Activism Change

How to Grow from a Boy into a Man

Question:

In article <E8F87G….@novice.uwaterloo.ca>, praet…@maxwell.uwaterloo.ca (Eric Praetzel) wrote: > In article <19970409024800.WAA03…@ladder01.news.aol.com> o…@aol.com writes: > >I read this is a review of a new book called "Manhood: An Action > >Plan for Changing Men’s Lives" by Steve Biddulph.  What > >>       Because men haven’t grown up properly, they don’t know how to > >>       relate to women as friends; they don’t know how to be mentoring >     That is true; but it is also true for women.  They have grown up to >     play a certain role and they are also bound by that role.  However, >     they have been changing since the advent of feminism; while men have >     not changed.

True, of course. > >>       Society is disintegrating primarily because men are not > >>       initiating boys into manhood: women can’t do that, however hard >     That is rubbish.  This author is either some kind of lover of the >     past who thinks that life was wonderfull or he is fully delusioned. >     Society is not "disintegrating" it is changing.

I disagree.  I think that it is important for men to teach boys how to be men, and it is true that this is not happening, and it is true that there are social costs. I don’t know that "disintegrating" is the correct word for society, but simply to assert that it is simply "changing" is equally wrong.  I would say that society is "floundering." One does not need to be a worshipper of the past to assert that the present is not perfect. The difference between conservatives and liberals is that conservatives want to turn the clock back to the 1950’s and liberals want to turn it back to the 1960’s.  Neither will work. >     Why do we have violence today?  Why does it seem worse?

… Um, we don’t have violence today, at least not a lot more.  I don’t know about Canada, but in the United States the per-capita rate of violent crime has been going down steadily since about 1972. Nobody realizes this, of course, because what we have today is a relatively fast, sensationalistic, and irresponsible news media. > >>       * ‘The leading cause of death amongst men between twelve and > >>       sixty is self-inflicted death… Monday [is] the most common day >     That is esp. true if you include smoking, drinking and high blood >     pressure from work.   But women are catching up on all of those. >     The book sounds like a one side male bashing fest.  It doesn’t have a >     very balanced view because it just points out everything that men do >     wrong.

I don’t think that it’s male-bashing, and I’m about as quick to respond to male-bashing as anybody. Eric Pepke                                     |   Everyone’s dream Supercomputer Computations Research Institute  |    Is to unstep Florida State University                       |     The butterfly. pe…@scri.fsu.edu                             |      -EP

Response:

In article <5igfmg$…@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, s…@anonymous.com (Stinky the Clown) writes: >I vaguely recall, from the days of high school Psychology classes, some model >of thinking where you have to go through several stages of growth and >development, until finally you reach a state of "self-actualization," >which is like a mental Utopia.

Are you talking about Mazlow’s Hierarchy of Needs? Food, shelter, _____, ______, self-actualization.  I don’t remember the middle two. >You love yourself, you love everyone else, >you can attain your goals… etc.  Hakuna Matata!

LOL ! ! ! >I’m curious as to the intended audience for this book. The reviewer >doesn’t really make that clear. Is this meant for women, to explain why >men are such goofballs? Or is it a self-help book for men, with advice >and suggestions for improvement?

I think it is primarily intended for men.  In a part I snipped, he compares the book to others by and for men, particularly Robert Bly’s book, which kind of started the Men’s Movement.

Response:

In article <19970412030900.XAA13…@ladder01.news.aol.com>, o…@aol.com says… >In article <5igfmg$…@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, s…@anonymous.com (Stinky the Clown) writes: >>I vaguely recall, from the days of high school Psychology classes, some model >>of thinking where you have to go through several stages of growth and >>development, until finally you reach a state of "self-actualization," >>which is like a mental Utopia. >Are you talking about Mazlow’s Hierarchy of Needs? >Food, shelter, _____, ______, self-actualization.  I >don’t remember the middle two.

That’s it! Let’s see, food, shelter, beer, comfortable shoes, self- actualization. Seems like there was more stuff in the middle though.

Response:

In article <E8F87G….@novice.uwaterloo.ca>, praet…@maxwell.uwaterloo.ca (Eric Praetzel) writes: >    There is an excellent conference called the Cuouchaching (sp??) and >    every few years they get together and look at society.  Many speakers >    have described a society which does not provide work for its young as >    a society on the way to self destruction.  

I would like to agree with you, but then I thought about the fact that in most societies in most of history, children have been treated like 4th-class citizens, if that.  Think about it: child labor laws just went into effect in this century! They used to have five year-olds working in factories for 12 hours a day!  Not exactly enlightened. >If people will not accept >    the relgious dogma then they will look for purpose and meaning in life >    thru jobs.  If they can’t get jobs, if they are looking at the future >    and see nothing but a miserable existance; what do they have to loose >    thru violence?  They see life as violent; they see that everything has >    been taken from them before they had a chance; they see an unjust world.

Well, I think the media must be blamed for our heightened expectations.  Think about it: all day long you hear and see ads persuading you to want more and more and MORE. You must have more!  Everybody else has more!  At least the beautiful, suave, rich people in this ad have more!  You will be a miserable slab of human decay if you don’t get your share of more, and right NOW! I wonder if people in countries where they don’t have people cramming these lies down their throats all day are less pessimistic and violent. >    The book sounds like a one side male bashing fest.  It doesn’t have a >    very balanced view because it just points out everything that men do >    wrong.  It does not explain the larger picture of why that is so; and >    how women are in the same trap.

Good point.

Response:

In article <19970409024800.WAA03…@ladder01.news.aol.com> o…@aol.com writes: >I read this is a review of a new book called "Manhood: An Action >Plan for Changing Men’s Lives" by Steve Biddulph.  What >>       Because men haven’t grown up properly, they don’t know how to >>       relate to women as friends; they don’t know how to be mentoring

    That is true; but it is also true for women.  They have grown up to     play a certain role and they are also bound by that role.  However,     they have been changing since the advent of feminism; while men have     not changed. >>       Society is disintegrating primarily because men are not >>       initiating boys into manhood: women can’t do that, however hard

    That is rubbish.  This author is either some kind of lover of the     past who thinks that life was wonderfull or he is fully delusioned.     Society is not "disintegrating" it is changing.       Once upon a time we lived in family units that included grandparents     at the minimum.  Along came the "nuclear" family because working adults     (mainly men) had to move to follow jobs.   Now society is changing once     again.  The industrial age is over; women and men are trying to get jobs     in a time when a stable job is a thing of the past.  We are more like     disposable parts in a machine; we come together to do a job and then     disband.  Education is changing.  Rote learning was find for people     working in the industrial age; now that sort of learning is simply bad.     We are living longer and our expectations are changing.  The career     expectations of men and women are clashing with the expectation of     children.  That will probably change.  To have everyone blood lusting     for that perfect fulfilling job doesn’t work for long.     Why do we have violence today?  Why does it seem worse?     Look at history.  In the 50’s we had a baby boom.  We had an ever     increasing population.  Our social networks; our retirement funds etc     were all built on the _assumption_ that there would always be more     children than adults.  That was the pyramid model.     Now that has gone down in flames.  Kids realize that there are no jobs     for them.  The back half of the baby boom realizes that all of the     managerial and higher-up jobs that they were aiming for are filled and     going to stay that way until retirement.  In short, by the old rules,     there is nothing for nobody nohow noway at no time.     There is an excellent conference called the Cuouchaching (sp??) and     every few years they get together and look at society.  Many speakers     have described a society which does not provide work for its young as     a society on the way to self destruction.  If people will not accept     the relgious dogma then they will look for purpose and meaning in life     thru jobs.  If they can’t get jobs, if they are looking at the future     and see nothing but a miserable existance; what do they have to loose     thru violence?  They see life as violent; they see that everything has     been taken from them before they had a chance; they see an unjust world.     They are playing in the world based on those views. >>       they try in the absence of their men.  So fatherless boys form >>       gangs (see the New Zealand movie ‘Once Were Warriors’), or else

    Yea yea yea.  Women do that too. >>       * ‘The leading cause of death amongst men between twelve and >>       sixty is self-inflicted death… Monday [is] the most common day

    That is esp. true if you include smoking, drinking and high blood     pressure from work.   But women are catching up on all of those.     The book sounds like a one side male bashing fest.  It doesn’t have a     very balanced view because it just points out everything that men do     wrong.  It does not explain the larger picture of why that is so; and     how women are in the same trap.  It seems to worship the past.  It does     not look at people as people because it seems to assume that there is     this ideal male role; a certain role that women can not perform.   – Eric

Response:

In article <19970409024800.WAA03…@ladder01.news.aol.com>, o…@aol.com says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I read this is a review of a new book called "Manhood: An Action >Plan for Changing Men’s Lives" by Steve Biddulph.  What >do you think of the points this guy makes? >In a message dated 97-04-06 20:26:31 EDT, m…@server1.softdisk.com >(All About Families) writes: >> Steve Biddulph, _Manhood:  An Action Plan for Changing Men’s Lives_ . >>  Sydney: Finch Publishing   (PO Box 120, Lane Cove 2066), 2nd edition, >>  1995. reviewed by Rowland Croucher. >>       Biddulph’s opening, encouraging (!) line: ‘Most men don’t have a >>       life. Instead, we have just learned to pretend.’ A paragraph >>       later: ‘So he spends his life pretending to be happy.’ It’s >>       uphill from there. James Michener put it memorably:  ’For this is >>       the journey that men make. To find themselves. If they fail in >>       this, it doesn’t matter what else they find.’ If the male infant >>       doesn’t move from mother to father to mentor, says Biddulph, >>       he’ll stay a kid pretending to be an adult, an empty, phony >>       caricature of the man he could have been. >>       Because men haven’t grown up properly, they don’t know how to >>       relate to women as friends; they don’t know how to be mentoring >>       fathers; they’re in bondage to male stereotypes (burn your ties >>       or use them to stake up garden trees says Biddulph). Most of us >>       couldn’t cope with the mandatory three to four days of complete >>       solitude every birthday (all the great men in history spent time >>       in the wilderness). >>       Society is disintegrating primarily because men are not >>       initiating boys into manhood: women can’t do that, however hard >>       they try in the absence of their men.  So fatherless boys form >>       gangs (see the New Zealand movie ‘Once Were Warriors’), or else >>       become wimpish loners (for some of these ‘nerds’, their best >>       friend is a computer), destroying others and themselves. >>       Nowadays, in America, half of all children will spend time in a >>       fatherless home. >>       And, says Biddulph, we’ve inherited a marriage-ideal that is >>       sweet and harmonious: ‘the passionate heated European-style >>       marriage has more going for it. Jung said, "American marriages >>       are the saddest in the whole world, because the man does all the >>       fighting at the office".’ >>       Some interesting/representative quotes: >>       * ‘Boys in our society are horrendously under-fathered… they >>       grow into phony men, who act out a role… In today’s world, >>       little boys often just grow into _bigger_ little boys.’ >>       * ‘Women had to overcome oppression, but men’s difficulties are >>       with isolation… The loneliness of men is something women rarely >>       understand.’ >>       * ‘The leading cause of death amongst men between twelve and >>       sixty is self-inflicted death… Monday [is] the most common day >>       for men to suicide.’ >>       * The seven steps to manhood: fixing it with your father, finding >>       sacredness in your sexuality, meeting your partner on equal >>       terms, engaging actively with your kids, learning to have real >>       male friends, finding your heart in your work, freeing your wild >>       spirit. >>       * ‘The Xervante people of the Brazilian rainforest have eight >>       stages of manhood and spend forty years learning them. They >>       produce perhaps the most balanced men on earth, straddling the >>       qualities we seek – strong _and_ tender, brave _and_ >>       compassionate. They are lovers of beauty and active in preserving >>       it.’ >>       * ‘Less than ten percent of men are friends with their father.’ >>       * ‘Until you can feel love and respect for your father and also >>       _receive_ the love and respect of older men, you will remain a >>       boy.’ >>       * ‘Many men need to become orgasmic – as opposed to just >>       ejaculatory… Sex education teaches us the plumbing – it’s >>       necessary, but drab. Love education might be a little more >>       challenging.’ >>       * ‘A creep [has] abandoned the difficult path of intimacy for the >>       safer one of exploitation.’ >>       That’s enough – and from just the first eighty pages (of 260). >>  Rowland Croucher is the director of John Mark Ministries – resources >>  for pastors/leaders.    (Bookroom, library, and worldwide F.W.Boreham >>  Trading Post)    Home Page: http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm

I vaguely recall, from the days of high school Psychology classes, some model of thinking where you have to go through several stages of growth and development, until finally you reach a state of "self-actualization," which is like a mental Utopia. You love yourself, you love everyone else, you can attain your goals… etc.  Hakuna Matata! But if you screw up in any of these several required developmental stages, emotionally you’re incomplete. No self-actualization for you, Monkey Boy. The majority of folks go through *enough* of the stages to survive and function, but very few actually attain self-actualization and enjoy life to the fullest potential. I know *I’m* still workin’ on it. The impression I get from the above quoted text is that the author is suggesting that yer pretty much *screwed* unless you came from a two-parent household with two self-actualized parents. If that is the implication, then I disagree. I’m sure it makes emotional development *easier* if you’ve got Ward & June Cleaver for parents (well, assuming they KISSED a bit more frequently and passionately), but I think you can and do learn from good examples wherever and whenever you may meet them in your life. I’m curious as to the intended audience for this book. The reviewer doesn’t really make that clear. Is this meant for women, to explain why men are such goofballs? Or is it a self-help book for men, with advice and suggestions for improvement? Or, since I notice the reviewer is director of some sort of ministry, is this just a push for a return to "family values?" — "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation."                 — some dead poet. "You do the hokey-pokey and you turn yourself around    That’s what it’s all about."                 — different poet

Response:

I read this is a review of a new book called "Manhood: An Action Plan for Changing Men’s Lives" by Steve Biddulph.  What do you think of the points this guy makes? In a message dated 97-04-06 20:26:31 EDT, m…@server1.softdisk.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(All About Families) writes: > Steve Biddulph, _Manhood:  An Action Plan for Changing Men’s Lives_ . >  Sydney: Finch Publishing   (PO Box 120, Lane Cove 2066), 2nd edition, >  1995. reviewed by Rowland Croucher. >       Biddulph’s opening, encouraging (!) line: ‘Most men don’t have a >       life. Instead, we have just learned to pretend.’ A paragraph >       later: ‘So he spends his life pretending to be happy.’ It’s >       uphill from there. James Michener put it memorably:  ’For this is >       the journey that men make. To find themselves. If they fail in >       this, it doesn’t matter what else they find.’ If the male infant >       doesn’t move from mother to father to mentor, says Biddulph, >       he’ll stay a kid pretending to be an adult, an empty, phony >       caricature of the man he could have been. >       Because men haven’t grown up properly, they don’t know how to >       relate to women as friends; they don’t know how to be mentoring >       fathers; they’re in bondage to male stereotypes (burn your ties >       or use them to stake up garden trees says Biddulph). Most of us >       couldn’t cope with the mandatory three to four days of complete >       solitude every birthday (all the great men in history spent time >       in the wilderness). >       Society is disintegrating primarily because men are not >       initiating boys into manhood: women can’t do that, however hard >       they try in the absence of their men.  So fatherless boys form >       gangs (see the New Zealand movie ‘Once Were Warriors’), or else >       become wimpish loners (for some of these ‘nerds’, their best >       friend is a computer), destroying others and themselves. >       Nowadays, in America, half of all children will spend time in a >       fatherless home. >       And, says Biddulph, we’ve inherited a marriage-ideal that is >       sweet and harmonious: ‘the passionate heated European-style >       marriage has more going for it. Jung said, "American marriages >       are the saddest in the whole world, because the man does all the >       fighting at the office".’ >       Some interesting/representative quotes: >       * ‘Boys in our society are horrendously under-fathered… they >       grow into phony men, who act out a role… In today’s world, >       little boys often just grow into _bigger_ little boys.’ >       * ‘Women had to overcome oppression, but men’s difficulties are >       with isolation… The loneliness of men is something women rarely >       understand.’ >       * ‘The leading cause of death amongst men between twelve and >       sixty is self-inflicted death… Monday [is] the most common day >       for men to suicide.’ >       * The seven steps to manhood: fixing it with your father, finding >       sacredness in your sexuality, meeting your partner on equal >       terms, engaging actively with your kids, learning to have real >       male friends, finding your heart in your work, freeing your wild >       spirit. >       * ‘The Xervante people of the Brazilian rainforest have eight >       stages of manhood and spend forty years learning them. They >       produce perhaps the most balanced men on earth, straddling the >       qualities we seek – strong _and_ tender, brave _and_ >       compassionate. They are lovers of beauty and active in preserving >       it.’ >       * ‘Less than ten percent of men are friends with their father.’ >       * ‘Until you can feel love and respect for your father and also >       _receive_ the love and respect of older men, you will remain a >       boy.’ >       * ‘Many men need to become orgasmic – as opposed to just >       ejaculatory… Sex education teaches us the plumbing – it’s >       necessary, but drab. Love education might be a little more >       challenging.’ >       * ‘A creep [has] abandoned the difficult path of intimacy for the >       safer one of exploitation.’ >       That’s enough – and from just the first eighty pages (of 260). >  Rowland Croucher is the director of John Mark Ministries – resources >  for pastors/leaders.    (Bookroom, library, and worldwide F.W.Boreham >  Trading Post)    Home Page: http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm

Response:

Filed under: Feminism

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