Filed under: Community building
Question:
Was wondering if I could get a email thingy going about www.asdonline.org which I have registered for two years. The site is not going to be using its domain name for a bit though. It is going to reside at www.web-eminence.com until I can find a place to host it for free, which I think I have done. Anyways, content is something I need help with, also making ground rules for use of the chat and its channels. So here it is, if anyone wants some say in all of this please try and let me know what you are thinking. We can all get together and decide what needs to be done right now and what can be done in the future. 2cerus is helping so far and has sent some really good links. Actually she has sent them something like three times now! :} I was having a problem deciding on if I would use win2000 or Windows ME on my new computer, so I settled for both! Anyways, please email me any thoughts. Maybe we can put together a group or a board if you will. That will help decide the direction of the sites growth? John
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was wondering if I could get a email thingy going about www.asdonline.org which I have registered for two years. The site is not going to be using its domain name for a bit though. It is going to reside at www.web-eminence.com until I can find a place to host it for free, which I think I have done. Anyways, content is something I need help with, also making ground rules for use of the chat and its channels. So here it is, if anyone wants some say in all of this please try and let me know what you are thinking. We can all get together and decide what needs to be done right now and what can be done in the future. 2cerus is helping so far and has sent some really good links. Actually she has sent them something like three times now! :} I was having a problem deciding on if I would use win2000 or Windows ME on my new computer, so I settled for both! Anyways, please email me any thoughts. Maybe we can put together a group or a board if you will. That will help decide the direction of the sites growth? John
You mean like an Egroup or something, John? That can be set up fairly easily. linda — All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by frost. — Bilbo Baggins, Hobbit, Adventurer
Response:
would love to help but have no idea what you are talking about. But would if I could. jane – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was wondering if I could get a email thingy going about www.asdonline.org which I have registered for two years. The site is not going to be using its domain name for a bit though. It is going to reside at www.web-eminence.com until I can find a place to host it for free, which I think I have done. Anyways, content is something I need help with, also making ground rules for use of the chat and its channels. So here it is, if anyone wants some say in all of this please try and let me know what you are thinking. We can all get together and decide what needs to be done right now and what can be done in the future. 2cerus is helping so far and has sent some really good links. Actually she has sent them something like three times now! :} I was having a problem deciding on if I would use win2000 or Windows ME on my new computer, so I settled for both! Anyways, please email me any thoughts. Maybe we can put together a group or a board if you will. That will help decide the direction of the sites growth? John
Response:
Well, I can send encouragement. Here it is. You guys are wonderful for this. thank you thank you thank you, trill
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was wondering if I could get a email thingy going about www.asdonline.org which I have registered for two years. The site is not going to be using its domain name for a bit though. It is going to reside at www.web-eminence.com until I can find a place to host it for free, which I think I have done. Anyways, content is something I need help with, also making ground rules for use of the chat and its channels. So here it is, if anyone wants some say in all of this please try and let me know what you are thinking. We can all get together and decide what needs to be done right now and what can be done in the future. 2cerus is helping so far and has sent some really good links. Actually she has sent them something like three times now! :} I was having a problem deciding on if I would use win2000 or Windows ME on my new computer, so I settled for both! Anyways, please email me any thoughts. Maybe we can put together a group or a board if you will. That will help decide the direction of the sites growth? John
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *SNIPPED for saving size* You mean like an Egroup or something, John? That can be set up fairly easily. linda Thank you for the idea about an e-group, will have to look into what it is… There is a site going online soon, 
) well soon is a relative term! Anyways, I registered a domain called ASDOnline.org and it is going to be a web site dedicated to ASD and it will also have a chat associated with it that will be online 24 hours a day 365 days a year. The chat should be online very soon, I also will be putting together an ICQ chat for those who wish to use ICQ instead of IRC chats. I was also thinking of getting some people from ASD who are on ICQ to be part of a online support group kind of thing. When someone is in need of someone to talk with they can use a ICQ ring we put together. Anyways, thank you again to the e-group thing, maybe you can help put that together? John
I can start an egroup easily enough. What name would you want it to be called? ASDPathways? ASDJobJar. (you know, those jars with all the little slips of paper of ‘to do’s’ on them) I’m drawing a blank. I’m assuming it is a group more specifically designed to discuss the logistics and plans for setting up the web page and server? To better coordinate efforts? I can set it up and name you as the moderator (I’ve already got two egroups to handle myself so I’d rather not get into managing it.) creating one is easy. You just need to email the info to those who are helping with the project and they can go to egroups and sign up for it. So if you have a list of people who’ve volunteered that need to be included, let me know and they can be notified to sign up for it once it’s created. I have ICQ also. I could be part of a ring if someone wants to start one. We’d basically need lists of ICQ numbers and post them on the ASD page. I can collect the data if people will email it to me. Then I can send it to you to put on the page. I guess you’re going to have some sort of people page or contacts? (more personal than just standard urls for crisis lines etc.) The main thing would be that people send it to me before the end of the month if possible. My finances are day to day and I may not be able to get down to the library very often if I loose my regular account. The email I set up for when and if I do loose my the library a few times a week maybe once it’s set up on their systems. (I don’t do windoze, so my son has to teach me) Linda — All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by frost. — Bilbo Baggins, Hobbit, Adventurer
Response:
*SNIPPED for saving size* You mean like an Egroup or something, John? That can be set up fairly easily. linda
Thank you for the idea about an e-group, will have to look into what it is… There is a site going online soon, ) well soon is a relative term! Anyways, I registered a domain called ASDOnline.org and it is going to be a web site dedicated to ASD and it will also have a chat associated with it that will be online 24 hours a day 365 days a year. The chat should be online very soon, I also will be putting together an ICQ chat for those who wish to use ICQ instead of IRC chats. I was also thinking of getting some people from ASD who are on ICQ to be part of a online support group kind of thing. When someone is in need of someone to talk with they can use a ICQ ring we put together. Anyways, thank you again to the e-group thing, maybe you can help put that together? John
Response:
Oh, let’s not mention holidays, okay? (but thanks for your good intentions) Now lessee… What is ICQ and IRC and what will I have to do to be part of this stuff? tia trill
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ) it’s moving slowly but it is moving! I hope you(s) are doing well and that the holidays go well for you(s) John Well, I can send encouragement. Here it is. You guys are wonderful for this. thank you thank you thank you, trill Was wondering if I could get a email thingy going about www.asdonline.org which I have registered for two years. The site is not going to be using its domain name for a bit though. It is going to reside at www.web-eminence.com until I can find a place to host it for free, which I think I have done. Anyways, content is something I need help with, also making ground rules for use of the chat and its channels. So here it is, if anyone wants some say in all of this please try and let me know what you are thinking. We can all get together and decide what needs to be done right now and what can be done in the future. 2cerus is helping so far and has sent some really good links. Actually she has sent them something like three times now! :} I was having a problem deciding on if I would use win2000 or Windows ME on my new computer, so I settled for both! Anyways, please email me any thoughts. Maybe we can put together a group or a board if you will. That will help decide the direction of the sites growth? John
Response:
Actually my ogranizational skills leave a lot to be desired. So if we could find someone else who is better at leading it would probably be better. That said, I think if we can get a few people together in a ICQ chat we could hash things out and get things rolling. ALso, I was thinking thta people such as ESue might like to be a part of this too. People on the professional side… Have an area dedicated to just them. John…. dunno about the last just a thought… these are the things I was meaning when I said hash things out.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *SNIPPED for saving size* You mean like an Egroup or something, John? That can be set up fairly easily. linda Thank you for the idea about an e-group, will have to look into what it is… There is a site going online soon, ) well soon is a relative term! Anyways, I registered a domain called ASDOnline.org and it is going to be a web site dedicated to ASD and it will also have a chat associated with it that will be online 24 hours a day 365 days a year. The chat should be online very soon, I also will be putting together an ICQ chat for those who wish to use ICQ instead of IRC chats. I was also thinking of getting some people from ASD who are on ICQ to be part of a online support group kind of thing. When someone is in need of someone to talk with they can use a ICQ ring we put together. Anyways, thank you again to the e-group thing, maybe you can help put that together? John I can start an egroup easily enough. What name would you want it to be called? ASDPathways? ASDJobJar. (you know, those jars with all the little slips of paper of ‘to do’s’ on them) I’m drawing a blank. I’m assuming it is a group more specifically designed to discuss the logistics and plans for setting up the web page and server? To better coordinate efforts? I can set it up and name you as the moderator (I’ve already got two egroups to handle myself so I’d rather not get into managing it.) creating one is easy. You just need to email the info to those who are helping with the project and they can go to egroups and sign up for it. So if you have a list of people who’ve volunteered that need to be included, let me know and they can be notified to sign up for it once it’s created. I have ICQ also. I could be part of a ring if someone wants to start one. We’d basically need lists of ICQ numbers and post them on the ASD page. I can collect the data if people will email it to me. Then I can send it to you to put on the page. I guess you’re going to have some sort of people page or contacts? (more personal than just standard urls for crisis lines etc.) The main thing would be that people send it to me before the end of the month if possible. My finances are day to day and I may not be able to get down to the library very often if I loose my regular account. The email I set up for when and if I do loose my the library a few times a week maybe once it’s set up on their systems. (I don’t do windoze, so my son has to teach me) Linda — All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by frost. — Bilbo Baggins, Hobbit, Adventurer
Response:
) it’s moving slowly but it is moving! I hope you(s) are doing well and that the holidays go well for you(s) John
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I can send encouragement. Here it is. You guys are wonderful for this. thank you thank you thank you, trill Was wondering if I could get a email thingy going about www.asdonline.org which I have registered for two years. The site is not going to be using its domain name for a bit though. It is going to reside at www.web-eminence.com until I can find a place to host it for free, which I think I have done. Anyways, content is something I need help with, also making ground rules for use of the chat and its channels. So here it is, if anyone wants some say in all of this please try and let me know what you are thinking. We can all get together and decide what needs to be done right now and what can be done in the future. 2cerus is helping so far and has sent some really good links. Actually she has sent them something like three times now! :} I was having a problem deciding on if I would use win2000 or Windows ME on my new computer, so I settled for both! Anyways, please email me any thoughts. Maybe we can put together a group or a board if you will. That will help decide the direction of the sites growth? John
Response:
hi John, ALso, I was thinking thta people such as ESue might like to be a part of this too. People on the professional side… Have an area dedicated to just them.
think this needs to be discussed within the group before the decision is made. do we want a site by and for those with dissociative disorders and their supporters only, or do we also want to include professionals, whose opinions, therapies, and ideas about us vary greatly? i’ve seen a variety of dissociative sites of both types. the ones that are without therapist influence feel safer to me. i don’t know. i just kind of have mixed feelings about this, and would like to hear what others have to say. dunno about the last just a thought… these are the things I was meaning when I said hash things out.
what i understood you saying about the email thing was that you wanted people to start getting in touch with you privately to let you know who was interested in helping, etc… sometimes it’s easier that way, esp. when so much stuff is going on, and organization is not your forte. let us know what’s best for you, and we’ll see what we can do to make it easier. diane
Response:
Oh, let’s not mention holidays, okay? (but thanks for your good intentions) Now lessee… What is ICQ and IRC and what will I have to do to be part of this stuff? tia trill
trill, go to http://www.icq.com for the software. it is free. And small and doesn’t take a lot of room. linda — All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by frost. — Bilbo Baggins, Hobbit, Adventurer
Response:
PS… The setup and installation for these things will be mapped out step by step on the site for those needing extra help with it…… John
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, let’s not mention holidays, okay? (but thanks for your good intentions) Now lessee… What is ICQ and IRC and what will I have to do to be part of this stuff? tia trill ) it’s moving slowly but it is moving! I hope you(s) are doing well and that the holidays go well for you(s) John Well, I can send encouragement. Here it is. You guys are wonderful for this. thank you thank you thank you, trill Was wondering if I could get a email thingy going about www.asdonline.org which I have registered for two years. The site is not going to be using its domain name for a bit though. It is going to reside at www.web-eminence.com until I can find a place to host it for free, which I think I have done. Anyways, content is something I need help with, also making ground rules for use of the chat and its channels. So here it is, if anyone wants some say in all of this please try and let me know what you are thinking. We can all get together and decide what needs to be done right now and what can be done in the future. 2cerus is helping so far and has sent some really good links. Actually she has sent them something like three times now! :} I was having a problem deciding on if I would use win2000 or Windows ME on my new computer, so I settled for both! Anyways, please email me any thoughts. Maybe we can put together a group or a board if you will. That will help decide the direction of the sites growth? John
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi John, ALso, I was thinking thta people such as ESue might like to be a part of this too. People on the professional side… Have an area dedicated to just them. think this needs to be discussed within the group before the decision is made. do we want a site by and for those with dissociative disorders and their supporters only, or do we also want to include professionals, whose opinions, therapies, and ideas about us vary greatly? i’ve seen a variety of dissociative sites of both types. the ones that are without therapist influence feel safer to me. i don’t know. i just kind of have mixed feelings about this, and would like to hear what others have to say.
hm. if it’s going to be the official asd site, we probably should include t’s, only because the faq specifically includes "therapists/psychologists" in the section about who should post here. on the other hand, i don’t feel inclined to bend over backwards to spiff up the site, even a section of the site, for them. i have serious misgivings about most of the therapists who have posted here – those, that is, who have posted only as therapists, not those who are dissociative themselves. i guess my feeling is that while therapists would be welcome to visit the site and perhaps contribute in some way, i’d say no to having an area dedicated to them. i don’t know. i might change my mind tomorrow. what kind of area did you have in mind for them, John? tess – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – dunno about the last just a thought… these are the things I was meaning when I said hash things out. what i understood you saying about the email thing was that you wanted people to start getting in touch with you privately to let you know who was interested in helping, etc… sometimes it’s easier that way, esp. when so much stuff is going on, and organization is not your forte. let us know what’s best for you, and we’ll see what we can do to make it easier. diane
Response:
Oh, let’s not mention holidays, okay? (but thanks for your good intentions) Now lessee… What is ICQ and IRC and what will I have to do to be part of this stuff?
ICQ is a program that runs on your computer allowing you and others to communicate through a private chat or e-messaging (spelling). IRC is a chat … The posibilities are very far reaching with both and you can be a part of either or both as you choose… IQC would be easy to start with.. Say you wanted to message me or chat with me and I am onlline. It would let you know I am online and you could send me achat request or a message as you see fit and we could talk real time. John
Response:
hi astri, I’m not sure I’d want esue to have a major voice in an asd website. she tends to draw controversy and politics. I don’t think we need that there. astri
um, well…thank you for saying what i was afraid to say. diane
Response:
anxiety built in me as I read through this thread but when I got to here I felt a little better and say astri, what Diane said? Me too. thanks. trill p.s. of course, uh, esue has her own web page so if anyone wants to know anything from her, well… it’s obvious
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi astri, I’m not sure I’d want esue to have a major voice in an asd website. she tends to draw controversy and politics. I don’t think we need that there. astri um, well…thank you for saying what i was afraid to say. diane
Response:
hey linda, thanks for that, even though it was directed to trill…:-) the icq stuff, i mean… diane
Response:
thanks, trill
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, let’s not mention holidays, okay? (but thanks for your good intentions) Now lessee… What is ICQ and IRC and what will I have to do to be part of this stuff? tia trill trill, go to http://www.icq.com for the software. it is free. And small and doesn’t take a lot of room. linda — All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by frost. — Bilbo Baggins, Hobbit, Adventurer
Response:
heya Bernie, Not trashing anyones ideas, but if I may add a thought…
thoughts are always welcome…that’s what this is all about. the more thoughts we gather, the more input we have, and the better we make this for all concerned. Why not set up a separate "room(s)" for those who would feel free to chat in those "rooms" with T, and Pdocs and SO’s, and separated from the "room(s)" set aside for those who do not feel safe with T’s or Pdocs or even SO’s…
hmmm…fwiw, i personally wasn’t referring to the chat site. i don’t know anything about chats, and am not sure i would use it. i’m pretty sure if one of the t’s that posts to this group as a t popped in during a discussion, i’d be outta there if i did. i was talking about the web site itself. information and writing that will be there, permanently (well, as permanently as anything on the web is, understanding that stuff in the internet is always changing). Ya know, sometimes when Partners have troubles… they don’t want to vent it out in front of a group of survivors, or dissociates, so fair is fair… for fear of triggering etc…
oh, i understand this. and you have a good idea about the private room. but i think so’s are -way- different from t’s. But then when we all need to pull together to find some strength in other areas or gather thoughts or ideas, sometimes it is nice to ask (chat with) those who have been there and done that, and survived the trip,(maybe even wrote the book and is directing the movie… :^). Just my thoughts splattered as electrons through the wires, saved as bits,etc……
you’re good, Bernie. :-) diane, of Ravensong
Response:
hey linda, thanks for that, even though it was directed to trill…:-) the icq stuff, i mean… diane
No problem. 
When I have spurts of energy, I’m kind of a fact finder/giver. I have a tendency to drive others nuts though sometimes. %-)) linda — All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by frost. — Bilbo Baggins, Hobbit, Adventurer
Response:
imo and fwiw, while netiquette says one doesn’t post private emails, it also says that one is not required to keep abusive emails private. astri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Once again my thoughts and feelings echoe Diane etal’s. ASD stops being safe for me when debates filled with ugly innuendo and self-aggrandizing assertions about "survivors," not a word I choose to use as an umbrella or catch all for those of us at asd or other people I know who lived through tr*uma producing childhood abse, by people who claim not to share that experience. I also think it is scary and bad netiquette for individuals of any profession and reason to hang around asd to send private emails to other asd participants that say nasty things, make insults, jab with sarcasm, accuse, and otherwise hurt the recipient. Such acitivity makes the ng unsafe and gives the recipient little recourse other than violating the netiquette standard of not sharing a private email. I have been the recipient of such email. I know that several others have also had that experience. I wish there were some way to make it stop, but, on the bottom line it does say that asd is an anarchy, so I cannot _make_ these things stop. The reason I mention them in this thread is because one who has done all of these things in the past was mentioned in a way that gave me the impression that sie might be considered for some prominent position on a web page or something or other that I don’t understand that is being created to further serve the asd community. That suggestion in itself frightened me. I have not had that experience with others who post as Ts here, I mean as Ts who come here as Ts, claiming not to have dissociative difficulties, but claiming to have information with which to help those of us who do. For example, I’ve never had such an experience with Peter Barach. At times Peter’s personal style has riled or triggered me, but he has listened to me and others who’ve had those responses and he has made clear efforts to respond kindly to them. Otherwise, he offers information and perspectives that I usually find useful and always find interesting. Another strictly t reader has sent me helpful private email, though I never have seen any ng posts by hir, so I won’t mention hir name. The two offensive emails that I received privately from agitated ng members were not from Ts. They were from people who read and post here, regardless of profession, with disclosure of their dissociative difficulties. (Well, one of them actually did practice some sort of pschothrpy at some time in hir life, but sie was not active in the field when sie sent me the poison post.) Anyway, I wish there were a way to effectively prevent such activities. I don’t think we can always predict what might happen and how someone might switch and what sort of defender might come out and write what sort of overprotective whatever to whomever. But I do know that we can recognize when an asder repeatedly makes such offenses and I don’t think there is a good reason to offer a prominent position in any aspect or subsect of this community to someone who behaves thusly. Those are my opinions. I’m afraid that they are harsh. I’m sorry. However, I’m sorrier that I had the negative experiences at asd that I had, and so, I discuss these things in an attempt to prevent such problems in the future. The great majority of my interactions at asd have been wonderful — helpful, educational, friendly, compassionate, empathetic, and community building on the base of an emotional and intellectual process that, in myself, I experience as otherwise isolating. For this I am enormously grateful. For this I address the problems I’ve experienced, hoping to diminish them in the future so that asd will be more and more of the strong, growth and education enhancing environment that I rely on it to be. trill heya Bernie, Not trashing anyones ideas, but if I may add a thought… thoughts are always welcome…that’s what this is all about. the more thoughts we gather, the more input we have, and the better we make this for all concerned. Why not set up a separate "room(s)" for those who would feel free to chat in those "rooms" with T, and Pdocs and SO’s, and separated from the "room(s)" set aside for those who do not feel safe with T’s or Pdocs or even SO’s… hmmm…fwiw, i personally wasn’t referring to the chat site. i don’t know anything about chats, and am not sure i would use it. i’m pretty sure if one of the t’s that posts to this group as a t popped in during a discussion, i’d be outta there if i did. i was talking about the web site itself. information and writing that will be there, permanently (well, as permanently as anything on the web is, understanding that stuff in the internet is always changing). Ya know, sometimes when Partners have troubles… they don’t want to vent it out in front of a group of survivors, or dissociates, so fair is fair… for fear of triggering etc… oh, i understand this. and you have a good idea about the private room. but i think so’s are -way- different from t’s. But then when we all need to pull together to find some strength in other areas or gather thoughts or ideas, sometimes it is nice to ask (chat with) those who have been there and done that, and survived the trip,(maybe even wrote the book and is directing the movie… :^). Just my thoughts splattered as electrons through the wires, saved as bits,etc…… you’re good, Bernie. :-) diane, of Ravensong
Response:
Once again my thoughts and feelings echoe Diane etal’s. ASD stops being safe for me when debates filled with ugly innuendo and self-aggrandizing assertions about "survivors," not a word I choose to use as an umbrella or catch all for those of us at asd or other people I know who lived through tr*uma producing childhood abse, by people who claim not to share that experience. I also think it is scary and bad netiquette for individuals of any profession and reason to hang around asd to send private emails to other asd participants that say nasty things, make insults, jab with sarcasm, accuse, and otherwise hurt the recipient. Such acitivity makes the ng unsafe and gives the recipient little recourse other than violating the netiquette standard of not sharing a private email. I have been the recipient of such email. I know that several others have also had that experience. I wish there were some way to make it stop, but, on the bottom line it does say that asd is an anarchy, so I cannot _make_ these things stop. The reason I mention them in this thread is because one who has done all of these things in the past was mentioned in a way that gave me the impression that sie might be considered for some prominent position on a web page or something or other that I don’t understand that is being created to further serve the asd community. That suggestion in itself frightened me. I have not had that experience with others who post as Ts here, I mean as Ts who come here as Ts, claiming not to have dissociative difficulties, but claiming to have information with which to help those of us who do. For example, I’ve never had such an experience with Peter Barach. At times Peter’s personal style has riled or triggered me, but he has listened to me and others who’ve had those responses and he has made clear efforts to respond kindly to them. Otherwise, he offers information and perspectives that I usually find useful and always find interesting. Another strictly t reader has sent me helpful private email, though I never have seen any ng posts by hir, so I won’t mention hir name. The two offensive emails that I received privately from agitated ng members were not from Ts. They were from people who read and post here, regardless of profession, with disclosure of their dissociative difficulties. (Well, one of them actually did practice some sort of pschothrpy at some time in hir life, but sie was not active in the field when sie sent me the poison post.) Anyway, I wish there were a way to effectively prevent such activities. I don’t think we can always predict what might happen and how someone might switch and what sort of defender might come out and write what sort of overprotective whatever to whomever. But I do know that we can recognize when an asder repeatedly makes such offenses and I don’t think there is a good reason to offer a prominent position in any aspect or subsect of this community to someone who behaves thusly. Those are my opinions. I’m afraid that they are harsh. I’m sorry. However, I’m sorrier that I had the negative experiences at asd that I had, and so, I discuss these things in an attempt to prevent such problems in the future. The great majority of my interactions at asd have been wonderful — helpful, educational, friendly, compassionate, empathetic, and community building on the base of an emotional and intellectual process that, in myself, I experience as otherwise isolating. For this I am enormously grateful. For this I address the problems I’ve experienced, hoping to diminish them in the future so that asd will be more and more of the strong, growth and education enhancing environment that I rely on it to be. trill
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – heya Bernie, Not trashing anyones ideas, but if I may add a thought… thoughts are always welcome…that’s what this is all about. the more thoughts we gather, the more input we have, and the better we make this for all concerned. Why not set up a separate "room(s)" for those who would feel free to chat in those "rooms" with T, and Pdocs and SO’s, and separated from the "room(s)" set aside for those who do not feel safe with T’s or Pdocs or even SO’s… hmmm…fwiw, i personally wasn’t referring to the chat site. i don’t know anything about chats, and am not sure i would use it. i’m pretty sure if one of the t’s that posts to this group as a t popped in during a discussion, i’d be outta there if i did. i was talking about the web site itself. information and writing that will be there, permanently (well, as permanently as anything on the web is, understanding that stuff in the internet is always changing). Ya know, sometimes when Partners have troubles… they don’t want to vent it out in front of a group of survivors, or dissociates, so fair is fair… for fear of triggering etc… oh, i understand this. and you have a good idea about the private room. but i think so’s are -way- different from t’s. But then when we all need to pull together to find some strength in other areas or gather thoughts or ideas, sometimes it is nice to ask (chat with) those who have been there and done that, and survived the trip,(maybe even wrote the book and is directing the movie… :^). Just my thoughts splattered as electrons through the wires, saved as bits,etc…… you’re good, Bernie. :-) diane, of Ravensong
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posted and emailed thank you, trill. i, of course, agree. i just have one comment…something i’ve been thinking about lately, and not really on-topic for the website discussion but, oh well… I also think it is scary and bad netiquette for individuals of any profession and reason to hang around asd to send private emails to other asd participants that say nasty things, make insults, jab with sarcasm, accuse, and otherwise hurt the recipient.
since this is supposed to be a place of support, and filled with adults and not just people posing as such, one would think they could handle themselves as such. i am hearing more and more lately that we have a couple of individuals (a couple that i know of) who are particularly good at being ab*sive and threatening in private email. i haven’t lately received any myself, but have been the recipient of some in the past. it does make this place feel unsafe…i believe the intent on these individuals’ parts (or at least one) is to bully us into keeping quiet about certain things. that, my friends, makes this person no better than our ab*sers. Such acitivity makes the ng unsafe and gives the recipient little recourse other than violating the netiquette standard of not sharing a private email.
well, i’m not sure about that. i think a public post can be addressed to that individual, making everyone aware that sie has been sending ab*sive, threatening email, with the understanding that if it continues you will -then- post it. seems that you could also send it along to that person’s isp. i, for one, will no longer be intimidated by people here who think they are better than i. ab*se is ab*se, and i didn’t come here for that. i came here to get away from it. I wish there were some way to make it stop, but, on the bottom line it does say that asd is an anarchy, so I cannot _make_ these things stop.
i can block people and addresses that i don’t want to get email from…can you do that? you may not be able to stop people from writing stuff, but you can find ways to make it hard for them to enjoy doing it. and ways to keep yourself safe. i would want to be proactive on this one, though. truly ab*sive and threatening stuff goes to the isp, as far as i’m concerned. just general nastiness gets a public post. maybe with a spoiler so people don’t have to read. i’m sorry. i rambled. but these are the things i find triggering, the stuff that makes this place so unsafe. and if you haven’t been the recipient of this cr*p, or know of someone who has, you have no idea what’s going on. it makes all the daily stuff so much worse. diane, of Ravensong
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi John, ALso, I was thinking thta people such as ESue might like to be a part of this too. People on the professional side… Have an area dedicated to just them. think this needs to be discussed within the group before the decision is made. do we want a site by and for those with dissociative disorders and their supporters only, or do we also want to include professionals, whose opinions, therapies, and ideas about us vary greatly? i’ve seen a variety of dissociative sites of both types. the ones that are without therapist influence feel safer to me. i don’t know. i just kind of have mixed feelings about this, and would like to hear what others have to say. hm. if it’s going to be the official asd site, we probably should include t’s, only because the faq specifically includes "therapists/psychologists" in the section about who should post here. on the other hand, i don’t feel inclined to bend over backwards to spiff up the site, even a section of the site, for them. i have serious misgivings about most of the therapists who have posted here – those, that is, who have posted only as therapists, not those who are dissociative themselves. i guess my feeling is that while therapists would be welcome to visit the site and perhaps contribute in some way, i’d say no to having an area dedicated to them. i don’t know. i might change my mind tomorrow. what kind of area did you have in mind for them, John? tess
I’m not sure I’d want esue to have a major voice in an asd website. she tends to draw controversy and politics. I don’t think we need that there. astri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – dunno about the last just a thought… these are the things I was meaning when I said hash things out. what i understood you saying about the email thing was that you wanted people to start getting in touch with you privately to let you know who was interested in helping, etc… sometimes it’s easier that way, esp. when so much stuff is going on, and organization is not your forte. let us know what’s best for you, and we’ll see what we can do to make it easier. diane
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thanks. trill
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PS… The setup and installation for these things will be mapped out step by step on the site for those needing extra help with it…… John Oh, let’s not mention holidays, okay? (but thanks for your good intentions) Now lessee… What is ICQ and IRC and what will I have to do to be part of this stuff? tia trill ) it’s moving slowly but it is moving! I hope you(s) are doing well and that the holidays go well for you(s) John Well, I can send encouragement. Here it is. You guys are wonderful for this. thank you thank you thank you, trill Was wondering if I could get a email thingy going about www.asdonline.org which I have registered for two years. The site is not going to be using its domain name for a bit though. It is going to reside at www.web-eminence.com until I can find a place to host it for free, which I think I have done. Anyways, content is something I need help with, also making ground rules for use of the chat and its channels. So here it is, if anyone wants some say in all of this please try and let me know what you are thinking. We can all get together and decide what needs to be done right now and what can be done in the future. 2cerus is helping so far and has sent some really good links. Actually she has sent them something like three times now! :} I was having a problem deciding on if I would use win2000 or Windows ME on my new computer, so I settled for both! Anyways, please email me any thoughts. Maybe we can put together a group or a board if you will. That will help decide the direction of the sites growth? John
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Question:
alien warrior princess declared: It’s terribly frustrating as is. Does anyone else feel the same way?
yes. —Angie a.k.a. D-Strss
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The chat forum thing sucks the donkey’s bag inside out. Having to reload all the time really gags baboons.
It’s not a live chat system — It’s a BBS-style forum. That would be like pressing reload on RAB over and over… If you want to live chat, either use the live chat, or use the instant message system. Shannon — — BME: Body Modification Ezine: http://www.bmezine.com/ Shannon’s Webcam: http://www.bmeworld.com/shannon/cam.html
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So, I started using it. And I guess it’s pretty cool. (Y’hear that Shannon? It was a compliment!) Except The chat forum thing sucks the donkey’s bag inside out. Having to reload all the time really gags baboons. Seriously, I would advise running your own irc server, much like scifi.com does (where you can use either a normal irc client or a web interface). It’s terribly frustrating as is. Does anyone else feel the same way? |+/-1 — www.voteNader.org www.manwoman.net/swastika/index.html www.religioustolerance.org/satanism.htm *** Bring down THE MAN to respond ***
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My new project: http://iam.bmezine.com/ A body modification community-building tool. People seem to enjoy it… It’s still very much in the prototype stage, but it’s turning out nicely. Shannon — — BME: Body Modification Ezine: http://www.bmezine.com/ Shannon’s Webcam: http://www.bmeworld.com/shannon/cam.html
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Nice, but this is different than bmeworld because…? Coulda just changed the world’s main page to include pics, right? *shrug* — G
Question:
In article <26903-392C57F6…@storefull-615.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, marc…@webtv.net (Mark Branson) wrote: > This is a very good point. I notice this all the time. It does make > things more difficult.
It does – however one consolation I carry around with me, is that the time crunch can only go so far, before a limit is reached. Suppose that the work week increased to 70 hours a week on average – that’s being very extreme, but let’s take the example nonetheless. This would mean that people would work 10 hours a day, 7 days a week. In addition, assume that other work, including household chores, dinner, maintenance, etc. takes up 1 more hour a day. Also, assume other things like commuting, shopping, etc. adds another 2 hours average. This would mean people would work *thirteen* hours every day. That would be crazy!! If the time crunch were to continue, invevitably it would take a chunk into sleeping – as this would be one of the first things people would cut back on. If the norm were to sleep like, what, 5 or 6 hours a night, and take little or no breaks – then it wouldn’t be long before psychological disorders, sicknesses, lost productivity, anger outbursts, etc. would metastisize. If this were to continue, some sort of limit would *have* to be reached, in that human beings could not function on a crazy schedule like that for very long. Another way to look at it is with this diagram, where P stands for Productivity: P * * ===== * / * / * / * / * / ****************** avg. hours worked At a certain point, productivity would be maximized, but if people were to work on average past that point, then productivity would actually decline. Thus, to increase output, hours worked would have to decrease. It’s called the law of diminishing returns. Even with technological advances, that shift out this production function – if work hours are still too high, then theoretically, cutting back would be the best way to increase productivity, in that this puts you back before you hit diminishing returns. My argument is that we are already past the point of productivity max., and even though technology is increasing – there is this obsessive- complusive need to do more in less time, and rather than use the technology to increase both leisure time *and* economic growth, the desire to keep increasing hours worked actually leads to a decline in both (because of operating past the point of diminishing returns, or the productivity max point). It is ironic that, economic adovocates who hold the belief: "more stuff done = more growth" are actually being counter-productive, because of pushing the hours worked past the optimum point. So why do we continue to relentlessly pursue more hours, even though it incurs more costs, and less output? I really don’t know. Oh well, that’s the economics lesson for today Steve p.s. I heard a joke saying that if you put 10 economists together, you get 15 different opinions. So there’s my opinion, that basically says: use the technology and production expansion to operate at a point of maximum growth and productivity, such that hours worked are less than current, and leisure time is increased. Basically, similar to the German model. Steve Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.
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On Mon, 29 May 2000 07:13:06 GMT, 1womanscyberpers…@my-deja.com wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> > Was life really that much more social in the old days? The fact is >> > that one of the major reasons many of us failed to learn socializing >> > was precisely because our parents (who grew up in the old days) were >> > *also* basically loners and shy! >> yet somehow my parents got together and had me and siblings. my >parents >> are more socially able than i am. >The thought that I could end up like my parents, now *that* should be >motivation enough for me to turn my life around!! Or else maybe >*nothing is* … 
>Yes, they somehow managed to meet and procreate. But, still, I think >they only met at some stupid singles dance of something. Now, how hard >is it really to meet a MOTOS at an event where people go *specifically* >to meet MOTOS, especially if your *not* the one doing the approaching.
Why aren’t you? Is that the boys’ job ? >It doesn’t really take *any* social skills at all. And then you can >marry and bring socially messed up little kids into the world and live >happily ever after …
Why don’t you try it, if it’s that easy? Sorry to be blunt, but you sound a little grumpy, not that I’m helping >Not that they don’t love me, but I *don’t* want to end up like my >parents.
Who does? Anyone who does is a little weird, if you ask me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ >Before you buy.
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gra-gra wrote: > On Mon, 29 May 2000 07:13:06 GMT, 1womanscyberpers…@my-deja.com > wrote: > >Yes, they somehow managed to meet and procreate. But, still, I think > >they only met at some stupid singles dance of something. Now, how hard > >is it really to meet a MOTOS at an event where people go *specifically* > >to meet MOTOS, especially if your *not* the one doing the approaching. > Why aren’t you? Is that the boys’ job ?
yes, and i am glad in a way. i like to be the chooser.. now if i can just do it correctly.. i also REALLY like our OTHER "jobs" we absolutely MUST perform upon women. :> (I guess i’m just a peckerhead these days..) > >It doesn’t really take *any* social skills at all. And then you can > >marry and bring socially messed up little kids into the world and live > >happily ever after … > Why don’t you try it, if it’s that easy? Sorry to be blunt, but you > sound a little grumpy, not that I’m helping > >Not that they don’t love me, but I *don’t* want to end up like my > >parents.
(like both parentS? BOTH parents?) well to begin with, you would have to have been born siamese twins of both sexes, but.. anyway.. please try to remain more like your mom than your dad! :> i’ll play doctor if you’ll play nurse… ? :> > Who does? Anyone who does is a little weird, if you ask me.
yes, Prince charles’ son probably will want to avoid being like his dad.. and we will *try* to keep 1womancp from sicko-joking about dead Di’s who are over 25 yo and her offspring growing up wanting to be like mummy. ok? :> —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–
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On 26 May 2000 23:53:14 GMT, Steve Ruelle wrote: > headbeat (jasonNOjaS…@jlu.bn3.com.invalid) wrote: > Hey "headbeat"
It’s official — Moi has now become headbeat! I’m not poetic enough to be a Beat Head (Beatnik type) so I had to settle for a less flattering alternative…. > <lots of good stuff snipped> > : "Kill your television" isn’t an option most people > : would ever take seriously…. > You’re quite right – there was a website peripheral to the Center for a > New American Dream (http://www.newdream.org), can’t remember it > unfortunately, that summed up similar views as yourself.
Good site, thanks for the link. It talks about this under a link in the Commercial Culture section. There’s a comment there by someone who said they missed out on 20-minute conversations with their friends each week when they gave up their TV and couldn’t watch Seinfeld anymore. For me, mainly I want to know at least what a show like Seinfeld *is*, even though I usually choose not to become so involved in a program that I have to plan the rest of life around it. Anyway, I also don’t want to play the bullshit intellectual game, like those who say "Oh, I only watch PBS!" The traditional distinction between what is ‘high’ art and ‘low’ art is a load of elitist crap, IMHO. > The problem with "kill your TV" is that it’s a reactive measure, and > doesn’t quite provide for constructive solutions – the television > networks, and other communication media have *vast* potential to influence > the public at large. What is needed is to offer a wider assortment of > public broadcasting services, that encompass things like education, the > arts, social and cultural diversity, scientific programming, and public > fora, where people can freely air their views.
Of course if you are addicted to the educational shows you are still addicted, and it still could lead to the same sort of self- imposed alienation, taken to the extreme that is. Arguably, the traditional network TV crap is becoming irrelevant now anyway, as cable/satellite has filled just about every niche imaginable. The Internet is doing the same. I just caught the end of an interview tonight on TV (where else! ) with John Seely Brown, one of the bigwigs at Xerox. Well, he was discussing his new book called _The Social Life of Information_ – which coincidentally discusses these very issues, I.e. the current trend toward alienation through technology and what measure we can take to combat it. Don’t know if I would agree with his views or not, after all he has a huge vested interest in saving the face of the high tech industry with respect to the type of criticism in the article cited in this thread, but the interview sparked my interest in his views in any case. > There are networks that provide these services – PBS, TLC, and others, > however they attract a far fewer share of viewers than the major corporate > networks.
Just a side note, but I belive TLC is very much a major corporate entity now. Part of Discovery network, owned by CBS/Sony. > One suggestion would be to work with the major networks and > incorporate more of the kind of programming above, perhaps phase it in > with what’s already offered. Granted, it may not attract as many $ as a > lot of the pop culture stuff, but perhaps have celebrities genuinelly > engage in social causes, and awareness?
Would they ever listen though? I don’t think they would unless they were forced to do this kind of thing by government mandate. Actually they already are (here in the US) to a minimal extent, but the key word is ‘minimal’ — they don’t do that kind of programming any more than they are required to do by law. > It may seem like a lost cause, and no doubt others would interpret it as > selling out, but if there were some authenticity exuded on the part of the > celebrities (they are people too, after all) then it may work.
The only place I can think of that this occurs is in the music industry. Hollywood is in the business of keeping you glued to the screen for as much time as possible. Thus, most celebrities would be sabotaging their own careers if they did this, wouldn’t they? — headbeat <ja…@jlu.bn3.com> —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -1womanscyberpers…@my-deja.com wrote: > > > Was life really that much more social in the old days? The fact is > > > that one of the major reasons many of us failed to learn socializing > > > was precisely because our parents (who grew up in the old days) were > > > *also* basically loners and shy! > > yet somehow my parents got together and had me and siblings. my > parents > > are more socially able than i am. > The thought that I could end up like my parents, now *that* should be > motivation enough for me to turn my life around!! Or else maybe > *nothing is* … > Yes, they somehow managed to meet and procrete.
somehow. yes, and i really have no inclination to interrogate my parents as to how they managed.. as educational as it might be.. (oh, BTW, i want you to be assured that i am not suggesting i would interrogate them about their sexual technique which led to my birth!!) >But, still, I think > they only met at some stupid singles dance of something. Now, how hard > is it really to meet a MOTOS at an event where people go *specifically* > to meet MOTOS,
depends what you mean by "meeting". in my case it would be hard to do more "meeting" beyond just ("furtive") looking. >especially if your *not* the one doing the approaching.
well one of your parents must have done this!! or were chaperones doing the opposite of what they do now? i thought chaperones were supposed to hinder overly eager youngsters. > It doesn’t really take *any* social skills at all. And then you can > marry and bring socially messed up little kids into the world and live > happily ever after …
so are you saying that only your parents complete lack of pickiness is all which allowed them to go on to get married etc etc (birdz n beeezzzzz)? > Not that they don’t love me, but I *don’t* want to end up like my > parents.
—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–
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> > Was life really that much more social in the old days? The fact is > > that one of the major reasons many of us failed to learn socializing > > was precisely because our parents (who grew up in the old days) were > > *also* basically loners and shy! > yet somehow my parents got together and had me and siblings. my parents > are more socially able than i am.
The thought that I could end up like my parents, now *that* should be motivation enough for me to turn my life around!! Or else maybe *nothing is* … Yes, they somehow managed to meet and procrete. But, still, I think they only met at some stupid singles dance of something. Now, how hard is it really to meet a MOTOS at an event where people go *specifically* to meet MOTOS, especially if your *not* the one doing the approaching. It doesn’t really take *any* social skills at all. And then you can marry and bring socially messed up little kids into the world and live happily ever after … Not that they don’t love me, but I *don’t* want to end up like my parents. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.
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> yes. i have been kind of lax even as i have noticed that (on the net) > ppl would comment about seinfeld, ER or some TV thing, and i was barely > able to recognize the show’s name.. and only from readinhg about it in > the papers.. where i do learn stuff about movies etc..
yea, I only watch a few shows, those few that I actually like. > but i have been trying to ASAP get comfortable with possibly dating a > college aged woman.. if that is all who are available. (i am old enough > to have been "potent" at the time when college aged ppl were born)
Well, since Steve R. says that most people die at 25 anyway …. (and are buried at 80) ….. Yes, I know Steve was *joking*, but you see, I found his joke very *eloquent* and very *true*. Ah! must escape living death! Oh, and that’s also a "joke", te he. > > — you can’t be too radical in your approach without alienati > > your fellow members of society, if that makes sense. > yep, it’s hard to find an outcast "social structure". > >Well, this > > leaves the question which few article writers seem to want to > > address — what are some good concrete solutions to this > > problem? "Kill your television" isn’t an option most people > > would ever take seriously…. > how strange that seems to me..
Before it kills you. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -1womanscyberpers…@my-deja.com wrote: > In article <KLLW4.5$vP1….@ord-read.news.verio.net>, > Bloody Viking <nos…@masu.wwa.com> wrote: > > 1womanscyberpers…@my-deja.com wrote: > > : Um, I think most of the people posting here *never* (in their lives) > > : had much in the way of real life networks to begin with! That being > > : true, *we* can hardly be said to be contributing to the decline.;-) > > : For us its just the same old same old. > > : Although, I admit, I do plan to cut back the time I spend on the > > : fricken computer a little (uh tommorow, maybe) and work on > socializing – > > : yea! . > > The irony is that it’s harder to find people to be social with thanks > to > > the electronifying of everything. Now you have to take part in > something > > structured or go to the bars.
we didn’t havve to bfore the net? also isn’t it possible thta the net provides a new source of structures? —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–
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headbeat wrote: > droo…@my-deja.com wrote: > [snip] > A funny thing is, I gave up almost all television (didn’t own > one) for almost 2 years (still had my computer though, for most > of that time). I started to feel quite alienated from my friends > and family because that’s where *they* spent a good portion of > their leisure time. Now that I’m back and more into keeping up > with TV pop culture (at least to some extent) I feel there was a > whole new avenue for relating to others in real life that I was > missing out on in my drop-out phase. I guess this would be > another reason why I think a balance between the two is necessary
yes. i have been kind of lax even as i have noticed that (on the net) ppl would comment about seinfeld, ER or some TV thing, and i was barely able to recognize the show’s name.. and only from readinhg about it in the papers.. where i do learn stuff about movies etc.. unfortunately, TV is a culture which stays contemporary among all age ranges wihle my culture of choice, music, is very age dependent, and i have kept my interest in music alive.. while most ppl let theirs freeze in time… end result: no one near my age interetsed in newer music or much interested in music at all. but i have been trying to ASAP get comfortable with possibly dating a college aged woman.. if that is all who are available. (i am old enough to have been "potent" at the time when college aged ppl were born) > — you can’t be too radical in your approach without alienating > your fellow members of society, if that makes sense.
yep, it’s hard to find an outcast "social structure". >Well, this > leaves the question which few article writers seem to want to > address — what are some good concrete solutions to this > problem? "Kill your television" isn’t an option most people > would ever take seriously….
how strange that seems to me.. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Bloody Viking wrote: > headbeat <jasonNOjaS…@jlu.bn3.com.invalid> wrote: > : A funny thing is, I gave up almost all television (didn’t own > : one) for almost 2 years (still had my computer though, for most > : of that time). I started to feel quite alienated from my friends > : and family because that’s where *they* spent a good portion of > : their leisure time. Now that I’m back and more into keeping up > : with TV pop culture (at least to some extent) I feel there was a > : whole new avenue for relating to others in real life that I was > : missing out on in my drop-out phase. I guess this would be > I own a TV but there is nothing to watch that’s worth the electricity. I > get a similar alienation as you describe with computers. I use Linux while > most people of course use Windows. Worse, I don’t even use X, preferring > the command line and I login with a terminal proggie
you are a real sicko.. i shiver to think what OS robert uses.. :> >and use Lynx on the > web. > First Law of Economics: You can’t sell product to people without money.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Steve Ruelle wrote: > headbeat (jasonNOjaS…@jlu.bn3.com.invalid) wrote: > Hey "headbeat" > <lots of good stuff snipped> > : "Kill your television" isn’t an option most people > : would ever take seriously…. > You’re quite right – there was a website peripheral to the Center for a > New American Dream (http://www.newdream.org), can’t remember it > unfortunately, that summed up similar views as yourself. > The problem with "kill your TV" is that it’s a reactive measure, and > doesn’t quite provide for constructive solutions – the television > networks, and other communication media have *vast* potential to influence > the public at large. What is needed is to offer a wider assortment of > public broadcasting services, that encompass things like education, the > arts, social and cultural diversity, scientific programming, and public > fora, where people can freely air their views. > There are networks that provide these services – PBS, TLC, and others, > however they attract a far fewer share of viewers than the major corporate > networks. One suggestion would be to work with the major networks and > incorporate more of the kind of programming above, perhaps phase it in > with what’s already offered. Granted, it may not attract as many $ as a > lot of the pop culture stuff, but perhaps have celebrities genuinelly > engage in social causes, and awareness? > It may seem like a lost cause, and no doubt others would interpret it as > selling out, but if there were some authenticity exuded on the part of the > celebrities (they are people too, after all) then it may work.
yes, lets get those cooped up loners out into the newtowne square by holding 24 hour public sexathons. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–
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1womanscyberpers…@my-deja.com wrote: > > Just read an article in Sunday’s paper entitled ‘Has the U.s. Become a > > Nation of Perilous Loners?’, by Michael Pakenham. The gist of it is > > thatthe nation’s ’social capital’ is being shunken and by increased > > tendency to isolate- e.g. behind a computer screen. As more and more > of > > the populace engages in this sort of isolation, the real life > networks – > > that include ‘mutual obligations’ disspiates. > Um, I think most of the people posting here *never* (in their lives) > had much in the way of real life networks to begin with!
yep!! > That being > true, *we* can hardly be said to be contributing to the decline.;-) > For us its just the same old same old.
in my case, internet "life" has overall been better than my earlier RL, but i admit i have now been thinking that i have reacheed the limits of it’s benefits to me. now i am just looking for a hint of a potential next step.. which i assume will appear for me in rl. > Although, I admit, I do plan to cut back the time I spend on the > fricken computer a little (uh tommorow, maybe) and work on socializing – > yea! .
i’m SURE i could figure out some very enjoyable (and addictive) RL actvities which would leave you COMPLETELY happy to abandon your computer!! <wink wink> actually i already have those many activities figured out, but it would be a matter of acclimatizing you to them gradually! wouldn’t want to shock you too abruptly from your daily routine. <wink wink> > >The end result is a > > nation of ‘me-first’ brats, looking out for number one only. > Funny, not really a very acurate description of most shy people.
yep. very correct. as ussual, most articlaes are written abotu people who can be lumped into other, larger subgroups of society. > > Civic mindedness, which was part of the 1950s, 1960s, has now gone the > > way of the model T.
yes, whatever happened to the good old *warm* feeling of a nice public cross or witch burning, or the rousing get togethers in towne square, when the whole towne got to throw rotten fruit at the guy in the stocks? ahh.. nostalgia.. > Was life really that much more social in the old days? The fact is > that one of the major reasons many of us failed to learn socializing > was precisely because our parents (who grew up in the old days) were > *also* basically loners and shy!
yet somehow my parents got together and had me and siblings. my parents are more socially able than i am. we grew up with little TV and no computers or video games. but i did listen to a lot of music and i read a lot too. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–
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Tom Hopf <tlh…@bresnanlink.net> wrote:
: I’m afraid you may be confusing "The Time Machine" with the "Back to the : Future" series of movies on that score. Of course. I was just adding humour. But having a flux cap would be nice. Find a nice autobahn and you’re set. Drive a few weeks away, find out the winning lotto numbers and drive back! Imagine a flux cap aboard a super-raggedy Volkswagen. Now, about that 1.3 gigawatts…. — CAUTION: Email Spam Killer in use. Leave this line in your reply! 152680 First Law of Economics: You can’t sell product to people without money. 4968238 bytes of spam mail deleted. http://www.wwa.com/~nospam/
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headbeat <jasonNOjaS…@jlu.bn3.com.invalid> wrote:
: A funny thing is, I gave up almost all television (didn’t own : one) for almost 2 years (still had my computer though, for most : of that time). I started to feel quite alienated from my friends : and family because that’s where *they* spent a good portion of : their leisure time. Now that I’m back and more into keeping up : with TV pop culture (at least to some extent) I feel there was a : whole new avenue for relating to others in real life that I was : missing out on in my drop-out phase. I guess this would be I own a TV but there is nothing to watch that’s worth the electricity. I get a similar alienation as you describe with computers. I use Linux while most people of course use Windows. Worse, I don’t even use X, preferring the command line and I login with a terminal proggie and use Lynx on the web. — CAUTION: Email Spam Killer in use. Leave this line in your reply! 152680 First Law of Economics: You can’t sell product to people without money. 4968238 bytes of spam mail deleted. http://www.wwa.com/~nospam/
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> I’d like to know where to get one of those time machine elements for my > car. My car can do the 88mph, so it’s compatible. (:
I’m afraid you may be confusing "The Time Machine" with the "Back to the Future" series of movies on that score. T.H.
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headbeat (jasonNOjaS…@jlu.bn3.com.invalid) wrote:
Hey "headbeat" <lots of good stuff snipped> : "Kill your television" isn’t an option most people : would ever take seriously…. You’re quite right – there was a website peripheral to the Center for a New American Dream (http://www.newdream.org), can’t remember it unfortunately, that summed up similar views as yourself. The problem with "kill your TV" is that it’s a reactive measure, and doesn’t quite provide for constructive solutions – the television networks, and other communication media have *vast* potential to influence the public at large. What is needed is to offer a wider assortment of public broadcasting services, that encompass things like education, the arts, social and cultural diversity, scientific programming, and public fora, where people can freely air their views. There are networks that provide these services – PBS, TLC, and others, however they attract a far fewer share of viewers than the major corporate networks. One suggestion would be to work with the major networks and incorporate more of the kind of programming above, perhaps phase it in with what’s already offered. Granted, it may not attract as many $ as a lot of the pop culture stuff, but perhaps have celebrities genuinelly engage in social causes, and awareness? It may seem like a lost cause, and no doubt others would interpret it as selling out, but if there were some authenticity exuded on the part of the celebrities (they are people too, after all) then it may work. Just a thought. Steve
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droo…@my-deja.com wrote:
[snip] > As he ends: "Let’s find ways to ensure that by 2010 Americans > spend less leisure time sitting passively in front of glowing > screens and more time connected to their fellow citizens."
I wonder how things like on-line discussion groups, email and chat rooms fit into the equation here. As the ‘glowing screen’ morphs into its next phase (TV –> Internet) aren’t we finding more opportunities to re-establish this sense of community that has been slipping away? I won’t say it’s good as a complete substitute for real life social situations, but it can be used to one’s (social) advantage. IMO what we need is a balance between the screen zombies (the majority) and the anti-technology Luddites out there, and work on ways to establish community social organization both in real life and the ‘virtual’ world. The ‘glowing screen’ is here to stay regardless, so really we have to work with it instead of against it. A funny thing is, I gave up almost all television (didn’t own one) for almost 2 years (still had my computer though, for most of that time). I started to feel quite alienated from my friends and family because that’s where *they* spent a good portion of their leisure time. Now that I’m back and more into keeping up with TV pop culture (at least to some extent) I feel there was a whole new avenue for relating to others in real life that I was missing out on in my drop-out phase. I guess this would be another reason why I think a balance between the two is necessary — you can’t be too radical in your approach without alienating your fellow members of society, if that makes sense. Well, this leaves the question which few article writers seem to want to address — what are some good concrete solutions to this problem? "Kill your television" isn’t an option most people would ever take seriously…. –Jason ja…@jlu.bn3.com * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!
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This is a very good point. I notice this all the time. It does make things more difficult. Mark (Single guy 45 in Longwood Florida–always like to make new shy friends) Steve writes:
One of the effects of time compression, as you noted, that is most relevant for shyness, is the sped-upness of human interaction. In that others are known at an accelerated rate, and interactions tend to be more superficial and alienated. Shy people tend to take a bit longer to warm up, and thus ’speedy’ interactions become more of a challenge, due to the image projection which is mainly involved in them.
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Tom Hopf <tlh…@bresnanlink.net> wrote:
: Actually, they were called Morlocks, or something like that. : Understandable error I guess. That is correct. The year the time machine builder went to was 802,701AD. After escaping and getting the keys in the ignition, he goes in the Ahead direction to around when the Earth begins to die. He then puts it in Reverse, and comes home. Maybe the Morlocks had a Y802.7K problem! I’d like to know where to get one of those time machine elements for my car. My car can do the 88mph, so it’s compatible. (: — CAUTION: Email Spam Killer in use. Leave this line in your reply! 152680 First Law of Economics: You can’t sell product to people without money. 4968238 bytes of spam mail deleted. http://www.wwa.com/~nospam/
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In article <KLLW4.5$vP1….@ord-read.news.verio.net>, Bloody Viking <nos…@masu.wwa.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> 1womanscyberpers…@my-deja.com wrote: > : Um, I think most of the people posting here *never* (in their lives) > : had much in the way of real life networks to begin with! That being > : true, *we* can hardly be said to be contributing to the decline.;-) > : For us its just the same old same old. > : Although, I admit, I do plan to cut back the time I spend on the > : fricken computer a little (uh tommorow, maybe) and work on socializing – > : yea! . > The irony is that it’s harder to find people to be social with thanks to > the electronifying of everything. Now you have to take part in something > structured or go to the bars.
That *does* suck. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.
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In article <8geog8$3…@nnrp1.deja.com>, droo…@my-deja.com wrote: > Just read an article in Sunday’s paper entitled ‘Has the U.s. Become a > Nation of Perilous Loners?’, by Michael Pakenham. The gist of it is > thatthe nation’s ’social capital’ is being shunken and by increased > tendency to isolate- e.g. behind a computer screen.
To a large extent, this is true – and not only that, but also television watching, video games, ATM machines, e-mail, faxes, single occupancy vehicles, etc. None of these things are bad or "evil" in an out of themselves, but to the extent that they become the forefront of communication – much of the human element is lost out, that being the art of conversation. Not only this, but the advent of "time saving" devices, such as faxes and e-mail is part and parcel to the contribution of the time crunch phenomenon. The principle behind it, as Ralph Keyes notes in his book, "Timelock: How Life Got so Hectic and what to do about it" is that, labour savers enable us to take less time doing a given task, so we do more tasks because of this saved time. Thus, as more is done, we want to cut down on the time to do these additional tasks, so more efficient labour savers save the time, thus enabling us to do more stuff. Keyes points out that the more we try to control time, the more time controls us. One of the effects of time compression, as you noted, that is most relevant for shyness, is the sped-upness of human interaction. In that others are known at an accelerated rate, and interactions tend to be more superficial and alienated. Shy people tend to take a bit longer to warm up, and thus ’speedy’ interactions become more of a challenge, due to the image projection which is mainly involved in them. All in all, a very complex issue, but the cultural trends aren’t pointing in that positive a direction, as you point out with the paper you cited. > Paralleling the voter declines have been social declines: membership > inclubs, organizations, down 42% compared to 1973-74, political party > work down 42%, membership in any ‘better government group’, down 19%. > the average decline in all levels of general participation was 25 %.
Not surprised at all. These trends are similar in Canada as well, albeit to a lesser extent. However, it’s always refreshing to read success stories of community building and social participation, even if not on a large or grandiose scale. Even if on the decline in society, there is still good work being done, and it always brings joy to read about it – for instance I saw a special on KCTS last night about community volunteers who were helping disadvantaged black youth recovering from lives of crime becoming re-integrated in society. > As he ends: "Let’s find ways to ensure that by 2010 Americans spend > less leisure time sitting passively in front of glowing screens and > more time connected to their fellow citizens."
A good suggestion. One ‘test’ of character, as well as a good change of habits, is to gradually phase out and replace TV watching with more constructive leisure pursuits. It helps to do active stuff like biking, hiking, rock climbing, or else for the more intellectually inclined, reading Steve Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.
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Just read an article in Sunday’s paper entitled ‘Has the U.s. Become a Nation of Perilous Loners?’, by Michael Pakenham. The gist of it is thatthe nation’s ’social capital’ is being shunken and by increased tendency to isolate- e.g. behind a computer screen. As more and more of the populace engages in this sort of isolation, the real life networks – that include ‘mutual obligations’ disspiates. The end result is a nation of ‘me-first’ brats, looking out for number one only. Civic mindedness, which was part of the 1950s, 1960s, has now gone the way of the model T. We’ve mutated from civic sense to over 73 (at last count) atomized ‘communities’ which the marketing gurus keep track of. As further evidence, Pakenham notes that in the 1960 election fully 62.8 % of Americans voted compared to only 48.9% in 1996. In principle, we’ve even ceased to be a democracy. Paralleling the voter declines have been social declines: membership inclubs, organizations, down 42% compared to 1973-74, political party work down 42%, membership in any ‘better government group’, down 19%. the average decline in all levels of general participation was 25 %. While seeking to understand why the nation’s social glue is vanishing, he notes that electronic ‘entertainment’ is proliferating. Many are being turned into zombies unable to function apart from a monitor or some video game. Others can no longer distinguish RL from virtual reality. Adding to this, he notes, is the increasing breakup- disintegration of the family structure. What is envisioned, unfortunately, is a decay of traditional social values over multiple coming generations. By 2080 it’s doubtful anyone will leave home, or be able to read or converse even at elementary levels. It will be a divided society- with a small fraction, the capable technocrats – doing the work, and a majority of vegetables. Something like that movie ‘The Time Machine’ where the troglydytes kept the Eloi nourished. The latter unable to do anything to help themselves. But in the end, the Eloi served as food for the trogs. As he ends: "Let’s find ways to ensure that by 2010 Americans spend less leisure time sitting passively in front of glowing screens and more time connected to their fellow citizens." Amen. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.
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> Just read an article in Sunday’s paper entitled ‘Has the U.s. Become a > Nation of Perilous Loners?’, by Michael Pakenham. The gist of it is > thatthe nation’s ’social capital’ is being shunken and by increased > tendency to isolate- e.g. behind a computer screen. As more and more of > the populace engages in this sort of isolation, the real life networks – > that include ‘mutual obligations’ disspiates.
Um, I think most of the people posting here *never* (in their lives) had much in the way of real life networks to begin with! That being true, *we* can hardly be said to be contributing to the decline.;-) For us its just the same old same old. Although, I admit, I do plan to cut back the time I spend on the fricken computer a little (uh tommorow, maybe) and work on socializing – yea! . >The end result is a > nation of ‘me-first’ brats, looking out for number one only.
Funny, not really a very acurate description of most shy people. > Civic mindedness, which was part of the 1950s, 1960s, has now gone the > way of the model T.
Was life really that much more social in the old days? The fact is that one of the major reasons many of us failed to learn socializing was precisely because our parents (who grew up in the old days) were *also* basically loners and shy! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.
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1womanscyberpers…@my-deja.com wrote:
: Um, I think most of the people posting here *never* (in their lives) : had much in the way of real life networks to begin with! That being : true, *we* can hardly be said to be contributing to the decline.;-) : For us its just the same old same old. : Although, I admit, I do plan to cut back the time I spend on the : fricken computer a little (uh tommorow, maybe) and work on socializing – : yea! . The irony is that it’s harder to find people to be social with thanks to the electronifying of everything. Now you have to take part in something structured or go to the bars. — CAUTION: Email Spam Killer in use. Leave this line in your reply! 152680 First Law of Economics: You can’t sell product to people without money. 4968238 bytes of spam mail deleted. http://www.wwa.com/~nospam/
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> Something like that movie ‘The Time Machine’ where the troglydytes kept > the Eloi nourished. The latter unable to do anything to help > themselves. > But in the end, the Eloi served as food for the trogs.
Actually, they were called Morlocks, or something like that. Understandable error I guess. T.H.
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Question:
I also heard during the initial meeting a passing mention of another local parish trying it several years ago and a having a high dropout rate. Again no knowledge why, yet.
This is not all that unusual due to high level of commitment required. This is not just an adult Sunday School class. I haven’t done it yet, but my friends who have are spending 6 to 7 hours a week between the sessions and preparing. I wouldn’t be surprised if many who start discover this is too big a time and energy commitment.
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But the EFM program, at least if done as it was in the church in which I
participated is excellent. I can’t imagine how something that teaches one too think theologically could cause any of the things that someone has accused it of. Remember, if you have no personal knowledge, it is gossip. Gossip is evil.<<< I stand by my assertions as statements of fact, in their entirity. You will notice that I question whether EFM was the actual cause, or simply coincidence. Yes.. .it is heresay, and that is how I presented it. Take it for the context in which it was presented please. Notive that teaching one to think theologically is differant from nurturing spiritual maturity and growth. It is my opinion that a vital Christian spirit is more important than having head knowledge about things religious. I don’t say that to criticize theological thinking in and of itself. When kept in the proper perspective it can be very good and life enriching. That seems to have been your experience (and mine also). However, when theology is not accompanied by prayer, worship of God, service to others, and careful life application it can become an excuse for apostasy, pride, and other various sins. I’ve meet more than one ex-seminarian who had once felt a call to Christian service to the point of commiting their life to it, but now no longer even bother to attend church. Is this a good thing? I believe not. — To respond via email remove the "X" from the address.
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For those who come into the thread late EFM (Education For Ministry) is a 4 year course of 9 month classes designed for laymen to "discover how to respond to the call to Christian service and carry out their ministries." The prospectus is online at: http://www.sewanee.edu/EFM/EFMhome.html I went to the 2nd organizational meeting last night and signed up. I did not ask any "pointed questions." I’m glad I didn’t. A digression, hopefully short. I came back to the church a couple of years ago after decades away, and only very recently became aware of the extremities of tolerance within the church. Having spent the last two weeks going over Spong’s Theses, I’m a little "gun shy" of what might be considered "modern" orthodox thought. I must admit I’m much more interested in what the Saints wrote about theology than Freud. I’m certainly not going to pay money to be subjected to the current rehash of heresies (until the 4th year). That said… It appears that EFM is subject to the same perception problems as Cursillo. It is a group within the whole group of a church. The mentor stated that sometimes non-members can get the impression that EFMers think they are "above" the regular layman because they are learning more about theology. I have a genetic distaste for "buzzwords" but there’s nothing better for the following. We are all on a "spiritual journey" and we are at different points on the path back to God. Where one is on the path makes absolutely no difference to God. (I sound pretty presumptious there to me too.) It’s simply the fact we’re on the path at all that matters. I suspect the further along the path one travels, the harder it gets…for surprising reasons. The stated course uses study of Sewanee supplied materials for learning about the scriptures and tradition. Also supplied are corporate worship materials for prayer. A very important part is something called theological reflection (TR). Our mentor gave a mini TR by reading the prodigal son, assigning us to three groups (one for the father, prodigal, other brother) and said to discuss the thoughts, feelings and defining actions from the assigned POV. Then out came the ubiquitous easel pad, the thoughts and feelings of all three were written down. During this period chaos (polite Episcopal variety) reigned. I’m used to hearing one POV on scripture in the homily, and even then taking away maybe a slightly different lesson from it. Other people had the strangest ideas about what this "obvious" parable was about. But then an interesting thing happened. Pointing to the thoughts and emotions columns, we noticed that we all agreed on the emotions. (And I was surprised to see that we’d nailed a goodly portion of the 7 Deadly Sins.) The mentor then said that from the stories in TR sometimes people in the group begin to open up their personal stories. A trust in the group forms and sometimes surprisingly personal stories are revealed, and that for this reason "what goes on in the room stays in the room." In the best of circumstances I could see this, again like Cursillo, might cause EFMers to be vague about "what goes on in the class?" type questions out of respect for the group’s trust. In the worst of circumstances, Starbuck’s hearsay makes sense. Allowing the group to turn Christian study and spiritual growth into a pop psychology group session could be disasterous. "One bad apple" could spoil the group. So, like the rest of life, it’s dangerous. So, now my question for EFMers is, am I beginning to form a hazy but accurate picture of the course? b+ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Where in the WORLD are you getting your information about EFM. Perhaps I missed something here. It is a wonderful educational program in which I participated; however, it is far too costly as are all programs in the Episcopal Church. It seems to me that education in ANY church should be But the EFM program, at least if done as it was in the church in which I participated is excellent. I can’t imagine how something that teaches one too think theologically could cause any of the things that someone has accused it of. Remember, if you have no personal knowledge, it is gossip. Gossip is evil. Well, you’ve certainly got my attention. We have a second organizational meeting Wed. and I believe I’ll ask a few pointed questions. I was under the impression it’s kind of a semi-seminary for laymen. The promo video showed smiling people, and it originates from the University of the South (Sewanee) which I thought was a conservative school, but I guess I need to make sure the agenda would anger Spong and the Jesus Seminar. b+ Anybody had experience with the Education For Ministry classes? We are starting a class and it looks like it would be a great resource for those interested in an in-depth look at theology. Any input?<<< I’m curious enough to have an interest in reading the material. The Diocese of Central Florida used it a number of years ago. Through the grapevine I heard that it turned into a horror story for the people involved. Several couples who were closely involved with it ended up in divorce, a couple of suicides, and several persons left the church after taking the class. Why? I really don’t know. Was it precipitated by EFM or by something else? I really don’t know. Perhaps EFM was very spiritually challenging, (we all grow through being challenged) but perhaps it was too challenging in proportion to the spiritual support that was available to the people in the group. Again.. I don’t have any first hand experience, only hearsay.. but enough to bring this word of caution to your attention. — To respond via email remove the "X" from the address.
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I am in the third year of the EFM program, and couldn’t be more satisfied. EFM mentors are trained to lead sessions, and are usually clergy or EFM graduates. You will not only get close to a seminary education, you will get a community building experience, with your fellow students. I recommend it highly — G Nolta The comfort derived from the misery of others is slight cicero
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Thanks for the info. My journey through this vale of tears has recently made me give slightly more than passing thought to wishing I could go to seminary. I’m coming to appreciate just how hard a priest’s job must be and don’t think I’d be up for it. But EFM sounds like it might be what I’m looking for. I have a few concerns that perhaps you could help me with. I got a reply that was quite negative hearsay. He did not presume to say the class caused the problem. From the sounds of the problems, it could just as easily been a bunch of folks on prozac. I also heard during the initial meeting a passing mention of another local parish trying it several years ago and a having a high dropout rate. Again no knowledge why, yet. I understand that an application for seminary is preceeded by psychiatric exams before entrance and again before graduation. A wonderful old priest explained this to me saying it was to weed out insane people before beginning and checking to make sure seminary hadn’t driven a person insane before letting him loose in the world with a collar. It would seem that EFM would build in safeguards to "protect the innocent" from whatever stresses seminaries cause that require shrinks evaluations. The documents would be very important. It would also seem that the mentor would be very important. At seminary one would have different professors, reinforcing, or counterbalancing each other. Is the documentation consistent and reinforcing of a "traditional" understanding of mere Christianity? Or is it open to the mentor’s interpretation? How to know if you have a bad mentor? Has your basic faith remained the same, or been strengthened? Maybe enhanced by the knowledge of Christian history, but not really altered in any way? Still believe in a Triune God, supernatural God, the old heresies of the nature of the Trinity still heresies in your mind? Do the bible studies accept the Truth (not inerrancy) of scripture? I know these may sound like stupid questions, but having done some cursory reading of Bishop Spong, I don’t want to end up near the end of my life like him. The poor fellow seems so hopeless. Looking at the prospectus, I’d love to jump directly to the 3rd year. Thanks for any help you can shed on my concerns. This is a "first draft" so they’re not very organized yet. God’s peace, bill+ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am in the third year of the EFM program, and couldn’t be more satisfied. EFM mentors are trained to lead sessions, and are usually clergy or EFM graduates. You will not only get close to a seminary education, you will get a community building experience, with your fellow students. I recommend it highly — G Nolta The comfort derived from the misery of others is slight cicero
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Anybody had experience with the Education For Ministry classes? We are
starting a class and it looks like it would be a great resource for those interested in an in-depth look at theology. Any input?<<< I’m curious enough to have an interest in reading the material. The Diocese of Central Florida used it a number of years ago. Through the grapevine I heard that it turned into a horror story for the people involved. Several couples who were closely involved with it ended up in divorce, a couple of suicides, and several persons left the church after taking the class. Why? I really don’t know. Was it precipitated by EFM or by something else? I really don’t know. Perhaps EFM was very spiritually challenging, (we all grow through being challenged) but perhaps it was too challenging in proportion to the spiritual support that was available to the people in the group. Again.. I don’t have any first hand experience, only hearsay.. but enough to bring this word of caution to your attention. — To respond via email remove the "X" from the address.
Response:
Where in the WORLD are you getting your information about EFM. Perhaps I missed something here. It is a wonderful educational program in which I participated; however, it is far too costly as are all programs in the Episcopal Church. It seems to me that education in ANY church should be But the EFM program, at least if done as it was in the church in which I participated is excellent. I can’t imagine how something that teaches one too think theologically could cause any of the things that someone has accused it of. Remember, if you have no personal knowledge, it is gossip. Gossip is evil. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, you’ve certainly got my attention. We have a second organizational meeting Wed. and I believe I’ll ask a few pointed questions. I was under the impression it’s kind of a semi-seminary for laymen. The promo video showed smiling people, and it originates from the University of the South (Sewanee) which I thought was a conservative school, but I guess I need to make sure the agenda would anger Spong and the Jesus Seminar. b+ Anybody had experience with the Education For Ministry classes? We are starting a class and it looks like it would be a great resource for those interested in an in-depth look at theology. Any input?<<< I’m curious enough to have an interest in reading the material. The Diocese of Central Florida used it a number of years ago. Through the grapevine I heard that it turned into a horror story for the people involved. Several couples who were closely involved with it ended up in divorce, a couple of suicides, and several persons left the church after taking the class. Why? I really don’t know. Was it precipitated by EFM or by something else? I really don’t know. Perhaps EFM was very spiritually challenging, (we all grow through being challenged) but perhaps it was too challenging in proportion to the spiritual support that was available to the people in the group. Again.. I don’t have any first hand experience, only hearsay.. but enough to bring this word of caution to your attention. — To respond via email remove the "X" from the address.
Response:
Anybody had experience with the Education For Ministry classes? We are starting a class and it looks like it would be a great resource for those interested in an in-depth look at theology. Any input? God’s peace, bill+
Response:
Well, you’ve certainly got my attention. We have a second organizational meeting Wed. and I believe I’ll ask a few pointed questions. I was under the impression it’s kind of a semi-seminary for laymen. The promo video showed smiling people, and it originates from the University of the South (Sewanee) which I thought was a conservative school, but I guess I need to make sure the agenda would anger Spong and the Jesus Seminar. b+ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anybody had experience with the Education For Ministry classes? We are starting a class and it looks like it would be a great resource for those interested in an in-depth look at theology. Any input?<<< I’m curious enough to have an interest in reading the material. The Diocese of Central Florida used it a number of years ago. Through the grapevine I heard that it turned into a horror story for the people involved. Several couples who were closely involved with it ended up in divorce, a couple of suicides, and several persons left the church after taking the class. Why? I really don’t know. Was it precipitated by EFM or by something else? I really don’t know. Perhaps EFM was very spiritually challenging, (we all grow through being challenged) but perhaps it was too challenging in proportion to the spiritual support that was available to the people in the group. Again.. I don’t have any first hand experience, only hearsay.. but enough to bring this word of caution to your attention. — To respond via email remove the "X" from the address.
Response:
Question:
Dear Hilary, The reason that I seemed to attack only women is that it is only women, a very few women, who are doing this. I have not heard of men saying that they are going to father children and no woman is going to be around as mother figures. This would be a little difficult since the man would need a woman in the beginning as a surrogate. However, I am sure that some men in divorce battles have this attitude that their children do not need a mom. I spit on this attitude. Such men are selfish and stupid. (:-) Roger
Response:
I am so happy that we have reached an understanding. If you had looked at my subject, you might have seen where I was going with this topic. Perhaps I should have had the subject as "Jody Foster et. al." since Jody Foster is a more obvious example. Frankly, this topic has occuppied a great deal of my time and thought because I felt uneasy with such a huge load of misunderstanding. Domestic violence and rampaging teenagers are definitely harmful. Unfortunately a lot of the teenagers also harm other as well as themselves. But the causes of the rampages are much more complex than single parent families.
In the black community, it is easy to see that young men raised exclusively by mothers and older sisters feel compelled to become hyper-macho in order to define and assert their masculinity. This makes for a lot of ill-health in the form of dead rivals, etc. There has been a lot of progress in this area by providing these young men with strong male role models. Unfortunately, this effort in the schools has been impeded by the ACLU et. al. because said classrooms were exclusively boys. There may be some benefit for young girls to also have strong male role models. I think that the need for both male and female energy goes deeper than just male and female identification. Roger, not Fred Phelps (:-)
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please correct me if I am wrong, I thought that the father of Madonna’s child either lives in the same apartment with them and is involved with raising the girl. Dear Shallah, It was my understanding that Modanna made her lover/trainer sign a non-parental rights declaration. I could be wrong. And while we are on the subject of good parenting, what of the responsibility of the men to NOT get a woman pregnant when he do not wish to have a child with her? 100% The way I see it it is a 50% – 50% responsibility. Like a good marriage, it is 100% – 100%, not 50% – 50%. I have seen many articles and news reports for a long time on the women who have kids on their own and are on welfare but ONE report on the males who get multiple females pregnant and who then end up raising the kids on their own while the state gives the women financial aide as there is no way for these guys to pay their share for their 4+ offspring. And so I get mad when they want to force women on welfare to get their tubes tied when they aren’t planning on getting the males who get multiple women with child ‘fixed’. I say if you do one you have to do the other or it is sexism. Unless these women are forcing themselves upon the men, that is. Shallah, I agree 100%. I am appalled at men who say that they are going to screw any woman they want and if she gets pregnant, too bad for her. Who is caring about the children? Who is caring about the future of America and of the human race?
Ummm…I was under the impression that Americans were_part_of the human race. Maybe I’m wrong and the rest of the world is just a chimera. I hope not, because that would put paid to about 90% of us. pax silverfern
Response:
The health of our relationships and the quality of our parenting has EVERYTHING to do with our physical and emotional health. That’s your version of alternative medicine? It is a part of good health, an important part. I am sure that far more people are harmed by domestic violence and rampaging teenagers than floride or vaccinations.
Domestic violence and rampaging teenagers are definitely harmful. Unfortunately a lot of the teenagers also harm other as well as themselves. But the causes of the rampages are much more complex than single parent families. It is totally repugnant to me that you should post such ill-thought-out opinions, and that you should think you are being benevolent by doing so. What is it that I have said, specifically, that is repugnant to you? I think what is ill-thought-out is the reading, not the writing. I said that people like Madonna (and Jody Foster) who deliberately have children with the intent of not having men around so that those children are without fathers are stupid and selfish, and that those women are harming the health of those children with those choices.
You may have meant to, Roger, but your first post made no mention of any exclusion nor any special cases such as divorce. I clearly and distinctly excluded those women (and men) who found it necessary to divorce bad partners.
You most certainly did, in your_second_post after I reacted. Is the idea that children need both good fathers and good mothers repugnant to you?
It’s a wonderful idea. In fact it’s such a wonderful idea that it’s an ideal, something to be aimed for, but in the real world it is often out of reach. Are you saying that men are so evil that we should just do away with them and that children do not need men.
I_love_men. They are the other half that makes the whole. I think the Greeks(?) had a great idea: that originally humans were of a single gender, then they were split, and spent the rest of their lives looking for their mirror images. Some were (are) lucky enough to find theirs. (That’s the origin of the phrase ‘the other half’.) Perhaps we should round up all of them men and put them in cages.
Why? Off the weak ones and milk the strong one of their sperm, and that is how we will keep the species going.
I read somewhere that human parthenogenesis (single sex [female] reproduction was theoretically possible theoretically that would eliminate the need for the male. But oh so_boring_. When Jody Foster announced to the world that she was going to have a baby without a man, all of the shallow people cheered. Oops, unfortunately, I doubt if the soul of that baby cheered. I bet he/she was hoping to have a father around. If a man said that he was going to have a surragote (sp?) woman have a baby for him and then take the child and keep the child away from any mother figures, people would be up in arms.
Isn’t that happening already with some surrogacy arrangements? I disapprove strongly, but don’t hear any uproar about it. How dare you suggest blaming the_mothers_for the shortcomings of the fathers. Where did I say that. I do not dare suggest that. I didn’t.
Yes you did, in your first post. Listening to your replies convinces me that you didn’t really mean to say it. So the prospective father need take no responsibility for the pregnancy? Where did I say that? It always was biblical to demonise the woman. I do not demonize women. I demonize people who deliberately have children with the intent of not having both parents around.
I accept that you didn’t mean to. Have you read Revelation lately? I rarely read the Bible and I never read Revelations, which I find to be silly.
It’s Revelation. no ’s’. Nevertheless this bible book and some of paul’s writings, along with the OT have been the ‘justification’ for centuries of demonisation, suspicion and all sorts of other nasties. I just thought you were being biblical because you didn’t seem to like my criticism of a preacher who condemned women and homosexuals in one breath. The link seemed to be religious. If not, then of course I take it back and apologise. The last time I heard comments like that was from a preacher of a fundamentalist christian sect, who also suggested that all homosexuals should be killed. Then you are not listening.
Communication takes more than a listener. Umm…you don’t_really_think that all homosexuals should be killed? Yeah. I know it’s off topic, but I had to ask. My favorite healer, Dr. Robert Gorter, MD, a personal friend, is openly gay. While giving me acupuncture, he has frequently given me affectionate and friendly back rubs. I have absolutely nothing against gays whatsoever.
I’m with you. That poor lad in Wyoming who got killed for being gay, I hope they take his murderers and torture them to death. I realize that this is not the opinion of the Gay and Lesbian Alliance. They are against the death penalty.
Dunno about the death penalty. Otherwise we seem to be in agreement. pax silverfern
Response:
sorry for the double post, I just wanted to soften that a bit. It sounded pretty harsh. I didn’t mean for it to: I know tone doesn’t carry well over the internet. I hope ho one thinks I was being nasty. If so, I apologize. — Hilary –Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the network. –Void where prohibited. –Keep out of reach of children. –Watch this space for further instruction.
|| ||People sacrifice when they love someone. (snip) ||Most women understand this intuitively. Many men do not understand this. | |So you should not be attacking women then… in fact in my opinion, you |should not make statements like "Women who deliberately have children |without a good father around for |their children are stupid and selfish." Because it takes the egg AND the |sperm. | |This was from your original post: "Every child is harmed who does not grow |up with a good father (and a good mother)." While I do agree that the |classic nuclear family is optimal *under optimal conditions,* I come from a |classic nuclear family, and my life, pardon me, was shit. I overcame it |because I wanted to, because I knew there was more to life than a cycle of |abuse and broken relationships. I now have a happy, healthy, equal |relationship and two beautiful children. But that doesn’t mean I have |forgotten the nights I would lay in bed wishing awful things. On the other |hand, if I had not experienced those things, I would not be who I am, where |I am, *why* I am. | |And that goes right back to taking responsibility. People make bad choices. |And they can be overcome. And that results in good physical and mental |health. | |– |Hilary | |–Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the network. |–Void where prohibited. |–Keep out of reach of children. |–Watch this space for further instruction. | |
|| ||I see your points, but raising the issue merely to say that a single |mother ||is stupid does nothing to offer a solution. || ||Dear Hilary, || ||I never said that single mothers are stupid. That would be stupid of ||me. Obviously some women cannot help their situation since there are ||so many couples that cannot get along and so many people that make ||poor mates and parents. || || I would say women very seldom "deliberately" have children when there is |no stable "nuclear" family. || ||Probably, but too many people applaud when some woman says that she ||does not need a man to have a family. Divorce is sometimes necessary. ||Who the heck am I to decide when someone else’s relationship is ||unworkable. || ||Most ||single-parent households began as surprises. Or divorces. So you are ||addressing a large number of women who perhaps made bad choices but who |are ||stuck anyway… || ||Probably the biggest mistake that most women make is in their choice ||of men. This mistake is frequently based upon the "falling in love" ||paradigm of mate selection. Falling in love has exactly zip to do ||with success in marriage. Ask any marriage encounter facilitator. We ||as a culture are deluged from Hollywood with the notion that falling ||in love, infatuation, falling in lust, feelings are the correct way to ||decide upon a mate. This is a LIE. This is by far the biggest and ||most destructive lie in our society. Those things may play the role ||of firing the engine, but for them to be the deciding factor causes ||more problems than any other single lie. || ||What should be the deciding factor? First, before the relationship ||gets too hot and heavy, use your head. Try to determine if this ||person is generally a good person. How he (or she) treats you is ||irrelevant, because they are probably already "in love" with you and ||will act wonderfully. Not that they are trying to deceive you, but ||being "in love" makes people act wonderfully, TEMPORARILY. Try to see ||how they treat unattractive people, children, old people, animals, ||beings whose only attribute is that they are living beings and thus ||infinitely precious but not necessarily attractive to your target ||subject. Does this person look upon loving kindness towards others as ||a burden or as a opportunity. Does this person have patience? Is he ||or she trustworthy? Does he or she take responsibility for his or her ||actions. || ||Secondly, when already in a marriage or other relationship, both ||parties must know and understand that commitment is the axle around ||which a successful relationship revolves. Feelings always change. ||You have good ones and you have bad ones. Cutting your partner slack ||and being determined to stick through the bad times builds closeness ||and relationship. But, of course, both parties must understand this ||and be willing to act upon this understanding. || ||Sincerely || || ||Roger, happily married | |
Response:
Actually, there was a very interesting study done on two towns in Pennsylvania several years ago. Both towns were very similar, Italian immigrants. Compensation was made for differences in smoking habits, eating habits, etc. The only significant difference between the two towns was the strong family relationships as seen in Italy was breaking down in one town but not in the other. The town in which family structure was breaking down had much worse health than the town in which the family structure remained strong. This study I think was presented in Natural Health magazine, but I cannot find it. The presentation in the magazine was much more credible than what I am able to present. My wife’s family and culture has a VERY strong family structure, and when I chat with her about diet, hygiene, and other health issues, I can’t understand why they are so healthy. This is not very scientific, and they certainly have plenty of health problems. But she tells me that while growing up to 23 years old, she had never heard of breast cancer and back problems. No one in her family needed braces, and it is obvious that her teeth are admirably straight. They do have lots of other health problems, but their health problems are dramatically different from our health problems. Because of this, I am convinced that family "health" and other issues that biochemistry does not address play an important role in health. Roger
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, there was a very interesting study done on two towns in Pennsylvania several years ago. Both towns were very similar, Italian immigrants. Compensation was made for differences in smoking habits, eating habits, etc. The only significant difference between the two towns was the strong family relationships as seen in Italy was breaking down in one town but not in the other. The town in which family structure was breaking down had much worse health than the town in which the family structure remained strong. This study I think was presented in Natural Health magazine, but I cannot find it. The presentation in the magazine was much more credible than what I am able to present. My wife’s family and culture has a VERY strong family structure, and when I chat with her about diet, hygiene, and other health issues, I can’t understand why they are so healthy. This is not very scientific, and they certainly have plenty of health problems. But she tells me that while growing up to 23 years old, she had never heard of breast cancer and back problems. No one in her family needed braces, and it is obvious that her teeth are admirably straight. They do have lots of other health problems, but their health problems are dramatically different from our health problems. Because of this, I am convinced that family "health" and other issues that biochemistry does not address play an important role in health. Roger
I forgot to mention that the scientists who did the study concluded that strong family and community structure was more important than even smoking to a person’s health. Someone writing an editorial in the same issue (I am not sure that the article was Natural Health, but I think that it was.) regretted that they ever gave anyone a hard time (sort of anti-community building) for what they ate and regretted that they ever refrained from going out to pizza with friends. Roger
Response:
Please correct me if I am wrong, I thought that the father of Madonna’s child either lives in the same apartment with them and is involved with raising the girl. Dear Shallah, It was my understanding that Modanna made her lover/trainer sign a non-parental rights declaration. I could be wrong.
I do have problems with the legal idea of parental rights. Although I am crazy about my 6 year-old owner-daughter, and although I would be devastated if she were taken away from me, it seems to me that the rights of parents should be secondary to the rights of children. It seems like in some custody battles, the rights of the children to a healthy and loving environment come secondary to parent’s rights to have custody of their children. Roger
Response:
| |People sacrifice when they love someone. (snip) |Most women understand this intuitively. Many men do not understand this. So you should not be attacking women then… in fact in my opinion, you should not make statements like "Women who deliberately have children without a good father around for their children are stupid and selfish." Because it takes the egg AND the sperm. This was from your original post: "Every child is harmed who does not grow up with a good father (and a good mother)." While I do agree that the classic nuclear family is optimal *under optimal conditions,* I come from a classic nuclear family, and my life, pardon me, was shit. I overcame it because I wanted to, because I knew there was more to life than a cycle of abuse and broken relationships. I now have a happy, healthy, equal relationship and two beautiful children. But that doesn’t mean I have forgotten the nights I would lay in bed wishing awful things. On the other hand, if I had not experienced those things, I would not be who I am, where I am, *why* I am. And that goes right back to taking responsibility. People make bad choices. And they can be overcome. And that results in good physical and mental health. — Hilary –Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the network. –Void where prohibited. –Keep out of reach of children. –Watch this space for further instruction.
| |I see your points, but raising the issue merely to say that a single mother |is stupid does nothing to offer a solution. | |Dear Hilary, | |I never said that single mothers are stupid. That would be stupid of |me. Obviously some women cannot help their situation since there are |so many couples that cannot get along and so many people that make |poor mates and parents. | | I would say women very seldom "deliberately" have children when there is no stable "nuclear" family. | |Probably, but too many people applaud when some woman says that she |does not need a man to have a family. Divorce is sometimes necessary. |Who the heck am I to decide when someone else’s relationship is |unworkable. | |Most |single-parent households began as surprises. Or divorces. So you are |addressing a large number of women who perhaps made bad choices but who are |stuck anyway… | |Probably the biggest mistake that most women make is in their choice |of men. This mistake is frequently based upon the "falling in love" |paradigm of mate selection. Falling in love has exactly zip to do |with success in marriage. Ask any marriage encounter facilitator. We |as a culture are deluged from Hollywood with the notion that falling |in love, infatuation, falling in lust, feelings are the correct way to |decide upon a mate. This is a LIE. This is by far the biggest and |most destructive lie in our society. Those things may play the role |of firing the engine, but for them to be the deciding factor causes |more problems than any other single lie. | |What should be the deciding factor? First, before the relationship |gets too hot and heavy, use your head. Try to determine if this |person is generally a good person. How he (or she) treats you is |irrelevant, because they are probably already "in love" with you and |will act wonderfully. Not that they are trying to deceive you, but |being "in love" makes people act wonderfully, TEMPORARILY. Try to see |how they treat unattractive people, children, old people, animals, |beings whose only attribute is that they are living beings and thus |infinitely precious but not necessarily attractive to your target |subject. Does this person look upon loving kindness towards others as |a burden or as a opportunity. Does this person have patience? Is he |or she trustworthy? Does he or she take responsibility for his or her |actions. | |Secondly, when already in a marriage or other relationship, both |parties must know and understand that commitment is the axle around |which a successful relationship revolves. Feelings always change. |You have good ones and you have bad ones. Cutting your partner slack |and being determined to stick through the bad times builds closeness |and relationship. But, of course, both parties must understand this |and be willing to act upon this understanding. | |Sincerely | | |Roger, happily married
Response:
1) This is pointlessly inflammatory. LOL. It IS inflammatory. It is NOT pointless. It has EVERYTHING to do with health If you cannot see that, I suggest that you crawl out of your left brain prison and look at the world with your entire brain.
You ought to fire up your left brain occasionally and put it to use. I could connect virtually anything to the area of health if I put my mind to it. But that wouldn’t mean it was appropriate for this newsgroup. And neither was your rant about single mothers. Alternative health requires personal responsibility.
So does any kind of health. Gee, this all was so obvious that only amongst the prisoners of the left-brain was it necessary to explain it. David’s response is like saying that trying to prevent nuclear war has nothing to do with health.
For the most part, it doesn’t. If you start posting stuff about preventing nuclear war on this newsgroup, I can assure you I’ll be after you about that, too. Love your child. Be with your child. Talk with your child. Listen to your child. Like your child.
Set a good example for your child by posting on-topic, and not assuming that everything you want to say is relevant. — David Wright :: wright at ibnets.com :: Not a Spokesman for Anyone These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. "Few things give a greater feeling of security than a full gas tank."
Response:
Please correct me if I am wrong, I thought that the father of Madonna’s child either lives in the same apartment with them and is involved with raising the girl.
Dear Shallah, It was my understanding that Modanna made her lover/trainer sign a non-parental rights declaration. I could be wrong. And while we are on the subject of good parenting, what of the responsibility of the men to NOT get a woman pregnant when he do not wish to have a child with her?
100% The way I see it it is a 50% – 50% responsibility.
Like a good marriage, it is 100% – 100%, not 50% – 50%. I have seen many articles and news reports for a long time on the women who have kids on their own and are on welfare but ONE report on the males who get multiple females pregnant and who then end up raising the kids on their own while the state gives the women financial aide as there is no way for these guys to pay their share for their 4+ offspring. And so I get mad when they want to force women on welfare to get their tubes tied when they aren’t planning on getting the males who get multiple women with child ‘fixed’. I say if you do one you have to do the other or it is sexism. Unless these women are forcing themselves upon the men, that is.
Shallah, I agree 100%. I am appalled at men who say that they are going to screw any woman they want and if she gets pregnant, too bad for her. Who is caring about the children? Who is caring about the future of America and of the human race? Roger
Response:
Please correct me if I am wrong, I thought that the father of Madonna’s child either lives in the same apartment with them and is involved with raising the girl. And while we are on the subject of good parenting, what of the responsibility of the men to NOT get a woman pregnant when he do not wish to have a child with her? The way I see it it is a 50% – 50% responsibility. I have seen many articles and news reports for a long time on the women who have kids on their own and are on welfare but ONE report on the males who get multiple females pregnant and who then end up raising the kids on their own while the state gives the women financial aide as there is no way for these guys to pay their share for their 4+ offspring. And so I get mad when they want to force women on welfare to get their tubes tied when they aren’t planning on getting the males who get multiple women with child ‘fixed’. I say if you do one you have to do the other or it is sexism. Unless these women are forcing themselves upon the men, that is.
Response:
The health of our relationships and the quality of our parenting has EVERYTHING to do with our physical and emotional health. That’s your version of alternative medicine?
It is a part of good health, an important part. I am sure that far more people are harmed by domestic violence and rampaging teenagers than floride or vaccinations. It is totally repugnant to me that you should post such ill-thought-out opinions, and that you should think you are being benevolent by doing so.
What is it that I have said, specifically, that is repugnant to you? I think what is ill-thought-out is the reading, not the writing. I said that people like Madonna (and Jody Foster) who deliberately have children with the intent of not having men around so that those children are without fathers are stupid and selfish, and that those women are harming the health of those children with those choices. I clearly and distinctly excluded those women (and men) who found it necessary to divorce bad partners. Is the idea that children need both good fathers and good mothers repugnant to you? Are you saying that men are so evil that we should just do away with them and that children do not need men. Perhaps we should round up all of them men and put them in cages. Off the weak ones and milk the strong one of their sperm, and that is how we will keep the species going. When Jody Foster announced to the world that she was going to have a baby without a man, all of the shallow people cheered. Oops, unfortunately, I doubt if the soul of that baby cheered. I bet he/she was hoping to have a father around. If a man said that he was going to have a surragote (sp?) woman have a baby for him and then take the child and keep the child away from any mother figures, people would be up in arms. How dare you suggest blaming the_mothers_for the shortcomings of the fathers.
Where did I say that. I do not dare suggest that. I didn’t. So the prospective father need take no responsibility for the pregnancy?
Where did I say that? It always was biblical to demonise the woman.
I do not demonize women. I demonize people who deliberately have children with the intent of not having both parents around. Have you read Revelation lately?
I rarely read the Bible and I never read Revelations, which I find to be silly. The last time I heard comments like that was from a preacher of a fundamentalist christian sect, who also suggested that all homosexuals should be killed.
Then you are not listening. Umm…you don’t_really_think that all homosexuals should be killed? Yeah. I know it’s off topic, but I had to ask.
My favorite healer, Dr. Robert Gorter, MD, a personal friend, is openly gay. While giving me acupuncture, he has frequently given me affectionate and friendly back rubs. I have absolutely nothing against gays whatsoever. That poor lad in Wyoming who got killed for being gay, I hope they take his murderers and torture them to death. I realize that this is not the opinion of the Gay and Lesbian Alliance. They are against the death penalty. Roger
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Staying at home with your pre-school children and being home when your school children come home from school is one of the best ways to insure that your children grow up healthy, physically and mentally. Women who deliberately have children without a good father around for their children are stupid and selfish. No child wants to grow up without a good father (or a good mother). Every child is harmed who does not grow up with a good father (and a good mother). Your comments are irrelevant to this NG. The health of our relationships and the quality of our parenting has EVERYTHING to do with our physical and emotional health.
That’s your version of alternative medicine? In addition I find them totally repugnant. So it is totally repugnant to you that I should care about the health and welfare of children.
It is totally repugnant to me that you should post such ill-thought-out opinions, and that you should think you are being benevolent by doing so. How dare you suggest blaming the_mothers_for the shortcomings of the fathers. Show me where I blamed the mothers for the shortcomings of the fathers.
‘Women who deliberately have children without a good father around for their children are stupid and selfish.’ Women who find it necessary to divorce bad husbands are not to blame. Women who deliberately get pregnant in order to have children with the premeditated intent of NOT having a father around
So the prospective father need take no responsibility for the pregnancy? It always was biblical to demonise the woman. Have you read Revelation lately? The last time I heard comments like that was from a preacher of a fundamentalist christian sect, who also suggested that all homosexuals should be killed. It is too bad that you had an emotional reaction like that because that means that you did not get the message.
‘…an emotional reaction’ like what? ‘…an emotional reaction’ to what? — your comments or the preaching of a silly man with delusions of grandeur–or both? Is there such a thing as a reaction without emotion? I think they are mutually exclusive: any reaction (like yours, for instance) is by definition emotional, and any emotion is, also by definition, a reaction. Umm…you don’t_really_think that all homosexuals should be killed? Yeah. I know it’s off topic, but I had to ask. If you cannot provide a good father and a good mother for your prospective children, don’t have children! Some parents die before their children are grown. How very inconsiderate of them. Roger use your brains, pleeese. How does this have any relavance at all? Obviously parents die. Who is blaming them. I guess you are still reacting emotionally. Perhaps you have a guilty conscience and resent me for reminding you.
Pardon? Such an easy out, the left brain blaming the (perceived) right brain. The degradation of the word ‘emotional’ into an accusation. You are a baby at this, Roger dear. Try to keep calm and logical, and remember that emotions of themselves are neither good nor bad; it’s what we_do_with them that matters. Try to remember that next time you have a teensy weensy overreaction. pax silverfern
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Staying at home with your pre-school children and being home when your school children come home from school is one of the best ways to insure that your children grow up healthy, physically and mentally. Women who deliberately have children without a good father around for their children are stupid and selfish. No child wants to grow up without a good father (or a good mother). Every child is harmed who does not grow up with a good father (and a good mother). Your comments are irrelevant to this NG.
The health of our relationships and the quality of our parenting has EVERYTHING to do with our physical and emotional health. In addition I find them totally repugnant.
So it is totally repugnant to you that I should care about the health and welfare of children. How dare you suggest blaming the_mothers_for the shortcomings of the fathers.
Show me where I blamed the mothers for the shortcomings of the fathers. Women who find it necessary to divorce bad husbands are not to blame. Women who deliberately get pregnant in order to have children with the premeditated intent of NOT having a father around The last time I heard comments like that was from a preacher of a fundamentalist christian sect, who also suggested that all homosexuals should be killed.
It is too bad that you had an emotional reaction like that because that means that you did not get the message. If you cannot provide a good father and a good mother for your prospective children, don’t have children! Some parents die before their children are grown. How very inconsiderate of them. Roger use your brains, pleeese.
How does this have any relavance at all? Obviously parents die. Who is blaming them. I guess you are still reacting emotionally. Perhaps you have a guilty conscience and resent me for reminding you. Roger
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I see your points, but raising the issue merely to say that a single mother is stupid does nothing to offer a solution.
Dear Hilary, I never said that single mothers are stupid. That would be stupid of me. Obviously some women cannot help their situation since there are so many couples that cannot get along and so many people that make poor mates and parents. I would say women very seldom "deliberately" have children when there is no stable "nuclear" family.
Probably, but too many people applaud when some woman says that she does not need a man to have a family. Divorce is sometimes necessary. Who the heck am I to decide when someone else’s relationship is unworkable. Most single-parent households began as surprises. Or divorces. So you are addressing a large number of women who perhaps made bad choices but who are stuck anyway…
Probably the biggest mistake that most women make is in their choice of men. This mistake is frequently based upon the "falling in love" paradigm of mate selection. Falling in love has exactly zip to do with success in marriage. Ask any marriage encounter facilitator. We as a culture are deluged from Hollywood with the notion that falling in love, infatuation, falling in lust, feelings are the correct way to decide upon a mate. This is a LIE. This is by far the biggest and most destructive lie in our society. Those things may play the role of firing the engine, but for them to be the deciding factor causes more problems than any other single lie. What should be the deciding factor? First, before the relationship gets too hot and heavy, use your head. Try to determine if this person is generally a good person. How he (or she) treats you is irrelevant, because they are probably already "in love" with you and will act wonderfully. Not that they are trying to deceive you, but being "in love" makes people act wonderfully, TEMPORARILY. Try to see how they treat unattractive people, children, old people, animals, beings whose only attribute is that they are living beings and thus infinitely precious but not necessarily attractive to your target subject. Does this person look upon loving kindness towards others as a burden or as a opportunity. Does this person have patience? Is he or she trustworthy? Does he or she take responsibility for his or her actions. Secondly, when already in a marriage or other relationship, both parties must know and understand that commitment is the axle around which a successful relationship revolves. Feelings always change. You have good ones and you have bad ones. Cutting your partner slack and being determined to stick through the bad times builds closeness and relationship. But, of course, both parties must understand this and be willing to act upon this understanding. People sacrifice when they love someone. Very few people realize that if they sacrifice for someone else their love for them will blossom. We sacrifice when we love, but we also love when we sacrifice. Sacrifice makes love. Most women understand this intuitively. Many men do not understand this. Sincerely Roger, happily married
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Staying at home with your pre-school children and being home when your school children come home from school is one of the best ways to insure that your children grow up healthy, physically and mentally. Women who deliberately have children without a good father around for their children are stupid and selfish. No child wants to grow up without a good father (or a good mother). Every child is harmed who does not grow up with a good father (and a good mother).
Your comments are irrelevant to this NG. In addition I find them totally repugnant. I thought you had more sense, Roger. How dare you suggest blaming the_mothers_for the shortcomings of the fathers. The last time I heard comments like that was from a preacher of a fundamentalist christian sect, who also suggested that all homosexuals should be killed. If you cannot provide a good father and a good mother for your prospective children, don’t have children!
Some parents die before their children are grown. How very inconsiderate of them. Roger use your brains, pleeese. pax silverfern
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Staying at home with your pre-school children and being home when your school children come home from school is one of the best ways to insure that your children grow up healthy, physically and mentally. Women who deliberately have children without a good father around for their children are stupid and selfish. No child wants to grow up without a good father (or a good mother). Every child is harmed who does not grow up with a good father (and a good mother). If you cannot provide a good father and a good mother for your prospective children, don’t have children! Roger
Not that this topic of conversation BELONGS here in the first place, BUT, I dont know of a perfect parent out there.. But when you find him or her, please, LET ME KNOW!
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So for all of the bad fathers and mothers out there that are so selfish that they cant raise there children, you will pay when you get old, the attention you didn’t spend on your kids will not be spent on you in your time of need.
And who of us here haven’t know very good parents who were abandoned by their grown children? The children turn into adults, move far from home due to jobs and/or other obligations and the old parents are left to fend for themselves. The nursing homes are bursting at the seams with such old folks. — Carol….. "Tell me what you need, and I’ll tell you how to live without it."
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I see your points, but raising the issue merely to say that a single mother is stupid does nothing to offer a solution. I would say women very seldom "deliberately" have children when there is no stable "nuclear" family. Most single-parent households began as surprises. Or divorces. So you are addressing a large number of women who perhaps made bad choices but who are stuck anyway… That doesn’t make them stupid, it just makes them people. And people sometimes need assistance, advice, intervention, outreach… sometmes they need someone to firmly say, "You *must* not do that again." But to brand them as stupid has no value to their improvement. And it does nothing to assist their children in seeing themselves as healthy people with potential. Love your child. Be with your child. Talk with your child. Listen to your child. Like your child.
I do. I am. Always. Every day. More than my life. Some people would say I was stupid to have children considering I had to work. Especially my employer. But I very much identify myself as a mother, which is why I am here in groups that will help me slowly wean my household off of chemicals that would hurt my children and the world they grow up in. But do we not also need to teach our children tolerance? And that mistakes do not mean you’re stupid or bad or evil, they only mean that you should grow from them and learn. — Hilary –Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the network. –Void where prohibited. –Keep out of reach of children. –Watch this space for further instruction. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1) This is pointlessly inflammatory. LOL. It IS inflammatory. It is NOT pointless. It has EVERYTHING to do with health If you cannot see that, I suggest that you crawl out of your left brain prison and look at the world with your entire brain. An obvious example: A young girl is neglected at home and raised by strangers. She grows up feeling unwanted and unloved. (Poor mental health) She gets to drinking as a teenager. (Bad for one’s health). When her mother tells her that she can do something, anything, she flips out and gets into the car as a 16 year old and drives recklessly and kills herself. (Particularly bad for one’s health.) Alternative health requires personal responsibility. Young people who feel unwanted and unloved are much less likely to take responsibility than other young people. People who feel unwanted and unloved are more likely to take longer to start taking responsibility for their lives. People without proper guidence are more likely to be a threat to themselves and to others. Feeling unwanted and unloved is only one of the many problems that results from poor and absent parenting. Gee, this all was so obvious that only amongst the prisoners of the left-brain was it necessary to explain it. David’s response is like saying that trying to prevent nuclear war has nothing to do with health. 2) It has nothing to do with alternative health. See above. It has everything to do with health. The left-brain fractionalizers, those who seperate everything from everything else would not notice the connection. Roger
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1) This is pointlessly inflammatory.
LOL. It IS inflammatory. It is NOT pointless. It has EVERYTHING to do with health If you cannot see that, I suggest that you crawl out of your left brain prison and look at the world with your entire brain. An obvious example: A young girl is neglected at home and raised by strangers. She grows up feeling unwanted and unloved. (Poor mental health) She gets to drinking as a teenager. (Bad for one’s health). When her mother tells her that she can do something, anything, she flips out and gets into the car as a 16 year old and drives recklessly and kills herself. (Particularly bad for one’s health.) Alternative health requires personal responsibility. Young people who feel unwanted and unloved are much less likely to take responsibility than other young people. People who feel unwanted and unloved are more likely to take longer to start taking responsibility for their lives. People without proper guidence are more likely to be a threat to themselves and to others. Feeling unwanted and unloved is only one of the many problems that results from poor and absent parenting. Gee, this all was so obvious that only amongst the prisoners of the left-brain was it necessary to explain it. David’s response is like saying that trying to prevent nuclear war has nothing to do with health. 2) It has nothing to do with alternative health.
See above. It has everything to do with health. The left-brain fractionalizers, those who seperate everything from everything else would not notice the connection. Love your child. Be with your child. Talk with your child. Listen to your child. Like your child. Roger
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Staying at home with your pre-school children and being home when your school children come home from school is one of the best ways to insure that your children grow up healthy, physically and mentally. Women who deliberately have children without a good father around for their children are stupid and selfish. No child wants to grow up without a good father (or a good mother). Every child is harmed who does not grow up with a good father (and a good mother). If you cannot provide a good father and a good mother for your prospective children, don’t have children!
1) This is pointlessly inflammatory. 2) It has nothing to do with alternative health. so what the hell is it doing on this newsgroup? — David Wright :: wright at ibnets.com :: Not a Spokesman for Anyone These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. "Few things give a greater feeling of security than a full gas tank."
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I have three young children, for the last 10 years Ive spent all of my afterwork time with them ,and there mother stayed at home to raise the kids until I came home and we then did it together. It has been the most rewarding and God-given happiness of my life and the children so far have show to us as well as other people what a proper love and upbringing can do. Just to be attentive to your families needs is the most important time in your childs life. So for all of the bad fathers and mothers out there that are so selfish that they cant raise there children, you will pay when you get old, the attention you didn’t spend on your kids will not be spent on you in your time of need.
Buzz, It would be great if fathers could stay home also. My wife’s father and mother were home all of the time because her father had a mechanic’s shop right next door to their home. If we could push hard enough, we could make this happen. But right now, it seems a long way off. Roger
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I have three young children, for the last 10 years Ive spent all of my afterwork time with them ,and there mother stayed at home to raise the kids until I came home and we then did it together. It has been the most rewarding and God-given happiness of my life and the children so far have show to us as well as other people what a proper love and upbringing can do. Just to be attentive to your families needs is the most important time in your childs life. So for all of the bad fathers and mothers out there that are so selfish that they cant raise there children, you will pay when you get old, the attention you didn’t spend on your kids will not be spent on you in your time of need.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Staying at home with your pre-school children and being home when your school children come home from school is one of the best ways to insure that your children grow up healthy, physically and mentally. Women who deliberately have children without a good father around for their children are stupid and selfish. No child wants to grow up without a good father (or a good mother). Every child is harmed who does not grow up with a good father (and a good mother). If you cannot provide a good father and a good mother for your prospective children, don’t have children! Roger
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Staying at home with your pre-school children and being home when your school children come home from school is one of the best ways to insure that your children grow up healthy, physically and mentally. Women who deliberately have children without a good father around for their children are stupid and selfish. No child wants to grow up without a good father (or a good mother). Every child is harmed who does not grow up with a good father (and a good mother). If you cannot provide a good father and a good mother for your prospective children, don’t have children! Roger
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Question:
# Is it? It strikes me as a strange thing to do: to say that # this piece of underground earth is within the circle but # that this other piece is not… # Not if the cone is very steep… maybe a conic frustum or a # cylinder would work. Once around the circle to cast the lower # edge, once for the upper.
I once over-heard God and the Devil arguing over this notion of a trinity! I wonder if such a thing exists! For I could only imagine how it would look Because all God would ever talk about, were these dreams he had had, of these most perfect of figures and shapes. And the pure splendor of a divine order that would be contained therein. But the only show of recognition that Devil would ever give towards God, and God’s dreams of hope, would be a taunting display of the most twisted and folded parody of his ideas. So I don’t think I could ever picture God, within my mind, reconciling with his old foe. But If I ever did, oh what a compromise I could only imagine it would be. Hmm…
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So I don’t think I could ever picture God, within my mind, reconciling with his old foe.
What? But Satan(Shaitan, Iblis, you name it) was (maybe still is?) God(dess)’s lover! But If I ever did, oh what a compromise I could only imagine it would be.
Compromise? What an Orgasm! Hmm…
Indeed. Love, Papa John John E."Papa John" Mayer Magick*Musick*Mayhem If it don’t hurt a little bit, it ain’t rock & roll!
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So I don’t think I could ever picture God, within my mind, reconciling with his old foe. But If I ever did, oh what a compromise I could only imagine it would be. Hmm…
A picture I hold in my mind (one possibility of the many pictures that might be) is God has his part to play in the events of mankind’s existence, also satan has his part to perform in this drama. Both are looking for the same result. Kinda like the "good cop, bad cop" scenario played out when police officers need information from a suspect in their investigations. Even though each officer approaches the situation differently, their mutual interest is in solving the crime. Charles
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ## Circles are actually spheres, originating in the grimoiric ## concepts of sigilizing protective geometric and theomantic ## diagrams and words onto the floor of the working space. ## That’s as may be but Wiccans frequently talk about ‘cones of ## power’. # of course, that is created WITHIN the Circle during the rite. ## The trouble with a sphere is that either it pokes through the ## ground (or floor if you’re unfortunate) or if you step away ## from the centre your feet end up beneath it. # the inscribed circle is the circumference or equator of the # spherical Cirlce. what’s the problem with having the sphere # poke through the ground? it is part of the ‘grounding and # centering’. # Is it? It strikes me as a strange thing to do: to say that # this piece of underground earth is within the circle but # that this other piece is not… the sphere is a movable envelope which retains connection with that which we love and admire: Terra. it is not ‘this piece or the other’ that is within the Circle, but anything that they allow in as a support for the rite. ## The cone is a little bit more straightforward: its base is ## on the ground but it also has an upper limit. # cone-shape excludes the tall people from the rite if they # are too far from the center. at least their heads. : # Not if the cone is very steep… maybe a conic frustum or a # cylinder would work. Once around the circle to cast the lower # edge, once for the upper. no, that doesn’t focus and concentrate the energy. the idea is that the cone has not only a focal point but also a DIRECTION (toward the point of origin). # it is for containing the power of the energy, thus its name. # OK, but I stand by my observation that Wiccans are not really all # that concerned with the ‘circle’s’ precise vertical geometry. of course, the Circle is a fluctuating energy-envelope which exists for some as a means of containing (and protecting unintended influence on those OUTSIDE) the energies supposed to be raised and sent to have a magical impact. it should be noted that many Wiccans never think about this, and don’t bother to construct astral metaphysics to underlay their ritual preferences. I naturally do so and have therefore come to adopt the most cordial paradigm which explains what is commonly presumed in the Wiccan community. that is, I didn’t learn this stuff from Wiccans, I made it up to explain what was happening in Wiccan rites. # Perhaps Wiccans generally visualise a 3D form but I doubt it # matters if they don’t all visualise the same one. correct, it doesn’t matter at all. the point is the focus and, for some in terms of the Circle, the protection. ## That said I don’t think Wiccans are all that concerned with the ## vertical geometry as long as it’s circular (i.e. has circular ## symmetry around a vertical axis). # yeh I’ve noticed that the circular geometry is very important # to Wiccans, I think because of Gardner’s predilections for # Solomonic magic. # Well that’s certainly a leap. Circles are very very common for # all kinds of sacred things in lots of cultures. is it such a leap? I don’t know where else they got the idea that a circle was such a hot vever. Gardner apparently got the idea from grimoires and appears to have disposed of the triangle which was sometimes used to contain summoned adversarial spirits. it was the spiritual technology of the day, complete with specific recipes and directories for contacting the ‘other worlds’.
Okay, okay… geez, i KNEW when i crossposted this query from alt.lucky.w (folk magic) into some other newsgroups i’d get plenty of answers…but…sheesh! Just to put in two cents from assorted folkloric traditions — circles of protection, cones of power, et al do not often appear in folk magic. The need for protection is not heavy because summoning of demons/angels is not that common in the branches of folk magic i have studied except among African-Americans influenced by European ceremonial magic grimoires — and frankly, such practitioners are no longer engaged in folk magic, being instead African Americans pursuing a course of study in ceremonial magic. The notion of circle-drawing seems to derive from ancient Middle Eastern magick, integrated into Jewish and Islamic traditions, and thence carried into Europe and expressed in Christian Grimoires. In researching the history of Jewish folk magic, i came across Marvin Lowenthal’s "A Wolrd Passed By" which contains illustrations and translations of pre-diaspora Jewish-Babylonian bowls used to obtain divorces from demons. The bowls are shallow and circular in form; within are inscibed decrees of divorcement adjuring assorted named demons to quit a locality or a person’s home. So there is evidence of some use of the circle in the Jewish-Babylonian folk-magic that preceded and gave rise to so-called Solomonic ceremonial magic and thence to wicca. But the magician in this case did not stand inside the circle. [re: the increased perceived need for circles of "protection" in an urban envornmoent versus a rural one} # Not that I'm entirely unsympathetic, the city sure is full of crap. # I guess the best solution is to run off to the woods and find that # magical little grove. 'cept that more and more and more people doing it more and more, and also ripping off the grove's branches and the earth's crystals tends to debilitate the wild.
Well said, little lorax! I sometimes wonder if there's a single intact cave of amyethyst crystals left in Brazil -- they all seem to have been torn from the earth in chinks and shipped to Northern California for the delectation of wholesaome, healing pagans. catherine yronwode Lucky Mojo Curio Co: http://www.luckymojo.com/luckymojocatalogue.html The Lucky W Amulet Archive: http://www.luckymojo.com/luckyw.html Sacred Sex: http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredsex.html The Sacred Landscape: http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredland.html Freemasonry for Women: http://www.luckymojo.com/comasonry.html Comics Warehouse: http://www.luckymojo.com/comicswarehouse.html
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I think this is a facinating thread but have a problem with the notion of agricultural societys below... - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - # Protection of oneself from the outside world, whether it's the # mundane world or the spirit world, has _everything_ to do with # city things. quite possible. the city may inspire paranoia and demon-fear. this leads to dualism and the attempt to squash what is feared, typically the wild. I think the dualist thing has agricultural origins. In order to cultivate food, you have to take a piece of land, clear away everything that's on it, enclose it and defend it. The difference between 'crops' and 'weeds', as well as good and bad animals and people becomes a matter of survival.
I have trouble seeing where you draw this conclusion from. Early on, people didn't know mena and women needed to copulate to produce babies - it just kinda happened. They were gatherers. Then they thought the moon played a part. They were hunter gatherers Then agrarian peoples who may or maynot have also been nomadic moved onto the scene. They had a set of religious beliefs based on duality that they had observed in nature. Then they figured out men and women had to come together but still thought there was a mystical element. They were horticulturalists. Now, before we get to the agricultural society you talk about with plots of land and protecting it, we have already moved into a society where the possibility of looking at life in a dualistic way has evolved from natural observation. Horticulturalists were not agriculturalists in the way we know them and so the whole plot of land thing comes way after the idea of dualism was already well established in certain cultures. At least, that's wht I understood from my university days which are, admittedly, blury now... What I think the city does do is encourage excessive abstraction of experience. Actual religious grace gives way to complicated symbol systems that represent it... for instance, I suspect that any religious idea called 'Logos' has to be an urban notion.
since urban and logos are Greek (again, fuzzy university memory... too much beer I suspect), I'd say ya...*winks May the whispers of the Goddess be the wind at your back, Judith http://www.newmoon.uk.com NEW MOON LAUNCHES NEW SITE DESIGN MARCH 1st! ONLINE SHOPPING TO BE ADDED APRIL 2nd!
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49990222 IIIom # The use of the circle as protection is an old tradition among # ceremonial magicians as well as witches. this is because the witches (esp. Wiccans) got their riteforms from ceremonial mages.
As I said before. Wicca started as a Chapter of the O.T.O. I agree with the nagasiva.
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Love the tag-line. please send The Cat in the Hat my regards. sy
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# Protection of oneself from the outside world, whether it's the # mundane world or the spirit world, has _everything_ to do with # city things. quite possible. the city may inspire paranoia and demon-fear. this leads to dualism and the attempt to squash what is feared, typically the wild.
I think the dualist thing has agricultural origins. In order to cultivate food, you have to take a piece of land, clear away everything that's on it, enclose it and defend it. The difference between 'crops' and 'weeds', as well as good and bad animals and people becomes a matter of survival. Agriculturalist fear of the wild is not irrational. If wild animals eat your crops you'll starve. It's only when those attitudes are carried into the city that they lose their meaning. What I think the city does do is encourage excessive abstraction of experience. Actual religious grace gives way to complicated symbol systems that represent it... for instance, I suspect that any religious idea called 'Logos' has to be an urban notion. -- Ashley Yakeley, Seattle WA
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The notion of circle-drawing seems to derive from ancient Middle Eastern magick,
The origins of magickal circles, as far back as traceable, came from the Indian use of yantras. Before that is anyone's guess. The Arabs brought it back from India, and from there it made its way into European traditions. integrated into Jewish and Islamic traditions, and thence carried into Europe and expressed in Christian Grimoires.
The Europeans got it first; European Jewish cabalist-magicians picked it up from there. At the time, there weren't many Jews (and no qabalists) left in the Middle East at all. There were some in places like Yemen and a few in Baghdad, but for the most part the Jewish diaspora had carried the bulk of the surviving Israelite population into Spain and Eastern Europe. Tzimon Yliaster Tools of CHAOS http://www.xiqual.com PO Box 26362, San Francisco, CA 94126
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But can I get a double scoop of chocolate fudge ripple in that cone of power...? That's as may be but Wiccans frequently talk about 'cones of power'. Phhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhht *rolls eyes back* Ahhhhhhh that's it
May the whispers of the Goddess be the wind at your back, Judith NEW MOON LAUNCHES NEW SITE DESIGN MARCH 1st! ONLINE SHOPPING TO BE ADDED APRIL 2nd! http://www.newmoon.uk.com
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49990222 IIIom ## Circles are actually spheres, originating in the grimoiric concepts ## of sigilizing protective geometric and theomantic diagrams and words ## onto the floor of the working space. ## That's as may be but Wiccans frequently talk about 'cones of power'. # of course, that is created WITHIN the Circle during the rite. ## The trouble with a sphere is that either it pokes through the ## ground (or floor if you're unfortunate) or if you step away ## from the centre your feet end up beneath it. # the inscribed circle is the circumference or equator of the # spherical Cirlce. what's the problem with having the sphere # poke through the ground? it is part of the 'grounding and # centering'. # Is it? It strikes me as a strange thing to do: to say that # this piece of underground earth is within the circle but # that this other piece is not... the sphere is a movable envelope which retains connection with that which we love and admire: Terra. it is not 'this piece or the other' that is within the Circle, but anything that they allow in as a support for the rite. ## The cone is a little bit more straightforward: its base is ## on the ground but it also has an upper limit. # cone-shape excludes the tall people from the rite if they # are too far from the center. at least their heads. : # Not if the cone is very steep... maybe a conic frustum or a # cylinder would work. Once around the circle to cast the lower # edge, once for the upper. no, that doesn't focus and concentrate the energy. the idea is that the cone has not only a focal point but also a DIRECTION (toward the point of origin). # it is for containing the power of the energy, thus its name. # OK, but I stand by my observation that Wiccans are not really all # that concerned with the 'circle's' precise vertical geometry. of course, the Circle is a fluctuating energy-envelope which exists for some as a means of containing (and protecting unintended influence on those OUTSIDE) the energies supposed to be raised and sent to have a magical impact. it should be noted that many Wiccans never think about this, and don't bother to construct astral metaphysics to underlay their ritual preferences. I naturally do so and have therefore come to adopt the most cordial paradigm which explains what is commonly presumed in the Wiccan community. that is, I didn't learn this stuff from Wiccans, I made it up to explain what was happening in Wiccan rites. # Perhaps Wiccans generally visualise a 3D form but I doubt it # matters if they don't all visualise the same one. correct, it doesn't matter at all. the point is the focus and, for some in terms of the Circle, the protection. ## That said I don't think Wiccans are all that concerned with the ## vertical geometry as long as it's circular (i.e. has circular ## symmetry around a vertical axis). # yeh I've noticed that the circular geometry is very important # to Wiccans, I think because of Gardner's predilections for # Solomonic magic. # Well that's certainly a leap. Circles are very very common for # all kinds of sacred things in lots of cultures. is it such a leap? I don't know where else they got the idea that a circle was such a hot vever. Gardner apparently got the idea from grimoires and appears to have disposed of the triangle which was sometimes used to contain summoned adversarial spirits. it was the spiritual technology of the day, complete with specific recipes and directories for contacting the 'other worlds'. ## Presumably that means the bad stuff that they're protecting ## themselves from is more likely to come from horizontally ## around them, rather than above or below them. # # eh? no, the Circle needn't always be for protection. the ones # who wanted to be hip told me it was like a cauldron, not a shield. # Ah, to contain the power so the pressure can build up, or something. that's it, yes. # But still I detect a sense in which the power needs to be kept in # at the sides in particular, or else it will be compromised by # contact with the nasty profane rest-of-the-world stuff outside. that's one way to see it, yes, and some Wiccans do see it this way. I admit that I didn't like it when I heard stuff like that, so I set about finding alternatives and either heard or created whatever I liked later. # Not that I'm entirely unsympathetic, the city sure is full of crap. # I guess the best solution is to run off to the woods and find that # magical little grove. 'cept that more and more and more people doing it more and more, and also ripping off the grove's branches and the earth's crystals tends to debilitate the wild. you ignore the possibility that they are PROTECTING the outside world from potentially mislaid spellwork. ## ...religion should be concerned with building direct 'sacred' ## relationships to the outside world. Cutting it off doesn't seem ## like a very good start. # # consider the term "profane" and its historical significance. the # term 'sacred' itself is used to indicate a separate experience. # Well that's a shame. I tend to use the word to refer to religious # relationships with the world. sometimes one cannot build such relationships with the whole world at once, so we construct microcosmic areas where this relation can easily be seen and nurtured. taking on the love of all is a big job and very few can regard the entirety of existence as sacred in the manner you are describing. # mystical experiences tend to begin with 'cutting off' intentions. # That's generally an urban phenomenon, is it? quite possible. # and anyway it's a cutting off from the annoying distracting stuff # but a reconnection to the world in a broader sense. Or so I believe. I think it is a reorientation. the world in a broader sense INCLUDES the annoying distracting stuff. I'd compare it to cleaning the filter in the dryer before going on to do more loads of laundry. # The Bambuti of the Ituri rainforest, who obtain their food by # foraging and hunting, are an example of religious activity that # embraces culture and nature without drawing a line between # (my reading of Colin Turnbull's account _The Forest People_).... sounds great. if that division already exists, then I think that religion and mysticism become more important. just telling people 'go be like that' doesn't usually work, I find. lorax666 -- emailed replies may be posted; cc me replies if you want a response
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49990221 B Baker IIIom Happy Elementary Day! Celebrating Deduction! # Circles are actually spheres, originating in the grimoiric concepts # of sigilizing protective geometric and theomantic diagrams and words # onto the floor of the working space. # That's as may be but Wiccans frequently talk about 'cones of power'. of course, that is created WITHIN the Circle during the rite.
Oh. Yeah. # The trouble with a sphere is that either it pokes through the # ground (or floor if you're unfortunate) or if you step away # from the centre your feet end up beneath it. the inscribed circle is the circumference or equator of the spherical Cirlce. what's the problem with having the sphere poke through the ground? it is part of the 'grounding and centering'.
Is it? It strikes me as a strange thing to do: to say that this piece of underground earth is within the circle but that this other piece is not... # The cone is a little bit more straightforward: its base is # on the ground but it also has an upper limit. cone-shape excludes the tall people from the rite if they are too far from the center. at least their heads. :
Not if the cone is very steep... maybe a conic frustum or a cylinder would work. Once around the circle to cast the lower edge, once for the upper. naw, it is for containing the power of the energy, thus its name.
OK, but I stand by my observation that Wiccans are not really all that concerned with the 'circle's' precise vertical geometry. Perhaps Wiccans generally visualise a 3D form but I doubt it matters if they don't all visualise the same one. # That said I don't think Wiccans are all that concerned with the # vertical geometry as long as it's circular (i.e. has circular # symmetry around a vertical axis). yeh I've noticed that the circular geometry is very important to Wiccans, I think because of Gardner's predilections for Solomonic magic.
Well that's certainly a leap. Circles are very very common for all kinds of sacred things in lots of cultures. # Presumably that means the bad stuff that they're protecting # themselves from is more likely to come from horizontally # around them, rather than above or below them. eh? no, the Circle needn't always be for protection. the ones who wanted to be hip told me it was like a cauldron, not a shield.
Ah, to contain the power so the pressure can build up, or something. But still I detect a sense in which the power needs to be kept in at the sides in particular, or else it will be compromised by contact with the nasty profane rest-of-the-world stuff outside. Not that I'm entirely unsympathetic, the city sure is full of crap. I guess the best solution is to run off to the woods and find that magical little grove. 'sides, the Cone of Power is aptly named. it is the focal beam of coalesced energy sent out the top of the sphere ('Circle') toward the intended target (or into the Circle if the target is also inside the Circle). this is how I was taught it in Wicca 101, or at least how I interpreted my instruction. :
I'll have to take your word for it. I'm far more interested in religion than magic anyway, so I tend to only look at the religious aspects of magic. # ...religion should be concerned with building direct 'sacred' # relationships to the outside world. Cutting it off doesn't seem # like a very good start. consider the term "profane" and its historical significance. the term 'sacred' itself is used to indicate a separate experience.
Well that's a shame. I tend to use the word to refer to religious relationships with the world. mystical experiences tend to begin with 'cutting off' intentions.
That's generally an urban phenomenon, and anyway it's a cutting off from the annoying distracting stuff but a reconnection to the world in a broader sense. Or so I believe. The Bambuti of the Ituri rainforest, who obtain their food by foraging and hunting, are an example of religious activity that embraces culture and nature without drawing a line between (my reading of Colin Turnbull's account _The Forest People_). A very interesting study of the religious lives of a wide range of societies compared to their interaction with the habitat is _Ecstasy, Religion and Alternate Reality_, by Felicitas Goodman. -- Ashley Yakeley, Seattle WA
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49990222 IIIom # The use of the circle as protection is an old tradition among # ceremonial magicians as well as witches. this is because the witches (esp. Wiccans) got their riteforms from ceremonial mages. # Protection of oneself from the outside world, whether it's the # mundane world or the spirit world, has _everything_ to do with # city things. quite possible. the city may inspire paranoia and demon-fear. this leads to dualism and the attempt to squash what is feared, typically the wild. what urban dwellers may need to learn is how to summon and find room for their demons, perhaps returning to some semblance of humanity. # It has to do with some of the things that are summoned when # one uses power. # You're a damn fool if you use a circle to protect yourself from # 'things summoned'. really? that is apparently a very common perception of the purpose of the magical circle. cf. texts like the Lesser Key of Solomon. # As part of the material world you carry the sacred light: if # you manifest it openly and without fear or shame, all 'evil' # spirits must turn away or be transformed. To the pure, all # things are pure. I agree, because they have integrated all elements of the world into themselves and have become kindred to the known cosmos. the 'evil' doesn't turn away, it ceases to exist (being but a figment at the start, or opposed in compassion by the pure). blessed beast! nagasiva -- http://www.abyss.com/tokus; http://www.luckymojo.com/mojocatSPELLS.html
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49990221 B Baker IIIom Happy Elementary Day! Celebrating Deduction! ## ...Wiccans and neo-pagans who work off of Celtic and Germanic ## traditions know a lot more about [circle-casting] than i do; # Circles are actually spheres, originating in the grimoiric concepts # of sigilizing protective geometric and theomantic diagrams and words # onto the floor of the working space. # That’s as may be but Wiccans frequently talk about ‘cones of power’. of course, that is created WITHIN the Circle during the rite. # The trouble with a sphere is that either it pokes through the # ground (or floor if you’re unfortunate) or if you step away # from the centre your feet end up beneath it. the inscribed circle is the circumference or equator of the spherical Cirlce. what’s the problem with having the sphere poke through the ground? it is part of the ‘grounding and centering’. # The cone is a little bit more straightforward: its base is # on the ground but it also has an upper limit. cone-shape excludes the tall people from the rite if they are too far from the center. at least their heads. : naw, it is for containing the power of the energy, thus its name. # That said I don’t think Wiccans are all that concerned with the # vertical geometry as long as it’s circular (i.e. has circular # symmetry around a vertical axis). yeh I’ve noticed that the circular geometry is very important to Wiccans, I think because of Gardner’s predilections for Solomonic magic. # Presumably that means the bad stuff that they’re protecting # themselves from is more likely to come from horizontally # around them, rather than above or below them. eh? no, the Circle needn’t always be for protection. the ones who wanted to be hip told me it was like a cauldron, not a shield. ’sides, the Cone of Power is aptly named. it is the focal beam of coalesced energy sent out the top of the sphere (‘Circle’) toward the intended target (or into the Circle if the target is also inside the Circle). this is how I was taught it in Wicca 101, or at least how I interpreted my instruction. : # sometimes in Wiccan rites they # are constructed materially, but usually just symbolically (that is, # astrally). Wiccans seem to like to use edged and/or pointed weapons # in rite to ’separate themselves from the ordinary waking world’ by # symbolically cutting themselves off from it so as to then engage # magic ‘between the worlds’. # …religion should be concerned with building direct ’sacred’ # relationships to the outside world. Cutting it off doesn’t seem # like a very good start. consider the term "profane" and its historical significance. the term ’sacred’ itself is used to indicate a separate experience. mystical experiences tend to begin with ‘cutting off’ intentions. blessed beast! lorax666 — http://www.abyss.com/tokus; http://www.luckymojo.com/mojocatSPELLS.html
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That’s as may be but Wiccans frequently talk about ‘cones of power’.
Phhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhht *rolls eyes back* Ahhhhhhh that’s it
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writes: Wiccans seem to like to use edged and/or pointed weapons in rite to ’separate themselves from the ordinary waking world’ by symbolically cutting themselves off from it so as to then engage magic ‘between the worlds’.
It does make a nice blue shadowy line in the air. http:\members.tripod.comstar_lady_2index.html
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As the circle is symbol/metaphor, I wouldn’t think it matters whether it is "actually" a sphere, cylinder, cone or circle. What matters is that you see it as a protection.
And there are many types of protection. I have this song I use which contain the words above me, below me and all around me. It all depends on what I am doing as to what type protection I will use. There are some who believe one does not need to ask for protection. I have a hard time understanding why people know they need safeguards here in the mundane world, yet believe it is ok to enter into the world between the worlds without protection. I will say this much due to expierance, since I have started using protection, the atmosphere in my apartment is much better. http:\members.tripod.comstar_lady_2index.html
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Very suspicious in my view, though perhaps this is a matter of personal taste. To me, religion should be concerned with building direct ’sacred’ relationships to the outside world. Cutting it off doesn’t seem like a very good start. Indeed, it is a matter of personal practice. Gods and godesses are not friendly neighbors.
They are not neighbors at all. They are the world. … I think the protection thing is an essentially urban theme. Cities are very noisy places, both acoustically and semantically, and in particular city-dwellers come into contact with far more people day-to-day than they can possibly build relationships with or even find anything about. I believe this is all reflected in their (actually, mine too unfortunately) spiritual lives. The use of the circle as protection is an old tradition among ceremonial magicians as well as witches. It has nothing to do with city things.
Protection of oneself from the outside world, whether it’s the mundane world or the spirit world, has _everything_ to do with city things. It has to do with some of the things that are summoned when one uses power.
You’re a damn fool if you use a circle to protect yourself from ‘things summoned’. As part of the material world you carry the sacred light: if you manifest it openly and without fear or shame, all ‘evil’ spirits must turn away or be transformed. To the pure, all things are pure. I think that opening up gates gets one what got Ishtar when she left her jewels behind…
Ishtar, or Inanna, the ancient Sumerian goddess of the city of Uruk (among other things). — Ashley Yakeley, Seattle WA
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Circles are actually spheres,
Bzzt. Circle = circle, sphere = sphere, me = monkey. originating in the grimoiric concepts
As all good things should. of sigilizing protective geometric and theomantic diagrams and words onto the floor of the working space. sometimes in Wiccan rites they are constructed materially, but usually just symbolically (that is, astrally). Wiccans seem to like to use edged and/or pointed weapons in rite to ’separate themselves from the ordinary waking world’ by symbolically cutting themselves off from it so as to then engage magic ‘between the worlds’.
Unless they are gonna actually draw blood, i’ll call them wussy wiccans. whether this is done prior to or after some sort of purification process appears to be a variable, a few not bothering with this latter at all. some see the Circle as protection and some see it as a means of focussing the magical energies which are to be applied toward a specific end during the ritual itself.
Circles are destruction and death. They focus the mind. at the end of the rite many reverse the Circle-creation process, ‘deconstructing’ or ‘taking down’ the Circle. some actually like to ‘dissolve’ it, allow it to remain "open yet unbroken", forging a community-building tool and adding to the strength of individual working spaces.
I like to let the forces of nature break it themselves. Circles on the beach are cool. when you talk about something being ‘meant to be’ or not, does this not imply a belief in predestination? if so, where do you think that this aspect of hoodoo concepts comes from and are there some who dispute it who are within the conjure community?
They arise from me. I control all. I control this newsgroup but damned if I can find the buttons and levers yet hehehe
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Circles are actually spheres
What, always? I disagree. There are plenty of examples of circles drawn on the ground being a line of protection, not a wall or sphere. The shaman pissing a circle on the ground, or a moat around a castle, for example. As the circle is symbol/metaphor, I wouldn’t think it matters whether it is "actually" a sphere, cylinder, cone or circle. What matters is that you see it as a protection. — Ben H
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benedicthassell says… Circles are actually spheres What, always? I disagree.
Bucky Fuller might have said that all circles are actually simultaneously-concave-convex spherical tetrahedra. Hurts my brain. I’m fond of it. Best, –Gar
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49990218 IIIom # …Wiccans and neo-pagans who work off of Celtic and Germanic # traditions know a lot more about [circle-casting] than i do; # i am cross-posting your request (from alt.lucky.w, which deals # with folk-magic)…. Perhaps someone there will have a # concise set of axioms for you. Circles are actually spheres, originating in the grimoiric concepts of sigilizing protective geometric and theomantic diagrams and words onto the floor of the working space.
That’s as may be but Wiccans frequently talk about ‘cones of power’. The trouble with a sphere is that either it pokes through the ground (or floor if you’re unfortunate) or if you step away from the centre your feet end up beneath it. The cone is a little bit more straightforward: its base is on the ground but it also has an upper limit. That said I don’t think Wiccans are all that concerned with the vertical geometry as long as it’s circular (i.e. has circular symmetry around a vertical axis). Presumably that means the bad stuff that they’re protecting themselves from is more likely to come from horizontally around them, rather than above or below them. sometimes in Wiccan rites they are constructed materially, but usually just symbolically (that is, astrally). Wiccans seem to like to use edged and/or pointed weapons in rite to ’separate themselves from the ordinary waking world’ by symbolically cutting themselves off from it so as to then engage magic ‘between the worlds’.
Very suspicious in my view, though perhaps this is a matter of personal taste. To me, religion should be concerned with building direct ’sacred’ relationships to the outside world. Cutting it off doesn’t seem like a very good start. whether this is done prior to or after some sort of purification process appears to be a variable, a few not bothering with this latter at all. some see the Circle as protection and some see it as a means of focussing the magical energies which are to be applied toward a specific end during the ritual itself.
I think the protection thing is an essentially urban theme. Cities are very noisy places, both acoustically and semantically, and in particular city-dwellers come into contact with far more people day-to-day than they can possibly build relationships with or even find anything about. I believe this is all reflected in their (actually, mine too unfortunately) spiritual lives. … # Some conjure doctors have told their clients to work a spell once and # then "wait and watch" for three days; if during that time the client # sees a sign that the spell is working, that’s an indication to let # things be, for the results will come through. If the client see a sign # that the spell is NOT working (a counter-sign), they advise working the # spell again, but no more than three times total, because some thigns are # not meant to be. when you talk about something being ‘meant to be’ or not, does this not imply a belief in predestination?
I don’t see why. It may be phrased that way but it seems more likely to me to mean simply that some attempts to perform magic are not appropriate: either not likely to work or perhaps ‘against the tide’. — Ashley Yakeley, Seattle WA
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49990218 IIIom # …Wiccans and neo-pagans who work off of Celtic and Germanic # traditions know a lot more about [circle-casting] than i do; # i am cross-posting your request (from alt.lucky.w, which deals # with folk-magic)…. Perhaps someone there will have a # concise set of axioms for you. Circles are actually spheres, originating in the grimoiric concepts of sigilizing protective geometric and theomantic diagrams and words onto the floor of the working space. sometimes in Wiccan rites they are constructed materially, but usually just symbolically (that is, astrally). Wiccans seem to like to use edged and/or pointed weapons in rite to ’separate themselves from the ordinary waking world’ by symbolically cutting themselves off from it so as to then engage magic ‘between the worlds’. whether this is done prior to or after some sort of purification process appears to be a variable, a few not bothering with this latter at all. some see the Circle as protection and some see it as a means of focussing the magical energies which are to be applied toward a specific end during the ritual itself. at the end of the rite many reverse the Circle-creation process, ‘deconstructing’ or ‘taking down’ the Circle. some actually like to ‘dissolve’ it, allow it to remain "open yet unbroken", forging a community-building tool and adding to the strength of individual working spaces. # Some conjure doctors have told their clients to work a spell once and # then "wait and watch" for three days; if during that time the client # sees a sign that the spell is working, that’s an indication to let # things be, for the results will come through. If the client see a sign # that the spell is NOT working (a counter-sign), they advise working the # spell again, but no more than three times total, because some thigns are # not meant to be. when you talk about something being ‘meant to be’ or not, does this not imply a belief in predestination? if so, where do you think that this aspect of hoodoo concepts comes from and are there some who dispute it who are within the conjure community? nagasiva — http://www.luckymojo.com/mojocatSPELLS.html; http://www.abyss.com/tokus; cc replies to me.
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Cat, Can you post some generic circle-casting information for novices and dabblers who want to protect or purify themselves when trying spells and to prepare for them properly? …especially spells that can cause repercussions to the caster.
Casting protective circles is an element of European ceremonial magic that has found its way into the traditions of other cultures. Wiccans and neo-pagans who work off of Celtic and Germanic traditions know a lot more about this than i do; i am cross-posting your request (from alt.lucky.w, which deals with folk-magic) to a couple of more gewnerral magical and mystical newsgroups, namely alt.magick.tyagi, alt.magick, alt.religion.wicca, alt.witchcraft, and alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic. Perhaps someone there will have a concise set of axioms for you. Also, does it build strength to repeat a certain spell, and if so, how long should one wait to try it again?
Some conjure doctors have told their clients to work a spell once and then "wait and watch" for three days; if during that time the client sees a sign that the spell is working, that’s an indication to let things be, for the results will come through. If the client see a sign that the spell is NOT working (a counter-sign), they advise working the spell again, but no more than three times total, because some thigns are not meant to be. Now, as to what constitutes a "sign" — well, let me give a few examples. Say you are trying to get a man named John to love you. You work a red candle and lodestone spell like the one at http://www.luckymojo.com/lovespells.html#LODESTONEATTRACT and then wait and watch for three days. On the third day, a friend tells you that John was mentioning you the other night and he said he thinks you’re cute. Well, obviously, that’s a sign that the spell is working; do nothing further and it will come through for you. There can be other, subtler signs, too. For instance, maybe you go to church and the preacher takes as his text "The Gospel of John" and he mentions that this is the most "mystical and deep of the gospels; the one that strikes closest to the heart." That’s a good sign. However, if during the three days, you meet up with John and he is cold, or if you read a novel and to your surprise the villain is named John, or if in church the preacher suddenly calls out, "Many Christians have trouble with the Revelations of John because this book is not like the other books in the New Testament — and in fact, some preachers will tell you (and here he turns right toward you as he speaks), "Don’t read John at all!"…well, those are counter-signs; you can wok the spell again, but success, if it comes, will not be easy, and it may not last long. Anyway, that’s what i was told. Your mileage may vary. And what, in your view, is the determination as to whether a spell works or not, especially one that does interfere with another’s free will?
If you get what you want, the spell has worked. But you may not want what you get. In some cases, especially love spells involving female domination, like the ones at http://www.luckymojo.com/femaledomination.html or spells for reconciliation after a break-up, such as the one at http://www.luckymojo.com/lovespells.html#RECONCILIATION the desired person can be brought under your control, but they may be an unsuitable mate and not worth your time in the long run. Folks weak enough to have their will entirely sapped by a spell of domination are not always the best mates for strong-willed magicians. Better would be a pairing between two powerful people who each voluntarily agree to give over to one other some of their own dominating energy, in the interest of service to love. catherine yronwode Lucky Mojo Curio Co: http://www.luckymojo.com/luckymojocatalogue.html The Lucky W Amulet Archive: http://www.luckymojo.com/luckyw.html Sacred Sex: http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredsex.html The Sacred Landscape: http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredland.html Freemasonry for Women: http://www.luckymojo.com/comasonry.html Comics Warehouse: http://www.luckymojo.com/comicswarehouse.html
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Question:
peace & justice events Seattle area starting Feb 27, 1998 [snip] CONTINUE, to phone the President 202-456-1111 to urge NO MILITARY ACTION against Iraq; End the Economic Sanctions killing thousands each month right now! the crisis is not over
Oh, but you’d rather have Saddam killing innocents everywhere? Saddam attacked Kuwait and Iran this decade. He admitted and was caught with biological and chemical weapons. He refuses to hold up to his end of the treaty, allowing us to verify that he isn’t producing biological weapons. You’d rather let him decimate millions of innocent children than keep sanctions on Iraq? BTW, the sanctions aren’t hurting the people in Iraq – Saddam’s priorities are. They are allowed to sell oil for food/medicine/etc., but seem to be funnelling the money into arms instead. Your logic is twisted. FEBRUARY is BLACK HISTORY Month
Odd, considering that 20 years ago we -used- to celebrate Abe Lincoln’s birthday in February with a national holiday. Now it isn’t even acknowledged. BTW, is there a "white history month"? You say every month is? Okay, quick, name the THIRD President of the U.S. **THROUGH END OF JUNE, Signature Drive for Initiative 688 to RAISE THE MINIMUM WAGE, volunteers needed, info 206-256- 6391
Yes, let’s put more low-income folk out-of-work. If we want to destroy the Republicans, we have to raise unemployment so we can raise resentment at the "rich" (i.e. anybody with a job), and this is our best bet. Vote for 688 to help the U.S. continue to move towards a better, more striated socialist system! [snip] **FRI FEB 27, 4 p.m., Prayer Vigil at Federal Building, 2nd and Madison, downtown, 5:15 procession to St. James Cathedral, 9th & Marion; 6 p.m., outdoor prayer at St. James; 6:20 procession to Plymouth Congregational Church, 6th & University; 7 p.m. prayer service at Plymouth, for an end to the deadly SANCTIONS AGAINST IRAQ and against Military Attacks on Iraq, info Puget Sound Faith and
Is there a prayer session to ask God to replace Saddam with a sensitive, caring human, or do you truly believe that you should let bullies rape whoever they want to? FRI FEB 27, 6 p.m., Mountaineers Building, 300 Third Ave W, Washington Coaliton to ABOLISH THE DEATH PENALTY 1998 Abolition Day Dinner and silent auction, keynote speaker Todd Maybrown, a successful appelate attorney who has worked on death row appeals; this year’s Abolitionist Award will fo to Teresa Mathis, National Chair of Murder Victims’ Families for Reconciliation, and Executive Director of Washington Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, info http://www.scn.org/activism/weadp call Judy Blinder 206-784- 0849 to donate auction items
Will they donate proceeds to supporting keeping convicts in jail for life, and for the restitution to victims of repeat offenders? Funny how they only worry about the rights of raping bullies again, isn’t it? **SAT FEB 28, noon, Federal Building, 2nd & Marion, downtown, for a march to Westlake Park and Rally, Demonstration against SANCTIONS AGAINST IRAQ, and against continued U.S. military presence in the Persian Gulf, organized by the National Emergency Coalition to Stop the War Against Iraq, sponsored by several groups, International Socialist Organization, CISPES, National Action Center, Student Action Network, Freedom Socialist Party, Workers World Party, Radical Women, Palestine Panel Project of Lesbian Work Group, Socialist Action , University Zapatista Liberation Network, Peace Action of Washington, info Jim McMahon 206-325-0085 or 206-325-8813 or 206-292-8809
Ohh, LESBIANS and radical women for Saddam! Seems to me that Iraq is largely Muslim – do these bozos know what HAPPENS to their type in Muslim countries? Talk about clueless! I’ll stop with the Iraq stuff now; it (protesting for Iraq) seems to be a cause more for anti-Americans than for people who actually think about their causes. MARCH 1, International DEATH PENALTY ABOLITION Day, the anniversary of Michigan becoming the first English Speaking territory in the world to abolish the death penalty, in 1847
Who declared this day? I’m betting it wasn’t Iraq. **SUN MARCH 1, 5 p.m., Channel 29, interviews from last year’s INTERNATIONAL WOMEN’S DAY celebration at Seattle Center
… when most of the male supporters of the other causes in this briefing dress up AS women, and march down from Cap Hill to the Seattle Center. Just like any other day. **MON MARCH 2, 6:30 p.m., CAMP, 722 18th near Cherry, special meeting of coalition working against Initiative 200, Washington State ANTI-AFFIRMATIVE ACTION Initiative, info Kathleen or Patrick 206-292-5715
The "Peace and Justice" calendar is coming down on the side of institutionalized racism? Oddly, neither the official description, nor the bill for I200 mentions Affirmative Action; it just bans racism. Funny how a group that favors the release of murderers and rapists and the protection of Saddam’s ability to make biological weapons also supports official-and-mandated racial bias. Flip side: Some of the events aren’t so far off-base. The vigils in favor of peace (except where they are protesting the caging of a rabid dictator) and the gatherings over jail beatings, multicultural training, etc., are things people should pay attention to. However, half of the events listed in this calendar are not only pre-biased, but are not one bit short of vehement anti-American propaganda.
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peace & justice events Seattle area starting Feb 27, 1998 Additions or corrections to Jean Buskin at 206-860-9649 or versions can be found on Seattle Community Network (telnet scn.org or dial 206-386-4199); on Usenet groups seattle.general and alt.activism; & World Wide Web http://www.scn.org/activism/PJ-cal.txt Events new or changed since Feb 15 version are marked with (*), since Feb 20 version with (**) Ongoing Events are at the end of the calendar; changes in events may occur, confirmation of events is advised; calendar may be passed on freely CONTINUE, to phone the President 202-456-1111 to urge NO MILITARY ACTION against Iraq; End the Economic Sanctions killing thousands each month right now! the crisis is not over IF U.S. BOMBS IRAQ, Emergency Plans, 2 locations: Red Square on the UW campus / Federal Building, 2nd Ave between Madison and Marion, downtown; if announced midnight to noon, meet at 4 / 5 p.m.; if announced noon to midnight, meet at 11 a.m. / noon following day FEBRUARY is BLACK HISTORY Month **THROUGH END OF JUNE, Signature Drive for Initiative 688 to RAISE THE MINIMUM WAGE, volunteers needed, info 206-256- 6391 THROUGH Washington State LEGISLATIVE SESSION, ends early March, let your Representatives and Senators know you want justice, Legislative Hotline 1-800-562-6000, info on issues and bills Children’s Alliance web site with frequent updates and direct links to legislators http://www.childrensalliance.org THROUGH END OF MARCH, opportunity for an organization with 10 – 20 interested people to participate in a free INTERNATIONAL AND MULTI-CULTURAL Training session, to assist in testing a newly designed training seminar; the seminar focuses on increasing people’s cross-cultural skills as well as providing insight into global business practices and strategies for working in a multi-cultural workplace. The workshop is centered around a dynamic cross-cultural THROUGH APRIL 4, 50 years since Mahatma Ganhdi died to 30 years since Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., died, celebrate A SEASON FOR NONVIOLENCE by Taking Steps for Peace, various events including a March 28 Walk for Peace led by Arun adn Sunanda Gandhi, info 206-524-8816 of http://www.GandhiKing.com FEB 27 – MARCH 1, Bangor PA, conference "KINGIAN NONVIOLENCE and the Struggle for Justice and Peace" led by Dorothy Cotton and Richard deats, $230, info 610-588-1793 **FRI FEB 27, noon, City Club, Washington Athletic Club, 3rd Floor, Martha Choe will be debating John Carlson on I- 200, the ANTI-AFFIRMATIVE ACTION Initiative; Glen Pascall will begin with an overview and Susan Hutchison will moderate, $27 includes lunch, RSVP 206-682-7395 **FRI FEB 27, 4 p.m., Prayer Vigil at Federal Building, 2nd and Madison, downtown, 5:15 procession to St. James Cathedral, 9th & Marion; 6 p.m., outdoor prayer at St. James; 6:20 procession to Plymouth Congregational Church, 6th & University; 7 p.m. prayer service at Plymouth, for an end to the deadly SANCTIONS AGAINST IRAQ and against Military Attacks on Iraq, info Puget Sound Faith and FRI FEB 27, and subsequent last Fridays, 5:30 p.m., Westlake Park, downtown, 4th & Pine, CRITICAL MASS, an organized coincidence of bicyclists who ride around the streets of Seattle en masse. It happens when a lot of cyclists happen to be in the same place at the same time and decide to cycle the same way together for a while. Come join the fun! More info http://www.oz.net/~nic/cm.html FRI FEB 27, 6 p.m., Mountaineers Building, 300 Third Ave W, Washington Coaliton to ABOLISH THE DEATH PENALTY 1998 Abolition Day Dinner and silent auction, keynote speaker Todd Maybrown, a successful appelate attorney who has worked on death row appeals; this year’s Abolitionist Award will fo to Teresa Mathis, National Chair of Murder Victims’ Families for Reconciliation, and Executive Director of Washington Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, info http://www.scn.org/activism/weadp call Judy Blinder 206-784- 0849 to donate auction items FRI FEB 27, 7 – 9 p.m., Maryknoll Development House, 958 16th Ave E at Prospect, Closing the School of the Americas, the "SCHOOL OF ASSASSINS" where U.S. military and intelligence personnel trained numerous Latin Americans who became torturers, rapists, and murderers, info Shelia McShane 206-367-3567 FEB 28 – MARCH 3, University of Washington, 28th International Scholars Conference "The HOLOCAUST AND THE CHURCHES", $55 for all sessions, info 206-616-1659 SAT FEB 28, The Robinswood Tennis Center is hosting a MULTICULTURAL COMMUNITY TENNIS Forum sponsored by the United States Tennis Association; The Multicultural Participation Committee Forum’s goal is to involve more people in the USTA’s mission to expand the sport of tennis, The Forum will address issues and barriers to expansion of tennis among under-served populations and communities; also a free clinic 2:30 – 3:30 p.m.by Rodney Harmon, USTA Director of Multicultural Participation, with extensive tennis experience as a player and coach, to participate in the Forum call Fred Reed 360-459-2409; to participate in the Free Clinic call the Robinswood Tennis Center 425-425-7690 SAT FEB 28, International Socialist Organization Northwest Socialist Conference postponed until March 1, see below SAT FEB 28, 9 a.m. – noon, Seattle University, Casey Building, 5th floor, "Three Models for FAITH-BASED ENVIRONMENTAL Action", reservations Earth Ministry 206-632- 2426 SAT FEB 28, registration 9:30 a.m., session 10 a.m. – 5 p.m., Keystone Church, 5019 Kaystone Pl N, bus lines 16, 26; the Puget Sound Network for Compassionate Communication and A Season for Nonviolence present a NONVIOLENT COMMUNICATION Workshop for those familiar with the NVC Basics (see Feb 26 events above), presented by Marshall Rosenberg, Ph.D., International Peacemaker, Mediator, Teacher, preregistration encouraged, $90, $75 by Feb 14, bring lunch or food to share and seat cushion, partial scholarship requests by Feb 10 to Lisa Vuk 206-782-9570, info Janice Eng 206-706-1895 mailbox 2 of Lucy Leu 206-842-2304 mailbox star 2 or **SAT FEB 28, noon, Federal Building, 2nd & Marion, downtown, for a march to Westlake Park and Rally, Demonstration against SANCTIONS AGAINST IRAQ, and against continued U.S. military presence in the Persian Gulf, organized by the National Emergency Coalition to Stop the War Against Iraq, sponsored by several groups, International Socialist Organization, CISPES, National Action Center, Student Action Network, Freedom Socialist Party, Workers World Party, Radical Women, Palestine Panel Project of Lesbian Work Group, Socialist Action , University Zapatista Liberation Network, Peace Action of Washington, info Jim McMahon 206-325-0085 or 206-325-8813 or 206-292-8809 *SAT FEB 28, New York, noon, march from Times Square to the U.S. Mission to the United Nations, and San Francisco, 11 a.m., Dolores Park, National Emergency Coalition to Stop the War Against Iraq, info 212-633-6646 or **SAT FEB 28, 4 p.m., Gould Hall, room 322, University of Washington, International Socialist Organization will hold a public forum "HANDS OFF IRAQ: What’s At Stake in the Gulf," with Lee Sustar, ISO National Steering Committee, party following, info 206-292-8809 **SAT FEB 28, 8 p.m., 5140 Ballard NW, fundraising benefit for 911 Media Arts Center’s first annual IRISH FILM & VIDEO FESTIVAL, to cover expenses like film print costs, courier charges from Ireland to Seattle & flights for visiting filmmakers, $5 donation, live music from Conor and de boys from ‘Suffering Gaels’, plus craic galore! info 206-682-1141 or http://www.911media.org/events/irishreels/ SAT FEB 28, and subsequent 4th Saturdays, 9 p.m. – 1 a.m., Mecca International, corner of 23rd & Union in the midtown center, CARIBBEAN NIGHT, a community building family event, starts with dance workshop, no smoking, no alcohol; all ages welcome; Music includes salsa, reggae, rumba, calypso, soca, merengue, and guaguaco; Puerto Rican food for sale MARCH is WOMEN’S HISTORY Month MARCH 1, International DEATH PENALTY ABOLITION Day, the anniversary of Michigan becoming the first English Speaking territory in the world to abolish the death penalty, in 1847 SUN MARCH 1, registration 9:30 a.m., session 10 a.m. – 5 p.m., Ravenna Bryant Senior center, 2121 NE 68th at Ravenna Avenue, enter through parking lot but please park on street, near bus line 71,; the Puget Sound Network for Compassionate Communication and A Season for Nonviolence present a NONVIOLENT COMMUNICATION Workshop for those familiar with the NVC Basics (see Feb 26 events above), presented by Marshall Rosenberg, Ph.D., International Peacemaker, Mediator, Teacher, preregistration encouraged, $90, $75 by Feb 14, bring lunch or food to share and seat cushion, partial scholarship requests by Feb 10 to Lisa Vuk 206-782-9570, info Janice Eng 206-706-1895 mailbox 2 of Lucy **SUN MARCH 1, [note changed date] noon – 5 p.m., Gould Hall plus evening, Johnson Hall, room 101, University of Washington, International Socialist Organization sponsors the 3rd Annual Pacific NORTHWEST SOCIALIST CONFERENCE, with major topics Are We Headed for a Depression? What Is Socialism? and workshops on: Defending Affirmative Action, The Labor Movement after the UPS Strike, Will Women Always be Oppressed?, 1968: The Fire Last Time, speakers include Lee Sustar and Paul D’Amato of ISO National in Chicago, … read more »
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Manhattan Magick–An Urban Celebration of Earth Spirituality WHEN: May 10th, 1pm-11pm WHERE: The Angel Orensanz Foundation Center for the Arts 172 Norfolk Street, NYC TICKETS: $10 in advance, $15 at the door. On the eve of Mother’s Day celebrate the heartbeat of Mother Earth at this all day festival highlighting the music, arts and crafts of those who follow Earth honoring spiritual paths. Enjoy performances by some of the Northeast’s best-loved Pagan musicians. Currently scheduled to appear are Rhythm Alive!, Judith Zweiman, Sarah Stockwell, Isaac Bonewits and Real Magic, Four Winds Earth Chorus and Stevie "Windchild" Craig. All proceeds from this event benefit three NYC area organizations which share a commitment to education, networking and community building for local Pagans: New Moon NY, Four Winds Earth Chorus and the Pagan Community Center at 14th St. Video Haven. For further information and tickets call the Pagan Community Center at 14th Street Video Haven (212) 475-4223.
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HO! Sister Carla speaks well… I can’t believe the negative
Hi.I will agree with that.The spirit is alive and strong as ever. No one can kill that spirit that is Rainbow.Its presents is passed in to many areas of our lives.The enviremental movement,The intrest in so called new age beliefs(based on the goddess and earth mother) I can only hope that people who read these posts proclaiming the death of the rainbow tribe understand that the cyncicisism of a few does not reflect the true fealings of the many.Each of us has taken a part of this tribe and made it our own,and each of us has shared it with others,with the ripples going further from the center and thus affecting more folks. If the conservatives could cause the death of a belife,then dont you think alot of other religious belifes would gone as well? You cant kill something that is a part of your heart. So keep the faith brothers and sisters.For we are alive as long as we want be.Let the child inside of you grow,never stop growing and relise that we all are conected in this world and the universe. I hope that every one has the rebirth of the new year go well.a renewal of sorts.And may the Lady show you the magick that lives insie us all Blessed Be With Love and Peace Jesse Moontree
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Please check out my Consciousness & Community website. Carol Moore http://www.kreative.net/carolmoore Can we move from a world ruled by God and State to a world alive with Consciousness and Community? Can we experience the one consciousness underlying the many faiths and create the free, self-governing communities that will replace violently unified nation states? Contents include: CONSCIOUSNESS ARTICLES AND LINKS New paradigm science, reincarnation, chakras, meditation, self-actualization, etc., including: Consciousness & Community Brief outline of Carol Moore’s spiritual-political work-in-progress, plus information about the author. COMMUNITY ARTICLES AND LINKS Liberty, decentralism, community, constitutional alternatives, secession, etc., including: The Davidian Massacre complete text of Carol Moore’s mass market paperback, plus updates, photos, and links detail government’s destruction of a community. Non-Violent Secessionist Strategies Sunspot Cycles and Activist Strategy Y2K Community Building NON-VIOLENT ACTION STRATEGIES Effective strategies for popular support and links to most useful action sites, including: Non-Violence and Decentralization Collection of M.K. Gandhi quotes 198 Methods of Nonviolent Action PHOTO PAGES Numerous pages of photographs of rallies and conferences for peace and disarmament, impeachment, drug legalization, liberty, prisoners rights,etc., as well as photographic evidence of crimes against civilians at Waco. NEWS Relevant events, demonstrations, updates, conferences, alternate news sources, etc. FUN LINKS Because in the beginning was the urge to have a good time. . . ORDER COOL STUFF Books, buttons and bumperstickers. This page is offered to all freedom-loving, open-minded people of good will, whatever ideological, religious, ethnic, racial, lifestyle or other labels they may apply to themselves. We are all souls, spirits, conscious beings seeking truth. And in one way or another we are all students of consciousness. Hopefully, those of very different beliefs may find some spiritual and political insights here–as well as a basis for action upon a minimal set of political principles. If you have questions, comments or
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An HTML list of Libertarian Organizations, partially based on a previous version of this same list that Paul just posted, is available on the Web at: http://www.daft.com/~rab/liberty/lib-orgs.html It is regularly kept current, although I can’t promise that it will necessarily have any organizations added that Paul may have added to his list. Bob Bickford A Liberty Library
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Reposting article removed by rogue canceller. See news.admin.net-abuse.announce for further information. Archive-name: libertarian/organizations Version: 3.1.1 Last-modified: 11 July 1996 Fed up with left/right labels? Try the World’s Smallest Political Quiz. http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html LIBERTARIAN ORIENTED ORGANIZATIONS Compiled by Advocates for Self-Government, 1995 ACTON INSTITUTE 161 Ottawa NW, Suite 301 Grand Rapids, MI 49503 Promotes a contemporary understanding of the classical liberal philosophy which is the product of the religious traditions of the West. Publishes books, policy papers, newsletters, and conducts conferences and seminars. (Father Sirico) 616-454-3080. URL: http://www.acton.org/ ADAM SMITH INSTITUTE 3 Great Smith Street London SW1P3BL, England Educational and research institute. Publishes studies on privatization and deregulation, and suggests free market policy applications. 0114471-222-4995 ADVOCATES FOR SELF-GOVERNMENT 1202 N. Tennessee St., Suite 202 Cartersville, GA 30120 Supports local libertarian outreach with Seminar 1 and Operation Politically Homeless; publishes Liberator and World’s Smallest Political Quiz. Teaches libertarian communication skills. Catalog of audio tapes, video, books & more. (Sharon Harris) 770-386-8372 FAX: 770-386-8373 URL: http://www.self-gov.org/ ATLAS ECONOMIC RESEARCH FOUNDATION 4084 University Drive, Suite 103 Fairfax, VA 22030-6813 Expounds principle that economic actions have economic consequences; helps set up new free market think tanks; publishes Highlights & Atlas Report. (Alex Chafuen) 703-934-6969 URL: http://www.his.com/~atlas/ AUDIO FORUM 96 Broad Street, Room E609 Guilford, CT 06437 Sells audio tapes of lectures given by intellectuals, authors, and scientists. Includes libertarians and nonlibertarians. (Nancy Grant) 800-243-1234 AYN RAND INSTITUTE 4640 Admiralty Way #715 Marina Del Ray, CA 90292 Promotes objectivist philosophy of Ayn Rand through campus clubs at universities around the world. Runs essay contest for high school students based on Ayn Rand’s novels. 310-306-9232 URL: http://www.aynrand.org/ari.html CATO INSTITUTE 1000 Massachusetts Ave, NW Washington, DC 20001-5403 Public policy research foundation; publishes books, monographs, policy analysis & CATO Journal, all from a market liberal perspective; sponsors acclaimed week-long summer seminar at Dartmouth. (Edward H. Crane) 202-842-0200. URL: http://www.cat.org/ CENTER FOR LIBERTARIAN STUDIES PO Box 4091 Burlingame, CA 94011 Holds conferences, seminars & symposia for "scholarly business people." Publishes Journal of Libertarian Studies. (Burton Blumert) 800-325-7257 CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF MARKET ALTERNATIVES PO Box 15749 Boise, ID 83715 Conducts free market seminars for teachers and the general public, and debate seminars for high schools. Publishes CSMA Newsletter. (Barbara Sall) 208-376-6801 CENTER FOR MARKET PROCESSES George Mason University Fairfax, VA 22030 A nonprofit educational institution located at George Mason University. Research deals with market based management, and other market based approaches to economic problems. Publishes Praxis and Market Process. (Jerry Ellig) 703-993-1142 URL: http://web.gmu.edu/departments/cmp/ CITIZENS FOR A SOUND ECONOMY 1250 H Street NW, Suite 700 Washington, DC 20005 Free-market public-interest advocacy organization; lobbies for free-market legislation (e.g. Individual Retirement Accounts, free trade, privatization & deregulation). (Paul Beckner) 202-783-3870 COMMONWEALTH FOUNDATION 3544 No Progress Ave, Suite 101 Harrisburg, PA 17110 Non-partisan public policy research organization. Seeks to generate policy change based on the principles of private initiative and renewed citizenship. Publishes books and newsletter. 717-671-1901, FAX: 717-671-1905 COMPETITIVE ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE 1001 Connecticut Ave, NW, Suite 1250 Washington, DC 20036 Explores free-market solutions to environmental problems, antitrust reform & trade; sponsors Jefferson Group pro-market information exchange forum. (Fred Smith) 202-331-1010 URL: http://www.cei.org/ DRUG POLICY FOUNDATION 4455 Connecticut Ave NW, #B500 Washington DC 20008-2332 Organization which argues for reform and repeal of drug laws and prohibition on moral, economic and constitutional grounds. Publishes Drug Policy Letter. (Cheryl Epps) 202-537-5005 FEDERALIST SOCIETY 1700 K Street NW, Suite 901 Washington DC 20006 Organization of conservative and libertarian lawyers and law students which seeks to analyze and influence public policy based on constitutionalism. Chapters in law schools across the country. 202-822-8138 FOUNDATION FOR ECONOMIC EDUCATION 30 S Broadway Irvington-on-Hudson, NY 10533 Original libertarian educational foundation, est. 1947. Publishes Freeman magazine, books; conducts week-long summer seminars; provides material for high school & college debaters. (Hans Sennholz) 914-591-7230 URL: http://www.kaiwan.com/~aos/fee/feehome.html FOUNDATION FOR RESEARCH ON ECONOMICS AND THE ENVIRONMENT 502 South 19th #1 Bozeman, MT 59715 Promotes public policy reform supporting conservation & wise use of natural resources based on property rights, reliance on market processes. (John Baden) 406-585-1776, 206-548-1776 FRASER INSTITUTE 626 Bute Street, 2nd Floor Vancouver, BC Canada V6E3M1 Public policy research institute w/free-market orientation; publishes books & studies on economic effects of government policy. Center for the Study of Economics & Religion division promotes dialogue between ecclesiastics and economists. 604-688-0221 URL: http://www.fraserinstitute.ca FREE MARKET FOUNDATION OF SOUTHERN AFRICA PO Box 52713, Saxonwold South Africa 2173 Promotes privatization, deregulation & the free market; publishes books & studies; sponsors conferences. (Leon Louw) 642-4407 FREE PRESS ASSOCIATION PO Box 63 Port Hadlock, WA 98339 Nonprofit journalism group which focuses on First Amendment issues. Gives Mencken Award for outstanding libertarian journalism. 206-385-5097 FREEDOM SCHOOL 4415 W Pacific Coast Hwy Newport Beach, CA 92663 Teaches Bob LeFevere’s dynamic Freedom School; excellent follow-up to CATO, IHS, or FEE seminars. Conferences in various locations. (Kevin Cullinane) 714-458-1776 FREEDOM PARTY OF ONTARIO Box 2214 Station A London, Ontario, Canada N6A4E3 Publishes the Calendar of Individual Freedom (US & Canadian versions available). Also publishes newsletters and issue papers, and fields candidates for public office. 519-681-3999 FULLY INFORMED JURY ASSOCIATION PO Box 59 Helmville, MT 59843 Promotes legislation requiring that juries be informed of their right to consider both law and fact in reaching verdicts. Publishes FIJA Activist. (Don Doig) 406-793-5550 URL: http://www.fija.org/~fija/ FUTURE OF FREEDOM FOUNDATION 11350 Random Hills Rd #800 Fairfax, VA 22030-6044 Defends free markets, private property, free trade, freedom of conscience & civil liberties. Produces audio tapes on history, economics, philosophy & principles of liberty; publishes Freedom Daily. (Jacob G. Hornberger) 703-934-6101 URL: http://www.fff.org/freedom/info/fff.html HEARTLAND INSTITUTE 800 East Northwest Hwy, Suite 1080 Palatine, IL 60067 Provides privatization and deregulation studies and conferences aimed at Midwest news editors, news directors and legislative aides. (Joseph Bast) 708-202-3060 URL: http://www.heartland.org/ INDEPENDENCE INSTITUTE 14142 Denver West Pkwy #185 Golden, CO 80401 Colorado’s public policy center. Endeavors to build consensus on the truths of the Declaration of Independence and explores their applicability to political and economic issues at the state level. (Tom Tancredo) 303-279-6536 INDEPENDENT INSTITUTE 134 98th Ave Oakland, CA 94603 Public policy institute. Sponsors nonpolitical studies into critical public issues; publishes books & the Independent; conducts conferences. (Carl Close) 510-632-1366 INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS FOUNDATION, CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF POPULAR CULTURE 9911 West Pico Blvd, #1290 Los Angeles, CA 90035 "Right wing" civil liberties group which fights political correctness on college campuses. A public service law firm dedicated to protecting the Bill of Rights. 310-843-3699 INSTITUTE FOR HUMANE STUDIES 4084 University Drive #101 Fairfax, VA 22030-6812 Searches for the best moral argument for a free society, and discovers, encourages and supports scholars who articulate that argument. (David Nott) 703-934-6920 URL: http://osf1.gmu.edu/~ihs/ INSTITUTE FOR JUSTICE 1001 Pennsylvania Ave NW, Suite 200 South Washington, DC 20004-2505 Uses strategic litigation, training and outreach to secure greater protection for individual liberty and to challenge the scope of government. Publishes Liberty & Law. 202-457-4240 URL: http://www.vix.com/objectivism/ij.html INSTITUTE FOR OBJECTIVIST STUDIES 82 Washington St, Suite 207 Poughkeepsie, NY 12601 Sponsors seminars & lectures to advance Objectivism as basis for theoretical knowledge, social progress & individual happiness. Supports research & publishes the IOS Journal. (David Kelley) 914-471-6100 URL:
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Summary: This posting contains a list of libertarian oriented organizations. Reposting article removed by rogue canceller. See news.admin.net-abuse.announce for further information. Archive-name: libertarian/organizations Version: 3.1.1 Last-modified: 11 July 1996 Fed up with left/right labels? Try the World’s Smallest Political Quiz. http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html LIBERTARIAN ORIENTED ORGANIZATIONS Compiled by Advocates for Self-Government, 1995 ACTON INSTITUTE 161 Ottawa NW, Suite 301 Grand Rapids, MI 49503 Promotes a contemporary understanding of the classical liberal philosophy which is the product of the religious traditions of the West. Publishes books, policy papers, newsletters, and conducts conferences and seminars. (Father Sirico) 616-454-3080. URL: http://www.acton.org/ ADAM SMITH INSTITUTE 3 Great Smith Street London SW1P3BL, England Educational and research institute. Publishes studies on privatization and deregulation, and suggests free market policy applications. 0114471-222-4995 ADVOCATES FOR SELF-GOVERNMENT 1202 N. Tennessee St., Suite 202 Cartersville, GA 30120 Supports local libertarian outreach with Seminar 1 and Operation Politically Homeless; publishes Liberator and World’s Smallest Political Quiz. Teaches libertarian communication skills. Catalog of audio tapes, video, books & more. (Sharon Harris) 770-386-8372 FAX: 770-386-8373 URL: http://www.self-gov.org/ ATLAS ECONOMIC RESEARCH FOUNDATION 4084 University Drive, Suite 103 Fairfax, VA 22030-6813 Expounds principle that economic actions have economic consequences; helps set up new free market think tanks; publishes Highlights & Atlas Report. (Alex Chafuen) 703-934-6969 URL: http://www.his.com/~atlas/ AUDIO FORUM 96 Broad Street, Room E609 Guilford, CT 06437 Sells audio tapes of lectures given by intellectuals, authors, and scientists. Includes libertarians and nonlibertarians. (Nancy Grant) 800-243-1234 AYN RAND INSTITUTE 4640 Admiralty Way #715 Marina Del Ray, CA 90292 Promotes objectivist philosophy of Ayn Rand through campus clubs at universities around the world. Runs essay contest for high school students based on Ayn Rand’s novels. 310-306-9232 URL: http://www.aynrand.org/ari.html CATO INSTITUTE 1000 Massachusetts Ave, NW Washington, DC 20001-5403 Public policy research foundation; publishes books, monographs, policy analysis & CATO Journal, all from a market liberal perspective; sponsors acclaimed week-long summer seminar at Dartmouth. (Edward H. Crane) 202-842-0200. URL: http://www.cat.org/ CENTER FOR LIBERTARIAN STUDIES PO Box 4091 Burlingame, CA 94011 Holds conferences, seminars & symposia for "scholarly business people." Publishes Journal of Libertarian Studies. (Burton Blumert) 800-325-7257 CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF MARKET ALTERNATIVES PO Box 15749 Boise, ID 83715 Conducts free market seminars for teachers and the general public, and debate seminars for high schools. Publishes CSMA Newsletter. (Barbara Sall) 208-376-6801 CENTER FOR MARKET PROCESSES George Mason University Fairfax, VA 22030 A nonprofit educational institution located at George Mason University. Research deals with market based management, and other market based approaches to economic problems. Publishes Praxis and Market Process. (Jerry Ellig) 703-993-1142 URL: http://web.gmu.edu/departments/cmp/ CITIZENS FOR A SOUND ECONOMY 1250 H Street NW, Suite 700 Washington, DC 20005 Free-market public-interest advocacy organization; lobbies for free-market legislation (e.g. Individual Retirement Accounts, free trade, privatization & deregulation). (Paul Beckner) 202-783-3870 COMMONWEALTH FOUNDATION 3544 No Progress Ave, Suite 101 Harrisburg, PA 17110 Non-partisan public policy research organization. Seeks to generate policy change based on the principles of private initiative and renewed citizenship. Publishes books and newsletter. 717-671-1901, FAX: 717-671-1905 COMPETITIVE ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE 1001 Connecticut Ave, NW, Suite 1250 Washington, DC 20036 Explores free-market solutions to environmental problems, antitrust reform & trade; sponsors Jefferson Group pro-market information exchange forum. (Fred Smith) 202-331-1010 URL: http://www.cei.org/ DRUG POLICY FOUNDATION 4455 Connecticut Ave NW, #B500 Washington DC 20008-2332 Organization which argues for reform and repeal of drug laws and prohibition on moral, economic and constitutional grounds. Publishes Drug Policy Letter. (Cheryl Epps) 202-537-5005 FEDERALIST SOCIETY 1700 K Street NW, Suite 901 Washington DC 20006 Organization of conservative and libertarian lawyers and law students which seeks to analyze and influence public policy based on constitutionalism. Chapters in law schools across the country. 202-822-8138 FOUNDATION FOR ECONOMIC EDUCATION 30 S Broadway Irvington-on-Hudson, NY 10533 Original libertarian educational foundation, est. 1947. Publishes Freeman magazine, books; conducts week-long summer seminars; provides material for high school & college debaters. (Hans Sennholz) 914-591-7230 URL: http://www.kaiwan.com/~aos/fee/feehome.html FOUNDATION FOR RESEARCH ON ECONOMICS AND THE ENVIRONMENT 502 South 19th #1 Bozeman, MT 59715 Promotes public policy reform supporting conservation & wise use of natural resources based on property rights, reliance on market processes. (John Baden) 406-585-1776, 206-548-1776 FRASER INSTITUTE 626 Bute Street, 2nd Floor Vancouver, BC Canada V6E3M1 Public policy research institute w/free-market orientation; publishes books & studies on economic effects of government policy. Center for the Study of Economics & Religion division promotes dialogue between ecclesiastics and economists. 604-688-0221 URL: http://www.fraserinstitute.ca FREE MARKET FOUNDATION OF SOUTHERN AFRICA PO Box 52713, Saxonwold South Africa 2173 Promotes privatization, deregulation & the free market; publishes books & studies; sponsors conferences. (Leon Louw) 642-4407 FREE PRESS ASSOCIATION PO Box 63 Port Hadlock, WA 98339 Nonprofit journalism group which focuses on First Amendment issues. Gives Mencken Award for outstanding libertarian journalism. 206-385-5097 FREEDOM SCHOOL 4415 W Pacific Coast Hwy Newport Beach, CA 92663 Teaches Bob LeFevere’s dynamic Freedom School; excellent follow-up to CATO, IHS, or FEE seminars. Conferences in various locations. (Kevin Cullinane) 714-458-1776 FREEDOM PARTY OF ONTARIO Box 2214 Station A London, Ontario, Canada N6A4E3 Publishes the Calendar of Individual Freedom (US & Canadian versions available). Also publishes newsletters and issue papers, and fields candidates for public office. 519-681-3999 FULLY INFORMED JURY ASSOCIATION PO Box 59 Helmville, MT 59843 Promotes legislation requiring that juries be informed of their right to consider both law and fact in reaching verdicts. Publishes FIJA Activist. (Don Doig) 406-793-5550 URL: http://www.fija.org/~fija/ FUTURE OF FREEDOM FOUNDATION 11350 Random Hills Rd #800 Fairfax, VA 22030-6044 Defends free markets, private property, free trade, freedom of conscience & civil liberties. Produces audio tapes on history, economics, philosophy & principles of liberty; publishes Freedom Daily. (Jacob G. Hornberger) 703-934-6101 URL: http://www.fff.org/freedom/info/fff.html HEARTLAND INSTITUTE 800 East Northwest Hwy, Suite 1080 Palatine, IL 60067 Provides privatization and deregulation studies and conferences aimed at Midwest news editors, news directors and legislative aides. (Joseph Bast) 708-202-3060 URL: http://www.heartland.org/ INDEPENDENCE INSTITUTE 14142 Denver West Pkwy #185 Golden, CO 80401 Colorado’s public policy center. Endeavors to build consensus on the truths of the Declaration of Independence and explores their applicability to political and economic issues at the state level. (Tom Tancredo) 303-279-6536 INDEPENDENT INSTITUTE 134 98th Ave Oakland, CA 94603 Public policy institute. Sponsors nonpolitical studies into critical public issues; publishes books & the Independent; conducts conferences. (Carl Close) 510-632-1366 INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS FOUNDATION, CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF POPULAR CULTURE 9911 West Pico Blvd, #1290 Los Angeles, CA 90035 "Right wing" civil liberties group which fights political correctness on college campuses. A public service law firm dedicated to protecting the Bill of Rights. 310-843-3699 INSTITUTE FOR HUMANE STUDIES 4084 University Drive #101 Fairfax, VA 22030-6812 Searches for the best moral argument for a free society, and discovers, encourages and supports scholars who articulate that argument. (David Nott) 703-934-6920 URL: http://osf1.gmu.edu/~ihs/ INSTITUTE FOR JUSTICE 1001 Pennsylvania Ave NW, Suite 200 South Washington, DC 20004-2505 Uses strategic litigation, training and outreach to secure greater protection for individual liberty and to challenge the scope of government. Publishes Liberty & Law. 202-457-4240 URL: http://www.vix.com/objectivism/ij.html INSTITUTE FOR OBJECTIVIST STUDIES 82 Washington St, Suite 207 Poughkeepsie, NY 12601 Sponsors seminars & lectures to advance Objectivism as basis for theoretical knowledge, social progress & individual happiness. Supports research & publishes the
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Summary: This posting contains a list of libertarian oriented organizations. Archive-name: libertarian/organizations Version: 3.1.1 Last-modified: 11 July 1996 Fed up with left/right labels? Try the World’s Smallest Political Quiz. http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html LIBERTARIAN ORIENTED ORGANIZATIONS Compiled by Advocates for Self-Government, 1995 ACTON INSTITUTE 161 Ottawa NW, Suite 301 Grand Rapids, MI 49503 Promotes a contemporary understanding of the classical liberal philosophy which is the product of the religious traditions of the West. Publishes books, policy papers, newsletters, and conducts conferences and seminars. (Father Sirico) 616-454-3080. URL: http://www.acton.org/ ADAM SMITH INSTITUTE 3 Great Smith Street London SW1P3BL, England Educational and research institute. Publishes studies on privatization and deregulation, and suggests free market policy applications. 0114471-222-4995 ADVOCATES FOR SELF-GOVERNMENT 1202 N. Tennessee St., Suite 202 Cartersville, GA 30120 Supports local libertarian outreach with Seminar 1 and Operation Politically Homeless; publishes Liberator and World’s Smallest Political Quiz. Teaches libertarian communication skills. Catalog of audio tapes, video, books & more. (Sharon Harris) 770-386-8372 FAX: 770-386-8373 URL: http://www.self-gov.org/ ATLAS ECONOMIC RESEARCH FOUNDATION 4084 University Drive, Suite 103 Fairfax, VA 22030-6813 Expounds principle that economic actions have economic consequences; helps set up new free market think tanks; publishes Highlights & Atlas Report. (Alex Chafuen) 703-934-6969 URL: http://www.his.com/~atlas/ AUDIO FORUM 96 Broad Street, Room E609 Guilford, CT 06437 Sells audio tapes of lectures given by intellectuals, authors, and scientists. Includes libertarians and nonlibertarians. (Nancy Grant) 800-243-1234 AYN RAND INSTITUTE 4640 Admiralty Way #715 Marina Del Ray, CA 90292 Promotes objectivist philosophy of Ayn Rand through campus clubs at universities around the world. Runs essay contest for high school students based on Ayn Rand’s novels. 310-306-9232 URL: http://www.aynrand.org/ari.html CATO INSTITUTE 1000 Massachusetts Ave, NW Washington, DC 20001-5403 Public policy research foundation; publishes books, monographs, policy analysis & CATO Journal, all from a market liberal perspective; sponsors acclaimed week-long summer seminar at Dartmouth. (Edward H. Crane) 202-842-0200. URL: http://www.cat.org/ CENTER FOR LIBERTARIAN STUDIES PO Box 4091 Burlingame, CA 94011 Holds conferences, seminars & symposia for "scholarly business people." Publishes Journal of Libertarian Studies. (Burton Blumert) 800-325-7257 CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF MARKET ALTERNATIVES PO Box 15749 Boise, ID 83715 Conducts free market seminars for teachers and the general public, and debate seminars for high schools. Publishes CSMA Newsletter. (Barbara Sall) 208-376-6801 CENTER FOR MARKET PROCESSES George Mason University Fairfax, VA 22030 A nonprofit educational institution located at George Mason University. Research deals with market based management, and other market based approaches to economic problems. Publishes Praxis and Market Process. (Jerry Ellig) 703-993-1142 URL: http://web.gmu.edu/departments/cmp/ CITIZENS FOR A SOUND ECONOMY 1250 H Street NW, Suite 700 Washington, DC 20005 Free-market public-interest advocacy organization; lobbies for free-market legislation (e.g. Individual Retirement Accounts, free trade, privatization & deregulation). (Paul Beckner) 202-783-3870 COMMONWEALTH FOUNDATION 3544 No Progress Ave, Suite 101 Harrisburg, PA 17110 Non-partisan public policy research organization. Seeks to generate policy change based on the principles of private initiative and renewed citizenship. Publishes books and newsletter. 717-671-1901, FAX: 717-671-1905 COMPETITIVE ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE 1001 Connecticut Ave, NW, Suite 1250 Washington, DC 20036 Explores free-market solutions to environmental problems, antitrust reform & trade; sponsors Jefferson Group pro-market information exchange forum. (Fred Smith) 202-331-1010 URL: http://www.cei.org/ DRUG POLICY FOUNDATION 4455 Connecticut Ave NW, #B500 Washington DC 20008-2332 Organization which argues for reform and repeal of drug laws and prohibition on moral, economic and constitutional grounds. Publishes Drug Policy Letter. (Cheryl Epps) 202-537-5005 FEDERALIST SOCIETY 1700 K Street NW, Suite 901 Washington DC 20006 Organization of conservative and libertarian lawyers and law students which seeks to analyze and influence public policy based on constitutionalism. Chapters in law schools across the country. 202-822-8138 FOUNDATION FOR ECONOMIC EDUCATION 30 S Broadway Irvington-on-Hudson, NY 10533 Original libertarian educational foundation, est. 1947. Publishes Freeman magazine, books; conducts week-long summer seminars; provides material for high school & college debaters. (Hans Sennholz) 914-591-7230 URL: http://www.kaiwan.com/~aos/fee/feehome.html FOUNDATION FOR RESEARCH ON ECONOMICS AND THE ENVIRONMENT 502 South 19th #1 Bozeman, MT 59715 Promotes public policy reform supporting conservation & wise use of natural resources based on property rights, reliance on market processes. (John Baden) 406-585-1776, 206-548-1776 FRASER INSTITUTE 626 Bute Street, 2nd Floor Vancouver, BC Canada V6E3M1 Public policy research institute w/free-market orientation; publishes books & studies on economic effects of government policy. Center for the Study of Economics & Religion division promotes dialogue between ecclesiastics and economists. 604-688-0221 URL: http://www.fraserinstitute.ca FREE MARKET FOUNDATION OF SOUTHERN AFRICA PO Box 52713, Saxonwold South Africa 2173 Promotes privatization, deregulation & the free market; publishes books & studies; sponsors conferences. (Leon Louw) 642-4407 FREE PRESS ASSOCIATION PO Box 63 Port Hadlock, WA 98339 Nonprofit journalism group which focuses on First Amendment issues. Gives Mencken Award for outstanding libertarian journalism. 206-385-5097 FREEDOM SCHOOL 4415 W Pacific Coast Hwy Newport Beach, CA 92663 Teaches Bob LeFevere’s dynamic Freedom School; excellent follow-up to CATO, IHS, or FEE seminars. Conferences in various locations. (Kevin Cullinane) 714-458-1776 FREEDOM PARTY OF ONTARIO Box 2214 Station A London, Ontario, Canada N6A4E3 Publishes the Calendar of Individual Freedom (US & Canadian versions available). Also publishes newsletters and issue papers, and fields candidates for public office. 519-681-3999 FULLY INFORMED JURY ASSOCIATION PO Box 59 Helmville, MT 59843 Promotes legislation requiring that juries be informed of their right to consider both law and fact in reaching verdicts. Publishes FIJA Activist. (Don Doig) 406-793-5550 URL: http://www.fija.org/~fija/ FUTURE OF FREEDOM FOUNDATION 11350 Random Hills Rd #800 Fairfax, VA 22030-6044 Defends free markets, private property, free trade, freedom of conscience & civil liberties. Produces audio tapes on history, economics, philosophy & principles of liberty; publishes Freedom Daily. (Jacob G. Hornberger) 703-934-6101 URL: http://www.fff.org/freedom/info/fff.html HEARTLAND INSTITUTE 800 East Northwest Hwy, Suite 1080 Palatine, IL 60067 Provides privatization and deregulation studies and conferences aimed at Midwest news editors, news directors and legislative aides. (Joseph Bast) 708-202-3060 URL: http://www.heartland.org/ INDEPENDENCE INSTITUTE 14142 Denver West Pkwy #185 Golden, CO 80401 Colorado’s public policy center. Endeavors to build consensus on the truths of the Declaration of Independence and explores their applicability to political and economic issues at the state level. (Tom Tancredo) 303-279-6536 INDEPENDENT INSTITUTE 134 98th Ave Oakland, CA 94603 Public policy institute. Sponsors nonpolitical studies into critical public issues; publishes books & the Independent; conducts conferences. (Carl Close) 510-632-1366 INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS FOUNDATION, CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF POPULAR CULTURE 9911 West Pico Blvd, #1290 Los Angeles, CA 90035 "Right wing" civil liberties group which fights political correctness on college campuses. A public service law firm dedicated to protecting the Bill of Rights. 310-843-3699 INSTITUTE FOR HUMANE STUDIES 4084 University Drive #101 Fairfax, VA 22030-6812 Searches for the best moral argument for a free society, and discovers, encourages and supports scholars who articulate that argument. (David Nott) 703-934-6920 URL: http://osf1.gmu.edu/~ihs/ INSTITUTE FOR JUSTICE 1001 Pennsylvania Ave NW, Suite 200 South Washington, DC 20004-2505 Uses strategic litigation, training and outreach to secure greater protection for individual liberty and to challenge the scope of government. Publishes Liberty & Law. 202-457-4240 URL: http://www.vix.com/objectivism/ij.html INSTITUTE FOR OBJECTIVIST STUDIES 82 Washington St, Suite 207 Poughkeepsie, NY 12601 Sponsors seminars & lectures to advance Objectivism as basis for theoretical knowledge, social progress & individual happiness. Supports research & publishes the IOS Journal. (David Kelley) 914-471-6100 URL: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~diana/objectivism/ios/
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Archive-name: libertarian/organizations Version: 3.1.1 Last-modified: 11 July 1996 Fed up with left/right labels? Try the World’s Smallest Political Quiz. http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html LIBERTARIAN ORIENTED ORGANIZATIONS Compiled by Advocates for Self-Government, 1995 ACTON INSTITUTE 161 Ottawa NW, Suite 301 Grand Rapids, MI 49503 Promotes a contemporary understanding of the classical liberal philosophy which is the product of the religious traditions of the West. Publishes books, policy papers, newsletters, and conducts conferences and seminars. (Father Sirico) 616-454-3080. URL: http://www.acton.org/ ADAM SMITH INSTITUTE 3 Great Smith Street London SW1P3BL, England Educational and research institute. Publishes studies on privatization and deregulation, and suggests free market policy applications. 0114471-222-4995 ADVOCATES FOR SELF-GOVERNMENT 1202 N. Tennessee St., Suite 202 Cartersville, GA 30120 Supports local libertarian outreach with Seminar 1 and Operation Politically Homeless; publishes Liberator and World’s Smallest Political Quiz. Teaches libertarian communication skills. Catalog of audio tapes, video, books & more. (Sharon Harris) 770-386-8372 FAX: 770-386-8373 URL: http://www.self-gov.org/ ATLAS ECONOMIC RESEARCH FOUNDATION 4084 University Drive, Suite 103 Fairfax, VA 22030-6813 Expounds principle that economic actions have economic consequences; helps set up new free market think tanks; publishes Highlights & Atlas Report. (Alex Chafuen) 703-934-6969 URL: http://www.his.com/~atlas/ AUDIO FORUM 96 Broad Street, Room E609 Guilford, CT 06437 Sells audio tapes of lectures given by intellectuals, authors, and scientists. Includes libertarians and nonlibertarians. (Nancy Grant) 800-243-1234 AYN RAND INSTITUTE 4640 Admiralty Way #715 Marina Del Ray, CA 90292 Promotes objectivist philosophy of Ayn Rand through campus clubs at universities around the world. Runs essay contest for high school students based on Ayn Rand’s novels. 310-306-9232 URL: http://www.aynrand.org/ari.html CATO INSTITUTE 1000 Massachusetts Ave, NW Washington, DC 20001-5403 Public policy research foundation; publishes books, monographs, policy analysis & CATO Journal, all from a market liberal perspective; sponsors acclaimed week-long summer seminar at Dartmouth. (Edward H. Crane) 202-842-0200. URL: http://www.cat.org/ CENTER FOR LIBERTARIAN STUDIES PO Box 4091 Burlingame, CA 94011 Holds conferences, seminars & symposia for "scholarly business people." Publishes Journal of Libertarian Studies. (Burton Blumert) 800-325-7257 CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF MARKET ALTERNATIVES PO Box 15749 Boise, ID 83715 Conducts free market seminars for teachers and the general public, and debate seminars for high schools. Publishes CSMA Newsletter. (Barbara Sall) 208-376-6801 CENTER FOR MARKET PROCESSES George Mason University Fairfax, VA 22030 A nonprofit educational institution located at George Mason University. Research deals with market based management, and other market based approaches to economic problems. Publishes Praxis and Market Process. (Jerry Ellig) 703-993-1142 URL: http://web.gmu.edu/departments/cmp/ CITIZENS FOR A SOUND ECONOMY 1250 H Street NW, Suite 700 Washington, DC 20005 Free-market public-interest advocacy organization; lobbies for free-market legislation (e.g. Individual Retirement Accounts, free trade, privatization & deregulation). (Paul Beckner) 202-783-3870 COMMONWEALTH FOUNDATION 3544 No Progress Ave, Suite 101 Harrisburg, PA 17110 Non-partisan public policy research organization. Seeks to generate policy change based on the principles of private initiative and renewed citizenship. Publishes books and newsletter. 717-671-1901, FAX: 717-671-1905 COMPETITIVE ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE 1001 Connecticut Ave, NW, Suite 1250 Washington, DC 20036 Explores free-market solutions to environmental problems, antitrust reform & trade; sponsors Jefferson Group pro-market information exchange forum. (Fred Smith) 202-331-1010 URL: http://www.cei.org/ DRUG POLICY FOUNDATION 4455 Connecticut Ave NW, #B500 Washington DC 20008-2332 Organization which argues for reform and repeal of drug laws and prohibition on moral, economic and constitutional grounds. Publishes Drug Policy Letter. (Cheryl Epps) 202-537-5005 FEDERALIST SOCIETY 1700 K Street NW, Suite 901 Washington DC 20006 Organization of conservative and libertarian lawyers and law students which seeks to analyze and influence public policy based on constitutionalism. Chapters in law schools across the country. 202-822-8138 FOUNDATION FOR ECONOMIC EDUCATION 30 S Broadway Irvington-on-Hudson, NY 10533 Original libertarian educational foundation, est. 1947. Publishes Freeman magazine, books; conducts week-long summer seminars; provides material for high school & college debaters. (Hans Sennholz) 914-591-7230 URL: http://www.kaiwan.com/~aos/fee/feehome.html FOUNDATION FOR RESEARCH ON ECONOMICS AND THE ENVIRONMENT 502 South 19th #1 Bozeman, MT 59715 Promotes public policy reform supporting conservation & wise use of natural resources based on property rights, reliance on market processes. (John Baden) 406-585-1776, 206-548-1776 FRASER INSTITUTE 626 Bute Street, 2nd Floor Vancouver, BC Canada V6E3M1 Public policy research institute w/free-market orientation; publishes books & studies on economic effects of government policy. Center for the Study of Economics & Religion division promotes dialogue between ecclesiastics and economists. 604-688-0221 URL: http://www.fraserinstitute.ca FREE MARKET FOUNDATION OF SOUTHERN AFRICA PO Box 52713, Saxonwold South Africa 2173 Promotes privatization, deregulation & the free market; publishes books & studies; sponsors conferences. (Leon Louw) 642-4407 FREE PRESS ASSOCIATION PO Box 63 Port Hadlock, WA 98339 Nonprofit journalism group which focuses on First Amendment issues. Gives Mencken Award for outstanding libertarian journalism. 206-385-5097 FREEDOM SCHOOL 4415 W Pacific Coast Hwy Newport Beach, CA 92663 Teaches Bob LeFevere’s dynamic Freedom School; excellent follow-up to CATO, IHS, or FEE seminars. Conferences in various locations. (Kevin Cullinane) 714-458-1776 FREEDOM PARTY OF ONTARIO Box 2214 Station A London, Ontario, Canada N6A4E3 Publishes the Calendar of Individual Freedom (US & Canadian versions available). Also publishes newsletters and issue papers, and fields candidates for public office. 519-681-3999 FULLY INFORMED JURY ASSOCIATION PO Box 59 Helmville, MT 59843 Promotes legislation requiring that juries be informed of their right to consider both law and fact in reaching verdicts. Publishes FIJA Activist. (Don Doig) 406-793-5550 URL: http://www.fija.org/~fija/ FUTURE OF FREEDOM FOUNDATION 11350 Random Hills Rd #800 Fairfax, VA 22030-6044 Defends free markets, private property, free trade, freedom of conscience & civil liberties. Produces audio tapes on history, economics, philosophy & principles of liberty; publishes Freedom Daily. (Jacob G. Hornberger) 703-934-6101 URL: http://www.fff.org/freedom/info/fff.html HEARTLAND INSTITUTE 800 East Northwest Hwy, Suite 1080 Palatine, IL 60067 Provides privatization and deregulation studies and conferences aimed at Midwest news editors, news directors and legislative aides. (Joseph Bast) 708-202-3060 URL: http://www.heartland.org/ INDEPENDENCE INSTITUTE 14142 Denver West Pkwy #185 Golden, CO 80401 Colorado’s public policy center. Endeavors to build consensus on the truths of the Declaration of Independence and explores their applicability to political and economic issues at the state level. (Tom Tancredo) 303-279-6536 INDEPENDENT INSTITUTE 134 98th Ave Oakland, CA 94603 Public policy institute. Sponsors nonpolitical studies into critical public issues; publishes books & the Independent; conducts conferences. (Carl Close) 510-632-1366 INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS FOUNDATION, CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF POPULAR CULTURE 9911 West Pico Blvd, #1290 Los Angeles, CA 90035 "Right wing" civil liberties group which fights political correctness on college campuses. A public service law firm dedicated to protecting the Bill of Rights. 310-843-3699 INSTITUTE FOR HUMANE STUDIES 4084 University Drive #101 Fairfax, VA 22030-6812 Searches for the best moral argument for a free society, and discovers, encourages and supports scholars who articulate that argument. (David Nott) 703-934-6920 URL: http://osf1.gmu.edu/~ihs/ INSTITUTE FOR JUSTICE 1001 Pennsylvania Ave NW, Suite 200 South Washington, DC 20004-2505 Uses strategic litigation, training and outreach to secure greater protection for individual liberty and to challenge the scope of government. Publishes Liberty & Law. 202-457-4240 URL: http://www.vix.com/objectivism/ij.html INSTITUTE FOR OBJECTIVIST STUDIES 82 Washington St, Suite 207 Poughkeepsie, NY 12601 Sponsors seminars & lectures to advance Objectivism as basis for theoretical knowledge, social progress & individual happiness. Supports research & publishes the IOS Journal. (David Kelley) 914-471-6100 URL: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~diana/objectivism/ios/ INSTITUTE OF ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 Lord North Street London SW1T3LB,
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<snippage from those who are on the board(s). I know Dave Miller was recently selected for the Board of Advisors, so I’ll try to ask him soon what his opinion is. I know he quit writing for them several years ago as he felt they were exploiting their authors by not compensating them enough. I don’t think non-staff Zymurgy contributors get paid.
Oh, come on, it’s a HOBBY RAG, it’s a magazine for the club members, and it’s FOR AND BY club members for the most part. Ergo, the lack of pay doesn’t astonish me at all. I have seen a whole lot of people b***hing about Zymurgy and the AHA lately. While I too wish they would run more technical stuff, I must point out that they always have a 20% newbie population who NEEDS newbie articles. It’s very arrogant to demand that they only match YOUR level. — Copyright alice!jj 1996, all rights reserved, except transmission by USENET and like facilities granted. This notice must be included. Any use by a provider charging in any way for the IP represented in and by this article and any inclusion in print or other media are specifically prohibited.
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Kinney Baughman writes a spirited defense of the AHA. Much of it (such as the claimed unavailability of information or materials 16 years ago) is open to debate, at least as to certain parts of the country where homebrewing has a longer history (heck, DeFalco’s in Houston has been in business since 1976), but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and concede that the AHA has done a lot to assist in the growth of homebrewing. Does this change my criticism of the AHA? No. It is still an organization with *very* large problems. Most troubling to me is the fact that these same problems have been complained about for years, and yet the AHA bureaucracy steadfastly resists any meaningful efforts to resolve them. To respond to a few of Kinney’s comments: Even if they weren’t non-profit, isn’t this America? Isn’t this the land where a person can have an idea, implement it and make a buck as long as the "market" allows?
I’d love to see the AHA tell the IRS that this is their philosophy. Non-profit status means just that: you *don’t* get to "make a buck," no matter how good your idea is or how noble you think your purpose is. Certainly, a non-profit organization can have paid employees if reasonably necessary to carry out its mission. But if the main goal of the organization is just to pay salaries (i.e., allowing some people to "make a buck"), then the AHA has no business being a non-profit organization. If it wants to be a for-profit group, fine; your logic becomes unassailable in that event. The point is that they have not. If you are concerned about this, that, or the other issue, write the AHA staff a letter or call them on the phone. They are as open and friendly as you could possibly want. They aren’t dictators bent on shoving their opinions and policies down our throats.
To call the AHA staff dictatorial is, of course, unfair and inaccurate. It is similiarly naive and inaccurate to ignore some of their egredious bureaucratic behavior. Recall the recent AHA attempt to take over the BJCP. Did this idea spring from the AHA membership, the BJCP membership, or the AHA’s "Advisors"? Nope. In closing, I must smile at some of the suggestions that all decisions made by the AHA should be voted upon by the membership.
What I and many others are suggesting is that the AHA behave like most other legitimate non-profits, and at least have an independent (preferably member-elected) Board of Directors with oversight authority. Louis K. Bonham
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: If you just paid the $$ to get a subscription to Zymurgy, then you’re : doing fine. : The problem is, there is a growing need for an organization that will : represent the best interests of the homebrewing community. The AHA is : not filling this role. Some people DO expect this, that’s where the : friction arises. Many perceive the AHA as nothing more than a (poorly : run) publishing company, which uses the profits from its publishing : and other ventures to support the pub-crawls of some of its officers. I don’t mean to keep following up to Kelly’s articles but I am concerned about all the negative publicity going on with the AOB and AHA lately. It’s easy to fling negative criticism at the flick of the keyboard but besides the current *technical* problems with the HBD, how has the AHA/AOB let us down and how have they not been representing the best interests of the homebrewing community? What in your mind *is* the best interests of the homebrewing community? Let me tell you what they have done: 16 years ago when this hobby was not much more than the flicker of an idea in Charlie’s mind, they started an organization to disseminate information about this newly rediscovered lost art of brewing. It *was* a lost art, BTW. I started brewing then and you couldn’t find anything about brewing beer except from some old English books that had all sorts of strange ingredients in them like treacle, licorice sticks, and saccharin. Wort chillers? Lauter tuns? What were those? You couldn’t find one if your life depended on it. The AHA started publishing a magazine, began holding a national conference, and disseminating information about how to start a homebrew club, how to publish a club newsletter, and if you had questions, you could write a letter to the editor which was the only feedback you could get before the dawning of the age of the Internet. They also started the GABF. As the commercial craft brewing market started catching on, they held a conference for that segment of the population and started publishing a magazine for them. Guess what happened? Within 3 or 4 years, enterprising homebrewers were starting brewpubs, fledgling microbreweries, and homebrew shops. I was one of them. As a result of these entities, the word of homebrewing began spreading to more and more people and many of those people began brewing and became involved in the craft brewing movement. The AHA was a constant source of support for me. They published my ads which brought me more business. They published my articles which helped get the word out on shortcuts I’d discovered and was eager to pass along to the community at large. They did the same for others. I humbly suggest that these services have served the best interests of the community. As we all tired of going to the Denver every year for the AHA conference, they responded by bringing the conference to different parts of the country. In effect, they brought it to us. That, too, was serving the best interests of the community. 15 years later, most towns have homebrew shops and brewpubs. We all have microbrews on our grocery store shelves. The public is imminently more aware of craft brewed beers than ever before. We have redisovered and reinstantiated a long lost art. *We* are all the better for it. Would this have happened without the AHA/AOB? Eventually, maybe. But it clearly wouldn’t have happened as quickly and effectively as it did with them. So I take serious issue with the charge the AHA/AOB is not serving the brewing community. Clearly they are. My question to those who are discontented with the AHA is what would you be doing if you were in charge? Would you being doing anything any differently? What kind of conference would you hold? What kind of magazine would you publish? Would you have even dreamed of doing a GABF? Or a microbrewers’ conference? Would you have commissioned the beer style book series? Published a _Microbrewers Resource Manual_? Helped lobby to make homebrewing legal in all 50 states? Are you moaning about a $33 subscription/membership fee? Do you know of any other specialty/cult organization that doesn’t charge at least that much for a magazine subscription and membership services? What would you charge? Would you do it for nothing? Hardly? Doesn’t the staff deserve to make a living? Or do we insist they work for nothing because they’re "nonprofit" as if that has anything to do with anything? They aren’t our slaves just because we fork over a measly $33 a year. Even if they weren’t non-profit, isn’t this America? Isn’t this the land where a person can have an idea, implement it and make a buck as long as the "market" allows? For those of you who haven’t tried, the brewing business is a tough business. The market is spread out and specialized. We’re lucky we have the AHA. They could have very easily folded 15 years ago when there weren’t enough of us to support the hobby. But they persevered. They believed. And we should be thankful. As I write in defense of the AHA, don’t think that I haven’t had my issues with them in the past. They published a most unflattering review of one of my products once upon a time. I’ve written articles gratis and felt like I should have gotten a complimentary pass to the national conference in return for speaking. Perhaps these policies have changed now. The point is, you can’t please all the people all the time and I, too, have not been pleased all the time. But that’s just the way life is, Folks! I’m just one puny little homebrewer among thousands. I can’t possibly expect my opinion to reflect the vast majority of homebrewers on every single issue. Neither should you. This thread started because a mail server has choked under the load created by the quantity of mail generated by the HBD! Why aren’t we rejoicing that homebrewing has become that popular? Instead, we have a band of discontents who want to boycott the very organization that helped homebrewing get to the point that a listserv would choke under the load. 16 years ago I would have given anything to talk to just one person about advanced homebrewing techniques. Now there are so many people to talk to, the HBD computer has been brought to its knees! My, my my. Aren’t we spoiled! If you don’t like the quality of the articles in Zymurgy, write better ones and submit them. They’ll be published. If you are concerned about this, that, or the other issue, write the AHA staff a letter or call them on the phone. They are as open and friendly as you could possibly want. They aren’t dictators bent on shoving their opinions and policies down our throats. In closing, I must smile at some of the suggestions that all decisions made by the AHA should be voted upon by the membership. Are you kidding? Can you imagine the bookkeeping nightmare that would be? All of your $33 membership fees would be spent in postage fees! Besides, have you ever worked on a committee before? The only thing worse than 1 person making all the decisions is having hundreds of people doing it! I feel the people at the top in the AHA are doing a darn good job considering the enormity of their job. I’m happy to support them because I wouldn’t have their job for the money they’re getting paid. It can’t be enough! Off the soapbox and back to work… | | Kinney Baughman | | / / | "Beer is my business and I’m late for work" |
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[Incidentally, if CP is reading, how about disclosing to the AHA/AOB members *exactly* how much of their annual dues go to you, in either salary or subsidies for your globetrotting lifestyle? If the AHA/AOB is really a nonprofit organization and not the scam it appears to be, you should have nothing to hide.]
We need someone in Boulder to go to the AOB and ask to see the Tax form 999 (or is it 990) and copy all the numbers dwon and then post them. This would be very helpful. Thye AOB has to let you see the from (but not photocopy it) by law Jim
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: We need someone in Boulder to go to the AOB and ask to see the Tax form : 999 (or is it 990) and copy all the numbers dwon and then post them. : This would be very helpful. Thye AOB has to let you see the from (but : not photocopy it) by law Any volunteers? I’d really like to see those numbers. -Alan — as this email account will not be valid as of Dec 20th, 1996 http://alpha.rollanet.org/~mckay/brew/tips/
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If I am totally off base here, please tell me why… I don’t have a problem with the AHA non-profit or for profit. I paid my dues, got a cool coaster and a sub to ZYMURGY. Was I promised more that I should be persuing? Pdoolittle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [Incidentally, if CP is reading, how about disclosing to the AHA/AOB members *exactly* how much of their annual dues go to you, in either salary or subsidies for your globetrotting lifestyle? If the AHA/AOB is really a nonprofit organization and not the scam it appears to be, you should have nothing to hide.] We need someone in Boulder to go to the AOB and ask to see the Tax form 999 (or is it 990) and copy all the numbers dwon and then post them. This would be very helpful. Thye AOB has to let you see the from (but not photocopy it) by law Jim
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: We need someone in Boulder to go to the AOB and ask to see the Tax form : 999 (or is it 990) and copy all the numbers dwon and then post them. : This would be very helpful. Thye AOB has to let you see the from (but : not photocopy it) by law Any volunteers? I’d really like to see those numbers.
I’m sure most of us would also. This is the crux of the problem. The organization is not held accountable (literally) by its members.
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: We need someone in Boulder to go to the AOB and ask to see the Tax form : 999 (or is it 990) and copy all the numbers dwon and then post them. : This would be very helpful. Thye AOB has to let you see the from (but : not photocopy it) by law Any volunteers? I’d really like to see those numbers. I’m sure most of us would also. This is the crux of the problem. The organization is not held accountable (literally) by its members.
The real problem is that it *cannot* be held accountable by its members. Even if you get the financial information and learn (surprise, surprise) that the AHA/AOB spends most of its money perpetuating its own existence (and, not coincidentally, the salaries of its officers and the travel expenses of guess who), what can AHA/AOB members do? There’s no mechanism to remove anyone from office — none of the AOB/AHA officers or directors are elected by its members. CP and Co. can just sit back and laugh, as they have in the past. I put forth the following challenge to CP and the AHA/AOB: tell us *why* you won’t allow your "members" to elect the officers and directors of these supposed nonprofit organizations? Ten to one we’ll hear nothing but silence.
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If I am totally off base here, please tell me why… I don’t have a problem with the AHA non-profit or for profit. I paid my dues, got a cool coaster and a sub to ZYMURGY. Was I promised more that I should be persuing? Pdoolittle
Well, Philip, I dunno if you looked at the last issue of Zymurgy, but it was pretty much useless and a waste of our money. It was about why some people brew. Why would we care about that? I think the majority of the subscribers would want technical articles — not to know why some other person brews beer. It does us absolutely no good! One more worthless issue like that and I’m outta here. -Jay Reeves
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Well, Philip, I dunno if you looked at the last issue of Zymurgy, but it was pretty much useless and a waste of our money. It was about why some people brew. Why would we care about that? I think the majority of the subscribers would want technical articles — not to know why some other person brews beer. It does us absolutely no good!
Jay, I’ll reiterate what I said when that issue first came out: I liked it. Sure, there wasn’t much in the way of technical information, but community building is also a necessary part of what the AHA does. A lot of us here on r.c.b may think we get enough of that (come to think of it, I could swear I remember a few "why do you brew?" threads here some months back), but the internet isn’t necessarily representative of the community, or even the AHA, at large. I do think the AHA has some problems. If it’s truly an "association", and not the CP lifelong employment project, then there should be some sort of democratic means to affect changes within it. The whole HBD debacle raises disturbing questions about the administrative capabilites of the personnel (and I still can’t figure out what a mailing list is doing being posted to a newsgroup anyway). But _Zymurgy_ has been terrific as far as I’m concerned. — "I find nothing wrong with mocking the afflicted when that affliction is
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Jay, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If I am totally off base here, please tell me why… I don’t have a problem with the AHA non-profit or for profit. I paid my dues, got a cool coaster and a sub to ZYMURGY. Was I promised more that I should be persuing? Pdoolittle Well, Philip, I dunno if you looked at the last issue of Zymurgy, but it was pretty much useless and a waste of our money. It was about why some people brew. Why would we care about that? I think the majority of the subscribers would want technical articles — not to know why some other person brews beer. It does us absolutely no good! One more worthless issue like that and I’m outta here. -Jay Reeves
You talking about the SI ’Personality’ issue or the Winter ‘96 (the new one) ?
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If I am totally off base here, please tell me why… I don’t have a problem with the AHA non-profit or for profit. I paid my dues, got a cool coaster and a sub to ZYMURGY. Was I promised more that I should be persuing?
If you just paid the $$ to get a subscription to Zymurgy, then you’re doing fine. The problem is, there is a growing need for an organization that will represent the best interests of the homebrewing community. The AHA is not filling this role. Some people DO expect this, that’s where the friction arises. Many perceive the AHA as nothing more than a (poorly run) publishing company, which uses the profits from its publishing and other ventures to support the pub-crawls of some of its officers. Kelly
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I think that this thread ‘bashing AHA’ has run its reasonable course and ought to be ended. Each point of view has been expressed. The AHA folks know how we feel. Let’s give them a chance to work out the problems. 73, JET
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YoYo wrote (referring to HBD): <snip (and I still can’t figure out what a mailing list is doing being posted to a newsgroup anyway).
HBD has been posted to rcb for some years as a service by Dion Hollenbeck. A number of folks prefer to access it that way.
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the AHA and the AoB. The title is "Critiqueing the AHA". here is the address http://alpha.rollanet.org:80/hbd/archive/2245.html Cheers, Jason Henning Big Red Alchemy and Brewing
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We need someone in Boulder to go to the AOB and ask to see the Tax form 999 (or is it 990) and copy all the numbers dwon and then post them. This would be very helpful. Thye AOB has to let you see the from (but not photocopy it) by law
And it seems that stuff like who is on the "Board of Directors" and/or the "Board of Advisors" should be available. Lots of people bitch about how this (these) board(s) is ignored and is useless, but we never hear from those who are on the board(s). I know Dave Miller was recently selected for the Board of Advisors, so I’ll try to ask him soon what his opinion is. I know he quit writing for them several years ago as he felt they were exploiting their authors by not compensating them enough. – Bryan
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Jeff Renner writes:
JR YoYo wrote (referring to HBD): JR <snip (and I still can’t figure out what a mailing list is doing being posted to a newsgroup anyway).
JR HBD has been posted to rcb for some years as a service by Dion JR Hollenbeck. A number of folks prefer to access it that way. And before me by someone else for many years. The reason that I chose to take up the torch and continue posting it is that whaterver site rusn the HBD has an enormous load posting to 8000 some subscribers and if I can subscribe as just one "user" and then who know how many hundreds or thousands of people read it from my posting in rcb, then those people have not swelled the subscriber list. This takes part of the load off the HBD site. And, for the most part, the discussions in HBD *are* different from the discussions in rcb. When the HBD gets going again, I will resume the posting, unless of course I get overwhelming evidence that people who read rcb do not want me to. dion
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We need someone in Boulder to go to the AOB and ask to see the Tax form 999 (or is it 990) and copy all the numbers dwon and then post them. This would be very helpful. Thye AOB has to let you see the from (but not photocopy it) by law Jim
If I were to drive up to Boulder, it would probably be to drink beer, not to transcribe a goofy tax form!
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snippage from those who are on the board(s). I know Dave Miller was recently selected for the Board of Advisors, so I’ll try to ask him soon what his opinion is. I know he quit writing for them several years ago as he felt they were exploiting their authors by not compensating them enough. I don’t think non-staff Zymurgy contributors get paid. Au contraire; I got a whopping $45 for a "Best of Kits" article (Summer ‘96 – "Quaffable German Ales"), not to mention the 20 gallons of beer I brewed (they bought the 4 kits and sent them to me).
Ok. Ok. I’ve been corrected twice now. Mea Culpa.
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<snippage from those who are on the board(s). I know Dave Miller was recently selected for the Board of Advisors, so I’ll try to ask him soon what his opinion is. I know he quit writing for them several years ago as he felt they were exploiting their authors by not compensating them enough. I don’t think non-staff Zymurgy contributors get paid.
Au contraire; I got a whopping $45 for a "Best of Kits" article (Summer ‘96 – "Quaffable German Ales"), not to mention the 20 gallons of beer I brewed (they bought the 4 kits and sent them to me). Not bad, for a complete nobody. Way down south they had a jubilee, Them Georgia folks, they had a jamboree. They were drinking homebrew from a wooden cup, The folks that were dancin’ there got all shook up. Chuck Berry – "Rock ‘n Roll Music"
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And it seems that stuff like who is on the "Board of Directors" and/or the "Board of Advisors" should be available. Lots of people bitch about how this (these) board(s) is ignored and is useless, but we never hear from those who are on the board(s).
Well, as we know, the AHA is still reading the newsgroup, and so they have heard the criticisms. of the Board of Advisors, which is listed inside of each issue of Zymurgy, near the ToC. Currently, the advisers are: Judy Ashworth – California Scott Birdwell – Texas Michael Jackson – England Ed Busch – New Jersey Bill Murphy – Massachusetts Steve Casselman – California Charlie Olchowski – Massachusetts Fred Eckhardt – Oregon George Fix – Texas John Sterling – Missouri Jeff Frane – Oregon – Bryan
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: from those who are on the board(s). I know Dave Miller was recently : selected for the Board of Advisors, so I’ll try to ask him soon what his : opinion is. I know he quit writing for them several years ago as he : felt they were exploiting their authors by not compensating them enough. : I don’t think non-staff Zymurgy contributors get paid. Really!? Well, to hell with them. Not that I’ve ever been published before, but I certainly won’t be going to them in the future. God forbid they should pay somebody for actually doing some work. They might then not have enough money for Charlie to go on his global pub crawl. Je**s this makes me sick. The more I read, the closer I come to pulling my membership. -Alan — as this email account will not be valid as of Dec 20th, 1996 http://alpha.rollanet.org/~mckay/brew/tips/
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And before me by someone else for many years. The reason that I chose to take up the torch and continue posting it is that whaterver site rusn the HBD has an enormous load posting to 8000 some subscribers and if I can subscribe as just one "user" and then who know how many hundreds or thousands of people read it from my posting in rcb, then those people have not swelled the subscriber list. This takes part of the load off the HBD site. And, for the most part, the discussions in HBD *are* different from the discussions in rcb.
Okay, this I can understand. — "I find nothing wrong with mocking the afflicted when that affliction is
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I don’t think non-staff Zymurgy contributors get paid.
Not true. I got $15 for a brief note on the 30 cent beer engine (a 10 cc syringe – someone since called it a pocket beer engine, a much better name IMO) and am getting $35 for "Baking for Brewers," an upcoming article (Spring ‘97) on baking bread with an emphasis on using brewing byproducts. Of course, this works out to a dollar or two an hour, but on the other hand, I got nothing from Brewing Techniques for "Recreating the Classic American Pilsner."
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And it seems that stuff like who is on the "Board of Directors" and/or the "Board of Advisors" should be available. Lots of people bitch about how this (these) board(s) is ignored and is useless, but we never hear
I know several members of the board and all I’ve ever heard was that it is: A. Toothless B. Ignored My understanding is the Board was overwhelmingly opposed to the AHA’s plan to cease sponsorship of the Beer Judge Certification Program (BJCP) and start its own judge certification group. We all know how that turned out. from those who are on the board(s). I know Dave Miller was recently selected for the Board of Advisors, so I’ll try to ask him soon what his opinion is. I know he quit writing for them several years ago as he felt they were exploiting their authors by not compensating them enough.
I don’t think non-staff Zymurgy contributors get paid.
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