Activism Change

something has changed…

Question:

<shiver> you walked over my soul somehow JoJo.. but not born of yesterdays.. but of lost dreams and dreamed tomorrows..  things that come to me in sleep even.. and at the same time.. this echoing loneliness that never ends.. like eternity and beyond for me.. tis no one who can or tries to connect to who is my soul inside.. it’s like a lost world .. I’m living a vortex of something I’m supposed to do.. but I’m still missing my other to keep me strong and vibrant.. but I’m not settling either.. I want the whole soul or nothing else.. and it isn’t money that drives me.. tisn’t even success.. it’s stronger than that inside of me.. does this any make sense? And your 38.. you have alot to give.. and live.. but you have to find *real* and solid for yourself till you can find the *other* that makes it all balanced.. donno.. it’s what I seek Pamela <jojobe…@my-deja.com> wrote in message

news:93j6va$2ju$1@nnrp1.deja.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <lH376.1937$3d7.49…@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, >   "Lone Wolf" <alw…@home.net> wrote: > > Very impressively written.  It was startling because everything you > > wrote is exactly how I feel.  My door shut 16 years ago. At 38, it > > isn’t looking like it will open soon.  But I will try, and so should > > you.  I believe there is always time.  It’s so very hard to come > > down from the hills and find comfort and security in the pack. > > Hard indeed after all these years. > It is interesting to me that you must have been around 22 > when it happened to you, too. > Perhaps it is around that age when we solidify the way we relate > to people.  I know that before then, I was open, freely > giving, pretty much fearless.  It came naturally, it was > a game.  But all that changed.  Not overnight, but so gradually > I wasn’t aware of all the chances I was passing by.  I guess > I always thought there would be another opportunity, when I > was ready, when I was over it. > But then I started to feel a dark pleasure in my alienation. > That’s the side we don’t talk about.  At some point, I started to > take an almost malicious delight in my solitariness, as if > everyone else in the world was so pathetic and small to need > someone.  Where does that come from?  Is it just I do not want to > want what I cannot have?  Or is there something more? > And how do we come down from the mountain and into the > pack?  I almost can’t bear having people around me; I avoid > parties because of the press of bodies, of people saying stupid > things and connecting in ways that I can’t even approach.  Or > worse, would they ignore me because I can’t make the right talk…I > don’t even know if I would be worthwhile company, even if I > were to force myself to be among them.  And anyway, I have, > a couple of times, and come home early and spent the rest of the > evening burning with embarrassment, feeling I looked and sounded > like an idiot. > I hope you are right.  I hope there is time.  I hope that > this change I have felt lately is a sign that I can do something, > somehow, about this.  If I can figure out what. > I just don’t know where I’m supposed to start.  Or even if I > am not just too weird for this world. > jojo > Sent via Deja.com > http://www.deja.com/

Response:

In article <3a5d30f…@spamkiller.newsfeeds.com>,   "Unicorn" <unicorn_4_ma…@yahoo.com> wrote: > <shiver> you walked over my soul somehow JoJo.. > but not born of yesterdays.. but of lost dreams and dreamed > tomorrows..  things that come to me in sleep even.. > and at the same time.. this echoing loneliness that never ends.. like > eternity and beyond for me.. tis no one who can or tries to connect to > who is my soul inside.. it’s like a lost world ..

yes, exactly.  you speak for me, unicorn. who would want to know, who would try to connect with me?  I am strange and incomprehensible even to myself. yet I feel I have a richness in my head and in my dreams that I think should be welcome to someone, somehow.  but I cannot settle for someone who wouldn’t understand and cherish those bits of me that are the best of me.  I am a strange girl, but I want someone who would love that strangeness, too. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

In article <3a5d2ea…@spamkiller.newsfeeds.com>,   "Unicorn" <unicorn_4_ma…@yahoo.com> wrote: > I got a Bunji.. > Hey yo.. and I got JoJo Beans.. hanging on lady?

I’m hangin’ in, thanks for the bungie. today was better than yesterday.  how much of this angst is pure raging hormones?  aren’t we funny, we monkeys.  thank you all for your messages and advice you are giving me… jojo Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

On Wed, 10 Jan 2001 00:46:57 GMT, jojobe…@my-deja.com wrote:

Mmm, hi.  I think there’s something positive in what you say, because a life of utter loneliness is so tragic, we are basically sociable creatures who depend upon and are enriched by our relationships with others.  So, the fact that you’re feeling pulled outside of your self, that’s just being human and who says they men you have obsessions for are unattainable, what makes them so?  Even if they are, you seem to be able to at least imagine something happening between you and a man, which I take it is something new, a noticing that there is at least a door out of the prison your resolution has put around you.  That’s a step forward, isn’t it.  Things will have changed since 1988 – no-one stays exactly the same from one day to the next, let alone one decade to the next >How strange that just imagining myself strong and inviolate in order >to get through some pain should lead to 13 years of loneliness >so deep I cannot speak of it to anyone.  It is total.  It bleeds >into my friendships because I cannot bear, for pride, to have them >pity me.

But, if they are your friends, then it won’t be pity.  Loneliness is wierd – it can only be solved by others yet we seem to be socialised into feeling guilt about being lonely, and the smug with their comfortable normal conformist "lives", they reinforce this, making it hard to actually admit feeling alone – cutting through that bogus bullshit and calling on others to meet our needs is imperative. >But lately, I am growing tired of my resolve.

I, for one, am glad to hear this – resolving to stay seperate is like resolving not to open one’s eyes. >Logic should stop me, >but somehow lately I feel its hold growing weak in the face of >this tide of longing for someone to be with, to know me.

Excellent.  Be willing to stand in all that longing, let it wash about you and motivate you to do something about not being known. >My inability to reach out, I think, is genetically determined.

But you just have, my friend – you’ve called out to and touched all of us here who have read you.  Nothing genetically determined at all – that’s just a prison you’re building around yourself. >And yet, this is untenable, this grief and useless fantasy, this >drifting from one unreal yet powerful attachment to another.  Will >this be the rest of my life?  One man defining the rest of my >life?  As a feminist I should be appalled, but it’s a terrible >Catch-22, because to need someone is also a conflict against >the independence I hold so dear.

There is no conflict between being a feminist and being in a relationship with a man – but nothing says that being in a relationship with a man means you’re defined by that man. Independence can only go so far – but again, there’s no conflict between retaining an autonomy as a person and relating to some other autonomous person, as a matter of mutual choice. >Some song says: "Learn to pretend there’s more than love that >matters."  I don’t need to pretend.  It’s everything else in my >life that matters so deeply, usually.  I have so much:  friends >and music and work.  A half a dozen other focuses. So why this pain, >so strong right now, as if the buffer has been stacking for 13 years >and is letting loose at long last?  I have lived so long believing >that going on with other things, living a good life and ignoring >this one lack, was the honorable route.

"Honour" – hmmm, there’s a curious choice of words – what would be dishonourable about admitting that the lack is an important one? > But now I doubt, and >whoever repaid me with respect for it, anyway?  It’s laughable. >So sad, she. >  But when I was dealing with the worst of my pain >and anger, those 13 years ago, I always thought:  the lone wolf, >why can’t I be the lone wolf?  And somehow, between then and now, >I became it.  I wasn’t even aware it was happening.  But here I am >trapped in a wolf’s body. What a sad joke.

"They" do say to be real careful about what you wish for.  Have you resolved that pain and anger, are you ready to at least put that behind you? >So I think maybe I was wrong.  But now, it’s just too late.

Not necessarily – you are only 35 (my god – I’ve just done the math – you were 22 when you decided to cut yourself off. Way way too young to have a clear understanding as to how life works. Sounds to me that you have actually made progress just by posting your despair here – next thing is to be willing to do something about it. barry I speak the truth, not my fill of it, but as much as I dare speak; and I dare to do so a little more as I grow old. (Michel de Montaigne)

Response:

On Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:07:28 GMT, jojobe…@my-deja.com wrote: >who would want to know, who would try to connect >with me?  I am strange and incomprehensible even to myself. >yet I feel I have a richness in my head and in my dreams that >I think should be welcome to someone, somehow.  but I cannot >settle for someone who wouldn’t understand and cherish those >bits of me that are the best of me.  I am a strange girl, >but I want someone who would love that strangeness, too.

Now I know this isn’t a pick up joint, but this makes you sound fascinating [shrugs] maybe I have strange tastes.  If you ever make it to NZ, I’d take you for a meal.  The strangeness and incomprehensibility might be because your inner you doesn’t seem to have been out in the open for a while, to bounce off others. barry I speak the truth, not my fill of it, but as much as I dare speak; and I dare to do so a little more as I grow old. (Michel de Montaigne)

Response:

On Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:33:26 GMT, jojobe…@my-deja.com wrote: >today was better than yesterday.  how much of this >angst is pure raging hormones?  aren’t we funny, >we monkeys.  thank you all for your messages and >advice you are giving me…

jojo – this sounds good, like there is scope for change after all, you’re not locked in the same place. barry I speak the truth, not my fill of it, but as much as I dare speak; and I dare to do so a little more as I grow old. (Michel de Montaigne)

Response:

JoJo.. I would, and I think many other’s can see.. you seem to be rather beautiful inside. I hope you stick around and keep posting.. kay You know.. sometimes we all get really really melancholy inside.. without the other in our lives, but you can’t settle, it’s even lonelier there.. maybe God put that feeling there, it’s a feeling we have to instead of fight, let go to it, empty out the empty unto others show our scars, share our pain, and let him fill us up somehow again.. he wants us to connect, he wants us to be open and trusting of each other.. maybe that’s a key We are but vassals And JoJo, I’m most strange.. betcha you would have never guessed this, huh <grin> Wanna be weird and strange with me and other’s in loneliness? Come on.. let’s go for it! Pamela pss.. where are you from JoJo? <jojobe…@my-deja.com> wrote in message

news:93jpju$gk6$1@nnrp1.deja.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <3a5d30f…@spamkiller.newsfeeds.com>, >   "Unicorn" <unicorn_4_ma…@yahoo.com> wrote: > > <shiver> you walked over my soul somehow JoJo.. > > but not born of yesterdays.. but of lost dreams and dreamed > > tomorrows..  things that come to me in sleep even.. > > and at the same time.. this echoing loneliness that never ends.. like > > eternity and beyond for me.. tis no one who can or tries to connect to > > who is my soul inside.. it’s like a lost world .. > yes, exactly.  you speak for me, unicorn. > who would want to know, who would try to connect > with me?  I am strange and incomprehensible even to myself. > yet I feel I have a richness in my head and in my dreams that > I think should be welcome to someone, somehow.  but I cannot > settle for someone who wouldn’t understand and cherish those > bits of me that are the best of me.  I am a strange girl, > but I want someone who would love that strangeness, too. > Sent via Deja.com > http://www.deja.com/

Response:

Hey Barry.. I hope you stick around.. even if you get less lonely.. you pack power in your thoughts and words ya know.. even helped me some.. thanks Pamela "Barry" <bcal…@actrix.co.nz> wrote in message

news:3a5c513c.12531844@news.actrix.co.nz… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Wed, 10 Jan 2001 00:46:57 GMT, jojobe…@my-deja.com wrote: > Mmm, hi.  I think there’s something positive in what you say, because > a life of utter loneliness is so tragic, we are basically sociable > creatures who depend upon and are enriched by our relationships with > others.  So, the fact that you’re feeling pulled outside of your self, > that’s just being human and who says they men you have obsessions for > are unattainable, what makes them so?  Even if they are, you seem to > be able to at least imagine something happening between you and a man, > which I take it is something new, a noticing that there is at least a > door out of the prison your resolution has put around you.  That’s a > step forward, isn’t it.  Things will have changed since 1988 – no-one > stays exactly the same from one day to the next, let alone one decade > to the next > >How strange that just imagining myself strong and inviolate in order > >to get through some pain should lead to 13 years of loneliness > >so deep I cannot speak of it to anyone.  It is total.  It bleeds > >into my friendships because I cannot bear, for pride, to have them > >pity me. > But, if they are your friends, then it won’t be pity.  Loneliness is > wierd – it can only be solved by others yet we seem to be socialised > into feeling guilt about being lonely, and the smug with their > comfortable normal conformist "lives", they reinforce this, making it > hard to actually admit feeling alone – cutting through that bogus > bullshit and calling on others to meet our needs is imperative. > >But lately, I am growing tired of my resolve. > I, for one, am glad to hear this – resolving to stay seperate is like > resolving not to open one’s eyes. > >Logic should stop me, > >but somehow lately I feel its hold growing weak in the face of > >this tide of longing for someone to be with, to know me. > Excellent.  Be willing to stand in all that longing, let it wash about > you and motivate you to do something about not being known. > >My inability to reach out, I think, is genetically determined. > But you just have, my friend – you’ve called out to and touched all of > us here who have read you.  Nothing genetically determined at all – > that’s just a prison you’re building around yourself. > >And yet, this is untenable, this grief and useless fantasy, this > >drifting from one unreal yet powerful attachment to another.  Will > >this be the rest of my life?  One man defining the rest of my > >life?  As a feminist I should be appalled, but it’s a terrible > >Catch-22, because to need someone is also a conflict against > >the independence I hold so dear. > There is no conflict between being a feminist and being in a > relationship with a man – but nothing says that being in a > relationship with a man means you’re defined by that man. > Independence can only go so far – but again, there’s no conflict > between retaining an autonomy as a person and relating to some other > autonomous person, as a matter of mutual choice. > >Some song says: "Learn to pretend there’s more than love that > >matters."  I don’t need to pretend.  It’s everything else in my > >life that matters so deeply, usually.  I have so much:  friends > >and music and work.  A half a dozen other focuses. So why this pain, > >so strong right now, as if the buffer has been stacking for 13 years > >and is letting loose at long last?  I have lived so long believing > >that going on with other things, living a good life and ignoring > >this one lack, was the honorable route. > "Honour" – hmmm, there’s a curious choice of words – what would be > dishonourable about admitting that the lack is an important one? > > But now I doubt, and > >whoever repaid me with respect for it, anyway?  It’s laughable. > >So sad, she. > >  But when I was dealing with the worst of my pain > >and anger, those 13 years ago, I always thought:  the lone wolf, > >why can’t I be the lone wolf?  And somehow, between then and now, > >I became it.  I wasn’t even aware it was happening.  But here I am > >trapped in a wolf’s body. What a sad joke. > "They" do say to be real careful about what you wish for.  Have you > resolved that pain and anger, are you ready to at least put that > behind you? > >So I think maybe I was wrong.  But now, it’s just too late. > Not necessarily – you are only 35 (my god – I’ve just done the math – > you were 22 when you decided to cut yourself off. Way way too young to > have a clear understanding as to how life works. > Sounds to me that you have actually made progress just by posting your > despair here – next thing is to be willing to do something about it. > barry > I speak the truth, not my fill of it, but > as much as I dare speak; and I dare to do > so a little more as I grow old. > (Michel de Montaigne)

Response:

Oh goodness JoJo.. Thanks for posting and I use raging hormonal excuses for everything.. great excuse and it works too! Do you have Chocolate laying around? See, I know the American Dental Institution has finally come out with information to show Chocolate decreases cavities by creation of a unique enzyme in our mouths that actually fights them.. however.. I’m waiting for the research that shows um.. it’s a requirement of a person’s hormonal balance <grin> and it is the true medicine of choice to fight of depression.. it just has to release or insight some kind of activity inside our brain for those good feelings.. Um.. and when we’re as stressed as stress can be around here and people are thinking about taking each other down in a verbal battle of sorts.. I have found that sitting round a table with a bag of Hershey kisses and sharing them.. makes everyone happy again.. even if it’s for breakfast.. <grin> Try it! JoJo, the bunji’s bilateral.. and we can have a bit of fun with it too.. kay? And.. I like the positive.. we dreamers gotta stick together.. huh? You touched alot inside of me by sharing your spirit, I should be thanking you Pamela <jojobe…@my-deja.com> wrote in message

news:93jr4m$iqb$1@nnrp1.deja.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <3a5d2ea…@spamkiller.newsfeeds.com>, >   "Unicorn" <unicorn_4_ma…@yahoo.com> wrote: > > I got a Bunji.. > > Hey yo.. and I got JoJo Beans.. hanging on lady? > I’m hangin’ in, thanks for the bungie. > today was better than yesterday.  how much of this > angst is pure raging hormones?  aren’t we funny, > we monkeys.  thank you all for your messages and > advice you are giving me… > jojo > Sent via Deja.com > http://www.deja.com/

Response:

When I was 22 I was as you, open and warm, I gave freely, I took little.  My joy was in sharing joy.  I tried to share the love in my heart which had been repressed all of my earlier youth.  I was like a flower blooming in the spring after being burried for so long in the cold ground.  But for all I gave, for all the love in my heart, for all the joy I felt at just being alive, it turned out to be for nothing.  Rejection is all I ever got. Nobody I loved ever loved me in return.  It was not for lack of physical attraction because at 22 I was a rather handsome young man.  But nobody wanted what I had to give and I will never understand either I believe. Perhaps I was too intense, so much so as to appear phoney or insincere.  I just don’t know but it was as if I was fighting against a path that had been assigned to me.  The more I struggled against it the weaker I became and less able to fight it any longer. I understand the dark pleasure of alienation, or as I have come to know it as the romance of solitude.  I think my romance with solitude began as a rebellion against the society that rejected me and would never let me in behind its doors.  If I was born an outcast then I would live as an outcast having been given nothing and taking what I need to survive.  If I could not know love then I would not need love, I reasoned at the time.  I built for myself a golden prsion.  Within it’s walls I was safe from the pain others felt, the pain of loss.  But at some point I lost the key to my prison.  Now what had once brought me comfort and sometimes even pleasure now holds me its prisoner.  Sometimes I feel the urge to resist yet every time I lose and my prison walls close in on me ever closer. How to come down from the mountains you ask?  On this I have no answeres yet.  I have yet to find the path that leads down into the valley. Nonetheless, I am a firm believer in hope.  One of my favorite authors, Stephen King, wrote of hope in "Rita Haywaorth and the Shawshank Redemption."  He wrote "Hope is a good thing, perhaps the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."  I hope he’s right.  I can relate to Andy Dufresne, imprisoned for a crime he did not commit.  And like Andy I think it is important to never give up hope and to take strength in believeing that what is now does not have to always be. There is time JoJo.  You are 35 and still have more than half of a life ahead of you.  You’ve felt the change inside of you.  So have I and everyone else on this group.  This is why we are here.  I relate to you, I feel I understand you.  Nobody who writes and expresses themselves as eloquently as you can be a bad person.  As for myself, you’ve touched me a little inside. You’ve shown me there are others such as myself in this world.  This alone has helped to ease my loneliness and I hope yours’ as well.  You aren’t too weird for this world.  It’s hard to be different than everyone else.  The world has an awful way of beating down that which stands above everything else. You’re making a good first step.  Best to start out where you are welcome. You’re amongst friends here and nobody will reject you.  I hope you stay for a while.  You have a lot to give. Wolf

Response:

This newsgroup is becoming the duct tape for my soul. Wolf "Unicorn" <unicorn_4_ma…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:3a5d2f03_3@spamkiller.newsfeeds.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ever hear of a "Shim" Wolf? > It’s a thing us common folk use to keep things kinda sorta together.. > like duck tape.. <grin> > Pamela > "Lone Wolf" <alw…@home.net> wrote in message > news:lH376.1937$3d7.49546@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net… > > Very impressively written.  It was startling because everything you > wrote is > > exactly how I feel.  My door shut 16 years ago. At 38, it isn’t > looking like > > it will open soon.  But I will try, and so should you.  I believe > there is > > always time.  It’s so very hard to come down from the hills and find > comfort > > and security in the pack.  Hard indeed after all these years. > > Wolf

Response:

"Unicorn" <unicorn_4_ma…@yahoo.com> wrote in <3a5dc78…@spamkiller.newsfeeds.com>: >Hey Barry.. >I hope you stick around.. even if you get less lonely.. you pack power >in your thoughts and words ya know.. even helped me some.. thanks

Hey, thanks Pamela – I’m glad that there was something there for you too.   I like it here, there are some cool people, making it one of the best ng’s I’ve ever been to.  I think there is a link between loneliness and creativeness and willingness to express – here people are willing to share what’s inside and that’s what makes it great, makes it a privilege to be here – like I said to ash the other day.  We should all pat ourselves on the back for being the cool people of the world, maybe! barry

Response:

"Lone Wolf" <alw…@home.net> wrote in <j9m76.5935$N37.241…@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>: Good post, Mr Wolf.  Its funny – my recollections of being 22 are completely the opposite from yours and jojo’s – it was that age that I had finally made real friends, had opened up to the world – being away from home at university had a lot to do with that.  It was later, when I joined the work force that things became harder – people were more focussed on work, money, getting ahead and that environment where making friends was the norm changed to where it became fraught.  I particularly noticed this with females – suddenly just trying to make friends with them became interpreted as attempts to date, and since I’ve never been seen as dating material, I’d hit brick walls. >I understand the dark pleasure of alienation, or as I have come to know >it as the romance of solitude.  I think my romance with solitude began >as a rebellion against the society that rejected me and would never let >me in behind its doors.  If I was born an outcast then I would live as >an outcast having been given nothing and taking what I need to survive.

I know this feeling, rather well. >How to come down from the mountains you ask?  On this I have no answeres >yet.  I have yet to find the path that leads down into the valley.

I found my path – can’t say I’ve taken every step along it, but yes I have managed to re-open myself to a much greater extent than before.  It won’t work for everyone and carries a risk of death, quite literally.  I only read Nietszhe after I found my way out, but he formalises things much better than I did – for me it was accidental.  His view is that if you’re alone and feeling lonely, then that’s a legitimate feeling, let it take its course, don’t take pills for it, don’t make up rationalisations that the world isn’t good enough for you – just be lonely, let that experience wash around you.  Bringing in another thinker (Kristeva), however, its critical not to get stuck, you need to not cling to that loneliness as a kind of security blanket – it sounds to me that jojo has to some extent, out of fear of being hurt. My personal experience is that I wallowed for a bit in loneliness, got to be feeling really really sorry for myself and if I could have found a painless way to do away with myself, probably would not be here to tell the tale today.  But luckily I couldn’t and bottomed out, have actually gone out into the world and made a lot of contacts in the last 18 months, started serious attempts at writing as a form of communication.  The following is something I wrote at the time of my emergence, which is still true today: "myshkin wonders about suicide, what with the fuss about it in Craccum. [This is a student newspaper in which this letter was published.] He does hope that when he’s old and wrinkly and really past any enjoyment of life, the State and those around him don’t stand in the way of a peaceful exit, can give him a helping hand if needed.  He thinks that one of the most important rights we can have is to determine for ourselves when we’ve had it and not suffer the indignity of the physical breakdown of our bodies. Before then, he just doesn’t know.  He thinks it is an awful long time till he is old and wrinkly, wonders what to do with that time.  myshkin has had times when all has been black, seemingly without end, when he didn’t know how he’d ever climb out of the pit.  He’s thought that if only there was some painless and non-messy way to do away with himself, then he’d do it.   The church says it is against God’s will, but where’s God?  People say it is a selfish act, but where are these people when someone’s feeling down?   Probably the first to castigate someone as a loser, to turn away from another’s need. myshkin lives, though.  He has learnt to value himself, to see his own strength and quality and to see the same in others.  He has learnt to play the game, to face the world with a smile and a joke even when inside he cries.  He has been fortunate: there has always been a touch of beauty, of laughter, of kindness even from complete strangers, maybe even you, that has drawn him to dry off the tears, to live another day, to keep faith.   myshkin thanks all who have touched him in this way." barry

Response:

Aye.. it is much a part of my own.. for I would not have survived many of my own hidden turmoil’s had it not been for allot of the glorious souls on ASL.. I hope you stick around.. kay.. your words are very honest to my ears.. and you are patient when I do not understand some things and I get a little goofy in my solitude .. I can admit it.. giggle Pamela "Lone Wolf" <alw…@home.net> wrote in message

news:vhm76.5989$N37.243228@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This newsgroup is becoming the duct tape for my soul. > Wolf > "Unicorn" <unicorn_4_ma…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:3a5d2f03_3@spamkiller.newsfeeds.com… > > Ever hear of a "Shim" Wolf? > > It’s a thing us common folk use to keep things kinda sorta together.. > > like duck tape.. <grin> > > Pamela > > "Lone Wolf" <alw…@home.net> wrote in message > > news:lH376.1937$3d7.49546@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net… > > > Very impressively written.  It was startling because everything you > > wrote is > > > exactly how I feel.  My door shut 16 years ago. At 38, it isn’t > > looking like > > > it will open soon.  But I will try, and so should you.  I believe > > there is > > > always time.  It’s so very hard to come down from the hills and find > > comfort > > > and security in the pack.  Hard indeed after all these years. > > > Wolf

Response:

In article <3a5c513c.12531…@news.actrix.co.nz>,   bcal…@actrix.co.nz wrote: > But, if they are your friends, then it won’t be pity.  Loneliness is > wierd – it can only be solved by others yet we seem to be socialised > into feeling guilt about being lonely, and the smug with their > comfortable normal conformist "lives", they reinforce this, making it > hard to actually admit feeling alone – cutting through that bogus > bullshit and calling on others to meet our needs is imperative.

that is very hard.  it’s not guilt I feel about being lonely, it’s much more like shame.   I was always taught to keep a stiff upper lip in my family and in feeling lonely I am failing that.  I remember my father telling me once when I was little:  "don’t cry, that won’t accomplish anything."  I should be strong enough to overcome what appears to be like self-pity.  I realize this is totally irrational, but this is what I feel in my gut, this shame. sometimes emotional reasoning is just that loopy.  I don’t think I’m alone in feeling this way? and I feel shame because they must know:  there must be something wrong with me that I’m not with someone; they must think I am strange, which of course I am, but you mentioned in a different post, barry, strangeness can be attractive.  so what is wrong with her, they would think.  I think I’m just too afraid.  so:  more shame for being so cowardly.  it’s an ugly feeling. <snip> > Excellent.  Be willing to stand in all that longing, let it > wash about you and motivate you to do something about not > being known.

I think you are right about this.  It’s like a weird birthing pang. > >My inability to reach out, I think, is genetically determined. > But you just have, my friend – you’ve called out to and touched all of > us here who have read you.  Nothing genetically determined at all – > that’s just a prison you’re building around yourself.

I wanted to reach out to you folks because I read your posts and I felt like there is such compassion, here. > >And yet, this is untenable, this grief and useless fantasy, this > >drifting from one unreal yet powerful attachment to another.  Will > >this be the rest of my life?  One man defining the rest of my > >life?  As a feminist I should be appalled, but it’s a terrible > >Catch-22, because to need someone is also a conflict against > >the independence I hold so dear. > There is no conflict between being a feminist and being in a > relationship with a man – but nothing says that being in a > relationship with a man means you’re defined by that man.

I think the conflict, tho, is in the word "need."   but I am starting to think that the pitfall of my youth (I saw so many friends fall into it and they never quite became whole people) is no longer a danger; in fact, the danger is to be too self-centered and closed. so I think I’m agreeing with you. > Independence can only go so far – but again, there’s no conflict > between retaining an autonomy as a person and relating to some other > autonomous person, as a matter of mutual choice. <snip> > > I have lived so long believing > >that going on with other things, living a good life and ignoring > >this one lack, was the honorable route. > "Honour" – hmmm, there’s a curious choice of words – what would be > dishonourable about admitting that the lack is an important one?

again, it goes back to shame.  as if it is dishonourable to cause people pain by exposing your own, when there is nothing to be done about it.  if that makes sense. <snip> > "They" do say to be real careful about what you wish for.  Have you > resolved that pain and anger, are you ready to at least put that > behind you?

it seems impossible to say.  I am just not that person anymore.  if there is pain and anger, it’s not evident:  I hardly think about him anymore.  the repercussions, though, are totally evident.  he was the grain of sand, now gone, that grew the pearl.  a pearl is too positive an image, but I can’t think of a different metaphor. the grain defined the contours of my current pyche, each layer repeating the shape of the original, distorting me, somehow. but how can you be angry at a grain of sand? jojo Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

jojo.. hugs for the hurting.. hunny your looking for the soulmate.. hard as it is to accept.. we each and everyone of us are.. that person that balances us.. makes us real no matter what our challenges, successes or losses are.. *real* .. be it poverty or success.. *real* sustains all Sometimes in my opinion.. it’s hard to say and kinda stick to that thought of God.. I’m a mear mortal.. I have wants and needs of love, we cry, we weep, we’re terrorized by those lonely thoughts.. it’s horribly lonely when you don’t feel gifted yet maybe you are.. but he wants me and you to do something that takes more strength than simply a relationship with another..  maybe suffer a bit till I or any find that nitch that will bring us to where we must be to find the other.. I guess I’m saying.. it takes great internal strength in this tilted world to be aware of the fact loneliness is normal.. yet maybe it’s born of a reason greater than any of us can ever perceive in our singular realities.. I too have stupid fixations of other’s that are not based in my own reality.. unseen, unknown.. unreal to me in my reality.. it scares me, it overwhelms me sometimes… I try to not go there in my head and keep always an awareness.. I’m on my own.. I’m my own person.. no one can fix me but myself.. tis no one who can make it better.. and I’m responsible to other’s that need me to support them.. be their role model as a parent.. and get out of my own twisted lonely overactive imaginative head..  forward motion.. always.. and especially when your the only one who can take care of realty checking of even yourself.. hugs.. jojo.. I hope you find what you seek.. kay Pamela <jojobe…@my-deja.com> wrote in message

news:93gbdv$jus$1@nnrp1.deja.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m still alone, sometimes it feels like I always have been, but > more and more of late I have felt this pull I am finding > hard to disguise, towards someone, or something.  I am > not usually like this. > It comes clothed in bouts of silly fixation that I indulge myself in. > Stupid obsessions for men who will ever remain unattainable.  I > have spent days locked in deeply woven fantasies that play out > in my head like well-written screen plays.  I drift along in > this head-life ignoring the real.  And where always before > I would not allow myself to want that which I acknowledge I > can never have, lately I start….I begin to let myself want it, > even if nothing has changed since 1988.  That was the last time > I was with someone seriously.  That was the one that closed > the door. > How strange that just imagining myself strong and inviolate in order > to get through some pain should lead to 13 years of loneliness > so deep I cannot speak of it to anyone.  It is total.  It bleeds > into my friendships because I cannot bear, for pride, to have them > pity me. > But lately, I am growing tired of my resolve. The walls > are broken as I mourn for others I see in movies or on tv who are > in a like situation; somehow I can cry for them but not for me. > These characters, though, are perfect and there is always a > resolution for them, either happy or sad; whereas I continue as > I always have, and I’m getting so tired of fighting my desire. > There should be no point in dreaming that something will change > the circumstances of my situation; logic tells me I am too trapped > in my own fear and pride to ever break out.  Logic should stop me, > but somehow lately I feel its hold growing weak in the face of > this tide of longing for someone to be with, to know me. > I used to think I was earning in style and grace for my resolve > and strength.  But I am 35 now, halfway to some lonely death > that my mother always promised would come.  She was more right than > she knew, I think, although she was only trying to scare me into > action, it was more a self-fulfilling prophecy.  And it has been > many years since she even tried to scare me, I seem so > steadfast in my course. > But what other course could I possibly follow?  My choices are none. > My inability to reach out, I think, is genetically determined.  I’m > like a sport in the evolutionary tree. I have no choice. I cannot > look the fool in trying otherwise. > And yet, this is untenable, this grief and useless fantasy, this > drifting from one unreal yet powerful attachment to another.  Will > this be the rest of my life?  One man defining the rest of my > life?  As a feminist I should be appalled, but it’s a terrible > Catch-22, because to need someone is also a conflict against > the independence I hold so dear. > Some song says: "Learn to pretend there’s more than love that > matters."  I don’t need to pretend.  It’s everything else in my > life that matters so deeply, usually.  I have so much:  friends > and music and work.  A half a dozen other focuses. So why this pain, > so strong right now, as if the buffer has been stacking for 13 years > and is letting loose at long last?  I have lived so long believing > that going on with other things, living a good life and ignoring > this one lack, was the honorable route.  But now I doubt, and > whoever repaid me with respect for it, anyway?  It’s laughable. > So sad, she.  But when I was dealing with the worst of my pain > and anger, those 13 years ago, I always thought:  the lone wolf, > why can’t I be the lone wolf?  And somehow, between then and now, > I became it.  I wasn’t even aware it was happening.  But here I am > trapped in a wolf’s body. What a sad joke. > So I think maybe I was wrong.  But now, it’s just too late. > I am paralyzed. > jojo > Sent via Deja.com > http://www.deja.com/

Response:

I got a Bunji.. Hey yo.. and I got JoJo Beans.. hanging on lady? ya know.. if we were cliff hanging.. twould be fun bouncing on that bunji? Pamela <jojobe…@my-deja.com> wrote in message

news:93iicn$g14$1@nnrp1.deja.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <20010109231019.00187.00000…@ng-cb1.aol.com>, >   dfrankj…@aol.com (Dfrankjazz) wrote: > >your prison bars are entirely of your own making, > >held in place by repetitve thoughts of your choosing. > >Create a counter-thought and let it work > >for you. Your soul is telling you this, that’s why the > >discontent.. > ok, imagine yourself in a deep well, you’re standing > at the bottom, and the water is cold, very cold, and > it’s up to your neck.  and someone looks down and says: > envision a rope! > I mean. > Sent via Deja.com > http://www.deja.com/

Response:

Ever hear of a "Shim" Wolf? It’s a thing us common folk use to keep things kinda sorta together.. like duck tape.. <grin> Pamela "Lone Wolf" <alw…@home.net> wrote in message

news:lH376.1937$3d7.49546@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Very impressively written.  It was startling because everything you wrote is > exactly how I feel.  My door shut 16 years ago. At 38, it isn’t looking like > it will open soon.  But I will try, and so should you.  I believe there is > always time.  It’s so very hard to come down from the hills and find comfort > and security in the pack.  Hard indeed after all these years. > Wolf

Response:

twas beautiful myshkin <Barry> and Wolf.. though those that know God, don’t turn away from others that are his children.. and money will never be the reining force or factor in heaven nor to get in heaven’s gate.. I too have that same protective cover, for when one has been slotted and pegged in a certain category.. one learns to not let it show how much it pains internally.. yet you never close doors.. you hope and you pray someone will see who you are from your eyes or will take the time on you to get to know the soul of you and not the presentation or the shell.. Pamela "myshkin" <mysh…@ekno.com> wrote in message

news:Xns9027733F325BFmyshkineknocom@203.167.237.198… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Lone Wolf" <alw…@home.net> wrote in > <j9m76.5935$N37.241…@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>: > Good post, Mr Wolf.  Its funny – my recollections of being 22 are > completely the opposite from yours and jojo’s – it was that age that I had > finally made real friends, had opened up to the world – being away from > home at university had a lot to do with that.  It was later, when I joined > the work force that things became harder – people were more focussed on > work, money, getting ahead and that environment where making friends was > the norm changed to where it became fraught.  I particularly noticed this > with females – suddenly just trying to make friends with them became > interpreted as attempts to date, and since I’ve never been seen as dating > material, I’d hit brick walls. > >I understand the dark pleasure of alienation, or as I have come to know > >it as the romance of solitude.  I think my romance with solitude began > >as a rebellion against the society that rejected me and would never let > >me in behind its doors.  If I was born an outcast then I would live as > >an outcast having been given nothing and taking what I need to survive. > I know this feeling, rather well. > >How to come down from the mountains you ask?  On this I have no answeres > >yet.  I have yet to find the path that leads down into the valley. > I found my path – can’t say I’ve taken every step along it, but yes I have > managed to re-open myself to a much greater extent than before.  It won’t > work for everyone and carries a risk of death, quite literally.  I only > read Nietszhe after I found my way out, but he formalises things much > better than I did – for me it was accidental.  His view is that if you’re > alone and feeling lonely, then that’s a legitimate feeling, let it take its > course, don’t take pills for it, don’t make up rationalisations that the > world isn’t good enough for you – just be lonely, let that experience wash > around you.  Bringing in another thinker (Kristeva), however, its critical > not to get stuck, you need to not cling to that loneliness as a kind of > security blanket – it sounds to me that jojo has to some extent, out of > fear of being hurt. > My personal experience is that I wallowed for a bit in loneliness, got to > be feeling really really sorry for myself and if I could have found a > painless way to do away with myself, probably would not be here to tell the > tale today.  But luckily I couldn’t and bottomed out, have actually gone > out into the world and made a lot of contacts in the last 18 months, > started serious attempts at writing as a form of communication.  The > following is something I wrote at the time of my emergence, which is still > true today: > "myshkin wonders about suicide, what with the fuss about it in Craccum. > [This is a student newspaper in which this letter was published.] He does > hope that when he’s old and wrinkly and really past any enjoyment of life, > the State and those around him don’t stand in the way of a peaceful exit, > can give him a helping hand if needed.  He thinks that one of the most > important rights we can have is to determine for ourselves when we’ve had > it and not suffer the indignity of the physical breakdown of our bodies. > Before then, he just doesn’t know.  He thinks it is an awful long time till > he is old and wrinkly, wonders what to do with that time.  myshkin has had > times when all has been black, seemingly without end, when he didn’t know > how he’d ever climb out of the pit.  He’s thought that if only there was > some painless and non-messy way to do away with himself, then he’d do it. > The church says it is against God’s will, but where’s God?  People say it > is a selfish act, but where are these people when someone’s feeling down? > Probably the first to castigate someone as a loser, to turn away from > another’s need. > myshkin lives, though.  He has learnt to value himself, to see his own > strength and quality and to see the same in others.  He has learnt to play > the game, to face the world with a smile and a joke even when inside he > cries.  He has been fortunate: there has always been a touch of beauty, of > laughter, of kindness even from complete strangers, maybe even you, that > has drawn him to dry off the tears, to live another day, to keep faith. > myshkin thanks all who have touched him in this way." > barry

Response:

your prison bars are entirely of your own making, held in place by repetitve thoughts of your choosing. Create a counter-thought and let it work for you. Your soul is telling you this, that’s why the discontent.. DF

Response:

Very impressively written.  It was startling because everything you wrote is exactly how I feel.  My door shut 16 years ago. At 38, it isn’t looking like it will open soon.  But I will try, and so should you.  I believe there is always time.  It’s so very hard to come down from the hills and find comfort and security in the pack.  Hard indeed after all these years. Wolf

Response:

In article <20010109231019.00187.00000…@ng-cb1.aol.com>,   dfrankj…@aol.com (Dfrankjazz) wrote: >your prison bars are entirely of your own making, >held in place by repetitve thoughts of your choosing. >Create a counter-thought and let it work >for you. Your soul is telling you this, that’s why the >discontent..

ok, imagine yourself in a deep well, you’re standing at the bottom, and the water is cold, very cold, and it’s up to your neck.  and someone looks down and says: envision a rope! I mean. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

In article <lH376.1937$3d7.49…@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,   "Lone Wolf" <alw…@home.net> wrote: > Very impressively written.  It was startling because everything you > wrote is exactly how I feel.  My door shut 16 years ago. At 38, it > isn’t looking like it will open soon.  But I will try, and so should > you.  I believe there is always time.  It’s so very hard to come > down from the hills and find comfort and security in the pack. > Hard indeed after all these years.

It is interesting to me that you must have been around 22 when it happened to you, too. Perhaps it is around that age when we solidify the way we relate to people.  I know that before then, I was open, freely giving, pretty much fearless.  It came naturally, it was a game.  But all that changed.  Not overnight, but so gradually I wasn’t aware of all the chances I was passing by.  I guess I always thought there would be another opportunity, when I was ready, when I was over it. But then I started to feel a dark pleasure in my alienation. That’s the side we don’t talk about.  At some point, I started to take an almost malicious delight in my solitariness, as if everyone else in the world was so pathetic and small to need someone.  Where does that come from?  Is it just I do not want to want what I cannot have?  Or is there something more? And how do we come down from the mountain and into the pack?  I almost can’t bear having people around me; I avoid parties because of the press of bodies, of people saying stupid things and connecting in ways that I can’t even approach.  Or worse, would they ignore me because I can’t make the right talk…I don’t even know if I would be worthwhile company, even if I were to force myself to be among them.  And anyway, I have, a couple of times, and come home early and spent the rest of the evening burning with embarrassment, feeling I looked and sounded like an idiot. I hope you are right.  I hope there is time.  I hope that this change I have felt lately is a sign that I can do something, somehow, about this.  If I can figure out what. I just don’t know where I’m supposed to start.  Or even if I am not just too weird for this world. jojo Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

I’m still alone, sometimes it feels like I always have been, but more and more of late I have felt this pull I am finding hard to disguise, towards someone, or something.  I am not usually like this. It comes clothed in bouts of silly fixation that I indulge myself in. Stupid obsessions for men who will ever remain unattainable.  I have spent days locked in deeply woven fantasies that play out in my head like well-written screen plays.  I drift along in this head-life ignoring the real.  And where always before I would not allow myself to want that which I acknowledge I can never have, lately I start….I begin to let myself want it, even if nothing has changed since 1988.  That was the last time I was with someone seriously.  That was the one that closed the door. How strange that just imagining myself strong and inviolate in order to get through some pain should lead to 13 years of loneliness so deep I cannot speak of it to anyone.  It is total.  It bleeds into my friendships because I cannot bear, for pride, to have them pity me. But lately, I am growing tired of my resolve. The walls are broken as I mourn for others I see in movies or on tv who are in a like situation; somehow I can cry for them but not for me. These characters, though, are perfect and there is always a resolution for them, either happy or sad; whereas I continue as I always have, and I’m getting so tired of fighting my desire. There should be no point in dreaming that something will change the circumstances of my situation; logic tells me I am too trapped in my own fear and pride to ever break out.  Logic should stop me, but somehow lately I feel its hold growing weak in the face of this tide of longing for someone to be with, to know me. I used to think I was earning in style and grace for my resolve and strength.  But I am 35 now, halfway to some lonely death that my mother always promised would come.  She was more right than she knew, I think, although she was only trying to scare me into action, it was more a self-fulfilling prophecy.  And it has been many years since she even tried to scare me, I seem so steadfast in my course. But what other course could I possibly follow?  My choices are none. My inability to reach out, I think, is genetically determined.  I’m like a sport in the evolutionary tree. I have no choice. I cannot look the fool in trying otherwise. And yet, this is untenable, this grief and useless fantasy, this drifting from one unreal yet powerful attachment to another.  Will this be the rest of my life?  One man defining the rest of my life?  As a feminist I should be appalled, but it’s a terrible Catch-22, because to need someone is also a conflict against the independence I hold so dear. Some song says: "Learn to pretend there’s more than love that matters."  I don’t need to pretend.  It’s everything else in my life that matters so deeply, usually.  I have so much:  friends and music and work.  A half a dozen other focuses. So why this pain, so strong right now, as if the buffer has been stacking for 13 years and is letting loose at long last?  I have lived so long believing that going on with other things, living a good life and ignoring this one lack, was the honorable route.  But now I doubt, and whoever repaid me with respect for it, anyway?  It’s laughable. So sad, she.  But when I was dealing with the worst of my pain and anger, those 13 years ago, I always thought:  the lone wolf, why can’t I be the lone wolf?  And somehow, between then and now, I became it.  I wasn’t even aware it was happening.  But here I am trapped in a wolf’s body. What a sad joke. So I think maybe I was wrong.  But now, it’s just too late. I am paralyzed. jojo Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

In article <93gbdv$ju…@nnrp1.deja.com>,   jojobe…@my-deja.com wrote: > It comes clothed in bouts of silly fixation that I indulge myself in. > Stupid obsessions for men who will ever remain unattainable.  I > have spent days locked in deeply woven fantasies that play out > in my head like well-written screen plays.  I drift along in > this head-life ignoring the real.  And where always before > I would not allow myself to want that which I acknowledge I > can never have, lately I start….I begin to let myself want it, > even if nothing has changed since 1988.  That was the last time > I was with someone seriously.  That was the one that closed > the door.

that sounds like me. diana Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

Filed under: Feminist

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