Activism Change

When my wife left……….

Question:

No Jeri I’m not a troll. I am the product of an abusive relationship. I got the hell kicked out of me.  Bullsh*t. If you were a Navy SEAL, then you would have had some idea as to defending yourself. I’m sure that you are typical of most men, with remarkable upper-body strength… you couldn’t possibly hold her by the wrists, put her in a closet ’til she calmed down, to protect yourself? I’m not saying that she wasn’t abusive. I don’t believe that you couldn’t prevent her from hitting you. There are too many discrepancies in your story.

With all due respect, Lite, do some research on the subject of female on male abuse, *before* you make assumptions that are simply not factual. Ignorance is not a good thing to display. You may want to start with " Not Guilty ", by Dave Thomas. Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "                                          David Gelernter, " 1939 "

Response:

  responding to broken dreams Inc. : I’m sure that you are typical of most men, with remarkable upper-body strength… you couldn’t possibly hold her by the wrists, put her in a closet ’til she calmed down, to protect yourself? Not very good advice for anyone in an abusive relationship.  By attempting to physically control the abuser you are coming down to their level of "it’s Ok to use force to solve a disagreement".

 Okay, it was bad advice. How about leaving? NO one ever got more than ONE chance to strike me. I have been hit only twice by 2 different men. I was gone within the hour. I have no problem realizing that if someone hurts me, then they are very likely to do it, again. I said  the above mainly because I didn’t understand his point of view. I couldn’t imagine just letting someone beat on me.  Also, I did believe that he was a troll (and unfortunately, I still have my doubts). All it really took was his post to MikieMike.  Jeri * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Okay, it was bad advice. How about leaving?

Leaving is good.  I’ve always been an advocate of walking out the door and letting a situation cool off.  It’s not like standing and yelling/fighting/cussing/throwing has a chance of really solving anything.   NO one ever got more than ONE chance to strike me. I have been hit only twice by 2 different men. I was gone within the hour. I have no problem realizing that if someone hurts me, then they are very likely to do it, again. I said  the above mainly because I didn’t understand his point of view. I couldn’t imagine just letting someone beat on me.

I think you said a lot right there.  It’s a mindset.  "I couldn’t imagine just ***letting*** someone beat on me."  By saying what you did YOU keep control of what happens to you.   Also, I did believe that he was a troll (and unfortunately, I still have my doubts).

As do I.   All it really took was his post to MikieMike.

Or the MANY other threads he’s started saying the same thing over and over and over… Victoria Lee

Response:

and if he had defended himself he might have wound up in the slammer. Cops will still just assume the woman is the innocent party.

Actually, there are more women being arrested for DV now that the police are under pressure not to dismiss these calls lightly. And it appears that many in the DV crowd are up in arms over that, and have responded by demanding the the police be "retrained" so as not to arrest women. I provide a copy of a recent Cathy Young article. The New York Times November 26, 1999 Feminists Play the Victim Game By CATHY YOUNG MIDDLETOWN , N.J. — An increasing number of women are being arrested for domestic assaults, and the response to this news shows just how pervasive sexist attitudes still are in our culture. But this time the sexism is coming from feminists and their allies, who insist that most women arrested must have acted in self-defense. This sentimental insistence on female innocence does no service to women, who should be treated as human beings with a capacity for aggression and held equally accountable for their actions. In many states, women now account for a quarter to a third of all domestic violence arrests, up from less than 10 percent a decade ago. The new statistics reflect a reality documented in research: women are perpetrators as well as victims of family violence. A review of 70 studies of domestic violence in which both men and women were interviewed was published in 1998 by Martin Fiebert, a psychologist at California State University at Long Beach. Usually the violence was reciprocal, the research found, with women not only fighting back but initiating attacks; when only one partner was abusive, it was at least as often the woman as the man. And while differences in strength put women at higher risk of serious injury or death, men are hardly invulnerable. According to an article to be published next year in Psychological Bulletin, analyzing data from dozens of studies, men incur a third of injuries in domestic combat. Shouldn’t the growth in female arrests, then, be seen as representing a fairer, more realistic attitude toward gender and aggression? Not according to feminist and other advocacy groups whose ideology equates battering with male oppression of women. They cry "backlash" and claim that women are being penalized for defending themselves. Assertions that female abusers are really victims can be based on rather tortured logic. A 1991 paper by researchers at the Medical College of Wisconsin classified a woman as "abused" if she said that her partner had been the first to use violence in their relationship, even if she was usually the aggressor later on. Women’s advocates also point out that most female offenders are arrested for minor, non-injurious acts like pushing, grabbing or hair-pulling. But the same is true of most men swept up in the net of strict domestic-violence laws passed by many states in the last 10 years. Many women who are arrested for domestic assault say they were striking back. But so do many male defendants. The truth in these situations can be hard to sort out. Unfortunately, many public officials have been swayed by extreme woman-as-victim arguments. Some jurisdictions have tried to reduce female arrests by training the police to see violence "in context." Often, the guidelines instruct officers to decide who is "in control" and who is "in fear" — vague terms likely to be used as code words for "arrest the man." Measures intended to get women off the hook violate not only the constitutional principle of equal protection but true feminist principles. The slogan "There is no excuse for domestic violence" should not end with the exemption "unless you are female." * * * * * * * Cathy Young is the author of "Ceasefire!: Why Women and Men Must Join Forces to Achieve True Equality."

Response:

and if he had defended himself he might have wound up in the slammer. Cops will still just assume the woman is the innocent party. Actually, there are more women being arrested for DV now that the police are under pressure not to dismiss these calls lightly.

Yeah!  It’s about time.  Violence is violence regardless of the sex of the person. And it appears that many in the DV crowd are up in arms over that, and have responded by demanding the the police be "retrained" so as not to arrest women.

I hope that never happens.   I provide a copy of a recent Cathy Young article.

Great article.  It’s a shame that men can’t get the recognition for their suffering that many woman demand as a right. Victoria Lee

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and if he had defended himself he might have wound up in the slammer. Cops will still just assume the woman is the innocent party. Actually, there are more women being arrested for DV now that the police are under pressure not to dismiss these calls lightly. And it appears that many in the DV crowd are up in arms over that, and have responded by demanding the the police be "retrained" so as not to arrest women. I provide a copy of a recent Cathy Young article. The New York Times November 26, 1999 Feminists Play the Victim Game By CATHY YOUNG MIDDLETOWN , N.J. — An increasing number of women are being arrested for domestic assaults, and the response to this news shows just how pervasive sexist attitudes still are in our culture. But this time the sexism is coming from feminists and their allies, who insist that most women arrested must have acted in self-defense. This sentimental insistence on female innocence does no service to women, who should be treated as human beings with a capacity for aggression and held equally accountable for their actions. In many states, women now account for a quarter to a third of all domestic violence arrests, up from less than 10 percent a decade ago. The new statistics reflect a reality documented in research: women are perpetrators as well as victims of family violence. A review of 70 studies of domestic violence in which both men and women were interviewed was published in 1998 by Martin Fiebert, a psychologist at California State University at Long Beach. Usually the violence was reciprocal, the research found, with women not only fighting back but initiating attacks; when only one partner was abusive, it was at least as often the woman as the man. And while differences in strength put women at higher risk of serious injury or death, men are hardly invulnerable. According to an article to be published next year in Psychological Bulletin, analyzing data from dozens of studies, men incur a third of injuries in domestic combat. Shouldn’t the growth in female arrests, then, be seen as representing a fairer, more realistic attitude toward gender and aggression? Not according to feminist and other advocacy groups whose ideology equates battering with male oppression of women. They cry "backlash" and claim that women are being penalized for defending themselves. Assertions that female abusers are really victims can be based on rather tortured logic. A 1991 paper by researchers at the Medical College of Wisconsin classified a woman as "abused" if she said that her partner had been the first to use violence in their relationship, even if she was usually the aggressor later on. Women’s advocates also point out that most female offenders are arrested for minor, non-injurious acts like pushing, grabbing or hair-pulling. But the same is true of most men swept up in the net of strict domestic-violence laws passed by many states in the last 10 years. Many women who are arrested for domestic assault say they were striking back. But so do many male defendants. The truth in these situations can be hard to sort out. Unfortunately, many public officials have been swayed by extreme woman-as-victim arguments. Some jurisdictions have tried to reduce female arrests by training the police to see violence "in context." Often, the guidelines instruct officers to decide who is "in control" and who is "in fear" — vague terms likely to be used as code words for "arrest the man." Measures intended to get women off the hook violate not only the constitutional principle of equal protection but true feminist principles. The slogan "There is no excuse for domestic violence" should not end with the exemption "unless you are female." * * * * * * * Cathy Young is the author of "Ceasefire!: Why Women and Men Must Join Forces to Achieve True Equality."

An excellent book, along with Daphne Patai’s " Heterophobia ". Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "                                          David Gelernter, " 1939 "

Response:

and if he had defended himself he might have wound up in the slammer. Cops will still just assume the woman is the innocent party. Actually, there are more women being arrested for DV now that the police are under pressure not to dismiss these calls lightly. And it appears that many in the DV crowd are up in arms over that, and have responded by demanding the the police be "retrained" so as not to arrest women. decide who is "in control" and who is "in fear" — vague terms likely to be used as code words for "arrest the man."

This is all so true.  I was arrested for DV last summer.  The grounds were so ridiculous that the DA had me released immedialtely and declined to prsecute any charges. Here is what the state trooper told me.  "when we respond to a DV call, we have to make an arrest". My spouse and I both told the troopers that there was no physical violence, and that neither one of us felt threatened by the other.  The troopers response was "you’re about twice the size of your wife arn’t you?,  If someone is going to be hurt here, it is going to be her."

Response:

Good for you Jeff!  I admire your strength.  You’re gonna make it!  :) Daisy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I really felt good last night when I told my ex I was busy and couldn’t talk to her. Guess what she did today? Stopped by. Guess she figured I couldn’t turn her down in person. She popped in this morning and told me she wanted me to make love to her. Like I was meat. Like I wasn’t good enough for anything but sex. I told her no, and that she wouldn’t want me approaching her like that. She hung around for a little while, then left. Then she called back up asking if I was sure I didn’t want to have sex with her. been sucked into the trap again. Not me. It was hard turning her down, but the second time it was a lot easier. Jeff. I see. A bitch gets her ass kicked and it’s abuse. You get your ass kicked and it’s because you are stupid. And SEAL or not lady…..sometimes you gotta take a beaten. In Indiana physically restraining a person is battery and criminal confinement. No Jeri I’m not a troll. I am the product of an abusive relatinship.I got the hell kicked out of me.  Bullsh*t. If you were a Navy SEAL, then you would have had some idea as to defending yourself. I’m sure that you are typical of most men, with remarkable upper-body strength… you couldn’t possibly hold her by the wrists, put her in a closet ’til she calmed down, to protect yourself? I’m not saying that she wasn’t abusive. I don’t believe that you couldn’t prevent her from hitting you. There are too many discrepancies in your story. This is not neccesarily true. For a good many of us men, physical abilities have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not we can defend ourself from women who attack. For many of us, it seems to be hard wired into our brain to just lie down, and hope she calms down. It doesn’t matter what upper body strength he has, if he just can’t bring himself to fight with her physically. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

I really felt good last night when I told my ex I was busy and couldn’t talk to her. Guess what she did today? Stopped by. Guess she figured I couldn’t turn her down in person. She popped in this morning and told me she wanted me to make love to her. Like I was meat. Like I wasn’t good enough for anything but sex. I told her no, and that she wouldn’t want me approaching her like that. She hung around for a little while, then left. Then she called back up asking if I was sure I didn’t want to have sex with her. been sucked into the trap again. Not me. It was hard turning her down, but the second time it was a lot easier. Jeff. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I see. A bitch gets her ass kicked and it’s abuse. You get your ass kicked and it’s because you are stupid. And SEAL or not lady…..sometimes you gotta take a beaten. In Indiana physically restraining a person is battery and criminal confinement. No Jeri I’m not a troll. I am the product of an abusive relatinship.I got the hell kicked out of me.  Bullsh*t. If you were a Navy SEAL, then you would have had some idea as to defending yourself. I’m sure that you are typical of most men, with remarkable upper-body strength… you couldn’t possibly hold her by the wrists, put her in a closet ’til she calmed down, to protect yourself? I’m not saying that she wasn’t abusive. I don’t believe that you couldn’t prevent her from hitting you. There are too many discrepancies in your story. This is not neccesarily true. For a good many of us men, physical abilities have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not we can defend ourself from women who attack. For many of us, it seems to be hard wired into our brain to just lie down, and hope she calms down. It doesn’t matter what upper body strength he has, if he just can’t bring himself to fight with her physically. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

hiya VL,

 It’s a shame that men can’t get the recognition for their suffering that many woman demand as a right.

… eeeee …. "recognition for suffering?"  As in we all must wear the badge of our victimhood proudly? Gosh, I’m spending a lot of energy trying to get *past* that! But, unfortunatly, too true … whether to whine about another’s "controlling" behavior – or getting 10 million dollars for being stupid enough to spill coffee on ones self at McDonald’s – we live in a culture which worships and rewards this victimhood. Best –  BD Victoria Lee

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

hiya VL,

HI!  How ya doin? It’s a shame that men can’t get the recognition for their suffering that many woman demand as a right. … eeeee …. "recognition for suffering?"  As in we all must wear the badge of our victimhood proudly?

Okay, so that wasn’t put very well.  I just think laws should apply to everyone equally. Gosh, I’m spending a lot of energy trying to get *past* that!

It still gives me shivers when someone kindly says, "Oh, what you went through blah, blah, blah."  I am who I am today not in spite of where I have been, but because of it.  We all are.   But, unfortunatly, too true … whether to whine about another’s "controlling" behavior – or getting 10 million dollars for being stupid enough to spill coffee on ones self at McDonald’s – we live in a culture which worships and rewards this victimhood.

There is a fine line between realizing you have been victimized and becoming a victim of being a victim. Victoria Lee

Response:

I drove my car off of a bridge, plunged 50′ into the icy water of a fast moving river. I went through the windshield. State police were dragging the river for me. I won’t try to kill myself again, but I still feel lost. Dead, 5-years later. Jeff.

Response:

 Sad story, but given what he wrote in the other post… I think he didn’t try hard enough. He’s a troll.  Jeri * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

No Jeri I’m not a troll. I am the product of an abusive relatinship.I got the hell kicked out of me. You are a sexist. If a woman was on here saying she got hit or was beaten you wouldn’t say she didn’t try hard enough. Would you? And on the other post? I think scaring the hell out of someone can shock them into sanity. If I was wrong…..I’m sorry. I can say I am sorry. I’m man enough to do that. But I am not a troll. Jeff.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sad story, but given what he wrote in the other post… I think he didn’t try hard enough. He’s a troll. Jeri * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

I am a woman. And, I did not come from a physically abusive relationship. Your choice of phrases were revolting. If you want to offer advice to someone to help them, then tell them to get on with their lives. In a CONSTRUCTIVE way. You probably made that guy feel pretty sh*tty!  Jeri * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

No Jeri I’m not a troll. I am the product of an abusive relatinship.I got the hell kicked out of me.

 Bullsh*t. If you were a Navy SEAL, then you would have had some idea as to defending yourself. I’m sure that you are typical of most men, with remarkable upper-body strength… you couldn’t possibly hold her by the wrists, put her in a closet ’til she calmed down, to protect yourself? I’m not saying that she wasn’t abusive. I don’t believe that you couldn’t prevent her from hitting you. There are too many discrepancies in your story. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

I drove my car off of a bridge, plunged 50′ into the icy water of a fast moving river. I went through the windshield. State police were dragging the river for me. I won’t try to kill myself again, but I still feel lost. Dead, 5-years later. Jeff.

Five years and given what you wrote in another post, you have not even begun to deal with your anger towards women nor with your other issues.   Please consider getting help … you may benefit from medication and long-term therapy.  The way you are going now is no way to live.    If you are or were spiritual, return to your church.   Floridanewbie

Response:

  responding to broken dreams Inc. : I’m sure that you are typical of most men, with remarkable upper-body strength… you couldn’t possibly hold her by the wrists, put her in a closet ’til she calmed down, to protect yourself?

Not very good advice for anyone in an abusive relationship.  By attempting to physically control the abuser you are coming down to their level of "it’s Ok to use force to solve a disagreement". And what happens when the police get involved?  "Well officer, she was hitting me so I stuffed her in the closet and she got all those bumps and bruises kicking me, the door and the walls."  Can you guess who is going to have a hard time explaining their actions to a judge? Remember, what you tell someone who is being abused – it’s not OK, it’s not your fault, get out of the situation (physically leave the building), and get help. It’s up to you to decide to go back.  And it’s up to you to make it clear that abuse is unacceptable behavior.  And it’s up to you to get counseling for yourself and your spouse to prevent future abuse. You have the right to tell your abuser that you will contact the police when you are abused.  And then if it happens again, call the cops. I’m not saying that she wasn’t abusive. I don’t believe that you couldn’t prevent her from hitting you.

No one can ever prevent anyone from hitting them. Period. It doesn’t get any simpler than that.  It is always possible for someone to land that first blow.  Always.  You may be able to block it – but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt your arms or legs. A punch or a slap thrown when least expected can really clean your clock.  Especially if you are in a situation where you can’t defend yourself or get away immediately.  And what about being so shocked and humiliated that they struck you that a rain of blows falls before you react? You think I’m kidding that this can’t happen to men? A good example – argueing in the car.  Wife gets so upset she punches the husband while he is driving.  When he screams at her to not do that again, she starts slapping him on the head and shoulders and doesn’t quit until she gets tired. Real life scenario. And I know of one real life case where the guy committed suicide after being lied to, used, abused, divorced and sued.  One of the places she hit him was in the car.  When asked why he never hit back he said "It never occurred to me to strike back". Abuse doesn’t just happen to helpless women. There are too many discrepancies in your story.

Maybe.  Maybe in this case there are holes you can drive a truck through. But, your assumptions are wrong. Women can and do abuse men.  And men are as powerless as women to prevent it.  And just like women, a man’s claim that abuse is occurring is frequently dismissed or blamed on the victim. No one deserves to be abused. Steven. Before you buy.

Response:

No Jeri I’m not a troll. I am the product of an abusive relatinship.I got the hell kicked out of me.  Bullsh*t. If you were a Navy SEAL, then you would have had some idea as to defending yourself. I’m sure that you are typical of most men, with remarkable upper-body strength… you couldn’t possibly hold her by the wrists, put her in a closet ’til she calmed down, to protect yourself? I’m not saying that she wasn’t abusive. I don’t believe that you couldn’t prevent her from hitting you. There are too many discrepancies in your story.

This is not neccesarily true. For a good many of us men, physical abilities have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not we can defend ourself from women who attack. For many of us, it seems to be hard wired into our brain to just lie down, and hope she calms down. It doesn’t matter what upper body strength he has, if he just can’t bring himself to fight with her physically. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

 and if he had defended himself he might have wound up in the slammer.   Cops will still just assume the woman is the innocent party. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No Jeri I’m not a troll. I am the product of an abusive relatinship.I got the hell kicked out of me.  Bullsh*t. If you were a Navy SEAL, then you would have had some idea as to defending yourself. I’m sure that you are typical of most men, with remarkable upper-body strength… you couldn’t possibly hold her by the wrists, put her in a closet ’til she calmed down, to protect yourself? I’m not saying that she wasn’t abusive. I don’t believe that you couldn’t prevent her from hitting you. There are too many discrepancies in your story. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No Jeri I’m not a troll. I am the product of an abusive relatinship.I got the hell kicked out of me.  Bullsh*t. If you were a Navy SEAL, then you would have had some idea as to defending yourself. I’m sure that you are typical of most men, with remarkable upper-body strength… you couldn’t possibly hold her by the wrists, put her in a closet ’til she calmed down, to protect yourself? I’m not saying that she wasn’t abusive. I don’t believe that you couldn’t prevent her from hitting you. There are too many discrepancies in your story.

Jeri, If he had held her by the wrists to protect himself and she got a bruise…….who do you think would go to jail?I’m not even going to try and imagine what would happen if he had locked her in a closet. I don’t think he’s a troll. I think he was just speaking out of a deep pit of pain. How many of us haven’t said something we thought was the right thing at the time only to think twice about it and wish we hadn’t? I know I have. — Jeri If you always do what you always did, then you’ll always get what you always got.

Response:

I see. A bitch gets her ass kicked and it’s abuse. You get your ass kicked and it’s because you are stupid. And SEAL or not lady…..sometimes you gotta take a beaten. In Indiana physically restraining a person is battery and criminal confinement. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No Jeri I’m not a troll. I am the product of an abusive relatinship.I got the hell kicked out of me.  Bullsh*t. If you were a Navy SEAL, then you would have had some idea as to defending yourself. I’m sure that you are typical of most men, with remarkable upper-body strength… you couldn’t possibly hold her by the wrists, put her in a closet ’til she calmed down, to protect yourself? I’m not saying that she wasn’t abusive. I don’t believe that you couldn’t prevent her from hitting you. There are too many discrepancies in your story. This is not neccesarily true. For a good many of us men, physical abilities have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not we can defend ourself from women who attack. For many of us, it seems to be hard wired into our brain to just lie down, and hope she calms down. It doesn’t matter what upper body strength he has, if he just can’t bring himself to fight with her physically. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Aw come on now Lite, I think the guy was pretty smart not to hit her back or put her in a closet.  He had much inner strength if ya ask me!  Being a Navy Seal doesn’t mean he has to res ult to doing things like that.  Jeff, you have my understanding, I admire you for not resulting to abuse such as your wife demonstrated. Daisy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No Jeri I’m not a troll. I am the product of an abusive relatinship.I got the hell kicked out of me. Bullsh*t. If you were a Navy SEAL, then you would have had some idea as to defending yourself. I’m sure that you are typical of most men, with remarkable upper-body strength… you couldn’t possibly hold her by the wrists, put her in a closet ’til she calmed down, to protect yourself? I’m not saying that she wasn’t abusive. I don’t believe that you couldn’t prevent her from hitting you. There are too many discrepancies in your story. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Filed under: Feminist

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