Christmas conflict – wife vs. mother!!! | Feminism

Christmas conflict – wife vs. mother!!!

Question:

David, I have a fiance who is 27 (28 on Saturday) who is spending his first Christmas away from his family and with mine. Ours was an easier situation, but I just wanted to let you know you aren’t alone. What’s going on is this: because you’re an only child, you mother has been especially attached to you. Throughout your childhood, and now adult years you have remained close (and have never really rebelled? I’m guessing on this but I think it’s true). She sees you as her closest companion, much like a husband/wife type relationship (without all the physical stuff of course….just the extreme closeness). For you to have any chance at having a long, successful marriage, you *must* make it clear to your mother that your wife is now your top priority. While making sure you comfort and try not to offend your mother in this difficult time. Make sure you let her know that you’ll still be close and do things together as often as before. Explain that your wife wants to have Christmas as a family this year. Make arrangements to celebrate with her either a few days before, or after (if you’re near enough, otherwise, make plans to spend Easter with her, or some other important time, so she doesn’t feel like she’s losing time to see you). One of the most important (and hardest things to do) in a marriage is breaking that bond with your parents. As the Bible says, "And he shall leave his mother and father and cleave unto her." In other words, they became their own family. You must do the same. HTH Jenny ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "There is a place on a woman you can touch to drive her crazy–her heart." ~~Melanie Griffith in Milk Money Cassio…@aol.com or jbr…@mcla.mass.edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In article <881775578.1900150…@dejanews.com>, david_l…@mailexcite.com wrote: > I have been married for 2 1/2 years, and before that we lived > together for 2 years. Three of our first four Christmases together were > spent with my family. One year (before we were married), I went to my > family’s gathering while my then-fiancee chose to stay home. This year, > my wife has made it clear for months that she does not want to go to my > family’s gathering, but would like just the two of us and our dog : ) to > celebrate at home (her family does not celebrate Christmas at all). My > wife is not very comfortable around my family – and has an especially > hard time getting along with one of my aunts – which may have something > to do with this, but I know she also wants us to celebrate Christmas on > our own, as a family, for the first time. At first I was very > offended – in my 27 years, I’ve never been away from my family on > Christmas. I figured I would go without her – which she suggested, > although I knew it would really hurt her if I did it. Then the thought > of being away from her on Christmas day really started to upset me. I > decided I would stay with her after all. A difficult decision, made more > so by the fact that we spent this Thanksgiving with her family. I let my > mother know a few days ago, and she went ballistic – screaming, guilt > trips, the whole bit. She enlisted her sister and husband to call me and > try to convince me to change my mind. All this has been emotionally > traumatic for me – I am far from assertive, and am very sensitive to > other people’s anger, especially my relatives. I’ve come close to > waivering, but so far I’m sticking to my guns on this one. Things are > especially complicated because I am the only child of a single mother, so > we’ve been extremely (perhaps unhealthily) close, and my mother has > always viewed me as her "companion" at family gatherings. Most every one > else had a spouse, she always just had me. She has had a very hard time > accepting the fact that I am married, and that I must consider my wife > first, that my wife and I are now a family. It’s very difficult for me > to be caught in a power struggle between my wife and mother, and at > various times I’ve offended each of them by siding with the other one > during a conflict. Lately, I’ve come to realize that my marriage may be > in some trouble, and that it’s crucial for me to make an effort to put my > wife first. So, our spending Christmas alone together seems pretty > important. But my family, especially my mother, has made me feel like an > evil, horrible person for wanting this. My mother insists that she’s not > asking too much, and views our desire to spend Christmas alone at home as > absurd, which really hurts me. Has any one gone through this sort > of thing? Can you offer advice?

David, Here are a few thoughts from a grinch. First of all I am sympathetic to your problem. My wife and my parents do not "play well together" either. This is a problem that only seems to be getting worse not better. One component of this probably has to do with my parents fearing that they would "lose" me to my wife. Unfortunately this fear is causing them to lose me. If they really wanted to keep close to me then they should work on improving their relationship with my wife. I suspect that strategy would also be true for your situation. Next, I think you need to consider what is really special about Christmas. For me the special thing is that it is a time when extended families come together. As such, it doesn’t make sense for you and your spouse to forgo family Christmas in exchange for the 2 of you to be together. Presumably, you two could find another time to celebrate together.So just from a point of logistics I think you should spend time with your extended family. As for your wife, I think she should go with you to see your extended family. She should do this as a gift to you. It may not be pleasant for her. She probably will have to work hard to get along with everyone. But I think it is real important for you two to do these things together. Do them as a team. You need to acknowledge how unpleasant this is for her and praise her and thank her for her sacrafices. Also if your wife does not participate in your extended family Christmas this year, then it will only be harder for her to participate next year. The gap between your family and your wife will get larger. My marriage has not been doing well for a while. I suspect that part of the problem is that my wife and I do too many things by ourselves. I fear that Christmas may be the start of a similar trend for you. As for your mother, she sounds pretty childish. My guess is that she has always been that way and that the BEST you can hope for is that over the YEARS she will grow up. Your wife needs to accept that dealing with your mother is part of the cost of being married to you. If all your mother asks is that you attend Christmas with your extented family, instead of staying home with your wife, I think that is a small price to pay. As an aside, you and your wife might consider staying in a nice hotel near your family. This way you can see your family and have some time alone together. After your wife socializes for a while she can always pull the old "I got a headache" ruse and she can retreat to the hotel. Good Luck, Steve

Response:

Randy Poe wrote: >I think Dick’s point was something like this: > Man having sex with woman while teenage son is next door… mother-

<snip> Yeap, something along those lines. (thanx, Randi.) >And I think I would have closed the door, too.

I asked, insisted, and she refused to close the freekin’ door. Then I headed for the couch and she made a BIG scene with beggin and cryin’ involved. We were waitin’ for over a year for that moment, and I exhibited poor judgement when I went back next to her, but we stopped fuckin’ despite her tryin’ to get me to. >Makes me wonder if there was just a little alcohol involved or other >judgement-impairing substances.

Nah, not the case. I hardly drink a beer every once-in-a-pink-moon. Not that night though! And, even if say, the subject(s) had a drink, what that has to do with female’s insistence to leave the doors open? Do you think a beer would of excused her to make her partner lose sex because of her miseducated teen? I don’t think she should be excused even in such a scenario. And I said it before, that woman is RULED by the teen even during the day. Every day and night. Not just that first night. Sometimes, that 13 years old teen sleeps in the same bed with her. Is there any wonder that he feels jealous? Shit! why do women allow such conflict of interests to occur? A smarter woman keeps boyfriends and teen issues separated. Not her. Because, like I most women in this group will tell ya, "a teen always comes first." Well, if they prefer it that way, let them. Hell, let their teen cum first . . . but leave me out of it. — Steel D. – - – Excuse moi; I meant to write, come first – - – Yummy Food For Usenet Email Spiders: hax…@scican.net, d…@bga.com, tbright…@aol.com, wayti…@aol.com, ccsu0…@earthlink.net Or, let’s try this in reverse: ccsu0…@earthlink.net, wayti…@aol.com, tbright…@aol.com, d…@bga.com, hax…@scican.net Go on, become a flamer and get on this list.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Steel D. wrote: > Wakanyeja Makah (wakany…@iktomi.gov) wrote: > <snip for brevity> > >Then it appears you have your priorities straight. You should NEVER be made > >to feel you have to choose between your mother and wife. Your wife is your > >life-partner. This doesn’t mean that you need to spend EVERY holiday away > >from MOM…just that you and your wife need time to build your own family > >and traditions. > Hmmm… > – A while ago, you’ve criticized me, for interfering in between the > relations between a mother and her teen son. You’ve said stuff > along the lines that I shouldn’t of felt jealous, and that mother-son > relation ALWAYS should come first. > Okay. I’ve kept my calm down and let you get away. > – Above, you are advising this man to put his own mother *second* > after his wife! > So you see, here we have a very similar situation: > Mother —-> Son > Son —-> Mother > Why is it that you, feminists, when it’s in the woman’s interest you’re > insisting on having a double standard? Here it is, above! > – When it’s the wife’s interest – here you’re insisting the man choose > between his own mother or his wife. > – Why don’t you give the same advice when it’s in the man’s interest? > Does this man *really* have to choose between his mother and his wife? > What if this man’s mother is helplessly old and /or sick?!? … Why > chose wife and dump his mom? is that ’cause wife is more important than > mom? > – If you think it’s cool to chose one or another, how about you’ll tell > a mother of a teen to choose between her teen and her newly boyfriend? > To me, this Mother <-> Son and Son <-> Mother is a close enough issue > to ridicule an obvious, feminist double standard here. > Kakah Makah? I detect an amount of unfairness here and I don’t like it. > – Steel D. > – - – > But then, I’ve said this all along: feminism isn’t about "equality."

For crying out loud, can you ever see beyond your own personal situation? The situation you’ve been going on and on about concerns a teenage son and his mother, not a grown man and his mother. We have heard, ad nauseum, how unfairly you were treated by this woman, and most posters have agreed that it was a ridiculously unbalanced relationship, and that certainly the woman you were involved with was waaaaaaay overboard in catering to her son. There is quite a difference between raising a child/teenager and living every minute of your life for them, and most posts agree that the latter is not at all healthy, beneficial, fair, whatever for anyone involved. When my son is grown and married there is no way I would expect him to put me before his wife. My idea of a parent/child relationship at that stage in life would involve _each_ of us living our own lives. Julie….thinking it’s way past time we quit beating the dead horse!

Response:

Julie wrote: >For crying out loud, can you ever see beyond your own personal >situation? The situation you’ve been going on and on about concerns a >teenage son and his mother, not a grown man and his mother.

Hey you, over there, "crying out loud": stop crying, and start making some points and sense. >When my son is grown and married there is no way I would expect him to >put me before his wife. My idea of a parent/child relationship at that >stage in life would involve _each_ of us living our own lives.

I wanna see you saying this when you’ll be the ill mother of your son! I don’t subscribe to the idea that, your son can neglect you when you’ll be older – in the favor of his girlfriend’s 17 years old daughter who can damn well take a walk to the deli and buy herself a diet coke. See ya. — Steel D. – - – This is a "Missing, Deadbeat Tagline." It didn’t WANT to be in here. – - – Become A Flamer And Get On This List: wayti…@aol.com, ccsu0…@earthlink.net, sem…@maine.rr.com, procam…@aol.com, tbright…@aol.com, your.email@here

Response:

Randy Poe wrote:

<snip> > That said, I’d have to agree that a teenage son can get his own > drink of water in the middle of the night. The whole situation > definitely sounded like mom was a little overboard on the mother- > son relationship, and this is not a kid who’s going to grow up > with very healthy relationships with women. And I think I would > have closed the door, too. Makes me wonder if there was just > a little alcohol involved or other judgement-impairing substances. > - Randy

Yeah, but bear in mind who told the story (a fiction writer who will not use his real name). It probably never happened. Just pure fiction. And sure, some impaired judgment was very likely a part of it. A made up fiction story designed to troll and start controversy. — Dan

Response:

Dan Daugherty wrote: >Yeah, but bear in mind who told the story (a fiction writer who will not >use his real name). It probably never happened. Just pure fiction.

Why would I bother to sit down and say it if it didn’t happen? Because of my lack of Email address that prevents me from getting unsolicited commercial spam or mailbombs? no, I *did* include it once, and I got mailbombed. Should I include it? No thanks! >And sure, some impaired judgment was very likely a part of it. >A made up fiction story designed to troll and start controversy.

Re-read the responses from most women here You saw what the current trend regarding "kids/teens first" is. If you think my story was just fiction and it doesn’t happen in real life — just picture the women who called me "egocentric" and "just jealous on the kid", and these are the ones who won’t hesitate to send you out in the cold if you don’t suck on their teens. How old are you, guy? you sound like a 25 years old pimple face student who hasn’t seen much so far. Let Daddy explain some things to ya … son. Mothers KILL for their babies. Even when they’re teens. Age makes no difference. So grow up, and don’t doubt my experience. It happened, and it will continue happening because baby boomers are worshiping The Cult Of The Kid. That’s why no one wants to get involved with women who have kids from previous marriages. Sorry to have broken ‘da bad news to ya, pal. But someone, obviously, had to do it…!! – Steel D. – - – Become A Flamer And Get On This List: wayti…@aol.com, ccsu0…@earthlink.net, sem…@maine.rr.com, procam…@aol.com, tbright…@aol.com, your.email@here

Response:

Jean Coyle wrote: >heck, there’s a nice little group of three women available who’ll >NEVER put their kid ahead of you… happy dating !!!

Stobborn-Selfish – No father-Mom-With-A-Lonely-Life , My story isn’t about "kids." It’s about a middle aged TEENAGER. If you want to take things to extremes to prove your point, be it! But that’s not the way you will ever motivate me to want you and your kids. So Jean? I think I told you this before: go raise your kids and neglect new men, hon. Females with no fathers to their kids who have your attitude – will never be able to keep a guy. You have nothing to offer but EXCUSES as to *why* you can neglect a guy. I don’t doubt the validity of your excuses, honey. But, so should you not doubt the validity that, generally, men want a little bit more than you having a kid strapped around your neck at all times. – Steel D. – - – A Bunch Of Baby Boomers And Their Cult Of The Kid. – - – Become A Flamer And Get On This List: wayti…@aol.com, ccsu0…@earthlink.net, sem…@maine.rr.com, procam…@aol.com, tbright…@aol.com, your.email@here

Response:

Well, maybe it would sound better to me if it said "Christmas shouldn’t be a time for conflicts". Christmas, unfortunately, is probably the time when more conflicts occur than any other. I agree – stay at home with your wife this Christmas. Your mother is still going to love you, even if she’s p’d off for a while. Especially since you think you may be having marriage problems – going to your mother for Christmas may be the last straw for your wife. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -EflatCat wrote in message <348EF233.FAAFE…@mxixtxrxe.org>… >(snip) …as we all know Christmas time is not the time >for conflicts. I don’t know the whole situation and I won’t pretend I do so >if my advice seems off key and out of touch please disregard it. You should >probably stay at home with your family for Christmas. Stay with your wife >and your dog for they are your family now.

Response:

Wakanyeja Makah (wakany…@iktomi.gov) wrote:

<snip for brevity> >Then it appears you have your priorities straight. You should NEVER be = made >to feel you have to choose between your mother and wife. Your wife is = your >life-partner. This doesn’t mean that you need to spend EVERY holiday = away >from MOM…just that you and your wife need time to build your own = family >and traditions.

Hmmm… – A while ago, you’ve criticized me, for interfering in between the relations between a mother and her teen son. You’ve said stuff along the lines that I shouldn’t of felt jealous, and that mother-son relation ALWAYS should come first. Okay. I’ve kept my calm down and let you get away. – Above, you are advising this man to put his own mother *second* after his wife! So you see, here we have a very similar situation: Mother —-> Son Son —-> Mother Why is it that you, feminists, when it’s in the woman’s interest you’re insisting on having a double standard? Here it is, above! – When it’s the wife’s interest – here you’re insisting the man choose between his own mother or his wife. – Why don’t you give the same advice when it’s in the man’s interest? Does this man *really* have to choose between his mother and his wife? What if this man’s mother is helplessly old and /or sick?!? … Why chose wife and dump his mom? is that ’cause wife is more important than mom? – If you think it’s cool to chose one or another, how about you’ll tell a mother of a teen to choose between her teen and her newly boyfriend? To me, this Mother <-> Son and Son <-> Mother is a close enough issue to ridicule an obvious, feminist double standard here. Kakah Makah? I detect an amount of unfairness here and I don’t like it. – Steel D. – - – But then, I’ve said this all along: feminism isn’t about "equality."

Response:

Dick The ‘difference’ you see in some comments about the relationships between mother/son(child) has to do more with the situations, not because someone is/is not a feminist, IMO. The difference in what a parent should do for/expect from a minor and what they should do for/expect from an adult is a big one and contributes more to the difference in the comments rather than anyone’s political leanings. JMO Tracey

Response:

On Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:19:49 GMT, stee…@no.ads (Steel D.) wrote: >Why is it that you, feminists, when it’s in the woman’s interest you’re >insisting on having a double standard?

Excuse me but aren’t both the mother and the wife women? Victoria "Lee" For address go here: http://scican.net/~haxton/address.html

Response:

I know you are here for advice so I’m going to butt my head in here again. This whole holiday season I’ve been beating myself that I didn’t start shopping in June, So the holiday ,be happy, hohoho, merry Christmas attitude just is not with me right now:). But heres whats happening with our family. My mom and my fiance are in an invisible power strugle over my attentions over the holiday.My mom decided at the last minute ( like she does every year) That my wishes just aren’t supposed to be that way, and I need to do everything her way. My first thought was to e-mail her back and tell her to grow up, Then I got the brain storm of a life "Tell her the Truth" So I did, And I gave in a little at the same time.Originally they had planned to meet with the whole family the Saturday before Christmas, Which I agreed was fine with me. Because my fiance’s family gets together Christmas Eve Evening. Well So my mom writes and wants us to come up Christmas Day , I tell her No we are staying at home Christmas Day. So I agreed to Bring up some McDonalds for lunch Christmas Eve, but that we didn’t want a whole family mob scene. I haven’t gotten a reply from that yet. I think I’m being fair. What do you think? Maybe this will help you in your situation also:) Good Luck Susan

Response:

On 13 Dec 97 00:47:03 GMT, "Flowerrr" <abcd_cpri…@hsonline.net> wrote: >I know you are here for advice so I’m going to butt my head in here again. >This whole holiday season I’ve been beating myself that I didn’t start >shopping in June, So the holiday ,be happy, hohoho, merry Christmas >attitude just is not with me right now:). But heres whats happening with >our family. My mom and my fiance are in an invisible power strugle over my >attentions over the holiday.My mom decided at the last minute ( like she >does every year) That my wishes just aren’t supposed to be that way, and I >need to do everything her way. My first thought was to e-mail her back and >tell her to grow up, Then I got the brain storm of a life "Tell her the >Truth" So I did, And I gave in a little at the same time.

<snip> The only way to have a reasonable Christmas is to announce YOUR plans in September and stick with them. You can try to make everyone happy but it just won’t work as you are finding out. Victoria "Lee" For address go here: http://scican.net/~haxton/address.html

Response:

You made the right decision, stay with it. It is too bad that your mother has had a tough time in life. But bottom line, top line, and all in between is that your primary concern should be your wife. anyone david_l…@mailexcite.com wrote in message

<881775578.1900150…@dejanews.com>… | I have been married for 2 1/2 years, and before that we lived |together for 2 years. Three of our first four Christmases together were |spent with my family. One year (before we were married), I went to my |family’s gathering while my then-fiancee chose to stay home. This year, |my wife has made it clear for months that she does not want to go to my |family’s gathering, but would like just the two of us and our dog : ) to |celebrate at home (her family does not celebrate Christmas at all). My |wife is not very comfortable around my family – and has an especially |hard time getting along with one of my aunts – which may have something |to do with this, but I know she also wants us to celebrate Christmas on |our own, as a family, for the first time. At first I was very |offended – in my 27 years, I’ve never been away from my family on |Christmas. I figured I would go without her – which she suggested, |although I knew it would really hurt her if I did it. Then the thought |of being away from her on Christmas day really started to upset me. I |decided I would stay with her after all. A difficult decision, made more |so by the fact that we spent this Thanksgiving with her family. I let my |mother know a few days ago, and she went ballistic – screaming, guilt |trips, the whole bit. She enlisted her sister and husband to call me and |try to convince me to change my mind. All this has been emotionally |traumatic for me – I am far from assertive, and am very sensitive to |other people’s anger, especially my relatives. I’ve come close to |waivering, but so far I’m sticking to my guns on this one. Things are |especially complicated because I am the only child of a single mother, so |we’ve been extremely (perhaps unhealthily) close, and my mother has |always viewed me as her "companion" at family gatherings. Most every one |else had a spouse, she always just had me. She has had a very hard time |accepting the fact that I am married, and that I must consider my wife |first, that my wife and I are now a family. It’s very difficult for me |to be caught in a power struggle between my wife and mother, and at |various times I’ve offended each of them by siding with the other one |during a conflict. Lately, I’ve come to realize that my marriage may be |in some trouble, and that it’s crucial for me to make an effort to put my |wife first. So, our spending Christmas alone together seems pretty |important. But my family, especially my mother, has made me feel like an |evil, horrible person for wanting this. My mother insists that she’s not |asking too much, and views our desire to spend Christmas alone at home as |absurd, which really hurts me. Has any one gone through this sort |of thing? Can you offer advice? | |Please e-mail me at | |david_l…@mailexcite.com | |Thanks all! | |David | |——————-==== Posted via Deja News ====———————– | http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

Response:

david_l…@mailexcite.com wrote: > I have been married for 2 1/2 years, and before that we lived > together for 2 years. Three of our first four Christmases together were > spent with my family.

Okay, youv’e done the family thing for the last 3 years, so what’s the problem ? Your wife has a very valid point and you should start your own traditions. My suggestions would include. Having Christmas with your wife at your place with the dog. See if your wife would be happy to have your mother over for your ‘ new ‘ xmas This year will be the first time my wifes family will join us for the festive season. Last year we travelled to her brother ( whos’ wife wanted exactly what your wife wanted ) The year before ,we went to her parents place. SOmehow we all managed to have a good time and now everyone appreciates having guests for Xmas. allan * who HATES xmas

Response:

you’ve left your mother’s house you should spend xmas with your family …..YOUR Wife !!!!!! cut the cord with your mother time to lead your own life..

Response:

On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:51:31 -0600, david_l…@mailexcite.com wrote: > I have been married for 2 1/2 years, and before that we lived >together for 2 years. Three of our first four Christmases together were >spent with my family. One year (before we were married), I went to my >family’s gathering while my then-fiancee chose to stay home. This year, >my wife has made it clear for months that she does not want to go to my >family’s gathering, but would like just the two of us and our dog : ) to >celebrate at home (her family does not celebrate Christmas at all). My >wife is not very comfortable around my family – and has an especially >hard time getting along with one of my aunts – which may have something >to do with this, but I know she also wants us to celebrate Christmas on >our own, as a family, for the first time.

This is not an unreasonable request. You are husband and wife. Extended family is nice but you also must have family time of your own. Build your own traditions. > At first I was very >offended – in my 27 years, I’ve never been away from my family on >Christmas.

It is time to cut the apron strings. You are married now. > I figured I would go without her – which she suggested, >although I knew it would really hurt her if I did it. Then the thought >of being away from her on Christmas day really started to upset me. I >decided I would stay with her after all. A difficult decision, made more >so by the fact that we spent this Thanksgiving with her family. I let my >mother know a few days ago, and she went ballistic – screaming, guilt >trips, the whole bit. She enlisted her sister and husband to call me and >try to convince me to change my mind.

This is pathological. Your mother sounds like an extremely manipulative person. Manipulative people don’t like to be told NO. Of course all of this is done under the guise of how much she LOVES you and how you are "..breaking her heart…" but in reality if she loved you she would want you to have a happy, healthy marriage. > All this has been emotionally >traumatic for me – I am far from assertive, and am very sensitive to >other people’s anger, especially my relatives. I’ve come close to >waivering, but so far I’m sticking to my guns on this one. Things are >especially complicated because I am the only child of a single mother, so >we’ve been extremely (perhaps unhealthily) close, and my mother has >always viewed me as her "companion" at family gatherings.

Obviously (by your own admission) you realize that this is a pathological attachment. You are NOT her companion or spouse. You are her child who has grown and has a wife of his own. Resolving this matter before you have children seems necessary. Would you really like your (future) children to have to deal with this psychosis? > Most every one >else had a spouse, she always just had me. She has had a very hard time >accepting the fact that I am married, and that I must consider my wife >first, that my wife and I are now a family. It’s very difficult for me >to be caught in a power struggle between my wife and mother, and at >various times I’ve offended each of them by siding with the other one >during a conflict. Lately, I’ve come to realize that my marriage may be >in some trouble, and that it’s crucial for me to make an effort to put my >wife first. So, our spending Christmas alone together seems pretty >important.

Then it appears you have your priorities straight. You should NEVER be made to feel you have to choose between your mother and wife. Your wife is your life-partner. This doesn’t mean that you need to spend EVERY holiday away from MOM…just that you and your wife need time to build your own family and traditions. > But my family, especially my mother, has made me feel like an >evil, horrible person for wanting this. My mother insists that she’s not >asking too much, and views our desire to spend Christmas alone at home as >absurd, which really hurts me.

Once again this is the Hallmark of a manipulative person/dysfunctional family. If they do not respect your decision to put your marriage first…that is THEIR problem- not yours. If you don’t stand your ground they will walk over you for the rest of your LIFE (…and your marriage isn’t going to get any easier…) Also it is natural for the manipulative person to consider your ideas/wants as ridiculous and dismiss them. When you stand up for yourself, these type of people look at YOU like YOU were the crazy one. > Has any one gone through this sort >of thing? Can you offer advice? >David

David, Having been raised by a very demanding and manipulative grandmother (…who felt I owed her the world because she chose to take me in instead of letting me go to a childrens home…and would repeatedly remind me of this fact throughout my childhood…) I have been there (somewhat). This particular grandmother was also quite abusive. Physically and emotionally. When I had children of my own she continued the abusive (mostly verbal) pattern with my young children. She also treated my husband like dirt. After several of these "toxic" encounters I phoned her to state until she could treat my husband like a human being and stop playing the emotional "conditional love" games with my children we would have NO further contact with her. (If this sounds easy…trust me…it was not…she enlisted the entire family to harass me…even at one point calling and saying if she could not see her grandchildren she would DIE…) My response to her was that VERY FEW people DIE from not getting their own way …and hanging up. The harassment was SO bad that I was forced to get a restraining order on her as she threatened if SHE could not see her grandchildren she would KILL THEM. (…nice lady, eh?) The court gave us a restraining order against her (as well as a court order for her to get professional help). The order lasted a year. A peaceful year I might add…as the restraining order also forbade any friend/family from harassing us as well. At the end of that year I called her and stated if she would treat my husband decently (and myself) and not play the emotional games with my children we could all see each other again. (…although this is always in a public place now…and the time spent is quite limited…) Amazingly, she has learned to treat my husband with respect, and she does not try to play head games with my sons any more. She KNOWS that if she did I would cut off all contact…this time…permanently. Manipulative people need to have a good healthy dose of REALITY once in a while. That the world does not revolve around them and that other people have a right to live their own lives. Good luck to you and your wife. It is NOT easy. I hope you will honor your wife and not continue to play these manipulative games… W. Makah (…been there…done that…)

Response:

David Sounds like you’ve gotten what, in my opinion, are some very tips, comments and advice. It’s hard to juggle family (parents/other relatives) and family (wife/kids) and keep everyone happy. There are so many things that should and are number one priority in our life (my list is husband/our kids/my stepkids/extended family) and not all can be number one every time. None are any more or less im- portant than the others, but different circumstances means that different people have to be ‘number one.’ Sounds as if this Christ- mas, your wife is saying (and you even feel) that your wife needs to be ‘number one’. Maybe next year or the year after, circumstances will say that your mother needs to be ‘number one.’ Being caught in the middle is never fun and having to ‘choose’ be- tween two people that you love is awful, but that is also part of being an adult. While your relationship with your mother is impor- tant she IS your mother and that relationship/bond will always be there (or should always be there. Yes, some parents do ‘disown’ their kids for lots of things, but in most cases that bond is not easily forgotten or given up.) Your marriage is much more fragile of a relationship and can be broken or badly damaged much more easily. Take care and I hope your holidays are good. Tracey

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This is a most interesting situation….I have a little expertise in what you are talking about.. so read on ,it will be short and sweet… Me and my mother never really did see eye to eye on everything but I still loved her cause ,,,she is mom… anyway my ex always tried to suck up to my mother (acted more like her daughter than her daughter in law) so she kept her foot in the door always, even after our divorce. It caused alot more problems between me and my mother because my ex was really pissed off when I remarried. It added more problems when all I would here about is poor Wendy this and poor Wendy that…Wendy (being my ex) is about to loose the house cause she doesn’t have any money ,,she is about to loose her car cause she doesn’t have any money. Now I want you to realize that my ex makes more money than I do ,,And I make right at 50,000 a year so of course my response to my mom would be… What is that supposed to mean to me ? I am not her husband anymore! That is where the real heartache begins,see ,my mother passed away with cancer and guess who was there before me? Yep ,my ex ! So …. Wish I had it to do all over again….. I think things would be different….. I also would like to say that I am sorry for any misspelled words ……. DON"T GIVE UP ON MOM…NO MATTER WHAT….. Have a great day !!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Steel D. wrote: > Wakanyeja Makah (wakany…@iktomi.gov) wrote: > <snip for brevity> > >Then it appears you have your priorities straight. You should NEVER be made > >to feel you have to choose between your mother and wife. Your wife is your > >life-partner. This doesn’t mean that you need to spend EVERY holiday away > >from MOM…just that you and your wife need time to build your own family > >and traditions. > Hmmm… > – A while ago, you’ve criticized me, for interfering in between the > relations between a mother and her teen son. You’ve said stuff > along the lines that I shouldn’t of felt jealous, and that mother-son > relation ALWAYS should come first. > Okay. I’ve kept my calm down and let you get away. > – Above, you are advising this man to put his own mother *second* > after his wife! > So you see, here we have a very similar situation: > Mother —-> Son > Son —-> Mother > Why is it that you, feminists, when it’s in the woman’s interest you’re > insisting on having a double standard? Here it is, above! > – When it’s the wife’s interest – here you’re insisting the man choose > between his own mother or his wife. > – Why don’t you give the same advice when it’s in the man’s interest? > Does this man *really* have to choose between his mother and his wife? > What if this man’s mother is helplessly old and /or sick?!? … Why > chose wife and dump his mom? is that ’cause wife is more important than > mom? > – If you think it’s cool to chose one or another, how about you’ll tell > a mother of a teen to choose between her teen and her newly boyfriend? > To me, this Mother <-> Son and Son <-> Mother is a close enough issue > to ridicule an obvious, feminist double standard here. > Kakah Makah? I detect an amount of unfairness here and I don’t like it. > – Steel D. > – - – > But then, I’ve said this all along: feminism isn’t about "equality."

Response:

In article <34916a90.2276…@news.netdirect.net>, C…@sig.4address says… >On Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:19:49 GMT, stee…@no.ads (Steel D.) wrote: >>Why is it that you, feminists, when it’s in the woman’s interest you’re >>insisting on having a double standard? >Excuse me but aren’t both the mother and the wife women?

No, there was a consistency of a sort. I think Dick’s point was something like this: Man having sex with woman while teenage son is next door… mother- son relationship seems to come first, poor man suffers. Wife wanting husband home for xmas instead of with his mom: people advise him that mother-son relationship comes SECOND. As somebody pointed out, there are MANY differences between the situation, not just the fact that the other adult partner is of a different sex. Like that in situation #1, the son is a minor. And that the couple was not married. That said, I’d have to agree that a teenage son can get his own drink of water in the middle of the night. The whole situation definitely sounded like mom was a little overboard on the mother- son relationship, and this is not a kid who’s going to grow up with very healthy relationships with women. And I think I would have closed the door, too. Makes me wonder if there was just a little alcohol involved or other judgement-impairing substances. - Randy

Response:

In article <01bd0747$1e367600$0b20f…@supprt1.hsonline.net>, abcd_cpri…@hsonline.net says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I know you are here for advice so I’m going to butt my head in here again. >This whole holiday season I’ve been beating myself that I didn’t start >shopping in June, So the holiday ,be happy, hohoho, merry Christmas >attitude just is not with me right now:). But heres whats happening with >our family. My mom and my fiance are in an invisible power strugle over my >attentions over the holiday.My mom decided at the last minute ( like she >does every year) That my wishes just aren’t supposed to be that way, and I >need to do everything her way. My first thought was to e-mail her back and >tell her to grow up, Then I got the brain storm of a life "Tell her the >Truth" So I did, And I gave in a little at the same time.Originally they >had planned to meet with the whole family the Saturday before Christmas, >Which I agreed was fine with me. Because my fiance’s family gets together >Christmas Eve Evening. Well So my mom writes and wants us to come up >Christmas Day , I tell her No we are staying at home Christmas Day. So I >agreed to Bring up some McDonalds for lunch Christmas Eve,

Good luck sorting this out. This year for Thanksgiving, we actually got the whole clan to agree to come down here to DC, and we would host. We spent weeks planning and preparing, and were really looking forward to it. Then as the date approaches, my mom starts making her own plans. They’re all coming, but she’s putting everyone up at a nearby Hyatt. And "don’t bother cooking or getting a turkey, we’ll have brunch at the hotel that day." Also, she might be going back home Thursday night. We fumed about this for awhile, figured she couldn’t let go of the holiday. Then we said, the hell with it. We were going to cook the dinner with all the trimmings, and serve it on FRIDAY. And anybody who wanted to was welcome. Well guess what? Everybody came, including Mom, and the day was great. And so was Thursday. This kind of thing has worked on xmas for us too… celebrating one christmas a little later or a little earlier. We’ve just learned not to travel on the holiday itself. Somehow it’s really depressing sitting in an airport on turkey day or xmas day. – Randy

Response:

I have been married for 2 1/2 years, and before that we lived together for 2 years. Three of our first four Christmases together were spent with my family. One year (before we were married), I went to my family’s gathering while my then-fiancee chose to stay home. This year, my wife has made it clear for months that she does not want to go to my family’s gathering, but would like just the two of us and our dog : ) to celebrate at home (her family does not celebrate Christmas at all). My wife is not very comfortable around my family – and has an especially hard time getting along with one of my aunts – which may have something to do with this, but I know she also wants us to celebrate Christmas on our own, as a family, for the first time. At first I was very offended – in my 27 years, I’ve never been away from my family on Christmas. I figured I would go without her – which she suggested, although I knew it would really hurt her if I did it. Then the thought of being away from her on Christmas day really started to upset me. I decided I would stay with her after all. A difficult decision, made more so by the fact that we spent this Thanksgiving with her family. I let my mother know a few days ago, and she went ballistic – screaming, guilt trips, the whole bit. She enlisted her sister and husband to call me and try to convince me to change my mind. All this has been emotionally traumatic for me – I am far from assertive, and am very sensitive to other people’s anger, especially my relatives. I’ve come close to waivering, but so far I’m sticking to my guns on this one. Things are especially complicated because I am the only child of a single mother, so we’ve been extremely (perhaps unhealthily) close, and my mother has always viewed me as her "companion" at family gatherings. Most every one else had a spouse, she always just had me. She has had a very hard time accepting the fact that I am married, and that I must consider my wife first, that my wife and I are now a family. It’s very difficult for me to be caught in a power struggle between my wife and mother, and at various times I’ve offended each of them by siding with the other one during a conflict. Lately, I’ve come to realize that my marriage may be in some trouble, and that it’s crucial for me to make an effort to put my wife first. So, our spending Christmas alone together seems pretty important. But my family, especially my mother, has made me feel like an evil, horrible person for wanting this. My mother insists that she’s not asking too much, and views our desire to spend Christmas alone at home as absurd, which really hurts me. Has any one gone through this sort of thing? Can you offer advice? Please e-mail me at david_l…@mailexcite.com Thanks all! David ——————-==== Posted via Deja News ====———————– http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

Response:

I know it is difficult for you and I’m not trying to put you down but I offer you some real advice. Your Mother is STILL having a hard time letting you go and now is the perfect opportunity to leave the nest which is what you MUST do if you expect your marriage to work. Your wife may have some competition problems with your mother and as we all know Christmas time is not the time for conflicts. I don’t know the whole situation and I won’t pretend I do so if my advice seems off key and out of touch please disregard it. You should probably stay at home with your family for Christmas. Stay with your wife and your dog for they are your family now. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -david_l…@mailexcite.com wrote: > I have been married for 2 1/2 years, and before that we lived > together for 2 years. Three of our first four Christmases together were > spent with my family. One year (before we were married), I went to my > family’s gathering while my then-fiancee chose to stay home. This year, > my wife has made it clear for months that she does not want to go to my > family’s gathering, but would like just the two of us and our dog : ) to > celebrate at home (her family does not celebrate Christmas at all). My > wife is not very comfortable around my family – and has an especially > hard time getting along with one of my aunts – which may have something > to do with this, but I know she also wants us to celebrate Christmas on > our own, as a family, for the first time. At first I was very > offended – in my 27 years, I’ve never been away from my family on > Christmas. I figured I would go without her – which she suggested, > although I knew it would really hurt her if I did it. Then the thought > of being away from her on Christmas day really started to upset me. I > decided I would stay with her after all. A difficult decision, made more > so by the fact that we spent this Thanksgiving with her family. I let my > mother know a few days ago, and she went ballistic – screaming, guilt > trips, the whole bit. She enlisted her sister and husband to call me and > try to convince me to change my mind. All this has been emotionally > traumatic for me – I am far from assertive, and am very sensitive to > other people’s anger, especially my relatives. I’ve come close to > waivering, but so far I’m sticking to my guns on this one. Things are > especially complicated because I am the only child of a single mother, so > we’ve been extremely (perhaps unhealthily) close, and my mother has > always viewed me as her "companion" at family gatherings. Most every one > else had a spouse, she always just had me. She has had a very hard time > accepting the fact that I am married, and that I must consider my wife > first, that my wife and I are now a family. It’s very difficult for me > to be caught in a power struggle between my wife and mother, and at > various times I’ve offended each of them by siding with the other one > during a conflict. Lately, I’ve come to realize that my marriage may be > in some trouble, and that it’s crucial for me to make an effort to put my > wife first. So, our spending Christmas alone together seems pretty > important. But my family, especially my mother, has made me feel like an > evil, horrible person for wanting this. My mother insists that she’s not > asking too much, and views our desire to spend Christmas alone at home as > absurd, which really hurts me. Has any one gone through this sort > of thing? Can you offer advice? > Please e-mail me at > david_l…@mailexcite.com > Thanks all! > David > ——————-==== Posted via Deja News ====———————– > http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

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