On a general note
Question:
I have followed this newsgroup for a month or so and can’t help thinking that people are often very negative about personality disorders. I get the impression that many people posting have had bad experiences with sufferers, either as partners of them or as professionals working with them. I would like to say that I am very optimistic about the help that can be offered to people with personality disorders, through therapy and medication. I have certainly experienced this myself. Also, my perception of people who are vulnerable in this way is that they desperately need help. What seems to be difficult is that others are not sure whether or not they can help, or whether they should get too involved in the problems. I personally have noticed that people with personality problems, and who are aware of them, have a great deal to offer in the way of insight and sympathy to others, and have many other talents besides. It is often too easy to focus on the bad side of a person with problems, in order to justify one’s reaction to them. Also, I think it is a part of human life that there are some who suffer from mental/emotional disorders, just as they do physical disorders. Surely, it is the aim of this newsgroup to support the people after whom it is named. Too often, I feel that advice is given to cease a relationship with the person who is suffering, when really, I think that there is a vulnerable person out there who needs the support of sharing their problems, which can be given in part through this newsgroup. My general feeling is that a relationship with someone with problems is complex, but not without its rewards. Even if people don’t want to get too involved with someone who is damaging their lives, or manipulating them unbearably, I suggest that at least they recommend that the person suffering should seek help and start along the path of self-knowledge and healing. Sally N.
Response:
here here Michelle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Wed, 5 May 1999 20:27:09 +0100, "Sally N." <na…@iname.com> wrote: >I have followed this newsgroup for a month or so and can’t help thinking >that people are often very negative about personality disorders. I get the >impression that many people posting have had bad experiences with sufferers, >either as partners of them or as professionals working with them. >I would like to say that I am very optimistic about the help that can be >offered to people with personality disorders, through therapy and >medication. I have certainly experienced this myself. Also, my perception >of people who are vulnerable in this way is that they desperately need help. >What seems to be difficult is that others are not sure whether or not they >can help, or whether they should get too involved in the problems. >I personally have noticed that people with personality problems, and who are >aware of them, have a great deal to offer in the way of insight and sympathy >to others, and have many other talents besides. It is often too easy to >focus on the bad side of a person with problems, in order to justify one’s >reaction to them. >Also, I think it is a part of human life that there are some who suffer from >mental/emotional disorders, just as they do physical disorders. Surely, it >is the aim of this newsgroup to support the people after whom it is named. >Too often, I feel that advice is given to cease a relationship with the >person who is suffering, when really, I think that there is a vulnerable >person out there who needs the support of sharing their problems, which can >be given in part through this newsgroup. >My general feeling is that a relationship with someone with problems is >complex, but not without its rewards. Even if people don’t want to get too >involved with someone who is damaging their lives, or manipulating them >unbearably, I suggest that at least they recommend that the person suffering >should seek help and start along the path of self-knowledge and healing. >Sally N.
Response:
Sally, it was good to read your post, as someone who has acknowledged their PD and has worked on it. Unfortunately, there are those of us (myself included) that have tried YEARS to "keep" people in their lives with PDs (mother has BPD). Mother refuses to get help and says she is healed. I don’t see it. It was a hard choice to make when I had to cut her out of my life. She was still working to destroy me even at my age (31). Some people with PDs are toxic, and aren’t interested in changing. Those are the ones that are hard to stay with. I tried, but it just kept killing me. It is good to hear that there are people with PDs that seek treatment and work through things, and I don’t take anything away from you for that, I just would remind you that those who DON’T seek treatment or change make lives miserable for those around them trying to love them. Its a hard thing to do and I applaud you for the work you’ve done. I wish my mother had done the same.
Response:
Sally wrote: >I personally have noticed that people with personality problems, and who are >aware of them, have a great deal to offer in the way of insight and sympathy >to others,
I forgot to respond to this part in particular. I have found, in my case, that my mother is extremely NOT insightful or sympathetic. Everything is about HER and what she demands. She is BPD and does not use her own suicidal history to understand others’ depression. She merely says they are having a pity party. I wouldn’t call that understanding.
Response:
Barbieenvy wrote…. >I forgot to respond to this part in particular. I have found, in my case, >that >my mother is extremely NOT insightful or sympathetic. Everything is about HER >and what she demands. She is BPD and does not use her own suicidal history to >understand others’ depression. She merely says they are having a pity party. >I >wouldn’t call that understanding.
Does anyone know anything about the fine line between a person with BPD who has the facility or the wherewithal or willpower or awareness to be able to try and change and one who cannot or will not?
Response:
>Does anyone know anything about the fine line between a person with BPD who >has the facility or the wherewithal or willpower or awareness to be able to try >and change and one who cannot or will not?
I have no idea. I used to think if they just found a relationship worth living for they would change. But that’s not been my mother’s answer. I used to think that if I gave her freedom to be herself and didn’t hurt her by setting boundaries that would be the answer. It wasn’t. I used to think if I was a better daughter then she would get better for "me" – stupid me, didn’t work. I could never be a good enough daughter. No one can. I used to think that there was no cure. I can entertain the thought that some recover, but understand the research to say its rare.
Response:
In article <19990505160731.18447.00002…@ng-fd1.aol.com>, barbiee…@aol.com (BarbieEnvy) wrote: > Sally wrote: > >I personally have noticed that people with personality problems, and who are > >aware of them, have a great deal to offer in the way of insight and sympathy > >to others, > I forgot to respond to this part in particular. I have found, in my case, that > my mother is extremely NOT insightful or sympathetic. Everything is about HER > and what she demands. She is BPD and does not use her own suicidal history to > understand others’ depression. She merely says they are having a pity party. I > wouldn’t call that understanding.
Ever read The People of the Lie? That’s a good book for that total lack of empathy! ———–== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==———- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Response:
>Subject: Re: On a general note >From: wmulra…@aol.com (Wmulraney) >Date: 5/5/99 4:29 PM Central Daylight Time >Message-id: <19990505172928.21681.00003…@ng-fp1.aol.com> >Does anyone know anything about the fine line between a person with BPD who >has >the facility or the wherewithal or willpower or awareness to be able to try >and >change and one who cannot or will not?
Possibly it has something to do with denial. Unless you are aware and accept that you have a problem, you are not going to work on it or try to change. Also telling a person they have a problem generally will not motivate them to see that they do. Often it will make them defensive. They have to arrive at the desire to work on their problems on their own. All the people in their lives can do, is not enable them. CG
Response:
>Subject: On a general note >From: "Sally N." <na…@iname.com> >Date: 5/5/99 2:27 PM Central Daylight Time >Message-id: <7gq63e$mm…@news.ox.ac.uk> >I have followed this newsgroup for a month or so and can’t help thinking >that people are often very negative about personality disorders. I get the >impression that many people posting have had bad experiences with sufferers, >either as partners of them or as professionals working with them.
Yes I agree with what you’re saying. There is a lot of pessimism about PD’s, and much of it seems to come from mental health professionals themselves. That PD’s are difficult to treat I’m sure is reality. Possibly many professionals are not really equipped with the right knowledge or have the desire to do so. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I would like to say that I am very optimistic about the help that can be >offered to people with personality disorders, through therapy and >medication. I have certainly experienced this myself. Also, my perception >of people who are vulnerable in this way is that they desperately need help. >What seems to be difficult is that others are not sure whether or not they >can help, or whether they should get too involved in the problems. >I personally have noticed that people with personality problems, and who are >aware of them, have a great deal to offer in the way of insight and sympathy >to others, and have many other talents besides. It is often too easy to >focus on the bad side of a person with problems, in order to justify one’s >reaction to them. >Also, I think it is a part of human life that there are some who suffer from >mental/emotional disorders, just as they do physical disorders. Surely, it >is the aim of this newsgroup to support the people after whom it is named. >Too often, I feel that advice is given to cease a relationship with the >person who is suffering, when really, I think that there is a vulnerable >person out there who needs the support of sharing their problems, which can >be given in part through this newsgroup.
I would never tell anyone to get out of a relationship based on the fact that the other person has a mental disorder. But often people that want out and need to get out of relationships for their own sake, ask for advice. Often if one person in a relationship is to that point, it’s really best in the long run for both to end the relationship, though hardly ever easy to do for many reasons. CG – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->My general feeling is that a relationship with someone with problems is >complex, but not without its rewards. Even if people don’t want to get too >involved with someone who is damaging their lives, or manipulating them >unbearably, I suggest that at least they recommend that the person suffering >should seek help and start along the path of self-knowledge and healing. >Sally N.
Response:
CGRusher wrote >There is a lot of pessimism about PD’s, >and much of it seems to come from mental >health professionals themselves.
Much of the pessimism comes from experience with severe sufferers who lost the ability to learn new behavior (the film The Cable Guy is a hard to watch cautionary tale of BPD that ex-partners instantly recognize as their experience), while a deep understanding of BPD came too late or in retrospect. It seems more that mental health professionals benefiting from the clinical research of the last 25 years have become more and more empathetic to the unique needs of a cruelly traumatized population. Thus the new field of Traumatology. The real changes will start when teaching healthy loving childrearing ("we love you and we will support you in your healthy growth and goals") and child advocacy is a top global priority. (Not to mention setting good examples for our children today by achieving global peace and mutual diverse self esteem ourselves.) An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and there’s information about activism and advocacy at the BPDCentral site, as I’m sure many are aware. God bless and take care.
Response:
>Subject: Re: On a general note >From: "L." <empa…@compassion.edu> >Date: 5/6/99 1:03 AM Central Daylight Time >Message-id: <usrLcX4l#GA.164@cpmsnbbsa02> >CGRusher wrote >>There is a lot of pessimism about PD’s, >>and much of it seems to come from mental >>health professionals themselves.
Empathy said: >Much of the pessimism comes from experience >with severe sufferers who lost the ability to >learn new behavior (the film The Cable Guy >is a hard to watch cautionary tale of BPD that >ex-partners instantly recognize as their >experience), while a deep understanding of BPD >came too late or in retrospect.
I haven’t seen that movie, but I do know that bpd is too varied to attribute any one character to it. I consider this stereotyping and stigmatizing. It seems more – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->that mental health professionals benefiting from >the clinical research of the last 25 years have >become more and more empathetic to the >unique needs of a cruelly traumatized population. >Thus the new field of Traumatology. >The real changes will start when teaching healthy >loving childrearing ("we love you and we will support >you in your healthy growth and goals") and child >advocacy is a top global priority. (Not to mention >setting good examples for our children today by >achieving global peace and mutual diverse self >esteem ourselves.) An ounce of prevention is >worth a pound of cure, and there’s information >about activism and advocacy at the BPDCentral site, >as I’m sure many are aware.
Yes and personally I think the owner of that site is adding to the stigma. Possibly is doing some other good stuff, but she’s not open to examining herself. CG – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->God bless and take care.
Response:
>Subject: Re: On a general note >From: barbiee…@aol.com (BarbieEnvy) >Date: 5/5/99 5:15 PM Central Daylight Time >Message-id: <19990505181550.06833.00002…@ng-cq1.aol.com> >>Does anyone know anything about the fine line between a person with BPD who >>has the facility or the wherewithal or willpower or awareness to be able to >try >>and change and one who cannot or will not?
Barbieenvy said: >I have no idea. >I used to think if they just found a relationship worth living for they would >change. But that’s not been my mother’s answer. >I used to think that if I gave her freedom to be herself and didn’t hurt her >by >setting boundaries that would be the answer. It wasn’t. >I used to think if I was a better daughter then she would get better for "me"
It sounds like you were trying to take responsibility for her behavior. That’s part of what I think can be enabling. It’s easy to do with a parent. Have been there myself. A friend of hers, (a therapist) had to sit me down and tell me I was not responsible for her, that I had a right to a life of my own. After I started taking care of myself my mother found it neccessary to deal more with her own problems too. We both still struggle with ourselves. >stupid me, didn’t work. I could never be a good enough daughter. No one can. >I used to think that there was no cure. I can entertain the thought that some >recover, but understand the research to say its rare.
What research is this? I’m not sure recovery or cure in a finite sense is really an issue. When you’ve lived for years and decades coping in certain ways, you can learn how they are not productive in the long run, and change, but often you will still have the tendency to cope in the old ways. There’s a need to be constantly ongaurd, and when you do fall back into old patterns, forgive yourself, dust yourself off and try to learn from the experience. CG – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
Sally N. wrote: >I suggest that at least they recommend >that the person suffering should seek help
Keep lurking and studying. When you deeply understand and have empathy for both sufferers who refuse treatment and those who tried to love them, the last phrase you will use is "at least they can . . . . " about anything. Be easy both on yourself and others; empathy, honesty, forgiveness and compassion is a two way street one day at a time. 
God bless and take care.
Response:
Filed under: Global Activism
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