Circle casting, domination love spells (was: Re: To Cat, a question)
Question:
# Is it? It strikes me as a strange thing to do: to say that # this piece of underground earth is within the circle but # that this other piece is not… # Not if the cone is very steep… maybe a conic frustum or a # cylinder would work. Once around the circle to cast the lower # edge, once for the upper.
I once over-heard God and the Devil arguing over this notion of a trinity! I wonder if such a thing exists! For I could only imagine how it would look Because all God would ever talk about, were these dreams he had had, of these most perfect of figures and shapes. And the pure splendor of a divine order that would be contained therein. But the only show of recognition that Devil would ever give towards God, and God’s dreams of hope, would be a taunting display of the most twisted and folded parody of his ideas. So I don’t think I could ever picture God, within my mind, reconciling with his old foe. But If I ever did, oh what a compromise I could only imagine it would be. Hmm…
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So I don’t think I could ever picture God, within my mind, reconciling with his old foe.
What? But Satan(Shaitan, Iblis, you name it) was (maybe still is?) God(dess)’s lover! But If I ever did, oh what a compromise I could only imagine it would be.
Compromise? What an Orgasm! Hmm…
Indeed. Love, Papa John John E."Papa John" Mayer Magick*Musick*Mayhem If it don’t hurt a little bit, it ain’t rock & roll!
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So I don’t think I could ever picture God, within my mind, reconciling with his old foe. But If I ever did, oh what a compromise I could only imagine it would be. Hmm…
A picture I hold in my mind (one possibility of the many pictures that might be) is God has his part to play in the events of mankind’s existence, also satan has his part to perform in this drama. Both are looking for the same result. Kinda like the "good cop, bad cop" scenario played out when police officers need information from a suspect in their investigations. Even though each officer approaches the situation differently, their mutual interest is in solving the crime. Charles
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ## Circles are actually spheres, originating in the grimoiric ## concepts of sigilizing protective geometric and theomantic ## diagrams and words onto the floor of the working space. ## That’s as may be but Wiccans frequently talk about ‘cones of ## power’. # of course, that is created WITHIN the Circle during the rite. ## The trouble with a sphere is that either it pokes through the ## ground (or floor if you’re unfortunate) or if you step away ## from the centre your feet end up beneath it. # the inscribed circle is the circumference or equator of the # spherical Cirlce. what’s the problem with having the sphere # poke through the ground? it is part of the ‘grounding and # centering’. # Is it? It strikes me as a strange thing to do: to say that # this piece of underground earth is within the circle but # that this other piece is not… the sphere is a movable envelope which retains connection with that which we love and admire: Terra. it is not ‘this piece or the other’ that is within the Circle, but anything that they allow in as a support for the rite. ## The cone is a little bit more straightforward: its base is ## on the ground but it also has an upper limit. # cone-shape excludes the tall people from the rite if they # are too far from the center. at least their heads. : # Not if the cone is very steep… maybe a conic frustum or a # cylinder would work. Once around the circle to cast the lower # edge, once for the upper. no, that doesn’t focus and concentrate the energy. the idea is that the cone has not only a focal point but also a DIRECTION (toward the point of origin). # it is for containing the power of the energy, thus its name. # OK, but I stand by my observation that Wiccans are not really all # that concerned with the ‘circle’s’ precise vertical geometry. of course, the Circle is a fluctuating energy-envelope which exists for some as a means of containing (and protecting unintended influence on those OUTSIDE) the energies supposed to be raised and sent to have a magical impact. it should be noted that many Wiccans never think about this, and don’t bother to construct astral metaphysics to underlay their ritual preferences. I naturally do so and have therefore come to adopt the most cordial paradigm which explains what is commonly presumed in the Wiccan community. that is, I didn’t learn this stuff from Wiccans, I made it up to explain what was happening in Wiccan rites. # Perhaps Wiccans generally visualise a 3D form but I doubt it # matters if they don’t all visualise the same one. correct, it doesn’t matter at all. the point is the focus and, for some in terms of the Circle, the protection. ## That said I don’t think Wiccans are all that concerned with the ## vertical geometry as long as it’s circular (i.e. has circular ## symmetry around a vertical axis). # yeh I’ve noticed that the circular geometry is very important # to Wiccans, I think because of Gardner’s predilections for # Solomonic magic. # Well that’s certainly a leap. Circles are very very common for # all kinds of sacred things in lots of cultures. is it such a leap? I don’t know where else they got the idea that a circle was such a hot vever. Gardner apparently got the idea from grimoires and appears to have disposed of the triangle which was sometimes used to contain summoned adversarial spirits. it was the spiritual technology of the day, complete with specific recipes and directories for contacting the ‘other worlds’.
Okay, okay… geez, i KNEW when i crossposted this query from alt.lucky.w (folk magic) into some other newsgroups i’d get plenty of answers…but…sheesh! Just to put in two cents from assorted folkloric traditions — circles of protection, cones of power, et al do not often appear in folk magic. The need for protection is not heavy because summoning of demons/angels is not that common in the branches of folk magic i have studied except among African-Americans influenced by European ceremonial magic grimoires — and frankly, such practitioners are no longer engaged in folk magic, being instead African Americans pursuing a course of study in ceremonial magic. The notion of circle-drawing seems to derive from ancient Middle Eastern magick, integrated into Jewish and Islamic traditions, and thence carried into Europe and expressed in Christian Grimoires. In researching the history of Jewish folk magic, i came across Marvin Lowenthal’s "A Wolrd Passed By" which contains illustrations and translations of pre-diaspora Jewish-Babylonian bowls used to obtain divorces from demons. The bowls are shallow and circular in form; within are inscibed decrees of divorcement adjuring assorted named demons to quit a locality or a person’s home. So there is evidence of some use of the circle in the Jewish-Babylonian folk-magic that preceded and gave rise to so-called Solomonic ceremonial magic and thence to wicca. But the magician in this case did not stand inside the circle. [re: the increased perceived need for circles of "protection" in an urban envornmoent versus a rural one} # Not that I'm entirely unsympathetic, the city sure is full of crap. # I guess the best solution is to run off to the woods and find that # magical little grove. 'cept that more and more and more people doing it more and more, and also ripping off the grove's branches and the earth's crystals tends to debilitate the wild.
Well said, little lorax! I sometimes wonder if there's a single intact cave of amyethyst crystals left in Brazil -- they all seem to have been torn from the earth in chinks and shipped to Northern California for the delectation of wholesaome, healing pagans. catherine yronwode Lucky Mojo Curio Co: http://www.luckymojo.com/luckymojocatalogue.html The Lucky W Amulet Archive: http://www.luckymojo.com/luckyw.html Sacred Sex: http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredsex.html The Sacred Landscape: http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredland.html Freemasonry for Women: http://www.luckymojo.com/comasonry.html Comics Warehouse: http://www.luckymojo.com/comicswarehouse.html
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I think this is a facinating thread but have a problem with the notion of agricultural societys below... - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - # Protection of oneself from the outside world, whether it's the # mundane world or the spirit world, has _everything_ to do with # city things. quite possible. the city may inspire paranoia and demon-fear. this leads to dualism and the attempt to squash what is feared, typically the wild. I think the dualist thing has agricultural origins. In order to cultivate food, you have to take a piece of land, clear away everything that's on it, enclose it and defend it. The difference between 'crops' and 'weeds', as well as good and bad animals and people becomes a matter of survival.
I have trouble seeing where you draw this conclusion from. Early on, people didn't know mena and women needed to copulate to produce babies - it just kinda happened. They were gatherers. Then they thought the moon played a part. They were hunter gatherers Then agrarian peoples who may or maynot have also been nomadic moved onto the scene. They had a set of religious beliefs based on duality that they had observed in nature. Then they figured out men and women had to come together but still thought there was a mystical element. They were horticulturalists. Now, before we get to the agricultural society you talk about with plots of land and protecting it, we have already moved into a society where the possibility of looking at life in a dualistic way has evolved from natural observation. Horticulturalists were not agriculturalists in the way we know them and so the whole plot of land thing comes way after the idea of dualism was already well established in certain cultures. At least, that's wht I understood from my university days which are, admittedly, blury now... What I think the city does do is encourage excessive abstraction of experience. Actual religious grace gives way to complicated symbol systems that represent it... for instance, I suspect that any religious idea called 'Logos' has to be an urban notion.
since urban and logos are Greek (again, fuzzy university memory... too much beer I suspect), I'd say ya...*winks May the whispers of the Goddess be the wind at your back, Judith http://www.newmoon.uk.com NEW MOON LAUNCHES NEW SITE DESIGN MARCH 1st! ONLINE SHOPPING TO BE ADDED APRIL 2nd!
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49990222 IIIom # The use of the circle as protection is an old tradition among # ceremonial magicians as well as witches. this is because the witches (esp. Wiccans) got their riteforms from ceremonial mages.
As I said before. Wicca started as a Chapter of the O.T.O. I agree with the nagasiva.
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Love the tag-line. please send The Cat in the Hat my regards. sy
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# Protection of oneself from the outside world, whether it's the # mundane world or the spirit world, has _everything_ to do with # city things. quite possible. the city may inspire paranoia and demon-fear. this leads to dualism and the attempt to squash what is feared, typically the wild.
I think the dualist thing has agricultural origins. In order to cultivate food, you have to take a piece of land, clear away everything that's on it, enclose it and defend it. The difference between 'crops' and 'weeds', as well as good and bad animals and people becomes a matter of survival. Agriculturalist fear of the wild is not irrational. If wild animals eat your crops you'll starve. It's only when those attitudes are carried into the city that they lose their meaning. What I think the city does do is encourage excessive abstraction of experience. Actual religious grace gives way to complicated symbol systems that represent it... for instance, I suspect that any religious idea called 'Logos' has to be an urban notion. -- Ashley Yakeley, Seattle WA
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The notion of circle-drawing seems to derive from ancient Middle Eastern magick,
The origins of magickal circles, as far back as traceable, came from the Indian use of yantras. Before that is anyone's guess. The Arabs brought it back from India, and from there it made its way into European traditions. integrated into Jewish and Islamic traditions, and thence carried into Europe and expressed in Christian Grimoires.
The Europeans got it first; European Jewish cabalist-magicians picked it up from there. At the time, there weren't many Jews (and no qabalists) left in the Middle East at all. There were some in places like Yemen and a few in Baghdad, but for the most part the Jewish diaspora had carried the bulk of the surviving Israelite population into Spain and Eastern Europe. Tzimon Yliaster Tools of CHAOS http://www.xiqual.com PO Box 26362, San Francisco, CA 94126
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But can I get a double scoop of chocolate fudge ripple in that cone of power...? That's as may be but Wiccans frequently talk about 'cones of power'. Phhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhht *rolls eyes back* Ahhhhhhh that's it
May the whispers of the Goddess be the wind at your back, Judith NEW MOON LAUNCHES NEW SITE DESIGN MARCH 1st! ONLINE SHOPPING TO BE ADDED APRIL 2nd! http://www.newmoon.uk.com
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49990222 IIIom ## Circles are actually spheres, originating in the grimoiric concepts ## of sigilizing protective geometric and theomantic diagrams and words ## onto the floor of the working space. ## That's as may be but Wiccans frequently talk about 'cones of power'. # of course, that is created WITHIN the Circle during the rite. ## The trouble with a sphere is that either it pokes through the ## ground (or floor if you're unfortunate) or if you step away ## from the centre your feet end up beneath it. # the inscribed circle is the circumference or equator of the # spherical Cirlce. what's the problem with having the sphere # poke through the ground? it is part of the 'grounding and # centering'. # Is it? It strikes me as a strange thing to do: to say that # this piece of underground earth is within the circle but # that this other piece is not... the sphere is a movable envelope which retains connection with that which we love and admire: Terra. it is not 'this piece or the other' that is within the Circle, but anything that they allow in as a support for the rite. ## The cone is a little bit more straightforward: its base is ## on the ground but it also has an upper limit. # cone-shape excludes the tall people from the rite if they # are too far from the center. at least their heads. : # Not if the cone is very steep... maybe a conic frustum or a # cylinder would work. Once around the circle to cast the lower # edge, once for the upper. no, that doesn't focus and concentrate the energy. the idea is that the cone has not only a focal point but also a DIRECTION (toward the point of origin). # it is for containing the power of the energy, thus its name. # OK, but I stand by my observation that Wiccans are not really all # that concerned with the 'circle's' precise vertical geometry. of course, the Circle is a fluctuating energy-envelope which exists for some as a means of containing (and protecting unintended influence on those OUTSIDE) the energies supposed to be raised and sent to have a magical impact. it should be noted that many Wiccans never think about this, and don't bother to construct astral metaphysics to underlay their ritual preferences. I naturally do so and have therefore come to adopt the most cordial paradigm which explains what is commonly presumed in the Wiccan community. that is, I didn't learn this stuff from Wiccans, I made it up to explain what was happening in Wiccan rites. # Perhaps Wiccans generally visualise a 3D form but I doubt it # matters if they don't all visualise the same one. correct, it doesn't matter at all. the point is the focus and, for some in terms of the Circle, the protection. ## That said I don't think Wiccans are all that concerned with the ## vertical geometry as long as it's circular (i.e. has circular ## symmetry around a vertical axis). # yeh I've noticed that the circular geometry is very important # to Wiccans, I think because of Gardner's predilections for # Solomonic magic. # Well that's certainly a leap. Circles are very very common for # all kinds of sacred things in lots of cultures. is it such a leap? I don't know where else they got the idea that a circle was such a hot vever. Gardner apparently got the idea from grimoires and appears to have disposed of the triangle which was sometimes used to contain summoned adversarial spirits. it was the spiritual technology of the day, complete with specific recipes and directories for contacting the 'other worlds'. ## Presumably that means the bad stuff that they're protecting ## themselves from is more likely to come from horizontally ## around them, rather than above or below them. # # eh? no, the Circle needn't always be for protection. the ones # who wanted to be hip told me it was like a cauldron, not a shield. # Ah, to contain the power so the pressure can build up, or something. that's it, yes. # But still I detect a sense in which the power needs to be kept in # at the sides in particular, or else it will be compromised by # contact with the nasty profane rest-of-the-world stuff outside. that's one way to see it, yes, and some Wiccans do see it this way. I admit that I didn't like it when I heard stuff like that, so I set about finding alternatives and either heard or created whatever I liked later. # Not that I'm entirely unsympathetic, the city sure is full of crap. # I guess the best solution is to run off to the woods and find that # magical little grove. 'cept that more and more and more people doing it more and more, and also ripping off the grove's branches and the earth's crystals tends to debilitate the wild. you ignore the possibility that they are PROTECTING the outside world from potentially mislaid spellwork. ## ...religion should be concerned with building direct 'sacred' ## relationships to the outside world. Cutting it off doesn't seem ## like a very good start. # # consider the term "profane" and its historical significance. the # term 'sacred' itself is used to indicate a separate experience. # Well that's a shame. I tend to use the word to refer to religious # relationships with the world. sometimes one cannot build such relationships with the whole world at once, so we construct microcosmic areas where this relation can easily be seen and nurtured. taking on the love of all is a big job and very few can regard the entirety of existence as sacred in the manner you are describing. # mystical experiences tend to begin with 'cutting off' intentions. # That's generally an urban phenomenon, is it? quite possible. # and anyway it's a cutting off from the annoying distracting stuff # but a reconnection to the world in a broader sense. Or so I believe. I think it is a reorientation. the world in a broader sense INCLUDES the annoying distracting stuff. I'd compare it to cleaning the filter in the dryer before going on to do more loads of laundry. # The Bambuti of the Ituri rainforest, who obtain their food by # foraging and hunting, are an example of religious activity that # embraces culture and nature without drawing a line between # (my reading of Colin Turnbull's account _The Forest People_).... sounds great. if that division already exists, then I think that religion and mysticism become more important. just telling people 'go be like that' doesn't usually work, I find. lorax666 -- emailed replies may be posted; cc me replies if you want a response
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49990221 B Baker IIIom Happy Elementary Day! Celebrating Deduction! # Circles are actually spheres, originating in the grimoiric concepts # of sigilizing protective geometric and theomantic diagrams and words # onto the floor of the working space. # That's as may be but Wiccans frequently talk about 'cones of power'. of course, that is created WITHIN the Circle during the rite.
Oh. Yeah. # The trouble with a sphere is that either it pokes through the # ground (or floor if you're unfortunate) or if you step away # from the centre your feet end up beneath it. the inscribed circle is the circumference or equator of the spherical Cirlce. what's the problem with having the sphere poke through the ground? it is part of the 'grounding and centering'.
Is it? It strikes me as a strange thing to do: to say that this piece of underground earth is within the circle but that this other piece is not... # The cone is a little bit more straightforward: its base is # on the ground but it also has an upper limit. cone-shape excludes the tall people from the rite if they are too far from the center. at least their heads. :
Not if the cone is very steep... maybe a conic frustum or a cylinder would work. Once around the circle to cast the lower edge, once for the upper. naw, it is for containing the power of the energy, thus its name.
OK, but I stand by my observation that Wiccans are not really all that concerned with the 'circle's' precise vertical geometry. Perhaps Wiccans generally visualise a 3D form but I doubt it matters if they don't all visualise the same one. # That said I don't think Wiccans are all that concerned with the # vertical geometry as long as it's circular (i.e. has circular # symmetry around a vertical axis). yeh I've noticed that the circular geometry is very important to Wiccans, I think because of Gardner's predilections for Solomonic magic.
Well that's certainly a leap. Circles are very very common for all kinds of sacred things in lots of cultures. # Presumably that means the bad stuff that they're protecting # themselves from is more likely to come from horizontally # around them, rather than above or below them. eh? no, the Circle needn't always be for protection. the ones who wanted to be hip told me it was like a cauldron, not a shield.
Ah, to contain the power so the pressure can build up, or something. But still I detect a sense in which the power needs to be kept in at the sides in particular, or else it will be compromised by contact with the nasty profane rest-of-the-world stuff outside. Not that I'm entirely unsympathetic, the city sure is full of crap. I guess the best solution is to run off to the woods and find that magical little grove. 'sides, the Cone of Power is aptly named. it is the focal beam of coalesced energy sent out the top of the sphere ('Circle') toward the intended target (or into the Circle if the target is also inside the Circle). this is how I was taught it in Wicca 101, or at least how I interpreted my instruction. :
I'll have to take your word for it. I'm far more interested in religion than magic anyway, so I tend to only look at the religious aspects of magic. # ...religion should be concerned with building direct 'sacred' # relationships to the outside world. Cutting it off doesn't seem # like a very good start. consider the term "profane" and its historical significance. the term 'sacred' itself is used to indicate a separate experience.
Well that's a shame. I tend to use the word to refer to religious relationships with the world. mystical experiences tend to begin with 'cutting off' intentions.
That's generally an urban phenomenon, and anyway it's a cutting off from the annoying distracting stuff but a reconnection to the world in a broader sense. Or so I believe. The Bambuti of the Ituri rainforest, who obtain their food by foraging and hunting, are an example of religious activity that embraces culture and nature without drawing a line between (my reading of Colin Turnbull's account _The Forest People_). A very interesting study of the religious lives of a wide range of societies compared to their interaction with the habitat is _Ecstasy, Religion and Alternate Reality_, by Felicitas Goodman. -- Ashley Yakeley, Seattle WA
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49990222 IIIom # The use of the circle as protection is an old tradition among # ceremonial magicians as well as witches. this is because the witches (esp. Wiccans) got their riteforms from ceremonial mages. # Protection of oneself from the outside world, whether it's the # mundane world or the spirit world, has _everything_ to do with # city things. quite possible. the city may inspire paranoia and demon-fear. this leads to dualism and the attempt to squash what is feared, typically the wild. what urban dwellers may need to learn is how to summon and find room for their demons, perhaps returning to some semblance of humanity. # It has to do with some of the things that are summoned when # one uses power. # You're a damn fool if you use a circle to protect yourself from # 'things summoned'. really? that is apparently a very common perception of the purpose of the magical circle. cf. texts like the Lesser Key of Solomon. # As part of the material world you carry the sacred light: if # you manifest it openly and without fear or shame, all 'evil' # spirits must turn away or be transformed. To the pure, all # things are pure. I agree, because they have integrated all elements of the world into themselves and have become kindred to the known cosmos. the 'evil' doesn't turn away, it ceases to exist (being but a figment at the start, or opposed in compassion by the pure). blessed beast! nagasiva -- http://www.abyss.com/tokus; http://www.luckymojo.com/mojocatSPELLS.html
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49990221 B Baker IIIom Happy Elementary Day! Celebrating Deduction! ## ...Wiccans and neo-pagans who work off of Celtic and Germanic ## traditions know a lot more about [circle-casting] than i do; # Circles are actually spheres, originating in the grimoiric concepts # of sigilizing protective geometric and theomantic diagrams and words # onto the floor of the working space. # That’s as may be but Wiccans frequently talk about ‘cones of power’. of course, that is created WITHIN the Circle during the rite. # The trouble with a sphere is that either it pokes through the # ground (or floor if you’re unfortunate) or if you step away # from the centre your feet end up beneath it. the inscribed circle is the circumference or equator of the spherical Cirlce. what’s the problem with having the sphere poke through the ground? it is part of the ‘grounding and centering’. # The cone is a little bit more straightforward: its base is # on the ground but it also has an upper limit. cone-shape excludes the tall people from the rite if they are too far from the center. at least their heads. : naw, it is for containing the power of the energy, thus its name. # That said I don’t think Wiccans are all that concerned with the # vertical geometry as long as it’s circular (i.e. has circular # symmetry around a vertical axis). yeh I’ve noticed that the circular geometry is very important to Wiccans, I think because of Gardner’s predilections for Solomonic magic. # Presumably that means the bad stuff that they’re protecting # themselves from is more likely to come from horizontally # around them, rather than above or below them. eh? no, the Circle needn’t always be for protection. the ones who wanted to be hip told me it was like a cauldron, not a shield. ’sides, the Cone of Power is aptly named. it is the focal beam of coalesced energy sent out the top of the sphere (‘Circle’) toward the intended target (or into the Circle if the target is also inside the Circle). this is how I was taught it in Wicca 101, or at least how I interpreted my instruction. : # sometimes in Wiccan rites they # are constructed materially, but usually just symbolically (that is, # astrally). Wiccans seem to like to use edged and/or pointed weapons # in rite to ’separate themselves from the ordinary waking world’ by # symbolically cutting themselves off from it so as to then engage # magic ‘between the worlds’. # …religion should be concerned with building direct ’sacred’ # relationships to the outside world. Cutting it off doesn’t seem # like a very good start. consider the term "profane" and its historical significance. the term ’sacred’ itself is used to indicate a separate experience. mystical experiences tend to begin with ‘cutting off’ intentions. blessed beast! lorax666 — http://www.abyss.com/tokus; http://www.luckymojo.com/mojocatSPELLS.html
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That’s as may be but Wiccans frequently talk about ‘cones of power’.
Phhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhht *rolls eyes back* Ahhhhhhh that’s it
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writes: Wiccans seem to like to use edged and/or pointed weapons in rite to ’separate themselves from the ordinary waking world’ by symbolically cutting themselves off from it so as to then engage magic ‘between the worlds’.
It does make a nice blue shadowy line in the air. http:members.tripod.comstar_lady_2index.html
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As the circle is symbol/metaphor, I wouldn’t think it matters whether it is "actually" a sphere, cylinder, cone or circle. What matters is that you see it as a protection.
And there are many types of protection. I have this song I use which contain the words above me, below me and all around me. It all depends on what I am doing as to what type protection I will use. There are some who believe one does not need to ask for protection. I have a hard time understanding why people know they need safeguards here in the mundane world, yet believe it is ok to enter into the world between the worlds without protection. I will say this much due to expierance, since I have started using protection, the atmosphere in my apartment is much better. http:members.tripod.comstar_lady_2index.html
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Very suspicious in my view, though perhaps this is a matter of personal taste. To me, religion should be concerned with building direct ’sacred’ relationships to the outside world. Cutting it off doesn’t seem like a very good start. Indeed, it is a matter of personal practice. Gods and godesses are not friendly neighbors.
They are not neighbors at all. They are the world. … I think the protection thing is an essentially urban theme. Cities are very noisy places, both acoustically and semantically, and in particular city-dwellers come into contact with far more people day-to-day than they can possibly build relationships with or even find anything about. I believe this is all reflected in their (actually, mine too unfortunately) spiritual lives. The use of the circle as protection is an old tradition among ceremonial magicians as well as witches. It has nothing to do with city things.
Protection of oneself from the outside world, whether it’s the mundane world or the spirit world, has _everything_ to do with city things. It has to do with some of the things that are summoned when one uses power.
You’re a damn fool if you use a circle to protect yourself from ‘things summoned’. As part of the material world you carry the sacred light: if you manifest it openly and without fear or shame, all ‘evil’ spirits must turn away or be transformed. To the pure, all things are pure. I think that opening up gates gets one what got Ishtar when she left her jewels behind…
Ishtar, or Inanna, the ancient Sumerian goddess of the city of Uruk (among other things). — Ashley Yakeley, Seattle WA
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Circles are actually spheres,
Bzzt. Circle = circle, sphere = sphere, me = monkey. originating in the grimoiric concepts
As all good things should. of sigilizing protective geometric and theomantic diagrams and words onto the floor of the working space. sometimes in Wiccan rites they are constructed materially, but usually just symbolically (that is, astrally). Wiccans seem to like to use edged and/or pointed weapons in rite to ’separate themselves from the ordinary waking world’ by symbolically cutting themselves off from it so as to then engage magic ‘between the worlds’.
Unless they are gonna actually draw blood, i’ll call them wussy wiccans. whether this is done prior to or after some sort of purification process appears to be a variable, a few not bothering with this latter at all. some see the Circle as protection and some see it as a means of focussing the magical energies which are to be applied toward a specific end during the ritual itself.
Circles are destruction and death. They focus the mind. at the end of the rite many reverse the Circle-creation process, ‘deconstructing’ or ‘taking down’ the Circle. some actually like to ‘dissolve’ it, allow it to remain "open yet unbroken", forging a community-building tool and adding to the strength of individual working spaces.
I like to let the forces of nature break it themselves. Circles on the beach are cool. when you talk about something being ‘meant to be’ or not, does this not imply a belief in predestination? if so, where do you think that this aspect of hoodoo concepts comes from and are there some who dispute it who are within the conjure community?
They arise from me. I control all. I control this newsgroup but damned if I can find the buttons and levers yet hehehe
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Circles are actually spheres
What, always? I disagree. There are plenty of examples of circles drawn on the ground being a line of protection, not a wall or sphere. The shaman pissing a circle on the ground, or a moat around a castle, for example. As the circle is symbol/metaphor, I wouldn’t think it matters whether it is "actually" a sphere, cylinder, cone or circle. What matters is that you see it as a protection. — Ben H
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benedicthassell says… Circles are actually spheres What, always? I disagree.
Bucky Fuller might have said that all circles are actually simultaneously-concave-convex spherical tetrahedra. Hurts my brain. I’m fond of it. Best, –Gar
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49990218 IIIom # …Wiccans and neo-pagans who work off of Celtic and Germanic # traditions know a lot more about [circle-casting] than i do; # i am cross-posting your request (from alt.lucky.w, which deals # with folk-magic)…. Perhaps someone there will have a # concise set of axioms for you. Circles are actually spheres, originating in the grimoiric concepts of sigilizing protective geometric and theomantic diagrams and words onto the floor of the working space.
That’s as may be but Wiccans frequently talk about ‘cones of power’. The trouble with a sphere is that either it pokes through the ground (or floor if you’re unfortunate) or if you step away from the centre your feet end up beneath it. The cone is a little bit more straightforward: its base is on the ground but it also has an upper limit. That said I don’t think Wiccans are all that concerned with the vertical geometry as long as it’s circular (i.e. has circular symmetry around a vertical axis). Presumably that means the bad stuff that they’re protecting themselves from is more likely to come from horizontally around them, rather than above or below them. sometimes in Wiccan rites they are constructed materially, but usually just symbolically (that is, astrally). Wiccans seem to like to use edged and/or pointed weapons in rite to ’separate themselves from the ordinary waking world’ by symbolically cutting themselves off from it so as to then engage magic ‘between the worlds’.
Very suspicious in my view, though perhaps this is a matter of personal taste. To me, religion should be concerned with building direct ’sacred’ relationships to the outside world. Cutting it off doesn’t seem like a very good start. whether this is done prior to or after some sort of purification process appears to be a variable, a few not bothering with this latter at all. some see the Circle as protection and some see it as a means of focussing the magical energies which are to be applied toward a specific end during the ritual itself.
I think the protection thing is an essentially urban theme. Cities are very noisy places, both acoustically and semantically, and in particular city-dwellers come into contact with far more people day-to-day than they can possibly build relationships with or even find anything about. I believe this is all reflected in their (actually, mine too unfortunately) spiritual lives. … # Some conjure doctors have told their clients to work a spell once and # then "wait and watch" for three days; if during that time the client # sees a sign that the spell is working, that’s an indication to let # things be, for the results will come through. If the client see a sign # that the spell is NOT working (a counter-sign), they advise working the # spell again, but no more than three times total, because some thigns are # not meant to be. when you talk about something being ‘meant to be’ or not, does this not imply a belief in predestination?
I don’t see why. It may be phrased that way but it seems more likely to me to mean simply that some attempts to perform magic are not appropriate: either not likely to work or perhaps ‘against the tide’. — Ashley Yakeley, Seattle WA
Response:
49990218 IIIom # …Wiccans and neo-pagans who work off of Celtic and Germanic # traditions know a lot more about [circle-casting] than i do; # i am cross-posting your request (from alt.lucky.w, which deals # with folk-magic)…. Perhaps someone there will have a # concise set of axioms for you. Circles are actually spheres, originating in the grimoiric concepts of sigilizing protective geometric and theomantic diagrams and words onto the floor of the working space. sometimes in Wiccan rites they are constructed materially, but usually just symbolically (that is, astrally). Wiccans seem to like to use edged and/or pointed weapons in rite to ’separate themselves from the ordinary waking world’ by symbolically cutting themselves off from it so as to then engage magic ‘between the worlds’. whether this is done prior to or after some sort of purification process appears to be a variable, a few not bothering with this latter at all. some see the Circle as protection and some see it as a means of focussing the magical energies which are to be applied toward a specific end during the ritual itself. at the end of the rite many reverse the Circle-creation process, ‘deconstructing’ or ‘taking down’ the Circle. some actually like to ‘dissolve’ it, allow it to remain "open yet unbroken", forging a community-building tool and adding to the strength of individual working spaces. # Some conjure doctors have told their clients to work a spell once and # then "wait and watch" for three days; if during that time the client # sees a sign that the spell is working, that’s an indication to let # things be, for the results will come through. If the client see a sign # that the spell is NOT working (a counter-sign), they advise working the # spell again, but no more than three times total, because some thigns are # not meant to be. when you talk about something being ‘meant to be’ or not, does this not imply a belief in predestination? if so, where do you think that this aspect of hoodoo concepts comes from and are there some who dispute it who are within the conjure community? nagasiva — http://www.luckymojo.com/mojocatSPELLS.html; http://www.abyss.com/tokus; cc replies to me.
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Cat, Can you post some generic circle-casting information for novices and dabblers who want to protect or purify themselves when trying spells and to prepare for them properly? …especially spells that can cause repercussions to the caster.
Casting protective circles is an element of European ceremonial magic that has found its way into the traditions of other cultures. Wiccans and neo-pagans who work off of Celtic and Germanic traditions know a lot more about this than i do; i am cross-posting your request (from alt.lucky.w, which deals with folk-magic) to a couple of more gewnerral magical and mystical newsgroups, namely alt.magick.tyagi, alt.magick, alt.religion.wicca, alt.witchcraft, and alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic. Perhaps someone there will have a concise set of axioms for you. Also, does it build strength to repeat a certain spell, and if so, how long should one wait to try it again?
Some conjure doctors have told their clients to work a spell once and then "wait and watch" for three days; if during that time the client sees a sign that the spell is working, that’s an indication to let things be, for the results will come through. If the client see a sign that the spell is NOT working (a counter-sign), they advise working the spell again, but no more than three times total, because some thigns are not meant to be. Now, as to what constitutes a "sign" — well, let me give a few examples. Say you are trying to get a man named John to love you. You work a red candle and lodestone spell like the one at http://www.luckymojo.com/lovespells.html#LODESTONEATTRACT and then wait and watch for three days. On the third day, a friend tells you that John was mentioning you the other night and he said he thinks you’re cute. Well, obviously, that’s a sign that the spell is working; do nothing further and it will come through for you. There can be other, subtler signs, too. For instance, maybe you go to church and the preacher takes as his text "The Gospel of John" and he mentions that this is the most "mystical and deep of the gospels; the one that strikes closest to the heart." That’s a good sign. However, if during the three days, you meet up with John and he is cold, or if you read a novel and to your surprise the villain is named John, or if in church the preacher suddenly calls out, "Many Christians have trouble with the Revelations of John because this book is not like the other books in the New Testament — and in fact, some preachers will tell you (and here he turns right toward you as he speaks), "Don’t read John at all!"…well, those are counter-signs; you can wok the spell again, but success, if it comes, will not be easy, and it may not last long. Anyway, that’s what i was told. Your mileage may vary. And what, in your view, is the determination as to whether a spell works or not, especially one that does interfere with another’s free will?
If you get what you want, the spell has worked. But you may not want what you get. In some cases, especially love spells involving female domination, like the ones at http://www.luckymojo.com/femaledomination.html or spells for reconciliation after a break-up, such as the one at http://www.luckymojo.com/lovespells.html#RECONCILIATION the desired person can be brought under your control, but they may be an unsuitable mate and not worth your time in the long run. Folks weak enough to have their will entirely sapped by a spell of domination are not always the best mates for strong-willed magicians. Better would be a pairing between two powerful people who each voluntarily agree to give over to one other some of their own dominating energy, in the interest of service to love. catherine yronwode Lucky Mojo Curio Co: http://www.luckymojo.com/luckymojocatalogue.html The Lucky W Amulet Archive: http://www.luckymojo.com/luckyw.html Sacred Sex: http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredsex.html The Sacred Landscape: http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredland.html Freemasonry for Women: http://www.luckymojo.com/comasonry.html Comics Warehouse: http://www.luckymojo.com/comicswarehouse.html
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