Activism Change

"Submit Gracefully"

Question:

One of the books I recommend every Pagan and Wiccan should read is "The Art of War". While written for military commanders of his time, the wisdom it contains easily applies to every day situations and still holds true for warfare today. I’ve been looking for that book in every bookshop in Coventry but can’t seem to find it.  I check military, history, new (*shudder*) age and even religion.  Any clues from anyone?

Check again. Also check business. It’s written by Sun Tzu, and has become recommended reading in many fields. It’s been adapted to apply to businesses (sorry, I don’t know who by), and I’ve seen it in every bookstore in which I’ve looked for it. Including UK and US and Canada. Also subtitled "The Book of Five Rings" (if I recall correctly), it was written several centuries ago — so you may not be able to find it in some author listings under Sun Tzu, but rather by translator. —   Bob           One good thing about being wrong is the joy it brings to others

Response:

Im with you too! as a 20/female i will be held down like that by no one! I do as i wish and my husband agrees also, we shouldnt be there slaves, barefoot and pregnet what the hell is this the "OLD" days. pssh

MIDNIGHT

Response:

    What I hated hearing was when the same group insisted that being Jewish was an ethnicity not a religion, I bet you were pissed off when you heard that bowl o’ crap.

Pretty much.  There are Jews who don’t believe in God, but believe in the humanistic values and preserving the culture.  They’re called Humanistic Jews, but they’re staunchly athiestic in their view. The ones that really get me are the assholes who say we’re a seperate race.<Snort  The last time I checked my family might be dysfunctional but human Penny — |Owner and CEO of the Incubus Club |Suave Sister Temptress |SISTAH Penny Dreadful of the FAMILY |Thrall of the Muses Angel and Marcus To learn is survival; to teach, a blessing.

Response:

Uh, I *like* high heels and nylons (well sometimes anyway).  I really do like makeup.  I like doing my hair once in a while too. I also can’t abide the feeling of my legs when they haven’t been shaved (though I admit to not doing that as often as I probably should) and I absolutely, positively won’t go around smelling musty.   I won’t be controlled by this sort of "women’s" thing any more than I will be controlled by men. Loki – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sisters!  Let us unfurl our attitudes like flags and wave them proudly!  Let us put on our FU** YOU boots and walk proudly as models for the meek and mild women put on by the patriarchal bozos of the world!  Let us High Five one another in the street and flood the air with "You go, girl!".  Let us put on our shoes, get out of the kitchen and into the nearest drive thru window, but only if the chicken they serve is free range and the cows are not mad!  Let us refuse to shave our pits and legs and refuse to mask our womanly scents with perfumes and deoderants!  Let us, as the REAL holders of power, begin to cull the men…and cultivate only the good ones, or at least the ones that like hairy, musty women!  Let us denounce high heels and panty hose….the evil creations of women haters!  Let us all join in one sisterhood and demand our due! Let us get real…Sheesh! Odd  http://members.aol.com/Oddnpotnt/index.html ——Dance, Puppets! Dance! Down with "More Pagan than Thou" Types! Up with Pagans that do the funky chicken randomly for no reason! Profanity is the crutch of the inarticulate motherfucker.

Response:

Uh, I *like* high heels and nylons (well sometimes anyway).  I really do<BR like makeup.  I like doing my hair once in a while too.<BR <BR I also can’t abide the feeling of my legs when they haven’t been shaved<BR

LOL……It was a joke.  I was waiting for the die hard femminists to say something and when they didn’t …….well, I got a little silly. ) Odd  http://members.aol.com/Oddnpotnt/index.html ——Dance, Puppets! Dance! Down with "More Pagan than Thou" Types! Up with Pagans that do the funky chicken randomly for no reason! Profanity is the crutch of the inarticulate motherfucker.

Response:

<snip Let us denounce high heels and panty hose….the evil creations of women haters!  Let us all join in one sisterhood and demand our due! Let us get real…Sheesh!

*thinks* Hmm, denouncing the heels is a good thing though….isn’t it??? */thinks* Catherine   Seasoned LRPer, hopeful V:TM player/GM and consumer of fine home brew mead           Sometimes I dispair that people don’t understand the                   concept – "It’s only a game!"        

Response:

Thank you. One of the books I recommend every Pagan and Wiccan should read is "The Art of War". While written for military commanders of his time, the wisdom it contains easily applies to every day situations and still holds true for warfare today.

In my–now boxed in storage–collections, I have a copy of Sun-Tzu’s writings with the Chinese ideograms on the left page and the English translation on the right, that was given to me by a scholar in China. I trust this translation more than many I’ve seen in this country (USA). Terry

Response:

Chinese General TSung-TSzu wrote  "Know your enemy as you know yourself and victory will be yours." Those words were written over 2500 years ago and they still hold true today. If you know you are going to go up against an opponent, adversary, or an enemy. It is  best to know not only what they think but why as well. It tells you what direction they are going to go. The Southern Baptists have, for the most part, always been at the forefront of bullheaded stubbornness and ultra Christian conservatism (take a look at the number of KKK members who are/were Southern Baptists – this ain’t something new folks. It has been going on for some time). But there is a reason for their’s and other extremist groups. Robert Hienlien sum it up best. "….that all of the trouble they are in is of their own doing is one they can’t or won’t entertain." One of the most basic tenants of Wicca and most Neo-Pagans is ‘responsibility for ones actions’. Self honesty is the key. We can’t get away with a statement like ‘The Devil made me do it.’ If we do something wrong, we don’t have someone to blame it on other than ourselves. The one thing all extremist groups seem to have in common is a ’scapegoat’ for all of their problems. They can’t admit they have screwed up their own lives and they are looking for someone to blame it on and any minority group is going to be a convenient target. The reason being that the smaller the group, the less likely people are going to give a rip if something happens to that group. When one is frightened of the truth . . . then it is never the whole truth that one has an inkling of.  – Ludwig Wittgenstein (1889-1951)     Austrian philosopher. Notebooks 1914-1916 (ed. by Anscombe, 1961), entry for 15 Oct. 1914. Tony Veca

Response:

That’s always been there.  According to some denominations of xtianity, we Jews need to be converted if Jesus is to come back.  That’s why the SBs fund groups like Jews for Jesus (who aren’t really Jews.  For some reason most Christians don’t understand that the simple act of accepting Jesus as savior yada yada, is apostacy and heracy by Jewish standards) You can get away with a heck of a lot of other stuff, like thinking of God in both male and female terms, working with magickal systems etc, but the moment you pass that inflexible immovable wall between Judaism and Christianity, you’re gone from the faith. Penny

    What I hated hearing was when the same group insisted that being Jewish was an ethnicity not a religion, I bet you were pissed off when you heard that bowl o’ crap. -Tlalocelotl Tlatoani

Response:

Chinese General TSung-TSzu wrote  "Know your enemy as you know yourself and victory will be yours." snip

Nice post. Thank you. Terry

Response:

Chinese General TSung-TSzu wrote  "Know your enemy as you know yourself and victory will be yours." snip Nice post. Thank you. Terry

Thank you. One of the books I recommend every Pagan and Wiccan should read is "The Art of War". While written for military commanders of his time, the wisdom it contains easily applies to every day situations and still holds true for warfare today. When one is frightened of the truth . . . then it is never the whole truth that one has an inkling of.  – Ludwig Wittgenstein (1889-1951)     Austrian philosopher. Notebooks 1914-1916 (ed. by Anscombe, 1961), entry for 15 Oct. 1914. Tony Veca

Response:

We should get a goal!  one-half thousand PAGANS by 2000!

What’s that then?  One-half thousand pagans each?  Or maybe we could go for a thousand halved Southern Baptists by the years 2000…  heat up them swords         What makes me wonder about stuff like this, why do the women put up with it?  Can’t they see they’re getting the shitty end of the stick?   Does this not register with them?  Hello?  Hello?  Duh!         Love and blessings,                 Dr Zip.                  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/5244/                            telnet://talker.com:5002                     "The meek shall inherit the earth…"                       "To the rest, belong the stars."

Response:

One of the books I recommend every Pagan and Wiccan should read is "The Art of War". While written for military commanders of his time, the wisdom it contains easily applies to every day situations and still holds true for warfare today.

I’ve been looking for that book in every bookshop in Coventry but can’t seem to find it.  I check military, history, new (*shudder*) age and even religion.  Any clues from anyone?         Love and blessings,                 Dr Zip.                  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/5244/                            telnet://talker.com:5002                     "The meek shall inherit the earth…"                       "To the rest, belong the stars."

Response:

So what are people’s reactions to this new policy by the Southern Baptists?

Same as when most religions try to get into politics…GET A LIFE AND STAY OUTA MINE!  *sigh*…then again that’s generally my responce to politics in general… Personally I think it’s great advertising for *us*. The more conservative the SB’s become, the greater the backlash, which means the more people are going to leave the SBs for Angicanism, Methodism, Catholicism, Atheism and Paganism. On the other hand it puts contemporary paganism (which tends to be socially very liberal) more at odds with the teachings of Baptists.

All religions are always at odds with another religion no matter how distastful it might be…as long as we’re not trying to convert just try to ignore the ppl who try on you… Something else: The Baptists are starting to evangelize again, and they have set a goal of one-half million baptisms by 2000.

We should get a goal!  one-half thousand PAGANS by 2000!                                                         Death Lynx http://www.vu.union.edu/~naumesj/ "Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat." -Anon

Response:

Well I don’t know about the hairy musty part but you have my support for the rest of it =^_^= Sisters!  Let us unfurl our attitudes like flags and wave them proudly!

[snip]

Response:

I also read that in addition to the big evangelizing goal, that the S.B’are targeting Jews. Apparently this has sent the Jewish communities around the country into a counter campaign against the S.B’s. If the S.B’s dare to target a group as large as the Jewish community, who’s to say that they won’t go for a zealous attack on the Pagan community? I don’t know what to think…I guess it is a wait-and-see kind of thing.  What do all of you think about it?  Alecto

That’s always been there.  According to some denominations of xtianity, we Jews need to be converted if Jesus is to come back.  That’s why the SBs fund groups like Jews for Jesus (who aren’t really Jews.  For some reason most Christians don’t understand that the simple act of accepting Jesus as savior yada yada, is apostacy and heracy by Jewish standards) You can get away with a heck of a lot of other stuff, like thinking of God in both male and female terms, working with magickal systems etc, but the moment you pass that inflexible immovable wall between Judaism and Christianity, you’re gone from the faith. Penny — |Owner and CEO of the Incubus Club |Suave Sister Temptress |SISTAH Penny Dreadful of the FAMILY |Thrall of the Muses Angel and Marcus To learn is survival; to teach, a blessing.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So what are people’s reactions to this new policy by the Southern Baptists? For those who don’t know: the SB convention in Salt Lake City today voted in a new teaching, that wives should be obedient and "sumbit gracefully" to their husbands. They consider this a solution to some of America’s social problems. Personally I think it’s great advertising for *us*. The more conservative the SB’s become, the greater the backlash, which means the more people are going to leave the SBs for Angicanism, Methodism, Catholicism, Atheism and Paganism. On the other hand it puts contemporary paganism (which tends to be socially very liberal) more at odds with the teachings of Baptists. Something else: The Baptists are starting to evangelize again, and they have set a goal of one-half million baptisms by 2000. — Blessed Be,         Michael Smith For reliable information on paganism, magick and witchcraft, start with The Witches’ Voice: http://www.witchvox.com/ Save Witches’ Brew! http://www.witchs-brew.com/letter.html Save the Internet! Kill The Cybersitter! http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5341/freedom.html

A point to ponder,is this 1998 or 1698, I think some people have to figure that one out first. The S.B. have regressed again and can’t get reality,help!!                                 Wolf.

Response:

(snippage) : Personally I think it’s great advertising for *us*. The more conservative : the SB’s become, the greater the backlash, which means the more people are : going to leave the SBs for Angicanism, Methodism, Catholicism, Atheism and : Paganism. On the other hand it puts contemporary paganism (which tends to : be socially very liberal) more at odds with the teachings of Baptists. : Something else: The Baptists are starting to evangelize again, and they : have set a goal of one-half million baptisms by 2000. Please keep in mind that there are other flavors of Baptists other than the (IMHO rather loud and obnoxious) southern Baptists–many of which are reasonable and intelligent individuals. Rebecca northern Baptist (one wonders about those poor Baptists who are stuck right in the middle of the U.S.–are they middle-of-the-road Baptists?)

Response:

So what are people’s reactions to this new policy by the Southern Baptists? For those who don’t know: the SB convention in Salt Lake City today voted in a new teaching, that wives should be obedient and "sumbit gracefully" to their husbands. They consider this a solution to some of America’s social problems. Personally I think it’s great advertising for *us*. The more conservative the SB’s become, the greater the backlash, which means the more people are going to leave the SBs for Angicanism, Methodism, Catholicism, Atheism and Paganism. On the other hand it puts contemporary paganism (which tends to be socially very liberal) more at odds with the teachings of Baptists. Something else: The Baptists are starting to evangelize again, and they have set a goal of one-half million baptisms by 2000. — Blessed Be,         Michael Smith For reliable information on paganism, magick and witchcraft, start with The Witches’ Voice: http://www.witchvox.com/ Save Witches’ Brew! http://www.witchs-brew.com/letter.html Save the Internet! Kill The Cybersitter! http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5341/freedom.html

Response:

For those who don’t know: the SB convention in Salt Lake City today voted in a new teaching, that wives should be obedient and "sumbit gracefully" to their husbands. They consider this a solution to some of America’s social problems.

I just saw this on CNN, and it confused me. I guess I was confusing Soutern Baptists with the evangelical "Bible-Believing" Christians led by James Dobson, the Promise Keepers, et.al. I thought *all* of those groups already taught that the man is the head of the household and has the final word. (They also talk about the responsibilities the man has to be a good leader and not a dictator, but I don’t think this will make non-evangelical women any more inclined to like this model!) The actual phrase "submit to your husbands" comes from Paul, I believe from first Corinthians. Anyway, none of these groups has ever embraced the "cover your heads" and "women don’t speak in church" teachings. I always wondered how they reconciled their "picking and choosing" from Paul’s guidelines. Holiday – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Personally I think it’s great advertising for *us*. The more conservative the SB’s become, the greater the backlash, which means the more people are going to leave the SBs for Angicanism, Methodism, Catholicism, Atheism and Paganism. On the other hand it puts contemporary paganism (which tends to be socially very liberal) more at odds with the teachings of Baptists. Something else: The Baptists are starting to evangelize again, and they have set a goal of one-half million baptisms by 2000. — Blessed Be,    Michael Smith For reliable information on paganism, magick and witchcraft, start with The Witches’ Voice: http://www.witchvox.com/ Save Witches’ Brew! http://www.witchs-brew.com/letter.html Save the Internet! Kill The Cybersitter! http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5341/freedom.html

Response:

Paganism couldn’t *be* any more at odds with SB teachings.  Everything we believe and/or practice is everything they abhor.  Even the most mundane act, if it’s committed by a pagan, will be construed as "satanic" or "evil" by an SB (sorry, being a former SB, I tend to be a little bitter).  Well, people will either buy these teachings, or as you said, leave the SBs.  From personal experience, I find that SBs more than any other xian denomination tend to be very hypocritical.  Let them evangelize!  I give not a rat’s ass for them or their silliness. Goddess Bless, Thorn the Visigoth – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So what are people’s reactions to this new policy by the Southern Baptists?

Response:

Sisters!  Let us unfurl our attitudes like flags and wave them proudly!  Let us put on our FU** YOU boots and walk proudly as models for the meek and mild women put on by the patriarchal bozos of the world!  Let us High Five one another in the street and flood the air with "You go, girl!".  Let us put on our shoes, get out of the kitchen and into the nearest drive thru window, but only if the chicken they serve is free range and the cows are not mad!  Let us refuse to shave our pits and legs and refuse to mask our womanly scents with perfumes and deoderants!  Let us, as the REAL holders of power, begin to cull the men…and cultivate only the good ones, or at least the ones that like hairy, musty women!  Let us denounce high heels and panty hose….the evil creations of women haters!  Let us all join in one sisterhood and demand our due! Let us get real…Sheesh! Odd  http://members.aol.com/Oddnpotnt/index.html ——Dance, Puppets! Dance! Down with "More Pagan than Thou" Types! Up with Pagans that do the funky chicken randomly for no reason! Profanity is the crutch of the inarticulate motherfucker.

Response:

I just read about this in the news a few minutes ago. This is a group with 15 million members and frankly, it worries me a bit. Instead of backlashing into other faiths, I think that perhaps it might just take off…sorta like the Promisekeepers did. I also read that in addition to the big evangelizing goal, that the S.B’are targeting Jews. Apparently this has sent the Jewish communities around the country into a counter campaign against the S.B’s. If the S.B’s dare to target a group as large as the Jewish community, who’s to say that they won’t go for a zealous attack on the Pagan community? I don’t know what to think…I guess it is a wait-and-see kind of thing.  What do all of you think about it?  Alecto – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So what are people’s reactions to this new policy by the Southern Baptists? For those who don’t know: the SB convention in Salt Lake City today voted in a new teaching, that wives should be obedient and "sumbit gracefully" to their husbands. They consider this a solution to some of America’s social problems. Personally I think it’s great advertising for *us*. The more conservative the SB’s become, the greater the backlash, which means the more people are going to leave the SBs for Angicanism, Methodism, Catholicism, Atheism and Paganism. On the other hand it puts contemporary paganism (which tends to be socially very liberal) more at odds with the teachings of Baptists. Something else: The Baptists are starting to evangelize again, and they have set a goal of one-half million baptisms by 2000. — Blessed Be,         Michael Smith For reliable information on paganism, magick and witchcraft, start with The Witches’ Voice: http://www.witchvox.com/ Save Witches’ Brew! http://www.witchs-brew.com/letter.html Save the Internet! Kill The Cybersitter! http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5341/freedom.html

Response:

So what are people’s reactions to this new policy by the Southern Baptists? For those who don’t know: the SB convention in Salt Lake City today voted in a new teaching, that wives should be obedient and "sumbit gracefully" to their husbands. They consider this a solution to some of America’s social problems.

Ohhhhhhhh noooooo…. What worries me, really, is that these movements don’t get off the ground without the involvement of WOMEN. It is a perpetual problem of feminism that so much of the social conditioning a lot of us dislike, is actually passed on by WOMEN, for whatever reason… arghghghgh… Personally I think it’s great advertising for *us*.

Hate to say it, but for us, too! "Obey" isn’t even IN the catholic marriage service anymore, unless someone ASKS for it!  ;} The more conservative the SB’s become, the greater the backlash, which means the more people are going to leave the SBs for Angicanism, Methodism, Catholicism, Atheism and Paganism.

You DO know how many people, on all sides of this, are just going to HATE that little list, don’t you?  Hate the fact that "they" are included in it, "they" being defined as whichever group the individual in question dislikes most?  ;) [] — janet Time bears away all things, even the mind….                 Virgil

Response:

Sisters!  Let us unfurl our attitudes like flags and wave them proudly!  Let us put on our FU** YOU boots and walk proudly as models for the meek and mild women put on by the patriarchal bozos of the world!  Let us High Five one another in the street and flood the air with "You go, girl!".  Let us put on our shoes, get out of the kitchen and into the nearest drive thru window, but

I demand forty eight hours notice, so I can hobble my way out of town…Please. Getting old is seeing a bunch of young good looking women coming at you and getting run over by them. ~~!B)

Response:

Filed under: Feminism

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