Stupidly Paranoid Pagans

Question:

: I only post this because I thought "Oh, that’s an easy URL, I can : remember THAT" NOT!!!! oh well, life’s an adventure. : Why are you so terrified of sex? ROTFL!!!!! — Cathbad Dept. of Drama, Dept. of Philosophy: University of Guelph, in Ontario, Canada , | `, _/~ ._/’

Response:

To find out about ADF, set your browser to http://www.adf.org and many of your questions will be answered. — Scott Baker Proud to be a member of the Libertarian Party. Set your browser to http://www.lp.org/lp/ and find out what’s happening! You want to vote Libertarian. Give in to the urge.

Response:

writes: Now, since we’ve really pounded this into the ground, and brought more emphasis on this than she *ever* did, I’m going to back off. My point is made.

That’s very nice but. . . what was that URL again? I’m afraid I’ve lost it in all the comotion. . . many thanks

Response:

Litchfield) writes: Maybe you should brush up on the old reading sklls twitling.

sp^ Before criticizing another, ensure you’re own infallibility. The post in question provided directions to a webpage, gave it fairly clearly (not a hard address) and then goes on half a dozen lines

When did 2 become a half dozen? making squawking noises about how no one should make the unlikely mistake of going to annother webpage with a similar address they might *GASP*!!!! see something about sex (EVIL EVIL EVIL).

The line immediately following the text in question clearly states that the intent was merely for the purpose of guiding the user to the correct address as opposed to any other, and none of it seems to have any real issues with the sex topic aside from it’s difference from the other. Sounds like you have some "issues", dude… Got lots of issues, which ones would you like to start with?

The instigation of bickering on newsgroups. And that’s where it should end. I believe the subject was "What is ADF?" WhiteRaven Coatl WhiteRaven Coatl

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(WRvnCoatl) writes: The post in question provided directions to a webpage, gave it fairly clearly (not a hard address) and then goes on half a dozen lines When did 2 become a half dozen? making squawking noises about how no one should make the unlikely mistake of going to annother webpage with a similar address they might *GASP*!!!! see something about sex (EVIL EVIL EVIL). The line immediately following the text in question clearly states that the intent was merely for the purpose of guiding the user to the correct address as opposed to any other, and none of it seems to have any real issues with the sex topic aside from it’s difference from the other. Sounds like you have some "issues", dude… Got lots of issues, which ones would you like to start with?

Come on folks, are we really THIS petty? One person posts a 2 line letter noting a cool html, makes a simple side note to make sure that we got the address right, and we bitch about it for 3 weeks? This is a sad commentary on us. Aubry Big Brother isn’t watching you – you are watching him — all 181 channels

Response:

In DP #6, Isaac wanted to know why ADF was having so much trouble getting Groves planted. One of the problems that I have experienced is a lack of response from ADF when I ask for guidance. I have repeatedly asked for information on starting a grove, via email and snail mail, with no response. Londubh /|

Well, this might be a stupid question, but what is ADF? |RavenWind | Every man will die, but how many | | If Jesus had been killed by the French with a Gilloutine | | would everyone be wearing one of those instead? | Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Response:

I have never had any problems with a response from the ADF. It sometimes takes them a couple of weeks to respond, but that’s because they are staffed by volunteers and have a large workload at times.

Well, I was a member of ADF for 2 years and I had LOTS of problems with a lack of response. It’s true that the staff is volunteer, but I’ve been in other organizations that were able to reply to inquiries in a timely manner. When people are asking how to go about planting another ADF grove, I would have thought that would get very high priority. If you can fan the flames of enthusiasm when they are embers, you just might start a roaring bonfire — but if you let them go cold, then it’s too late. Justin Fisher – now a happy member of OBOD, getting my monthly mailings from England ON TIME!

Response:

Well, this might be a stupid question, but what is ADF?

Not a stupid question at all!!! And for once, at least it is on a related topic! thanks, cat (replied from alt.religion.all-worlds) Please cc to e-mail for faster responses to any post.

Response:

Hmmm. Just curious what area are you in? I’m in the Albany area, and supringly there is NO grove here. At least that’s what Mr. Elison said. Part of the problem _is_ that they are very slow in responding to much of anything, much less updating the directories and grove listings… Brid

Response:

Well, I can only speak for myself. It seems that everyone except for me has had problems with the ADF. I admit that it does take an unusually long amount of time to receive mailings, but I’ve always received responses to my questions in a very timely manner. Of course, I usually send e-mail to the correct person within the organization instead of depending on snail mail, so maybe that has something to do with it. Liddell http://pages.prodigy.com/CA/Southern/pagan/pagan.html

Response:

If you are pressed for time, you could go to the following URL (assuming that you have web access): http://www.adf.org/ just make sure not to substitute .com for .org– thats a URL you may want to avoid… unless you want to see an adult fantasies page. I only post this because I thought "Oh, that’s an easy URL, I can remember THAT" NOT!!!! oh well, life’s an adventure.

Why are you so terrified of sex? -Michael – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Reniatria Maybe once we give those we despise the respect we crave, Maybe once we are willing to give everything for what we believe Maybe once we can close our eyes to our own prejudices Maybe then we can be accepted. Maybe.

Response:

How did *that* translate to being terrified of sex??? Sounds to me like she just wasn’t interested in checking out an "Adult" page. Sounds like you have some "issues", dude… Erin —– "Hi, I’m Julie Heckman. You may remember me from such newsgroups as alt.horror.werewolves and alt.tv.simpsons." *Web: http://www.users.cts.com/sd/e/erin *Copyright Julie Heckman, 1996. Reproduction or redistribution of the above on the Microsoft Network is strictly prohibited.

Response:

just make sure not to substitute .com for .org– thats a URL you may want to avoid… unless you want to see an adult fantasies page. I only post this because I thought "Oh, that’s an easy URL, I can remember THAT" NOT!!!! oh well, life’s an adventure. Why are you so terrified of sex? How did *that* translate to being terrified of sex??? Sounds to me like she just wasn’t interested in checking out an "Adult" page.

Maybe you should brush up on the old reading sklls twitling. The post in question provided directions to a webpage, gave it fairly clearly (not a hard address) and then goes on half a dozen lines making squawking noises about how no one should make the unlikely mistake of going to annother webpage with a similar address they might *GASP*!!!! see something about sex (EVIL EVIL EVIL). Sounds like you have some "issues", dude…

Got lots of issues, which ones would you like to start with? Erin

-Mcihael – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— "Hi, I’m Julie Heckman. You may remember me from such newsgroups as alt.horror.werewolves and alt.tv.simpsons." *Web: http://www.users.cts.com/sd/e/erin *Copyright Julie Heckman, 1996. Reproduction or redistribution of the above on the Microsoft Network is strictly prohibited.

Response:

The post in question provided directions to a webpage, gave it fairly clearly (not a hard address) and then goes on half a dozen lines making squawking noises about how no one should make the unlikely mistake of going to annother webpage with a similar address they might *GASP*!!!! see something about sex (EVIL EVIL EVIL).

I think you have some major overreaction problem. She made a couple of comments about making sure the address was right, because if she did go to the adf.com page, she would find an "Adult Fantasy" page. Sounds like a good warning to me; not because sex is (as you so delicately put it) "EVIL EVIL EVIL", but because maybe she should watch out in case she was showing it to her kids, to her mother, to her children’s kindergarten teacher, for all I know. I know that it would be *mighty* embarrassing to say to someone "Hey, check out this Web page; this is the Home Page of my religious organization," and have it turn out to be an Adult Fantasy page. Druids, as a general rule, do not consider sex to be evil, nor are we offended by it. However, we do think that discretion should be used, particularly when there might be children involved. Now, since we’ve really pounded this into the ground, and brought more emphasis on this than she *ever* did, I’m going to back off. My point is made. Erin —– "Hi, I’m Julie Heckman. You may remember me from such newsgroups as alt.horror.werewolves and alt.tv.simpsons." *Web: http://www.users.cts.com/sd/e/erin *Copyright Julie Heckman, 1996. Reproduction or redistribution of the above on the Microsoft Network is strictly prohibited.

Response:

I have just sent for infor from ADF by Snail, so I don’t know what the response time will be. But I can’t complain about the phone service: I called 800-DRUIDRY and heard Isaacs Voice Mail message. I was in the middle of leaving him a "Get Well" type message when he picked up the phone! We had a nice long chat about Duids, ADF, OBOD, Witches…the works. He was very helpful. I’m sorry to hear his health is not good and that there is political turmoil within ADF. I’m still interested in learning all I can about ADF, OBOD and Druidry in general. Which books would you recommend? Lion’s Dream

Response:

I’ve been a member of ADF for 6 yrs,helped found a grove,assisted at ADF rituals and also have had very poor response time,something that is very frustrating for a PWA.I was hoping that with ‘em getting alt.rel.druid and the Web site it would get better but so far same-oh-same-oh.The DP is finally out and I received my 6th NFTMG since joining so maybe Issac’s departure is stimulating activity.I’m hoping to see at least a DP#16 or a DF#2 before I pass over….

Response:

: : Well, this might be a stupid question, but what is ADF? : : ADF, Ar nDruioch Fein (arn reoch fane) is a neo-pagan fellowship of : pan-european druidism. Founded by Isaac Bonewitz, ADF promotes the : study of druidism throughout the U.S. and Canada. If you would like : more information email me and I will forward the ADF faq to you. If you are pressed for time, you could go to the following URL (assuming that you have web access): http://www.adf.org/ Marvelous page, imho. Well worth the effort to read. (-: Karel — <li<a href="http://www.teleport.com/~kws" kws </a Kill no trees Keep data digital Do not print

Response:

If you are pressed for time, you could go to the following URL (assuming that you have web access): http://www.adf.org/

just make sure not to substitute .com for .org– thats a URL you may want to avoid… unless you want to see an adult fantasies page. I only post this because I thought "Oh, that’s an easy URL, I can remember THAT" NOT!!!! oh well, life’s an adventure. Reniatria Maybe once we give those we despise the respect we crave, Maybe once we are willing to give everything for what we believe Maybe once we can close our eyes to our own prejudices Maybe then we can be accepted. Maybe.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In DP #6, Isaac wanted to know why ADF was having so much trouble getting Groves planted. Some of the factors he mentioned as possible choke points were (a) indifference in cities with large number of members, (b) lack of recruitment by rural members, (c) the Grove rules are intimidating, (d) would-be Groves have a fear of going public, and (e) Grove organizers are uncertain about how to grow. This article deals with (d), would-be Grove organizers have a fear of going public. Admittedly in certain parts of the US, going public can be dangerous. The Grove Organizers Handbook says that Groves need to be semi-public. That is, they are to be open to the NeoPagan public. Towards that end, a number of places are listed to find other NeoPagans, and also other non-Pagans that might be interested in a Pan-Indo-European religious organization. [snip] Should we be afraid of going public as members of ADF? In most cases, we shouldn’t be afraid. If you fear the government, now or in the future, will use Paganism against you, drop out of ADF immediately and cut off all contact with the Pagan community, the Pagan computer areas and other Pagans except your VERY close friends who have to do the same. If you fear reprisals from local Fundamentalists, again, drop out of the community. You can still receive Pagan pubs usually, but you can’t be active in your local community. If you are tired of Pagan politics and gossip, drop out of the community and local Grove, and just read about ADF and do the rituals privately. If you are trying to be discrete about your family name being associated with the Pagan community, use a pseudo-name in public, and a PO Box. Having some people in the community know your real name isn’t much of a problem if you caution them to keep the two identities separate in public. If you are trying to absolutely prevent your family’s name from being associated with Paganism, drop out of ADF and the public Pagan community just as if you were afraid of local Fundamentalists.

Bravo! *applauds* This article gives something to think about to all those Pagans who insist that they *must* be "in the closet", while at the same time subscribing to several pubs, writing to/for those same pubs, belong to any number of national/regional/local Pagan orgs, attend public rituals and festivals, and give out their address (not a PO Box) to the pubs, the orgs, and anyone they want to correspond with that is a Pagan. How in the closet can anyone be, if they are already doing all this? Lee Ann — Communications Decency Act: What happens when American parents don’t. Looking for information about NA nations in

Response:

Well, this might be a stupid question, but what is ADF?

ADF, Ar nDruioch Fein (arn reoch fane) is a neo-pagan fellowship of pan-european druidism. Founded by Isaac Bonewitz, ADF promotes the study of druidism throughout the U.S. and Canada. If you would like more information email me and I will forward the ADF faq to you. Londubh /|

Response:

GROVE ORGANIZING – THE PARANOIA FACTOR Peter Gold In DP #6, Isaac wanted to know why ADF was having so much trouble getting Groves planted. Some of the factors he mentioned as possible choke points were (a) indifference in cities with large number of members, (b) lack of recruitment by rural members, (c) the Grove rules are intimidating, (d) would-be Groves have a fear of going public, and (e) Grove organizers are uncertain about how to grow. This article deals with (d), would-be Grove organizers have a fear of going public. Admittedly in certain parts of the US, going public can be dangerous. The Grove Organizers Handbook says that Groves need to be semi-public. That is, they are to be open to the NeoPagan public. Towards that end, a number of places are listed to find other NeoPagans, and also other non-Pagans that might be interested in a Pan-Indo-European religious organization. For reaching non-NeoPagans, a number of ways are suggested. If you live in a college area, try college bulletin boards. Specifically, ones in departments like anthropology, comparative religious studies, ecology and Indo-European (or specific subset) studies. Also local science-fiction, Mensa, feminist, and ecology action groups are fertile grounds to find members. Reaching out to non-NeoPagans is both tougher, and riskier. You are likely to find people who are more knowledgeable about Indo-European studies, but you are also likely to find groups or people who don’t like NeoPaganism. If you are worried about being found by people hostile to NeoPaganism, this is not the route to go. If you want to, for security reasons, just reach out to the existing NeoPagan community there are a couple of ways of doing this. The easiest is to post signs at local occult and metaphysical shops. The Grove Organizers Handbook has some sample ads in the back that are appropriate. Put your local Grove name and Post Office box in the space provided. To meet large numbers of people at once, try attending a local festival or similar event. You can combine this with one of your bi-monthly meetings, and kill two birds with one stone. As an example, up in Boston, Earth-Spirit Community used to hold a coffee house once a month. Attend the coffee house and socialize. Bring literature along and place it on the networking table. This is still real cheap to do. The coffee house was $5 per head, plus parking and munchies. Two more steps up the price ladder involve using the local Pagan publication, if one is available. You can buy an ad, either an all words networking ad, or usually more expensive display ad. You might get a lot of people who only write for info, or only attend a single ritual, but that’s OK. Word of mouth is very powerful, and very effective. To find more specific people, look in the networking section, and respond to the ads that are already there. Still paranoid about harassment? Lets look at who might be interested in the NeoPagan community from a negative viewpoint. First, a definition. The phrase is capability and intentions. It is a military / intelligence term used in threat analysis. It should be intuitive what it means and how it is used, but just in case, here is an example. The former Soviet Union has the capability to destroy the United States. At the moment, they don’t have the intention to do so by means of mass destruction. The US government has a lot of capability to monitor the NeoPagan community. The CIA, NSA, FBI and the rest of the alphabet soup has lots of resources, and could easily make up a list of many NeoPagans. What they don’t have is the intentions. Oh, they probably subscribe to most NeoPagan publications, and have files on the leaders such as Isaac. But face it, we as a community are not a threat as far as they are concerned as an organization. If the government wanted to get real names of Pagans they a number of ways of doing it, depending if they want to be covert or semi-public. Step one, they get a list of PO Boxes and phone numbers from Pagan pubs and compile a list based on out-going mail from Pagan groups. They run the numbers backwards to get street addresses and names. They run the PO Boxes through the Post Office they are located in to get the legal name. They would also get a list of names and Internet Providers from Usenet groups. With the account name, they can get the billing name and information. They can get the necessary classified search warrants through the special court in Washington DC (see the "Puzzle Palace" for more details on NSA/CIA legal capabilities). They can also do wire taps and traces. They could also infiltrate groups to get names and motor vehicle license plate data. Again, run the information backwards to get legal names. In extreme cases, they could follow people home. Why, at the moment, they would want to goto all this trouble is beyond me. If we had a major political change similar to the switch between 1930’s and the early ’50’s, maybe Congress or the government in general might take a serious interest in us. If so, to get the names of people who have dropped out is a little tougher. I don’t know how long the Post Office keeps box holder info so that would stymie them. Street addresses of rentals would also be tough. Non-rentals would of course be easy. Phone numbers I’m not sure of either. Now, with reverse directories publicly available on CD-ROM, they can afford to keep such information for a long time. If a Pagan ever wrote a published Pagan book under a pseudo-name, the government could ask the publisher for the legal name. Old membership lists of Pagan organizations is a possible source of old names, but as with above, pseudo-names can be traced only so far to dead addresses. What does it take to hide from the current government? Don’t publish anything where you get paid or get free copies. Don’t join any organization or subscribe to any Pagan pubs. Don’t travel to Pagan event by car. Don’t give out your phone number to ANYBODY you don’t trust with your secret and also trust them not to call you from their home or office, or via calling card. Also, tell them about your concerns. Don’t call any possibly public Pagan or if they might associate with public Pagans, ie any member of ADF. Buy all of your books in cash at non-Pagan bookstores, and don’t go there by car. To hide from future governments, you can go to events by car but don’t subscribe or join any organization that might send you mail. You don’t know how long the Post Office keeps boxholder info, nor how long your legal name OR pseudo-names will be kept around. Don’t publish any books or in any Pagan pubs. Don’t give out your phone number to anybody, they might hold onto it until they get pressured to give out more names. The area that people seem to be concerned about is the Fundamentalists Christian community on one hand, and the Pagan community, with its politics, on the other. The Fundamentalists community doesn’t like us. Isaac detailed part of it in DP #6. In areas like the Bible Belt, being very out in the open, could be dangerous, even fatal. I don’t expect a preacher to lead his flock in an open assault on an ADF Grove, but harassing and anonymous violence is possible, such as slashed tires or worse. The selective use of zoning laws, pressuring of landlords to revoke tenancy-at-will have all been used to harass Pagans. If you want to hide from the Christian Fundamentalists community, what does it take? Well, this is based on a number of assumptions. The first one, is that the Fundamentalists leaders know where to buy books and magazines about NeoPaganism. That second, they are willing to subscribe and join organizations in order to find people who are members. Thirdly, they are not going to attend ritual or actively participate in rituals, because that would be a sin for them, but they will attend events and stand on the side lines. Fourth, they have some access to Dept. Motor Vehicle records through some police officers and agencies. Fourth, that if they are bank clerks or mailcarriers, they do not have the time to notice checks or mail to or from Pagan organizations, but in some localities they can check specific boxes for the real names of the holders. If they get your phone number, they can easily trace it backwards. What does this translate into? Do not subscribe to any organization that gives out it mailing list to its members, or see to it that your name is not on that list, ie. ADF’s confidential (Mother Grove only) level. Don’t write letters or articles for Pagan pubs without using a pseudonym, and when you do, don’t put your PO Box or phone number in the article. Don’t attend Pagan festivals or public rituals with your car, they can trace the plate. Don’t give out your phone number to ANYBODY you don’t trust with your secret. Also, tell them about your concerns. Don’t give out your real name to anybody you don’t trust. In short, don’t be active in the COMMUNITY. You’d have to remain a strict solitary, and not even practice your religion if you have small children that might talk to the wrong neighbor. Some people also seem to fear the NeoPagan community. They are afraid of Pagan Politics, or being harassed by other members of the community. Over the past couple of years, I’ve heard some real bullshit being said about people. But, when I go to the attributed source, they know nothing about it. Case in point, my wife and either her ex-husband or me, was supposedly banned from certain Pagan events. We showed up, no problem. I got a chance to talk to their head of security, and he had no idea how the rumor got started, or what is was referring to. Non-problem, especially as we both got flyers, without interruption, to attend their events. If you don’t want to be harassed by other Pagans, don’t go to public events, just your own PRIVATE circle of friends. Don’t

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