Filed under: Community Activism
Question:
"toto" writes: >CPS removed or had 53,000 kids in foster care last year…. a large majority >needlessly.
Again you offer an assertion that *the majority* of removals were needless with no proof of that assertion. I agree that there are many needless removals, but I don’t buy *the majority* without hard evidence. Hi, Toto! You can check 1999 statistics provided the federal government by state child protective agencies. http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/programs/cb/publications/cm99/table5e.htm In this table, the states report how many children are taken from homes where CPS unsubstantiated all allegations of abuse/neglect or risk of abuse/neglect. I suspect these numbers represent a portion of the children Bobb has said are removed from their homes wrongfully. Child welfare expert and social work professor LeRoy Pelton (1989) claims that 80% of the children in foster care should not have been placed there. Doug Reference: Pelton, LeRoy (1989). For reasons of poverty. New York: Praeger.
Response:
"Ray Da Capo" <h…@there.com> wrote in message news:72t8et03bgdi80tifuv4vibur6hbqbq1he@canttouchthis… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 03:27:16 GMT, Eric Cordian > <e…@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote: > >In alt.activism.children Ray Da Capo <h…@there.com> wrote: > >> On Sun, 22 Apr 2001 17:51:20 GMT, Eric Cordian > >> <e…@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote: > >>>Every notice how Ms. Sacks always describes parents as "stressed out" and > >>>children as the ones with "problems." > >> ‘Always’ is almost always wrong. Certainly is in this case. > >In my experience, I’ve never seen her do otherwise. > Hmm. I suppose I could point out examples where Dorothy has written > that children are treated like slaves, and that parents are the cause > of children’s problems, but then I suppose you would reply that > children are in fact treated like slaves and parents are in fact the > cause of children’s problems, and then I suppose I would be obliged to > point out that this is irrelevant to the point of what Dorothy writes, > and then I suppose someone else would accuse me of being an > anal-retentive boring whiner trying to supress the natural flow of the > thread. I suppose I could try to save a lot of time by simply stating > your experience on this point is clearly lacking, but given past > experience, I suppose such an effort would be in vain.
I’m not sure I understand what you said, but I if you mean what I think you said, I agree. Bobb
Response:
"bobb" <BOB…@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9c23ae$sjs$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "toto" <nob…@xxozxx.com> wrote in message > news:v677et41pbdkiiucrepvo7tsogmd0q2q5l@4ax.com… > > On Sun, 22 Apr 2001 19:26:07 -0500, "bobb" <BOB…@ix.netcom.com> > > wrote: > > >"toto" <nob…@xxozxx.com> wrote in message > > >news:mra6et01hcrg27119rob8s7pqr3dda45ui@4ax.com… > > >> On Sun, 22 Apr 2001 17:51:20 GMT, Eric Cordian > > >> <e…@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote: > > >> >In alt.activism.children toto <nob…@xxozxx.com> wrote: > > >> >> It doesn’t make sense, > > >> >> but it will continue unless we begin to find ways to help natural > > >> >> parents who are stressed deal with children who have problems > > >> >Every notice how Ms. Sacks always describes parents as "stressed out" > and > > >> >children as the ones with "problems." > > >> >I wonder if we’ll ever see a post where the kids are stressed out > because > > >> >the parents have problems. Fat chance I know, but hope springs > eternal. > > >> Actually, Eric, parents do have problems that create stress in > > >> children, I agree. > > >> My agreement with you on that point, however, does not mean that I > > >> believe that taking children away from parents they already are > > >> bonded to and love is the solution to that problem. This solution > > >> often creates children who are *more* stressed, not less so. > > >> As a society, we have to help parents who have problems to learn how > > >> to parent in ways that work for the children. If you think that > > >> the government can *make* parents love and nurture their children, > > >> you are simply foolish, imo. Parents love their kids, but often > > >> they do not know how to nurture them. They take out their own > > >> stresses and problems on the children. We have to deal with the > > >> adult stresses in order to allow them to become better parents. > > >> Dorothy > > >> There is no sound, no cry in all the world > > >> that can be heard unless someone listens .. > > >> source unknown > > >Parents don’t alway love their children. "nuff said. > > Not always, but most do, Bobb. > > Unwanted children are a problem, but not one that can be solved > > by having the government raise them, imo. The best cure for > > unwanted children would be changing our attitudes toward sex > > and birth control so that it was *normal* for anyone who has sex > > and does not want a child to use the best birth control available > > to them without feeling weird about it. > > >CPS removed or had 53,000 kids in foster care last year…. a large > majority > > >needlessly. > > Again you offer an assertion that *the majority* of removals were > > needless with no proof of that assertion. > > I agree that there are many needless removals, but I don’t buy *the > > majority* without hard evidence. > I doubt even then, you’d beleive it. I’m most certain you find a > rationalization. > > >The lack of homes is really ficticious… there are simply too > > >many kids removed unnecessarily. > As I mentioned in the above posts… the courts are recognizing that a > majority… yes .. and majority of kids are being removed unnecessairly. > > Really? You have homes for all kids who are currently removed? > That sounds a bit snotty, Dorothy. I didn’t say I had home for all the > kids. There are homes available… contrary to your belief… and there > would be many more homes for those who really need a place, if other > kids weren’t taken from their own homes needlessly. > > >I also know of foster parents wanting kids.. that have room and won’t get > > >a kid unless certain criteria is met… > > Because? Are these particular foster parents untrained? Unable to > > deal with problem children? Have they signed up for a limited kind > > of licensing? > > >most usually a kid without problems. DCFS (and I hate to defend them) > must > > >find placements for the unmanagable and disruptive kids. > > Yes, agreed and MOST victims of abuse will be disruptive at least > > and many will be unmanagable without specialized knowledge. > I didnt say those who were disruptive and unmanageable had been abused in > any way. Wrong conclusion! Many who are removed do not want to stay in > foster care.. they want to go home where they were loved and cared for. > There are many more kids who are removed because of ‘neglect’.. more so even > than abuse. Neglect..can be many things… including being poor… but > still loved and cared for. > Actually, most all the kids I had were physically and/or sexually abused > over long periods of time. None were disruptive or unmanganable… for the > most part the were regular kids. In fact, I took them off all medication… > much to the initial horror of a few caseworkers… but they did agree to let > me try. I specifically deal with ’specialized care" as do the foster > parents I mentioned above… and they’re probably still waiting for kids. > Not one kid left my house for another foster home… and their average > length of stay was about 7 years. Two of my oldest now have two and three > kids of their own and doing quite well. > > >The problem is letting parents be parents in the first place … not the > > >government. > > Again we agree that parents should be *allowed* to be parents. The > > problem though is in protecting children’s right not to be abused > > while allowing that and protecting the rights of adults who are > > accused as well. It is just not a simple and easy thing. > You seemed caught up in this thing about abuse… abuse… even sexual > abuse that you focus on … is quite small in relation to the kids being > removed from their home. for other reason. > Investigations by child protective services (CPS) agencies in all > States determined that approximately 903,000 children were victims of child > maltreatment in 1998. > In 1998, CPS agencies investigated nearly 3 million reports alleging > the maltreatment of children. More than half (approximately 53 percent) of > all reports alleging maltreatment came from professionals, including > educators, law enforcement and justice officials, medical and mental health > professionals, social service professionals and child care providers. The > remaining 47 percent of reports were submitted by nonprofessionals, > including parents, other relatives, alleged victims, and community members. > More children suffer neglect than any other form of maltreatment. > Investigations determined that about 53 percent of victims in 1998 suffered > neglect, 22 percent physical abuse, 12 percent sexual abuse, 6 percent > emotional maltreatment, 2 percent medical neglect, and 25 percent other > forms of maltreatment. > > >If the govenment has a role is should be reserved for those who > > >really need assistance. > > >Bobb > > See my other post referencing this website about reforming the > > system > > http://www.rppi.org/socialservices/ps262.html > > Dorothy > > There is no sound, no cry in all the world > > that can be heard unless someone listens .. > > source unknown
Hi Dorothy… I missed this… sorta cut back on some of these groups… takes too much time….but this was great… thanks! Bobb
Response:
They got off light which is plainly wrong. Real parents have gotten far worse for far less. On the other hand, this appeal claim sounds just like the CPS I’ve come to know. Withholding information, stonewalling, surprise and fear. Same tactics Spanish Inquisition used. Question: How could they even remotely have been inadequately notified of the charges against them? —————————————————– Article: "In their appeal, the Everses argued that their convictions should be erased because they were not adequately notified of the charges against them to properly prepare their defense. (Appeal court denied) "Because defendants possessed the essential information to procure witnesses, to prepare their defense and to avoid surprise, the trial court properly denied their motions," Appellate Judge Jose Marquez wrote in the court’s unpublished opinion, which was released late last week.
Response:
"toto" <nob…@xxozxx.com> wrote in message
news:rb78et801qctuujnpi99jinspei6je5ct9@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:33:36 GMT, "Greg Hanson" > <gree…@hotmail.com> wrote: > >Florida study proved that a baby is actually better off staying with a > >"Crack Head" mother, than being removed by CPS. > Please site a URL or print reference so those interested can look at > this study. My background is in math and I have rarely seen a > social science study that *proves* cause and effect and I have not > been impressed by the statistical work in these studies even when I > agree with their conclusions as I do in the case of the spanking > studies. Please reference the full study, not an abstract if > possible. > Dorothy > There is no sound, no cry in all the world > that can be heard unless someone listens .. > source unknown
Why should it seem unusal that a drug using parent cant be a good parent. Do all parents who drink acohol make bad parents? Parents have lost their children that used drug in the same manner others use alcohol. You cant argue that drug are illegal… because the list of criminal offenses not prohibited includes those who have committed burglary, murder, theft, arson, and score of others crimes. Only sex and drugs seem to be the most limiting. One can only imagine why. Well… Dorothy….perhaps YOU should start proving the basis for your thoughts as well. I see not a single reference… except "I never heard of that before" or "I don’t think is happens as frequently". Your comments seem to come from your limited personal experiences which are heavily biased. I even posted a reference that 2% of kids were removed from their homes because of verbal and emotional abuse. Something you said you never heard of before… so therefore it couldn’t be true. Although teachers become informed, one way or another of a child’s background, I can tell you with certainty that not a single teacher knew the complete history of kids in my care. In fact, most teachers were not even aware they were foster children. As for my own personal experiences… I lived the kids lives every day… not just one hour conversations construed to be helpful therapy or counseling fraught with theoretical solutions. I’ve had kids in my care that should NOT have been removed from their homes… and some that needed to be…. and others that wanted to be. How one can beleive spanking studies is beyond comprehension as well. The only finding on either side is an emotional justification. Of course… spanking is so common it’s not hard to associate whatever kind of behavior one is searching for …to find it. No doubt a majority of Presidents have been spanked… perhaps a majority of Olympic athletes as well. If most convicts admit to being spanked… they also admit to chewing gum on a regular basis, too. That I either agree or disagree is not the question… but there have been no valid studies either way. There exists today is an illusion that sexual or physical abuse is more common than it really is… and certain hysterical people keep emotions running in high gear without caring about the family destruction and suicides that result needlessly. Not unlike the false number of sexually abusive day-care centers… and before that, the missing kid syndrome. You also fail to distinguish between incest and other forms of sexual conduct. Even so, of all "inappropriate" sexual behavior the largest category is a single, one time event that amounted to nothing more than a touch in the ‘wrong’ place… most alleged to be perpetrated by child care professional such as teachers. You cling to the thought that abused children will be abusers as adults. Another theory that simply does not hold water any longer. If so, there are a few teachers who should not be teaching. Bobb
Response:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 03:25:38 GMT, Eric Cordian <e…@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote: >In alt.activism.children bobb <BOB…@ix.netcom.com> wrote: >> Parents don’t alway love their children. "nuff said. >Furthermore, kids grow up just fine as long as they have positive >interaction with adults. There is no requirement that those adults >be their biological parents.
Eric, I agree that the interaction does not *have* to be with their biological parents, but except in extreme cases children do bond with their biological parents first. >Saying that separating a child from their biological parents is much >more traumatic than any crime the parents could commit against the child, >is just wishful thinking by abusive parents.
Separating children from the caregiver they know and love *is* traumatic and abusive when the child has an emotional bond to that person. It doesn’t matter if the caregiver is the biological parent. It matters if the child has bonded to that caregiver. Witness the extreme case of children torn from an adoptive parent by reclamation by the biological parent. In that case, the trauma is caused because the child is torn from a loving adoptive home. It does not matter how good the biological parent might be, the trauma of separation from the only caregiver the child has known and the one he loves is severe. >Kids can get more than enough of their biological parents through >supervised visitation, when their biological parents demonstrate they >want to treat the kids like a doormat.
Eric, how many foster children who have been abused have you actually spoken to and listened to? When abuse is severe and the parent cannot or will not change, certainly removal is justified. When therapists and other adults try to control a child into hating his parents, it is no more acceptable to me than it is when a parent is controlling. Especially with older children want removal from a home should come *only* with their consent and their desire, not at the whim of the government or an outside adult. In many cases, the parent loves the child and will make changes once s/he is helped to do so. People who are motivated by love can and do change in ways that will allow the family to be kept intact. You advocate children having control of their own lives and this too must be their decision to make even if we don’t like their parents or their choice unless they are in danger of losing life and limb. Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown
Response:
"toto" <nob…@xxozxx.com> wrote in message
news:v677et41pbdkiiucrepvo7tsogmd0q2q5l@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Sun, 22 Apr 2001 19:26:07 -0500, "bobb" <BOB…@ix.netcom.com> > wrote: > >"toto" <nob…@xxozxx.com> wrote in message > >news:mra6et01hcrg27119rob8s7pqr3dda45ui@4ax.com… > >> On Sun, 22 Apr 2001 17:51:20 GMT, Eric Cordian > >> <e…@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote: > >> >In alt.activism.children toto <nob…@xxozxx.com> wrote: > >> >> It doesn’t make sense, > >> >> but it will continue unless we begin to find ways to help natural > >> >> parents who are stressed deal with children who have problems > >> >Every notice how Ms. Sacks always describes parents as "stressed out" and > >> >children as the ones with "problems." > >> >I wonder if we’ll ever see a post where the kids are stressed out because > >> >the parents have problems. Fat chance I know, but hope springs eternal. > >> Actually, Eric, parents do have problems that create stress in > >> children, I agree. > >> My agreement with you on that point, however, does not mean that I > >> believe that taking children away from parents they already are > >> bonded to and love is the solution to that problem. This solution > >> often creates children who are *more* stressed, not less so. > >> As a society, we have to help parents who have problems to learn how > >> to parent in ways that work for the children. If you think that > >> the government can *make* parents love and nurture their children, > >> you are simply foolish, imo. Parents love their kids, but often > >> they do not know how to nurture them. They take out their own > >> stresses and problems on the children. We have to deal with the > >> adult stresses in order to allow them to become better parents. > >> Dorothy > >> There is no sound, no cry in all the world > >> that can be heard unless someone listens .. > >> source unknown > >Parents don’t alway love their children. "nuff said. > Not always, but most do, Bobb. > Unwanted children are a problem, but not one that can be solved > by having the government raise them, imo. The best cure for > unwanted children would be changing our attitudes toward sex > and birth control so that it was *normal* for anyone who has sex > and does not want a child to use the best birth control available > to them without feeling weird about it. > >CPS removed or had 53,000 kids in foster care last year…. a large majority > >needlessly. > Again you offer an assertion that *the majority* of removals were > needless with no proof of that assertion. > I agree that there are many needless removals, but I don’t buy *the > majority* without hard evidence.
I doubt even then, you’d beleive it. I’m most certain you find a rationalization. > >The lack of homes is really ficticious… there are simply too > >many kids removed unnecessarily.
As I mentioned in the above posts… the courts are recognizing that a majority… yes .. and majority of kids are being removed unnecessairly. > Really? You have homes for all kids who are currently removed?
That sounds a bit snotty, Dorothy. I didn’t say I had home for all the kids. There are homes available… contrary to your belief… and there would be many more homes for those who really need a place, if other kids weren’t taken from their own homes needlessly. > >I also know of foster parents wanting kids.. that have room and won’t get > >a kid unless certain criteria is met… > Because? Are these particular foster parents untrained? Unable to > deal with problem children? Have they signed up for a limited kind > of licensing? > >most usually a kid without problems. DCFS (and I hate to defend them) must > >find placements for the unmanagable and disruptive kids. > Yes, agreed and MOST victims of abuse will be disruptive at least > and many will be unmanagable without specialized knowledge.
I didnt say those who were disruptive and unmanageable had been abused in any way. Wrong conclusion! Many who are removed do not want to stay in foster care.. they want to go home where they were loved and cared for. There are many more kids who are removed because of ‘neglect’.. more so even than abuse. Neglect..can be many things… including being poor… but still loved and cared for. Actually, most all the kids I had were physically and/or sexually abused over long periods of time. None were disruptive or unmanganable… for the most part the were regular kids. In fact, I took them off all medication… much to the initial horror of a few caseworkers… but they did agree to let me try. I specifically deal with ’specialized care" as do the foster parents I mentioned above… and they’re probably still waiting for kids. Not one kid left my house for another foster home… and their average length of stay was about 7 years. Two of my oldest now have two and three kids of their own and doing quite well. > >The problem is letting parents be parents in the first place … not the > >government. > Again we agree that parents should be *allowed* to be parents. The > problem though is in protecting children’s right not to be abused > while allowing that and protecting the rights of adults who are > accused as well. It is just not a simple and easy thing.
You seemed caught up in this thing about abuse… abuse… even sexual abuse that you focus on … is quite small in relation to the kids being removed from their home. for other reason. Investigations by child protective services (CPS) agencies in all States determined that approximately 903,000 children were victims of child maltreatment in 1998. In 1998, CPS agencies investigated nearly 3 million reports alleging the maltreatment of children. More than half (approximately 53 percent) of all reports alleging maltreatment came from professionals, including educators, law enforcement and justice officials, medical and mental health professionals, social service professionals and child care providers. The remaining 47 percent of reports were submitted by nonprofessionals, including parents, other relatives, alleged victims, and community members. More children suffer neglect than any other form of maltreatment. Investigations determined that about 53 percent of victims in 1998 suffered neglect, 22 percent physical abuse, 12 percent sexual abuse, 6 percent emotional maltreatment, 2 percent medical neglect, and 25 percent other forms of maltreatment. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >If the govenment has a role is should be reserved for those who > >really need assistance. > >Bobb > See my other post referencing this website about reforming the > system > http://www.rppi.org/socialservices/ps262.html > Dorothy > There is no sound, no cry in all the world > that can be heard unless someone listens .. > source unknown
Response:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:33:36 GMT, "Greg Hanson" <gree…@hotmail.com> wrote: >Florida study proved that a baby is actually better off staying with a >"Crack Head" mother, than being removed by CPS.
Please site a URL or print reference so those interested can look at this study. My background is in math and I have rarely seen a social science study that *proves* cause and effect and I have not been impressed by the statistical work in these studies even when I agree with their conclusions as I do in the case of the spanking studies. Please reference the full study, not an abstract if possible. Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown
Response:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 07:45:55 GMT, "Greg Hanson" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<gree…@hotmail.com> wrote: >They got off light which is plainly wrong. >Real parents have gotten far worse for far less. >On the other hand, this appeal claim sounds just >like the CPS I’ve come to know. >Withholding information, stonewalling, surprise and >fear. Same tactics Spanish Inquisition used. >Question: How could they even remotely have >been inadequately notified of the charges against >them? >—————————————————– >Article: "In their appeal, the Everses argued that their > convictions should be erased because they were not > adequately notified of the charges against them to > properly prepare their defense. > (Appeal court denied) > "Because defendants possessed the essential > information to procure witnesses, to prepare their > defense and to avoid surprise, the trial court properly > denied their motions," Appellate Judge Jose Marquez > wrote in the court’s unpublished opinion, which was > released late last week.
They could be inadequately notified in the same way that parents have been inadequately notified of charges against them. The same standard must apply whether the person charged is a parent, a foster parent, a social worker or even a lawyer, it seems to me. I don’t know whether or not this was true in this case, the judge says it is not and denied the motion, but certainly it *could* have been the case. Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown
Response:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 08:41:06 GMT, "Greg Hanson" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<gree…@hotmail.com> wrote: >toto >> I agree that there are many needless removals, but I don’t buy *the >> majority* without hard evidence. >Like what? CPS workers who get fired for telling their supervisor >that there are no grounds for removal? Go read the DHHS website >agency-speak for hours, only to get to the X’d out numbers on the >national chart. What do you need for proof? >Is a US Supreme Court decision good enough? Wallis v Escondido >An INSTITUTIONALIZED mental patient tells a delusional story >that was completely groundless, kids removed. Sex Abuse exam >(legalized rape) performed even though even the raving lunatic did >not claim there was SEXUAL abuse. >Don’t tell me it’s just an anecdote.
The problem is that it is anecdotal and I am sure I can match you on cases I know of where children were returned and then beaten to death or severely injured. >There are way too many similar cases.
Statistics, please, not anecdotals, though I believe CPS needs reforms, you can’t convince people using this kind of faulty data and rhetoric. >A "preponderance of evidence" in CPS terminology.
That term has been around much longer that CAPTA and applies to some court cases as well as CPS >> >most usually a kid without problems. DCFS (and I hate to defend them) >> >must find placements for the unmanagable and disruptive kids. >> Yes, agreed and MOST victims of abuse will be disruptive at least >> and many will be unmanagable without specialized knowledge. >Beware: Any normal kid can be labeled "unmanageable and disruptive".
Kids who have been abused, however, often are *unmanageable and disruptive* because of the abuses. How many kids like this have *you* worked with. I know some of them personally. They are angry at the world especially at their parents, perhaps, but often kids who are bullied (whether this is by peers or parents) act aggressively. When parents are abusive, they teach kids that violence is ok and the kids may follow in their footsteps and try to abuse and bully others. They may also turn too passive (these are the kids we tend to miss). But in all cases, they need special care. >Teachers, Social Workers and Foster Parents tend to like "manageable" kids.
Perhaps some teachers like *manageable* kids, but for the teachers I know, they would much rather help children to become *manageable* in school without drugs. >So RITALEN gets prescribed.
Teachers cannot prescribe and are not allowed to reccommend treatment for AD/ADHD. That’s another myth. Teachers may be involved in checklists of symptoms at school. They may reccommend testing (but not any specific diagnosis) and it is up the parents to get the child tested by the appropriate medical authorities. There are misdiagnoses in both directions because the child must really be seen by a specialist, not just a pediatrician unless the pediatrician has a great deal of experience in diagnosing this condition. Children lose when they are not given appropriate help whether they are given meds that should not be prescribed or not given meds that could help. My ex-sil was one of those who believes he was on Ritalin incorrectly, but it was his *mom* who insisted, not the school. He was reacting to his dad’s leaving the family and the divorce and so the prescription was entirely inappropriate for him, imo and in his. OTOH, I also know of adults who say that the medication helped them tremendously to cope as well. >Nice little state zombies….
Ritalin makes zombies out of kids who are NOT truly AD/ADHD, that’s true, but that is no reason to go off half-cocked and stop its use when the use is appropriate and correct as it is when the diagnosis is properly done. >Did you ever see "One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest"?
Yes. >Having character can be understood by a parent, but less likely >understood by a social worker or foster.
More fool you when you say that. I am both a parent and a teacher and understand quite well what character is. I *like* the kids who can and do stand up for themselves in terms of all adults, but as adults, we must model good character. We must walk the walk and not just talk the talk. Social workers and foster parents are good and bad, just as parents can be good or bad. Generalizations do your cause very little good, imho. Once again, see the post I made about the reforms I would advocate to the system. No system is perfect and this one is very flawed right now, but scrapping it in favor of *nothing* is not an answer. We as a society must find a balance that protects children’s rights and adult’s rights and helps those families that need help. Dorothy Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown
Response:
"Eric Cordian" > Furthermore, kids grow up just fine as long as they have positive > interaction with adults. There is no requirement that those adults > be their biological parents.
Why did you post this under this subject line??" > Saying that separating a child from their biological parents is much > more traumatic than any crime the parents could commit against the child, > is just wishful thinking by abusive parents.
Florida study proved that a baby is actually better off staying with a "Crack Head" mother, than being removed by CPS. > Kids can get more than enough of their biological parents through > supervised visitation, when their biological parents demonstrate they > want to treat the kids like a doormat.
"Demonstrate" to whose standard? New Jersey CPS (forged signatures) Illinois DCYF (Federal Judge declared system unconstitutional) Penna DCYF (suecps.com/amended.htm) especially # 64 to 67 These agencies are wiping their feet on our children.
Response:
toto > I agree that there are many needless removals, but I don’t buy *the > majority* without hard evidence.
Like what? CPS workers who get fired for telling their supervisor that there are no grounds for removal? Go read the DHHS website agency-speak for hours, only to get to the X’d out numbers on the national chart. What do you need for proof? Is a US Supreme Court decision good enough? Wallis v Escondido An INSTITUTIONALIZED mental patient tells a delusional story that was completely groundless, kids removed. Sex Abuse exam (legalized rape) performed even though even the raving lunatic did not claim there was SEXUAL abuse. Don’t tell me it’s just an anecdote. There are way too many similar cases. A "preponderance of evidence" in CPS terminology. > >most usually a kid without problems. DCFS (and I hate to defend them) must > >find placements for the unmanagable and disruptive kids. > Yes, agreed and MOST victims of abuse will be disruptive at least > and many will be unmanagable without specialized knowledge.
Beware: Any normal kid can be labeled "unmanageable and disruptive". Teachers, Social Workers and Foster Parents tend to like "manageable" kids. So RITALEN gets prescribed. Nice little state zombies…. Did you ever see "One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest"? Having character can be understood by a parent, but less likely understood by a social worker or foster.
Response:
In alt.activism.children Ray Da Capo <h…@there.com> wrote: > On Sun, 22 Apr 2001 17:51:20 GMT, Eric Cordian > <e…@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote: >>Every notice how Ms. Sacks always describes parents as "stressed out" and >>children as the ones with "problems." > ‘Always’ is almost always wrong. Certainly is in this case.
In my experience, I’ve never seen her do otherwise. — Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
Response:
In alt.activism.children bobb <BOB…@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > Parents don’t alway love their children. "nuff said.
Furthermore, kids grow up just fine as long as they have positive interaction with adults. There is no requirement that those adults be their biological parents. Saying that separating a child from their biological parents is much more traumatic than any crime the parents could commit against the child, is just wishful thinking by abusive parents. Kids can get more than enough of their biological parents through supervised visitation, when their biological parents demonstrate they want to treat the kids like a doormat. — Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
Response:
On Sun, 22 Apr 2001 19:26:07 -0500, "bobb" <BOB…@ix.netcom.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"toto" <nob…@xxozxx.com> wrote in message >news:mra6et01hcrg27119rob8s7pqr3dda45ui@4ax.com… >> On Sun, 22 Apr 2001 17:51:20 GMT, Eric Cordian >> <e…@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote: >> >In alt.activism.children toto <nob…@xxozxx.com> wrote: >> >> It doesn’t make sense, >> >> but it will continue unless we begin to find ways to help natural >> >> parents who are stressed deal with children who have problems >> >Every notice how Ms. Sacks always describes parents as "stressed out" and >> >children as the ones with "problems." >> >I wonder if we’ll ever see a post where the kids are stressed out because >> >the parents have problems. Fat chance I know, but hope springs eternal. >> Actually, Eric, parents do have problems that create stress in >> children, I agree. >> My agreement with you on that point, however, does not mean that I >> believe that taking children away from parents they already are >> bonded to and love is the solution to that problem. This solution >> often creates children who are *more* stressed, not less so. >> As a society, we have to help parents who have problems to learn how >> to parent in ways that work for the children. If you think that >> the government can *make* parents love and nurture their children, >> you are simply foolish, imo. Parents love their kids, but often >> they do not know how to nurture them. They take out their own >> stresses and problems on the children. We have to deal with the >> adult stresses in order to allow them to become better parents. >> Dorothy >> There is no sound, no cry in all the world >> that can be heard unless someone listens .. >> source unknown >Parents don’t alway love their children. "nuff said.
Not always, but most do, Bobb. Unwanted children are a problem, but not one that can be solved by having the government raise them, imo. The best cure for unwanted children would be changing our attitudes toward sex and birth control so that it was *normal* for anyone who has sex and does not want a child to use the best birth control available to them without feeling weird about it. >CPS removed or had 53,000 kids in foster care last year…. a large majority >needlessly.
Again you offer an assertion that *the majority* of removals were needless with no proof of that assertion. I agree that there are many needless removals, but I don’t buy *the majority* without hard evidence. >The lack of homes is really ficticious… there are simply too >many kids removed unnecessarily.
Really? You have homes for all kids who are currently removed? >I also know of foster parents wanting kids.. that have room and won’t get >a kid unless certain criteria is met…
Because? Are these particular foster parents untrained? Unable to deal with problem children? Have they signed up for a limited kind of licensing? >most usually a kid without problems. DCFS (and I hate to defend them) must >find placements for the unmanagable and disruptive kids.
Yes, agreed and MOST victims of abuse will be disruptive at least and many will be unmanagable without specialized knowledge. >The problem is letting parents be parents in the first place … not the >government.
Again we agree that parents should be *allowed* to be parents. The problem though is in protecting children’s right not to be abused while allowing that and protecting the rights of adults who are accused as well. It is just not a simple and easy thing. >If the govenment has a role is should be reserved for those who >really need assistance. >Bobb
See my other post referencing this website about reforming the system http://www.rppi.org/socialservices/ps262.html Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown
Response:
On Sun, 22 Apr 2001 17:51:20 GMT, Eric Cordian <e…@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote: >In alt.activism.children toto <nob…@xxozxx.com> wrote: >> It doesn’t make sense, >> but it will continue unless we begin to find ways to help natural >> parents who are stressed deal with children who have problems >Every notice how Ms. Sacks always describes parents as "stressed out" and >children as the ones with "problems." >I wonder if we’ll ever see a post where the kids are stressed out because >the parents have problems. Fat chance I know, but hope springs eternal.
Actually, Eric, parents do have problems that create stress in children, I agree. My agreement with you on that point, however, does not mean that I believe that taking children away from parents they already are bonded to and love is the solution to that problem. This solution often creates children who are *more* stressed, not less so. As a society, we have to help parents who have problems to learn how to parent in ways that work for the children. If you think that the government can *make* parents love and nurture their children, you are simply foolish, imo. Parents love their kids, but often they do not know how to nurture them. They take out their own stresses and problems on the children. We have to deal with the adult stresses in order to allow them to become better parents. Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown
Response:
"toto" <nob…@xxozxx.com> wrote in message
news:mra6et01hcrg27119rob8s7pqr3dda45ui@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Sun, 22 Apr 2001 17:51:20 GMT, Eric Cordian > <e…@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote: > >In alt.activism.children toto <nob…@xxozxx.com> wrote: > >> It doesn’t make sense, > >> but it will continue unless we begin to find ways to help natural > >> parents who are stressed deal with children who have problems > >Every notice how Ms. Sacks always describes parents as "stressed out" and > >children as the ones with "problems." > >I wonder if we’ll ever see a post where the kids are stressed out because > >the parents have problems. Fat chance I know, but hope springs eternal. > Actually, Eric, parents do have problems that create stress in > children, I agree. > My agreement with you on that point, however, does not mean that I > believe that taking children away from parents they already are > bonded to and love is the solution to that problem. This solution > often creates children who are *more* stressed, not less so. > As a society, we have to help parents who have problems to learn how > to parent in ways that work for the children. If you think that > the government can *make* parents love and nurture their children, > you are simply foolish, imo. Parents love their kids, but often > they do not know how to nurture them. They take out their own > stresses and problems on the children. We have to deal with the > adult stresses in order to allow them to become better parents. > Dorothy > There is no sound, no cry in all the world > that can be heard unless someone listens .. > source unknown
Parents don’t alway love their children. "nuff said. CPS removed or had 53,000 kids in foster care last year…. a large majority needlessly. The lack of homes is really ficticious… there are simply too many kids removed unnecessarily. I also know of foster parents wanting kids.. that have room and won’t get a kid unless certain criteria is met… most usually a kid without problems. DCFS (and I hate to defend them) must find placements for the unmanagable and disruptive kids. The problem is letting parents be parents in the first place … not the government. If the govenment has a role is should be reserved for those who really need assistance. Bobb
Response:
In alt.activism.children toto <nob…@xxozxx.com> wrote: > It doesn’t make sense, > but it will continue unless we begin to find ways to help natural > parents who are stressed deal with children who have problems
Every notice how Ms. Sacks always describes parents as "stressed out" and children as the ones with "problems." I wonder if we’ll ever see a post where the kids are stressed out because the parents have problems. Fat chance I know, but hope springs eternal. — Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
Response:
On Sun, 22 Apr 2001 10:28:29 -0500, "bobb" <BOB…@ix.netcom.com> wrote: >It doesnt even makes sense to place three foster children in home that >already has seven kids… unless they’re doing it for the money.
Unfortunately, this is a function of the lack of homes willing to do foster care, especially for older children who have problems that many adults do not know how to cope with. It doesn’t make sense, but it will continue unless we begin to find ways to help natural parents who are stressed deal with children who have problems and/or begin to stress birth control to the point where parents do not have unwanted children in the first place. It will take a huge change in our society to fix this problem Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown
Response:
"Fight CPS And Win" <Fight_CPS_And_…@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:te541qo76n3ccf@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> March 29, 2001 > By Charles Ashby > Herald Capitol Correspondent > DENVER – The Colorado Court of Appeals has upheld the convictions of Dennis > and Sandra Evers for their role in the death of their 6-year-old adopted > daughter. > In May 1999, a La Plata County jury found the Everses guilty of negligent > child abuse resulting in serious physical injury to their adopted daughter, > Roberta. Dennis Evers was also convicted of tampering with physical > evidence. > [.....] > Dennis Evers was sentenced to 190 days in La Plata County Jail; Sandra Evers > to 90. They served their sentences last year, and are now serving six years > of probation. > [.....] > Roberta Evers died in June 1998 from choking on her own vomit. During the > following trial, prosecutors said the child’s hands and feet were tied to > the bed, and that Roberta Evers was unable to turn over to avoid choking. > The Everses have seven children of their own and three adopted children. The > family had cared for nearly 60 foster children before Roberta’s death. Under > Colorado law, the Everses are no longer are allowed to take in foster > children. > Read the rest here: > http://www.durangoherald.com/1news4202.htm > [If these had been natural parents instead of fost-adopters, don't you think > the penalty would have been more severe? At the very least, they would have > had every other child removed from the home.] > — > Fight CPS And Win > http://www.geocities.com/clearwater19/cws
It doesnt even makes sense to place three foster children in home that already has seven kids… unless they’re doing it for the money. A biological parent would have suffered a much greater wrath for just tieing a kid to the bed…. and one also has to wonder why he was vomiting as well. Sick, punched in the stomach, something poured down his throat? Even tied to the bed … one would not expect to vomit. Bobb
Response:
March 29, 2001 By Charles Ashby Herald Capitol Correspondent DENVER – The Colorado Court of Appeals has upheld the convictions of Dennis and Sandra Evers for their role in the death of their 6-year-old adopted daughter. In May 1999, a La Plata County jury found the Everses guilty of negligent child abuse resulting in serious physical injury to their adopted daughter, Roberta. Dennis Evers was also convicted of tampering with physical evidence. [.....] Dennis Evers was sentenced to 190 days in La Plata County Jail; Sandra Evers to 90. They served their sentences last year, and are now serving six years of probation. [.....] Roberta Evers died in June 1998 from choking on her own vomit. During the following trial, prosecutors said the child’s hands and feet were tied to the bed, and that Roberta Evers was unable to turn over to avoid choking. The Everses have seven children of their own and three adopted children. The family had cared for nearly 60 foster children before Roberta’s death. Under Colorado law, the Everses are no longer are allowed to take in foster children. Read the rest here: http://www.durangoherald.com/1news4202.htm [If these had been natural parents instead of fost-adopters, don't you think the penalty would have been more severe? At the very least, they would have had every other child removed from the home.] — Fight CPS And Win http://www.geocities.com/clearwater19/cws
Response:
Question:
One good aspect of JW’s is a new surgical procedure called bloodless surgery. It takes the patients own blood, and returns it to them in a filtered state. Many operations that would have been fatal without blood products, are now common practice. One out of the fear of disease transmission, but the primary precipitous was to find a way to provide life saving cardiac procedures, and hip fracture reduction surgery to the JW community. Phil
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Most people in the medical have done handstands for years for Jehovah’s Witnesses and their ever-changing blood practices. That is a good thing, It give the medical community a goal. Witnesses, on the other hand, are very quick to be paranoid around the medical community because of the horror stories that they share around with each other and because of the total inflexibility that they are taught in meetings at their Kingdom Halls. By all means please share these horror stories. I have yet to hear one. Why have you put alt.activism.children in the reply headers on this post? Your logic baffles. And your headers have been snipped. The orinal thread dealt with JW familes, and thier children. And the headers has been added.
Response:
And? can you tell us, what stories were these? Since I spent most of my adult life in and out of hospitals, you have peeked my curiosity.
Why? You’ll deny they happened or post something completely irrelevant or ask an assinine question to change the subject. Thanks for playing Tinks
Response:
And? can you tell us, what stories were these? Since I spent most of my adult life in and out of hospitals, you have peeked my curiosity. Why? You’ll deny they happened or post something completely irrelevant or ask an assinine question to change the subject.
Not at all, people are people, and even non jw-s have hospital horror stories. could it be, that..uhh…no story exist? — Please do not reply to this usenet post. But if you do, you do so at your own risk And you may be mentally unstable. Instead send your reply to remove "nospam" from the e- mail address. If you are sincerely Interested you may subscribe to the following private e-mail lists, where a duplicate of this thread continues:
Response:
Most people in the medical have done handstands for years for Jehovah’s Witnesses and their ever-changing blood practices. That is a good thing, It give the medical community a goal. LOL!! You take a lot of credit and disregard the lives lost by the rigdity of the WTS and the lack of knowledge about blood (or even disinformation!).
If avegetarian was told by his doctor that he must eat meat or take protein supplements, and he refuses to do so and eventually die. who fault is it? was it his choice, or is the vegetarian life style an evil one because he died? Again, you need to get out more Jabby. When I was in the hospital with my sister, there were many witnesses that specifically came to tell me what to "watch out for" as far as the "dirty tricks that hospitals pull" regarding blood. I had to ask the blood liason committe to keep one whacked out old man away from me because he was telling me horrific stories while my sister was in the OR.
And? can you tell us, what stories were these? Since I spent most of my adult life in and out of hospitals, you have peeked my curiosity. — Please do not reply to this usenet post. But if you do, you do so at your own risk And you may be mentally unstable. Instead send your reply to remove "nospam" from the e- mail address. If you are sincerely Interested you may subscribe to the following private e-mail lists, where a duplicate of this thread continues:
Response:
Most people in the medical have done handstands for years for Jehovah’s Witnesses and their ever-changing blood practices.
That is a good thing, It give the medical community a goal. Witnesses, on the other hand, are very quick to be paranoid around the medical community because of the horror stories that they share around with each other and because of the total inflexibility that they are taught in meetings at their Kingdom Halls.
By all means please share these horror stories. I have yet to hear one. Why have you put alt.activism.children in the reply headers on this post? Your logic baffles. And your headers have been snipped.
The orinal thread dealt with JW familes, and thier children. And the headers has been added.
Response:
Question:
What follows are two distinctly different takes on the alleged "violence" against a Project Inform (PI) employee during ACT UP San Francisco’s recent disruption of a so-called Structured Treatment Interruption forum: one from the very active imagination of PI front man Martin Delaney and the other from Katie Szymanski, reporter for the B.A.R.
Both Delaney and Katie S derive their incomes from the pharmaceutical industry: Delaney for direct pimping and Katie for running the Bar Pharmaceutical Cathouse. Gee, for someone so frightened by a few HIV positive ACT UP activists, Marty sure seems like a mad man with an ax to grind.
Little Man Marty is not only HIV-negative, but admits a morphine habit while fantasizing for the past 16 years about having some fatal disease he has postulated to be fatal "any minute now"… Could it be the message, rather than the messengers,
Yup, that’s Marty alright — he focuses on the messengers, NEVER on the message! that he seeks to restrain by manipulating the legal system?
Manipulator Marty manipulating the system? Now who would believe that? Civil hearing resumes Tuesday, July 25 at 9:00 a.m. in courtroom 502 at 400 McAllister Street in San Francisco.
Dave, why don’t you subpoena Marty to testify about his false accusations when he constructed that story a few years ago for public consumption (remember the girl scout bashing story?) No different that the constructed story that is presently wasting the legal system’s time and money. Just put Delaney on the stand and under oath and watch his borderline personality have a meltdown… David Pasquarelli ACT UP SF =====
It is worth mentioning that POZ Magazine is a trade rag for the pharmaceutical industry… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -POZ Magazine August 2000 My Turn Arch Enemies —– The other ACT UP has declared war on the entire AIDS community. Martin Delaney, a veteran of their violence, is mad as hell and he’s not going to take it anymore. The April meeting was co-sponsored by Project Inform (PI), the group I founded, and Survive AIDS, previously known as ACT UP/Golden Gate until they changed their name to avoid confusion with the notorious rowdies of ACT UP/San Francisco. Some 100 HIVers had crowded into the small community-meeting space, sucking up info about Strategic Treatment Interruptions (STIs). Suddenly, a commotion exploded in back. In a flash of waving signs, anyone familiar with the AIDS scene in our fair city knew what to expect; ACT UP/SF had arrived, announcing that "AIDS is over" and condemning those of us still working in the field as "murderers, liars and cheats." Then, shrieking like howler monkeys, they marched Brownshirt-style up to the speakers’ table and began throwing fistfuls of large pills in our faces. San Francisco long ago lost patience with these clowns, who have violently disrupted AIDS events for almost a decade. Their escapades include pouring feces-and-urine-laden cat litter on San Francisco AIDS Foundation head Pat Christen, launching attacks on the Stop AIDS Project (a gay HIV prevention group), even crashing PI’s annual fundraising dinner and overturning tables of PWAs. And they routinely ambush people on the street (often women from our staff), shoving, shouting and spitting. Such big, brave boys! We were all fed up, and at the STI forum the audience was ready to rip off heads. When PI’s Judy Leahy tried to intervene, she was knocked to the ground by David Pasquarelli, the group’s self-appointed intellectual kingpin. Though he insists that the event didn’t happen, photos, hospital records and police reports say otherwise. In May, charges of misdemeanor trespassing were finally brought against him and three other ACT UP/SFers; a restraining order was also issued, requiring them to stay 100 yards away from any PI staff. Has San Francisco gone nuts? Or is it just a few troublemakers who have taken root? Virtually all other AIDS activists have condemned violence, especially against PWAs. It’s extremely unsettling to find oneself the object of ACT UP/SF’s bloodcurdling hatred, as it’s hard to know when they or their hangers-on might pull out a weapon in a frenzy. It makes you wonder: if they truly believe their enemies are murderers, where will the violence end? What motivates their terrorist tactics? They blame it on a general "censorship" of their "HIV-is-harmless, pharmaceutical-drugs-are-poison" mantra. This dangerous dalliance with Peter Duesberg has led them to collaborate with the likes of congress member Tom "Kill the Ryan White Act" Coburn and attack the "fraud" of funding for ASOs and research. How any sane mind can take such steps while thinking itself the savior of the gay community is a mystery. That science finds no merit in their HIV denial, that their AIDS-is-a-hoax position can only lead to more infections, that their "don’t get tested, don’t take treatment" message results in people getting sick and dying — none of this seems to matter to them. Like many HIV denialists, they confuse the question of whether HIV causes AIDS with whether it has caused AIDS in themselves yet. Their HIV — several claim to be positive — may be behind their denial and their promotion of barebacking, reopening the baths and other dubious pursuits. The May 4 Bay Area reporter announced that ACT UP/SF had purchased a corner-storefront, four-apartment building, financed by one Robert Leppo, who also contributes to Republican Party campaigns. A small ACT UP chapter buying real estate on Market Street in the Castro? While not illegal, it’s at least hypocritical for a group that condemns everyone else as "AIDS Inc." and claims the rest of us are getting rich off the epidemic. No other activist group owns an $800,000 property in a trust in its employees’ names. But ACT UP/SF’s antics aren’t about activism or AIDS. Should these bullies spit on you, you wouldn’t think they deserved tolerance. There’s room for different opinions, strategies, even beliefs — but not for violence against PWAs, disruption of others’ work and homophobia (one of their war cries that night was "Die, you faggots!"). What PWAs need is a safe space and respect — exactly what we’ve fought to get from the public and the government. It’s ironic — and very sad — to close the second decade of AIDS defending ourselves against the enemy within when we’ve come so far in taming the enemy without. (Inset: ACT UP San Francisco "AIDS is Over!" sticker with the caption — Stick ‘Em Up: ACT UP/SF charges that AIDS is a fraud; now the group faces its own criminal charges.) —– Bay Area Reporter July 20, 2000 ACT UP/SF hearing on restraining orders continues By Katie Szymanski The tribulations — and trials — of our hometown AIDS activism rift shall proceed as usual at the civil courthouse when Project Inform’s quest to secure restraining orders against ACT UP/San Francisco continues this Tuesday, July 25. Project Inform’s case is based on years of harassment, according to its staff, but culminated with the April 17 demonstration of ACT UP members David Pasquarelli, Michael Bellefountaine, Andrea Lindsay, Ronnie Burk, Todd Swindell and others, who stormed a strategic treatment interruption forum and allegedly assaulted and threw hard pills at participants. Project Inform’s Judy Leahy injured her knee during the mayhem, reportedly after Pasquarelli pushed her. The hearings have lasted more than a month at this point, due to prolonged questioning and subsequent courtroom scheduling conflicts, and have included everything from the description of tedious, irrelevant details to the high drama of Pasquarelli and Bellefountaine being arrested mid-testimony. The pair were apprehended June 30 by police on misdemeanor charges stemming from the April 17 incident, and ACT UP/SF blamed Project Inform for arranging the arrest in order to interfere with the case. Project Inform’s attorneys denied the charges. ACT UP members have repeatedly disputed allegations of violence while on the stand, and their attorney even somehow got Leahy to admit that she did not actually see Pasquarelli shove her before she fell (she did, however, fall in a direction that seems to exclude the possibility that someone was accidentally pushed into her). Describing their tactics as "performance art," ACT UP members also rejected the idea that they threw any pills, although they do admit seeing them fly through the air. If the restraining orders are granted, the ruling could effectively bar ACT UP/SF from any public place — including educational forums and open meetings — where Project Inform staff members are present. —– Want to respond? Send letters to: POZ Magazine 349 West 12th Street New York, NY 10014 Phone: (212) 242-2163 Fax: (212) 675-8505 and Bay Area Reporter 395 Ninth Street San Francisco, CA 94103 Phone: (415) 861-5019 Fax: (415) 861-6701 ===== ACT UP San Francisco 1884 Market Street * San Francisco, CA 94102 Phone: (415) 864-6686 * Fax: (415) 864-6687 * www.actupsf.com
Response:
What follows are two distinctly different takes on the alleged "violence" against a Project Inform (PI) employee during ACT UP San Francisco’s recent disruption of a so-called Structured Treatment Interruption forum: one from the very active imagination of PI front man Martin Delaney and the other from Katie Szymanski, reporter for the B.A.R. Gee, for someone so frightened by a few HIV positive ACT UP activists, Marty sure seems like a mad man with an ax to grind. Could it be the message, rather than the messengers, that he seeks to restrain by manipulating the legal system? Civil hearing resumes Tuesday, July 25 at 9:00 a.m. in courtroom 502 at 400 McAllister Street in San Francisco. David Pasquarelli ACT UP SF ===== POZ Magazine August 2000 My Turn Arch Enemies —– The other ACT UP has declared war on the entire AIDS community. Martin Delaney, a veteran of their violence, is mad as hell and he’s not going to take it anymore. The April meeting was co-sponsored by Project Inform (PI), the group I founded, and Survive AIDS, previously known as ACT UP/Golden Gate until they changed their name to avoid confusion with the notorious rowdies of ACT UP/San Francisco. Some 100 HIVers had crowded into the small community-meeting space, sucking up info about Strategic Treatment Interruptions (STIs). Suddenly, a commotion exploded in back. In a flash of waving signs, anyone familiar with the AIDS scene in our fair city knew what to expect; ACT UP/SF had arrived, announcing that "AIDS is over" and condemning those of us still working in the field as "murderers, liars and cheats." Then, shrieking like howler monkeys, they marched Brownshirt-style up to the speakers’ table and began throwing fistfuls of large pills in our faces. San Francisco long ago lost patience with these clowns, who have violently disrupted AIDS events for almost a decade. Their escapades include pouring feces-and-urine-laden cat litter on San Francisco AIDS Foundation head Pat Christen, launching attacks on the Stop AIDS Project (a gay HIV prevention group), even crashing PI’s annual fundraising dinner and overturning tables of PWAs. And they routinely ambush people on the street (often women from our staff), shoving, shouting and spitting. Such big, brave boys! We were all fed up, and at the STI forum the audience was ready to rip off heads. When PI’s Judy Leahy tried to intervene, she was knocked to the ground by David Pasquarelli, the group’s self-appointed intellectual kingpin. Though he insists that the event didn’t happen, photos, hospital records and police reports say otherwise. In May, charges of misdemeanor trespassing were finally brought against him and three other ACT UP/SFers; a restraining order was also issued, requiring them to stay 100 yards away from any PI staff. Has San Francisco gone nuts? Or is it just a few troublemakers who have taken root? Virtually all other AIDS activists have condemned violence, especially against PWAs. It’s extremely unsettling to find oneself the object of ACT UP/SF’s bloodcurdling hatred, as it’s hard to know when they or their hangers-on might pull out a weapon in a frenzy. It makes you wonder: if they truly believe their enemies are murderers, where will the violence end? What motivates their terrorist tactics? They blame it on a general "censorship" of their "HIV-is-harmless, pharmaceutical-drugs-are-poison" mantra. This dangerous dalliance with Peter Duesberg has led them to collaborate with the likes of congress member Tom "Kill the Ryan White Act" Coburn and attack the "fraud" of funding for ASOs and research. How any sane mind can take such steps while thinking itself the savior of the gay community is a mystery. That science finds no merit in their HIV denial, that their AIDS-is-a-hoax position can only lead to more infections, that their "don’t get tested, don’t take treatment" message results in people getting sick and dying — none of this seems to matter to them. Like many HIV denialists, they confuse the question of whether HIV causes AIDS with whether it has caused AIDS in themselves yet. Their HIV — several claim to be positive — may be behind their denial and their promotion of barebacking, reopening the baths and other dubious pursuits. The May 4 Bay Area reporter announced that ACT UP/SF had purchased a corner-storefront, four-apartment building, financed by one Robert Leppo, who also contributes to Republican Party campaigns. A small ACT UP chapter buying real estate on Market Street in the Castro? While not illegal, it’s at least hypocritical for a group that condemns everyone else as "AIDS Inc." and claims the rest of us are getting rich off the epidemic. No other activist group owns an $800,000 property in a trust in its employees’ names. But ACT UP/SF’s antics aren’t about activism or AIDS. Should these bullies spit on you, you wouldn’t think they deserved tolerance. There’s room for different opinions, strategies, even beliefs — but not for violence against PWAs, disruption of others’ work and homophobia (one of their war cries that night was "Die, you faggots!"). What PWAs need is a safe space and respect — exactly what we’ve fought to get from the public and the government. It’s ironic — and very sad — to close the second decade of AIDS defending ourselves against the enemy within when we’ve come so far in taming the enemy without. (Inset: ACT UP San Francisco "AIDS is Over!" sticker with the caption — Stick ‘Em Up: ACT UP/SF charges that AIDS is a fraud; now the group faces its own criminal charges.) —– Bay Area Reporter July 20, 2000 ACT UP/SF hearing on restraining orders continues By Katie Szymanski The tribulations — and trials — of our hometown AIDS activism rift shall proceed as usual at the civil courthouse when Project Inform’s quest to secure restraining orders against ACT UP/San Francisco continues this Tuesday, July 25. Project Inform’s case is based on years of harassment, according to its staff, but culminated with the April 17 demonstration of ACT UP members David Pasquarelli, Michael Bellefountaine, Andrea Lindsay, Ronnie Burk, Todd Swindell and others, who stormed a strategic treatment interruption forum and allegedly assaulted and threw hard pills at participants. Project Inform’s Judy Leahy injured her knee during the mayhem, reportedly after Pasquarelli pushed her. The hearings have lasted more than a month at this point, due to prolonged questioning and subsequent courtroom scheduling conflicts, and have included everything from the description of tedious, irrelevant details to the high drama of Pasquarelli and Bellefountaine being arrested mid-testimony. The pair were apprehended June 30 by police on misdemeanor charges stemming from the April 17 incident, and ACT UP/SF blamed Project Inform for arranging the arrest in order to interfere with the case. Project Inform’s attorneys denied the charges. ACT UP members have repeatedly disputed allegations of violence while on the stand, and their attorney even somehow got Leahy to admit that she did not actually see Pasquarelli shove her before she fell (she did, however, fall in a direction that seems to exclude the possibility that someone was accidentally pushed into her). Describing their tactics as "performance art," ACT UP members also rejected the idea that they threw any pills, although they do admit seeing them fly through the air. If the restraining orders are granted, the ruling could effectively bar ACT UP/SF from any public place — including educational forums and open meetings — where Project Inform staff members are present. —– Want to respond? Send letters to: POZ Magazine 349 West 12th Street New York, NY 10014 Phone: (212) 242-2163 Fax: (212) 675-8505 and Bay Area Reporter 395 Ninth Street San Francisco, CA 94103 Phone: (415) 861-5019 Fax: (415) 861-6701 ===== ACT UP San Francisco 1884 Market Street * San Francisco, CA 94102 Phone: (415) 864-6686 * Fax: (415) 864-6687 * www.actupsf.com
Response:
Question:
As for Matt Sharpe of Survive AIDS!, he called the ACT UP group a "small, right-wing faction of homophobic and AIDSphobic individuals,"
Sounds like a perfect description these bozo’s. — Gary Stein http://www.mischealthaids.org "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind- boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." (Gene Spafford)
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Unlike the Bay Area Reporter’s fictional account of ACT UP SF’s recent disruption of Project Deform’s Structured Treatment Interruption forum, the Bay Times presents a much more reality-based account. Funny — missing entirely is the misogyny, homophobia and violent attack of a Project Deform volunteer that Terry Beswick and Cynthia Laird of the BAR concocted out of thin air. BAR Publisher Bob Ross better watch it or he’s going to get sued. [DP] ===== San Francisco Bay Times April 27, 2000 Fireworks at Project Inform Community Forum By Ann Rostow A funny thing happened, not exactly on the way to the forum, but during the course of Project Inform’s April 17 public workshop on Structured Therapy Interruptions. The discussion, which focused on interrupting your protease inhibitor regime, was itself interrupted by a chaotic visit from the gang at ACT UP/SF, no longer to be confused with ACT UP/Golden Gate, because the latter has changed its name to Survive AIDS! in order to dispel any notion that the two groups are related. Survive AIDS! was, in fact, a co-sponsor of the April 17 event, which according to ACT UP/SF was yet another occasion to push the misleading theories that HIV causes AIDS, and HIV treatments prevent death. Speaking to the Bay Times, ACT UP’s Dave Pasquarelli acknowledged that a scuffle broke out at Project Inform, but he said he was not aware that anyone was injured. The melee, said Pasquarelli, was if anything a matter of self-defense. "If people assault us, we will fight back. We were attacked first, and we fought back." According to the contrarian activist, not only are the AIDS drugs the real killers in the epidemic, but AIDS community leaders who buy the assumptions of traditional science and who cozy up to drug companies are no worse than murderers themselves. "[Project Inform's] Martin Delaney," asserted Pasquarelli (without offering any particular proof), "needs to come clean about how much he is personally being paid by Glaxo Wellcome and Merck to downplay the physical side effects" of AIDS drugs. Delaney did not return calls at press time. While Pasquarelli calls himself an "AIDS realist," others call him and those who share his views "AIDS denialists," and see their demonstrations, violent protests and unusual theories as the real threat to coherent AIDS activism in San Francisco and elsewhere. "As a person living with HIV," said veteran activist Hank Wilson in a Project Inform statement, "it’s appalling that there has not been a more pronounced response by the political leadership in San Francisco to stop this group and the genocide they are perpetuating in our communities." As for Matt Sharpe of Survive AIDS!, he called the ACT UP group a "small, right-wing faction of homophobic and AIDSphobic individuals," and urged the city to "develop a policy zero tolerance for this pitiful, infantile group." Project Inform’s Brenda Lein, the moderator of the forum, said the ACT UP/SFers "are sowing the seeds of the future of the epidemic while attempting to divert those already ill from taking advantage of advances in therapy. It’s mind-boggling." AIDS, Pasquarelli rejoins, "is a sick fantasy of a profitable industry. AIDS is a scam. HIV does not cause AIDS and the AIDS drugs are poison." —– Want to respond? San Francisco Bay Times 3410 19th Street San Francisco, CA 94110 Phone: (415) 626-0260 Fax: (415) 626-0987 ===== ACT UP San Francisco 1884 Market Street * San Francisco, CA 94102 Phone: (415) 864-6686 * Fax: (415) 864-6687 * Web: www.actupsf.com
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Question:
Dear Friends, Following is a letter that will be sent to President Arzu about the Gerardi case. Please call your representatives and urge them to sign on, or if they already have, please call to thank them. Thanks for your ongoing concern and activism. October 21, 1999 "If they can kill a bishop, no one’s safe in this country." Guatemalan human rights activist Dear Colleague: We are deeply concerned that Guatemalan prosecutor Celvin Manolo Galindo was recently forced to flee his homeland because of death threats against him and members of his family. Mr. Galindo has been investigating last year’s brutal murder of Guatemalan Bishop Juan Jose Gerardi, the director of the Archodiocese human rights office. Only two days before his murder, Bishop Gerardi had presented to the Guatemalan people the Church’s landmark report, Never Again, an extensive compilation and analysis of the violence and human rights violations which occurred during the civil war. Published reports indicate that Mr. Galindo was nearing the completion of the investigation and that he was prepared to request that two members of the military be detained as suspects in the case. In the meantime, threats against him and his family intensified as the investigation moved toward a conclusion. Please join us in writing to President Arzu requesting that he take every possible step to assure that anyone who can contribute to the just and timely resolution of the Gerardi case is provided with whatever protection is necessary in order to assure that this case is resolved. Please e-mail or call Craig Powers at 5-5341 to cosign. Sincerely, Constance A. Morella, M.C. Nancy Pelosi, M.C. John Edward Porter, M.C. Tom Lantos, M.C. James P. McGovern, M.C. James A. Leach, M.C. Dear President Arzu: As Members of Congress who have supported the peace process in Guatemala and have supported your efforts to implement reforms called for in the peace accords, we have paid particularly close attention to the investigation of the murder of Bishop Juan Jose Gerardi. His murder was an affront to the Guatemalan people and to all of those dedicated to achieving peace with justice. As such, we have followed the course of the investigation in this case, which must be resolved if Guatemala is to demonstrate to its people and the international community that Guatemala has made a clean break with its past history of impunity and is determined to establish both the rule of law and public confidence in the judicial system. You have acknowledged and recognized the importance of resolving the Gerardi case. We have supported the efforts of your government to investigate and prosecute this case, and, in spite of many complications, we have been pleased by the progress made in the case. Consequently, we were deeply troubled to learn that Celvin Manolo Galindo, the Special Prosecutor assigned to the Gerardi case, recently fled the country in the face of death threats against him and his family. Published reports indicate that he was nearing the completion of the investigation and was preparing to request that two members of the military be detained as suspects in the case, and that threats against him and his family intensified as the investigation moved toward a conclusion. We urge you to take every possible step to assure that all of those involved in contributing to the just and timely resolution of the Gerardi case, as well as their family members, are provided with whatever protection is necessary in order to assure that this case is resolved. The wall of impunity must be torn down. Sincerely,
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Question:
Considering the number of people here who must think I’m some hideous misanthropic troll, I suppose it’s worth mentioning that I used to get mistaken for Jefferson Airplane/Starship guitarist Jorma Kaukonen.
And I, on occasion, have had pointed out to me that Janis Joplin would be a good person for me to ‘go as’ at Halloween. Of course, that’s only when I’m in a high humidity area and had a tough night, but the ‘whiskey voice’ is always there. — Tracey "You’re just jealous because the voices choose to talk to ME!"
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When I was younger, thinner, with the perm, back in the late 70s… people thought I was her [Bette Midler] ! They’d ask for my autograph…..
Considering the number of people here who must think I’m some hideous misanthropic troll, I suppose it’s worth mentioning that I used to get mistaken for Jefferson Airplane/Starship guitarist Jorma Kaukonen. Twice, anyway. Once in San Francisco in the early 70’s, once in Man- hattan, Ks. after what rather embarrasingly proved to be the world’s last Jefferson Airplane Concert (years after the band had mutated: "Play ‘White man, like – you cut your hair!
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"Flowers attract bugs," Yes indeedy they do! Today aHUGE grasshopper hopped in my front door (YUCH-O different butterflies were in my yard! My neighbor saw me putting fown some cedar mulch today. She was like "better than putting down smelly manure." I just smile. Love caryn (who has her first watermelon the size of a ping pong ball!) "Come into my garden, my flowers want to meet you!"
Excuse me, but my manure is sweet enough to stuff a pillow with! Smells better than some of the attitudes of some neighbors. Oh, and I actually saw mockingbirds (on my front lawn) eating grasshoppers today, but they were the small variety and who cares about those. I did see one which was mostly this greenish color who was a minimum of 4 inches long. I am a recluse. Well, it IS 105 with 40% humidity around here these days. Time to hibernate for me. V
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I’m in Zone 5, eastern Canada. It’s still similar enough that it’s not a huge stretch to translate across zones. Right now I’m just focusing on the "philosophy" and approach that she’s trying to convey. When I move on to "Planting Noah’s Garden", it might get a bit more difficult. Probably have to start doing research on local natives, and make educated substitutions. That’s OK, I’ve always wondered what that weed with the purple flowers was… Scott W. Zone 5 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Isn’t it wonderful? She is a very gifted writer. I am lucky in that where she lives in CT is not far from here. Thus many of the plants she speaks about are also perfect for where I live (Long island) I even planted a blueberry bush at the end of my hedgerow! Love Caryn "Come into my garden, my flowers want to meet you!"
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Oh yes, I LOVE the manure/compost I put down. Smells amazing. . My neighbor is pretty one dimensional, clueless, etc. , but my manure is sweet enough to stuff a pillow with! It finally cooled off here. It was 61 degrees this morning! Love caryn "Come into my garden, my flowers want to meet you!"
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The one redeeming thought is, whoever buys your home will probably be someone who likes the way you landscaped/gardened there. Ergo, they’ll probably keep on track with the efforts you already started… I admire the people who can march to a different drummer, esp. in a "controlled" situation like the usual ‘burbs. As discussed before, the people gardening in the inner cities deserve a salute too… -Chuck(totally rural and loving it)
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I almost hate to think of moving because who will feed the birds. But, I fear not because there are people like you and the others on this newsgroup who will always take up where someone leaves off. I’m sure in my next home, I will take up where someone left off…so life goes.
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It finally cooled off here. It was 61 degrees this
morning! It was 5 Celcius (approx. 42 F) this morning! Two months of no rain, 30+ Celcius, then 15 hours of solid rain, now it feels like November! I hope that doesn’t mean I have to start Xmas shopping… Scott W. Zone 5
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I was up there last week. It was cool when compared to where I am now. I mean, 90 degrees here is considered the beginning of fall. I was almost in tears to see how many trees were dying on Long Island. I’ve never seen it that bad before. V – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh yes, I LOVE the manure/compost I put down. Smells amazing. . My neighbor is pretty one dimensional, clueless, etc. , but my manure is sweet enough to stuff a pillow with! It finally cooled off here. It was 61 degrees this morning! Love caryn "Come into my garden, my flowers want to meet you!"
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Very true. And one day I too will be rural. Even if it WILL be boon docking in our RV motor home! Long as it’s rural I’ll be happier. For now, I make my haven where I am. You know, head where your feet are. I can glean joy out of anything if there is nature involved. When on Manhattan last week I looked up to see a ailanthus tree growing on a window sill. Right out of the stone work of the building. Imagine. Now THAT is nature and fittest… victoria – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The one redeeming thought is, whoever buys your home will probably be someone who likes the way you landscaped/gardened there. Ergo, they’ll probably keep on track with the efforts you already started… I admire the people who can march to a different drummer, esp. in a "controlled" situation like the usual ‘burbs. As discussed before, the people gardening in the inner cities deserve a salute too… -Chuck(totally rural and loving it)
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On a similar vein, I read a short article in OG that told of Bette Midler’s active involvement in the preservation of inner-city gardening in New York. This activism involved a donation for $250K besides being her acting as a spokesperson. The city was going to take away all the community gardens and sell the property to developers… I find her interest and support of this to be highly admirable. Now, the gardens will remain and I believe they’ll be worth a lot more to the people than just another office building… While I’m at it, I read something similar about the philanthropic activities of Paul Newman & family. His line of food products(Newman’s Own and the organic offshoot) have given huge sums of money(millions) to charities. I had read years ago that he intended to give the profits away, but never dreamed that he/they were that serious! So many companies scam the public with "buy our product and we’ll contribute 5 cents from every dollar to…..". It appears as if he(and his company) are the real thing! -Chuck
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Very true. And one day I too will be rural. Even if it WILL be boon docking in our RV motor home! Long as it’s rural I’ll be happier. For now, I make my haven where I am. You know, head where your feet are. I can glean joy out of anything if there is nature involved. When on Manhattan last week I looked up to see a ailanthus tree growing on a window sill. Right out of the stone work of the building. Imagine. Now THAT is nature and fittest…
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Years ago they had an adopt a highway spot and Bette was one of the first with her name associated with this effort. When I was on Manhattan last week, I passed many of these inner city gardens and they were a tiny relief from the energy sucking din of the city. Bette is a true humanitarian. When I was younger, thinner, with the perm, back in the late 70s…people thought I was her! They’d ask for my autograph all the time. I finally gave up and just started giving it out! People would NOT take no for an answer. That’s when the film "The Rose" was out. I did look a lot like her, but cleaned up a bit 
Paul Newman has always donated the proceeds of his products to charities. And I agree, he too is quite philanthropic. A very quiet, private man, the only time I’ve seen him come to live lately is during a show Oprah dedicated to his and his families recipes. I think they wrote a cookbook together. Even during a race (he is a team co-owner in CART open wheel racing) does he get as animated! Even when they win we see virtually nothing of him. What a delightful movie star! Victoria – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On a similar vein, I read a short article in OG that told of Bette Midler’s active involvement in the preservation of inner-city gardening in New York. This activism involved a donation for $250K besides being her acting as a spokesperson. The city was going to take away all the community gardens and sell the property to developers… I find her interest and support of this to be highly admirable. Now, the gardens will remain and I believe they’ll be worth a lot more to the people than just another office building… While I’m at it, I read something similar about the philanthropic activities of Paul Newman & family. His line of food products(Newman’s Own and the organic offshoot) have given huge sums of money(millions) to charities. I had read years ago that he intended to give the profits away, but never dreamed that he/they were that serious! So many companies scam the public with "buy our product and we’ll contribute 5 cents from every dollar to…..". It appears as if he(and his company) are the real thing! -Chuck
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I just wanted to thank everyone who was involved with the Noah’s Garden discussion a few weeks back. Based on that discussion, I ordered the book from Amazon.com and spent the weekend with my nose buried in it. I can’t get over how much I’m learning from this book! I now understand why we have no squirrels whatsoever, but can’t keep the deer out of the backyard. I now have a much better idea of why "living in the country" doesn’t mean the same thing that it used to, and how to change that. I now understand that birds aren’t the enemy when it comes to berrying bushes (ie. berry-bearing bushes, not burying them). I don’t mean to sound melodramatic or anything, but I just wanted to say how much I’m getting out of this book. Thanks again! Scott W. Zone 5
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I love your post and I too lavish in Sara Steins books. I’ve even taken to buying up any of her children’s books on science from used book stores. She has written many, many books on the subject. I am enthralled with any information which will direct me back toward ecosystem and habitat. I would gladly turn my property into such if I had any property, so I do what I can with my modest little yard. I do have about 20 species of birds stopping in, along with about 3 different hummingbird moths and all manner of other things I am scared to death of! If you liked Noah’s Garden, it is time to move up to her book which follows: "Planting Noah’s Garden." Tons of photos, on superior paper and a keepsake book which every gardener can own with pride. I know I do. I just returned from NY where my mother lives on a wildlife preserve. It is located on the south shore of Long Island and there are purple martins which almost eat out of our hands! Her 45 foot balcony looks out onto an estuary full of wildlife, including deer. Water birds (and non water birds) are unimaginably gorgeous when they swoop over the water. Swans, egrets, herons, ospreys, hawks, ducks, geese, and more. Everyone who lives on this stretch of shore land has berrying trees and shrubs to feed the birds and plenty of things to feed the deer. They plant other things which deer do not like. Never plant a hosta and complain the deer ate them! They WILL eat them to the nubs. Anyway, glad you enjoyed the book. I do believe I was the first one to mention it here, but there were others who were aware of it, like Wendy and Jessie (where is she by now, anyway?). Best in your new endeavor, Victoria – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I just wanted to thank everyone who was involved with the Noah’s Garden discussion a few weeks back. Based on that discussion, I ordered the book from Amazon.com and spent the weekend with my nose buried in it. I can’t get over how much I’m learning from this book! I now understand why we have no squirrels whatsoever, but can’t keep the deer out of the backyard. I now have a much better idea of why "living in the country" doesn’t mean the same thing that it used to, and how to change that. I now understand that birds aren’t the enemy when it comes to berrying bushes (ie. berry-bearing bushes, not burying them). I don’t mean to sound melodramatic or anything, but I just wanted to say how much I’m getting out of this book. Thanks again! Scott W. Zone 5
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We moved into our house about 2 years ago. It is an acre lot in a 30 year old subdivision. Lots backing onto each other are separated by about 50 feet of woods. However, when we moved in, we had no birds, no squirrels, toads, groundhogs, etc., etc. We couldn’t understand why there was "all this nature" but no wildlife! Some of it was just a matter of coaxing, since the previous owners seemed to completely ignore everything which didn’t run by internal combustion, so a few birdfeeders and stale bread made a difference. But, once we started breaking up the 1 acre of lawn by planting perennial borders, fruit trees, shrubs, etc. the wildlife began to slowly return. It is only after reading Steins’ book (I’m not even finished it yet) that I’m beginning to understand what is going on. I’m hoping I can continue the trend to the point where I’ll be cursing the squirrels, and wondering why the frogs won’t stay in our neighbour’s pond. We’re already competing with the deer for our apples! Scott W. Zone 5 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I love your post and I too lavish in Sara Steins books. I’ve even taken to buying up any of her children’s books on science from used book stores. She has written many, many books on the subject. I am enthralled with any information which will direct me back toward ecosystem and habitat. I would gladly turn my property into such if I had any property, so I do what I can with my modest little yard. I do have about 20 species of birds stopping in, along with about 3 different hummingbird moths and all manner of other things I am scared to death of! If you liked Noah’s Garden, it is time to move up to her book which follows: "Planting Noah’s Garden." Tons of photos, on superior paper and a keepsake book which every gardener can own with pride. I know I do. I just returned from NY where my mother lives on a wildlife preserve. It is located on the south shore of Long Island and there are purple martins which almost eat out of our hands! Her 45 foot balcony looks out onto an estuary full of wildlife, including deer. Water birds (and non water birds) are unimaginably gorgeous when they swoop over the water. Swans, egrets, herons, ospreys, hawks, ducks, geese, and more. Everyone who lives on this stretch of shore land has berrying trees and shrubs to feed the birds and plenty of things to feed the deer. They plant other things which deer do not like. Never plant a hosta and complain the deer ate them! They WILL eat them to the nubs. Anyway, glad you enjoyed the book. I do believe I was the first one to mention it here, but there were others who were aware of it, like Wendy and Jessie (where is she by now, anyway?). Best in your new endeavor, Victoria I just wanted to thank everyone who was involved with the Noah’s Garden discussion a few weeks back. Based on that discussion, I ordered the book from Amazon.com and spent the weekend with my nose buried in it. I can’t get over how much I’m learning from this book! I now understand why we have no squirrels whatsoever, but can’t keep the deer out of the backyard. I now have a much better idea of why "living in the country" doesn’t mean the same thing that it used to, and how to change that. I now understand that birds aren’t the enemy when it comes to berrying bushes (ie. berry-bearing bushes, not burying them). I don’t mean to sound melodramatic or anything, but I just wanted to say how much I’m getting out of this book. Thanks again! Scott W. Zone 5
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But, once we started breaking up the 1 acre of lawn by planting perennial borders, fruit trees, shrubs, etc. the wildlife began to slowly return.
Thrilling, isn’t it? We have (for now, though a builder has plans to take it away, siiiigh) 80 acres of woods behind our property, so we’ve always had birds visiting in back. (Cardinals, wrens, finches, blue jays, orioles, tit mice, woodpeckers, thrushes, mourning doves, chickadees, nut-hatches, etc.) But the front yard is much more exposed, is abutted by yards that are also mostly lawn, and so wasn’t visited by much. (Robins, starlings, mockingbirds.) Slowly we’ve been adding trees, shrubs and perennial beds — the grass shrinks every year, and good riddance! Yesterday I was thrilled to glance out a front window and see a small flock of goldfinches flitting between a beech, a crab apple and the flowers. I think it’s the first time I’ve seen any birds but mockingbirds in the beech, a fine purple-leaved ‘Rivers’ specimen. We have only half an acre, but even on our small lot you can see the difference in the number of birds & insects versus some of the "astro-turfed" yards across the street. Provide habitat, and they shall come. (Not that the "atsro-turfers" are jealous. One of them remarked to me, shortly after she moved in, that they definitely WEREN’T gardeners. "Flowers attract bugs," she sniffed. Indeed they do, and my yard’s a more interesting place for that.) –Steve
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Isn’t it wonderful? She is a very gifted writer. I am lucky in that where she lives in CT is not far from here. Thus many of the plants she speaks about are also perfect for where I live (Long island) I even planted a blueberry bush at the end of my hedgerow! Love Caryn "Come into my garden, my flowers want to meet you!"
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"Flowers attract bugs,"
Yes indeedy they do! Today aHUGE grasshopper hopped in my front door (YUCH-O different butterflies were in my yard! My neighbor saw me putting fown some cedar mulch today. She was like "better than putting down smelly manure." I just smile. Love caryn (who has her first watermelon the size of a ping pong ball!) "Come into my garden, my flowers want to meet you!"
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-snip- We have only half an acre, but even on our small lot you can see the difference in the number of birds & insects versus some of the "astro-turfed" yards across the street. Provide habitat, and they shall come. (Not that the "atsro-turfers" are jealous. One of them remarked to me, shortly after she moved in, that they definitely WEREN’T gardeners. "Flowers attract bugs," she sniffed. Indeed they do, and my yard’s a more interesting place for that.) –Steve
Ain’t this the sad scene indeed. The "astro turfers." What a great description. When anyone walks by my meager city house with the tiny yard (front and back) they literally get a small version of Serengeti! A ton of birds seem to fly out of nowhere to escape their fear of their only predator around here, the human and the cat who is neglected by the neighbors. I almost hate to think of moving because who will feed the birds. But, I fear not because there are people like you and the others on this newsgroup who will always take up where someone leaves off. I’m sure in my next home, I will take up where someone left off…so life goes. victoria-as George Carlin once said, "Life is a series of dogs…"
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Question:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Boris D: You think here no liberality, no as in other cases: We have laws that defend the animals. Why you negate the right of society defend a human child ? YA: Because his parents have precedence over what you think is right or wrong for him. The ideal solution for all problems there is no existing. And even if it exists, there must not be a privilege for the law to enter one’s own life, even if it is a "right" and "justified" law. That means, for example (regarding your case), that even if you think someone is violent and might kill someone, you have no right to hospitalize him in a mental institution (unless he actually has killed someone, and then – he deserves a punishment). -Do it is readable what written here( much mistakes??): Much mistakes, but – of course – you are making progress. Boris D: – This problem we are have a different conceptions. I sure, that the first mission of a country to defend her citizens, -his life and his dignity.. Each trauma and killing a people is a criminal act. I would agree with you when reading about of individual right the parents choose a way for breeding they child, but in limit of sapient. Boris I never trust anyone who takes children out of their parents (like judges do, even in USA). I never trust anyone who puts people in jail just for drug dealing or anything that does not harm other people. I don’t trust anyone whose main aim is to obey the law. YA: As I agree with YA in his explaining in his first part, as I oppose with written in two last fragments, that on my mean is partly no relevant and partly no justice. The realty determins that may be a case, when would justify judgment -to take a child out of they parents, when they could hart phisical their child(there is many primers). The court must intervene in drugs problem becous there is not any individual busy, but there consist a public interest of healt of people and society. -In plenty of possible cases of jurisprudence only the obey a law could secure the equality and Human Rights for each citizen and a society justice. Please excuse me for my "russian" brutality, but I had wish say my though the problen that I am pretty not expert and in this problem existing a public controvercy in Israel. You see: in case of missioners in Israel we together mean the same idea, but our friend "YA" think others. But you can agree that there is dilemma in the understanding, becouse "YA" is right under clear principle of democracy, but he no right relation under our individual understanding of the self situation (in relation to notion who is a jew). This is a specific ideologic religion or phylosophyc problem, -the court does his judgment maybe against the Law, but here -I can’t oppose these judgment becouse I think as you (event that we are reading about people that maybe are jews by blood). But You have agree with me that this case the court had given his judgment equallity with Ravinate and our understanding. -In contrary to my agree with this judgment, I sure that here there is a bond of conflict of liberalism, legaly, religion and logical though. I can’t to do a sure conclusion. Then I mean that these dilemma is no part of judiciary but must be a law or a legal comments for these problem. Then the people that wish immigrate in Israel will know that he have a difficalcy for get citiezenship in Israel. But with understanding of difficalcy these problems I sure that these problems is partly specific Israeli problems that have find onely answer in community and Israeli Law. In difference to your opposition to my proposals for improve some Israeli laws, -I raised a general problem of secure the rights of litigants in court under Law, as condition for justice judgment and as conventional with International norms and as relevant for many countries. Boris Dobrovensky It is hard to regain freedom once it has been lost. The US is having that problem right now. The danger is from people who would impose their agenda on others for the good of those upon whom it is imposed. In general, these are the ones who claim Divine religious authority. Israel is no exception; the impasse requiring the religious parties to be in a governing coalition is going to continue. The religious parties encourage and condone the hooligans. I am surprised that you, who seems to be a recent Russian immigrant to Israel, would support anything giving the Orthodox more power. Many of the Russians there have great difficulty in getting married, because of the Orthodox monopoly on deciding who is Jewish. This will only get worse if the judges are subordinate to the Knesset. The purpose of a constitution is to keep the government from oppressing individuals. An independent judiciary is needed to enforce the constitution against the government. Dear mr .HR Thank your explanation. Meantime I wish answer on last phrase. The "independence of court" is using in Israel in other purpose from you means. Our chief of the court wish get the function of legislator. It’s request contrary to tenet of democracy and logic. The principle of democracy in separation the legislator from executive, -it’s A,’B. Maybe in countries where the judges is elected by folk may be court independence. But not as second government in one country. -Wit limitation of authority given in CONSTITUTION. But in israel the judges nomination near conspiracy act. Absurdity the judge nomination turn be a job of advocates. In real the folk have a passive part as a listener in show. Please read a fragments what I suffered because judges rampage: <a href="http:www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/9650/pages198" You have see the realty, the other site of medal Relatively to your worry because of the Orthodox monopoly on deciding who is Jewish, etc. -I mean that the religions part of a folk have right be part of influence as each other part of folk. -We are not America and no one procent of USA or Russian. -We must be jewish country as it was begin. -We need find an optional variant in Constitution for watch the jewish motherland, -Others we will turn in short time in one of arabic countries. -We have a part of population that wish not understand that in jewish country the color must be jewish. It’s a problem… -But we have not give the last decision in hands of office or any interested groups. -But I sure that the problem of religion dictate is artificial experience to bring other egoistic interest of advocates army, that wish be the commander and good future for their familia. -The folk election? Parliament? Constitution? No !? -Existing a people that would rather as will be country build from Advocates offices, courts, and their clients. – But the system of life will be under wish of folk … Let’s discuss fundamental the judiciary, without scare by religion dictate, it is only a little part of a justice problems, -no first problem. -I sure that problems of religion part in society will be treated by community, but no by court’s initiatives. Sincerely Boris D. Good Luck Boris!!!! I’m behind you 190%. Perhaps you can add that the attorney general and head of Police to be elected officials as in a "democracy". Good luck Boris, knock down those walls of dictatorship and bolshovism! Jerry -Dear Citizen! -Much times I appeled to our elected men in cases of abuse and lawlessness and helplessness. - The following written the proposal to improve securing of Civil
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Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Boris D: You think here no liberality, no as in other cases: We have laws that defend the animals. Why you negate the right of society defend a human child ? YA: Because his parents have precedence over what you think is right or wrong for him. The ideal solution for all problems there is no existing. And even if it exists, there must not be a privilege for the law to enter one’s own life, even if it is a "right" and "justified" law. That means, for example (regarding your case), that even if you think someone is violent and might kill someone, you have no right to hospitalize him in a mental institution (unless he actually has killed someone, and then – he deserves a punishment). -Do it is readable what written here( much mistakes??): Much mistakes, but – of course – you are making progress. Boris D: – This problem we are have a different conceptions. I sure, that the first mission of a country to defend her citizens, -his life and his dignity.. Each trauma and killing a people is a criminal act. I would agree with you when reading about of individual right the parents choose a way for breeding they child, but in limit of sapient. Boris I never trust anyone who takes children out of their parents (like judges do, even in USA). I never trust anyone who puts people in jail just for drug dealing or anything that does not harm other people. I don’t trust anyone whose main aim is to obey the law. YA: As I agree with YA in his explaining in his first part, as I oppose with written in two last fragments, that on my mean is partly no relevant and partly no justice. The realty determins that may be a case, when would justify judgment -to take a child out of they parents, when they could hart phisical their child(there is many primers). The court must intervene in drugs problem becous there is not any individual busy, but there consist a public interest of healt of people and society. -In plenty of possible cases of jurisprudence only the obey a law could secure the equality and Human Rights for each citizen and a society justice. Please excuse me for my "russian" brutality, but I had wish say my though the problen that I am pretty not expert and in this problem existing a public controvercy in Israel. You see: in case of missioners in Israel we together mean the same idea, but our friend "YA" think others. But you can agree that there is dilemma in the understanding, becouse "YA" is right under clear principle of democracy, but he no right relation under our individual understanding of the self situation (in relation to notion who is a jew). This is a specific ideologic religion or phylosophyc problem, -the court does his judgment maybe against the Law, but here -I can’t oppose these judgment becouse I think as you (event that we are reading about people that maybe are jews by blood). But You have agree with me that this case the court had given his judgment equallity with Ravinate and our understanding. -In contrary to my agree with this judgment, I sure that here there is a bond of conflict of liberalism, legaly, religion and logical though. I can’t to do a sure conclusion. Then I mean that these dilemma is no part of judiciary but must be a law or a legal comments for these problem. Then the people that wish immigrate in Israel will know that he have a difficalcy for get citiezenship in Israel. But with understanding of difficalcy these problems I sure that these problems is partly specific Israeli problems that have find onely answer in community and Israeli Law. In difference to your opposition to my proposals for improve some Israeli laws, -I raised a general problem of secure the rights of litigants in court under Law, as condition for justice judgment and as conventional with International norms and as relevant for many countries. Boris Dobrovensky It is hard to regain freedom once it has been lost. The US is having that problem right now. The danger is from people who would impose their agenda on others for the good of those upon whom it is imposed. In general, these are the ones who claim Divine religious authority. Israel is no exception; the impasse requiring the religious parties to be in a governing coalition is going to continue. The religious parties encourage and condone the hooligans. I am surprised that you, who seems to be a recent Russian immigrant to Israel, would support anything giving the Orthodox more power. Many of the Russians there have great difficulty in getting married, because of the Orthodox monopoly on deciding who is Jewish. This will only get worse if the judges are subordinate to the Knesset. The purpose of a constitution is to keep the government from oppressing individuals. An independent judiciary is needed to enforce the constitution against the government. Dear mr .HR Thank your explanation. Meantime I wish answer on last phrase. The "independence of court" is using in Israel in other purpose from you means. Our chief of the court wish get the function of legislator. It’s request contrary to tenet of democracy and logic. The principle of democracy in separation the legislator from executive, -it’s A,’B. Maybe in countries where the judges is elected by folk may be court independence. But not as second government in one country. -Wit limitation of authority given in CONSTITUTION. But in israel the judges nomination near conspiracy act. Absurdity the judge nomination turn be a job of advocates. In real the folk have a passive part as a listener in show. Please read a fragments what I suffered because judges rampage: <a href="http:www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/9650/pages198" You have see the realty, the other site of medal Relatively to your worry because of the Orthodox monopoly on deciding who is Jewish, etc. -I mean that the religions part of a folk have right be part of influence as each other part of folk. -We are not America and no one procent of USA or Russian. -We must be jewish country as it was begin. -We need find an optional variant in Constitution for watch the jewish motherland, -Others we will turn in short time in one of arabic countries. -We have a part of population that wish not understand that in jewish country the color must be jewish. It’s a problem… -But we have not give the last decision in hands of office or any interested groups. -But I sure that the problem of religion dictate is artificial experience to bring other egoistic interest of advocates army, that wish be the commander and good future for their familia. -The folk election? Parliament? Constitution? No !? -Existing a people that would rather as will be country build from Advocates offices, courts, and their clients. – But the system of life will be under wish of folk … Let’s discuss fundamental the judiciary, without scare by religion dictate, it is only a little part of a justice problems, -no first problem. -I sure that problems of religion part in society will be treated by community, but no by court’s initiatives. Sincerely Boris D. Good Luck Boris!!!! I’m behind you 190%. Perhaps you can add that the attorney general and head of Police to be elected officials as in a "democracy". Good luck Boris, knock down those walls of dictatorship and bolshovism! Jerry -Dear Citizen! -Much times I appeled to our elected men in cases of abuse and lawlessness and helplessness. - The following written the proposal to improve securing of Civil Rights in Israel that I sent in our parliament.. -There is a public interest! -becouse the proposal gives an Alternative for Israeli Judiciary system that could prevent the unjustice judgment and tendentious in court. -But us before, I have received no reply from members of the Knesset. -Do they not have any manners? (it’s
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Response:
Boris D: You think here no liberality, no as in other cases: We have laws that defend the animals. Why you negate the right of society defend a human child ?
YA: Because his parents have precedence over what you think is right or wrong for him. The ideal solution for all problems there is no existing.
And even if it exists, there must not be a privilege for the law to enter one’s own life, even if it is a "right" and "justified" law. That means, for example (regarding your case), that even if you think someone is violent and might kill someone, you have no right to hospitalize him in a mental institution (unless he actually has killed someone, and then – he deserves a punishment). -Do it is readable what written here( much mistakes??):
Much mistakes, but – of course – you are making progress. Boris D: – This problem we are have a different conceptions. I sure, that the first mission of a country to defend her citizens, -his life and his dignity.. Each trauma and killing a people is a criminal act. I would agree with you when reading about of individual right the parents choose a way for breeding they child, but in limit of sapient. Boris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I never trust anyone who takes children out of their parents (like judges do, even in USA). I never trust anyone who puts people in jail just for drug dealing or anything that does not harm other people. I don’t trust anyone whose main aim is to obey the law. YA: As I agree with YA in his explaining in his first part, as I oppose with written in two last fragments, that on my mean is partly no relevant and partly no justice. The realty determins that may be a case, when would justify judgment -to take a child out of they parents, when they could hart phisical their child(there is many primers). The court must intervene in drugs problem becous there is not any individual busy, but there consist a public interest of healt of people and society. -In plenty of possible cases of jurisprudence only the obey a law could secure the equality and Human Rights for each citizen and a society justice. Please excuse me for my "russian" brutality, but I had wish say my though the problen that I am pretty not expert and in this problem existing a public controvercy in Israel. You see: in case of missioners in Israel we together mean the same idea, but our friend "YA" think others. But you can agree that there is dilemma in the understanding, becouse "YA" is right under clear principle of democracy, but he no right relation under our individual understanding of the self situation (in relation to notion who is a jew). This is a specific ideologic religion or phylosophyc problem, -the court does his judgment maybe against the Law, but here -I can’t oppose these judgment becouse I think as you (event that we are reading about people that maybe are jews by blood). But You have agree with me that this case the court had given his judgment equallity with Ravinate and our understanding. -In contrary to my agree with this judgment, I sure that here there is a bond of conflict of liberalism, legaly, religion and logical though. I can’t to do a sure conclusion. Then I mean that these dilemma is no part of judiciary but must be a law or a legal comments for these problem. Then the people that wish immigrate in Israel will know that he have a difficalcy for get citiezenship in Israel. But with understanding of difficalcy these problems I sure that these problems is partly specific Israeli problems that have find onely answer in community and Israeli Law. In difference to your opposition to my proposals for improve some Israeli laws, -I raised a general problem of secure the rights of litigants in court under Law, as condition for justice judgment and as conventional with International norms and as relevant for many countries. Boris Dobrovensky It is hard to regain freedom once it has been lost. The US is having that problem right now. The danger is from people who would impose their agenda on others for the good of those upon whom it is imposed. In general, these are the ones who claim Divine religious authority. Israel is no exception; the impasse requiring the religious parties to be in a governing coalition is going to continue. The religious parties encourage and condone the hooligans. I am surprised that you, who seems to be a recent Russian immigrant to Israel, would support anything giving the Orthodox more power. Many of the Russians there have great difficulty in getting married, because of the Orthodox monopoly on deciding who is Jewish. This will only get worse if the judges are subordinate to the Knesset. The purpose of a constitution is to keep the government from oppressing individuals. An independent judiciary is needed to enforce the constitution against the government. Dear mr .HR Thank your explanation. Meantime I wish answer on last phrase. The "independence of court" is using in Israel in other purpose from you means. Our chief of the court wish get the function of legislator. It’s request contrary to tenet of democracy and logic. The principle of democracy in separation the legislator from executive, -it’s A,’B. Maybe in countries where the judges is elected by folk may be court independence. But not as second government in one country. -Wit limitation of authority given in CONSTITUTION. But in israel the judges nomination near conspiracy act. Absurdity the judge nomination turn be a job of advocates. In real the folk have a passive part as a listener in show. Please read a fragments what I suffered because judges rampage: <a href="http:www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/9650/pages198" You have see the realty, the other site of medal Relatively to your worry because of the Orthodox monopoly on deciding who is Jewish, etc. -I mean that the religions part of a folk have right be part of influence as each other part of folk. -We are not America and no one procent of USA or Russian. -We must be jewish country as it was begin. -We need find an optional variant in Constitution for watch the jewish motherland, -Others we will turn in short time in one of arabic countries. -We have a part of population that wish not understand that in jewish country the color must be jewish. It’s a problem… -But we have not give the last decision in hands of office or any interested groups. -But I sure that the problem of religion dictate is artificial experience to bring other egoistic interest of advocates army, that wish be the commander and good future for their familia. -The folk election? Parliament? Constitution? No !? -Existing a people that would rather as will be country build from Advocates offices, courts, and their clients. – But the system of life will be under wish of folk … Let’s discuss fundamental the judiciary, without scare by religion dictate, it is only a little part of a justice problems, -no first problem. -I sure that problems of religion part in society will be treated by community, but no by court’s initiatives. Sincerely Boris D. Good Luck Boris!!!! I’m behind you 190%. Perhaps you can add that the attorney general and head of Police to be elected officials as in a "democracy". Good luck Boris, knock down those walls of dictatorship and bolshovism! Jerry -Dear Citizen! -Much times I appeled to our elected men in cases of abuse and lawlessness and helplessness. - The following written the proposal to improve securing of Civil Rights in Israel that I sent in our parliament.. -There is a public interest! -becouse the proposal gives an Alternative for Israeli Judiciary system that could prevent the unjustice judgment and tendentious in court. -But us before, I have received no reply from members of the Knesset. -Do they not have any manners? (it’s many of elected men). -There is a public interest! -Please give me some encouragement! Thank You, Jerry! May be You Right about election the attorney general and head of Police be elected officials as in a "democracy". We leave in world of absurdism, it’s no only bolshevism, The establishment "improved" the judiciary by conspiracy and corruption motives. My be
… read more »
Response:
I never trust anyone who takes children out of their parents (like judges do, even in USA). I never trust anyone who puts people in jail just for drug dealing or anything that does not harm other people. I don’t trust anyone whose main aim is to obey the law. YA:
As I agree with YA in his explaining in his first part, as I oppose with written in two last fragments, that on my mean is partly no relevant and partly no justice. The realty determins that may be a case, when would justify judgment -to take a child out of they parents, when they could hart phisical their child(there is many primers). The court must intervene in drugs problem becous there is not any individual busy, but there consist a public interest of healt of people and society. -In plenty of possible cases of jurisprudence only the obey a law could secure the equality and Human Rights for each citizen and a society justice. Please excuse me for my "russian" brutality, but I had wish say my though the problen that I am pretty not expert and in this problem existing a public controvercy in Israel. You see: in case of missioners in Israel we together mean the same idea, but our friend "YA" think others. But you can agree that there is dilemma in the understanding, becouse "YA" is right under clear principle of democracy, but he no right relation under our individual understanding of the self situation (in relation to notion who is a jew). This is a specific ideologic religion or phylosophyc problem, -the court does his judgment maybe against the Law, but here -I can’t oppose these judgment becouse I think as you (event that we are reading about people that maybe are jews by blood). But You have agree with me that this case the court had given his judgment equallity with Ravinate and our understanding. -In contrary to my agree with this judgment, I sure that here there is a bond of conflict of liberalism, legaly, religion and logical though. I can’t to do a sure conclusion. Then I mean that these dilemma is no part of judiciary but must be a law or a legal comments for these problem. Then the people that wish immigrate in Israel will know that he have a difficalcy for get citiezenship in Israel. But with understanding of difficalcy these problems I sure that these problems is partly specific Israeli problems that have find onely answer in community and Israeli Law. In difference to your opposition to my proposals for improve some Israeli laws, -I raised a general problem of secure the rights of litigants in court under Law, as condition for justice judgment and as conventional with International norms and as relevant for many countries. Boris Dobrovensky – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is hard to regain freedom once it has been lost. The US is having that problem right now. The danger is from people who would impose their agenda on others for the good of those upon whom it is imposed. In general, these are the ones who claim Divine religious authority. Israel is no exception; the impasse requiring the religious parties to be in a governing coalition is going to continue. The religious parties encourage and condone the hooligans. I am surprised that you, who seems to be a recent Russian immigrant to Israel, would support anything giving the Orthodox more power. Many of the Russians there have great difficulty in getting married, because of the Orthodox monopoly on deciding who is Jewish. This will only get worse if the judges are subordinate to the Knesset. The purpose of a constitution is to keep the government from oppressing individuals. An independent judiciary is needed to enforce the constitution against the government. Dear mr .HR Thank your explanation. Meantime I wish answer on last phrase. The "independence of court" is using in Israel in other purpose from you means. Our chief of the court wish get the function of legislator. It’s request contrary to tenet of democracy and logic. The principle of democracy in separation the legislator from executive, -it’s A,’B. Maybe in countries where the judges is elected by folk may be court independence. But not as second government in one country. -Wit limitation of authority given in CONSTITUTION. But in israel the judges nomination near conspiracy act. Absurdity the judge nomination turn be a job of advocates. In real the folk have a passive part as a listener in show. Please read a fragments what I suffered because judges rampage: <a href="http:www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/9650/pages198" You have see the realty, the other site of medal Relatively to your worry because of the Orthodox monopoly on deciding who is Jewish, etc. -I mean that the religions part of a folk have right be part of influence as each other part of folk. -We are not America and no one procent of USA or Russian. -We must be jewish country as it was begin. -We need find an optional variant in Constitution for watch the jewish motherland, -Others we will turn in short time in one of arabic countries. -We have a part of population that wish not understand that in jewish country the color must be jewish. It’s a problem… -But we have not give the last decision in hands of office or any interested groups. -But I sure that the problem of religion dictate is artificial experience to bring other egoistic interest of advocates army, that wish be the commander and good future for their familia. -The folk election? Parliament? Constitution? No !? -Existing a people that would rather as will be country build from Advocates offices, courts, and their clients. – But the system of life will be under wish of folk … Let’s discuss fundamental the judiciary, without scare by religion dictate, it is only a little part of a justice problems, -no first problem. -I sure that problems of religion part in society will be treated by community, but no by court’s initiatives. Sincerely Boris D. Good Luck Boris!!!! I’m behind you 190%. Perhaps you can add that the attorney general and head of Police to be elected officials as in a "democracy". Good luck Boris, knock down those walls of dictatorship and bolshovism! Jerry -Dear Citizen! -Much times I appeled to our elected men in cases of abuse and lawlessness and helplessness. - The following written the proposal to improve securing of Civil Rights in Israel that I sent in our parliament.. -There is a public interest! -becouse the proposal gives an Alternative for Israeli Judiciary system that could prevent the unjustice judgment and tendentious in court. -But us before, I have received no reply from members of the Knesset. -Do they not have any manners? (it’s many of elected men). -There is a public interest! -Please give me some encouragement! Thank You, Jerry! May be You Right about election the attorney general and head of Police be elected officials as in a "democracy". We leave in world of absurdism, it’s no only bolshevism, The establishment "improved" the judiciary by conspiracy and corruption motives. My be it’s answer american friends helps for their elections. I suffered, -the conspiracy is wrongfool for Israeli moral. You could read about my Experience: <a href="http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/9650/pages198.html" Sincerely Boris. Dear Jerry, -I agree that the Judicial Consultant of Government should be elected, It will be a Communnity Control body for watch the Law and justice in the communnity. But it need all time to raise this problems. -Existing many victims of conspiracy. but only the criminals( as Ohana) huppy to publicate provocation , and the rial victims are leave helpless We have no the tools for raise the real problems of court cospire and others. Boris. -Dear Citizen! -Much times I appeled to our elected men in cases of abuse and lawlessness and helplessness. - The following written the proposal to improve securing of Civil Rights in Israel that I sent in our parliament.. -There is a public interest! -becouse the proposal gives an Alternative for Israeli Judiciary system that could prevent the unjustice judgment and tendentious in court. -But us before, I have received no reply from members of the Knesset. -Do they not have any manners? (it’s many of elected men). -There is a public interest! -Please give me some encouragement! -The Alternative Israeli Judiciary system:
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Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is hard to regain freedom once it has been lost. The US is having that problem right now. The danger is from people who would impose their agenda on others for the good of those upon whom it is imposed. In general, these are the ones who claim Divine religious authority. Israel is no exception; the impasse requiring the religious parties to be in a governing coalition is going to continue. The religious parties encourage and condone the hooligans. I am surprised that you, who seems to be a recent Russian immigrant to Israel, would support anything giving the Orthodox more power. Many of the Russians there have great difficulty in getting married, because of the Orthodox monopoly on deciding who is Jewish. This will only get worse if the judges are subordinate to the Knesset. The purpose of a constitution is to keep the government from oppressing individuals. An independent judiciary is needed to enforce the constitution against the government. Dear mr .HR Thank your explanation. Meantime I wish answer on last phrase. The "independence of court" is using in Israel in other purpose from you means. Our chief of the court wish get the function of legislator. It’s request contrary to tenet of democracy and logic. The principle of democracy in separation the legislator from executive, -it’s A,’B. Maybe in countries where the judges is elected by folk may be court independence. But not as second government in one country. -Wit limitation of authority given in CONSTITUTION. But in israel the judges nomination near conspiracy act. Absurdity the judge nomination turn be a job of advocates. In real the folk have a passive part as a listener in show. Please read a fragments what I suffered because judges rampage: <a href="http:www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/9650/pages198" You have see the realty, the other site of medal Relatively to your worry because of the Orthodox monopoly on deciding who is Jewish, etc. -I mean that the religions part of a folk have right be part of influence as each other part of folk. -We are not America and no one procent of USA or Russian. -We must be jewish country as it was begin. -We need find an optional variant in Constitution for watch the jewish motherland, -Others we will turn in short time in one of arabic countries. -We have a part of population that wish not understand that in jewish country the color must be jewish. It’s a problem… -But we have not give the last decision in hands of office or any interested groups. -But I sure that the problem of religion dictate is artificial experience to bring other egoistic interest of advocates army, that wish be the commander and good future for their familia. -The folk election? Parliament? Constitution? No !? -Existing a people that would rather as will be country build from Advocates offices, courts, and their clients. – But the system of life will be under wish of folk … Let’s discuss fundamental the judiciary, without scare by religion dictate, it is only a little part of a justice problems, -no first problem. -I sure that problems of religion part in society will be treated by community, but no by court’s initiatives. Sincerely Boris D. Good Luck Boris!!!! I’m behind you 190%. Perhaps you can add that the attorney general and head of Police to be elected officials as in a "democracy". Good luck Boris, knock down those walls of dictatorship and bolshovism! Jerry -Dear Citizen! -Much times I appeled to our elected men in cases of abuse and lawlessness and helplessness. - The following written the proposal to improve securing of Civil Rights in Israel that I sent in our parliament.. -There is a public interest! -becouse the proposal gives an Alternative for Israeli Judiciary system that could prevent the unjustice judgment and tendentious in court. -But us before, I have received no reply from members of the Knesset. -Do they not have any manners? (it’s many of elected men). -There is a public interest! -Please give me some encouragement! Thank You, Jerry! May be You Right about election the attorney general and head of Police be elected officials as in a "democracy". We leave in world of absurdism, it’s no only bolshevism, The establishment "improved" the judiciary by conspiracy and corruption motives. My be it’s answer american friends helps for their elections. I suffered, -the conspiracy is wrongfool for Israeli moral. You could read about my Experience: <a href="http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/9650/pages198.html" Sincerely Boris. Dear Jerry, -I agree that the Judicial Consultant of Government should be elected, It will be a Communnity Control body for watch the Law and justice in the communnity. But it need all time to raise this problems. -Existing many victims of conspiracy. but only the criminals( as Ohana) huppy to publicate provocation , and the rial victims are leave helpless We have no the tools for raise the real problems of court cospire and others. Boris. -Dear Citizen! -Much times I appeled to our elected men in cases of abuse and lawlessness and helplessness. - The following written the proposal to improve securing of Civil Rights in Israel that I sent in our parliament.. -There is a public interest! -becouse the proposal gives an Alternative for Israeli Judiciary system that could prevent the unjustice judgment and tendentious in court. -But us before, I have received no reply from members of the Knesset. -Do they not have any manners? (it’s many of elected men). -There is a public interest! -Please give me some encouragement! -The Alternative Israeli Judiciary system: ( Compatible with Israeli Human Rights Law and as basis of social justice). The method of the judiciary: 1. There to be a trial by a jury; Judges nomination. 2. All judges to be elected every 5 years by the people in general elections; The Supreme Court Chief nomination 3. The vacancy of the Supreme Court chief be filled by an elected judge nominated for a period of three years. o – There may be two or three candidates for this vacancy, ( under parliament’s decision ). o The Israeli President and a special commission of Knesset (Parliament) Members will have the right of recommending the candidates for this vacancy. o The right of VETO is saved for the Israeli President. o The Candidate for the presidency of Supreme Court will get the authority just after his election from a quorum of no less than (100) parliament members. Management of a trial. 4. The judgement must be made in accordance with the law; All the rights of a litigant must be carefully watched over. -Recordings of the proceedings 5. The proceedings of the trial will be recorded by an independent body useing a modern automated recording system. The decision of the court. 6. Each court decision must contain a transcript of the law and all the evidence used or displayed in the trial. 7. The court decision will be given to all litigants just after the end of court session and in their presence. The judge’s responsibility; complains. 8. The complaints against judges should be reviewed by an independent entity. The complainant will be required to give a testimony. -The relevant facts of the complaint will be a part of controllers discussion and conclusion of judge’s behavior. 9. For any act of violating a trial process, the judge will be punished according to the law and removed. 10. A judge who commits a crime will be removed. 11. Any individual who has or has had a part in any
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At present, the somewhat independent judiciary is the only organization protecting civil rights; the Knesset, at this time, is totally unable to do so, and this is a general phenomenon.
YA answer:
Question:
Hey, do you think I’ve been slandered or libeled by the label of "wacko"? *snicker* Actually, considering the source, I think this is a label you should wear with pride! Karen Hohne
Libel or slander depends on whether the "labeler" made the deprecating remark orally or in writing. If you can live with it, neither matters. Consider the source…and don’t let it spoil your Holidays. — Cheers, BobH "Chicken Little only has to be right once."
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, do you think I’ve been slandered or libeled by the label of "wacko"? *snicker* Actually, considering the source, I think this is a label you should wear with pride! Karen Hohne Libel or slander depends on whether the "labeler" made the deprecating remark orally or in writing. If you can live with it, neither matters. Consider the source…and don’t let it spoil your Holidays. — Cheers, BobH "Chicken Little only has to be right once."
Yeah, you’re absolutely right, Bob. Names don’t matter, it’s what’s inside that counts. (And those two pieces of pumpkin pie and whipped cream I had for breakfast matter a lot right now. Real bad idea.) Have a wonderful, happy day. Give all your kitties big nose rubs from all of ours. One a piece, so that’s 18 from the cats and two from me. Thanks, lisaviolet — go to my website to get my real email address visit the best little cathouse in cyberspace <http://www.lisaviolet.com
Response:
Ok-this is what I am referring to as "drivel". I value the opinion of both sides regarding de-clawing. But ultimately, this discussion (at least the ones I have read) have turned to personal attacks. There are many view points. I do have 2 de-clawed cats. This was my decision, and it was an informed decision. I think that if you lay all of your cards on the table-then let others make their own decision, your job is done. I am not essentially advocating "no declawing discusions" on this list. To me it just seems that 300 plus posts deserves its own list. Yes, I have read bits and pieces of the threads as they have been brought to the group. They all have resulted in name calling and occasionally-the subject gets changed and the subject line doesn’t. Again-I’m not advocating censorship-just restraint. Christine BTW-just because I declaw, doesn’t mean I don’t love my pets, or that I am not deserving of them.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ok-this is what I am referring to as "drivel". I value the opinion of both sides regarding de-clawing. But ultimately, this discussion (at least the ones I have read) have turned to personal attacks. There are many view points. I do have 2 de-clawed cats. This was my decision, and it was an informed decision. I think that if you lay all of your cards on the table-then let others make their own decision, your job is done. I am not essentially advocating "no declawing discusions" on this list. To me it just seems that 300 plus posts deserves its own list. Yes, I have read bits and pieces of the threads as they have been brought to the group. They all have resulted in name calling and occasionally-the subject gets changed and the subject line doesn’t. Again-I’m not advocating censorship-just restraint. Christine BTW-just because I declaw, doesn’t mean I don’t love my pets, or that I am not deserving of them.
Well, all I can give is the UK example. Here, for quite a few years, cats have been the number one choice of pet. More cats are owned as pets than any other animal. Decalwing isn’t carried out over here unless it is for a medical reason in the favour of the cat. Scratching doesn’t count as a medical reason. Go to a UK shelter and ask for a cat indicating you’ll have it declawed and you’ll be shown the exit door – minus a cat. Go to a vet and ask him or her to declaw it for a non-medical reason and you’ll be refused the procedure. In the words of my vet about declawing, "Who would want to carry out such an unnecessary procedure on a cat anyway?" Declawing cats just doesn’t form part of life with cats in the UK I am pleased to say. And to repeat – more cats are owned as pets in the UK than any other animal. Are our shelters full of cats thrown out becasue they "have claws and use them" – NO. Are cats rendered unhomeable because they have claws – NO Are cats euthanised because they have claws – NO (The vast majority of our shelkters are "no-kill" to use an American term) Cats come with claws and we learn to understand cats and train them not to scratch inappropriately. It really isn’t difficult to do – but it requires time, patience and understanding of cat behaviour. Are homes in the UK full of people scarred for life from years of scratching by uncontrollable cats with claws – NO:-) Are UK homes full of shredded furniture – NO:-) Are we so wealthy we can afford to replace our furniture frequently – NO:-) Please understand, my post here is not anti-American – it *is* anti-declawing – a horrible unnecessary mutilation of a cat by amputating part of its paws. I truly cannot understand the thinking of someone who would knowingly have part of a cat’s paws amptated for mere convenience. Sometimes people post that it’s declaw or die. I question this – if someone can’t satisfactorily own a cat without declawing it, I question whether they should consider owning a cat in the first place, perhaps a goldfish would be better suited to their needs. In the States there is a serious cat overpopulation problem, I fail to see how declawing helps this as the declaw or die advocates sometimes state – neutering and speying does, but declawing, I fail to see it. Neutering and speying stops adding to the problem, but declawing, no. No-one has a right to a pet. It has been put to me that in America, everyone has the freedom to do as they want. What a load of codswallop to try to make it so simplistic. If this was the case, there’d be no laws at all. Also, with freedom comes responsibility. Freedom to do as the individual wants without thought to the implications of the effects of actions on others isn’t freedom or democracy, it’s anarchy. What a great freeedom to have – the freedom to mutilate a pet. Personally I have no problem doing without that particular freedom. Regards, helen S
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For God’s sake, I’ve just scrolled past about 300 posts to the declawing thread. Please start your own list dedicated to that. Please! CM
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Plus, the subject seems to invite personal attacks and venom. Perhaps we should agree to an informal "ban" on the subject, and if someone new asks the "should I or shouldn’t I" question, just refer them to DejaNews and their vet. Susan L.
For God’s sake, I’ve just scrolled past about 300 posts to the declawing thread. Please start your own list dedicated to that. Please! CM
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The subject belongs in this newsgroup and what you are advocating amounts to censorship. How people conduct themselves is an entirely different matter. Monica
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Plus, the subject seems to invite personal attacks and venom. Perhaps we should agree to an informal "ban" on the subject, and if someone new asks the "should I or shouldn’t I" question, just refer them to DejaNews and their vet. Susan L. For God’s sake, I’ve just scrolled past about 300 posts to the declawing thread. Please start your own list dedicated to that. Please! CM
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Plus, the subject seems to invite personal attacks and venom. Perhaps we should agree to an informal "ban" on the subject, and if someone new asks the "should I or shouldn’t I" question, just refer them to DejaNews and their vet.
From what I’ve learned by calling vet’s in my area, "ask your vet" is the _last_ thing you want to tell someone who is undecided about declawing. Most vets I talked to were so declaw-happy it would turn your stomach. That’s one of the reasons I think it’s so important to educate people on the issue in this forum. The vets sure aren’t doing it. However, if anyone wishes to start their own cat-interest list where discussions of declawing are prohibited, they are welcome to do so. —
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I totally agree that there are an excessive amount of posts on this subject- too much. However I don’t believe that it should be "banned" from the NG. I would just suggest moderation (and more respect when discussing this matter- there are way too many nasty posts and personal attacks that are NOT productive nor needed). J.Coyer CVT – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Plus, the subject seems to invite personal attacks and venom. Perhaps we should agree to an informal "ban" on the subject, and if someone new asks the "should I or shouldn’t I" question, just refer them to DejaNews and their vet. Susan L. For God’s sake, I’ve just scrolled past about 300 posts to the declawing thread. Please start your own list dedicated to that. Please! CM
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If it solicited a few responses: fine, but the information has been exhaused, and it is just drivel at this time. It draws so much attention, why not have a list dedicated to the issue??? The people who post to this thread aren’t changing anyones minds, they are just spouting their point of view over and over and over. How is this helpful to a person who genuinely want to know the pros and cons of having you cat declawed? They are met with hostility from the anti-declawers. CM
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If it solicited a few responses: fine, but the information has been exhaused, and it is just drivel at this time. It draws so much attention, why not have a list dedicated to the issue??? The people who post to this thread aren’t changing anyones minds, they are just spouting their point of view over and over and over. How is this helpful to a person who genuinely want to know the pros and cons of having you cat declawed? They are met with hostility from the anti-declawers. CM
Just to ask you a question, Christine. Why is talk about amputating a cat’s claws and the bone to which said claws were attached – drivel? I am an anti-declawer – I am not being hostile. Festive greetings, of the clawed type:-) Helen S
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As for the name calling, others – the "antis" if you will started it first.
"But THEY started it, why do I get the blame, blah blah blah…." Please….
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Before you start name calling, I never said I was enthusiastic about delawing. I said I chose to declaw and will contine to do so. I am enthusiastic about Christmas and chocolate, but not declawing. As for the name calling, others – the "antis" if you will started it first.
Not accordinging to my newsreader, and not unless "wacko" is a polite form of address where you come from. By the way, when will your lawyers be serving me the papers on that "Improper Use of an Analogy" suit? —
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As for the name calling, others – the "antis" if you will started it first. Not accordinging to my newsreader, and not unless "wacko" is a polite form of address where you come from.
Forgive the self-followup, but I must apologize for an implied error here. I just realized that Marlene called Amy a "little bitch" for expressing an opinion against declawing before she called lisaviolet a "wacko" for trying to educate people to alternatives. Sorry, my mistake. Hope this clarifies things. (She threatened to sue me before either.) —
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Before you start name calling, I never said I was enthusiastic about delawing. I said I chose to declaw and will contine to do so. I am enthusiastic about Christmas and chocolate, but not declawing. As for the name calling, others – the "antis" if you will started it first. Not accordinging to my newsreader, and not unless "wacko" is a polite form of address where you come from. By the way, when will your lawyers be serving me the papers on that "Improper Use of an Analogy" suit? —
Elisabeth, I would very much like to contribute to your defense fund. Where might I send my check? lisaviolet *snicker* — go to my website to get my real email address visit the best little cathouse in cyberspace <http://www.lisaviolet.com
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Me too. We could start a United Front Against the Brainless Suburbanites (UFABS). We could demonstrate in front of Marlene’s house, really give her something to whine about. We could call up the news and release our manifesto against rampant idiocy and Jerry-Springerism. I’m for it. 
Karen Hohne
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Me too. We could start a United Front Against the Brainless Suburbanites (UFABS). We could demonstrate in front of Marlene’s house, really give her something to whine about. We could call up the news and release our manifesto against rampant idiocy and Jerry-Springerism. I’m for it. Karen Hohne
Well, at least we know there are no BIG DOGS running loose. So, we should be safe from them. I’m waiting, anxiously, for more information about the "Improper Use of an Analogy" suit. Hey, do you think I’ve been slandered or libeled by the label of "wacko"? *snicker* lisaviolet I like my fruitcake with nuts, please. The more the better. — go to my website to get my real email address visit the best little cathouse in cyberspace <http://www.lisaviolet.com
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Hey, do you think I’ve been slandered or libeled by the label of "wacko"? *snicker* Actually, considering the source, I think this is a label you should wear with pride! Karen Hohne
Oh, thank you, I surely will. What do you think sounds better? lisaviolet wacko cat nazi or lisaviolet cat nazi wacko? LOL!!!! (How do you think they knew I was born in Churmany 45 years ago?) lisaviolet still snickering and lovin every minute of it — go to my website to get my real email address visit the best little cathouse in cyberspace <http://www.lisaviolet.com
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Hey, do you think I’ve been slandered or libeled by the label of "wacko"? *snicker*
Actually, considering the source, I think this is a label you should wear with pride! Karen Hohne
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Well, in the words of my ten year old son, "Anyone can be a boring old bottom burp – it’s much more fun to be mad." Nuff said! Whacky festive greetings with all claws intact, Helen S ( & cats) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, do you think I’ve been slandered or libeled by the label of "wacko"? *snicker* Actually, considering the source, I think this is a label you should wear with pride! Karen Hohne Oh, thank you, I surely will. What do you think sounds better? lisaviolet wacko cat nazi or lisaviolet cat nazi wacko? LOL!!!! (How do you think they knew I was born in Churmany 45 years ago?) lisaviolet still snickering and lovin every minute of it — go to my website to get my real email address visit the best little cathouse in cyberspace <http://www.lisaviolet.com
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You have a wise son. Greetings to you, too, Mrs Helen. lisaviolet – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, in the words of my ten year old son, "Anyone can be a boring old bottom burp – it’s much more fun to be mad." Nuff said! Whacky festive greetings with all claws intact, Helen S ( & cats) Hey, do you think I’ve been slandered or libeled by the label of "wacko"? *snicker* Actually, considering the source, I think this is a label you should wear with pride! Karen Hohne Oh, thank you, I surely will. What do you think sounds better? lisaviolet wacko cat nazi or lisaviolet cat nazi wacko? LOL!!!! (How do you think they knew I was born in Churmany 45 years ago?) lisaviolet still snickering and lovin every minute of it — go to my website to get my real email address visit the best little cathouse in cyberspace <http://www.lisaviolet.com
– go to my website to get my real email address visit the best little cathouse in cyberspace <http://www.lisaviolet.com
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If it solicited a few responses: fine, but the information has been exhaused, and it is just drivel at this time. It draws so much attention, why not have a list dedicated to the issue??? The people who post to this thread aren’t changing anyones minds, they are just spouting their point of view over and over and over. How is this helpful to a person who genuinely want to know the pros and cons of having you cat declawed? They are met with hostility from the anti-declawers. CM
Speaking of drivel… Maybe you ought to actually read the thread you are complaining about. The last person to ask about declawing got tons of good advice and plenty of well-wishes on applying it. Things only turned hostile when someone else popped up to announce her enthusiasm for declawing, indulge in name-calling, and threaten to sue people. But it’s us "anti-declawers" that are causing all the trouble, right? By the way, my experience has been that threads complaining about declawing discussions almost invariably turned into declawing discussion threads themselves. Congratulations on starting a new one. —
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| I totally agree that there are an excessive amount of posts on this subject- | too much. However I don’t believe that it should be "banned" from the NG. I | would just suggest moderation (and more respect when discussing this matter- | there are way too many nasty posts and personal attacks that are NOT | productive nor needed). I think if some people are going to advocate an operation which others regard as a species of unethical cruelty, there’s going to be a lot of discussion. I don’t see how it could be otherwise. Given my opinions, it would be unethical of me _not_ to refute an article promoting declawing, although I find it possible to ignore some of the dumber ones (unless they’re really funny!) Let’s note also that the subject is developing. Besides the arguments about ethics, we’ve discovered that the veterinary community, on the whole, appears to be promoting declawing, which may call for a certain amount of activism. — { http://www.etaoin.com | latest new material 11/28 <-adv’t
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Before you start name calling, I never said I was enthusiastic about delawing. I said I chose to declaw and will contine to do so. I am enthusiastic about Christmas and chocolate, but not declawing. As for the name calling, others – the "antis" if you will started it first.
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I really was not advocating censorship; perhaps "restraint" would have been a better word. In general, I think people (included me) could be pointed towards DejaNews more than we tend to do, especially if someone remembers that a certain topic had been exhaustively discussed fairly recently. And, of course, civility is always a plus. That’s one thing that I really love about this group of people (compared to some other newsgroups); there is usually a wonderful lack of name-calling. Susan L. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Plus, the subject seems to invite personal attacks and venom. Perhaps we should agree to an informal "ban" on the subject, and if someone new asks the "should I or shouldn’t I" question, just refer them to DejaNews and their vet. From what I’ve learned by calling vet’s in my area, "ask your vet" is the _last_ thing you want to tell someone who is undecided about declawing. Most vets I talked to were so declaw-happy it would turn your stomach. That’s one of the reasons I think it’s so important to educate people on the issue in this forum. The vets sure aren’t doing it. However, if anyone wishes to start their own cat-interest list where discussions of declawing are prohibited, they are welcome to do so. —
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Hey, do you think I’ve been slandered or libeled by the label of "wacko"? *snicker* Actually, considering the source, I think this is a label you should wear with pride! Karen Hohne
Libel or slander depends on whether the "labeler" made the deprecating remark orally or in writing. If you can live with it, neither matters. Consider the source…and don’t let it spoil your Holidays. — Cheers, BobH "Chicken Little only has to be right once."
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, do you think I’ve been slandered or libeled by the label of "wacko"? *snicker* Actually, considering the source, I think this is a label you should wear with pride! Karen Hohne Libel or slander depends on whether the "labeler" made the deprecating remark orally or in writing. If you can live with it, neither matters. Consider the source…and don’t let it spoil your Holidays. — Cheers, BobH "Chicken Little only has to be right once."
Yeah, you’re absolutely right, Bob. Names don’t matter, it’s what’s inside that counts. (And those two pieces of pumpkin pie and whipped cream I had for breakfast matter a lot right now. Real bad idea.) Have a wonderful, happy day. Give all your kitties big nose rubs from all of ours. One a piece, so that’s 18 from the cats and two from me. Thanks, lisaviolet — go to my website to get my real email address visit the best little cathouse in cyberspace <http://www.lisaviolet.com
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Ok-this is what I am referring to as "drivel". I value the opinion of both sides regarding de-clawing. But ultimately, this discussion (at least the ones I have read) have turned to personal attacks. There are many view points. I do have 2 de-clawed cats. This was my decision, and it was an informed decision. I think that if you lay all of your cards on the table-then let others make their own decision, your job is done. I am not essentially advocating "no declawing discusions" on this list. To me it just seems that 300 plus posts deserves its own list. Yes, I have read bits and pieces of the threads as they have been brought to the group. They all have resulted in name calling and occasionally-the subject gets changed and the subject line doesn’t. Again-I’m not advocating censorship-just restraint. Christine BTW-just because I declaw, doesn’t mean I don’t love my pets, or that I am not deserving of them.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ok-this is what I am referring to as "drivel". I value the opinion of both sides regarding de-clawing. But ultimately, this discussion (at least the ones I have read) have turned to personal attacks. There are many view points. I do have 2 de-clawed cats. This was my decision, and it was an informed decision. I think that if you lay all of your cards on the table-then let others make their own decision, your job is done. I am not essentially advocating "no declawing discusions" on this list. To me it just seems that 300 plus posts deserves its own list. Yes, I have read bits and pieces of the threads as they have been brought to the group. They all have resulted in name calling and occasionally-the subject gets changed and the subject line doesn’t. Again-I’m not advocating censorship-just restraint. Christine BTW-just because I declaw, doesn’t mean I don’t love my pets, or that I am not deserving of them.
Well, all I can give is the UK example. Here, for quite a few years, cats have been the number one choice of pet. More cats are owned as pets than any other animal. Decalwing isn’t carried out over here unless it is for a medical reason in the favour of the cat. Scratching doesn’t count as a medical reason. Go to a UK shelter and ask for a cat indicating you’ll have it declawed and you’ll be shown the exit door – minus a cat. Go to a vet and ask him or her to declaw it for a non-medical reason and you’ll be refused the procedure. In the words of my vet about declawing, "Who would want to carry out such an unnecessary procedure on a cat anyway?" Declawing cats just doesn’t form part of life with cats in the UK I am pleased to say. And to repeat – more cats are owned as pets in the UK than any other animal. Are our shelters full of cats thrown out becasue they "have claws and use them" – NO. Are cats rendered unhomeable because they have claws – NO Are cats euthanised because they have claws – NO (The vast majority of our shelkters are "no-kill" to use an American term) Cats come with claws and we learn to understand cats and train them not to scratch inappropriately. It really isn’t difficult to do – but it requires time, patience and understanding of cat behaviour. Are homes in the UK full of people scarred for life from years of scratching by uncontrollable cats with claws – NO:-) Are UK homes full of shredded furniture – NO:-) Are we so wealthy we can afford to replace our furniture frequently – NO:-) Please understand, my post here is not anti-American – it *is* anti-declawing – a horrible unnecessary mutilation of a cat by amputating part of its paws. I truly cannot understand the thinking of someone who would knowingly have part of a cat’s paws amptated for mere convenience. Sometimes people post that it’s declaw or die. I question this – if someone can’t satisfactorily own a cat without declawing it, I question whether they should consider owning a cat in the first place, perhaps a goldfish would be better suited to their needs. In the States there is a serious cat overpopulation problem, I fail to see how declawing helps this as the declaw or die advocates sometimes state – neutering and speying does, but declawing, I fail to see it. Neutering and speying stops adding to the problem, but declawing, no. No-one has a right to a pet. It has been put to me that in America, everyone has the freedom to do as they want. What a load of codswallop to try to make it so simplistic. If this was the case, there’d be no laws at all. Also, with freedom comes responsibility. Freedom to do as the individual wants without thought to the implications of the effects of actions on others isn’t freedom or democracy, it’s anarchy. What a great freeedom to have – the freedom to mutilate a pet. Personally I have no problem doing without that particular freedom. Regards, helen S
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For God’s sake, I’ve just scrolled past about 300 posts to the declawing thread. Please start your own list dedicated to that. Please! CM
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Plus, the subject seems to invite personal attacks and venom. Perhaps we should agree to an informal "ban" on the subject, and if someone new asks the "should I or shouldn’t I" question, just refer them to DejaNews and their vet. Susan L.
For God’s sake, I’ve just scrolled past about 300 posts to the declawing thread. Please start your own list dedicated to that. Please! CM
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The subject belongs in this newsgroup and what you are advocating amounts to censorship. How people conduct themselves is an entirely different matter. Monica
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Plus, the subject seems to invite personal attacks and venom. Perhaps we should agree to an informal "ban" on the subject, and if someone new asks the "should I or shouldn’t I" question, just refer them to DejaNews and their vet. Susan L. For God’s sake, I’ve just scrolled past about 300 posts to the declawing thread. Please start your own list dedicated to that. Please! CM
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Plus, the subject seems to invite personal attacks and venom. Perhaps we should agree to an informal "ban" on the subject, and if someone new asks the "should I or shouldn’t I" question, just refer them to DejaNews and their vet.
From what I’ve learned by calling vet’s in my area, "ask your vet" is the _last_ thing you want to tell someone who is undecided about declawing. Most vets I talked to were so declaw-happy it would turn your stomach. That’s one of the reasons I think it’s so important to educate people on the issue in this forum. The vets sure aren’t doing it. However, if anyone wishes to start their own cat-interest list where discussions of declawing are prohibited, they are welcome to do so. —
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I totally agree that there are an excessive amount of posts on this subject- too much. However I don’t believe that it should be "banned" from the NG. I would just suggest moderation (and more respect when discussing this matter- there are way too many nasty posts and personal attacks that are NOT productive nor needed). J.Coyer CVT – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Plus, the subject seems to invite personal attacks and venom. Perhaps we should agree to an informal "ban" on the subject, and if someone new asks the "should I or shouldn’t I" question, just refer them to DejaNews and their vet. Susan L. For God’s sake, I’ve just scrolled past about 300 posts to the declawing thread. Please start your own list dedicated to that. Please! CM
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If it solicited a few responses: fine, but the information has been exhaused, and it is just drivel at this time. It draws so much attention, why not have a list dedicated to the issue??? The people who post to this thread aren’t changing anyones minds, they are just spouting their point of view over and over and over. How is this helpful to a person who genuinely want to know the pros and cons of having you cat declawed? They are met with hostility from the anti-declawers. CM
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If it solicited a few responses: fine, but the information has been exhaused, and it is just drivel at this time. It draws so much attention, why not have a list dedicated to the issue??? The people who post to this thread aren’t changing anyones minds, they are just spouting their point of view over and over and over. How is this helpful to a person who genuinely want to know the pros and cons of having you cat declawed? They are met with hostility from the anti-declawers. CM
Just to ask you a question, Christine. Why is talk about amputating a cat’s claws and the bone to which said claws were attached – drivel? I am an anti-declawer – I am not being hostile. Festive greetings, of the clawed type:-) Helen S
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As for the name calling, others – the "antis" if you will started it first.
"But THEY started it, why do I get the blame, blah blah blah…." Please….
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Before you start name calling, I never said I was enthusiastic about delawing. I said I chose to declaw and will contine to do so. I am enthusiastic about Christmas and chocolate, but not declawing. As for the name calling, others – the "antis" if you will started it first.
Not accordinging to my newsreader, and not unless "wacko" is a polite form of address where you come from. By the way, when will your lawyers be serving me the papers on that "Improper Use of an Analogy" suit? —
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As for the name calling, others – the "antis" if you will started it first. Not accordinging to my newsreader, and not unless "wacko" is a polite form of address where you come from.
Forgive the self-followup, but I must apologize for an implied error here. I just realized that Marlene called Amy a "little bitch" for expressing an opinion against declawing before she called lisaviolet a "wacko" for trying to educate people to alternatives. Sorry, my mistake. Hope this clarifies things. (She threatened to sue me before either.) —
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Before you start name calling, I never said I was enthusiastic about delawing. I said I chose to declaw and will contine to do so. I am enthusiastic about Christmas and chocolate, but not declawing. As for the name calling, others – the "antis" if you will started it first. Not accordinging to my newsreader, and not unless "wacko" is a polite form of address where you come from. By the way, when will your lawyers be serving me the papers on that "Improper Use of an Analogy" suit? —
Elisabeth, I would very much like to contribute to your defense fund. Where might I send my check? lisaviolet *snicker* — go to my website to get my real email address visit the best little cathouse in cyberspace <http://www.lisaviolet.com
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Me too. We could start a United Front Against the Brainless Suburbanites (UFABS). We could demonstrate in front of Marlene’s house, really give her something to whine about. We could call up the news and release our manifesto against rampant idiocy and Jerry-Springerism. I’m for it. Karen Hohne
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Me too. We could start a United Front Against the Brainless Suburbanites (UFABS). We could demonstrate in front of Marlene’s house, really give her something to whine about. We could call up the news and release our manifesto against rampant idiocy and Jerry-Springerism. I’m for it. Karen Hohne
Well, at least we know there are no BIG DOGS running loose. So, we should be safe from them. I’m waiting, anxiously, for more information about the "Improper Use of an Analogy" suit. Hey, do you think I’ve been slandered or libeled by the label of "wacko"? *snicker* lisaviolet I like my fruitcake with nuts, please. The more the better. — go to my website to get my real email address visit the best little cathouse in cyberspace <http://www.lisaviolet.com
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Hey, do you think I’ve been slandered or libeled by the label of "wacko"? *snicker* Actually, considering the source, I think this is a label you should wear with pride! Karen Hohne
Oh, thank you, I surely will. What do you think sounds better? lisaviolet wacko cat nazi or lisaviolet cat nazi wacko? LOL!!!! (How do you think they knew I was born in Churmany 45 years ago?) lisaviolet still snickering and lovin every minute of it — go to my website to get my real email address visit the best little cathouse in cyberspace <http://www.lisaviolet.com
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Hey, do you think I’ve been slandered or libeled by the label of "wacko"? *snicker*
Actually, considering the source, I think this is a label you should wear with pride! Karen Hohne
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Well, in the words of my ten year old son, "Anyone can be a boring old bottom burp – it’s much more fun to be mad." Nuff said! Whacky festive greetings with all claws intact, Helen S ( & cats) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, do you think I’ve been slandered or libeled by the label of "wacko"? *snicker* Actually, considering the source, I think this is a label you should wear with pride! Karen Hohne Oh, thank you, I surely will. What do you think sounds better? lisaviolet wacko cat nazi or lisaviolet cat nazi wacko? LOL!!!! (How do you think they knew I was born in Churmany 45 years ago?) lisaviolet still snickering and lovin every minute of it — go to my website to get my real email address visit the best little cathouse in cyberspace <http://www.lisaviolet.com
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You have a wise son. Greetings to you, too, Mrs Helen. lisaviolet – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, in the words of my ten year old son, "Anyone can be a boring old bottom burp – it’s much more fun to be mad." Nuff said! Whacky festive greetings with all claws intact, Helen S ( & cats) Hey, do you think I’ve been slandered or libeled by the label of "wacko"? *snicker* Actually, considering the source, I think this is a label you should wear with pride! Karen Hohne Oh, thank you, I surely will. What do you think sounds better? lisaviolet wacko cat nazi or lisaviolet cat nazi wacko? LOL!!!! (How do you think they knew I was born in Churmany 45 years ago?) lisaviolet still snickering and lovin every minute of it — go to my website to get my real email address visit the best little cathouse in cyberspace <http://www.lisaviolet.com
– go to my website to get my real email address visit the best little cathouse in cyberspace <http://www.lisaviolet.com
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If it solicited a few responses: fine, but the information has been exhaused, and it is just drivel at this time. It draws so much attention, why not have a list dedicated to the issue??? The people who post to this thread aren’t changing anyones minds, they are just spouting their point of view over and over and over. How is this helpful to a person who genuinely want to know the pros and cons of having you cat declawed? They are met with hostility from the anti-declawers. CM
Speaking of drivel… Maybe you ought to actually read the thread you are complaining about. The last person to ask about declawing got tons of good advice and plenty of well-wishes on applying it. Things only turned hostile when someone else popped up to announce her enthusiasm for declawing, indulge in name-calling, and threaten to sue people. But it’s us "anti-declawers" that are causing all the trouble, right? By the way, my experience has been that threads complaining about declawing discussions almost invariably turned into declawing discussion threads themselves. Congratulations on starting a new one. —
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| I totally agree that there are an excessive amount of posts on this subject- | too much. However I don’t believe that it should be "banned" from the NG. I | would just suggest moderation (and more respect when discussing this matter- | there are way too many nasty posts and personal attacks that are NOT | productive nor needed). I think if some people are going to advocate an operation which others regard as a species of unethical cruelty, there’s going to be a lot of discussion. I don’t see how it could be otherwise. Given my opinions, it would be unethical of me _not_ to refute an article promoting declawing, although I find it possible to ignore some of the dumber ones (unless they’re really funny!) Let’s note also that the subject is developing. Besides the arguments about ethics, we’ve discovered that the veterinary community, on the whole, appears to be promoting declawing, which may call for a certain amount of activism. — { http://www.etaoin.com | latest new material 11/28 <-adv’t
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Before you start name calling, I never said I was enthusiastic about delawing. I said I chose to declaw and will contine to do so. I am enthusiastic about Christmas and chocolate, but not declawing. As for the name calling, others – the "antis" if you will started it first.
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I really was not advocating censorship; perhaps "restraint" would have been a better word. In general, I think people (included me) could be pointed towards DejaNews more than we tend to do, especially if someone remembers that a certain topic had been exhaustively discussed fairly recently. And, of course, civility is always a plus. That’s one thing that I really love about this group of people (compared to some other newsgroups); there is usually a wonderful lack of name-calling. Susan L. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Plus, the subject seems to invite personal attacks and venom. Perhaps we should agree to an informal "ban" on the subject, and if someone new asks the "should I or shouldn’t I" question, just refer them to DejaNews and their vet. From what I’ve learned by calling vet’s in my area, "ask your vet" is the _last_ thing you want to tell someone who is undecided about declawing. Most vets I talked to were so declaw-happy it would turn your stomach. That’s one of the reasons I think it’s so important to educate people on the issue in this forum. The vets sure aren’t doing it. However, if anyone wishes to start their own cat-interest list where discussions of declawing are prohibited, they are welcome to do so. —
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Hey, do you think I’ve been slandered or libeled by the label of "wacko"? *snicker* Actually, considering the source, I think this is a label you should wear with pride! Karen Hohne
Libel or slander depends on whether the "labeler" made the deprecating remark orally or in writing. If you can live with it, neither matters. Consider the source…and don’t let it spoil your Holidays. — Cheers, BobH "Chicken Little only has to be right once."
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, do you think I’ve been slandered or libeled by the label of "wacko"? *snicker* Actually, considering the source, I think this is a label you should wear with pride! Karen Hohne Libel or slander depends on whether the "labeler" made the deprecating remark orally or in writing. If you can live with it, neither matters. Consider the source…and don’t let it spoil your Holidays. — Cheers, BobH "Chicken Little only has to be right once."
Yeah, you’re absolutely right, Bob. Names don’t matter, it’s what’s inside that counts. (And those two pieces of pumpkin pie and whipped cream I had for breakfast matter a lot right now. Real bad idea.) Have a wonderful, happy day. Give all your kitties big nose rubs from all of ours. One a piece, so that’s 18 from the cats and two from me. Thanks, lisaviolet — go to my website to get my real email address visit the best little cathouse in cyberspace <http://www.lisaviolet.com
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Ok-this is what I am referring to as "drivel". I value the opinion of both sides regarding de-clawing. But ultimately, this discussion (at least the ones I have read) have turned to personal attacks. There are many view points. I do have 2 de-clawed cats. This was my decision, and it was an informed decision. I think that if you lay all of your cards on the table-then let others make their own decision, your job is done. I am not essentially advocating "no declawing discusions" on this list. To me it just seems that 300 plus posts deserves its own list. Yes, I have read bits and pieces of the threads as they have been brought to the group. They all have resulted in name calling and occasionally-the subject gets changed and the subject line doesn’t. Again-I’m not advocating censorship-just restraint. Christine BTW-just because I declaw, doesn’t mean I don’t love my pets, or that I am not deserving of them.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ok-this is what I am referring to as "drivel". I value the opinion of both sides regarding de-clawing. But ultimately, this discussion (at least the ones I have read) have turned to personal attacks. There are many view points. I do have 2 de-clawed cats. This was my decision, and it was an informed decision. I think that if you lay all of your cards on the table-then let others make their own decision, your job is done. I am not essentially advocating "no declawing discusions" on this list. To me it just seems that 300 plus posts deserves its own list. Yes, I have read bits and pieces of the threads as they have been brought to the group. They all have resulted in name calling and occasionally-the subject gets changed and the subject line doesn’t. Again-I’m not advocating censorship-just restraint. Christine BTW-just because I declaw, doesn’t mean I don’t love my pets, or that I am not deserving of them.
Well, all I can give is the UK example. Here, for quite a few years, cats have been the number one choice of pet. More cats are owned as pets than any other animal. Decalwing isn’t carried out over here unless it is for a medical reason in the favour of the cat. Scratching doesn’t count as a medical reason. Go to a UK shelter and ask for a cat indicating you’ll have it declawed and you’ll be shown the exit door – minus a cat. Go to a vet and ask him or her to declaw it for a non-medical reason and you’ll be refused the procedure. In the words of my vet about declawing, "Who would want to carry out such an unnecessary procedure on a cat anyway?" Declawing cats just doesn’t form part of life with cats in the UK I am pleased to say. And to repeat – more cats are owned as pets in the UK than any other animal. Are our shelters full of cats thrown out becasue they "have claws and use them" – NO. Are cats rendered unhomeable because they have claws – NO Are cats euthanised because they have claws – NO (The vast majority of our shelkters are "no-kill" to use an American term) Cats come with claws and we learn to understand cats and train them not to scratch inappropriately. It really isn’t difficult to do – but it requires time, patience and understanding of cat behaviour. Are homes in the UK full of people scarred for life from years of scratching by uncontrollable cats with claws – NO:-) Are UK homes full of shredded furniture – NO:-) Are we so wealthy we can afford to replace our furniture frequently – NO:-) Please understand, my post here is not anti-American – it *is* anti-declawing – a horrible unnecessary mutilation of a cat by amputating part of its paws. I truly cannot understand the thinking of someone who would knowingly have part of a cat’s paws amptated for mere convenience. Sometimes people post that it’s declaw or die. I question this – if someone can’t satisfactorily own a cat without declawing it, I question whether they should consider owning a cat in the first place, perhaps a goldfish would be better suited to their needs. In the States there is a serious cat overpopulation problem, I fail to see how declawing helps this as the declaw or die advocates sometimes state – neutering and speying does, but declawing, I fail to see it. Neutering and speying stops adding to the problem, but declawing, no. No-one has a right to a pet. It has been put to me that in America, everyone has the freedom to do as they want. What a load of codswallop to try to make it so simplistic. If this was the case, there’d be no laws at all. Also, with freedom comes responsibility. Freedom to do as the individual wants without thought to the implications of the effects of actions on others isn’t freedom or democracy, it’s anarchy. What a great freeedom to have – the freedom to mutilate a pet. Personally I have no problem doing without that particular freedom. Regards, helen S
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For God’s sake, I’ve just scrolled past about 300 posts to the declawing thread. Please start your own list dedicated to that. Please! CM
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Plus, the subject seems to invite personal attacks and venom. Perhaps we should agree to an informal "ban" on the subject, and if someone new asks the "should I or shouldn’t I" question, just refer them to DejaNews and their vet. Susan L.
For God’s sake, I’ve just scrolled past about 300 posts to the declawing thread. Please start your own list dedicated to that. Please! CM
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The subject belongs in this newsgroup and what you are advocating amounts to censorship. How people conduct themselves is an entirely different matter. Monica
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Plus, the subject seems to invite personal attacks and venom. Perhaps we should agree to an informal "ban" on the subject, and if someone new asks the "should I or shouldn’t I" question, just refer them to DejaNews and their vet. Susan L. For God’s sake, I’ve just scrolled past about 300 posts to the declawing thread. Please start your own list dedicated to that. Please! CM
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Plus, the subject seems to invite personal attacks and venom. Perhaps we should agree to an informal "ban" on the subject, and if someone new asks the "should I or shouldn’t I" question, just refer them to DejaNews and their vet.
From what I’ve learned by calling vet’s in my area, "ask your vet" is the _last_ thing you want to tell someone who is undecided about declawing. Most vets I talked to were so declaw-happy it would turn your stomach. That’s one of the reasons I think it’s so important to educate people on the issue in this forum. The vets sure aren’t doing it. However, if anyone wishes to start their own cat-interest list where discussions of declawing are prohibited, they are welcome to do so. —
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I totally agree that there are an excessive amount of posts on this subject- too much. However I don’t believe that it should be "banned" from the NG. I would just suggest moderation (and more respect when discussing this matter- there are way too many nasty posts and personal attacks that are NOT productive nor needed). J.Coyer CVT – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Plus, the subject seems to invite personal attacks and venom. Perhaps we should agree to an informal "ban" on the subject, and if someone new asks the "should I or shouldn’t I" question, just refer them to DejaNews and their vet. Susan L. For God’s sake, I’ve just scrolled past about 300 posts to the declawing thread. Please start your own list dedicated to that. Please! CM
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If it solicited a few responses: fine, but the information has been exhaused, and it is just drivel at this time. It draws so much attention, why not have a list dedicated to the issue??? The people who post to this thread aren’t changing anyones minds, they are just spouting their point of view over and over and over. How is this helpful to a person who genuinely want to know the pros and cons of having you cat declawed? They are met with hostility from the anti-declawers. CM
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If it solicited a few responses: fine, but the information has been exhaused, and it is just drivel at this time. It draws so much attention, why not have a list dedicated to the issue??? The people who post to this thread aren’t changing anyones minds, they are just spouting their point of view over and over and over. How is this helpful to a person who genuinely want to know the pros and cons of having you cat declawed? They are met with hostility from the anti-declawers. CM
Just to ask you a question, Christine. Why is talk about amputating a cat’s claws and the bone to which said claws were attached – drivel? I am an anti-declawer – I am not being hostile. Festive greetings, of the clawed type:-) Helen S
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As for the name calling, others – the "antis" if you will started it first.
"But THEY started it, why do I get the blame, blah blah blah…." Please….
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Before you start name calling, I never said I was enthusiastic about delawing. I said I chose to declaw and will contine to do so. I am enthusiastic about Christmas and chocolate, but not declawing. As for the name calling, others – the "antis" if you will started it first.
Not accordinging to my newsreader, and not unless "wacko" is a polite form of address where you come from. By the way, when will your lawyers be serving me the papers on that "Improper Use of an Analogy" suit? —
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As for the name calling, others – the "antis" if you will started it first. Not accordinging to my newsreader, and not unless "wacko" is a polite form of address where you come from.
Forgive the self-followup, but I must apologize for an implied error here. I just realized that Marlene called Amy a "little bitch" for expressing an opinion against declawing before she called lisaviolet a "wacko" for trying to educate people to alternatives. Sorry, my mistake. Hope this clarifies things. (She threatened to sue me before either.) —
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Before you start name calling, I never said I was enthusiastic about delawing. I said I chose to declaw and will contine to do so. I am enthusiastic about Christmas and chocolate, but not declawing. As for the name calling, others – the "antis" if you will started it first. Not accordinging to my newsreader, and not unless "wacko" is a polite form of address where you come from. By the way, when will your lawyers be serving me the papers on that "Improper Use of an Analogy" suit? —
Elisabeth, I would very much like to contribute to your defense fund. Where might I send my check? lisaviolet *snicker* — go to my website to get my real email address visit the best little cathouse in cyberspace <http://www.lisaviolet.com
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Me too. We could start a United Front Against the Brainless Suburbanites (UFABS). We could demonstrate in front of Marlene’s house, really give her something to whine about. We could call up the news and release our manifesto against rampant idiocy and Jerry-Springerism. I’m for it. Karen Hohne
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Me too. We could start a United Front Against the Brainless Suburbanites (UFABS). We could demonstrate in front of Marlene’s house, really give her something to whine about. We could call up the news and release our manifesto against rampant idiocy and Jerry-Springerism. I’m for it. Karen Hohne
Well, at least we know there are no BIG DOGS running loose. So, we should be safe from them. I’m waiting, anxiously, for more information about the "Improper Use of an Analogy" suit. Hey, do you think I’ve been slandered or libeled by the label of "wacko"? *snicker* lisaviolet I like my fruitcake with nuts, please. The more the better. — go to my website to get my real email address visit the best little cathouse in cyberspace <http://www.lisaviolet.com
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Hey, do you think I’ve been slandered or libeled by the label of "wacko"? *snicker* Actually, considering the source, I think this is a label you should wear with pride! Karen Hohne
Oh, thank you, I surely will. What do you think sounds better? lisaviolet wacko cat nazi or lisaviolet cat nazi wacko? LOL!!!! (How do you think they knew I was born in Churmany 45 years ago?) lisaviolet still snickering and lovin every minute of it — go to my website to get my real email address visit the best little cathouse in cyberspace <http://www.lisaviolet.com
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Hey, do you think I’ve been slandered or libeled by the label of "wacko"? *snicker*
Actually, considering the source, I think this is a label you should wear with pride! Karen Hohne
Response:
Well, in the words of my ten year old son, "Anyone can be a boring old bottom burp – it’s much more fun to be mad." Nuff said! Whacky festive greetings with all claws intact, Helen S ( & cats) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, do you think I’ve been slandered or libeled by the label of "wacko"? *snicker* Actually, considering the source, I think this is a label you should wear with pride! Karen Hohne Oh, thank you, I surely will. What do you think sounds better? lisaviolet wacko cat nazi or lisaviolet cat nazi wacko? LOL!!!! (How do you think they knew I was born in Churmany 45 years ago?) lisaviolet still snickering and lovin every minute of it — go to my website to get my real email address visit the best little cathouse in cyberspace <http://www.lisaviolet.com
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You have a wise son. Greetings to you, too, Mrs Helen. lisaviolet – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, in the words of my ten year old son, "Anyone can be a boring old bottom burp – it’s much more fun to be mad." Nuff said! Whacky festive greetings with all claws intact, Helen S ( & cats) Hey, do you think I’ve been slandered or libeled by the label of "wacko"? *snicker* Actually, considering the source, I think this is a label you should wear with pride! Karen Hohne Oh, thank you, I surely will. What do you think sounds better? lisaviolet wacko cat nazi or lisaviolet cat nazi wacko? LOL!!!! (How do you think they knew I was born in Churmany 45 years ago?) lisaviolet still snickering and lovin every minute of it — go to my website to get my real email address visit the best little cathouse in cyberspace <http://www.lisaviolet.com
– go to my website to get my real email address visit the best little cathouse in cyberspace <http://www.lisaviolet.com
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If it solicited a few responses: fine, but the information has been exhaused, and it is just drivel at this time. It draws so much attention, why not have a list dedicated to the issue??? The people who post to this thread aren’t changing anyones minds, they are just spouting their point of view over and over and over. How is this helpful to a person who genuinely want to know the pros and cons of having you cat declawed? They are met with hostility from the anti-declawers. CM
Speaking of drivel… Maybe you ought to actually read the thread you are complaining about. The last person to ask about declawing got tons of good advice and plenty of well-wishes on applying it. Things only turned hostile when someone else popped up to announce her enthusiasm for declawing, indulge in name-calling, and threaten to sue people. But it’s us "anti-declawers" that are causing all the trouble, right? By the way, my experience has been that threads complaining about declawing discussions almost invariably turned into declawing discussion threads themselves. Congratulations on starting a new one. —
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| I totally agree that there are an excessive amount of posts on this subject- | too much. However I don’t believe that it should be "banned" from the NG. I | would just suggest moderation (and more respect when discussing this matter- | there are way too many nasty posts and personal attacks that are NOT | productive nor needed). I think if some people are going to advocate an operation which others regard as a species of unethical cruelty, there’s going to be a lot of discussion. I don’t see how it could be otherwise. Given my opinions, it would be unethical of me _not_ to refute an article promoting declawing, although I find it possible to ignore some of the dumber ones (unless they’re really funny!) Let’s note also that the subject is developing. Besides the arguments about ethics, we’ve discovered that the veterinary community, on the whole, appears to be promoting declawing, which may call for a certain amount of activism. — { http://www.etaoin.com | latest new material 11/28 <-adv’t
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Before you start name calling, I never said I was enthusiastic about delawing. I said I chose to declaw and will contine to do so. I am enthusiastic about Christmas and chocolate, but not declawing. As for the name calling, others – the "antis" if you will started it first.
Response:
I really was not advocating censorship; perhaps "restraint" would have been a better word. In general, I think people (included me) could be pointed towards DejaNews more than we tend to do, especially if someone remembers that a certain topic had been exhaustively discussed fairly recently. And, of course, civility is always a plus. That’s one thing that I really love about this group of people (compared to some other newsgroups); there is usually a wonderful lack of name-calling. Susan L. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Plus, the subject seems to invite personal attacks and venom. Perhaps we should agree to an informal "ban" on the subject, and if someone new asks the "should I or shouldn’t I" question, just refer them to DejaNews and their vet. From what I’ve learned by calling vet’s in my area, "ask your vet" is the _last_ thing you want to tell someone who is undecided about declawing. Most vets I talked to were so declaw-happy it would turn your stomach. That’s one of the reasons I think it’s so important to educate people on the issue in this forum. The vets sure aren’t doing it. However, if anyone wishes to start their own cat-interest list where discussions of declawing are prohibited, they are welcome to do so. —
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Question:
(AliciaKLa) writes: **TxCARE believes that during the legislative session, **IF** the need arises, any alternative bill language or other decisions such as withdrawing the bill should be discussed among the individuals who will be impacted by an adoptee access law …ie, individuals touched by a Texas adoption.
Well, fair enough considering the secessionist tendencies of Texans, but why then would you expect help, or even an endorsement, from outsiders? **If you read the TxCARE mission/vision statements on our website, you will have no doubts about where our hearts’ desire lies.
But are you willing to settle for less? It sure sounds to me like you’re trying to keep that as an option. Question: Why is Bastard Nation trying to destroy the credibility of HB 13, a bill that promises exactly what they want?
My guess would be that they think you’ll compromise when the chips are down. I don’t find that your bill has a shitload of credibility after reading your equivocating post. I appreciate Bastard Nation’s uncompromising position and hope they stick to it. whoever It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion, It is by the beans of java that thoughts acquire speed, The hands develop shaking, The shaking becomes a warning, It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
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**Please feel free to forward this reply** RE the statement: <<articles by TxCare spokeswoman Alicia Lanier, which support a system of vetoes (see her recent article in the CUB Communicator), read the article or read something into it that I did not say and certainly did not intend.
Read it. If that’s not waht you intended, then it was poorly written. In addition, Texas adoption activists and friends of TxCARE know these facts:
The facts are, TxCare is refusing to say that they’ll pull the bill if veto provisions are added. That’s a problem, for obvious reasons. You’ve stated that TxCare has not decided whether or not they’ll support vetoes, but yet you expect everyone to jump on board because it’s your "heart’s desire". We’re activists here. TX adoptees depend on us to give them an accurate read. We think your bill is great. We hope that it passes as is. We want to tell adoptees to support you in your efforts. What we don’t want is for a bunch of people to get screwed over a la Delaware, where they write to their legislators and expend energy to help get a bill passed, only to have it at the last minute completely gutted with anti-adoptee provisions in the form of disclosure vetoes. Alicia, if you look at this objectively, I’m sure that you will realize that it is only fair to everyone that TxCare is upfront about what they will and will not accept in amendments before they ask people to support their efforts. No other effective organization or group expects people to sign on blind. We know what you *want*, we know what your *intentions* are, what we want to know is, what will you DO if veto amendments are proposed and pass. Here in WA, and in other legislative efforts, we wrote up something that said we had told our legislative sponsors to pull the bill in the event that veto amendments were attached. We were then able to tell people what they were supporting when they wrote in favor of our legislation because they knew upfront that it would never turn into something they could not support. Shea – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -**HB 13 says nothing about contact vetos and HB 13 is the bill that TxCARE helped write and will support. **TxCARE did NOT compromise during the last Legislative session when we supported HB 1835, also an "unconditional access" adoptee rights bill. **There are NO vetoes of any kind in the adoptee rights planks in either the Republican or Democratic Party Platforms. **TxCARE leaders have never taken a public stance about *compromise* legislation because the Adoptee Rights Resolution and HB 13 have consistently SHOWN WHAT WE SUPPORT – unconditional access for adult adoptees to their original birth certificates and court records. **There have been no *public statements* by TxCARE Board members about supporting contact vetoes or any other alternatives. **TxCARE believes that during the legislative session, **IF** the need arises, any alternative bill language or other decisions such as withdrawing the bill should be discussed among the individuals who will be impacted by an adoptee access law …ie, individuals touched by a Texas adoption. TxCARE- Talk and TxCARE’s e-mail database provides us with the mechanism for obtaining such feedback very quickly. **If you read the TxCARE mission/vision statements on our website, you will have no doubts about where our hearts’ desire lies. Question: Why is Bastard Nation trying to destroy the credibility of HB 13, a bill that promises exactly what they want? Alicia Lanier President, TxCARE Visit http://www.txcare.org to see the full text of Texas House Bill 13 – an adoptee rights bill that would give Texas adoptees unconditional access to their birth certificates.
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Feel free to distribute to lists and online forums as you see fit. Bastard Nation is pleased that Texas is the next state to consider unconditional access for adult adoptees. However, TxCare has not expressed their intention to withdraw the bill should anti-adoptee veto clauses be added. Furthermore, in light of public statements and articles by TxCare spokeswoman Alicia Lanier, which support a system of vetoes (see her recent article in the CUB Communicator), at this time Bastard Nation cannot endorse or assist in the TxCare effort. With the passage of Measure 58 in Oregon, we hope that adoption activists will recognize that unconditional access is not only possible, it is the only kind of legislation that serves the dignity and rights of adoptees. Just as important, it is simply good activist strategy to decide as an organization what you *will* and *will not* accept should amendments be proposed to your legislation. Until TxCare does that, or makes the reform community aware of their decisions in this regard, we urge caution in supporting their bills. Please see the Bastard Nation position papers to learn about anti-adoptee provisions such as contact and disclosure vetoes. http://www.bastards.org/activism/position.htm See the Delaware pages for an object lesson in tactical activism. http://www.bastards.org/activism/de/de2.htm Thank you for supporting adoptee rights and dignity. Sincerely, The Bastard Nation Executive Committee http://www.bastards.org/
Response:
**Please feel free to forward this reply** RE the statement: <<articles by TxCare spokeswoman Alicia Lanier, which support a system of vetoes (see her recent article in the CUB Communicator), read the article or read something into it that I did not say and certainly did not intend. In addition, Texas adoption activists and friends of TxCARE know these facts: **HB 13 says nothing about contact vetos and HB 13 is the bill that TxCARE helped write and will support. **TxCARE did NOT compromise during the last Legislative session when we supported HB 1835, also an "unconditional access" adoptee rights bill. **There are NO vetoes of any kind in the adoptee rights planks in either the Republican or Democratic Party Platforms. **TxCARE leaders have never taken a public stance about *compromise* legislation because the Adoptee Rights Resolution and HB 13 have consistently SHOWN WHAT WE SUPPORT – unconditional access for adult adoptees to their original birth certificates and court records. **There have been no *public statements* by TxCARE Board members about supporting contact vetoes or any other alternatives. **TxCARE believes that during the legislative session, **IF** the need arises, any alternative bill language or other decisions such as withdrawing the bill should be discussed among the individuals who will be impacted by an adoptee access law …ie, individuals touched by a Texas adoption. TxCARE- Talk and TxCARE’s e-mail database provides us with the mechanism for obtaining such feedback very quickly. **If you read the TxCARE mission/vision statements on our website, you will have no doubts about where our hearts’ desire lies. Question: Why is Bastard Nation trying to destroy the credibility of HB 13, a bill that promises exactly what they want? Alicia Lanier President, TxCARE Visit http://www.txcare.org to see the full text of Texas House Bill 13 – an adoptee rights bill that would give Texas adoptees unconditional access to their birth certificates.
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Question:
snip… $700 Million Peak Sales
Here we agree. First, I think Sustiva is a modestly important addition to the AIDS arsenal. It has some side effects that are unpleasant. It can cause a positive test results on a marijuana drug test. It is a non-nucleoside reverse transcriptase inhibitor (NNRTI) like nevirapine or delavirdine. These drugs are easily made and quite cheap. Despite this, DuPont has decided to go for greed and destroy ADAPs, MEDICAID and insurance coverage by charging something like $5,000/year. Many folks object to this unjustified orgy of greed. George M. Carter [The Endorsement list is still in development] FAIR PRICE WORKING GROUP C O M M U N I T Y A L E R T – D R U G P R I C I N G Spare the Protease but Keep the Price? Please consider having your organization sign onto the attached Consensus Statement. It concerns the eventual price of two new potent drugs: the nucleoside analog abacavir (Ziagen) and the nNRTI efavirenz (Sustiva). Both of these compounds are under FDA review and no doubt will soon enter the market. There has been considerable speculation that either or both will be priced far higher than other nukes and nNRTIs, perhaps even in the range of the protease inhibitors that they would supplement or sometimes replace. Such a move would substantially increase the cost of health care for a great number of people with HIV. The ability of public programs such as ADAP and Medicaid to support HIV treatment would be further limited, and even private HMOs may object to prescribing these new drugs. We need to send a loud, clear and united message immediately before final pricing decisions are made by the sponsors, Dupont Pharma and Glaxo Wellcome. We hope that this statement becomes the first step in a wider campaign over the cost of HIV treatments to be directed at all sponsors. Some companies in the past year have quietly raised prices on drugs that already bore high price tags, without strong protest from the HIV-affected community. There is no justification for these increases other than "what the market will bear." But as combination regimens become ever more elaborate, people with HIV as well as their third-party payers will likely face medical costs over the course of a lifetime rising into the stratosphere. The pharmaceutical industry, meanwhile, stands to reap a windfall. Companies have less justification for squeezing high short-term profits from their drugs since people will be using them for longer periods of time. Make no mistake about it — each unfair pricing action cuts off the lifeline of treatment for another portion of the population! Please join with us in putting this urgent issue on the front burner of AIDS activism and support our efforts by asking your agency or organization to sign-on to the attached consensus statement now. Also, please watch for further communiqu
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