important questions for the mormons

Question:

I don’t think Utah LDS are very much like LDS anywhere else. They seem to be far more insular. Around here (on the East Coast), other than occasional missionaries or commentaries, I don’t hear a whole lot about it.

This might be because only in Utah are Mormons the majority. Elsehwere in the world they are usually a very small minority and have to learn to get along. In Utah they know they’re in control. To a lesser extent this is also true in the "satellite" states of Idaho, Wyoming, and Arizona. Nevada is something of a free-for-all and even though Mormons have many members in California, the huge population and diversity there gives them very little influence.

Response:

Why do people continue to oppose the truth? Why do people continue to spread lies?

Rob asks: Yes, why do the G.A.’s continue to oppose the truth (i.e. the real LDS history)? Why does GBH continue to spread lies? Well I guess it’s okay to lie for the Lord since LDS do so many wonderful things. Who needs integrity and the 13th Article of Faith when you can compensate by doing good deeds.

Response:

I think you get this sort of thing in ALL religions. Some people get dressed up in their "Sunday" clothes and go to church every Sunday. They feel like they are doing "good". But that’s all they do. They don’t steadily read God’s Word and IMHO that leads to this Holier Than Thou attitude. They think they are Holy and the Most Righteous, but when it comes down to it – they are hypocrites and have no legitimate reasons why they are righteous. Why are you Holy and the Most Righteous? "Because I go to Church every Sunday." That’s the extent of their explanation. Everyone wants to be "good". I do. But you shouldn’t tell others they are not doing good for your own ego or pride. Pride is not a good thing. My church is right and yours is wrong. God doesn’t look at what church you go to, to determine if you are righteous! Fools! Like life, all churches have good and all churches have bad. I believe that religion is in the heart and your heart should be in the Kingdom of God. Not debating which church is right and which church is wrong because what you are really debating is your faith.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s a question I feel needs answered- Situation: LDS criticism of the True and Living Church in Manti, Utah. I have been in contact with TLC members looking for in the TLC and have been told of numerous incidents between LDS and TLC members. Mostly it’s nothing more than absolute rudeness, but in a few instances kids have gotten into fights and adults have ensued in verbal bashing. The reason? Because the LDS and TLC do not exactly share the same ideology. The TLC is very much alike the LDS from what I have foudn as they accept Jesus as their Savior, Joseph Smith is "the man", and they follow *most* of the teachings provided by JS and BY. With exception for the polygamy/bigamy issue of the 1890’s and the allowing colored people the priesthood in the 1970’s-1980’s. Otherwise they are very close together in belief. Yet it seem that LDS members have difficulty with this. My experience shows that LDS can and will be extremely rude to those of different faiths, *once it is noted that the people of different faiths will not consider the LDS or turn away from their own faith in favor of the LDS*. From my experience that would be in violation of the… ….11th Article of Faith- "We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, *and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where or what they may.*"… …. the 12th Article of Faith- "We beleive in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers and magistrates, in *obeying, honoring and sustaining the law*.", in relation to the First Amendment of the United States of America- "Congress shall make no law *respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof*; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; *or the right of the people peaceably to assemble*, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."… I could toss in the 13th AoF, but that’s a bit of overkill. The issue I have a problem here with, even if I am no longer mormon, is that the LDSmakes all these claims, then the members go about in deplorable beahvior towards others because of their religious beliefs. I know one of the most common "reasonings" given by LDS is that they "are only human and they can only try to be as Holy as Jesus and our prophet". To me that seems to be more of a lame excuse. I can understand one or even two instances, but not multiple instances. To see a wriong, use that excuse, and then *continue* doing that wrong, is an insult to the Church and to Jesus. And actually might be borderline on a hate crime in some states. So now I ask- why is this continued? Why is this inapporpriate behavior permitted by the LDS? Why is it the LDS cannot be cooperative and tolerant of another faith such as the TLC when they have been with most other Christian-based faiths AND the Muslim faith? By what reasoning does the LDS allow this to happen when they themselves were victims of the very same crimes in both distant and recent past? Why can’t the LDS accept the TLC as neighbors and leave the religious differences at the door and *just be friends*? And I ask that the respondants refrain from using the reasoning "we’re only human". I would appreciate actual answers. Please take not- I am not a member of, nor a follower of, the TLC faith. Carl — "Volunteer emergency personel are like toilet paper- no one realizes how

valuable they are until they’re needed." — Coalbunny – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

carved in granite… Here’s a question I feel needs answered- <Snip situation Andrew R.

Thank you for the reply Andrew. I’ll look it over a few times and let the reply ferment in my noggin for bit. It sounds far more reasonable than Chris Young’s reply. Again, thanks! Carl — "Volunteer emergency personel are like toilet paper- no one realizes how valuable they are until they’re needed." — Coalbunny —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think you get this sort of thing in ALL religions. Some people get dressed up in their "Sunday" clothes and go to church every Sunday. They feel like they are doing "good". But that’s all they do. They don’t steadily read God’s Word and IMHO that leads to this Holier Than Thou attitude. They think they are Holy and the Most Righteous, but when it comes down to it – they are hypocrites and have no legitimate reasons why they are righteous. Why are you Holy and the Most Righteous? "Because I go to Church every Sunday." That’s the extent of their explanation. Everyone wants to be "good". I do. But you shouldn’t tell others they are not doing good for your own ego or pride. Pride is not a good thing. My church is right and yours is wrong. God doesn’t look at what church you go to, to determine if you are righteous! Fools! Like life, all churches have good and all churches have bad. I believe that religion is in the heart and your heart should be in the Kingdom of God. Not debating which church is right and which church is wrong because what you are really debating is your faith.

(snippage has occurred) Thank you, but I believe I will continue keeping my heart in my chest. You are, however, reminding of the sign above my desk: "I have the heart of a kind and beautiful person. In a jar. On my desk." BK AA#1992

Response:

It doesn’t matter which church you choose. Question anything and everything with an honest heart and you shall find the truth. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Situation: LDS criticism of the True and Living Church in Manti, Utah. I have been in contact with TLC members looking for in the TLC and have been told of numerous incidents between LDS and TLC members. Mostly it’s nothing more than absolute rudeness, but in a few instances kids have gotten into fights and adults have ensued in verbal bashing. I left the LdS church because I accepted an invitation to listen to the missionary discussions presented by the TLC, and my mormon church leaders were so extremely ignorant and rude to me that I concluded that the LdS could not possibly be God’s true church, otherwise they wouldn’t exhibit so much bigotry and hatred towards me, JUST FOR DESIRING TO LISTEN to what the TLC have to say. The reason? Because the LDS and TLC do not exactly share the same ideology. The TLC is very much alike the LDS from what I have foudn as they accept Jesus as their Savior, Joseph Smith is "the man", and they follow *most* of the teachings provided by JS and BY. With exception for the polygamy/bigamy issue of the 1890’s and the allowing colored people the priesthood in the 1970’s-1980’s. Otherwise they are very close together in belief. Yet it seem that LDS members have difficulty with this. My experience is that the closer another church’s beliefs are to LdS, the more hatred the LdS show towards it. My experience shows that LDS can and will be extremely rude to those of different faiths, *once it is noted that the people of different faiths will not consider the LDS or turn away from their own faith in favor of the LDS*. I am treated much better by the LdS when I introduce myself as a (protestant) minister than when I introduce myself as a mormon fundamentalist. The issue I have a problem here with, even if I am no longer mormon, is that the LDSmakes all these claims, then the members go about in deplorable beahvior towards others because of their religious beliefs. That is exactly why I left the LdS church. We don’t practice what we preach. By what reasoning does the LDS allow this to happen when they themselves were victims of the very same crimes in both distant and recent past? Because the LdS have apostatized from the gospel of Jesus Christ. Why can’t the LDS accept the TLC as neighbors and leave the religious differences at the door and *just be friends*? Because the TLC might convert more LdS members and that would result in fewer tithing dollars for the LdS corporation. Please take not- I am not a member of, nor a follower of, the TLC faith. Neither am I. My world view tends to be closer to that of the TLC than of the LdS. It was so refreshing when I took the TLC missionary discussions that they were actually teaching the traditional mormonism that I had grown up with, and not the perverted, PR correlated, mormonism of the corporate church. Love, Absalom — Absalom’s Iconoclastic Collection http://www.absalom.com/mormon

Response:

It was East Coast LdS who drove me out of the church by being ignorant and rude because I wanted to listen to the missionary discussions preseted by the TLC. Love, Absalom — Absalom’s Iconoclastic Collection http://www.absalom.com/mormon

Response:

Lets have some evidence that this bad behaviour is actually happening.

Members of the LdS church were extremely rude and ignorant to me when I expressed a desire to listen to what the TLC church had to say. Love, Absalom — Absalom’s Iconoclastic Collection http://www.absalom.com/mormon

Response:

I live in the UK and, whilst we have some Polygamous break off groups,

It’s always struck me as rather arrogant to call them break off groups. We’d all be better served by talking about the Mormon Faiths, rather than the mormon church. Love, Absalom I would in general agree with you. However, for the most part TLC members are ex-LDS members. Many of them having taken our endowment ceremony for their own use. Some TLC have even been encouraged to join the LDS church so as to obtain our temple ordinances.

The TLC have their own endowment house. There would be no reason for a TLC member to receive perverted ordinances and garments from an LdS temple. Not having a Temple of their own, and accepting that our priesthood is, to a certain extent, intact.

The TLC believe that the LdS priesthood has been totally corrupted and that angels had to restore the priesthood to the TLC church. Some of the other mormon faiths recognize LdS priesthood ordinances. A possible problem is that LDS members are told to avoid fundementalist groups – there is a real fear that they will be sucked into them. We are not however told to avoid Baptists, Catholics and the like.

The Church Handbook of Instructions says that membership in another church should not be considered apostasy. Why is this inapporpriate behavior permitted by the LDS? In general I would say that it is not. However, how is an LDS leader to know that his members are doing this – unless they confess, or the person offended complains (about an individual by name).

I did plenty of complaining. It was more important to church leaders to sustain the hierarchy, even fascistly, than it was to treat me respectfully. The reasons are those I have given above – they have taken what we hold to be sacred and apostatised away from it.

It is LdS doctrine which changes with every whim of media pressure. Love, Absalom — Absalom’s Iconoclastic Collection http://www.absalom.com/mormon

Response:

Lets have some evidence that this bad behaviour is actually happening. I suspct this is one of the troll questions like "have you stopped beating your wife".

Christopher, it happens. Andrew R.

Response:

: Dear Coalbunny, : Here’s a question I feel needs answered. How about answering THIS question? Why do you feel the need to discuss your church in alt.atheism? Including a.a in your crossposting seems to me to be a bit out of line, since a discussion of morons and how they treat one of their splinters doesn’t really touch upon the subject of atheism at all. Of course, if you people would simply abandon superstition, we’d certainly welcome you (and you’d be better off).

Response:

Here’s a question I feel needs answered-

<snip So now I ask- why is this continued? Why is this inapporpriate behavior permitted by the LDS?

<snip You post to alt.atheism questions about what LDS permits? Flame bait.

Response:

Situation: LDS criticism of the True and Living Church in Manti, Utah. I have been in contact with TLC members looking for in the TLC and have been told of numerous incidents between LDS and TLC members. Mostly it’s nothing more than absolute rudeness, but in a few instances kids have gotten into fights and adults have ensued in verbal bashing.

I left the LdS church because I accepted an invitation to listen to the missionary discussions presented by the TLC, and my mormon church leaders were so extremely ignorant and rude to me that I concluded that the LdS could not possibly be God’s true church, otherwise they wouldn’t exhibit so much bigotry and hatred towards me, JUST FOR DESIRING TO LISTEN to what the TLC have to say. The reason? Because the LDS and TLC do not exactly share the same ideology. The TLC is very much alike the LDS from what I have foudn as they accept Jesus as their Savior, Joseph Smith is "the man", and they follow *most* of the teachings provided by JS and BY. With exception for the polygamy/bigamy issue of the 1890’s and the allowing colored people the priesthood in the 1970’s-1980’s. Otherwise they are very close together in belief. Yet it seem that LDS members have difficulty with this.

My experience is that the closer another church’s beliefs are to LdS, the more hatred the LdS show towards it. My experience shows that LDS can and will be extremely rude to those of different faiths, *once it is noted that the people of different faiths will not consider the LDS or turn away from their own faith in favor of the LDS*.

I am treated much better by the LdS when I introduce myself as a (protestant) minister than when I introduce myself as a mormon fundamentalist. The issue I have a problem here with, even if I am no longer mormon, is that the LDSmakes all these claims, then the members go about in deplorable beahvior towards others because of their religious beliefs.

That is exactly why I left the LdS church. We don’t practice what we preach. By what reasoning does the LDS allow this to happen when they themselves were victims of the very same crimes in both distant and recent past?

Because the LdS have apostatized from the gospel of Jesus Christ. Why can’t the LDS accept the TLC as neighbors and leave the religious differences at the door and *just be friends*?

Because the TLC might convert more LdS members and that would result in fewer tithing dollars for the LdS corporation. Please take not- I am not a member of, nor a follower of, the TLC faith.

Neither am I. My world view tends to be closer to that of the TLC than of the LdS. It was so refreshing when I took the TLC missionary discussions that they were actually teaching the traditional mormonism that I had grown up with, and not the perverted, PR correlated, mormonism of the corporate church. Love, Absalom — Absalom’s Iconoclastic Collection http://www.absalom.com/mormon

Response:

Here’s a question I feel needs answered-

<Snip situation My experience shows that LDS can and will be extremely rude to those of different faiths, *once it is noted that the people of different faiths will not consider the LDS or turn away from their own faith in favor of the LDS*.

Your experience is sad. It is difficult, being inside the LDS to have experiences that you have – though I generally do not know of them. I live in the UK and, whilst we have some Polygamous break off groups, I have never come in cantact with groups like the TLC. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From my experience that would be in violation of the… ….11th Article of Faith- "We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, *and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where or what they may.*"… …. the 12th Article of Faith- "We beleive in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers and magistrates, in *obeying, honoring and sustaining the law*.", in relation to the First Amendment of the United States of America- "Congress shall make no law *respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof*; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; *or the right of the people peaceably to assemble*, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."… I could toss in the 13th AoF, but that’s a bit of overkill.

I would in general agree with you. However, for the most part TLC members are ex-LDS members. Many of them having taken our endowment ceremony for their own use. Some TLC have even been encouraged to join the LDS church so as to obtain our temple ordinances. Not having a Temple of their own, and accepting that our priesthood is, to a certain extent, intact. This puts them in a different class from say, baptists or 7th day adventists. The issue I have a problem here with, even if I am no longer mormon, is that the LDSmakes all these claims, then the members go about in deplorable beahvior towards others because of their religious beliefs.

A possible problem is that LDS members are told to avoid fundementalist groups – there is a real fear that they will be sucked into them. We are not however told to avoid Baptists, Catholics and the like. I know one of the most common "reasonings" given by LDS is that they "are only human and they can only try to be as Holy as Jesus and our prophet". To me that seems to be more of a lame excuse. I can understand one or even two instances, but not multiple instances. To see a wriong, use that excuse, and then *continue* doing that wrong, is an insult to the Church and to Jesus. And actually might be borderline on a hate crime in some states.

Whilst you may not like it as a reason, it does stand a reason – if not the only reason. So now I ask- why is this continued? Why is this inapporpriate behavior permitted by the LDS?

In general I would say that it is not. However, how is an LDS leader to know that his members are doing this – unless they confess, or the person offended complains (about an individual by name). Why is it the LDS cannot be cooperative and tolerant of another faith such as the TLC when they have been with most other Christian-based faiths AND the Muslim faith?

The reasons are those I have given above – they have taken what we hold to be sacred and apostatised away from it. We do not consider those of other Christian, or non-Christian faiths to be in this position. By what reasoning does the LDS allow this to happen when they themselves were victims of the very same crimes in both distant and recent past?

LDS allow themselves (as individuals) to do lots of things they shouldn’t. I do not believe that this is general leadership sanctioned. Why can’t the LDS accept the TLC as neighbors and leave the religious differences at the door and *just be friends*?

The TLC, and LDS, have a vested interest in trying to "convert" the other. However, this turns into a "we’ve got the real priesthood/prophet/whatever. Such close differences do not occur between methodists and LDS. Andrew R.

Response:

Dear Coalbunny, Here’s a question I feel needs answered. The LDS church is well over 10 million members. We have the gospel of Jesus Christ, the saving and exalting ordainances. We have the priesthood. continuing revelation. The guidance of a prophet. The LDS church has many programs for the betterment of mankind. We do things like feeding hungry people, distributing surplus clothing, and drilling wells in africa. We teach chastity, charity, honesty, decency, and living a clean life, free of drugs, alcohol, harmful substances, and harmful drugs. LDS people are generally well mannered, and good neighbors. They are polite, and gentle and caring. LDS people give generously of their time to help the neighbors and community, including service projects, and just being neighborly. Why do people continue to oppose the truth? Why do people continue to spread lies? — Christopher A. Young Jesus: The Reason for the Season www.lds.org www.mormons.com

Here’s a question I feel needs answered-

Response:

snip I don’t think Utah LDS are very much like LDS anywhere else. They seem to be far more insular. Around here (on the East Coast), other than occasional missionaries or commentaries, I don’t hear a whole lot about it. — Regards, Lee the James, uM, feminist The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence–Thomas H. Huxley

Response:

Lets have some evidence that this bad behaviour is actually happening. I suspct this is one of the troll questions like "have you stopped beating your wife". — Christopher A. Young Jesus: The Reason for the Season www.lds.org www.mormons.com

Here’s a question I feel needs answered- Situation: LDS criticism of the True and Living Church in Manti, Utah. I have been in contact with TLC members looking for in the TLC and have been told of numerous incidents between LDS and TLC members. Mostly it’s nothing more than absolute rudeness, but in a few instances kids have gotten into fights and adults have ensued in verbal bashing. The reason? Because the LDS and TLC do not exactly share the same ideology. The TLC is very much alike the LDS from what I have foudn as they accept Jesus as their Savior, Joseph Smith is "the man", and they follow *most* of the teachings provided by JS and BY. With exception for the polygamy/bigamy issue of the 1890’s and the allowing colored people the priesthood in the 1970’s-1980’s. Otherwise they are very close together in belief. Yet it seem that LDS members have difficulty with this. My experience shows that LDS can and will be extremely rude to those of different faiths, *once it is noted that the people of different faiths will not consider the LDS or turn away from their own faith in favor of the LDS*. From my experience that would be in violation of the… ….11th Article of Faith- "We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, *and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where or what they may.*"… …. the 12th Article of Faith- "We beleive in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers and magistrates, in *obeying, honoring and sustaining the law*.", in relation to the First Amendment of the United States of America- "Congress shall make no law *respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof*; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; *or the right of the people peaceably to assemble*, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."… I could toss in the 13th AoF, but that’s a bit of overkill. The issue I have a problem here with, even if I am no longer mormon, is that the LDSmakes all these claims, then the members go about in deplorable beahvior towards others because of their religious beliefs. I know one of the most common "reasonings" given by LDS is that they "are only human and they can only try to be as Holy as Jesus and our prophet". To me that seems to be more of a lame excuse. I can understand one or even two instances, but not multiple instances. To see a wriong, use that excuse, and then *continue* doing that wrong, is an insult to the Church and to Jesus. And actually might be borderline on a hate crime in some states. So now I ask- why is this continued? Why is this inapporpriate behavior permitted by the LDS? Why is it the LDS cannot be cooperative and tolerant of another faith such as the TLC when they have been with most other Christian-based faiths AND the Muslim faith? By what reasoning does the LDS allow this to happen when they themselves were victims of the very same crimes in both distant and recent past? Why can’t the LDS accept the TLC as neighbors and leave the religious differences at the door and *just be friends*? And I ask that the respondants refrain from using the reasoning "we’re only human". I would appreciate actual answers. Please take not- I am not a member of, nor a follower of, the TLC faith. Carl — "Volunteer emergency personel are like toilet paper- no one realizes how valuable they are until they’re needed." — Coalbunny —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

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