your browser, you will find out about the c.i.a. information I posted, that you disputed. Do you live near a nuclear reactor?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey thanks but I already know about the Iran-contra scandal.  This was a Reagan scandal, another one of your Republican friends. But what does this have to do with anything?  The cocaine stuff I’m talking about in Arkansas is not related to Iran-Contra (as far as I know). Mr Soul

Response:

I can play along with this one.  Imagine yourself the Governor of Arkansas & you discover the CIA is bringing cocaine into the US using an airstrip in your own state.  What you do think you would do?  Call the President or the FBI & report it. I don’t have a clue if the CIA was smuggling cocaine into the US to pay for the contra’s but I seriosly doubt if they were.  Clinton was not involved in this & the other reports about him & secret runaways in Arkansas are BS. Mr Soul

Response:

I can play along with this one.  Imagine yourself the Governor of Arkansas & you discover the CIA is bringing cocaine into the US using an airstrip in your own state.  What you do think you would do?  Call the President or the FBI & report it.

Send the State Police, and if needed, the National Guard since the Governor is their commander whish is why Governors even used the NG to put down violent demonstrations before.

Response:

The "FACTS" make you wrong. Your life is a lie. There is nothing to play along with. This info is all documented. I guess you weren’t around when the National Black leaders demanded the C.I.A. drug operation supplying drugs to gangs in L.A. be stopped??? This was all over the news. The drugs came from Mena, Arkansas. If you actually believe reagan, bush 1, clinton & the c.i.a. were not involved in drug, gun running & money laundering allot of which was done in Arkansas, then you really know nothing & your living in a dream world. You are right about 1 thing though, on most issues you don’t have a clue. Even when you are presented with evidence, you refuse to accept it. Oh well, another waste of my time.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I can play along with this one.  Imagine yourself the Governor of Arkansas & you discover the CIA is bringing cocaine into the US using an airstrip in your own state.  What you do think you would do?  Call the President or the FBI & report it. I don’t have a clue if the CIA was smuggling cocaine into the US to pay for the contra’s but I seriosly doubt if they were.  Clinton was not involved in this & the other reports about him & secret runaways in Arkansas are BS. Mr Soul

Response:

You are such a joke, this is all the response needed.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That WAS THE COCAINE SCANDAL BILL CLINTON WAS GOVERNOR OF ARKANSAS. Look at the dates. Bill knew what was going on. They had a protection by the Arkansas law enforcement. Jeeezzeee are you still smoking pot? Do you still wear your tinfoil beanie with the little propeller on the top?

Response:

You are as worthless as soul.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t have a clue if the CIA was smuggling cocaine into the US to pay for the contra’s but I seriosly doubt if they were. I don’t.

Response:

John – surely you don’t believe any of this crap?  There’s no conclusive proof the CIA or Clinton was smuggling cocaine into the US. Mr Soul

Response:

Proof below, just the tip of the iceburg, I’ll post more if that is what it takes. That’s from the Congreesional Record. Can’t spin that can you. I have the Arkansas college students<<all liberal, that found the clinton money operation. Funny, when you get to be president, then have your attorney general fire all the federal prosecutors and then seal all records, how you can get away with most anything.

John – surely you don’t believe any of this crap?  There’s no conclusive proof the CIA or Clinton was smuggling cocaine into the US. Mr Soul

In this article the c.i.a. had to admit to drug activity. There are volumes on this. Shake your world and read this. CIA ADMITS TIES TO CONTRA DRUG DEALERS (House of Representatives – July 17, 1998) [Page: H5847]The SPEAKER pro tempore. Under a previous order of the House, the gentlewoman from California (Ms. Waters) is recognized for 5 minutes. Ms. WATERS. Today I renew my call on CIA Director George Tenant to immediately release the CIA Inspector General’s classified report on the allegations of CIA involvement with Contra drug trafficking. I also call, once again, on the gentleman from Florida (Mr. Porter Goss), chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, to hold prompt public hearings on the findings of these reports. Today’s New York Times, front page, put it bluntly. `CIA says it used Nicaraguan rebels accused of drug tie.’ The times reported that, and I quote again, `The Central Intelligence Agency continued to work with about two dozen Nicaraguan rebels and their supporters during the 1980s despite allegations that they were trafficking in drugs.’ The Times finally reported the explosive truth that the Senate investigators and investigative journalists alike have been telling the American people for nearly 15 years. This front page confirmation of CIA involvement with Contra drug traffickers evidently came from a leak of the still classified CIA review of the allegations stemming from Gary Webb’s 1996 Dark Alliance series. Webb’s series and his recent book details the CIA’s involvement with Contra drug trafficking, including ties to south central Los Angeles’ largest crack cocaine network. Until today, the CIA has vehemently denied the charges. But, apparently, even the CIA is having trouble hiding the truth from the American people. The leaked CIA report remains classified, sitting at the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, because the CIA refuses to declassify a report full of what are being described as devastating revelations of CIA involvement with known Contra drug traffickers. I have repeatedly called for the public release of these CIA reports, and I applaud Senator Kerry in calling for the immediate public release of the CIA Inspector General’s reports. Senator Kerry has worked for 15 years to bring truth, having chaired the Senate investigation that first uncovered the sordid details of Contra drug trafficking in the 1980s. There is no conceivable reason to keep this report classified. It is tantamount to protecting drug dealers. This administration should call on the CIA to immediately release the report of the Contra drug network. The Contras were a creation of the Reagan-Bush administration and run by Reagan’s CIA and Oliver North. This administration can and should reveal the truth and put an end to this terrible affair. I cannot understand why a CIA report which details the illegal efforts of Reagan-Bush administration officials to protect the involvement of top-level Contras in drug trafficking should continue to be protected. Although today’s New York Times story is somewhat confusing to follow, the story includes some explosive details. Perhaps the most amazing revelation from these leaks is the admission that the CIA knew of drug trafficking allegations against the infamous Legion of September 15 Contra organization. This group included the key Contra military commanders, including the Contra’s top military commander Enrique Bermudez, and was the core of the most famous of the Contra armies, the FDN. They were comprised of a group of violent ex-bodyguards of Nicaraguan dictator Somoza. And they had proven themselves among the worst human rights violators in the entire Contra-era war. The Times somewhat inaccurately reported this organization was disbanded, they said, in 1982. Of course, the Legion of September 15 had, by then, been merged into the FDN. That is the Contra army. So we now know that the CIA knowingly worked with Contra rebels involved in drug dealing, including the core of the FDN. We also know that the CIA and Attorney General had a secret Memorandum of Understanding that allowed drug trafficking by CIA assets to go unreported to law enforcement. This, of course, was confirmed in documents I submitted for the Record in May. And we know that CIA officials at the highest levels knew of the Contra drug trafficking activities. What we do not know yet are the many damaging details of the 500-plus-page CIA report. The American people must be able to see this report for themselves. We forced these investigations. A lot of people said, oh, there was nothing to it. The first half of the CIA reports were unleashed, and that is when we determined the Memorandum of Understanding existed that they did not have to report drug trafficking. [Page: H5848]

Response:

That WAS THE COCAINE SCANDAL BILL CLINTON WAS GOVERNOR OF ARKANSAS

And there was no connection between the Reagan cocaine scandal and Clinton.

Response:

John – surely you don’t believe any of this crap?  There’s no conclusive proof the CIA or Clinton was smuggling cocaine into the US.

I have read accounts of Arkansas State Police verifying Clinton & his brother used cocaine, there rest, I have not read enough about to take any stand.

Response:

I suppose it’s possible that the CIA was involved, which I doubt, but Clinton wasn’t involved.  This was a Reagan/Oliver North deal & Clinton was not involved.  END OF STORY. Mr Soul

Response:

A lot of baby boomers used drugs, including George Bush, so this is no surprise.  We know Clinton’s brother had problems.  I haven’t read Clinton’s memoir – perhaps he talks about drugs in it. However, there’s no real information verifying any of this, including the Arkansas State Police accounts. Mr Soul

Response:

Evidence already posted. Thank you

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That WAS THE COCAINE SCANDAL BILL CLINTON WAS GOVERNOR OF ARKANSAS And there was no connection between the Reagan cocaine scandal and Clinton.

Response:

It’s possible? I gave you a page from the House Committee. It clearly said they were. I gave you a few other pages that show how clinton was involved. You just refuse to believe anything, except clinton is god. I did make a mistake on one of them, it was 92 federal prosecutors that were fired. Sorry for the bad info. Thank you

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I suppose it’s possible that the CIA was involved, which I doubt, but Clinton wasn’t involved.  This was a Reagan/Oliver North deal & Clinton was not involved.  END OF STORY. Mr Soul

Response:

His own brother verified this. Thank you

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -A lot of baby boomers used drugs, including George Bush, so this is no surprise.  We know Clinton’s brother had problems.  I haven’t read Clinton’s memoir – perhaps he talks about drugs in it. However, there’s no real information verifying any of this, including the Arkansas State Police accounts. Mr Soul

Response:

Just because something gets said on the House floor don’t mean it’s true.  I don’t believe any of this crap because it’s all from the right-wing (and it’s crap). Mr Soul

Response:

THE C.I.A. themselves said it. It was in the committee hearing of Maxine Waters.<<< liberal democrat But you believe what you want. This all way over your head anyway. You obviously can’t read. You have been given proof of your questions. You still come back with nothing. Now a "legal" document from the House Intelligence Committee is right wing crap. Stay fat, dumb, and happy. You have no credibility anyway. You can’t even stay on topic in an amp post. It had to be pointed out to you, the poster was not even talking about the amp you were giving advise on. Live long. Thank you

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just because something gets said on the House floor don’t mean it’s true.  I don’t believe any of this crap because it’s all from the right-wing (and it’s crap). Mr Soul

Response:

Extremely High Performances of Bach – Introduction to Bach  (Johann Sebastian Bach)                                                     31 December 2005                                          {HRI 20051021-V3.2-Addition} Extremely High Quality Performances of the music created by  Johann Sebastian Bach (music usually referred to simply as ‘Bach’):

[snip]       3. Mass in B minor ‘Hohe Messe’          performed by Karajan, conductor.

That must have been some performance – Karajan playing all those intrument simultaneously, whilst conducting himself.       4. Saint Matthew Passion ‘Matthaeus Passion’          performed by Klemperer, conductor.

Another talented person who can play a whole orchestra of instruments all by themself!

Response:

Extremely High Performances of Bach – Introduction to Bach  (Johann Sebastian Bach)                                                     31 December 2005                                          {HRI 20051021-V3.2-Addition} Extremely High Quality Performances of the music created by  Johann Sebastian Bach (music usually referred to simply as ‘Bach’):       1. Oboe Concertos BWV 1053R, 1056R, 1059R, 1060R          performed by Goritzki, oboe, and Rilling, conductor.       2. Violin Solo – the ‘Chaconne’ and some other parts from the          Sonatas and Partitas for violin solo,          performed by James Ehnes, violin.       3. Mass in B minor ‘Hohe Messe’          performed by Karajan, conductor.       4. Saint Matthew Passion ‘Matthaeus Passion’          performed by Klemperer, conductor.       The performers make a considerable difference, which is why       I mention them, here             – however, there are very many, very high quality               performances of Bach, and so I had to call these               Extremely High Quality Performances, and               to serve as a possible introduction to Bach, I chose               only four recordings;             – if by way of introduction to Bach, then maybe they are               listened to in the order suggested above. ‘ ‘      ’Bach Pulling People Out Of Hell’ {HRI 20051021-V3.2}        (21 October 2005 – Version 3.2 on 13 Dec 2005) http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/aa3efef314af… ‘ Now I am not at all going to discuss what is ‘Extremely High Quality  Performance’ of Johann Sebastian Bach.       It is rather so, that you either can hear it, and want to hear       it – or you can not hear it, or do not want to hear it.             Discussing it – with some fruits resulting – would             pre-suppose an ability and knowledge                   to define Music                        (not to mention the ability and knowledge                         to define Beauty)             – an (amount of) ability and knowledge that is not               present currently, in our society.       So I will refrain from that discussion, and also not enter into       it.             I can refer those who desire to know why I do so refrain,             to                  ’Explaining The Scale Of Sanity’ {HRI 20040619-V3.4}                    (19 June 2004) (Version 3.4 on 2 Sept 2004) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/alt.education/msg/7ee775b1a7d5b10f?… ‘ I do however like to mention, what a Bach listener recently used in  his signature to a New Year’s wish:       "I listen to Bach to clear my head, first thing in the morning        starting the day, and last thing at night.        He’s my handle on the possibility of continuing human-ness and        human creativity in an increasingly inhumane and destructive        world." The world he may see and understand, is compassionately seen and deeply  understood, in      ’Justice – Definition of Justice, What is Justice’       {HRI 20051219-V1.2}        (19 December 2005 – Version 1.2 on 24 Dec 2005) http://groups.google.com/group/human-rights-issues/msg/a27719f3ad5679… That Justice, is my very achievable wish for you, also for the New Year  and for the years to come, especially for my faithful readers, yes,  for you, from Koos Nolst Trenite "Cause Trinity" human rights philosopher and poet                                        ’Solomon’s wisdom was greater                                                   than the wisdom of                                              all the men of the East,                                                          and greater                                         than all the wisdom of Egypt.’                                                         1 Kings 4:30 References: (nn) ‘The Nature of War’ {HRI 20051027-V1.6}        (27 Oct 2005 – Version 1.6 on 7 Nov 2005) http://groups.google.com/group/human-rights-issues/msg/3a99ee7b45f311… ‘ (p1) ‘The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth – Introduction: Life Forms’       {HRI 20010829-pi1-V1.1}        (29 August 2001 – part issue 1 Version 1.1 on 8 Aug 2005) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/ca03e63aa… (p2) ‘The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth – Introduction: Our Planet’       {HRI 20010829-pi2-V1.1}        (29 August 2001 – part issue 2 Version 1.1 on 9 Aug 2005) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/660053d95… (p3) ‘The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth – The Denial’       {HRI 20010829-pi3-V1.1}        (29 August 2001 – part issue 3 Version 1.1 on 10 Aug 2005) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/252973265… (p4) ‘The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth       – Some Fine Particle Physics’ {HRI 20010829-pi4-V2.0}        (29 August 2001 – part issue 4 Version 2.0 on 11 Aug 2005) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/a5c1ca01f… (p5) ‘The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth       – The Nature Of The Physical Universe’ {HRI 20010829-pi5-V1.2}        (29 August 2001 – part issue 5 Version 1.2 on 12 Aug 2005) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/8d4e1bb64… (p6) ‘The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth       – Opposing The Nature Of The Creation’ {HRI 20010829-pi6-V2.0}        (29 August 2001 – part issue 6 Version 2.0 on 15 Aug 2005) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/70dd57d6d… (p7) ‘The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth       – Life Energy Particles And Your Body’ {HRI 20010829-pi7-V2.0}        (29 August 2001 – part issue 7 Version 2.0 on 16 Aug 2005) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/b030e02be… (p8) ‘The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth – Life Energy Particles       – Perception And Motion’ {HRI 20010829-pi8-V1.2}        (29 August 2001 – part issue 8 Version 1.2 on 18 Aug 2005) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/48c043440… (p9) ‘The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth – Life Energy Particles       – Perception At A Distance’ {HRI 20010829-pi9-V2.0}        (29 August 2001 – part issue 9 Version 2.0 on 21 Aug 2005) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/3c571f55d… ‘ (nn) ‘You Prefer To Feel The Pleasant, Caring MASK Of Criminal Minds’        (27 July 2005 – Quoted from {HRI 20040920-V2.4} ) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/sci.anthropology/msg/bb346d9baa4814… (nn) ‘The Feeling "When God Has Left You…"       – Introduction to ‘What is Hell’ ‘ {HRI 20031124-V3.2}        (24 November 2003 – Version 3.2 on 16 May 2005) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/alt.religion/msg/3c6799e5a78fbda5?f… (nn) ‘Issue Note V3.0 on ‘The Hippocrates Syndrome       – Current State of Mental Health Care And Understanding       – Consequences For Decision Makers, Caretakers And Caregivers’ ‘        (27 September 2005) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/7e28b77daa515f63?fwc=1 ‘ Verification:         http://www.angelfire.com/space/platoworld Copyright 2005 by Koos Nolst Trenite – human rights philosopher  and poet This is ‘learnware’ – it may not be altered, and it is free for  anyone who learns from it, and (even if he can not learn from it)  who passes it on unaltered, and with this message included,  to others who might be able to learn from it. None of my writings may be used, ever, to support any political  or religious or scientific agenda, but only to educate, and to  encourage people to judge un-dominated and for themselves,  about any organizations or individuals. Send free-of-Envy and free-of-Hate, Beautiful e-mails to:  PlatoWorld at Lycos.com   (address unreadable for Internet robots

Response:

Well if it was between Bach and Rap, I unfortunately might have a hard time choosing. There is only one station that I know of that has good tunes, a rather new selection, not too fast ( I do like faster though, matches my anxiety) and not too slow. Its channel 35 on Sirius Radio If they can duplicate that 3times over I might resubscribe. The rest of the stations even on satelite suck to me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Extremely High Performances of Bach – Introduction to Bach (Johann Sebastian Bach)                                                    31 December 2005                                         {HRI 20051021-V3.2-Addition} Extremely High Quality Performances of the music created by Johann Sebastian Bach (music usually referred to simply as ‘Bach’):      1. Oboe Concertos BWV 1053R, 1056R, 1059R, 1060R         performed by Goritzki, oboe, and Rilling, conductor.      2. Violin Solo – the ‘Chaconne’ and some other parts from the         Sonatas and Partitas for violin solo,         performed by James Ehnes, violin.      3. Mass in B minor ‘Hohe Messe’         performed by Karajan, conductor.      4. Saint Matthew Passion ‘Matthaeus Passion’         performed by Klemperer, conductor.      The performers make a considerable difference, which is why      I mention them, here            - however, there are very many, very high quality              performances of Bach, and so I had to call these              Extremely High Quality Performances, and              to serve as a possible introduction to Bach, I chose              only four recordings;            - if by way of introduction to Bach, then maybe they are              listened to in the order suggested above. ‘ ‘     ‘Bach Pulling People Out Of Hell’ {HRI 20051021-V3.2}       (21 October 2005 – Version 3.2 on 13 Dec 2005) http://groups.google.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/aa3efef314af… ‘ Now I am not at all going to discuss what is ‘Extremely High Quality Performance’ of Johann Sebastian Bach.      It is rather so, that you either can hear it, and want to hear      it – or you can not hear it, or do not want to hear it.            Discussing it – with some fruits resulting – would            pre-suppose an ability and knowledge                  to define Music                       (not to mention the ability and knowledge                        to define Beauty)            - an (amount of) ability and knowledge that is not              present currently, in our society.      So I will refrain from that discussion, and also not enter into      it.            I can refer those who desire to know why I do so refrain,            to                 ‘Explaining The Scale Of Sanity’ {HRI 20040619-V3.4}                   (19 June 2004) (Version 3.4 on 2 Sept 2004) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/alt.education/msg/7ee775b1a7d5b10f?… ‘ I do however like to mention, what a Bach listener recently used in his signature to a New Year’s wish:      "I listen to Bach to clear my head, first thing in the morning       starting the day, and last thing at night.       He’s my handle on the possibility of continuing human-ness and       human creativity in an increasingly inhumane and destructive       world." The world he may see and understand, is compassionately seen and deeply understood, in     ‘Justice – Definition of Justice, What is Justice’      {HRI 20051219-V1.2}       (19 December 2005 – Version 1.2 on 24 Dec 2005) http://groups.google.com/group/human-rights-issues/msg/a27719f3ad5679… That Justice, is my very achievable wish for you, also for the New Year and for the years to come, especially for my faithful readers, yes, for you, from Koos Nolst Trenite "Cause Trinity" human rights philosopher and poet                                       ‘Solomon’s wisdom was greater                                                  than the wisdom of                                             all the men of the East,                                                         and greater                                        than all the wisdom of Egypt.’                                                        1 Kings 4:30 References: (nn) ‘The Nature of War’ {HRI 20051027-V1.6}       (27 Oct 2005 – Version 1.6 on 7 Nov 2005) http://groups.google.com/group/human-rights-issues/msg/3a99ee7b45f311… ‘ (p1) ‘The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth – Introduction: Life Forms’      {HRI 20010829-pi1-V1.1}       (29 August 2001 – part issue 1 Version 1.1 on 8 Aug 2005) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/ca03e63aa… (p2) ‘The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth – Introduction: Our Planet’      {HRI 20010829-pi2-V1.1}       (29 August 2001 – part issue 2 Version 1.1 on 9 Aug 2005) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/660053d95… (p3) ‘The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth – The Denial’      {HRI 20010829-pi3-V1.1}       (29 August 2001 – part issue 3 Version 1.1 on 10 Aug 2005) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/252973265… (p4) ‘The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth      - Some Fine Particle Physics’ {HRI 20010829-pi4-V2.0}       (29 August 2001 – part issue 4 Version 2.0 on 11 Aug 2005) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/a5c1ca01f… (p5) ‘The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth      - The Nature Of The Physical Universe’ {HRI 20010829-pi5-V1.2}       (29 August 2001 – part issue 5 Version 1.2 on 12 Aug 2005) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/8d4e1bb64… (p6) ‘The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth      - Opposing The Nature Of The Creation’ {HRI 20010829-pi6-V2.0}       (29 August 2001 – part issue 6 Version 2.0 on 15 Aug 2005) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/70dd57d6d… (p7) ‘The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth      - Life Energy Particles And Your Body’ {HRI 20010829-pi7-V2.0}       (29 August 2001 – part issue 7 Version 2.0 on 16 Aug 2005) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/b030e02be… (p8) ‘The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth – Life Energy Particles      - Perception And Motion’ {HRI 20010829-pi8-V1.2}       (29 August 2001 – part issue 8 Version 1.2 on 18 Aug 2005) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/48c043440… (p9) ‘The Nature Of Life As Seen From Earth – Life Energy Particles      - Perception At A Distance’ {HRI 20010829-pi9-V2.0}       (29 August 2001 – part issue 9 Version 2.0 on 21 Aug 2005) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/Fine-Particle-Physics/msg/3c571f55d… ‘ (nn) ‘You Prefer To Feel The Pleasant, Caring MASK Of Criminal Minds’       (27 July 2005 – Quoted from {HRI 20040920-V2.4} ) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/sci.anthropology/msg/bb346d9baa4814… (nn) ‘The Feeling "When God Has Left You…"      - Introduction to ‘What is Hell’ ‘ {HRI 20031124-V3.2}       (24 November 2003 – Version 3.2 on 16 May 2005) http://www.googlegroups.com/group/alt.religion/msg/3c6799e5a78fbda5?f… (nn) ‘Issue Note V3.0 on ‘The Hippocrates Syndrome      - Current State of Mental Health Care And Understanding      - Consequences For Decision Makers, Caretakers And Caregivers’ ‘       (27 September 2005) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/7e28b77daa515f63?fwc=1 ‘ Verification:        http://www.angelfire.com/space/platoworld Copyright 2005 by Koos Nolst Trenite – human rights philosopher and poet This is ‘learnware’ – it may not be altered, and it is free for anyone who learns from it, and (even if he can not learn from it) who passes it on unaltered, and with this message included, to others who might be able to learn from it. None of my writings may be used, ever, to support any political or religious or scientific agenda, but only to educate, and to encourage people to judge un-dominated and for themselves, about any organizations or individuals. Send free-of-Envy and free-of-Hate, Beautiful e-mails to: PlatoWorld at Lycos.com  (address unreadable for Internet robots

Response:

"FLIGHT records and other evidence points to Poland and Romania as countries that allowed their territory to be used by the CIA to hold top suspected al-Qaeda captives, Human Rights Watch said overnight. Tom Malinowski, the Washington director of the human rights group, said the evidence, though circumstantial, strongly pointed to Poland and Romania as being among the unidentified eastern European countries referred to in a Washington Post report yesterday on secret CIA-run prisons. Mr Malinowski said sources in Afghanistan told the New York-based rights organisation that top al-Qaeda suspects, including Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, were moved out of Afghanistan in September 2003. The same month, a Boeing 737 leased by the CIA to transport prisoners departed from Kabul and made stops at remote airfields in Poland and Romania before continuing on to Morocco and then to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, he said. "It’s a large aircraft so one could imagine a large group of detainees flying on this plane, as against some other smaller executive jets that they used," he said. "The fact that it stops in eastern Europe, then Morocco and then Guantanamo suggests different classes of prisoners being deposited in different places," he said." http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17136204-1702,00.html?from=rss

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And I turned him into the character Dwight K. Schrute (The Office) Tues. Evenings.

Response:

And I turned him into the character Dwight K. Schrute (The Office) Tues. Evenings.

No charge fellas, Gratis. You’re welcome.

Response:

No charge fellas, Gratis. You’re welcome.

Then you left the men’s room bathroom, secure in the knowledge that the $15 you would have pocketed might just generate enough good will among the grips and janitors for them to put in a good word for your new sitcom idea. Seriously, though, if you think the NBC ‘version’ of The Office is anything but a pile of shit, you are either retarded, or have never seen the original BBC show, which is among the finest comedies ever made.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Then I left the men’s room bathroom, secure in the knowledge that the $15 I would have pocketed might just generate enough good will among the grips and janitors for them to put in a good word for my new NBC Dateline defense. Seriously, though, I have been milking my Mary Moonbat sock. More seriously, I hope you think my nude shot aired tonight at 8PM Dateline NBC is cute. Bail me?  

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I, Marc Mulay, am a compulsive cum guzzler!

Response:

Guess where this list of idiots will be Sunday? Who do you think has the lowest IQ? Hey, Bruce Morgen or Mary Stanley, not to make fun of your IQs, but will you be there Sunday with them? Will you give us some firsthand reports? – Jessica Lange, actor – George Galloway, British Member of Parliament – Ramsey Clark, former U.S. attorney general – Cindy Sheehan*   – Dolores Huerta, Co-Founder, United Farm Workers of America – Malik Rahim, New Orleans community activist who survived Hurricane Katrina – Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney – Ralph Nader – Mahdi Bray, Exec. Dir., Muslim American Society Freedom Foundation – Mara Verheyden-Hilliard, attorney/co-founder, Partnership for Civil Justice, National Lawyers Guild – Elias Rashmawi, National Council of Arab Americans – Brian Becker, National Coordinator, A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition – Lynne Stewart, human rights attorney – Rev. Al Sharpton* – Anita Dennis, mother of Iraq War veteran / resister – Clayola Brown, President of the A. Philip Randolph Institute, Vice President of UNITE HERE** – Ben Dupuy, Former Ambassador At Large for the government of President Jean-Bertrand Aristide – Jos Williams, President, President of the Metropolitan Washington Council, AFL-CIO – Michael Berg, father of Nicholas Berg    <– didn’t he go to Iraq on his own free will? – Christine Araquel, Alliance for a Just and Lasting Peace in the Philippines – Andy Thayer, Equality Campaign – Curtis Muhammed, Community Labor Union of New Orleans* – Margaret Prescod, Global Women’s Strike – Hadi Jawad, founder of Crawford Peace House – Chris Silvera, Teamsters Black Caucus – Musa Al-Hindi, Al-Awda National – Michel Shehadeh, L.A-8 defendant, a Palestinian activist framed COINTELPRO-style – Nancy Wolforth, Executive Vice President, AFL-CIO – Manuel Santos, Socialist Front of Puerto Rico – Brenda Stokely, Million Worker March, New York City Labor Against the War – Peta Lindsay, Youth and Student A.N.S.W.E.R. Student, Howard University student – Mounzer Sleiman, National Council of Arab Americans – Macrina Cardenas, Mexicanos Sin Fronteras – Jeanette Caceres, Spoken word artist from New York University – Gloria La Riva, National Committee to Free the Five – Riya Ortiz, Network in Solidarity with the People of the Philippines, Campaign for Justice Not War – Larry Holmes, Troops Out Now Coalition – Chuck Kaufman, Nicaragua Network – Women’s Anti-Imperialist League – Representative of Bayan USA – Eugene Puryear, Youth and Student A.N.S.W.E.R. Student, Howard University student – Patti Smith, singer – Phil Donahue, unemployed

Response:

Oh great, he’s been watching Team America again!

Response:

you aren’t Marc Mulay – he’s funnier, more vulgar and meaner than you. But, it’s interesting to note who you aspire to imitate. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Guess where this list of idiots will be Sunday? Who do you think has the lowest IQ? Hey, Bruce Morgen or Mary Stanley, not to make fun of your IQs, but will you be there Sunday with them? Will you give us some firsthand reports? – Jessica Lange, actor – George Galloway, British Member of Parliament – Ramsey Clark, former U.S. attorney general – Cindy Sheehan* – Dolores Huerta, Co-Founder, United Farm Workers of America – Malik Rahim, New Orleans community activist who survived Hurricane Katrina – Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney – Ralph Nader – Mahdi Bray, Exec. Dir., Muslim American Society Freedom Foundation – Mara Verheyden-Hilliard, attorney/co-founder, Partnership for Civil Justice, National Lawyers Guild – Elias Rashmawi, National Council of Arab Americans – Brian Becker, National Coordinator, A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition – Lynne Stewart, human rights attorney – Rev. Al Sharpton* – Anita Dennis, mother of Iraq War veteran / resister – Clayola Brown, President of the A. Philip Randolph Institute, Vice President of UNITE HERE** – Ben Dupuy, Former Ambassador At Large for the government of President Jean-Bertrand Aristide – Jos Williams, President, President of the Metropolitan Washington Council, AFL-CIO – Michael Berg, father of Nicholas Berg    <– didn’t he go to Iraq on his own free will? – Christine Araquel, Alliance for a Just and Lasting Peace in the Philippines – Andy Thayer, Equality Campaign – Curtis Muhammed, Community Labor Union of New Orleans* – Margaret Prescod, Global Women’s Strike – Hadi Jawad, founder of Crawford Peace House – Chris Silvera, Teamsters Black Caucus – Musa Al-Hindi, Al-Awda National – Michel Shehadeh, L.A-8 defendant, a Palestinian activist framed COINTELPRO-style – Nancy Wolforth, Executive Vice President, AFL-CIO – Manuel Santos, Socialist Front of Puerto Rico – Brenda Stokely, Million Worker March, New York City Labor Against the War – Peta Lindsay, Youth and Student A.N.S.W.E.R. Student, Howard University student – Mounzer Sleiman, National Council of Arab Americans – Macrina Cardenas, Mexicanos Sin Fronteras – Jeanette Caceres, Spoken word artist from New York University – Gloria La Riva, National Committee to Free the Five – Riya Ortiz, Network in Solidarity with the People of the Philippines, Campaign for Justice Not War – Larry Holmes, Troops Out Now Coalition – Chuck Kaufman, Nicaragua Network – Women’s Anti-Imperialist League – Representative of Bayan USA – Eugene Puryear, Youth and Student A.N.S.W.E.R. Student, Howard University student – Patti Smith, singer – Phil Donahue, unemployed

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Guess where this list of idiots will be Sunday? Who do you think has the lowest IQ? Hey, Bruce Morgen or Mary Stanley, not to make fun of your IQs, but will you be there Sunday with them? Will you give us some firsthand reports? – Jessica Lange, actor – George Galloway, British Member of Parliament – Ramsey Clark, former U.S. attorney general – Cindy Sheehan*   – Dolores Huerta, Co-Founder, United Farm Workers of America – Malik Rahim, New Orleans community activist who survived Hurricane Katrina – Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney – Ralph Nader – Mahdi Bray, Exec. Dir., Muslim American Society Freedom Foundation – Mara Verheyden-Hilliard, attorney/co-founder, Partnership for Civil Justice, National Lawyers Guild – Elias Rashmawi, National Council of Arab Americans – Brian Becker, National Coordinator, A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition – Lynne Stewart, human rights attorney – Rev. Al Sharpton* – Anita Dennis, mother of Iraq War veteran / resister – Clayola Brown, President of the A. Philip Randolph Institute, Vice President of UNITE HERE** – Ben Dupuy, Former Ambassador At Large for the government of President Jean-Bertrand Aristide – Jos Williams, President, President of the Metropolitan Washington Council, AFL-CIO – Michael Berg, father of Nicholas Berg    <– didn’t he go to Iraq on his own free will? – Christine Araquel, Alliance for a Just and Lasting Peace in the Philippines – Andy Thayer, Equality Campaign – Curtis Muhammed, Community Labor Union of New Orleans* – Margaret Prescod, Global Women’s Strike – Hadi Jawad, founder of Crawford Peace House – Chris Silvera, Teamsters Black Caucus – Musa Al-Hindi, Al-Awda National – Michel Shehadeh, L.A-8 defendant, a Palestinian activist framed COINTELPRO-style – Nancy Wolforth, Executive Vice President, AFL-CIO – Manuel Santos, Socialist Front of Puerto Rico – Brenda Stokely, Million Worker March, New York City Labor Against the War – Peta Lindsay, Youth and Student A.N.S.W.E.R. Student, Howard University student – Mounzer Sleiman, National Council of Arab Americans – Macrina Cardenas, Mexicanos Sin Fronteras – Jeanette Caceres, Spoken word artist from New York University – Gloria La Riva, National Committee to Free the Five – Riya Ortiz, Network in Solidarity with the People of the Philippines, Campaign for Justice Not War – Larry Holmes, Troops Out Now Coalition – Chuck Kaufman, Nicaragua Network – Women’s Anti-Imperialist League – Representative of Bayan USA – Eugene Puryear, Youth and Student A.N.S.W.E.R. Student, Howard University student – Patti Smith, singer – Phil Donahue, unemployed

Just the list of the self-anointed intellectual elite that posts in AGA is worth a moment of consideration. Bruce "Pee Wee" Morgan – Self Proclaimed "geni0us" who doesn’t seem to be able to undestand dates or line width in newsposters. Kemmy Wilson – Klueless Kanadian who claims to be a programmer but can barely distinguish between usenet and email, and is stupid enough to post binaries and then blames the software. "Mr Soul"("140 IQ" *snicker*), Zootgirl, Whine/play on seem to wish to advise the unwashed multitudes but are apparently unable to comprehend the advanced concepts of quoting/attributing newsgroup postings. Sort of like the drunk on the corner howling out random ravings at the passers-by of the moment. Repair Gurl – apparently a frustrated Jr. High School English teacher. Marc Mulish and E.D. – at least occasionally post an entertaining rant but tend to confuse incoherence with intelligence. A bit more techically competent than the rest, having discovered the art of sock farming. The real hoot is that most of these kind folks who are here in AGA out of the goodness of their hearts to help the rest of us ignorant folks discover the correct way to live, think and believe exhibit a common technological ineptitude that reveals their true level of competence. Apologies to any of the lesser ko0Ks and drive-thrus who got left out. — |   ^        JOIN THE |  /"   ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN |   /    TO RID USENET OF |   X    NATTERING FUCKWITS |  /    

Response:

Why Clausel, I don’t accpet your apologies for leaving me out. Truly, I am crushed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Apologies to any of the lesser ko0Ks and drive-thrus who got left out. — |   ^        JOIN THE |  /"   ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN |   /    TO RID USENET OF |   X    NATTERING FUCKWITS |  /

Response:

you aren’t Marc Mulay – he’s funnier, more vulgar and meaner than you. But, it’s interesting to note who you aspire to imitate.

Who is Mulay? It’s Mooley, you fat midget. I don’t aspire to anything. Hey, Bruce Morgen or Mary Stanley, not to make fun of your IQs, but will you be there Sunday with them? Will you give us some firsthand reports?

So tell us Rosanne, er Mary, are you going??

Response:

Why Clausel, I don’t accpet your apologies for leaving me out. Truly, I am crushed.

Evidently your reading and comprehension skills are almost as good as those of "Pee Wee" Morgan. — |   ^        JOIN THE |  /"   ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN |   /    TO RID USENET OF |   X    NATTERING FUCKWITS |  /    

Response:

courageously avow: you aren’t Marc Mulay – he’s funnier, more vulgar and meaner than you. But, it’s interesting to note who you aspire to imitate. Who is Mulay? It’s Mooley, you fat midget. I don’t aspire to anything.

And you have been such an overachiever. Hey, Bruce Morgen or Mary Stanley, not to make fun of your IQs, but will you be there Sunday with them? Will you give us some firsthand reports? So tell us Rosanne, er Mary, are you going??

Ken Wilson Proud Owner of Lord Valve, PMG, John Wheaton, Claude Lucas,  Freep the Xenophobe, Chuck, pseudobacker, and the rest of the  Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explanations (URINE)  and, at his own request, Karl Rovershank (aka Lars from Mars) Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/

Response:

You’d be lucky to get yourself a date with Rossane. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – you aren’t Marc Mulay – he’s funnier, more vulgar and meaner than you. But, it’s interesting to note who you aspire to imitate. Who is Mulay? It’s Mooley, you fat midget. I don’t aspire to anything. Hey, Bruce Morgen or Mary Stanley, not to make fun of your IQs, but will you be there Sunday with them? Will you give us some firsthand reports? So tell us Rosanne, er Mary, are you going??

Response:

no unless you are wearing the moolie costume. I was on Moolie’s list but not on your (second) list. I do apologize for my typing. I’ve been plastering walls all day and my hands are very tired. Tell us about YOUR day.

Response:

Shin Bet `failed to prevent’ Jewish terror

Screw them – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – By Amos Harel http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/627742.html Shin Bet head Yuval Diskin said yesterday that he viewed the two Jewish terror attacks carried out during the disengagement period, in which a total of eight Arabs were killed, as a failure on the part of the security service. On August 4, Eden Natan-Zada, a Jewish soldier who defected from the Israel Defense Forces to protest the disengagement plan, shot dead four Israeli Arabs in the northern town of Shfaram. On August 17, Asher Weisgan, a resident of the West Bank settlement of Shiloh, opened fire on Palestinian coworkers, killing four. Diskin said both terrorists acted on their own and had not told anyone of their plans. Natan-Zada even misled his close friends, telling them on the day of the attack that he was heading for Gush Katif, said Diskin. He said an internal Shin Bet investigation revealed the agency had made a "judgment error" by failing to recommend that Natan-Zada not be drafted, given his ties to the outlawed extreme-right Kach movement. "I will not shirk our responsibility," Diskin said. "There is clearly a failure in the information transfer interface between us and the army." However, Diskin insisted that the extent to which the Shin Bet attempts to curb free _expression must remain limited. "We won’t be the thought police," he said. "It would be a mistake for us to start preventing every youth from Gush Katif who stood near the synagogue in Kfar Darom from joining the [elite] Egoz unit." Diskin also said the Shin Bet does not know of any concrete plans to attack Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, but that the Shin Bet has not changed its assessment regarding the serious threat to his life and has not lessened the protection it accords the premier. The Shin Bet chief also called on the state to demonstrate understanding toward the evacuees from Gaza and the northern West Bank, saying that the level of violence during the disengagement was low. "The state must not push this population into a corner," he said, adding that he was uncomfortable when he saw media reports that described the army’s evacuation of the settlers as a victory "in the style of the Six-Day War." "The other side of the conflict wasn’t Hamas or Islamic Jihad, but Israeli citizens," said Diskin. "Even the incident on the roof of the synagogue in Kfar Darom would not have taken place without the media." Friends of Al Aqsa is a voluntary organisation concerned with the defence of Al Aqsa Haram Sharif and the protection of Palestinian Human Rights. http://www.aqsa.org.uk

Response:

WELL ALL THE ISLAMIC SAVAGE BARBARIAN TERROR LOVING LUNATICS SHOULD BE KILLED. PETER

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Shin Bet `failed to prevent’ Jewish terror By Amos Harel http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/627742.html Shin Bet head Yuval Diskin said yesterday that he viewed the two Jewish terror attacks carried out during the disengagement period, in which a total of eight Arabs were killed, as a failure on the part of the security service. On August 4, Eden Natan-Zada, a Jewish soldier who defected from the Israel Defense Forces to protest the disengagement plan, shot dead four Israeli Arabs in the northern town of Shfaram. On August 17, Asher Weisgan, a resident of the West Bank settlement of Shiloh, opened fire on Palestinian coworkers, killing four. Diskin said both terrorists acted on their own and had not told anyone of their plans. Natan-Zada even misled his close friends, telling them on the day of the attack that he was heading for Gush Katif, said Diskin. He said an internal Shin Bet investigation revealed the agency had made a "judgment error" by failing to recommend that Natan-Zada not be drafted, given his ties to the outlawed extreme-right Kach movement. "I will not shirk our responsibility," Diskin said. "There is clearly a failure in the information transfer interface between us and the army." However, Diskin insisted that the extent to which the Shin Bet attempts to curb free _expression must remain limited. "We won’t be the thought police," he said. "It would be a mistake for us to start preventing every youth from Gush Katif who stood near the synagogue in Kfar Darom from joining the [elite] Egoz unit." Diskin also said the Shin Bet does not know of any concrete plans to attack Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, but that the Shin Bet has not changed its assessment regarding the serious threat to his life and has not lessened the protection it accords the premier. The Shin Bet chief also called on the state to demonstrate understanding toward the evacuees from Gaza and the northern West Bank, saying that the level of violence during the disengagement was low. "The state must not push this population into a corner," he said, adding that he was uncomfortable when he saw media reports that described the army’s evacuation of the settlers as a victory "in the style of the Six-Day War." "The other side of the conflict wasn’t Hamas or Islamic Jihad, but Israeli citizens," said Diskin. "Even the incident on the roof of the synagogue in Kfar Darom would not have taken place without the media." Friends of Al Aqsa is a voluntary organisation concerned with the defence of Al Aqsa Haram Sharif and the protection of Palestinian Human Rights. http://www.aqsa.org.uk

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Shin Bet `failed to prevent’ Jewish terror By Amos Harel http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/627742.html Shin Bet head Yuval Diskin said yesterday that he viewed the two Jewish terror attacks carried out during the disengagement period, in which a total of eight Arabs were killed, as a failure on the part of the security service. On August 4, Eden Natan-Zada, a Jewish soldier who defected from the Israel Defense Forces to protest the disengagement plan, shot dead four Israeli Arabs in the northern town of Shfaram. On August 17, Asher Weisgan, a resident of the West Bank settlement of Shiloh, opened fire on Palestinian coworkers, killing four. Diskin said both terrorists acted on their own and had not told anyone of their plans. Natan-Zada even misled his close friends, telling them on the day of the attack that he was heading for Gush Katif, said Diskin. He said an internal Shin Bet investigation revealed the agency had made a "judgment error" by failing to recommend that Natan-Zada not be drafted, given his ties to the outlawed extreme-right Kach movement. "I will not shirk our responsibility," Diskin said. "There is clearly a failure in the information transfer interface between us and the army." However, Diskin insisted that the extent to which the Shin Bet attempts to curb free _expression must remain limited. "We won’t be the thought police," he said. "It would be a mistake for us to start preventing every youth from Gush Katif who stood near the synagogue in Kfar Darom from joining the [elite] Egoz unit." Diskin also said the Shin Bet does not know of any concrete plans to attack Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, but that the Shin Bet has not changed its assessment regarding the serious threat to his life and has not lessened the protection it accords the premier. The Shin Bet chief also called on the state to demonstrate understanding toward the evacuees from Gaza and the northern West Bank, saying that the level of violence during the disengagement was low. "The state must not push this population into a corner," he said, adding that he was uncomfortable when he saw media reports that described the army’s evacuation of the settlers as a victory "in the style of the Six-Day War." "The other side of the conflict wasn’t Hamas or Islamic Jihad, but Israeli citizens," said Diskin. "Even the incident on the roof of the synagogue in Kfar Darom would not have taken place without the media." Friends of Al Aqsa is a voluntary organisation concerned with the defence of Al Aqsa Haram Sharif and the protection of Palestinian Human Rights. http://www.aqsa.org.uk

Very interesting topic

Response:

Shin Bet `failed to prevent’ Jewish terror By Amos Harel http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/627742.html Shin Bet head Yuval Diskin said yesterday that he viewed the two Jewish terror attacks carried out during the disengagement period, in which a total of eight Arabs were killed, as a failure on the part of the security service. On August 4, Eden Natan-Zada, a Jewish soldier who defected from the Israel Defense Forces to protest the disengagement plan, shot dead four Israeli Arabs in the northern town of Shfaram. On August 17, Asher Weisgan, a resident of the West Bank settlement of Shiloh, opened fire on Palestinian coworkers, killing four. Diskin said both terrorists acted on their own and had not told anyone of their plans. Natan-Zada even misled his close friends, telling them on the day of the attack that he was heading for Gush Katif, said Diskin. He said an internal Shin Bet investigation revealed the agency had made a "judgment error" by failing to recommend that Natan-Zada not be drafted, given his ties to the outlawed extreme-right Kach movement. "I will not shirk our responsibility," Diskin said. "There is clearly a failure in the information transfer interface between us and the army." However, Diskin insisted that the extent to which the Shin Bet attempts to curb free _expression must remain limited. "We won’t be the thought police," he said. "It would be a mistake for us to start preventing every youth from Gush Katif who stood near the synagogue in Kfar Darom from joining the [elite] Egoz unit." Diskin also said the Shin Bet does not know of any concrete plans to attack Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, but that the Shin Bet has not changed its assessment regarding the serious threat to his life and has not lessened the protection it accords the premier. The Shin Bet chief also called on the state to demonstrate understanding toward the evacuees from Gaza and the northern West Bank, saying that the level of violence during the disengagement was low. "The state must not push this population into a corner," he said, adding that he was uncomfortable when he saw media reports that described the army’s evacuation of the settlers as a victory "in the style of the Six-Day War." "The other side of the conflict wasn’t Hamas or Islamic Jihad, but Israeli citizens," said Diskin. "Even the incident on the roof of the synagogue in Kfar Darom would not have taken place without the media." Friends of Al Aqsa is a voluntary organisation concerned with the defence of Al Aqsa Haram Sharif and the protection of Palestinian Human Rights. http://www.aqsa.org.uk

Response: