Activism Change

Getting married???????

Question:

On Wed, 18 Sep 2002, Samantha wrote:

|I got married because we were living together and marriage seemed |"the next logical step" in our relationship.  I am now paying for |that mistake. That has to be a veiled reference to child support or alimony.  How much money did that mistake cost?

Response:

"kurtis" <kurtisw…@flashmail.com> wrote in message

news:cde28b21.0209170108.7ff7868e@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> hi > Im a college student and Im interested in hearing the different > opinions that people have about marriage.  I am 23 now have been in a > relationship for the past 4 years.  My girlfriend is 27.  Im > graduating this year and am seriously considering  asking her to marry > me sometime before the end of this year.  We went through a rough year > of fighting and growing up in 2001 but we have been living together > for 3 months and I believe that our relationship is stronger now and > marriage seems like the next logical step.  I would greatly appreicate > any advise, information, or personal experiences that you would like > to share with me. >    I do feel obglited to let you know that as part of one of my > courses about computers and society, I was assigned to follow a > discussion group over the course of the sememster.  I choose a topic > that I have a real interest in and would be willing to share almost > all of my personal experiences and I just want to ask if you would be > willing to paricipate in my assignment with me.  I just want to make > sure that people knwo that I am serious about this topic and not just > using this discussion for a class assignment

I don’t know.  I have been married three times myself and I can’t speak badly about any of my experiences.  Being married is a great, but one that should be entered into for the right reasons.  I agree with the others here that you should wait a while before you decide if this is the person with whom you want to spend the rest of your life. Give it a little time and don’t rush.  If it is right you will know it, and if it isn’t, it is better to find out BEFORE, and not later. good luck the girl of many names

Response:

I enjoyed reading your post! Thanks… gkt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Thomas Locke" <rearingho…@bigpond.com> wrote in message <news:lPZh9.35361$g9.99960@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>… > My friend you have asked advice but you don’t say what it is that you want. > If you want to marry her and she is basically sane and decent, why the hell > not? You only live once. Being married is great – like having your own pet > human! And even if the worst came to the worst came to the worst, and you > got divorced, well hell you could just go on and marry someone else. And if > the worst didn’t come to the worst, you’d be happily married to your > girlfriend, and wouldn’t that be good. So don’t be prejudiced against it > because of all the doom-sayers. > But at the same time it’s true that getting married because marriage "seems" > "like" the "next logical step" does not go to the real question involved. > Okay, here is my take on the pros and cons: > Pro: > very delicious experience, ongoing, very pleasant, having friendy lover > live-in, do things together, enjoy sight, sound, feel, smell, talk, going > out together, staying in together; for example my wife is pretty and I get a > lot of pleasure from looking at her, every day; > having baths together; > playing ‘harmony of male and female’ > mutual support society; economies of scale; if one is out of work, the other > can support; > knowing each other over a long time. > People who wait to see how "the relationship" works out have the same > mindset as those who divorce because "it" didn’t work out. It’s not "it". > It’s *you*. How it works out is how you decide. The relationship is made > much *easier* by being committed. Sometimes the only thing you’ve got is > commitment, because in the middle of a conflict and a shit-fight, you don’t > feel the feeling of *liking* the other person, you don’t feel the feeling of > *loving* the other person, and your inner voice might be advising you to > piss off and get a job driving a truck in the desert. But the reason it is > better to stay and make it happen is because it is not good for man to > wander the earth lonely, disposing of important relationships because he > hasn’t got the commitment and communication skills to get through. > Con: > Monogamy is mutually injurious. It means you can’t have sex with anyone > else, unless you’ve agreed it with your wife. In practice, monogamy tends > not to work. Many married people live lives of sexual deprivation, constant > tension, unhappiness or at best, mediocrity. And the ones who can’t stand it > get divorced. Many get divorced; and the many of the others aren’t happy. > Talk to people who have been divorced. Usually it affects them very much, > for years after. Also it makes them broke. > It wouldn’t matter who you were married to, whether she was the most > attractive woman in the world, the fact is, being together day in and day > out, sex can’t help but have some element of sameness about it, of routine, > of habit, or boredom. In marriage, the sexual relationship is burdened with > the baggage of so many other distractions, like employment, householding, > the mortgage, getting the car fixed, petty resentments, major communication > breakdowns and problems, and that’s even before mentioning kids. This means > that the pleasures and delights of sex get worn down and away by all that > petty shit. The pleasures and delights of sex are too pleasurable and > delightful to lose in life. Better to arrange life so as to have an ongoing > high level of pleasure and delight from sex with many, various and beautiful > women, not just one. > The marriage laws and family laws are prejudiced against men. Basically it’s > all liability, no rights for you. > With marriage (often) goes children. Children set off a long-running course > of irrational selflessness that causes enormous suffering and deprivation. > You only have to look at parents to see what stressed out, busy, lives they > live. They always protest immediately that they wouldn’t have it any other > way, but of course ‘they would say that, wouldn’t they’? They’re not going > to publicly wish their children didn’t exist. Some parents will. The fact > is, if you go into the parenthood role, it means that the part of your life > that’s not take up with childhood, old age, sleep, work and tedium, will be > taken up with self-sacrifice, being exploited, and being sexually deprived. > The kids won’t recognise most of what you have done, and then will go off > and leave you. Don’t think they’ll support you in old age. They won’t. You > could put that same energy into other more worthwhile things, for example, > working less, relaxing more, travelling the world, and of course enjoying > the sexual delights of many varied and beautiful women. "I want to pluck the > flowers, not dig the garden." > When children come along, the marriage relationship takes a back seat to the > relationship between the mother and the child. You become a professional > provider. That’s you. That’s your function, that’s your job, and on this > point, both patriarchy and feminism are agreed – ie man has a moral > obligation to contribute to the material upkeep of his biological offspring. > I don’t believe it, but people can believe what they want. What’s better, > spending all your life working and all your money on a wife who refuses you > sex whenever she feels like it and kids who don’t appreciate what you’ve > done and then leave – or spending your life doing what you want, putting up > with a bit of loneliness now and then, and spending your money on having sex > with many, varied and beautiful women? > Women complain that men only want them for sex, and men complain that women > only want them for money and guess what? They’re both right. > Anyway, so you have to choose. The best arrangement is a happy, loving and > supportive union for life with a beautiful, wise and committed wife who > permits you to have sex with many varied and beautiful women. That’s what > I’ve got and it’s fantastic. I see the tales of misery in this newsgroup and > just cringe. You’ll get all the po-faced, holier-than-thou, sanctimonious, > morally superior, pious, hypocritical wowsers and bullshit-artists trying to > shout this down but their technique is always personal disparagement and > misrepresentation and an arrogant presumption of mystic moral superiority on > their part; they will never join issue. > If you do get married, all the best to you. You should constantly read, like > say half an hour a couple of times a week, on topics like marriage, people > skills, love, sex, negotiation, communication. Don’t listen to all the > gloom-sayers and misery-guts. You can have a fanstastic relationship – but > remember, *you* are responsible. Sometimes the relationship will depend on > your emotional leadership, and creativity to get out of a problem. You have > to learn to serve your wife. You have to learn to put everything else aside > and give her what she wants, even if you might not want it. And you have to > learn to know what you want, and how to ask for it, and how to help her to > give it to you. These are learnable people skills that will make you happy; > far more happy than a career or house can do. > If you get married, what happens is, you will come to a fork in the road. > Something will happen that makes one or both of you uncomfortable to > continue as things are. It maybe a crisis or calamity, or it may just be the > accumulated effect of staleness and boredom. The relationship will either > break up or change. To succeed in marriage, you have to become an expert on > negotiating change – finding out what would make your wife happy, and > changing your life and her life to make her happy. And of course the same > for yourself. Once you get the hang of this, it becomes extremely > pleasurable. You can negotiate bigger and more radical changes, so that your > life becomes very exciting as your wife supports you to do all the things > you really really want to do, and you support her to do all the things she > really really wants to do. So all this is enormous fun, and the relationship > become enormous fun, and your love and trust and commitment gets deeper, and > it becomes more and more obvious that finding a similary suitable partner > would be very difficult, so you go on together, having more fun, love and > commitment. > ah-so.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -cjmorga…@aol.com (CJMorgan59) writes: > Doug Anderson ethelthe…@yahoo.com wrote: > >I’ve been sitting on my hands for this one.  Mostly because I don’t > >think the OP should get married.  But it has nothing to do with his > >age.  I got married at a younger age than that (and so did my parents > >come to think of it – well, my dad was 24), and I chose my mate extremely > >well. > >_But_: -I was fairly mature, and my character (for better or worse) was > >        quite well established. > Then you are (or rather were) in a significant minority because most 23 year > old aren’t mature enough to well handle marriage. Most of them hardly know > themselves well enough, let alone having the wisdom to pick a compatible mate. > And we do such people no genuine service to regail them of how we got married > at that age or younger and how our marriage has lasted for decades because > statistically speaking, that’s simply misleading them (and giving false courage > to "do as I did") about what their own chances of success might be.

Well, statistically speaking lots of marriages don’t last.  But I know the statistics too – getting married in your teens or early 20s is statistically worse.   I also don’t believe in giving advice based on statistics.  Nor do I think I regaled the poster with anything.  In fact based on what he wrote (_not_ his age) I suggested marriage was a bad idea now. My real point is that I wouldn’t trade the years (most of a decade) my wife and I spent together in our 20s for anything.  The fact that a bad marriage is bad shouldn’t stop people from making good marriages, and I don’t think it is good _generic_ advice to tell people they shouldn’t get married until their 30s.  But then I don’t believe in generic advice (in general – insert smiley here if you wish). > If I know the orginal poster better, if I had some dealings with him in the > real world and could better get a handle on where his own maturity level might > be, my counsel to him might be otherwise — more specifically geared based on > my specific knowledge of him. And if he struck me as mature enough, then I > might even tell him to go ahead and get married… that in his particular case, > he might be of a maturity that the stats are not good to follow in > his case.

Give the advice you want.  The vast majority of your advice seems compassionate and sound.  But I think it is a disservice to give advice based on statistical assumptions.  There are other ways of doing this too.  In my small city there are very few african-americans, and a lot of those who move hear are unhappy because of that.  When an african-american woman asked me if she should move here and if there were other african-americans, I just told her what I wrote above.  She can decide if that is important to her. > >       -I was very sure that I wanted to spend the rest of my life > >         with this person. > This component does not mean anything because any fool can act with > certainty… and many do.

I disagree.  It is almost the only thing that means something.  One can be wrong even so.  But a surprising number of people seem to get married without that certainty. > >The thing that gives me pause with the OP is that he talks about the > >"next logical step."  You don’t marry because it is logical, you do it > >because you’re sure you want to spend the rest of your life with this > >person. > As I just said, any fool can act with certainty… and many do. > The wise and mature individual does apply a certain amount of logic to the > question of whether to marry or not.

Let me put it this way.  If you aren’t sure you want to be with this person, then it is illogical to marry her even if that would be the next step in the evolution of the relationship (which is what I thought the OP meant by next logical step). > The original poster in question here would perhaps be best off — speaking in > the most general terms with due consideration to where most 23 year olds are in > life — to tell his girlfriend that he’ll re-address the marriage issue in 5 > years but that the cons of getting married right now outweigh the pros, and all > the more if he hasn’t even finished school yet and gotten his career to at > least a start. First things first, and all that stuff.

I tend to agree, but not because he is 23.  Just because he is who he is (someone thinking of marriage because it is the next step, but unsure enough to ask a newsgroup for help). Finishing school together, and supporting each other through the beginnings of our respective careers has been one of the joys of our marriage. > I have no doubt that more than a handful of divorce people were quite certain > on their marriage day that "this is for sure the person I want to spend the > rest of my life with."

I’m quite sure you’re right.  But I bet that _all_ of the people who marry because it is the next logical step, without being sure that ther person they are marrying is the one the want to be with are divorced (or unhappily married). Divorce is common. I’ve snipped quite a bit above because I have no quarrel with the idea that logic has a role in decision making.  But it is logic about the decision that has a role, and not logic about raising the relationship to some "next" level (which was my reading of the OP’s use of the word).   That is, I’m not disputing the "logical" part of the "next logical step" but the "next" part.      Doug

Response:

> That has to be a veiled reference to child support or alimony.  How > much money did that mistake cost?

It wasn’t meant literally, thankfully.  Paying for it by way of a problematic marriage. Sam

Response:

Doug Anderson ethelthe…@yahoo.com wrote: >I’ve been sitting on my hands for this one.  Mostly because I don’t >think the OP should get married.  But it has nothing to do with his >age.  I got married at a younger age than that (and so did my parents >come to think of it – well, my dad was 24), and I chose my mate extremely >well. >_But_: -I was fairly mature, and my character (for better or worse) was >        quite well established.

Then you are (or rather were) in a significant minority because most 23 year old aren’t mature enough to well handle marriage. Most of them hardly know themselves well enough, let alone having the wisdom to pick a compatible mate. And we do such people no genuine service to regail them of how we got married at that age or younger and how our marriage has lasted for decades because statistically speaking, that’s simply misleading them (and giving false courage to "do as I did") about what their own chances of success might be. If I know the orginal poster better, if I had some dealings with him in the real world and could better get a handle on where his own maturity level might be, my counsel to him might be otherwise — more specifically geared based on my specific knowledge of him. And if he struck me as mature enough, then I might even tell him to go ahead and get married… that in his particular case, he might be of a maturity that the stats are not good to follow in his case. But the fact is that I don’t know this chap. And so my counsel to him can only be based on more general findings. And in the most general of terms, most 23 year old kids just aren’t ready yet for marriage, and to counsel the to go ahead when the come to us for advise is only ask them to flirt with a situation where the odd of long term success are not in their favor. ************* >       -I was very sure that I wanted to spend the rest of my life >         with this person.

This component does not mean anything because any fool can act with certainty… and many do. *********** >The thing that gives me pause with the OP is that he talks about the >"next logical step."  You don’t marry because it is logical, you do it >because you’re sure you want to spend the rest of your life with this >person.

As I just said, any fool can act with certainty… and many do. The wise and mature individual does apply a certain amount of logic to the question of whether to marry or not. Indeed it is a question which is best answered by a combination of consulting with both the mind AND the heart — where the hearts concerned it is not advisable to marry someone for whom we have no passionate feeling; no "chemistry" (only with the hope that this might manifest itself later after we are married). To my experience, if the chemistry isn’t there right from the start, it’s not a high percentage game that it’s going to show up later on. But beyond this, the wisest of folks will not just make their decision about a life long commitment base solely on what their heart tells them, but they will also apply a certain amount of logic and reasoning to their decision making as well. And in this case, "the next logical step" is not for this young man to marry, but rather for him to get himself more firmly established as an independent — his own set of friends, his own activities, his own career, his own source of independent income. Starting off a marriage as co-dependents rather than as two independent individuals who are together by choice rather than necessity is like building a house on a weak foundation, and statistically much less likely to last in the long run. So wise and mature folks do in fact apply a degree of logic to the question of whether to get married or not. They won’t marry someone if the couple doesn’t have "chemistry," but beyond this, their decision making is made with much more thoughful and rational deliberation than just the certainty, the butterfly gut feeling that they were meant to be together. The original poster in question here would perhaps be best off — speaking in the most general terms with due consideration to where most 23 year olds are in life — to tell his girlfriend that he’ll re-address the marriage issue in 5 years but that the cons of getting married right now outweigh the pros, and all the more if he hasn’t even finished school yet and gotten his career to at least a start. First things first, and all that stuff. Logic does play a significant role in it all. Or at least it does for those who really do have maturity rather than those who more casually just roll the dice on a youthful gut instinct. ************ > Can one every be sure of what one will feel in the future?

No. And so all the more reason to apply at least a fraction of logic to the situation and consider realistic odds of long term success; not a guess, but a guestimation; smart thinking; playing only the good odds; and reasonably avoiding those situation which put a person in a high risk catagory for potential divorce. Nothing is a certainty when it comes to making plans of the future. But balance can nevertheless be applied and one can make a decision about whether to marry or not based on more logic and reason that just a youthful certainty that "this is for sure the person I want to spend the rest of my life with." I have no doubt that more than a handful of divorce people were quite certain on their marriage day that "this is for sure the person I want to spend the rest of my life with." As I just said, any fool can act with certainty… and many do. ************* >Absolutely.  But 23 may not be premature, and a life long committment >need not be a burden

I agree with you on both accounts. And as I’ve said, my counsel to this individual might be different if I knew him personally (read "knew him better")  and could better give advise based on my perceptions of his specific level of maturity rather than not knowing him from a hole in the ground and having to resort to counsel which only addresses his statistical odds for someone in his early twenties. CJ

Response:

cjmorga…@aol.com (CJMorgan59) writes: > "Thomas Locke" rearingho…@bigpond.com wrote: > >My friend you have asked advice but you don’t say what it is that you want. > >If you want to marry her and she is basically sane and decent, why the hell > >not? > Why the hell not? Well, simply put, because he’s 23. And for the good majority > of us at age 23, we don’t know who would be a good compatible mate for us > because we haven’t yet solidified our own character or yet established our own > independent foundation. So we’re still on shaky ground in terms of becoming > interdependent and not more fully solidified in our own indepentent character > to well define who would make a compatible mate.

I’ve been sitting on my hands for this one.  Mostly because I don’t think the OP should get married.  But it has nothing to do with his age.  I got married at a younger age than that (and so did my parents come to think of it – well, my dad was 24), and I chose my mate extremely well. _But_: -I was fairly mature, and my character (for better or worse) was         quite well established.        -I was very sure that I wanted to spend the rest of my life          with this person. Now that we’ve been married 20 years, one of the great things about it is all the history we have in common, and all the experiences we’ve shared, and that we have, very much, built our lives together. The thing that gives me pause with the OP is that he talks about the "next logical step."  You don’t marry because it is logical, you do it because you’re sure you want to spend the rest of your life with this person.  (Can one every be sure of what one will feel in the future? No.  But one can be sure of what one feels now.) And if you need to ask, the answer is "don’t do it." > To the Original Poster: Take five more years. Get your own independent life > more firmly established. Get your schooling finished and get your career going. > Get to a point where you have a source of regular income. Use your twenties to > get some distance from the rebellous teen years and to explore life so that you > can better say what you stand for, not just want you’re against. Travel. > Explore. Do it now in your twenties before career and marriage and house > payment and parental responsibilities more heavily tax your wallet, your time > and your attention. Ponder. Plan. Decide where you want to go with the next > 30-40 years.

We did all this, together, married.  Which was wonderful.  Some of the most important grounding experiences we share are traveling together when we were young;  something we still enjoy now, though opportunities are much fewer because of children. > And when you’ve done that, then you’ll be in good alignment to > better know who you are, what you’re about, more clearly being able to > articulate what your values and beliefs are, and so better able to make > decisions regard life long commitments. > Life doesn’t always go exactly as we plan. It tends to throw us curve balls and > knock us off balance from time to time. But it’s made all the more complicated > when we add to that burden by making life long commitment > prematurely.

Absolutely.  But 23 may not be premature, and a life long committment need not be a burden (though in this case, I think 23 is premature). > So my counsel to you is just the same as I give to my 20 year old son — use > your twenties to better define who you are and to get yourself more firmly > established as an independent individual. Because it’s a hell of a lot easier > to handle the curve balls life throws us when we’re standing on a more solid > foundation. And a hell of a lot easier to decide who would make a good > compatible mate when we can more clearly define who we are ourselves. Use your > twenties to establish that. > In other words, there’s no need to rush into this whole marriage business. > Pace yourself. > Give yourself 5 years. > And there’s plenty of ground work to get done in the meantime.

There’s _always_ plenty of ground work.         Doug

Response:

"Thomas Locke" rearingho…@bigpond.com wrote: >My friend you have asked advice but you don’t say what it is that you want. >If you want to marry her and she is basically sane and decent, why the hell >not?

Why the hell not? Well, simply put, because he’s 23. And for the good majority of us at age 23, we don’t know who would be a good compatible mate for us because we haven’t yet solidified our own character or yet established our own independent foundation. So we’re still on shaky ground in terms of becoming interdependent and not more fully solidified in our own indepentent character to well define who would make a compatible mate. To the Original Poster: Take five more years. Get your own independent life more firmly established. Get your schooling finished and get your career going. Get to a point where you have a source of regular income. Use your twenties to get some distance from the rebellous teen years and to explore life so that you can better say what you stand for, not just want you’re against. Travel. Explore. Do it now in your twenties before career and marriage and house payment and parental responsibilities more heavily tax your wallet, your time and your attention. Ponder. Plan. Decide where you want to go with the next 30-40 years. And when you’ve done that, then you’ll be in good alignment to better know who you are, what you’re about, more clearly being able to articulate what your values and beliefs are, and so better able to make decisions regard life long commitments. Life doesn’t always go exactly as we plan. It tends to throw us curve balls and knock us off balance from time to time. But it’s made all the more complicated when we add to that burden by making life long commitment prematurely. So my counsel to you is just the same as I give to my 20 year old son — use your twenties to better define who you are and to get yourself more firmly established as an independent individual. Because it’s a hell of a lot easier to handle the curve balls life throws us when we’re standing on a more solid foundation. And a hell of a lot easier to decide who would make a good compatible mate when we can more clearly define who we are ourselves. Use your twenties to establish that. In other words, there’s no need to rush into this whole marriage business. Pace yourself. Give yourself 5 years. And there’s plenty of ground work to get done in the meantime. CJ  

Response:

"Tim Ames" wrote: >> ********************************** >> ********************************** >> ***   DO NOT GET MARRIED ! ! !    *** >> ***  DON’T DO IT ! ! !  PERIOD ! ! ! *** >> ********************************** >> **********************************

"Her Name Was Lola" wrote: >Gee Tim, don’t be shy.  Say what you really think.

ROTFL. CJ

Response:

Matthew Montchalin <mmont…@OregonVOS.net> wrote: > Emma Anne wrote: > |kurtis <kurtisw…@flashmail.com> wrote: > | > |> marriage seems like the next logical step. > | > |Don’t do it!  Marriage as "the next logical step" is a terrible idea. > Because it is harder to dissolve the financial bonds? > Because you both bring additional baggage into the relationship?

Because you end up being either divorced or miserable.  IMHO.  Marriage inevitably hits rough spots, and without the deep desire to be together you don’t weather them.  And then one of the spouses *does* fall in love – with someone else, and all hell breaks loose.   These things *can* happen when both people really love each other and want to be married.  But it they almost inevitable when they get married because it is the "logical next step."

Response:

Hello Kurtis, I am 28 years old and I’ve been married for 4 years.  I have been enjoying my marrige a great deal, and I’m totally happy that I married. The only advice I have for you is to do what your heart tells you, not your mind.  So saying its the next "logical step" totally sounds like its coming from the wrong place.  Do what you feel is right, bottom line your heart will tell you who it is, and when it should happen, because thats where it all comes from.

Response:

On Tue, 17 Sep 2002 18:19:09 -0600, "Her Name Was Lola" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<l…@spamdump.com> wrote: >"Tim Ames" <tha…@cisco.com> wrote in message >news:3D8774D3.528FCB8B@cisco.com… >> ********************************** >> ********************************** >> ***   DO NOT GET MARRIED ! ! !    *** >> ***  DON’T DO IT ! ! !  PERIOD ! ! ! *** >> ********************************** >> ********************************** >> Tim >Gee Tim, don’t be shy.  Say what you really think. >the girl of many names

I think he encapsulated the solution to this complex question beautifully. Tim – where were you seven years ago, when I most needed wise counsel like this ? ~Ian.

Response:

> Im a college student and Im interested in hearing the different > opinions that people have about marriage.  I am 23 now have been in a > relationship for the past 4 years.  My girlfriend is 27.  Im > graduating this year and am seriously considering  asking her to marry > me sometime before the end of this year.  We went through a rough year > of fighting and growing up in 2001 but we have been living together > for 3 months and I believe that our relationship is stronger now and > marriage seems like the next logical step.  I would greatly appreicate > any advise, information, or personal experiences that you would like > to share with me.

My friend you have asked advice but you don’t say what it is that you want. If you want to marry her and she is basically sane and decent, why the hell not? You only live once. Being married is great – like having your own pet human! And even if the worst came to the worst came to the worst, and you got divorced, well hell you could just go on and marry someone else. And if the worst didn’t come to the worst, you’d be happily married to your girlfriend, and wouldn’t that be good. So don’t be prejudiced against it because of all the doom-sayers. But at the same time it’s true that getting married because marriage "seems" "like" the "next logical step" does not go to the real question involved. Okay, here is my take on the pros and cons: Pro: very delicious experience, ongoing, very pleasant, having friendy lover live-in, do things together, enjoy sight, sound, feel, smell, talk, going out together, staying in together; for example my wife is pretty and I get a lot of pleasure from looking at her, every day; having baths together; playing ‘harmony of male and female’ mutual support society; economies of scale; if one is out of work, the other can support; knowing each other over a long time. People who wait to see how "the relationship" works out have the same mindset as those who divorce because "it" didn’t work out. It’s not "it". It’s *you*. How it works out is how you decide. The relationship is made much *easier* by being committed. Sometimes the only thing you’ve got is commitment, because in the middle of a conflict and a shit-fight, you don’t feel the feeling of *liking* the other person, you don’t feel the feeling of *loving* the other person, and your inner voice might be advising you to piss off and get a job driving a truck in the desert. But the reason it is better to stay and make it happen is because it is not good for man to wander the earth lonely, disposing of important relationships because he hasn’t got the commitment and communication skills to get through. Con: Monogamy is mutually injurious. It means you can’t have sex with anyone else, unless you’ve agreed it with your wife. In practice, monogamy tends not to work. Many married people live lives of sexual deprivation, constant tension, unhappiness or at best, mediocrity. And the ones who can’t stand it get divorced. Many get divorced; and the many of the others aren’t happy. Talk to people who have been divorced. Usually it affects them very much, for years after. Also it makes them broke. It wouldn’t matter who you were married to, whether she was the most attractive woman in the world, the fact is, being together day in and day out, sex can’t help but have some element of sameness about it, of routine, of habit, or boredom. In marriage, the sexual relationship is burdened with the baggage of so many other distractions, like employment, householding, the mortgage, getting the car fixed, petty resentments, major communication breakdowns and problems, and that’s even before mentioning kids. This means that the pleasures and delights of sex get worn down and away by all that petty shit. The pleasures and delights of sex are too pleasurable and delightful to lose in life. Better to arrange life so as to have an ongoing high level of pleasure and delight from sex with many, various and beautiful women, not just one. The marriage laws and family laws are prejudiced against men. Basically it’s all liability, no rights for you. With marriage (often) goes children. Children set off a long-running course of irrational selflessness that causes enormous suffering and deprivation. You only have to look at parents to see what stressed out, busy, lives they live. They always protest immediately that they wouldn’t have it any other way, but of course ‘they would say that, wouldn’t they’? They’re not going to publicly wish their children didn’t exist. Some parents will. The fact is, if you go into the parenthood role, it means that the part of your life that’s not take up with childhood, old age, sleep, work and tedium, will be taken up with self-sacrifice, being exploited, and being sexually deprived. The kids won’t recognise most of what you have done, and then will go off and leave you. Don’t think they’ll support you in old age. They won’t. You could put that same energy into other more worthwhile things, for example, working less, relaxing more, travelling the world, and of course enjoying the sexual delights of many varied and beautiful women. "I want to pluck the flowers, not dig the garden." When children come along, the marriage relationship takes a back seat to the relationship between the mother and the child. You become a professional provider. That’s you. That’s your function, that’s your job, and on this point, both patriarchy and feminism are agreed – ie man has a moral obligation to contribute to the material upkeep of his biological offspring. I don’t believe it, but people can believe what they want. What’s better, spending all your life working and all your money on a wife who refuses you sex whenever she feels like it and kids who don’t appreciate what you’ve done and then leave – or spending your life doing what you want, putting up with a bit of loneliness now and then, and spending your money on having sex with many, varied and beautiful women? Women complain that men only want them for sex, and men complain that women only want them for money and guess what? They’re both right. Anyway, so you have to choose. The best arrangement is a happy, loving and supportive union for life with a beautiful, wise and committed wife who permits you to have sex with many varied and beautiful women. That’s what I’ve got and it’s fantastic. I see the tales of misery in this newsgroup and just cringe. You’ll get all the po-faced, holier-than-thou, sanctimonious, morally superior, pious, hypocritical wowsers and bullshit-artists trying to shout this down but their technique is always personal disparagement and misrepresentation and an arrogant presumption of mystic moral superiority on their part; they will never join issue. If you do get married, all the best to you. You should constantly read, like say half an hour a couple of times a week, on topics like marriage, people skills, love, sex, negotiation, communication. Don’t listen to all the gloom-sayers and misery-guts. You can have a fanstastic relationship – but remember, *you* are responsible. Sometimes the relationship will depend on your emotional leadership, and creativity to get out of a problem. You have to learn to serve your wife. You have to learn to put everything else aside and give her what she wants, even if you might not want it. And you have to learn to know what you want, and how to ask for it, and how to help her to give it to you. These are learnable people skills that will make you happy; far more happy than a career or house can do. If you get married, what happens is, you will come to a fork in the road. Something will happen that makes one or both of you uncomfortable to continue as things are. It maybe a crisis or calamity, or it may just be the accumulated effect of staleness and boredom. The relationship will either break up or change. To succeed in marriage, you have to become an expert on negotiating change – finding out what would make your wife happy, and changing your life and her life to make her happy. And of course the same for yourself. Once you get the hang of this, it becomes extremely pleasurable. You can negotiate bigger and more radical changes, so that your life becomes very exciting as your wife supports you to do all the things you really really want to do, and you support her to do all the things she really really wants to do. So all this is enormous fun, and the relationship become enormous fun, and your love and trust and commitment gets deeper, and it becomes more and more obvious that finding a similary suitable partner would be very difficult, so you go on together, having more fun, love and commitment. ah-so.

Response:

"Tim Ames" <tha…@cisco.com> wrote in message

news:3D8774D3.528FCB8B@cisco.com… > ********************************** > ********************************** > ***   DO NOT GET MARRIED ! ! !    *** > ***  DON’T DO IT ! ! !  PERIOD ! ! ! *** > ********************************** > ********************************** > Tim

Gee Tim, don’t be shy.  Say what you really think. the girl of many names

Response:

Emma Anne wrote: |kurtis <kurtisw…@flashmail.com> wrote:

| |> marriage seems like the next logical step. | |Don’t do it!  Marriage as "the next logical step" is a terrible idea. Because it is harder to dissolve the financial bonds? Because you both bring additional baggage into the relationship? Not all of that ’surprise baggage’ (in the form of relatives, friends, buddies, acquaintances, debts) is necessarily evil or undesirable, and some of it is actually positive, in that friendships with new relatives might often outlive the relationship itself. |I know because I did it once.  Don’t get married until you deeply want |to get married to that person. Okay…  To you, what does it mean to get ‘married?’  If you anticipate managing a joint bank account together, I suppose you could do that without getting married.  Or is there something else that you are interested in?  If you wish to first limit your liability in specific ways, what about forming a LLP or LLC?

Response:

kurtisw…@flashmail.com (kurtis) wrote in message <news:cde28b21.0209170108.7ff7868e@posting.google.com>… > hi > Im a college student and Im interested in hearing the different > opinions that people have about marriage.  I am 23 now have been in a > relationship for the past 4 years.  My girlfriend is 27.  Im > graduating this year and am seriously considering  asking her to marry > me sometime before the end of this year.  We went through a rough year > of fighting and growing up in 2001 but we have been living together > for 3 months and I believe that our relationship is stronger now and > marriage seems like the next logical step.  I would greatly appreicate > any advise, information, or personal experiences that you would like > to share with me.

While I am not allowed to share specific details of one of my relationships here, I can offer you some of my wisdom… I got a distinct impression from your post… you have a fear of losing this person… if this is the case, and I could be wrong (it’s happened once before) then I must say that marriage is the wrong course of action right now or in the near future. Stay together but don’t tie the knot yet. Live together for at least 2 more years before making such a decision… you have all the time in your life… if you believe that marriage will KEEP you together with her for life, you’ve still got some hard lessons to learn. -=<{jSl}>=- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->    I do feel obglited to let you know that as part of one of my > courses about computers and society, I was assigned to follow a > discussion group over the course of the sememster.  I choose a topic > that I have a real interest in and would be willing to share almost > all of my personal experiences and I just want to ask if you would be > willing to paricipate in my assignment with me.  I just want to make > sure that people knwo that I am serious about this topic and not just > using this discussion for a class assignment

Response:

I got married because we were living together and marriage seemed "the next logical step" in our relationship.  I am now paying for that mistake. That’s a bad reason to marry someone. Don’t get married before you’re 25.  That’s my advice. Welcome to the group.  This is a good bunch. Sam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> hi > Im a college student and Im interested in hearing the different > opinions that people have about marriage.  I am 23 now have been in a > relationship for the past 4 years.  My girlfriend is 27.  Im > graduating this year and am seriously considering  asking her to marry > me sometime before the end of this year.  We went through a rough year > of fighting and growing up in 2001 but we have been living together > for 3 months and I believe that our relationship is stronger now and > marriage seems like the next logical step.  I would greatly appreicate > any advise, information, or personal experiences that you would like > to share with me. >    I do feel obglited to let you know that as part of one of my > courses about computers and society, I was assigned to follow a > discussion group over the course of the sememster.  I choose a topic > that I have a real interest in and would be willing to share almost > all of my personal experiences and I just want to ask if you would be > willing to paricipate in my assignment with me.  I just want to make > sure that people knwo that I am serious about this topic and not just > using this discussion for a class assignment

Response:

kurtisw…@flashmail.com  (kurtis) wrote: >Im a college student and Im interested in hearing the different >opinions that people have about marriage.  I am 23 now have been in a >relationship for the past 4 years.  My girlfriend is 27.  Im >graduating this year and am seriously considering  asking her to marry >me sometime before the end of this year.  We went through a rough year >of fighting and growing up in 2001 but we have been living together >for 3 months and I believe that our relationship is stronger now and >marriage seems like the next logical step.  I would greatly appreicate >any advise, information, or personal experiences that you would like >to share with me.

Wait 5 years. CJ

Response:

kurtis <kurtisw…@flashmail.com> wrote: > marriage seems like the next logical step.

Don’t do it!  Marriage as "the next logical step" is a terrible idea.  I know because I did it once.  Don’t get married until you deeply want to get married to that person.

Response:

********************************** ********************************** ***   DO NOT GET MARRIED ! ! !    *** ***  DON’T DO IT ! ! !  PERIOD ! ! ! *** ********************************** ********************************** Tim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -kurtis wrote: > hi > Im a college student and Im interested in hearing the different > opinions that people have about marriage.  I am 23 now have been in a > relationship for the past 4 years.  My girlfriend is 27.  Im > graduating this year and am seriously considering  asking her to marry > me sometime before the end of this year.  We went through a rough year > of fighting and growing up in 2001 but we have been living together > for 3 months and I believe that our relationship is stronger now and > marriage seems like the next logical step.  I would greatly appreicate > any advise, information, or personal experiences that you would like > to share with me. >    I do feel obglited to let you know that as part of one of my > courses about computers and society, I was assigned to follow a > discussion group over the course of the sememster.  I choose a topic > that I have a real interest in and would be willing to share almost > all of my personal experiences and I just want to ask if you would be > willing to paricipate in my assignment with me.  I just want to make > sure that people knwo that I am serious about this topic and not just > using this discussion for a class assignment

Response:

"kurtis" <kurtisw…@flashmail.com> wrote in message

news:cde28b21.0209170108.7ff7868e@posting.google.com… > Im a college student and Im interested in hearing the different > opinions that people have about marriage.  I am 23 now have been in a > relationship for the past 4 years.  My girlfriend is 27.  Im > graduating this year and am seriously considering  asking her to marry > me sometime before the end of this year.  We went through a rough year > of fighting and growing up in 2001 but we have been living together > for 3 months and I believe that our relationship is stronger now and > marriage seems like the next logical step.  I would greatly appreicate > any advise, information, or personal experiences that you would like > to share with me.

You shouldn’t get married because you’ve been together for a while and it seems logical.  You should get married because you want to spend your lives together.  Whatever you decide, get some premarital counseling and compatibility testing.  It’s a good chance to make sure that you’re on the same page about major issues in marriage.

Response:

Kurtis, congratulations on finding someone who makes your heart sing.  In my honest opinion, and looking back, I would have waited a while before I married.  I would have become established in my chosen career before I tied the knot. It is a little stressful when you are finally out of college, and looking for that "perfect" job.  Also, in retrospect, it is also a good idea, in my opinion, to wait before having children.  See, I made the ultimate mistake. I married someone who was one of my greatest friends before I finished nursing school, and 10 months later, we had a baby.  So… sudden new marriage…. sudden new family… suddenly looking for a job in my field… made us not as "friendly".  Am I talking in circles? Hope I made sense. Hugs, Heather xoxo P.S.:  Good luck on your schooling. "kurtis" <kurtisw…@flashmail.com> wrote in message

news:cde28b21.0209170108.7ff7868e@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> hi > Im a college student and Im interested in hearing the different > opinions that people have about marriage.  I am 23 now have been in a > relationship for the past 4 years.  My girlfriend is 27.  Im > graduating this year and am seriously considering  asking her to marry > me sometime before the end of this year.  We went through a rough year > of fighting and growing up in 2001 but we have been living together > for 3 months and I believe that our relationship is stronger now and > marriage seems like the next logical step.  I would greatly appreicate > any advise, information, or personal experiences that you would like > to share with me. >    I do feel obglited to let you know that as part of one of my > courses about computers and society, I was assigned to follow a > discussion group over the course of the sememster.  I choose a topic > that I have a real interest in and would be willing to share almost > all of my personal experiences and I just want to ask if you would be > willing to paricipate in my assignment with me.  I just want to make > sure that people knwo that I am serious about this topic and not just > using this discussion for a class assignment

Response:

hi Im a college student and Im interested in hearing the different opinions that people have about marriage.  I am 23 now have been in a relationship for the past 4 years.  My girlfriend is 27.  Im graduating this year and am seriously considering  asking her to marry me sometime before the end of this year.  We went through a rough year of fighting and growing up in 2001 but we have been living together for 3 months and I believe that our relationship is stronger now and marriage seems like the next logical step.  I would greatly appreicate any advise, information, or personal experiences that you would like to share with me.    I do feel obglited to let you know that as part of one of my courses about computers and society, I was assigned to follow a discussion group over the course of the sememster.  I choose a topic that I have a real interest in and would be willing to share almost all of my personal experiences and I just want to ask if you would be willing to paricipate in my assignment with me.  I just want to make sure that people knwo that I am serious about this topic and not just using this discussion for a class assignment

Response:

Why is marriage the next logical step?? You have only been living together 3 months. People live together for years these days, even have kids together. You are 23, marriage is a lifetime commitment. You will grow and change much over the next few years. Come back to the question 5 years down the line and then see if its really what you want to do. There is no rush! "kurtis" <kurtisw…@flashmail.com> wrote in message

news:cde28b21.0209170108.7ff7868e@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> hi > Im a college student and Im interested in hearing the different > opinions that people have about marriage.  I am 23 now have been in a > relationship for the past 4 years.  My girlfriend is 27.  Im > graduating this year and am seriously considering  asking her to marry > me sometime before the end of this year.  We went through a rough year > of fighting and growing up in 2001 but we have been living together > for 3 months and I believe that our relationship is stronger now and > marriage seems like the next logical step.  I would greatly appreicate > any advise, information, or personal experiences that you would like > to share with me. >    I do feel obglited to let you know that as part of one of my > courses about computers and society, I was assigned to follow a > discussion group over the course of the sememster.  I choose a topic > that I have a real interest in and would be willing to share almost > all of my personal experiences and I just want to ask if you would be > willing to paricipate in my assignment with me.  I just want to make > sure that people knwo that I am serious about this topic and not just > using this discussion for a class assignment

Response:

"kurtis" <kurtisw…@flashmail.com> wrote in message

news:cde28b21.0209170108.7ff7868e@posting.google.com… > hi > Im a college student and Im interested in hearing the different > opinions that people have about marriage.  I am 23 now have been in a > relationship for the past 4 years.  My girlfriend is 27.  Im > graduating this year and am seriously considering  asking her to marry > me sometime before the end of this year.  We went through a rough year > of fighting and growing up in 2001 but we have been living together > for 3 months and I believe that our relationship is stronger now and > marriage seems like the next logical step.  I would greatly appreicate > any advise, information, or personal experiences that you would like > to share with me.

I got married once because it was "the next logical step". A big mistake. Get married because you really want to marry *this* person. >    I do feel obglited to let you know that as part of one of my > courses about computers and society, I was assigned to follow a > discussion group over the course of the sememster.  I choose a topic > that I have a real interest in and would be willing to share almost > all of my personal experiences and I just want to ask if you would be > willing to paricipate in my assignment with me.  I just want to make > sure that people knwo that I am serious about this topic and not just > using this discussion for a class assignment

You picked a good group. JWB

Response:

Filed under: Feminism

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