Activism Change

OK.. here's a REAL can of worms.

Question:

: First off, some of you may recognize the name ptelesco. My wife is the : author, Trish Telesco. I only make this known because i don’t want : anyone thinking I am starting trouble. I just really need to ask the : next few questions: : 1- how many men and women here have taken to swinging the male : dominated social pendulum too far the other way? : I have seen and heard far too much about how viscous and evil men are : from women who then turn right around and state that women are far : less viscous. : And this is right after condemning men for the fact they are men! : And there are men who do the same thing. They feel the need to give : into a collective guilt. : 2- are there any other PEOPLE (note that I do not from this point on : make a point of gender) who really just want to get away from bashing : of any type? : I would like to know. Who amongst you wish to end ALL sexual : repression. Drop it. No pointing fingers. No name calling. Just treat : each person on their own merits. : 3- Anyone up to it? : Paul Telesco In my experience, I have found that many folk new to Wicca let the pedulum swing too far to the other side. On top of men-bashing (or being *really* excited at the thought of loose Wiccan womem), they tend to bash Christians, Jews, etc. This usually passes with time, study, and experience. I would venture a guess that the *majority* of Wiccans do not male-bash. What’s the point, after all? BB Marjorie HPs, Our Lady of the Sycamores Modkin, Soc.Rel.Paganism

Response:

I’ve seen the occasional "gender-basher" in print (book and electronic) — strangely enough, I don’t believe I’ve ever met one in person. My wife says that’s because I’m rather androgenous (sp?) in personality — I say it’s because I was raised in a woman-dominant household. (Dad ruled the roost: Mom ruled the rooster <g.)

This is a side note and probably totally irrelevant to the conversation. My friend’s parents used to have this sign on the wall:  "I’m the captain of this ship, meet my wife the admiral." Love and Laughter, Stevie Do not meddle in affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -First off, some of you may recognize the name ptelesco. My wife is the author, Trish Telesco. I only make this known because i don’t want anyone thinking I am starting trouble. I just really need to ask the next few questions: 1- how many men and women here have taken to swinging the male dominated social pendulum too far the other way? I have seen and heard far too much about how viscous and evil men are from women who then turn right around and state that women are far less viscous. And this is right after condemning men for the fact they are men! And there are men who do the same thing. They feel the need to give into a collective guilt. 2- are there any other PEOPLE (note that I do not from this point on make a point of gender) who really just want to get away from bashing of any type? I would like to know. Who amongst you wish to end ALL sexual repression. Drop it. No pointing fingers. No name calling. Just treat each person on their own merits. 3- Anyone up to it? Paul Telesco Note: I usually don’t hit this group.

Why ask these questions of a Wiccan newsgroup? Just curious. The Watcher

Response:

: First off, some of you may recognize the name ptelesco. My wife is the : author, Trish Telesco. I only make this known because i don’t want : anyone thinking I am starting trouble. I just really need to ask the : next few questions: : : 1- how many men and women here have taken to swinging the male : dominated social pendulum too far the other way? : : I have seen and heard far too much about how viscous and evil men are : from women who then turn right around and state that women are far : less viscous. : : And this is right after condemning men for the fact they are men! : : And there are men who do the same thing. They feel the need to give : into a collective guilt. : : 2- are there any other PEOPLE (note that I do not from this point on : make a point of gender) who really just want to get away from bashing : of any type? : : I would like to know. Who amongst you wish to end ALL sexual : repression. Drop it. No pointing fingers. No name calling. Just treat : each person on their own merits. : : 3- Anyone up to it? : : Paul Telesco : : Note: I usually don’t hit this group. : Why ask these questions of a Wiccan newsgroup? : Just curious. : The Watcher

Response:

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Wed, 23 Sep 1998 1- how many men and women here have taken to swinging the male dominated social pendulum too far the other way?

Yes, it’s happened. However, I honestly think it is a case of the radical (fill-in-the-blank) gets remembered, while the 99 non- radicals get forgotten. I’ve seen the occasional "gender-basher" in print (book and electronic) — strangely enough, I don’t believe I’ve ever met one in person. My wife says that’s because I’m rather androgenous (sp?) in personality — I say it’s because I was raised in a woman-dominant household. (Dad ruled the roost: Mom ruled the rooster <g.) 2- are there any other PEOPLE (note that I do not from this point on make a point of gender) who really just want to get away from bashing of any type?

Well, I’d also have to include bashing on the basis of national   origin, skin color (I do not accept the concept of "race"), and religion of choice, including Christian. Give me a "bash free" environment on those four factors — better yet, let me see a world where the diversity of each of those factors is respected — and I’d be a happy man. (But, humans being what we are, I’m not holding my breath!) 3- Anyone up to it?

If I say "I am," I’d be stretching the point. How about "I try." Some days I do better than others. Taliesin of Earthstar HP, Earthstar Coven Website under construction jw <UNDERSCORE eiler <AT bellsouth <DOT net WARNING: Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to the above address enters you into the agreement that you accept a charge of $50 U.S. for proof-reading, grammar, and spelling correction. This agreement does not apply to requested information. —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: 2.6.3a Charset: cp850 iQEVAwUBNghb+sgPAqIFAO5RAQGjegf/U/zetLHHt4uxOkR2+V4pCS4X8C3KT/xI JV3DoGG6/LVmqtpXwl4TfZpKwNU5+ZjIXXZgm/5iB6aIM79QkynT9HPsZtfeZL9O 2CweojlIL5IDrgvs5EhieEM1KK4BYwaNo9NCXqY7yyi/MfqhrmvHC7DF3E1P7do+ UAfcyzl+NgctvMNPCfCgZzOZ5lVqfEatJ+URW+x1q6ZuaN9w5KBs2NmB38kTYWIX IAGqRzxGWBAB42HI0Bg9JZfV1rhB3EjryAzMXC4MhZXg7Ug4B2RMgyYGe9YAxGyl ysQbhDg1c26×2YR4eFQw3UHwf33jm+S3J1lJZ20AQ+Rme2drwhpXNg== =p9vx —–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

Response:

First off, some of you may recognize the name ptelesco. My wife is the author, Trish Telesco. I only make this known because i don’t want anyone thinking I am starting trouble. I just really need to ask the next few questions: 1- how many men and women here have taken to swinging the male dominated social pendulum too far the other way?

        Not much really. Just a experience from a few over enthusiastic Dianics once. I have seen and heard far too much about how viscous and evil men are from women who then turn right around and state that women are far less viscous. And this is right after condemning men for the fact they are men!

        Of course not. Remember the two wrongs thingy… And there are men who do the same thing. They feel the need to give into a collective guilt.

        Seen a few of those & pity them. 2- are there any other PEOPLE (note that I do not from this point on make a point of gender) who really just want to get away from bashing of any type?

        Sure, probably most of us would. I would like to know. Who amongst you wish to end ALL sexual repression. Drop it. No pointing fingers. No name calling. Just treat each person on their own merits.

        Raises hand, but is NOT optimistic about it. 3- Anyone up to it? Paul Telesco Note: I usually don’t hit this group. I find that going too far the opposite way in anything tends to turn one into what one wishes to avoid. Christians and Wiccans both have their fanatics. So do the races and sexes. Isn’t it time to simply stop? "…and then we all woke up back in Kansas…" UBFL1 Member (chuckle)68… just a little off of where I really wanna be…

Good luck on whatever project you are working on.         B*B                 Phoenix

Response:

1- how many men and women here have taken to swinging the male dominated social pendulum too far the other way?

I think we have a problem here largely because instead of a coherent cultural/actual position of male dominance as in the past, we have an interpersonal culture that is if anything female-dominant, contrasting with a badly lagged-behind actuality. So the feminists say "we’re not there yet" and the ordinary guy on the street looks at the culture (not the behind-the-scenes situation) and says "how much further do you want to go, anyway?". The trouble is: the media, one of the prime engines of culture, is strongly pro-feminist in the most part. Whereas, the "men in suits" are mostly old and hence mostly still patriarchal in outlook. …And there are men who do the same thing. They feel the need to give into a collective guilt.

It’s the gender-wars version of "the white man’s burden". 2- are there any other PEOPLE (note that I do not from this point on make a point of gender) who really just want to get away from bashing of any type?

Because of human biology (tribal territory instincts), "bashing" is inherent wherever people see an "us" and a "them". Seeing that way is caused by looking at the stereotype and ignoring the person. I would like to know. Who amongst you wish to end ALL sexual repression. Drop it. No pointing fingers. No name calling. Just treat each person on their own merits.

I try, but it’s hard; it’s the stereotypes you never look at and hence never see that are the hardest to release.

Response:

[snip] 1- how many men and women here have taken to swinging the male dominated social pendulum too far the other way? I have seen and heard far too much about how viscous and evil men are from women who then turn right around and state that women are far less viscous.

Women don’t flow as easily as men? Women are more solid? Okay, sorry. Can’t resist a spelling tweak: it should be "vicious". "Viscous" is a word referring to how easily a fluid or semifluid flows across a surface. 2- are there any other PEOPLE (note that I do not from this point on make a point of gender) who really just want to get away from bashing of any type? I would like to know. Who amongst you wish to end ALL sexual repression. Drop it. No pointing fingers. No name calling. Just treat each person on their own merits.

Moi. Not much else for me to say, really. I like men. Men are cool. Come to think of it, I spend most of my time around men. [snip] Rimrunner x chromosomes. yeah. got two, they’re small. — Murder of Crows: http://www.nwlink.com/~noah/ EP NOW AVAILABLE Force This!: http://www.shavenwookie.com/rimrun "Son of god or son of man, you can’t fuck your sister and expect much good to come of it." — Starr, "Preacher" —

Response:

First off, some of you may recognize the name ptelesco. My wife is the author, Trish Telesco. I only make this known because i don’t want anyone thinking I am starting trouble. I just really need to ask the next few questions: 1- how many men and women here have taken to swinging the male dominated social pendulum too far the other way? I have seen and heard far too much about how viscous and evil men are from women who then turn right around and state that women are far less viscous. And this is right after condemning men for the fact they are men! And there are men who do the same thing. They feel the need to give into a collective guilt. 2- are there any other PEOPLE (note that I do not from this point on make a point of gender) who really just want to get away from bashing of any type? I would like to know. Who amongst you wish to end ALL sexual repression. Drop it. No pointing fingers. No name calling. Just treat each person on their own merits. 3- Anyone up to it? Paul Telesco Note: I usually don’t hit this group. I find that going too far the opposite way in anything tends to turn one into what one wishes to avoid. Christians and Wiccans both have their fanatics. So do the races and sexes. Isn’t it time to simply stop? "…and then we all woke up back in Kansas…" UBFL1 Member (chuckle)68… just a little off of where I really wanna be…

Response:

Filed under: Feminist

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