Short guys.
Question:
If he wants MY sympathy, he’ll speak about MY gender in a way that doesn’t offend me. It’s not PC… it’s common courtesy.
Expecting every male poster to censor his posts so as not to offend you is not a matter of "common courtesy"; it is a matter of you demanding the right to control the expressions of another. Further, you are now attempting to enforce that control by publically branding those who fail to conform to your personal preferences as Woman-Haters. I referred elsewhere to this as feminist bullying. I stand by that. You cannot tolerate a male expressing himself using words that are not on your List Of Things Men Are Allowed To Say, so you brand him, shame him, insult him, and then inflict the same abuse on those who refuse to uphold your right to treat him this way. You use passive-aggressive phrasing to make your bullying appear more benign, but that does not alter the fundamental character of the act. icarus
Response:
A couple years ago, I frequented a usenet group called alt.support.shyness. I quickly got tired of reading over and over and over how shallow women are.
I’m terribly sorry you had a bad experience in another group. And I’m sure that Lou will now walk out of this group with a similarly bad experience to remember. Does that justify him going out and taking pot-shots at some token woman to somehow "make up" for what he went through here (just like you are doing to him)? I got tired of reading how they’ll "put out" for some etcetcetc. I saw the same attitude as this thread’s original poster over there.
Wow. I didn’t realize that it was so *simple* to decipher the human soul. Gee, all I have to do is see if they use a Dirty Word, and, magically, I become privy to the deepest, innermost truths of their soul! Thanks, wombn, you’ve just revolutionized the field of psychology. Bitterness does not add to one’s attractiveness.
So he’s a Woman-Hater because you’ve decided he’s unattractive? One short-term female poster there said the group should be named alt.shy.mean.guys. They seemed to want a place to vent as bitterly as they could without regard to other (female) posters.
Again, sad story, but no excuse. I didn’t stick around for long. Don’t know if the group is still that way or not.
My guess is that you’d see any group of male posters that way (at least if they didn’t run every post by your personal rule book for certification first) … Interestingly enough though……. I married a guy I met there. He’d gotten past the urge to vent his bitternes on a daily basis. Which had *everything* to do with his success with me.
Has it ever occured to you that not every male in the world is interested in whether or not he appears attractive to you? Or is that too radical a position? You see, he didn’t expect me to make up for the actions of all the other women in the world.
Sounds like a good attitude. It would be nice if a few women here or there decided to approach men the same way, but, given the responses I’ve seen here in the past few days, I’m not holding my breath. icarus
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – banging? cunt bitch? puts out? maybe your attitude towards women is more of the problem. I’ll probably get flamed to high hell for saying this, but I think that’s a seriously cheap shot. This person didn’t say anything at all about his "attitude towards women". He simply used words that you apparantly don’t like. And, because he failed to translate everything he said into 90’s PC-speak, you now choose to brand him a (*gasp*) Gender Heretic. Sheesh. Ikky dear, language is the means by which we encode our world.
Quite true. That does not at all, however, imply that all of us "encode" our world in exactly the same way. Different words carry different meanings and connotations to different people. What wombn (and, apparantly, most everyone else in this group) is doing is taking *one* person’s words (Lou’s) and attaching *another* person’s (their own) connotations to them, and then damning Lou as a Woman-Hater because of the connotations that *they* attached to certain words, without any regard for the actual meaning that the speaker was trying to convey. Like I said previously, that is simply a way of taking a cheap shot to make somebody who has failed to conform to your personal preferences. In short, it is a bullying tactic. If this guy is describing women using these words, he is most likely expressing the way he truly feels about them.
Translation : "If this male is choosing to use, in any context and for any reason, Words That Males Are Not Allowed To Use, then I will project onto him all of my deepest, darkest fears about men, and assume that all are irrefutably true of him individually. Anyone who questions my right to mistreat him in this way will suffer a like fate." His attitude towards women shines through loud and clear.
He hasn’t even attempted to address the issue. He is guilty of nothing more than the *horrible* crime of Cursing While Male. Gender Heretic (TM)? Naw, he’s just a jerk.
I doubt seriously that anyone here will make the effort to find out whether or not that’s true. wombn, married to a shorter than average manicarus, unmarried and low on patience Tara BallanceMontreal, Canada
icarus — local heretic.
Response:
banging? cunt bitch? puts out? maybe your attitude towards women is more of the problem. I’ll probably get flamed to high hell for saying this, but I think that’s a seriously cheap shot. This person didn’t say anything at all about his "attitude towards women". He simply used words that you apparantly don’t like. And, because he failed to translate everything he said into 90’s PC-speak, you now choose to brand him a (*gasp*) Gender Heretic. Sheesh.
Ikky dear, language is the means by which we encode our world. If this guy is describing women using these words, he is most likely expressing the way he truly feels about them. His attitude towards women shines through loud and clear. Gender Heretic (TM)? Naw, he’s just a jerk. wombn, married to a shorter than average manicarus, unmarried and low on patience
Tara BallanceMontreal, Canada
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – banging? cunt bitch? puts out? maybe your attitude towards women is more of the problem. I’ll probably get flamed to high hell for saying this, but I think that’s a seriously cheap shot. This person didn’t say anything at all about his "attitude towards women". He simply used words that you apparantly don’t like. And, because he failed to translate everything he said into 90’s PC-speak, you now choose to brand him a (*gasp*) Gender Heretic. Sheesh. wombn, married to a shorter than average man icarus, unmarried and low on patience
I have very little patience with PC-speak, but I find those words extremely offensive. Their only purpose is to degrade women. I’m sure the women on this ng who’ve escaped abusive relationships could give you plenty of examples of when those words were applied to them, with no provocation, for exactly that purpose. Anybody who uses those words casually does so either because he learned it from friends or family who had serious problems with anger towards women, or because he himself has those issues. Judging from his original post, I’d say he has those problems himself. Or shall I just start referring to you as a "prick"? Oh, you don’t like that? C’mon, just get over it. Sheesh!! Melissa — But what it takes to cross the great divide Seems more than all the courage I can muster up inside. But we get to have some answers when we reach the other side. The prize is always worth the rocky ride. –Indigo Girls
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know, one thing that has dogged me forever (since junior high as a matter of fact) is the fact that i’m short. I’m a white male just under 5′6" tall. Going through high school realizing how I never measured up to a normal guy, never getting the girls, never being deemed attractive or whatever, really has fucked up my self esteem and how i view myself and others. To me, girls don’t give a fuck about short guys, most end up wanting, banging, going out with guys that are taller (at least average height). I’ve never been happy with my looks either. This has grown into a huge jealousy over anyone else that’s in a relationship. I go to the mall (feel awkward), notice a young couple, and immediately feel rage inside me, like how dare this cunt bitch date this stupid ass guy, he’s probably an asshole, doesn’t care about her, yet she still puts out to him." Combine this with lots of other problems and you’ve got the makings of a depressive maniac.
Why, I do hope you’re not going to serial-kill tall guys, for I’d feel a bit of a target, you know. Come on, Lou, you could try be a bit less offensive, okay? We’ve got this happy family thing going here, and you’re a wee bit out of tune. (Oh, boy…did I say *wee*…. no no, I didn’t mean it *that* way… not at all) Harold
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know, one thing that has dogged me forever (since junior high as a matter of fact) is the fact that i’m short. I’m a white male just under 5′6" tall. Going through high school realizing how I never measured up to a normal guy, never getting the girls, never being deemed attractive or whatever, really has fucked up my self esteem and how i view myself and others. To me, girls don’t give a fuck about short guys, most end up wanting, banging, going out with guys that are taller (at least average height). I’ve never been happy with my looks either. This has grown into a huge jealousy over anyone else that’s in a relationship. I go to the mall (feel awkward), notice a young couple, and immediately feel rage inside me, like how dare this cunt bitch date this stupid ass guy, he’s probably an asshole, doesn’t care about her, yet she still puts out to him." Combine this with lots of other problems and you’ve got the makings of a depressive maniac. banging? cunt bitch? puts out? maybe your attitude towards women is more of the problem. wombn, married to a shorter than average man
Yeah I do have to say his descriptive post offended me too. I was ready to tell him I’m 4′11" and consider him tall, but after reading his post I was nothing more then offended and put off Jane
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know, one thing that has dogged me forever (since junior high as a matter of fact) is the fact that i’m short. I’m a white male just under 5′6" tall. Going through high school realizing how I never measured up to a normal guy, never getting the girls, never being deemed attractive or whatever, really has fucked up my self esteem and how i view myself and others. To me, girls don’t give a fuck about short guys, most end up wanting, banging, going out with guys that are taller (at least average height). I’ve never been happy with my looks either. This has grown into a huge jealousy over anyone else that’s in a relationship. I go to the mall (feel awkward), notice a young couple, and immediately feel rage inside me, like how dare this cunt bitch date this stupid ass guy, he’s probably an asshole, doesn’t care about her, yet she still puts out to him." Combine this with lots of other problems and you’ve got the makings of a depressive maniac. Lou
Hi all, I am new here. Just wanted to tell Lou, I am a 5′6" woman, was dating and madly in love with a 5′4" man, older, balding, glasses, big nose, but VERY SEXY. I always remember him telling me once that the reason his height never bothered him is that, although some women may be taller than him "when you lay them down they are all the same size". (No, he is not a sexist pig, it was a joke.) I has also been my experience that men care more about looks than women do. I am much more attracted by intellect than by appearance, and have felt that if a man chose me (or did not choose me) solely because of my appearance he was probably not someone I wanted to be with anyway. Hope this is helpful. Avalon
Response:
banging? cunt bitch? puts out? maybe your attitude towards women is more of the problem.
I’ll probably get flamed to high hell for saying this, but I think that’s a seriously cheap shot. This person didn’t say anything at all about his "attitude towards women". He simply used words that you apparantly don’t like. And, because he failed to translate everything he said into 90’s PC-speak, you now choose to brand him a (*gasp*) Gender Heretic. Sheesh. wombn, married to a shorter than average man
icarus, unmarried and low on patience — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email — always at Talkway.
Response:
You know, one thing that has dogged me forever (since junior high as a matter of fact) is the fact that i’m short. I’m a white male just under 5′6" tall. Going through high school realizing how I never measured up to a normal guy, never getting the girls, never being deemed attractive or whatever, really has fucked up my self esteem and how i view myself and others. To me, girls don’t give a fuck about short guys, most end up wanting, banging, going out with guys that are taller (at least average height). I’ve never been happy with my looks either. This has grown into a huge jealousy over anyone else that’s in a relationship. I go to the mall (feel awkward), notice a young couple, and immediately feel rage inside me, like how dare this cunt bitch date this stupid ass guy, he’s probably an asshole, doesn’t care about her, yet she still puts out to him." Combine this with lots of other problems and you’ve got the makings of a depressive maniac. Lou
Response:
[snip] In your mind, this may be true. But that does not mean that every other
person on the planet attaches the same sinister "purpose" to particular combinations of letters that you do. And just because you *personally* feel this way does not give you the right to project your assumed "purpose" onto *every other person* who doesnot happen to agree with your personal views. [snip] Uhhhhh…. "scuse me Ickster, but isn’t this *exactly* what you are doing with wombn’s words –projecting "your assumed purpose" onto someones words that don’t happen to agree with your views? Am I missing something here, or is this a situation where, "you are being *precisely* what you profess to hate" –but, unfortunately, are completely blind to it? Bummer, dOOd p/e -addy prob — greg :: Bodhisattva with a real bad attitude Take the *JUNKMAIL out of my addy to reply by email
Response:
Let me guess, your a guy right!
I may not be short, but I, too, am a guy. At least, I think I am. Hang about while I check. "Guy: n; a joke, lark". Yup, I’m a guy. Now what do I have to do to convince other people? — The opinions given above may be mine. They might also just be what I feel like saying right now, okay?
Response:
x-no-archive: yes He simply used words that you apparantly don’t like. Those words *were* pretty harsh.
There are lots of words that are pretty harsh. I didn’t read what he said as being terribly offensive, because the whole post was in such a tone of anger and frustration and it seemed like the language was just kind of… aggravated.
That was what I was trying to get at. Unfortunately, so many people were dead-set on projecting their own personal fears and predispositions into the Forbidden Words of another that the actual substance of his post got completely ignored. When people have experienced rejection they do get angry and suspicious and it turns into a vicious cycle. I have some sympathy with the guy. What really bugs me is when people go out of their way to *defend* careless statements like this.
I am defending his right to speak as he chooses without being lynched as a heretic by a few self-righteous bullies. That is not simply an issue of a few words, it is a fundamental principle that, IMHO, is necessary to the functioning of any group ostensibly dedicated to the concept of "support". Hell, *I* came here because I have been borderline suicidal for the last two years, and because I finally felt that I would like to begin to talk about it, safely, anonymously, with a group of people who would understand and not lynch people because they weren’t "correct" in their thinking. Boy, did I get that one wrong. And, because he failed to translate everything he said into 90’s PC-speak, you now choose to brand him a (*gasp*) Gender Heretic. Sheesh. Wait a minute… how do you ‘translate’ those words into P.C.-speak? You think you can change the words and express the same idea? Words have meaning,
Very true. But those meanings are also fluid. IOW, the meaning and connotations that one person attaches to a particular word are not necessarily the same as those that another person attaches to that same word. Just because *I* find a particular word or phrase offensive in a particular way, that does *not* mean that every person who uses it is doing so out of spite for my personal beliefs. They may neither know of, nor care about, the meanings I attribute to particular words and phrases. And I do not believe that I would be justified in damning them as Woman-Haters, Man-Haters, or any other 90’s slur, just because they failed to conform to the demands of my personal preferences. Anyway this is such a tired old bogus argument— claiming that uncouth and discourteous comments are simply ‘not PC.’
I would not have defended him against charges of being "uncouth" or "discourteous". I am, however, defending him against the notion that he is some Woman-Hating Monster just because he used words that Wombn & Co. didn’t approve of. People think they can get away with saying some absolutely sh**ty thing and then give it some kind of intellectual status by referring to it as a ‘heresy.’
I thought the word "heresy" is exactly appropriate to this situation. I still do. And I personally don’t care whether or not anyone here accords that argument "intellectual status" (whatever you mean by that). All I ask for is a fair hearing, on the merits. Instead, all I appear to have gotten is damnation-by-association, intermixed with cheap shots, slanders, and empty abuse. I appreciate that you have at least tried to put together a reasoned response to what I had to say, as you are one of *very* few. Thank you for that, at least. Come on, save the ideas of PC and ‘heresy’ for something that’s got some intellectual content.
You mean, "just look the other way … that victim had it coming" ? And this ’sheesh’ business. Why do people say this so much? It indicates a level of contempt and disdain which can properly be expressed only by not *bothering* to reply.
I’d rather stand up to a bully than remain silent and wait for the next attack. And that is exactly the situation here, as I see it (passive-aggressive phrasing of the attacks notwithstanding). icarus – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Naomi D.
Response:
Woof! *THIS* is what the Ickman flamed you for? This is the comment that made you a feminist bully? This is what Icky needed to resist so that you couldn’t "control him"? Personally… I think the guy is lucky he got away with his life, you are one scary gal wombn. Insisting that if someone wants respect from you that they should also treat you with respect –you’ve really got some nerve! I suppose next you’ll want the vote? What do you mean you’ve already got that? When did that happen? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – oh here it is! he called someone a cunt cus she had a boyfriend and you didnt like that wombn? what’s the matter with you ? dont you like being reduced to a body part that can be fucked when you cant or wont make some short guy happy? SHHEEESH! s a r c ! said: banging? cunt bitch? puts out? maybe your attitude towards women is more of the problem. I’ll probably get flamed to high hell for saying this, but I think that’s a seriously cheap shot. This person didn’t say anything at all about his "attitude towards women". He simply used words that you apparantly don’t like. And, because he failed to translate everything he said into 90’s PC-speak, you now choose to brand him a (*gasp*) Gender Heretic. Sheesh. wombn, married to a shorter than average man icarus, unmarried and low on patience If he wants MY sympathy, he’ll speak about MY gender in a way that doesn’t offend me. It’s not PC… it’s common courtesy.
– greg :: Bodhisattva with a real bad attitude Take the *JUNKMAIL out of my addy to reply by email
Response:
Let me guess, your a guy right! I found his post offensive and crude, all he wanted was support but it all fell to the side after reading his crudeness. I was unable to find any sympathy after reading all his crudeness. Get what I mean? I’m sorry that doesn’t sit well with you. You are turning this into more then it should be, why drag it through the mud, you will not change anyone’s mind about how they felt about this. Plain and simple, we wanted support on some low self esteem issues and his vulgarity ruined what he was trying to accomplish. The end, why bother hashing out what he meant and what we mean. Have you seen him post anymore to defend his position? Maybe he was a troll? Or maybe he realized his post was not taken the way he intended it to be or maybe he’s sitting there laughing his ass off, because he accomplished a hell of a lot more by being crude. End of my discussion Jane
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes He simply used words that you apparantly don’t like. Those words *were* pretty harsh. There are lots of words that are pretty harsh. I didn’t read what he said as being terribly offensive, because the whole post was in such a tone of anger and frustration and it seemed like the language was just kind of… aggravated. That was what I was trying to get at. Unfortunately, so many people were dead-set on projecting their own personal fears and predispositions into the Forbidden Words of another that the actual substance of his post got completely ignored. When people have experienced rejection they do get angry and suspicious and it turns into a vicious cycle. I have some sympathy with the guy. What really bugs me is when people go out of their way to *defend* careless statements like this. I am defending his right to speak as he chooses without being lynched as a heretic by a few self-righteous bullies. That is not simply an issue of a few words, it is a fundamental principle that, IMHO, is necessary to the functioning of any group ostensibly dedicated to the concept of "support". Hell, *I* came here because I have been borderline suicidal for the last two years, and because I finally felt that I would like to begin to talk about it, safely, anonymously, with a group of people who would understand and not lynch people because they weren’t "correct" in their thinking. Boy, did I get that one wrong. And, because he failed to translate everything he said into 90’s PC-speak, you now choose to brand him a (*gasp*) Gender Heretic. Sheesh. Wait a minute… how do you ‘translate’ those words into P.C.-speak? You think you can change the words and express the same idea? Words have meaning, Very true. But those meanings are also fluid. IOW, the meaning and connotations that one person attaches to a particular word are not necessarily the same as those that another person attaches to that same word. Just because *I* find a particular word or phrase offensive in a particular way, that does *not* mean that every person who uses it is doing so out of spite for my personal beliefs. They may neither know of, nor care about, the meanings I attribute to particular words and phrases. And I do not believe that I would be justified in damning them as Woman-Haters, Man-Haters, or any other 90’s slur, just because they failed to conform to the demands of my personal preferences. Anyway this is such a tired old bogus argument— claiming that uncouth and discourteous comments are simply ‘not PC.’ I would not have defended him against charges of being "uncouth" or "discourteous". I am, however, defending him against the notion that he is some Woman-Hating Monster just because he used words that Wombn & Co. didn’t approve of. People think they can get away with saying some absolutely sh**ty thing and then give it some kind of intellectual status by referring to it as a ‘heresy.’ I thought the word "heresy" is exactly appropriate to this situation. I still do. And I personally don’t care whether or not anyone here accords that argument "intellectual status" (whatever you mean by that). All I ask for is a fair hearing, on the merits. Instead, all I appear to have gotten is
damnation-by-association, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – intermixed with cheap shots, slanders, and empty abuse. I appreciate that you have at least tried to put together a reasoned response to what I had to say, as you are one of *very* few. Thank you for that, at least. Come on, save the ideas of PC and ‘heresy’ for something that’s got some intellectual content. You mean, "just look the other way … that victim had it coming" ? And this ’sheesh’ business. Why do people say this so much? It indicates a level of contempt and disdain which can properly be expressed only by not *bothering* to reply. I’d rather stand up to a bully than remain silent and wait for the next attack. And that is exactly the situation here, as I see it (passive-aggressive phrasing of the attacks notwithstanding). icarus Naomi D.
Response:
Bitterness does not add to one’s attractiveness. So he’s a Woman-Hater because you’ve decided he’s unattractive?
For me, what makes a man attractive goes far beyond physical appearance. An attitude of bitterness would *definitely* make one – male or female – unattractive. — Bluebird
Response:
34 lines of text: Hi all, I am new here. Just wanted to tell Lou, I am a 5′6" woman, was dating and madly in love with a 5′4" man,
yup! that’s me! 
older,
that will be me! balding,
that will be me! glasses,
that’s me! big nose,
that might be me someday! 
but VERY SEXY.
even with my full head of hair and youth, and even if I were tall, wore no glasses, and had an exceptionally well-built body…. i would still be the least sexiest man who ever lived. that’s how pathetic i am beneath the surface…. honesty, depression, realisticness, timidity, and low self esteem are not sexy at all… and that’s just scratching the surface of my patheticity. Beneath that surface I am hell itself. I always remember him telling me once that the reason his height never bothered him is that, although some women may be taller than him "when you lay them down they are all the same size". (No, he is not a sexist pig, it was a joke.) I has also been my experience that men care more about looks than women do. I am much more attracted by intellect than by appearance, and have felt that if a man chose me (or did not choose me) solely because of my appearance he was probably not someone I wanted to be with anyway. Hope this is helpful.
not for me it isn’t. if i hadn’t already known what you just told, i wouldn’t be so depressed. Avalon
truthseeker
Response:
Let me guess, your a guy right!
And an unapologetic one, at that. However, I don’t really see this as a male-female thing as much as an issue of censorship and harassment. If you want to write off what I’m saying because of my gender, though, I certainly can’t stop you. I found his post offensive and crude, all he wanted was support but it all fell to the side after reading his crudeness.
Does that mean that he can be presumes to hate women, and is deserving of harassment because of that pressumed belief? I’m not being flip, because that is what this discussion has been about from day one. I was unable to find any sympathy after reading all his crudeness. Get what I mean?
Sure. I’m not easily offended (despite appearances at present), but there are things that do get to me too (obviously). But there is a big difference between (i) being offended and (ii) projecting your offense onto another person by attributing anti-woman beliefs to them based on a few Dirty Words. This is especially true when those making the attribution propose to back it up with harassment and flames (as my experience *more* than amply demonstrates). I’m sorry that doesn’t sit well with you. You are turning this into more then it should be, why drag it through the mud, you will not change anyone’s mind about how they felt about this.
I agree that this has been blown out of proportion, in some senses; but the central issue of people being damned as heretics because of nonconformity, be it linguistic or otherwise, *is* an important issue — here, probably more than anywhere. … The end, why bother hashing out what he meant and what we mean. Have you seen him post anymore to defend his position? Maybe he was a troll?
Actually, he posted several other times to this group, although not to this thread. If he was a troll, he was a troll who claimed to have survived a lot of very nasty shit, not the least of which being a very long history of being sexually abused. Maybe that’s one of the other reasons I take as much offense as I do to the sort of predatory labeling Wombn & Co. are engaging in. It sweeps way too much under the rug. Or maybe he realized his post was not taken the way he intended it to be or maybe he’s sitting there laughing his ass off, because he accomplished a hell of a lot more by being crude.
Maybe. But I doubt we’ll never know. icarus
Response:
x-no-archive: yes Unfortunately, so many people were dead-set on projecting their own personal fears and predispositions into the Forbidden Words of another that the actual substance of his post got completely ignored. ‘So many people?’ ‘Completely ignored?’ Unless I was hallucinating that day there were a couple of supportive posts.
I haven’t seen them. Of course, I’ve been so busy wading through flames the last two days that I could easily have missed something. Of course, the other question I’d have to ask is "supportive of whom"? If you’re talking about Lou, then I wouldn’t even consider *my* posts to be necessarily "supportive", except of his right to heard on his own terms, and not to be an object of projection for others. As for me, I’ve seen exactly one post on this group giving me any credit at all for having a working brain. If there are more, it would be nice to know. Btw, if you’re looking for associated flames, go to the "GREG" thread … not that it’s pretty, but it’s relevent context to this discussion. I am, however, defending him against the notion that he is some Woman-Hating Monster just because he used words that Wombn & Co. didn’t approve of. Wombn didn’t say anything like that. Nobody did. You’re putting words into her mouth and/or anyone else’s that you’re referring to.
She phrased it slightly less aggressively, but the meaning is the same. Instead, all I appear to have gotten is damnation-by-association, intermixed with cheap shots, slanders, and empty abuse. Really, you thought it was that harsh?
On the other thread, yes. Here, not so bad, although there are a few ugly spots. icarus
Response:
Woof! *THIS* is what the Ickman flamed you for? This is the comment that made you a feminist bully? This is what Icky needed to resist so that you couldn’t "control him"?
Demanding the right to censor another person’s speech is the epitomy of a desire to control. Personally… I think the guy is lucky he got away with his life, you are one scary gal wombn.
Translation : "Boy, he’s lucky you didn’t try to beat him up worse!" Insisting that if someone wants respect from you that they should also treat you with respect –you’ve really got some nerve!
I couldn’t care less about whether or not she respects me, or anyone else here. I take issue, however, when she starts declaring men to be Woman-Haters because they fail to conform to her personal linguistic preferences. I’ve said that so many times I’m sounding like a broken record. Do you get it yet? And, btw, if you need evidence of the bullying tactics being used on this newsgroup, I strongly suggest you look at your own posts, as well as the "GREG" thread, which is now a monument to that particular tactic. Attempting to verbally abuse a person into submission is not the best way to show everyone how tolerant and non-bullying you are. Of course, no one has paid much attention to what I’ve said so far, so you can probably get away with it if you want to. So, go back there and take a few more shots. Don’t worry, no one will *dare* oppose you and yours have given me the beating I deserve. Bullies? Nah… I suppose next you’ll want the vote?
Yep, another cheap shot. After all, I must be a Woman-Hater too for disagreeing with you and yours (right?). You know, this is *exactly* the kind of abusive and socially predatory behavior I have been taking issue with. Not that you’ll care, because you obviously seem to feel that this sort of harassment makes you friends here. I just hope my disgust isn’t too apparant … icarus — who will continue to be verbally assaulted, insulted, slandered and harassed until he admits that the persons doing it are *not* acting like bullies …
Response:
Uhhhhh…. "scuse me Ickster, but isn’t this *exactly* what you are doing with wombn’s words –projecting "your assumed purpose" onto someones words that don’t happen to agree with your views?
Hmmm. Maybe you’re right. You tell me : wombn’s entire 4-line reply is quoted here : banging? cunt bitch? puts out? maybe your attitude towards women is more of the problem. I took that to mean that : (i) she was publically declaring his "attitude towards women" to be suspect, which is a shorthand way of saying that a man is a misogynist (ie : woman-hater). (Reference : line 4 of her post.) (ii) her evidence for this is that he used Dirty Words. (Reference : lines 1-3 of her post). From (i) and (ii) I concluded that she was declaring him to be a misogynist because he used Dirty Words. I believe that reading is not only sound, but is the only *possible* reading of this 4-line response. If you can come up with an alternate reading, please enlighten me. Am I missing something here, or is this a situation where, "you are being *precisely* what you profess to hate" –but, unfortunately, are completely blind to it?
In my humble opinion, you are missing something. icarus
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i don’t think wombn was saying he can’t post such stuff, just that she isn’t going to respect him if he does. that’s not controlling, that’s not censorship. it’s wombn’s respect and wombn’s sympathy, to do with as she will.
She said nothing about her personal respect or sympathy. She quoted *nothing* but the "dirty words" in the post — and absolutely *nothing* else — and then declared him a hater-of-women on that basis, and that basis alone. Re-read her post, and if you can show me how it can be interpreted differently, I’m all ears. Further, you are now attempting to enforce that control by publically branding those who fail to conform to your personal preferences as Woman-Haters. I referred elsewhere to this as feminist bullying. I stand by that. You cannot tolerate a male expressing himself using words that are not on your List Of Things Men Are Allowed To Say, it’s not that he used un-PC words, it’s the fact that his words implied that he considers women to only be for one thing, "putting out".
Please explain, specifically, where he said that. The quote you supply below says nothing of the kind. It definitely contains the rantings of a lonely and sexually-deprived short guy, but *nowhere* does he state, explicitly or implicitly, that "he considers women to be only for one thing". He doesn’t even address the issue, and no one, apparantly, saw fit to even bother to ask. he said: "like how dare this cunt bitch date this stupid ass guy, he’s probably an asshole, doesn’t care about her, yet she still puts out to him." he could have used the more PCesque: "like how dare this silly female date this dumb guy, he’s probably quite mean, doesn’t care about her, yet she still grants sexual favours to him." and that would be just as offensive. it’s nothing to do with the *words* he used, but the attitude behind them.
I would redirect you to wombn’s initial reply. She quoted **nothing** but the "dirty words" contained in the post. To say that her response had "nothing to do with the *words* he used" is to ignore the **entire** substance of her reply. It is the only thing to which she made any reference at all. icarus
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wrote these exquisite 55 lines of text: even with my full head of hair and youth, and even if I were tall, wore no glasses, and had an exceptionally well-built body…. i would still be the least sexiest man who ever lived. that’s how pathetic i am beneath the surface….
BINGO!!!!!! You got it, fuck-face. Chris DuBose – truth-seeker, outspoken advocate for lonely hearts, and computer science graduate of Cal Poly Pomona http://www.mindspring.com/~cdubose Fan of Queen, Xena, Angband, Star Trek, Seattle, and Torey Hayden "If you’re feeling kinda nothing, don’t try so hard" – Queen – Innuendo
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Let me guess, your a guy right! I may not be short, but I, too, am a guy. At least, I think I am. Hang about while I check. "Guy: n; a joke, lark". Yup, I’m a guy. Now what do I have to do to convince other people?
Just wanted to say "thank you" for posting the one reply so far to this thread to which I *don’t* have to post a lengthy defense. Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou icarus — fighting fires since day before yesterday
Response:
I have very little patience with PC-speak, but I find those words extremely offensive.
I find many things offensive, too. So what? Their only purpose is to degrade women.
In your mind, this may be true. But that does not mean that every other person on the planet attaches the same sinister "purpose" to particular combinations of letters that you do. And just because you *personally* feel this way does not give you the right to project your assumed "purpose" onto *every other person* who does not happen to agree with your personal views. I’m sure the women on this ng who’ve escaped abusive relationships could give you plenty of examples of when those words were applied to them, with no provocation, for exactly that purpose.
And, in such cases, it is *abuse* that is the issue, not mere words. As I tried to point out in response to another of wombn’s posts, many victims of rape and sexual abuse could attach similar significance to words like "fucking", but that has not stopped wombn, or anyone else here, from using that word frequently. So, personally, I don’t really buy your use of this argument, because too many of those using it here do not act in accordance with its implications. What I think is that these particular words simply offend *you*, and because they offend you you’ve decided to try and rationalize that offense in a way that attempts to give your *personal* offense greater significance than the mere offense of a single person. Anybody who uses those words casually does so either because he learned it from friends or family who had serious problems with anger towards women, or because he himself has those issues.
I would *love* to see you even *begin* to try to prove this assertion, but I’m quite sure I won’t live to see it. What I think is that it just sounded good to you, it was what you wanted to hear, so you parrot it like a Christian parrots a Bible verse. I could be wrong, but you’d have to provide some *seriously* strong evidence to back up such an incredibly broad blanket claim about something so fluid as *human language*. Judging from his original post, I’d say he has those problems himself.
No one up till now has even mentioned any part of his post other than Those Dirty Words. If you can back this up, please do. It would be a nice break from the empty chorus of hellfire and damnation that is springing up around here. Or shall I just start referring to you as a "prick"?
You wouldn’t be the first, and you won’t be the last. Interestingly, though, if I take your own logic and apply it to this sentence, I would conclude that you have some "serious problems with anger towards [men]". After all, "[a]nybody who uses those words", even "casually", fits the bill (right?). Oh, you don’t like that?
Frankly, you can call me whatever you want. Hell, there’s a line forming in here to call me names these days. So be it. Whether or not I like it, however, I would not publically brand you as a Man-Hater because of it. C’mon, just get over it. Sheesh!!
(nice try at parody, btw. I’m flattered). icarus — who finally has his posting connection fixed.
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Filed under: Feminist
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