Activism Change

Homosexuality in Wicca???

Question:

Is homosexuality acceptable in wicca?This applies to both women and men.What are your opions everyone???

At the Sacramento British Traditional Elders meeting this was discussed.  As a whole, there is no tenent against Gays and bisexuals in Brit/Trad Wicca.  It is a choice of each group in how they wish to deal with them. There are traditional Brit/Trad Wiccans who are Gay, bisexual and hetero. if you are any of this you need to search for the ones who are or who are tolerant.

Response:

Is homosexuality acceptable in wicca?This applies to both women and men.What are your opions everyone???

Response:

Is homosexuality acceptable in wicca?This applies to both women and men.What are your opions everyone???

"All acts of love and pleasure are my rituals"

Response:

Is homosexuality acceptable in wicca?This applies to both women and men.What are your opions everyone???

Every group that I have been in and still in (I’ve been in two groups, one club and a collective) has always been open to homosexuality.  I would never want to be in a religion that wasn’t.  To me, we are nature lovers and I believe homosexuality is biological and therefore part of nature, simple as that. Lara

Response:

In my experience, based in Chicago and the Wiccans here Like Donna Cole-Schults, CoG, and others:Wicca hates gays.

The last time we went over this, you’d actually admitted that perhaps you were painting with too broad a brush in attributing the behavior of Donna to all Wiccans, or even to just CoG.  I’m sorry to see that either your memory or your honesty have not endured. See, we do not fit the male-female energy types, we have no myths, we have no rites, we have nothing for gays in Wicca.  There are hundreds of ‘covens’ who deny gays enterance in their circles, who force gays to engage in heterosexual rites, who force the heterosexual standards on gay people.

Well, actually, there are far, far more groups that admit homosexual Wiccans than you’re caring to admit.  A number of them have so stated here, but you’ve seen fit to ignore that. I have heard that not every wiccan group does this; not every wiccan teaches this, yadyada, but in 20 years, I have not met a single wiccan with any knowledge or respect toward gay people.

We went over this last time as well. If you still believe what you write here, it is because you don’t want to acknowledge that there are any Wiccans with knowledge or respect towards gay people, not because we’re not out here. — Daniel B. Holzman — Love does not subtract, it multiplies. — All acts of love and pleasure are Her rituals. — An it Harm none, do what you Will. — They took my name and stole my heritage, but they didn’t get my goat. —  The word is all of us. — Remember the Twelth Commandment and keep it Wholly.

Response:

This has gone around the newsgroup umpteen times. Wicca is the same as other religions. There are people who are prejudiced everywhere. There are active people who have and do contribute to the Craft who are gay or lesbian -like (the late) Scott Cunningham or Amber K. The community has lots of queer role models. Michael Thorn Our Lady of the Seashore

Response:

Simply put: All acts of love and pleasure are of the Goddess.  At least in the Mid-Atlantic area, where I am active, there are a significant number of gay & lesbian Pagans, and they are fully integrated into the Pagan community. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is homosexuality acceptable in wicca?This applies to both women and men.What are your opions everyone???

Response:

: Is homosexuality acceptable in wicca?This applies to both women and : men.What are your opions everyone??? : In my experience, based in Chicago and the Wiccans here Like Donna : Cole-Schults, CoG, and others:Wicca hates gays. : See, we do not fit the male-female energy types, we have no myths, we : have no rites, we have nothing for gays in Wicca.  There are hundreds : of ‘covens’ who deny gays enterance in their circles, who force gays : to engage in heterosexual rites, who force the heterosexual standards : on gay people. : I have heard that not every wiccan group does this; not every wiccan : teaches this, yadyada, but in 20 years, I have not met a single wiccan : with any knowledge or respect toward gay people. : Save for the Radical Faeries and the gay ‘covens’, who happily allow : hets into their circles, there is little acceptence in wicca. : Of course individual oppinions will vary, as I hope they do. : Stop by my web site as I have several gay centered web sites, texts : and rituals for the gay person : http://www.tezcat.com/~mariposa : Mariposa : Ever the Sardonic Honey, ya gotta get out more! BB Marjorie

Response:

Is homosexuality acceptable in wicca?This applies to both women and men.What are your opions everyone???

In my experience, based in Chicago and the Wiccans here Like Donna Cole-Schults, CoG, and others:Wicca hates gays. See, we do not fit the male-female energy types, we have no myths, we have no rites, we have nothing for gays in Wicca.  There are hundreds of ‘covens’ who deny gays enterance in their circles, who force gays to engage in heterosexual rites, who force the heterosexual standards on gay people. I have heard that not every wiccan group does this; not every wiccan teaches this, yadyada, but in 20 years, I have not met a single wiccan with any knowledge or respect toward gay people. Save for the Radical Faeries and the gay ‘covens’, who happily allow hets into their circles, there is little acceptence in wicca. Of course individual oppinions will vary, as I hope they do. Stop by my web site as I have several gay centered web sites, texts and rituals for the gay person http://www.tezcat.com/~mariposa Mariposa Ever the Sardonic

Response:

Is homosexuality acceptable in wicca?This applies to both women and men.What are your opions everyone??? In my experience, based in Chicago and the Wiccans here Like Donna Cole-Schults, CoG, and others:Wicca hates gays.

Well, how does the Chicago area in general feel about gays? Most of the Wiccans/Witches/Pagans etc. that I know are bi. So obviously they dont dislike straight OR gay sexual expressions. But I am at school in "Lesbianville USA" and Im originally from a very liberal suburb of Boston. So it could just be the community in general. See, we do not fit the male-female energy types, we have no myths, we have no rites, we have nothing for gays in Wicca.  There are hundreds of ‘covens’ who deny gays enterance in their circles, who force gays to engage in heterosexual rites, who force the heterosexual standards on gay people.

Dude, you are hanging out with the wrong people. I have heard that not every wiccan group does this; not every wiccan teaches this, yadyada, but in 20 years, I have not met a single wiccan with any knowledge or respect toward gay people.

Ive never met a single person with a negative attitude towards gays who was a Wiccan. I havent even met a huge amount of non-Wiccan people who are against gays, but the ones I met were very loud and vocal about thier anti-gayness.

Response:

Is homosexuality acceptable in wicca?This applies to both women and men.What are your opions everyone???

        You never heard of the Dianic Feminist Tradition?         I believe there are a lot of gay-orientated covens in both genders.         Remember that Paganism draws on Greek roots as well as Celtic. That male homosexuality was accepted and openly practiced is well known.  I also seem to recall "Lesbian" being derived from a Greek island called "Lesbos".         My opinion?  I think more people should become gay.  It’s the best way to cut the birth rate.  I’m misanthropic and the thought of fewer humans in the future makes me happy.         Seriously, I can’t think of any reason why Wicca would discourage it.  Hell, I can’t think of any reason why Xtianity should discourage it either! * We are all free to do * whatever we want to do. *           (Richard Bach, _Illusions_ ) ~ I am the darkness between the stars, ~      I am the echo of the Void, ~         I am Night’s Shadow.

Response:

: Is homosexuality acceptable in wicca?This applies to both women and : men.What are your opions everyone??? : In my experience, based in Chicago and the Wiccans here Like Donna : Cole-Schults, CoG, and others:Wicca hates gays. : See, we do not fit the male-female energy types, we have no myths, we : have no rites, we have nothing for gays in Wicca.  There are hundreds : of ‘covens’ who deny gays enterance in their circles, who force gays : to engage in heterosexual rites, who force the heterosexual standards : on gay people. : I have heard that not every wiccan group does this; not every wiccan : teaches this, yadyada, but in 20 years, I have not met a single wiccan : with any knowledge or respect toward gay people. : Save for the Radical Faeries and the gay ‘covens’, who happily allow : hets into their circles, there is little acceptence in wicca. : Of course individual oppinions will vary, as I hope they do. Try the West Coast.  In LA, San Diego, San Francisco, Portland (and I’ve heard) in Seattle  almost all the covens are gay-friendly.  There are a lot of mostly gay covens.  3 of the 11 folks in the coven I trained in in LA were gay.  Honestly, its a non-issue for most groups out here.  There are some gay or lesbian only covens around (especially in San Fran) but most are mixed and I honestly have never heard of a straights-only coven on the West Coast (which is not to say they don’t exist, merely that they are probably quite rare). I’m very sad that your experience has been different, I think this may have more to do with regional differences in the US than with anything about Wicca.  

Response:

Is homosexuality acceptable in wicca?This applies to both women and men.What are your opions everyone???

This is an old ,old thread Jennifer, for me personaly Gender is not important, sexual inclination is not important, Whatever way we are made is fine, The only thing that realy gets up my nose, is child abuse, anything a consenting couple do is their own buisness. — The ‘Old Craft’ lady               http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/

Response:

Is homosexuality acceptable in wicca?This applies to both women and men.What are your opions everyone???

IMHO, there is no reason not to accept anyone anywhere at any time based on their sexual orientation.  Witches in particular are not usually interested in telling others how to live their personal lives.  I believe the Goddesses and Gods want us to be the fullness of whatever we are, "an it harm none."

Response:

The last time we went over this, you’d actually admitted that perhaps you were painting with too broad a brush in attributing the behavior of Donna to all Wiccans, or even to just CoG.  I’m sorry to see that either your memory or your honesty have not endured.

As I recall, I admitted to the fact that the new CoG reps and I have discussed the issue.  When Donna Cole ran CoG in the Midwest, by HER own words and action, sullied CoG. I’m sorry to inform you, but my honesty is just fine, it seesm your memory is a bit skewed. Well, actually, there are far, far more groups that admit homosexual Wiccans than you’re caring to admit.  A number of them have so stated here, but you’ve seen fit to ignore that.

As long as there is one coven denying the opportunity based on sexual preference, the battle continues.  See, it would be a lot easier, Dan, for you to understand if a group discriminated against some who was black or hispanic or asian, but its not o easy when it comes to sexuality.  You hold a double standard, Dan. We went over this last time as well.

And you still choose to listen to what you want to hear. If you still believe what you write here, it is because you don’t want to acknowledge that there are any Wiccans with knowledge or respect towards gay people, not because we’re not out here. —

Hardly that, if you read my post.  But, you do not because you have decided that you are my judge, jury and executioner.  Neither of which you are capable of doing.  No matter what I say or do, Dan, in your little corner of the world, you have decided that I am a witch hater, which you have said so publically or, atleast according to members of the PCA, have verbalized to other ‘wiccans’. So, don’t read my posts if you don’t liek what I say..which is interesting, because my posts seem to hit a nerve with you..hmm, some hidden issues perhaps? Mariposa Ever the Sardonic

Response:

However, tolerance is not the goal; acceptance is.  Until wicca acknowledges same sex uniuons of Deity, of same-sex eroticis rites and mysteries, Wicca is prejudiced.

Aren’t you telling other people how to conceive of Deity, here? Wicca is not homogenous or centrally organised. Generally, each coven is autonomous: the rules of one coven don’t constrain any other. And people see the Gods in their own way: if a group of people want to get together and work with only heterosexuality, there’s nothing wrong with that. If you want to work with gay sexuality, and you can’t find an existing group, why don’t you find some other like-minded Wiccans in Chicago and start your own coven? You have just as much right to as everyone else. — Ashley Branchfeather, Seattle WA

Response:

Is homosexuality acceptable in wicca?This applies to both women and men.What are your opions everyone???         You never heard of the Dianic Feminist Tradition?         I believe there are a lot of gay-orientated covens in both genders.         Remember that Paganism draws on Greek roots as well as Celtic. That male homosexuality was accepted and openly practiced is well known.  I also seem to recall "Lesbian" being derived from a Greek island called "Lesbos".

Lesbos, according to Diane Ackerman was the hometown of Sappho, "one of the most addroit and sensual lyric poets".    Also, according to Ackerman, homosexuality  (in both genders), bisexuality, and masturbation were common and tolerated among the Greeks.         My opinion?  I think more people should become gay.  It’s the best way to cut the birth rate.  I’m misanthropic and the thought of fewer humans in the future makes me happy.

*chuckle* sounds like the church of euthanasia. "save the world -kill yourself"         Seriously, I can’t think of any reason why Wicca would discourage it.  Hell, I can’t think of any reason why Xtianity should discourage it either!

   What reason do we have to attack anything "different"? We don’t. Both pagans and xtians can fear/hate what they do not understand. And where there’s fear, there’s power. — Knock on the sky and listen to the sound!

Response:

Well, how does the Chicago area in general feel about gays?

We are one of the few cities with an anti-gay discrimination act that is enforced. Most of the Wiccans/Witches/Pagans etc. that I know are bi. So obviously they dont dislike straight OR gay sexual expressions. But I am at school in "Lesbianville USA" and Im originally from a very liberal suburb of Boston. So it could just be the community in general. gay people. Dude, you are hanging out with the wrong people.

I do not hang out with them.  They cross my paths when a gay person comes to them to learn about wicca and get told that there sexuality is unimportant and not special.  Then, they have me to deal with, which most people don’t like because I prove them wrong on most counts such as no gay deities, no historic or archeological or anthropological rites for the same sex erotic. Sometimes the reall enemy is the one that is not seen.  Anti-gay bias can be loud and it can be subtle.  I know of several covens where homosexuality is not even discussed or aloud to be discussed in any way shape or form. Discrimiation is not always in White hoods and swasticas.. MAriposa Ever the gay activist

Response:

In my experience, based in Chicago and the Wiccans here Like Donna Cole-Schults, CoG, and others:Wicca hates gays. I have heard that not every wiccan group does this; not every wiccan teaches this, yadyada, but in 20 years, I have not met a single wiccan with any knowledge or respect toward gay people.

Well then HI THERE! I am a straight Male WICCAN who accepts people based on who they are not what they are. I have a good many Gay/Lesbian friends who are pagans and wiccans and accept them as equals as is their right. I am sorry that you have met with others who aren’t like that. Save for the Radical Faeries and the gay ‘covens’, who happily allow hets into their circles, there is little acceptence in wicca. Of course individual oppinions will vary, as I hope they do.

Down here in Texas (Dallas) we have quite a few Covens that accept people based on their willingness to learn not their sexual orientation. Now I’m not going to say that everyone down here is open and tolerant, I know better then that, however I would like to think that there are more open people then closed minded ones. MAStop by my web site as I have several gay centered web sites, texts MAand rituals for the gay person MAhttp://www.tezcat.com/~mariposa If Barefactsbbs.com isn’t on your list, then please add it, it is not only a Gay run and owned web site that supports the gay community here in the metroplex, but it is also a Pagan Site. Mariposa Ever the Sardonic

Aldric

Response:

Is homosexuality acceptable in wicca?This applies to both women and men.What are your opions everyone??? In my experience, based in Chicago and the Wiccans here Like Donna Cole-Schults, CoG, and others:Wicca hates gays.

<snip How very odd.  My experience, based in the hinterlands of Florida, has been quite different.  My significant other and I have been accepted and perhaps even valued as members of the Wiccan community here for a number of years.  We have participated in public and private ritual, taught classes and generally assisted as well as time and energy permit in the doings of the community without hearing a breath of criticism of our private life.  This is not to suggest we have not been subjected to criticism – I don’t believe any active Wiccan can get through life without offending *somebody* in the Craft – merely that all criticism has been directed at what we were doing not at who we are. Furthermore, the Wiccans I have met via the ‘Net have been warm and accepting, and welcomed our assistance on any projects to which we volunteered our energies.  In neither our local community nor the more cosmopolitan Internet community have I ever hidden our sexualities:  we are who we are and I like to think we have been made welcome because of that and not in spite of it. This has, in fact, also been our experience when we have visited towns and states other than our own. I have heard that not every Wiccan community is so open and accepting, yadda yadda, but I’ve never run into it personally – at least not to my face, and what is said behind my back is not my problem. My experience of Wicca, therefore, leads me to believe that Mariposa’s problems are more with Chicago than with Wicca. Blessed be, Baird

Response:

: I’ve heard this many times actually.  AS I’ve said to Marjorie, I do : not travel much, so I do not really know how other gay people fare; : although, I did receive about 20+ notes from across  america about : covens kicking them out because of their sexuality. Unfortunately, I *have* run across people *and* covens who *must* have gender balance etc. in order to work properly. This one coven *was* homophobic in a strange sort of way. Still is, I think. But in my years, the only people I’ve ever seen booted out of a group for sexual problems were because they used the group as a hunting ground. Straight or not, this is *not* good. And I later heard some of these people (gays, lesbians, and one S/M) complain that they had been asked to leave due to their preference. Unfortunately, I also knew that the reason was that they had been hunting and would not take a polite no for an answer. Still, we are Goddess, we are God. If we don’t find what we seek inside us, we will never find it without! BB Marjorie

Response:

      My opinion?  I think more people should become gay.  It’s the best way to cut the birth rate.  I’m misanthropic and the thought of fewer humans in the future makes me happy.

Hmmm… close to my line of thought… I personally think it is natures way of cutting down the birth rate.  I won’t be the father of any children because, IMHO, my genes command me not to.  (Selfish gene theory and altruism can mix *giggle*)  And, if it is all of natures work, then, to me, it is the work of the Lord and Lady! Blessed be. — Dale                      (IRC nicks: Manawydan or Niblet) Wirral, UK           http://www.manawydn.demon.co.uk/dale/ And remember….. Life is like being allergic to that damn bowl of cherries!

Response:

Well, actually, there are far, far more groups that admit homosexual Wiccans than you’re caring to admit.  A number of them have so stated here, but you’ve seen fit to ignore that. As long as there is one coven denying the opportunity based on sexual preference, the battle continues.  See, it would be a lot easier, Dan, for you to understand if a group discriminated against some who was black or hispanic or asian, but its not o easy when it comes to sexuality.  You hold a double standard, Dan.

Let me make sure I’m understanding you correctly. You’re claiming that so long as one coven — an autonomous group, answering to no higher authority save the Great Ones — does something wrong, it’s correct to claim that every autonomous group engages in that behavior, whether or not they actually do?  And that all Wiccans are responsible for the behavior of all covens, regardless of their own involvement with the group in question? I’m really unclear what you think I’d be able to do about a coven that discriminated against blacks, hispanics, or asians.  I suppose I could tell them I disapprove, but covens are notorious for not really giving a shit if non-members disapprove of what they do.  The Covens that I’ve been in myself didn’t have any problem with homosexuality — the coven I trained in was led by a Lesbian couple, and I was initiated by a gay man when he hived off from them, and sexual orientation hasn’t been a criteria for coven admittance anywhere in the 10 years I’ve been involved with this bunch. Hardly that, if you read my post.  But, you do not because you have decided that you are my judge, jury and executioner.  Neither of which you are capable of doing.  No matter what I say or do, Dan, in your little corner of the world, you have decided that I am a witch hater, which you have said so publically or, atleast according to members of the PCA, have verbalized to other ‘wiccans’.

The PCA? So, don’t read my posts if you don’t liek what I say..which is interesting, because my posts seem to hit a nerve with you..hmm, some hidden issues perhaps?

No, I’ve a rather open and upfront issue about people spouting bullshit when they should know better.  Since you’re spouting bullshit and should know better, that means I’m going to challenge you on your errors of fact. It is an error of fact that CoG discriminates against Gays.  You have decided that one member of CoG gets to make policy for them, but that’s really not your decision to make. It is an error of fact that there are no Wiccans in Chicago who are openly accepting of Gays as full equal members.  Heck, the last coven I was in had no *heterosexual* members, it had a Lesbian couple, a Gay man, a Bisexual woman, and a Bisexual couple. It is an error of fact that you have met no Wiccans in Chicago who have no problems Gays in Wicca.  If you wish to exclude Chicago Wiccans you’ve met online, then let’s set a time and place and meet!  I’m available tonight, Thursday, and possibly Friday this week. It also amazes me how many people here post that they’ve no problem whatsoever with the notion of Gay Wiccans every time that this comes up, even simply quoting "All acts of love and pleasure are my rituals," and figuring that that settles it, and don’t get disputed on the point, and you STILL think that they’re not there.  Are you even reading them? — Daniel B. Holzman — Love does not subtract, it multiplies. — All acts of love and pleasure are Her rituals. — An it Harm none, do what you Will. — They took my name and stole my heritage, but they didn’t get my goat. —  The word is all of us. — Remember the Twelth Commandment and keep it Wholly.

Response:

I do not hang out with them.  They cross my paths when a gay person comes to them to learn about wicca and get told that there sexuality is unimportant and not special.  

Then, they have me to deal with, which most people don’t like because I prove them wrong on most counts such as no gay deities, no historic or archeological or anthropological rites for the same sex erotic.

So you’re doing the right thing, providing resources and networking for the gay pagan community. If all the gay pagans did that, and hooked up, and organized, everything would be ok! -Nicole

Response:

It also amazes me how many people here post that they’ve no problem whatsoever with the notion of Gay Wiccans every time that this comes up, even simply quoting "All acts of love and pleasure are my rituals," and figuring that that settles it, and don’t get disputed on the point, and you STILL think that they’re not there.  Are you even reading them? —

Words.  No m ore  no less, have no form or action.  What do they do? Do they even know of a gay deity?  A gay story? Do your teachers even know of one? Three questions, Mariposa’s Infamous acceptance test: 1)Name an Irish hero and that hero’s lover whom is killed.  (there is only one answer) 2)In Greek Religion, who blessed male same sex unions, who blessed female same-sex unions? 3)What Native American tribe has only one creation story and that story is that two woman lovers created the universe: one absolutely ugly, the other absolutely beautiful. To date, no one who has accepted this challenge has passed all three, I have found some unique answers and some I did not even know of, but no one has answered all three. No, there is no reward.  And, there are answers to each and everyone that can be found with very little effort. As to your meeting on thursday: I have invited you to my gay storytelling night, invited you tothe CHicago Land Gay pagans meeting several times, and you’ve come to none. Thursday I am not available.  Friday I go on a well deserved vacation. Mariposa Ever the sardonic PS: It would be interesting to meet, but, contrary to what anyone has told you about me, 1) i do not hate women  2) I do not seek to destroy wicca 3) I am not a cannibal.

Response:

Filed under: Feminist

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