Fatal Flaws? Name your favorites.
Question:
Gawd! There are so many! 
Here goes: . Seriously disorganised . Seriously unpunctual . Financial mismanager . Untrustworthy . Dishonest . Unsupportable and hopeless Depressive . Obsessive/compulsive . Psychotic . Serious feminist (as in Titanic style feminism) . Shocking housekeeper, or just as bad . Over-meticulous housekeeper . No real interest in sex . And s-o-o-o-ooooo on. Hey, no wonder I don’t want a co-resident woman anymore! Life is much more fun without! :):) Ross Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gawd! There are so many! Here goes: . Seriously disorganised . Seriously unpunctual . Financial mismanager . Untrustworthy . Dishonest . Unsupportable and hopeless Depressive . Obsessive/compulsive . Psychotic . Serious feminist (as in Titanic style feminism) . Shocking housekeeper, or just as bad . Over-meticulous housekeeper . No real interest in sex . And s-o-o-o-ooooo on. Hey, no wonder I don’t want a co-resident woman anymore! Life is much more fun without! :):) Ross
Hey Ross, how come you didn’t tell me you were married to my ex! Seriously now, isn’t the biggest issue poor communication? This sounds so cliched, but it’s true. Keeping in resentment or any other corrosive emotions will wreck a marriage just as surely as infidelity. Big Surf Posted & Mailed Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I never thought of setting the date and time to continue a hot discussion. I’ve been told that I have a problem communicating, but in the heat of the argument I clam up also. It takes me too long to identify how I feel and respond without being afraid of the reaction to what I said. By the time I realize what I want to say, he thinks everything is all fine and dandy. So if I bring it up again, I get ‘What is this, we had that straightened out already." Plus, written communication has always been easier for me, and sometimes I’d use it to open up a discussion. Once it’s been started, it was much easier to talk about, and that worked for a while. Then he told me he’d rather not hear anything than read it, (including love notes), so I stopped writing and tried talking about it more. I still wasn’t enough-I guess my editing some comments to keep from saying something that would really hurt and serve no purpose wasn’t a good thing! Dawn "Always be a first rate version of yourself instead of a second rate version of somebody else."
In a business seminar long long ago, far far away, we were told different people have different ways of communicating. Some want to speak face-to-face, others on the phone, and still others thru memos. Using the style people prefer increases the chance of communicating with them. It seems to me that if early in the relationship the two of you had been at a joint counseling session, the counselor might have helped you both to learn to communicate effectively. Sometimes we just don’t notice these little nuances and it takes a 3rd party to point it out. If I ever develop the insanity to marry again, I think I’m just gonna plan on getting marriage counseling, and not wait until things are at loggerheads. — dan "Seize the Daydream"
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Quite right. I remember one girl at the psycho end of neat freak.. She washed the kitchen floor between every course at dinner. I smoked at the time and every time I flicked an ash in the ash tray she got up and washed it…. She was the same one who on her first night at my house, got up in the middle of the night to go to the can…. went into my closet instead, messed on my shoes and then couldn’t open the door for some reason. She started howling like a banshee and terrified me and my house mates…. First time at my home was the last time too. Wanna bet she is still wondering why?? Two date wonders !! 
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Big Surf, And btw it seems "slobs" attract "tidies" and don’t kid yourself there aren’t lots of female slobs out there. I’ve found in lots of dating post-marriage you don’t need to look too hard or too long to see why some females marriages failed. There is usually some completely loopy behaviour present. And they may be quite nice folk otherwise, but you’d go mad living with them. So, why bother with that? Do what works, live apart, and save half your net worth. Ross "To each according to her needs, from each according to his ability" Mrs Karl Marx Big Surf, Communication between two seriously mis-matched people will only determine the size of the problem, it won’t cure it. Maybe there is no cure, but it’s only by clear communication that you can even determine that you have a problem at all,and its dimensions. Frankly, God knows what goes through some people’s minds. There are an awful lot of people out there who operate on instinct. They don’t know what they are going to do until they do it. It’s hard to work around this. So then things become seriously unworkable. Quite. This was the basic problem foe me; a partner who held everything in. How big the problem was was only clear when it was too late. Out of this resentment grows. Keep resentment in, let it out, it doesn’t affect the unworkable situation. I’m not so sure. If you get to it early enough, I think you have something to work with. Eg my ex was chronically untidy, to the point where our house became virtually unliveable. If she knew the consequences of this, then she may have been convinced to compromise enough to change to the degree necessary to make home life bearable. I don’t have any answers. My view? Don’t bet half your net worth on it! But everyone to their own insanity. LOL! We all bet our net worth on it, and in almost 50% of the time, we get it wrong. Big Surf Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
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Well my b/f’s the slob type and I’m the neat one….I’m not afraid to admit it. We just reached a compromise in that since he likes to spread paperwork all over and work in the floor, he just doesn’t do it in the livingroom anymore and we just keep the bedroom door closed. So he spreads out in there and has all his stacks all over the floor. My side of the bed faces the door so I don’t have to step over it. LOL But we have a clean living space in here and I just pick up the little stuff he may leave. He’s been a slob for 44 years, don’t think "I’m" gonna change him, and I took him for what he is. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Big Surf, I think you have to have a reasonable idea on the limits of change possible for most people. Actually it is usually a big fat _zero_. In your example of your wife being an un-liveable house-keeper then there just isn’t _ever_ going to be a miracle which will rectify this problem. You’re organised – she is slobby, the only solution is for you to walk around ignoring the slobbiness. Ditto financial mis-management and so on. People stay in marriages for years hoping that these problems can be resolved. They never are, except temporarily. I know of no one who has changed in any substantial way in all the time I’ve known them. Even something as simple as putting the toothpaste top back on, or cleaning their toothbrush is beyond most if they are inclined to do this. Let alone clean up the hand-basin after they have used it. (Cleaning up the hand-basin after use used to be the social convention btw back in the thirties – it sure ain’t now!) Me, I’m just grateful I don’t have to deal with female food faddism, untidiness, unpunctuality, silly mind games, etc etc etc etc etc ad nauseam anymore. And btw it seems "slobs" attract "tidies" and don’t kid yourself there aren’t lots of female slobs out there. I’ve found in lots of dating post-marriage you don’t need to look too hard or too long to see why some females marriages failed. There is usually some completely loopy behaviour present. And they may be quite nice folk otherwise, but you’d go mad living with them. So, why bother with that? Do what works, live apart, and save half your net worth. Ross "To each according to her needs, from each according to his ability" Mrs Karl Marx Big Surf, Communication between two seriously mis-matched people will only determine the size of the problem, it won’t cure it. Maybe there is no cure, but it’s only by clear communication that you can even determine that you have a problem at all,and its dimensions. Frankly, God knows what goes through some people’s minds. There are an awful lot of people out there who operate on instinct. They don’t know what they are going to do until they do it. It’s hard to work around this. So then things become seriously unworkable. Quite. This was the basic problem foe me; a partner who held everything in. How big the problem was was only clear when it was too late. Out of this resentment grows. Keep resentment in, let it out, it doesn’t affect the unworkable situation. I’m not so sure. If you get to it early enough, I think you have something to work with. Eg my ex was chronically untidy, to the point where our house became virtually unliveable. If she knew the consequences of this, then she may have been convinced to compromise enough to change to the degree necessary to make home life bearable. I don’t have any answers. My view? Don’t bet half your net worth on it! But everyone to their own insanity. LOL! We all bet our net worth on it, and in almost 50% of the time, we get it wrong. Big Surf Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
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Big Surf, I think you have to have a reasonable idea on the limits of change possible for most people. Actually it is usually a big fat _zero_. In your example of your wife being an un-liveable house-keeper then there just isn’t _ever_ going to be a miracle which will rectify this problem. You’re organised – she is slobby, the only solution is for you to walk around ignoring the slobbiness. Ditto financial mis-management and so on. People stay in marriages for years hoping that these problems can be resolved. They never are, except temporarily. I know of no one who has changed in any substantial way in all the time I’ve known them. Even something as simple as putting the toothpaste top back on, or cleaning their toothbrush is beyond most if they are inclined to do this. Let alone clean up the hand-basin after they have used it. (Cleaning up the hand-basin after use used to be the social convention btw back in the thirties – it sure ain’t now!) Me, I’m just grateful I don’t have to deal with female food faddism, untidiness, unpunctuality, silly mind games, etc etc etc etc etc ad nauseam anymore. And btw it seems "slobs" attract "tidies" and don’t kid yourself there aren’t lots of female slobs out there. I’ve found in lots of dating post-marriage you don’t need to look too hard or too long to see why some females marriages failed. There is usually some completely loopy behaviour present. And they may be quite nice folk otherwise, but you’d go mad living with them. So, why bother with that? Do what works, live apart, and save half your net worth. Ross "To each according to her needs, from each according to his ability" Mrs Karl Marx – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Big Surf, Communication between two seriously mis-matched people will only determine the size of the problem, it won’t cure it. Maybe there is no cure, but it’s only by clear communication that you can even determine that you have a problem at all,and its dimensions. Frankly, God knows what goes through some people’s minds. There are an awful lot of people out there who operate on instinct. They don’t know what they are going to do until they do it. It’s hard to work around this. So then things become seriously unworkable. Quite. This was the basic problem foe me; a partner who held everything in. How big the problem was was only clear when it was too late. Out of this resentment grows. Keep resentment in, let it out, it doesn’t affect the unworkable situation. I’m not so sure. If you get to it early enough, I think you have something to work with. Eg my ex was chronically untidy, to the point where our house became virtually unliveable. If she knew the consequences of this, then she may have been convinced to compromise enough to change to the degree necessary to make home life bearable. I don’t have any answers. My view? Don’t bet half your net worth on it! But everyone to their own insanity. LOL! We all bet our net worth on it, and in almost 50% of the time, we get it wrong. Big Surf Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
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Naivity and impulsivness, neither very dangerous on their own, but when combined can be very destructive. Robert M. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – /
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Good point. The problem is obviously way deeper than just whether or not two people are talking. Your second example is pretty common — beating around the bush because she is afraid to directly address the issue. It is also the sign of a hidden agenda, where she wants to get rid of you, so makes up petty little reasons why "it isn’t working", when in fact she is afraid to just come out and say what is really on her mind. I wonder if there is a way to probe and determine this quality in a person before getting married instead of after. If you met someone who demonstrated the traits below, surely you would avoid marrying her wouldn’t you? — Dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I understand what you are saying, and it should work well for people who tend to just start yelling every time they are angry. But for people who tend to avoid conflict, this technique just helps them avoid it. Another means to avoid issues is to talk about them in such round-about irrelevancies that you can’t make any progress. My s2bx is almost schizophrenic in her inability to make a logical argument. She: When you X it makes me crazy/angry/etc.! Me: Like just now? She: Yes. Me: But I wasn’t doing X, I was doing Y. She: But you’ve done X before. Me: What about X bothers you? She: Z just shows that you don’t care. Me: Weren’t we talking about X? (Or was it Y?) And so on. <flame retardant suit on I just *don’t* *buy* the stuff from "You Just Don’t Understand". There’s a vignette in there where a man and a woman are driving along a highway and and she sees a rest area coming up. She’s thirsty and wants to stop for a drink but rather than ask to stop, she asks if *he’d* like to stop. He doesn’t and she drives on thirsty. Geez! It’s like offering someone that last pork chop at dinner and then being disappointed that they take it and you don’t get it. It’s fine to offer but to get upset because you were taken up on your offer is ludicrous! "Communication" should not be a matter of one party trying to figure out the other’s enigmatic pronouncements. My s2bx’s inability to communicate isn’t about being female, it’s about not being able to communicate; about, so it seems, not even knowing what’s going on inside her own head, what she’s upset about. <suit off Chris — Rens-se-LEER is a county. RENS-se-ler is a city. R-P-I is a school!
– "Seize the Daydream"
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I understand what you are saying, and it should work well for people who tend to just start yelling every time they are angry. But for people who tend to avoid conflict, this technique just helps them avoid it.
Another means to avoid issues is to talk about them in such round-about irrelevancies that you can’t make any progress. My s2bx is almost schizophrenic in her inability to make a logical argument. She: When you X it makes me crazy/angry/etc.! Me: Like just now? She: Yes. Me: But I wasn’t doing X, I was doing Y. She: But you’ve done X before. Me: What about X bothers you? She: Z just shows that you don’t care. Me: Weren’t we talking about X? (Or was it Y?) And so on. <flame retardant suit on I just *don’t* *buy* the stuff from "You Just Don’t Understand". There’s a vignette in there where a man and a woman are driving along a highway and and she sees a rest area coming up. She’s thirsty and wants to stop for a drink but rather than ask to stop, she asks if *he’d* like to stop. He doesn’t and she drives on thirsty. Geez! It’s like offering someone that last pork chop at dinner and then being disappointed that they take it and you don’t get it. It’s fine to offer but to get upset because you were taken up on your offer is ludicrous! "Communication" should not be a matter of one party trying to figure out the other’s enigmatic pronouncements. My s2bx’s inability to communicate isn’t about being female, it’s about not being able to communicate; about, so it seems, not even knowing what’s going on inside her own head, what she’s upset about. <suit off Chris — Rens-se-LEER is a county. RENS-se-ler is a city. R-P-I is a school!
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Living the past in the present tense — anything I may have ever done that upset her was fair game for any argument. Inferiority complexes. These are absolutely insidious. My stbx spent the first 15 years of her life being told she was no good, too fat and too stupid by a drunken stepfather, and her mom did nothing to step in.
WOW! You hit the nail on the head. She has very low self esteem. I suspect that that’s one reason that our divorce is so hard — she doesn’t have the gonads to stand up to her lawyer and tell her what should happen and she’s power tripping over having primary custody and being able to tell me when I can and can’t see my kids. I worry about what it’s doing to them but hope that if she shows her colors long enough, I’ll be able to a court to see what’s happening. Chris — Rens-se-LEER is a county. RENS-se-ler is a city. R-P-I is a school!
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Pair that up with an ex who knew exactly what my deepest fears were, and would remind me of them during "conversations", and you have a marraige just waiting to fall apart. Obviously we both were poor communicators.
Apparently at one time maybe you WERE able to communicate well with him, when you were able to let him know WHAT your "deepest fears" were?? If that’s how it happened, then it’s a shame that your trust and intimate revelations were turned against you… I had confided some things to my "ex", things from my past that i was ashamed of but had paid the price for already… During fights, he dug them up and "blamed" me for them all over again, even if they happened years before i ever knew him… As my brother told me, and this seems to apply to you, too, what it sounds like is he was "pushing your buttons"… And for the resident sexists, YES, women do this to men, just as much as men to women… My brother told me, especially now during the divorce and all the guilt involved in it, to stop letting him push my buttons.. "Whenever he pushes your buttons you go ‘beep’….. Stop going ‘beep’ and he’ll stop pushing the buttons…" Easier said than done… BEEP!!
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I know that I have been guilty of withdrawing into silence but if anyone would ask why (he never did), I would say because I never want to say something that I could never take back. I hate name calling, and insult throwing. So, I would think before I spoke, usually too long . Well, I have learned to be a bit more *passionate* in my arguing.
This made me smile, Lori. My girlfriend has told me that if I’d learned to be a little more passionate (ie, yelling or throwing a dish now and then) that perhaps I’d have been able to save my marraige. She was teasing, of course, but perhaps there is a grain of truth in what she says. I was always reluctant to have a noisy fight with the ex because I remembered what it was like to hear my parents argue when I was a kid, and I didn’t want my kids to be upset. My fatal communication flaw? Being afraid to speak up. And I wish I could put my finger on why that is, but for some reason when the conversation gets down to the issue, I can’t speak up. Rational thoughts leave my head, and if I try to talk then I also start to cry. It’s at that point that I no longer make any sense and the whole thing turns into an emotionally traumatic experience. Pair that up with an ex who knew exactly what my deepest fears were, and would remind me of them during "conversations", and you have a marraige just waiting to fall apart. Obviously we both were poor communicators. Lauri in WA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -So fess up everyone, we aren’t a perfect lot, who else has fatal flaws? Lori Redman * Not to make light of your story, but I have often reflected back to * "pivotal moments" where I had a clue of a serious personality flaw * when there was still a chance for me to break it off and go separate * ways. I wonder if every relationship has those, or is it more likely * to be a memory in the divorced crowd? * * Some time back, some poster made a long series of posts about learning * only coming from painful experience. Intellectually, I disagree with * his statement, but I can’t deny that great pain can teach some strong * lessons. I think this has been a factor in killing many relationships * post divorce. If I date someone and I catch her in one of those * "fatal flaw" moments, I tend to want to break it off. * * Some of the key points of intolerance include (but are not limited * to): being lied to (even if it is a small lie), if she withdraws into * silence in a disagreement rather than engaging in a discussion about * differences. These are things that might not be seen until the * relationship has gone on for a while. The more obvious problems that * can be seen almost as early as first date need not be mentioned here. * But I think the lying and the withdrawing into silence are extremely * fatal flaws that will surely doom a relationship. Sounds like you have really grown wiser. Anyone else have any suggestions along these lines? — char*p="char*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34); } / / / (___,,,}_–= ) ) /^) ^/ _) =__ Anything is good and useful if ) ) /^/ _) (_ ) ) _ / / _) ( it’s made of chocolate. ) / )// || | )_) (_ ) < |(,,) )__) ( http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov ) || / )___) (_ _) ______(_______;;; __;;;
My real address is lauri AT crcwnet DOT com
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Igor, have I ever told you that you have one of the most irritating sig lines I’ve ever seen? — dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – * . Serious feminist (as in Titanic style feminism) What is Titanic style feminism? char*p="char*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34); } / / / (___,,,}_–= ) ) /^) ^/ _) =__ Anything is good and useful if ) ) /^/ _) (_ ) ) _ / / _) ( it’s made of chocolate. ) / )// || | )_) (_ ) < |(,,) )__) ( http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov ) || / )___) (_ _) ______(_______;;; __;;;
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Igor, A Titanic-style feminist believes "equality" is men freezing to death in the water, and women warm and safe in the life-boats. There is a lot of it about. I’d guess it is what most women believe "equality" to be – certainly an average males idea of equality is a mile away from the female idea of equality. Note that hardly any women stayed with their men on the Titanic when she went down. Sort of like a parable for modern marriage, isn’t it? Ross "To each according to her needs, from each according to his ability" Mrs Karl Marx
(snip) . Serious feminist (as in Titanic style feminism)
Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
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Big Surf, Communication between two seriously mis-matched people will only determine the size of the problem, it won’t cure it.
Maybe there is no cure, but it’s only by clear communication that you can even determine that you have a problem at all,and its dimensions. Frankly, God knows what goes through some people’s minds. There are an awful lot of people out there who operate on instinct. They don’t know what they are going to do until they do it. It’s hard to work around this. So then things become seriously unworkable.
Quite. This was the basic problem foe me; a partner who held everything in. How big the problem was was only clear when it was too late. Out of this resentment grows. Keep resentment in, let it out, it
doesn’t affect the unworkable situation. I’m not so sure. If you get to it early enough, I think you have something to work with. Eg my ex was chronically untidy, to the point where our house became virtually unliveable. If she knew the consequences of this, then she may have been convinced to compromise enough to change to the degree necessary to make home life bearable. I don’t have any answers. My view? Don’t bet half your net worth on it! But everyone to their own insanity.
LOL! We all bet our net worth on it, and in almost 50% of the time, we get it wrong. Big Surf Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
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Big Surf, Communication between two seriously mis-matched people will only determine the size of the problem, it won’t cure it. Frankly, God knows what goes through some people’s minds. There are an awful lot of people out there who operate on instinct. They don’t know what they are going to do until they do it. It’s hard to work around this. So then things become seriously unworkable. Out of this resentment grows. Keep resentment in, let it out, it doesn’t affect the unworkable situation. I don’t have any answers. My view? Don’t bet half your net worth on it! But everyone to their own insanity. Ross "no woman, no cry" (snip) Hey Ross, how come you didn’t tell me you were married to my ex! Seriously now, isn’t the biggest issue poor communication? This sounds so cliched, but it’s true. Keeping in resentment or any other corrosive emotions will wreck a marriage just as surely as infidelity. Big Surf Posted & Mailed Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
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I never thought of setting the date and time to continue a hot discussion. I’ve been told that I have a problem communicating, but in the heat of the argument I clam up also. It takes me too long to identify how I feel and respond without being afraid of the reaction to what I said. By the time I realize what I want to say, he thinks everything is all fine and dandy. So if I bring it up again, I get ‘What is this, we had that straightened out already." Plus, written communication has always been easier for me, and sometimes I’d use it to open up a discussion. Once it’s been started, it was much easier to talk about, and that worked for a while. Then he told me he’d rather not hear anything than read it, (including love notes), so I stopped writing and tried talking about it more. I still wasn’t enough-I guess my editing some comments to keep from saying something that would really hurt and serve no purpose wasn’t a good thing! Dawn "Always be a first rate version of yourself instead of a second rate version of somebody else."
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Inferiority complexes. These are absolutely insidious. My stbx spent the first 15 years of her life being told she was no good, too fat and too stupid by a drunken stepfather, and her mom did nothing to step in. I’m certainly not perfect, but even I had no chance against that kind of emotional abuse. It’s as if she kept me at arms length for the whole 7 years. She finally ended it, rather than continue to face her demons. Paul
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone else have any suggestions along these lines? Living the past in the present tense — anything I may have ever done that upset her was fair game for any argument. Chris — Rens-se-LEER is a county. RENS-se-ler is a city. R-P-I is a school!
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Setting a date & time to continue the discussion is a good idea. I’m a "withdraw into silence" type, simply because I have to think about what I’m going to say before I say it. And apparently I’m not always a rapid-fire thinker. And my ex is one to get angry & leave…so he would be going out the door, and I’d be quiet and thinking…When he got back, if I asked if we could continue the discussion, he would tell me I was "nagging." So what is it, men…silence? Or nagging? Sometimes I think it’s a no-win situation. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know that I have been guilty of withdrawing into silence but if anyone would ask why (he never did), I would say because I never want to say something that I could never take back. I hate name calling, and insult throwing. So, I would think before I spoke, usually too long . Actually, in the communication skills class I took with my ex – we learned that it was ok to put off an argument, as long a specific day and time was determined to talk about it. This way, we both would have time to gather our thoughts and speak in a rational matter to each other. The subject would then be dropped until that point and we would both be able to not take it personally for the time being. Can’t say she actually used the technique, but I tried very hard to…..Seemed like if both parties can agree to it – it would work pretty well… –*Rob
– http://netnow.micron.net/~kgibson Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
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I think trying to understand where the other person is coming from is part of our growth. So as we go forward to our next relationship, we understand ourselves and our *little*flaws and what flaws to watch out for. As I said, part of my growth is understanding how communicate better and not to avoid conflict. But I have to say that I never knew any issue to be sooo bad that I resorted to housework at 1:00am! I do have my limits…… Lori Redman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I understand what you are saying, and it should work well for people who tend to just start yelling every time they are angry. But for people who tend to avoid conflict, this technique just helps them avoid it. In the few months predivorce (defined as when she left), I could sense she was angry or unhappy, but every time I’d suggest we should sit down and talk about it, she would make a series of excuses as to why that could not be done. She said the house was a mess and had to be cleaned first. Then after it was cleaned, she said she was too tired. I later discovered this was the same pattern she had used in her previous marriage — she would stay up ’til 1 AM ironing towels, T-shirts, sheets and underwear until her first husband would go to sleep. She used housecleaning as an excuse to avoid discussing things. She was accustomed to making decisions unilaterally (without consulting me), and her decision to leave me and buy her own place was no exception. I didn’t find out until she all but completed the deal. In her defense (albeit a small one), I think I have learned why _some_ people behave as she did. I am the sort of person who can be very logical and tenacious in an argument (or discussion). She probably felt that there was no point "discussing" anything with me, because it would always end up my way. After some time pondering what it must seem like from others’ perspective, I learned I needed to soften up my discussions in order to encourage participation. However, I still think her avoidance flaw was so deep as to have killed _any_ relationship, even one where the spouse is not at all intimidating in logical ability. So, I learned two things, to avoid women like her, and to be a better and non-intimidating participant in discussions. I practice this on my children, and emphasize to them that their _feelings_ are important. It was a long time before I learned to say "You hurt my feelings" rather than mask it with indignation or logic to show someone the error of her ways. But oddly now, postdivorce, I find I am the one doing the avoiding. I want as little to do with her as possible. If she tries to make conversation, I listen but usually don’t respond in kind. I let the conversation drop, and just stick to business. I cannot erase my contempt for her. — Dan I know that I have been guilty of withdrawing into silence but if anyone would ask why (he never did), I would say because I never want to say something that I could never take back. I hate name calling, and insult throwing. So, I would think before I spoke, usually too long . Actually, in the communication skills class I took with my ex – we learned that it was ok to put off an argument, as long a specific day and time was determined to talk about it. This way, we both would have time to gather our thoughts and speak in a rational matter to each other. The subject would then be dropped until that point and we would both be able to not take it personally for the time being. Can’t say she actually used the technique, but I tried very hard to…..Seemed like if both parties can agree to it – it would work pretty well… –*Rob
Response:
I understand what you are saying, and it should work well for people who tend to just start yelling every time they are angry. But for people who tend to avoid conflict, this technique just helps them avoid it. In the few months predivorce (defined as when she left), I could sense she was angry or unhappy, but every time I’d suggest we should sit down and talk about it, she would make a series of excuses as to why that could not be done. She said the house was a mess and had to be cleaned first. Then after it was cleaned, she said she was too tired. I later discovered this was the same pattern she had used in her previous marriage — she would stay up ’til 1 AM ironing towels, T-shirts, sheets and underwear until her first husband would go to sleep. She used housecleaning as an excuse to avoid discussing things. She was accustomed to making decisions unilaterally (without consulting me), and her decision to leave me and buy her own place was no exception. I didn’t find out until she all but completed the deal. In her defense (albeit a small one), I think I have learned why _some_ people behave as she did. I am the sort of person who can be very logical and tenacious in an argument (or discussion). She probably felt that there was no point "discussing" anything with me, because it would always end up my way. After some time pondering what it must seem like from others’ perspective, I learned I needed to soften up my discussions in order to encourage participation. However, I still think her avoidance flaw was so deep as to have killed _any_ relationship, even one where the spouse is not at all intimidating in logical ability. So, I learned two things, to avoid women like her, and to be a better and non-intimidating participant in discussions. I practice this on my children, and emphasize to them that their _feelings_ are important. It was a long time before I learned to say "You hurt my feelings" rather than mask it with indignation or logic to show someone the error of her ways. But oddly now, postdivorce, I find I am the one doing the avoiding. I want as little to do with her as possible. If she tries to make conversation, I listen but usually don’t respond in kind. I let the conversation drop, and just stick to business. I cannot erase my contempt for her. — Dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know that I have been guilty of withdrawing into silence but if anyone would ask why (he never did), I would say because I never want to say something that I could never take back. I hate name calling, and insult throwing. So, I would think before I spoke, usually too long . Actually, in the communication skills class I took with my ex – we learned that it was ok to put off an argument, as long a specific day and time was determined to talk about it. This way, we both would have time to gather our thoughts and speak in a rational matter to each other. The subject would then be dropped until that point and we would both be able to not take it personally for the time being. Can’t say she actually used the technique, but I tried very hard to…..Seemed like if both parties can agree to it – it would work pretty well… –*Rob
Response:
I know that I have been guilty of withdrawing into silence but if anyone would ask why (he never did), I would say because I never want to say something that I could never take back. I hate name calling, and insult throwing. So, I would think before I spoke, usually too long .
Actually, in the communication skills class I took with my ex – we learned that it was ok to put off an argument, as long a specific day and time was determined to talk about it. This way, we both would have time to gather our thoughts and speak in a rational matter to each other. The subject would then be dropped until that point and we would both be able to not take it personally for the time being. Can’t say she actually used the technique, but I tried very hard to…..Seemed like if both parties can agree to it – it would work pretty well… –*Rob
Response:
I believe that it’s a mistake to go to sleep without resolving the disagreement, or at least discussing and reassuring one another that you still love each other even tho there might be a disagreement… I don’t mean lie in bed and get in a big fight before you go to sleep… Maybe it IS a big problem that is going to take a lot of time and working out, but what about something like "we’ll discuss this tomorrow" followed by an honest "i love you" (unconditionally, even if you ARE pissed about something)…and a hug… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know that I have been guilty of withdrawing into silence but if anyone would ask why (he never did), I would say because I never want to say something that I could never take back. I hate name calling, and insult throwing. So, I would think before I spoke, usually too long . Actually, in the communication skills class I took with my ex – we learned that it was ok to put off an argument, as long a specific day and time was determined to talk about it. This way, we both would have time to gather our thoughts and speak in a rational matter to each other. The subject would then be dropped until that point and we would both be able to not take it personally for the time being. Can’t say she actually used the technique, but I tried very hard to…..Seemed like if both parties can agree to it – it would work pretty well… –*Rob
Response:
I think we have to listen to those alarm bells that go off in our heads. They mean something, it’s your intuition telling you to watch out. I can vividly remember a couple of times where I felt the bells go off but I brushed it off cause I was "in luuuuve". I know that I have been guilty of withdrawing into silence but if anyone would ask why (he never did), I would say because I never want to say something that I could never take back. I hate name calling, and insult throwing. So, I would think before I spoke, usually too long . Well, I have learned to be a bit more *passionate* in my arguing. So fess up everyone, we aren’t a perfect lot, who else has fatal flaws? Lori Redman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – * Not to make light of your story, but I have often reflected back to * "pivotal moments" where I had a clue of a serious personality flaw * when there was still a chance for me to break it off and go separate * ways. I wonder if every relationship has those, or is it more likely * to be a memory in the divorced crowd? * * Some time back, some poster made a long series of posts about learning * only coming from painful experience. Intellectually, I disagree with * his statement, but I can’t deny that great pain can teach some strong * lessons. I think this has been a factor in killing many relationships * post divorce. If I date someone and I catch her in one of those * "fatal flaw" moments, I tend to want to break it off. * * Some of the key points of intolerance include (but are not limited * to): being lied to (even if it is a small lie), if she withdraws into * silence in a disagreement rather than engaging in a discussion about * differences. These are things that might not be seen until the * relationship has gone on for a while. The more obvious problems that * can be seen almost as early as first date need not be mentioned here. * But I think the lying and the withdrawing into silence are extremely * fatal flaws that will surely doom a relationship. Sounds like you have really grown wiser. Anyone else have any suggestions along these lines? — char*p="char*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34); } / / / (___,,,}_–= ) ) /^) ^/ _) =__ Anything is good and useful if ) ) /^/ _) (_ ) ) _ / / _) ( it’s made of chocolate. ) / )// || | )_) (_ ) < |(,,) )__) ( http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov ) || / )___) (_ _) ______(_______;;; __;;;
Response:
Anyone else have any suggestions along these lines?
Living the past in the present tense — anything I may have ever done that upset her was fair game for any argument. Chris — Rens-se-LEER is a county. RENS-se-ler is a city. R-P-I is a school!
Response:
Filed under: Feminism
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