New Zealand: Sly DNA tests show 1 in 3 dads duped
Question:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hardpan wrote: > On 13 Feb 2005 20:42:41 -0800, "Gray Loser" <gray_lo…@hotmail.com> > wrote: >>Hardpan wrote: >>>Here in the US, the figure most accepted is that 10 to 20% of >>children >>>are born to fathers that are not biologically the genetic donors. >>So who accepts this figure? Since you say it is accepted, there must >>be someone who is doing the accepting. >>Is this figure published in academic papers? >>I await your… >>(a) rant accusing me of sycophantic feminism >>(b) unintelligible flame > The labs in the USA that do genetic testing for paternity suits are > who came up with these figures.
That makes no sense. You wouldn’t be able to extrapolate to the general population for the same reason. The data is probably out there to be be found in more representative samples if one wishes to look for it but it’s not going to come from labs that do paternity testing. > If you don’t like seeing the ugly truth of the matter, that attached > women make babies while fucking strangers and try to trick their > husbands or boyfriends into believing that the child conceived is > theirs, then that’s too bad for you.
August Pamplona — The waterfall in Java is not wet. – omegazero2003 on m.f.w. a.a. # 1811 apatriot #20 Eater of smut Proud member of the reality-based community. The address in this message’s ‘From’ field, in accordance with individual.net’s TOS, is real. However, almost all messages reaching this address are deleted without human intervention. In other words, if you e-mail me there, I will not receive your message. To make sure that e-mail messages actually reach me, make sure that my e-mail address is not hot.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Doug Anderson wrote: > Mad Mambo Master of Macedonia <n…@newb.com> writes: > > "Gray Loser" <gray_lo…@hotmail.com> wrote in > > news:1108356231.385700.272060@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com: > > > Mad Mambo Master of Macedonia wrote: > > >> rdub…@pdq.net wrote in news:1108309884.820959.65970 > > >> @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com: > > >> > No. The men merely suspect that they might have been misled. > > >> > This is obviously going to snow ball as more and more men begin > > > to > > >> > think the unthinkable about their families. > > >> It’s men who sent in a sample on their own accord, not a random or > > > quasi- > > >> random sample. > > >> Ignorance. > > > Well, not everyone gets a master’s in research methodology. Some > > > become carpenters and such, that’s why we have houses. > > Good point. > In a way. > But does it really require a masters in research methodology (in fact, > does it require anything?) to see why these studies show nothing about > the general population?
I was responding specifically to the Mad Mambo Master, who IIRC has a master’s degree in experimental psychology. Back to your post — you don’t need a master’s to identify errors in statistical reasoning, but having an education certainly helps. People are generally pretty bad at statistical reasoning. There has been a lot of research along those lines. One of the errors they typically make is ignoring the issue of self-selection.
Response:
The article is talking about 1 in 3 tested because the "father" was suspicious, not 1 in 3 of births, so NZ probably scores similar to US when you include those born to couples where the father was not suspicious. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Here in the US, the figure most accepted is that 10 to 20% of children > are born to fathers that are not biologically the genetic donors. > In other words the mother was screwing some other men and got knocked > up, passing the buck onto the man. > That makes these NZ chycks the biggest whores on the planet, even > compared to American cunts. > Now THAT is pathetic, considering the sluts that American women are!
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -John Royer wrote: > "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovet…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:37a7qaF5a4ktvU1@individual.net… >>"dwacon" <aunt.jem…@pancake.mix> writes: >>>"Hardpan" <hard…@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>>news:bc5u019ka5udj175go4b966brfialtqc3p@4ax.com… >>>>http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3171380a10,00.html >>>>Sly DNA tests show 1 in 3 dads duped >>>>30 January 2005 >>>>By TIM HUME >>>>Hundreds of Kiwi men are paying out almost $900 for secret tests in >>>>Australia to determine whether they are really a dad. >>>>And the company which runs the tests says that in one in three cases, >>>>the man finds he’s been duped. >>>Wow — what does that say about Kiwi women? >>Nothing really. >>It says that among Kiwi men who believe they _aren’t_ the father of a >>child, 2/3 of those who go ahead and test turn out to have been wrong. > Yup gee, only 33% of the population is illegitimate. Thats not too bad now, > IS IT? > Another way of looking at it DOUG is that there is a ONE in THREE chance you > are an illegitimate child as well. Me too! that sucks, wouldn’t that just > turn your whole world around?
Do yo not understand that this is a self-selected sample? Because it’s been pointed out in a message by me, by Mad Mambo and by the very post to which you are replying. August Pamplona — The waterfall in Java is not wet. – omegazero2003 on m.f.w. a.a. # 1811 apatriot #20 Eater of smut Proud member of the reality-based community. The address in this message’s ‘From’ field, in accordance with individual.net’s TOS, is real. However, almost all messages reaching this address are deleted without human intervention. In other words, if you e-mail me there, I will not receive your message. To make sure that e-mail messages actually reach me, make sure that my e-mail address is not hot.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hardpan wrote: > On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:52:59 -0500, "John Royer" > <john.roy…@sympatico.ca> wrote: >>"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovet…@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>news:37a7qaF5a4ktvU1@individual.net… >>>"dwacon" <aunt.jem…@pancake.mix> writes: >>>>"Hardpan" <hard…@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>>>news:bc5u019ka5udj175go4b966brfialtqc3p@4ax.com… >>>>>http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3171380a10,00.html >>http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3171380a10,00.html >>Sly DNA tests show 1 in 3 dads duped >>30 January 2005 >>By TIM HUME >>Hundreds of Kiwi men are paying out almost $900 for secret tests in >>Australia to determine whether they are really a dad. >>And the company which runs the tests says that in one in three cases, >>the man finds he’s been duped. >>The men have been secretly sending samples of saliva or hair to >>Australian clinic DNA Solutions because they often find the test here >>is blocked when the mother won’t give her consent. >>The tests are used by men who suspect they are not the child’s >>biological father, to disprove fatherhood of children they are paying >>for – and in some cases to get access to a child they believe is >>theirs. >>Fathers’ rights groups say the secret "motherless tests" provide vital >>protection for men and children in a system where women can abuse >>their position as "gatekeepers" and commit paternity fraud by >>concealing a child’s true father. >>"These tests are just giving people the right to know," says Bruce >>Tichbon, of Families Apart Require Equality (FARE). "Fathers have a >>right to know, but even more importantly, children have a right to >>know." >>The 20-year-old technology is reliable and affordable but paternity >>tests in New Zealand are difficult to get. The only laboratory which >>does the tests here, DNA Diagnostics, insists on having the mother’s >>consent. Obtaining a test through the courts can be cumbersome and >>laborious. >>FARE advised fathers to get the test done overseas. Although it could >>not be presented as evidence by the courts, it would provide valuable >>peace of mind. "We tell people, don’t get it done here. Bugger the >>system, it’s bankrupt," said Tichbon. "Women used to get backstreet >>abortions, now men have to get backstreet paternity tests." >>DNA Solutions, the only company to directly market its services to >>New Zealand men, says it tests about 15 kiwi men a month. In 30 per >>cent of cases, the samples did not match – meaning the man was not >>the child’s father. >>"It’s our belief that men have every right to know if they are the >>father of a child," said DNA Solutions spokeswoman Kate Hurford. >>The 30 per cent mark is higher than New Zealand’s estimates of >>"misattributed paternity" – men unwittingly raising children who are >>not biologically their own. That estimate ranges from 3 per cent to >>20 per cent. >>Stuart Birks, director of Massey University’s Centre for Public >>Policy Evaluation, said low-income men were more likely to be raising >>someone else’s child without knowing it. >>"Nationally, a rate of 10 per cent is highly likely, it could be as >>high as 20 per cent," he said. >>He thinks tests should be carried out to confirm fatherhood at birth. >>"Surely it’s better to expose it right at the start rather than >>waiting for a few years when it will have an even more traumatic >>effect," he said. >>Tichbon believed widespread paternity testing would reveal thousands >>of New Zealand men paying child support for children not biologically >>their own, raising the spectre of massive child support repayments. >>The Law Commission, which is reviewing the rules of legally proving >>parenthood, wants to clarify the law surrounding secret off-shore >>testing, which it says has a potentially "explosive" influence. >>"We’re of the view the other parent should always be informed of >>testing," said commissioner Frances Joychild. "We’re considering not >>necessarily stopping them, but at least requiring the mother to be >>informed." >>She said most paternity tests were conducted privately, outside the >>legal framework. The courts recommended only 32 paternity tests be >>conducted last year, but more than 180 were carried out without the >>mother’s consent by DNA Solutions. >>Given the volatility of the subject matter, it was important for >>tests to be conducted in a regulated environment with counselling and >>support. "It can be immensely psychologically damaging – it’s not >>good that this is happening away from any legal controls." >>DNA Solutions charges $515 to $895 for paternity tests, which compare >>mouth swabs or hair samples taken from the father and child. >>>>Wow — what does that say about Kiwi women? >>>Nothing really. >>>It says that among Kiwi men who believe they _aren’t_ the father of a >>>child, 2/3 of those who go ahead and test turn out to have been wrong. >>Yup gee, only 33% of the population is illegitimate. Thats not too bad now, >>IS IT? >>Another way of looking at it DOUG is that there is a ONE in THREE chance you >>are an illegitimate child as well. Me too! that sucks, wouldn’t that just >>turn your whole world around? > Here in the US, the figure most accepted is that 10 to 20% of children > are born to fathers that are not biologically the genetic donors. > In other words the mother was screwing some other men and got knocked > up, passing the buck onto the man. > That makes these NZ chycks the biggest whores on the planet, even > compared to American cunts. > Now THAT is pathetic, considering the sluts that American women are!
Now you are just trolling (as usual). August Pamplona — The waterfall in Java is not wet. – omegazero2003 on m.f.w. a.a. # 1811 apatriot #20 Eater of smut Proud member of the reality-based community. The address in this message’s ‘From’ field, in accordance with individual.net’s TOS, is real. However, almost all messages reaching this address are deleted without human intervention. In other words, if you e-mail me there, I will not receive your message. To make sure that e-mail messages actually reach me, make sure that my e-mail address is not hot.
Response:
Hardpan wrote: > Here in the US, the figure most accepted is that 10 to 20% of children > are born to fathers that are not biologically the genetic donors.
So who accepts this figure? Since you say it is accepted, there must be someone who is doing the accepting. Is this figure published in academic papers? I await your… (a) rant accusing me of sycophantic feminism (b) unintelligible flame
Response:
Mad Mambo Master of Macedonia wrote: > rdub…@pdq.net wrote in news:1108309884.820959.65970 > @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com: > > No. The men merely suspect that they might have been misled. > > This is obviously going to snow ball as more and more men begin to > > think the unthinkable about their families. > It’s men who sent in a sample on their own accord, not a random or quasi- > random sample. > Ignorance.
Well, not everyone gets a master’s in research methodology. Some become carpenters and such, that’s why we have houses.
Response:
"Gray Loser" <gray_lo…@hotmail.com> wrote in news:1108356231.385700.272060@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Mad Mambo Master of Macedonia wrote: >> rdub…@pdq.net wrote in news:1108309884.820959.65970 >> @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com: >> > No. The men merely suspect that they might have been misled. >> > This is obviously going to snow ball as more and more men begin > to >> > think the unthinkable about their families. >> It’s men who sent in a sample on their own accord, not a random or > quasi- >> random sample. >> Ignorance. > Well, not everyone gets a master’s in research methodology. Some > become carpenters and such, that’s why we have houses.
Good point.
Response:
Mad Mambo Master of Macedonia <n…@newb.com> writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Gray Loser" <gray_lo…@hotmail.com> wrote in > news:1108356231.385700.272060@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com: > > Mad Mambo Master of Macedonia wrote: > >> rdub…@pdq.net wrote in news:1108309884.820959.65970 > >> @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com: > >> > No. The men merely suspect that they might have been misled. > >> > This is obviously going to snow ball as more and more men begin > > to > >> > think the unthinkable about their families. > >> It’s men who sent in a sample on their own accord, not a random or > > quasi- > >> random sample. > >> Ignorance. > > Well, not everyone gets a master’s in research methodology. Some > > become carpenters and such, that’s why we have houses. > Good point.
In a way. But does it really require a masters in research methodology (in fact, does it require anything?) to see why these studies show nothing about the general population? If I stand outside a Ferrari dealership and ask people coming out whether they bought a Ferrari, and 15% say yes, would I be justified in concluding that 15% of people in the country buy Ferraris?
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"dwacon" <aunt.jem…@pancake.mix> writes: > "Hardpan" <hard…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:bc5u019ka5udj175go4b966brfialtqc3p@4ax.com… > > http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3171380a10,00.html > > Sly DNA tests show 1 in 3 dads duped > > 30 January 2005 > > By TIM HUME > > Hundreds of Kiwi men are paying out almost $900 for secret tests in > > Australia to determine whether they are really a dad. > > And the company which runs the tests says that in one in three cases, > > the man finds he’s been duped. > Wow — what does that say about Kiwi women?
Nothing really. It says that among Kiwi men who believe they _aren’t_ the father of a child, 2/3 of those who go ahead and test turn out to have been wrong.
Response:
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovet…@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:37a7qaF5a4ktvU1@individual.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "dwacon" <aunt.jem…@pancake.mix> writes: >> "Hardpan" <hard…@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> news:bc5u019ka5udj175go4b966brfialtqc3p@4ax.com… >> > http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3171380a10,00.html >> > Sly DNA tests show 1 in 3 dads duped >> > 30 January 2005 >> > By TIM HUME >> > Hundreds of Kiwi men are paying out almost $900 for secret tests in >> > Australia to determine whether they are really a dad. >> > And the company which runs the tests says that in one in three cases, >> > the man finds he’s been duped. >> Wow — what does that say about Kiwi women? > Nothing really. > It says that among Kiwi men who believe they _aren’t_ the father of a > child, 2/3 of those who go ahead and test turn out to have been wrong.
Yup gee, only 33% of the population is illegitimate. Thats not too bad now, IS IT? Another way of looking at it DOUG is that there is a ONE in THREE chance you are an illegitimate child as well. Me too! that sucks, wouldn’t that just turn your whole world around?
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<rdub…@pdq.net> wrote in message
news:1108310236.846546.181350@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com… > As should women who lie to a man and society about the identity of > the father of her children in order to take away a large portion of his > money..
Yes. Those men need to effectively be refunded.
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"Hardpan" <hard…@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bc5u019ka5udj175go4b966brfialtqc3p@4ax.com… > http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3171380a10,00.html > Sly DNA tests show 1 in 3 dads duped > 30 January 2005 > By TIM HUME > Hundreds of Kiwi men are paying out almost $900 for secret tests in > Australia to determine whether they are really a dad. > And the company which runs the tests says that in one in three cases, > the man finds he’s been duped.
Wow — what does that say about Kiwi women? — Certified Wild Women Are you one? Do you know one? http://tinyurl.com/6yoqs
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rdub…@pdq.net wrote in news:1108309884.820959.65970 @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com: > No. The men merely suspect that they might have been misled. > This is obviously going to snow ball as more and more men begin to > think the unthinkable about their families.
It’s men who sent in a sample on their own accord, not a random or quasi- random sample. Ignorance. — "Poor Jack–he was a wise man, but he loved playing with that wheat thresher. ALWAYS with the wheat thresher!" Peter Griffin. Winning Hearts&Minds: http://eerierodent.blogspot.com
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"Pumpkinhead" <pumpkin_head060…@hotmail.com> wrote in news:E0KPd.511$Yb3.401@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net: > Every man and child has the right to know the truth. But I don’t know > why it’s more important for the child to know the truth.
Who knows, the same reason some adopted children want to meet their real parents. I posted an interesting essay on this a while back, I think it was entitled "With the Peculiars", or "The Peculiar People".
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"Pumpkinhead" <pumpkin_head060…@hotmail.com> wrote in news:E0KPd.511$Yb3.401@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net: > Every man and child has the right to know the truth. But I don’t know > why it’s more important for the child to know the truth.
Subject: Among the Peculiars {semi-on-topic} Newsgroups: news:talk.origins The New York Times January 16, 2005 LIVES Among the Peculiars By BERNARD CORNWELL My birth mother, Dorothy Cornwell, nursed me for two weeks. It was 1944. She was 22 and unmarried, and her father insisted she had to give me up for adoption. So when I was 10 days old, a couple arrived and stood at the foot of the bed, from where they inspected the two of us. ”I could tell they weren’t cuddly,” Dorothy has since told me. She was right. ”Do you know who the boy’s father is?” Uncuddly Margery asked. ”He’s not French, is he? Because if he’s French, we don’t want the boy.” Alas, I was not French, and so four days later, I was taken from Hackney to Benfleet in Essex, and my name, which had been recorded as Bernard Cornwell on my birth certificate, was changed to Bernard Wiggins. The house was unhappy. Margery was a bitter woman, and Joseph, her husband, was haunted by God. I learned to fear the all-too-frequent sound of my parents’ voices raised in argument, for I had discovered that punishment for the children inevitably followed such rows. I would lie in bed, hear the shouting downstairs and dread the dawn. The family prayers, in which, each morning, we read the Bible aloud around the table and then bowed our heads as Joseph prayed, would be sullen. Storm cones hoisted. They adopted five children. The eldest, John, was a dozen years older than I, and I knew very little of him. He vanished one day. Despairing of making him into a Christian, my parents had somehow contrived, I think without the help of the courts, into placing him in a Salvation Army reform home in South Wales. He died young, I was told, of suicide. The other brother, Andrew, was much younger than I, and by the time he was adopted I had left home. That left three of us, me sandwiched between two girls, Margaret and Ruth. Margaret, a couple of years older than I, was the favorite. She embraced the teaching of the fundamentalist sect to which my adoptive parents belonged, called the Peculiar People; and she later found refuge in the Baptist Church, where, as far as I know, she remains. She was saved. Good for her, but she was no ally of mine. Ruth, a couple of years younger, was an ally, but we were easily divided and conquered. Survival was an individual thing, and my route was through hiding and lying. The first could delay punishment, and the second could obviate it altogether. The punishments had to be avoided, for they were brutal, even bloody at times, and so I became a superb liar, able to separate a score or more of the tangled web’s strands. This facility, I think, has been of great use to me as a fiction writer. I knew I was adopted from the very start. At about 7 years old, I was told by Margery that she wished she had not adopted me, a position that was a consolation to me because it confirmed that I did not belong. To what I belonged I did not know, but I knew it was not the Peculiars, and I was thus freed to construct my own parentage. This freedom was constrained at age 11, when my father left his safe open for a few moments and I dived in and discovered a piece of paper on which my mother had written my natural parents’ names and whatever other details she had learned of them. Dorothy Cornwell of East London and William Oughtred, Royal Canadian Air Force, of British Columbia. A cockney and an airman. I hid the information. Years later I found the paper again but did nothing. I liked having no parents by then. Life was fine without them. I joined BBC Television, met an American, married her, moved to the States, became a novelist and took American citizenship. I thrived, and knew I had traveled a long way from that unhappy Peculiar household. Then, as I approached my 60th birthday, I did find them, but by then I had no need of parents and it was safe to approach them. They are both living. I met William first. I was 58 and he was 80 and the patriarch of a large, happy family. I met them all, father, two half-brothers, half-sister, nieces and nephews, in Victoria, British Columbia, and had the extraordinary shock of recognition. I was like them. I looked like them, snorted like them when I laughed and was immediately comfortable with them. I remember standing on William’s terrace above the San Juan Straits and looking into his living room. It was late dusk, the lights were on and I could see them and they could not see me, and I just stared as they talked and laughed with my wife. This was family, and I sensed Margery squirming in her grave because I had escaped her. The same thing happened when, last year, I met Dorothy and discovered four more half-brothers in England. My tribe. Like me. Belonging at last. Bernard Cornwell is the author of the novel ”The Last Kingdom,” to be published next month by HarperCollins. This article was adapted from ”Family Wanted: Writers’ Adoption Stories,” to be published in Britain in July by Granta Books.
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fra…@grex.org (franco) wrote in news:379b5sF5aeq94U2@individual.net: > August Pamplona (cosmic…@hotmail.com) wrote >> IOW, 2 in 3 men who think they are not their putative child’s >>biological father are actually wrong! I’m almost surprised that the >>number is that high. > One out of three married guys you meet in the street has a wife who > regularly sucks the dicks of other men and have them cum in her > vagina, ass and mouth. Sometimes when her husband is making love to > her (if he gets the chance), his dick is getting moist with other guys > semen left over in his wife’s cunt from the good gang-bang fucking she > had the night before.
This is the problem with philosophy majors, they never rely on empirical evidence and are always hermaphroditic. — "Poor Jack–he was a wise man, but he loved playing with that wheat thresher. ALWAYS with the wheat thresher!" Peter Griffin. Winning Hearts&Minds: http://eerierodent.blogspot.com
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As should women who lie to a man and society about the identity of the father of her children in order to take away a large portion of his money..
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Hardpan <hard…@yahoo.com> wrote in news:bc5u019ka5udj175go4b966brfialtqc3p@4ax.com: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Subject: New Zealand: Sly DNA tests show 1 in 3 dads duped > From: Hardpan <hard…@yahoo.com> > Newsgroups: > soc.men,soc.women,alt.support.marriage,alt.support.divorce,alt.support. > shyness,alt.support.short > http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3171380a10,00.html > Sly DNA tests show 1 in 3 dads duped > 30 January 2005 > By TIM HUME > Hundreds of Kiwi men are paying out almost $900 for secret tests in > Australia to determine whether they are really a dad.
As far as I can tell, this is not a random sample, but a self-selected one. That’s known as a self-selection effect in the research biz.
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August Pamplona <cosmic…@hotmail.com> wrote in news:378jpgF5ac7u3U1 @individual.net: > [snip] > IOW, 2 in 3 men who think they are not their putative child’s > biological father are actually wrong! I’m almost surprised that the > number is that high.
he shoots, he scores! > August Pamplona > P.S. BTW, that’s a pretty misleading headline (that seems to be a > common problem with newspapers).
I’ll drink to that. — "Poor Jack–he was a wise man, but he loved playing with that wheat thresher. ALWAYS with the wheat thresher!" Peter Griffin. Winning Hearts&Minds: http://eerierodent.blogspot.com
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August Pamplona (cosmic…@hotmail.com) wrote > IOW, 2 in 3 men who think they are not their putative child’s >biological father are actually wrong! I’m almost surprised that the >number is that high.
One out of three married guys you meet in the street has a wife who regularly sucks the dicks of other men and have them cum in her vagina, ass and mouth. Sometimes when her husband is making love to her (if he gets the chance), his dick is getting moist with other guys semen left over in his wife’s cunt from the good gang-bang fucking she had the night before.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -August Pamplona wrote: > Hardpan wrote: > > http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3171380a10,00.html > > Sly DNA tests show 1 in 3 dads duped > > 30 January 2005 > > By TIM HUME > > Hundreds of Kiwi men are paying out almost $900 for secret tests in > > Australia to determine whether they are really a dad. > > And the company which runs the tests says that in one in three cases, > > the man finds he’s been duped. > > The men have been secretly sending samples of saliva or hair to > > Australian clinic DNA Solutions because they often find the test here > > is blocked when the mother won’t give her consent. > > The tests are used by men who suspect they are not the child’s > > biological father, to disprove fatherhood of children they are paying > > for – and in some cases to get access to a child they believe is > > theirs. > [snip] > IOW, 2 in 3 men who think they are not their putative child’s > biological father are actually wrong! I’m almost surprised that the > number is that high.
No. The men merely suspect that they might have been misled. This is obviously going to snow ball as more and more men begin to think the unthinkable about their families. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> August Pamplona > P.S. BTW, that’s a pretty misleading headline (that seems to be a > common problem with newspapers). > — > The waterfall in Java is not wet. > – omegazero2003 on m.f.w. > a.a. # 1811 apatriot #20 Eater of smut > Proud member of the reality-based community. > The address in this message’s ‘From’ field, in accordance with > individual.net’s TOS, is real. However, almost all messages > reaching this address are deleted without human intervention. > In other words, if you e-mail me there, I will not receive your message. > To make sure that e-mail messages actually reach me, > make sure that my e-mail address is not hot.
Response:
"Bandaid" <capt.band…@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:1108304255.687217.62100@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com… > Hardpan wrote: >> http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3171380a10,00.html >> Sly DNA tests show 1 in 3 dads duped >> 30 January 2005 >> By TIM HUME >> Hundreds of Kiwi men are paying out almost $900 for secret tests in >> Australia to determine whether they are really a dad. >> And the company which runs the tests says that in one in three cases, >> the man finds he’s been duped.
But I guess most of these men were already suspicious for some reason. >> "These tests are just giving people the right to know," says Bruce >> Tichbon, of Families Apart Require Equality (FARE). "Fathers have a >> right to know, but even more importantly, children have a right to >> know."
Every man and child has the right to know the truth. But I don’t know why it’s more important for the child to know the truth. >> The 20-year-old technology is reliable and affordable but paternity >> tests in New Zealand are difficult to get. The only laboratory which >> does the tests here, DNA Diagnostics, insists on having the mother’s >> consent. Obtaining a test through the courts can be cumbersome and >> laborious.
There are some simpler methods. For example, a man and a woman with blue eyes can not have a child with brown eyes. >> He thinks tests should be carried out to confirm fatherhood at birth.
I agree. It should be routine. >> "We’re of the view the other parent should always be informed of >> testing," said commissioner Frances Joychild. "We’re considering not >> necessarily stopping them, but at least requiring the mother to be >> informed."
I don’t think that should even be required. > The problem to resolve is chain of custody of the samples. To be > evidence, there has to be verification that the samples provably came > from the man and the baby respectively, otherwise a guy who wants off > the hook could send someone else’s saliva in. (or baby hair).
Good point. There should be witnesses involved when the sample is taken. > AT least the offshore test could be the basis for a court order for a > verified test. I doubt New Zealand will change things; being a welfare > state, once a man gets off the hook for child support it’s the > government that’ll pick up the payments. Someone’s paying, and the > powers that be aren’t going to be fussy if it’s the right guy or not.
This does make me angry. Some men get to avoid paying and we end up with single mothers claiming benefits. So in the end tax payers pay. All men should support their offspring. If they refuse, they should be put in prison and made to work for their meals.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hardpan wrote: > http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3171380a10,00.html > Sly DNA tests show 1 in 3 dads duped > 30 January 2005 > By TIM HUME > Hundreds of Kiwi men are paying out almost $900 for secret tests in > Australia to determine whether they are really a dad. > And the company which runs the tests says that in one in three cases, > the man finds he’s been duped. > The men have been secretly sending samples of saliva or hair to > Australian clinic DNA Solutions because they often find the test here > is blocked when the mother won’t give her consent. > The tests are used by men who suspect they are not the child’s > biological father, to disprove fatherhood of children they are paying > for – and in some cases to get access to a child they believe is > theirs.
[snip] IOW, 2 in 3 men who think they are not their putative child’s biological father are actually wrong! I’m almost surprised that the number is that high. August Pamplona P.S. BTW, that’s a pretty misleading headline (that seems to be a common problem with newspapers). — The waterfall in Java is not wet. – omegazero2003 on m.f.w. a.a. # 1811 apatriot #20 Eater of smut Proud member of the reality-based community. The address in this message’s ‘From’ field, in accordance with individual.net’s TOS, is real. However, almost all messages reaching this address are deleted without human intervention. In other words, if you e-mail me there, I will not receive your message. To make sure that e-mail messages actually reach me, make sure that my e-mail address is not hot.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hardpan wrote: > http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3171380a10,00.html > Sly DNA tests show 1 in 3 dads duped > 30 January 2005 > By TIM HUME > Hundreds of Kiwi men are paying out almost $900 for secret tests in > Australia to determine whether they are really a dad. > And the company which runs the tests says that in one in three cases, > the man finds he’s been duped. > The men have been secretly sending samples of saliva or hair to > Australian clinic DNA Solutions because they often find the test here > is blocked when the mother won’t give her consent. > The tests are used by men who suspect they are not the child’s > biological father, to disprove fatherhood of children they are paying > for – and in some cases to get access to a child they believe is > theirs. > Fathers’ rights groups say the secret "motherless tests" provide vital > protection for men and children in a system where women can abuse > their position as "gatekeepers" and commit paternity fraud by > concealing a child’s true father. > "These tests are just giving people the right to know," says Bruce > Tichbon, of Families Apart Require Equality (FARE). "Fathers have a > right to know, but even more importantly, children have a right to > know." > The 20-year-old technology is reliable and affordable but paternity > tests in New Zealand are difficult to get. The only laboratory which > does the tests here, DNA Diagnostics, insists on having the mother’s > consent. Obtaining a test through the courts can be cumbersome and > laborious. > FARE advised fathers to get the test done overseas. Although it could > not be presented as evidence by the courts, it would provide valuable > peace of mind. "We tell people, don’t get it done here. Bugger the > system, it’s bankrupt," said Tichbon. "Women used to get backstreet > abortions, now men have to get backstreet paternity tests." > DNA Solutions, the only company to directly market its services to > New Zealand men, says it tests about 15 kiwi men a month. In 30 per > cent of cases, the samples did not match – meaning the man was not > the child’s father. > "It’s our belief that men have every right to know if they are the > father of a child," said DNA Solutions spokeswoman Kate Hurford. > The 30 per cent mark is higher than New Zealand’s estimates of > "misattributed paternity" – men unwittingly raising children who are > not biologically their own. That estimate ranges from 3 per cent to > 20 per cent. > Stuart Birks, director of Massey University’s Centre for Public > Policy Evaluation, said low-income men were more likely to be raising > someone else’s child without knowing it. > "Nationally, a rate of 10 per cent is highly likely, it could be as > high as 20 per cent," he said. > He thinks tests should be carried out to confirm fatherhood at birth. > "Surely it’s better to expose it right at the start rather than > waiting for a few years when it will have an even more traumatic > effect," he said. > Tichbon believed widespread paternity testing would reveal thousands > of New Zealand men paying child support for children not biologically > their own, raising the spectre of massive child support repayments. > The Law Commission, which is reviewing the rules of legally proving > parenthood, wants to clarify the law surrounding secret off-shore > testing, which it says has a potentially "explosive" influence. > "We’re of the view the other parent should always be informed of > testing," said commissioner Frances Joychild. "We’re considering not > necessarily stopping them, but at least requiring the mother to be > informed." > She said most paternity tests were conducted privately, outside the > legal framework. The courts recommended only 32 paternity tests be > conducted last year, but more than 180 were carried out without the > mother’s consent by DNA Solutions. > Given the volatility of the subject matter, it was important for > tests to be conducted in a regulated environment with counselling and > support. "It can be immensely psychologically damaging – it’s not > good that this is happening away from any legal controls." > DNA Solutions charges $515 to $895 for paternity tests, which compare > mouth swabs or hair samples taken from the father and child. > Have you had a paternity test in Australia? > Email tim.h…@star-times.co.nz
The problem to resolve is chain of custody of the samples. To be evidence, there has to be verification that the samples provably came from the man and the baby respectively, otherwise a guy who wants off the hook could send someone else’s saliva in. (or baby hair). AT least the offshore test could be the basis for a court order for a verified test. I doubt New Zealand will change things; being a welfare state, once a man gets off the hook for child support it’s the government that’ll pick up the payments. Someone’s paying, and the powers that be aren’t going to be fussy if it’s the right guy or not.
Response:
Filed under: Feminism
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