Activism Change

Feminazis were wrong about boys

Question:

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:39:31 +0100, James Cameron <bugg…@btinternet.com> wrote: -> ->http://www.timesonline.co.uk/ -> ->’Boys will be boys so let them play war games with toy guns’ ->By Tony Halpin, Education Editor -> -> -> ->FOR more than three decades earnest staff in nurseries and primary ->schools have banned boys from acting out war games and superhero ->fantasies in the playground wielding pretend guns and swords. ->But experts at a conference in London today will be told that that "Experts?"  That must be Newspeak for "fools with a PC ideology"? ->approach is a mistake. Boys and girls should be allowed to play their ->violent games and may even suffer harm if they cannot. Penny Holland, ->senior lecturer in early childhood studies at London Metropolitan ->University, says that boys have fallen victim to a politically correct ->dogma that is ignoring their need for boisterous rough-and-tumble ->play. Never trust the Social Engineers – they’re absolutely clueless.

Response:

Of course it’s written by a female. Males in the media would never write anything remotely pro-male.

Response:

In article <1DTPa.1125$dk4.47…@typhoon.sonic.net>, Michael Snyder wrote: > Ignoramus14756 wrote in message … >>I suspect that there is a much less sinister reasons as to why >>nurseries banned toy swords. The reason is that kids can hurt each >>other with toy swords, if, say, they hit another’s eye or >>something. So they do not want liability. > And if this was only about toy swords, that might be the explanation. > It doesn’t explain the ban of toy guns, and it doesn’t explain the ban > of any form of aggressive play.

I am not sure if I am that willing to consider guns as toys, although my son has some water guns. I will teach him to shoot real guns at 13 or so, depending on his maturity level… i – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>I frankly would not want the >>kids at the kindergarten where my son goes, to have toy swords. My son >>stays home so far though. This comes from someone who owns a bunch of >>guns and is an NRA member. >>i >>In article <beodvr$7fc5…@ID-13547.news.uni-berlin.de>, James Cameron wrote: >>> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/ >>> ‘Boys will be boys so let them play war games with toy guns’ >>> By Tony Halpin, Education Editor >>> FOR more than three decades earnest staff in nurseries and primary >>> schools have banned boys from acting out war games and superhero >>> fantasies in the playground wielding pretend guns and swords. >>> But experts at a conference in London today will be told that that >>> approach is a mistake. Boys and girls should be allowed to play their >>> violent games and may even suffer harm if they cannot. Penny Holland, >>> senior lecturer in early childhood studies at London Metropolitan >>> University, says that boys have fallen victim to a politically correct >>> dogma that is ignoring their need for boisterous rough-and-tumble >>> play. >>> Some become disruptive and live up to a "bad boy" image because they >>> have been told off constantly for playing in a way that nursery staff >>> and teachers, most of whom are female, regard as unacceptable. >>> A new book by Ms Holland, We Don?t Play with Guns Here, urges >>> early-years centres to reconsider the ban on "war, weapon, and >>> superhero play", arguing that boys will be boys. >>> There is said to be no evidence of a decline in their desire to play >>> violent games despite 30 years of official disapproval. Boys continued >>> to play behind the backs of staff, even when they had been told it was >>> wrong. >>> "It is very much part of them making sense of the world. It relates to >>> timeless themes of the struggle between good and evil," she told The >>> Times. >>> "It seems to represent a developmental need to play with these things >>> and my feeling is that it is counter-productive to work against that. >>> You can see in some situations, where there has been rigorous >>> enforcement of zero tolerance, that it marginalises these children >>> because their interests are so squarely rejected. If they are >>> constantly receiving negative responses to their play interests, with >>> people saying ?No, we don?t play with guns here?, they absorb the >>> sense that they are bad boys. They seek negative attention and it >>> becomes a self-perpetuating cycle." >>> Ms Holland said that the zero-tolerance approach had emerged from >>> pacifist and feminist movements in the 1960s and 1970s that assumed >>> that "the spiral of male violence" could be broken by preventing boys >>> from playing aggressive games. But there was no evidence that boys >>> were more or less likely to grow into aggressive men because of the >>> games they played. >>> Her book observes that nurseries that had relaxed their ban on guns, >>> swords, and violent games had reported that boys had more fun >>> together, made closer friendships, and became more creative in other >>> areas of play, such as dressing up as princes in fairy tales. Most >>> such nurseries found that levels of real fighting between boys >>> declined. >>> Staff who stood back and watched children play-fighting, instead of >>> intervening, discovered that they were much more careful to avoid >>> injuries than had been believed, the book says. The children often >>> agreed rules of the game between themselves to ensure that nobody got >>> hurt. "This has particularly been observed in episodes of sword >>> fighting and superhero-karate style fight scenarios," Ms Holland >>> writes. >>> Yet because of their prejudices, staff in many centres felt >>> uncomfortable about allowing boys to make guns and swords out of toy >>> bricks and other materials. "At best, do we respond to their energy >>> and exuberance as irritatingly alien and male? At worst, do we see >>> them as wife-beaters, armed robbers and rapists in the making?" Ms >>> Holland writes. "Do our sincere desires to eradicate violence cloud >>> our ability to interpret their behaviour as play?" A refusal to accept >>> war games meant nursery staff were missing opportunities to talk to >>> children about events they witnessed on television. Many nurseries >>> reported seeing children pretending to be aircraft and knocking down >>> tower blocks made of bricks after the September 11 terrorist attack in >>> New York. >>> Ms Holland told The Times: "The idea that they can leave these things >>> behind at the nursery gate has to be changed, and that is one reason >>> why practitioners are challenging zero tolerance." >>> DEBATE >>> What signal does this send to our children? >>> E-mail your views to deb…@thetimes.co.uk

Response:

Ignoramus14756 wrote in message … >I suspect that there is a much less sinister reasons as to why >nurseries banned toy swords. The reason is that kids can hurt each >other with toy swords, if, say, they hit another’s eye or >something. So they do not want liability.

And if this was only about toy swords, that might be the explanation. It doesn’t explain the ban of toy guns, and it doesn’t explain the ban of any form of aggressive play. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I frankly would not want the >kids at the kindergarten where my son goes, to have toy swords. My son >stays home so far though. This comes from someone who owns a bunch of >guns and is an NRA member. >i >In article <beodvr$7fc5…@ID-13547.news.uni-berlin.de>, James Cameron wrote: >> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/ >> ‘Boys will be boys so let them play war games with toy guns’ >> By Tony Halpin, Education Editor >> FOR more than three decades earnest staff in nurseries and primary >> schools have banned boys from acting out war games and superhero >> fantasies in the playground wielding pretend guns and swords. >> But experts at a conference in London today will be told that that >> approach is a mistake. Boys and girls should be allowed to play their >> violent games and may even suffer harm if they cannot. Penny Holland, >> senior lecturer in early childhood studies at London Metropolitan >> University, says that boys have fallen victim to a politically correct >> dogma that is ignoring their need for boisterous rough-and-tumble >> play. >> Some become disruptive and live up to a "bad boy" image because they >> have been told off constantly for playing in a way that nursery staff >> and teachers, most of whom are female, regard as unacceptable. >> A new book by Ms Holland, We Don?t Play with Guns Here, urges >> early-years centres to reconsider the ban on "war, weapon, and >> superhero play", arguing that boys will be boys. >> There is said to be no evidence of a decline in their desire to play >> violent games despite 30 years of official disapproval. Boys continued >> to play behind the backs of staff, even when they had been told it was >> wrong. >> "It is very much part of them making sense of the world. It relates to >> timeless themes of the struggle between good and evil," she told The >> Times. >> "It seems to represent a developmental need to play with these things >> and my feeling is that it is counter-productive to work against that. >> You can see in some situations, where there has been rigorous >> enforcement of zero tolerance, that it marginalises these children >> because their interests are so squarely rejected. If they are >> constantly receiving negative responses to their play interests, with >> people saying ?No, we don?t play with guns here?, they absorb the >> sense that they are bad boys. They seek negative attention and it >> becomes a self-perpetuating cycle." >> Ms Holland said that the zero-tolerance approach had emerged from >> pacifist and feminist movements in the 1960s and 1970s that assumed >> that "the spiral of male violence" could be broken by preventing boys >> from playing aggressive games. But there was no evidence that boys >> were more or less likely to grow into aggressive men because of the >> games they played. >> Her book observes that nurseries that had relaxed their ban on guns, >> swords, and violent games had reported that boys had more fun >> together, made closer friendships, and became more creative in other >> areas of play, such as dressing up as princes in fairy tales. Most >> such nurseries found that levels of real fighting between boys >> declined. >> Staff who stood back and watched children play-fighting, instead of >> intervening, discovered that they were much more careful to avoid >> injuries than had been believed, the book says. The children often >> agreed rules of the game between themselves to ensure that nobody got >> hurt. "This has particularly been observed in episodes of sword >> fighting and superhero-karate style fight scenarios," Ms Holland >> writes. >> Yet because of their prejudices, staff in many centres felt >> uncomfortable about allowing boys to make guns and swords out of toy >> bricks and other materials. "At best, do we respond to their energy >> and exuberance as irritatingly alien and male? At worst, do we see >> them as wife-beaters, armed robbers and rapists in the making?" Ms >> Holland writes. "Do our sincere desires to eradicate violence cloud >> our ability to interpret their behaviour as play?" A refusal to accept >> war games meant nursery staff were missing opportunities to talk to >> children about events they witnessed on television. Many nurseries >> reported seeing children pretending to be aircraft and knocking down >> tower blocks made of bricks after the September 11 terrorist attack in >> New York. >> Ms Holland told The Times: "The idea that they can leave these things >> behind at the nursery gate has to be changed, and that is one reason >> why practitioners are challenging zero tolerance." >> DEBATE >> What signal does this send to our children? >> E-mail your views to deb…@thetimes.co.uk

Response:

I suspect that there is a much less sinister reasons as to why nurseries banned toy swords. The reason is that kids can hurt each other with toy swords, if, say, they hit another’s eye or something. So they do not want liability. I frankly would not want the kids at the kindergarten where my son goes, to have toy swords. My son stays home so far though. This comes from someone who owns a bunch of guns and is an NRA member. i – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In article <beodvr$7fc5…@ID-13547.news.uni-berlin.de>, James Cameron wrote: > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/ > ‘Boys will be boys so let them play war games with toy guns’ > By Tony Halpin, Education Editor > FOR more than three decades earnest staff in nurseries and primary > schools have banned boys from acting out war games and superhero > fantasies in the playground wielding pretend guns and swords. > But experts at a conference in London today will be told that that > approach is a mistake. Boys and girls should be allowed to play their > violent games and may even suffer harm if they cannot. Penny Holland, > senior lecturer in early childhood studies at London Metropolitan > University, says that boys have fallen victim to a politically correct > dogma that is ignoring their need for boisterous rough-and-tumble > play. > Some become disruptive and live up to a "bad boy" image because they > have been told off constantly for playing in a way that nursery staff > and teachers, most of whom are female, regard as unacceptable. > A new book by Ms Holland, We Don?t Play with Guns Here, urges > early-years centres to reconsider the ban on "war, weapon, and > superhero play", arguing that boys will be boys. > There is said to be no evidence of a decline in their desire to play > violent games despite 30 years of official disapproval. Boys continued > to play behind the backs of staff, even when they had been told it was > wrong. > "It is very much part of them making sense of the world. It relates to > timeless themes of the struggle between good and evil," she told The > Times. > "It seems to represent a developmental need to play with these things > and my feeling is that it is counter-productive to work against that. > You can see in some situations, where there has been rigorous > enforcement of zero tolerance, that it marginalises these children > because their interests are so squarely rejected. If they are > constantly receiving negative responses to their play interests, with > people saying ?No, we don?t play with guns here?, they absorb the > sense that they are bad boys. They seek negative attention and it > becomes a self-perpetuating cycle." > Ms Holland said that the zero-tolerance approach had emerged from > pacifist and feminist movements in the 1960s and 1970s that assumed > that "the spiral of male violence" could be broken by preventing boys > from playing aggressive games. But there was no evidence that boys > were more or less likely to grow into aggressive men because of the > games they played. > Her book observes that nurseries that had relaxed their ban on guns, > swords, and violent games had reported that boys had more fun > together, made closer friendships, and became more creative in other > areas of play, such as dressing up as princes in fairy tales. Most > such nurseries found that levels of real fighting between boys > declined. > Staff who stood back and watched children play-fighting, instead of > intervening, discovered that they were much more careful to avoid > injuries than had been believed, the book says. The children often > agreed rules of the game between themselves to ensure that nobody got > hurt. "This has particularly been observed in episodes of sword > fighting and superhero-karate style fight scenarios," Ms Holland > writes. > Yet because of their prejudices, staff in many centres felt > uncomfortable about allowing boys to make guns and swords out of toy > bricks and other materials. "At best, do we respond to their energy > and exuberance as irritatingly alien and male? At worst, do we see > them as wife-beaters, armed robbers and rapists in the making?" Ms > Holland writes. "Do our sincere desires to eradicate violence cloud > our ability to interpret their behaviour as play?" A refusal to accept > war games meant nursery staff were missing opportunities to talk to > children about events they witnessed on television. Many nurseries > reported seeing children pretending to be aircraft and knocking down > tower blocks made of bricks after the September 11 terrorist attack in > New York. > Ms Holland told The Times: "The idea that they can leave these things > behind at the nursery gate has to be changed, and that is one reason > why practitioners are challenging zero tolerance." > DEBATE > What signal does this send to our children? > E-mail your views to deb…@thetimes.co.uk

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -James Cameron wrote in message … >http://www.timesonline.co.uk/ >’Boys will be boys so let them play war games with toy guns’ >By Tony Halpin, Education Editor >FOR more than three decades earnest staff in nurseries and primary >schools have banned boys from acting out war games and superhero >fantasies in the playground wielding pretend guns and swords. >But experts at a conference in London today will be told that that >approach is a mistake. Boys and girls should be allowed to play their >violent games and may even suffer harm if they cannot. Penny Holland, >senior lecturer in early childhood studies at London Metropolitan >University, says that boys have fallen victim to a politically correct >dogma that is ignoring their need for boisterous rough-and-tumble >play.

It wasn’t just feminists, and it wasn’t just 30 years.  My parents banned any gun-play or war-play almost 50 years ago.  And although they would later identify with feminism, at that time they were basically just liberals.  They grew up in the Suffragist era. >Some become disruptive and live up to a "bad boy" image because they >have been told off constantly for playing in a way that nursery staff >and teachers, most of whom are female, regard as unacceptable. >A new book by Ms Holland, We Don

Filed under: Feminism

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