Filed under: Community Activism
Question:
Feminist icon Andrea Dworkin dies Simon Jeffery Monday April 11, 2005 Andrea Dworkin, 1946-2005 The American feminist icon, writer and campaigner Andrea Dworkin, who linked pornography to rape and violence, died at the weekend, her agent said today. She was 59 years old. Her radical-feminist critique of pornography began with her first book, Woman Hating, published when she was 27. She campaigned frequently on the subject, helping to draft a law in 1983 that defined pornography as a civil rights violation against women. The law, later overturned by an appeal court as unconstitutional, was inspired by the case of Linda Marchiano, who as Linda Lovelace said she had had been violently coerced into pornography, including the film Deep Throat, but had no recourse to the courts. The drive of Ms Dworkin’s writing and activism was to break the silence around violence against women, but her wider career saw her become a figure of adulation and loathing in equal measure. To opponents she was an archetypal Man-hater, killjoy and proponent of censorship, but supporters rallied to her impassioned lectures and books. Gloria Steinem, a fellow feminist, said she was one of a handful of writers each century "who help the human race to evolve". Ms Dworkin’s life as a political activist began early. In 1965, when she was 18, she was arrested at the US mission to the United Nations, protesting against the Vietnam war. She was sent to the New York City Women’s House of Detention, where she was given a brutal internal examination. Her testimony about the experience was reported worldwide and helped to bring public pressure to bear to close the prison. An unmarked community garden now grows where it once stood. As well as political works, Ms Dworkin was also the author of two novels and a frequent contributor to magazines and newspapers, including the Guardian. Ms Dworkin’s agent, Elaine Markson, said the cause of death was not known, but she had become increasingly frail as her knees had weakened and she suffered a series of falls. She died at the home in Washington DC she shared with John Stoltenberg, her partner of 30 years and husband since 1998.
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On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:46:00 -0500, Lady Veteran wrote:
Women sell their > bodies for money for all kinds of reasons. Most of the time it is for > a kid they ended up with because the dick left and took her man with > it.
Oh please. I’ve come to expect stupid beyond-belief sexist excusal generalizations from you, but this exceeds my lowest expectations. Once an ugly fat feminist told me a funny story, about Playboy coming to her college to "recruit" or take test photos. This cow and her too-ugly-to-get-into-Playboy friends protested, in small numbers, in front of the building where the "auditons" were taking place. So, the pretty girls merely went to the back door of the auditorium. The line stretched for half a block. Dozens of girls that had NO CHILDREN wanted to pose naked for the money and the attention.
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steve wrote: > Gotta a problem there hardpan, Darkfalz said that porno should be > illegal and the truth is that I think it might be a good idea. 25 years > ago I would be enraged at such an idea but now after the Lord I realize > that nekid women with nacklices of glass beads are not wholesome. > Outlaw it all it is not like I get the real stuff anyway. Time to
pray. Idiots like Oprah will always pretend pornography is all about exploitation of women by evil men (thus absolving women of the responsibility), but we all know that isn’t true. Women are the BIG winners out of pornography. Consider: When women threw away their morals, they suddenly found they could make crazy amounts of money for doing nothing more than letting someone film them getting fucked. Pornography creates a demand for a woman bereft of brains or intelligence, so all a woman has to do to attract men these days is wear makeup and dress like a slut. Which the vast majority of them, unfortunately, do. Women themselves, as a whole, create the demand for pornography. When they become insanely shallow they pretty much forced a large proportion of men into prostitution/pornography as the only form of "female affection" they are ever going to get. Thus, the industry had to boom. I shudder when I think of the sheer numbers of women who have, at some time or another, sold their body for money. It must be at least 40% of women under the age of 30 today. And it’s rising all the time. So in short, women are creating a demand and then cashing in on it. Big time. At the total expense of their morals and dignity, but those things no longer mean anything to women. Or do they? See, women for whatever reason still don’t want to give up this fantasy of "moral superiority" they have over men. This is the reason why pornography (and prostitution) is depicted as stated above, as exploitation of innocent, unsuspecting women by evil men (yeah right). And also the reason why when women refuse to act morally, they want to CHANGE WHAT MORAL MEANS. They want to "ban" labels like "slut". Yeah, good luck with that, but it reflects the mind of the female. I’ll do the most degrading things on earth for money but if you dare to judge me, you’re a thousands times worse than I am. Uh, right. Anyway, good riddance to Dworkin. I hope hell is hot enough for her.
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Dworkin another wigged out feminist agreed but?? Pornography being illegal would be o.k because the stuff gets worse and worse. The govt. seems to have no problem taking half my money in taxes so why can’t the porn producers and girls flip burgers or somthing for a living and stop perverting the youth and my living space, bring back the 50’s or early 60’s? The culture seems to get more perverted everyday and the facts are that every great culture has had a puritanical streak at least in the beginning of its greatness and they all kept their pervs in line. Australia seems to be hyper sexual, how can you not get a date there?
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Skinner the conversation could go like this. What is that peace of smoldering toast on the pavement? That is not burnt toast, it’s Winston he, finally went to far. Oh great it looks like the windows were blown out of my car and my favorite rose bush is horribly seared, it’s to bad he was’nt standing farther away.
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A correction! I think in the above scenario the Winston character really should be Dustbin and not the ordinary agnostic lib Winston which you can find by the millions all over. To many of them for wide spread lightning use.
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On 13 Apr 2005 07:26:54 -0700, "Winston" <sumbu…@yahoo.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >I hate to break it to you, but >> >-invisible ghosts impregnating virgins >> >-people turning into salt >> >-talking snakes >> >-talking donkeys >> >-talking bushes >> >-men living inside whales >> >-people coming back from the dead >> >-people parting the sea >> >-people walking on water >> >-etc, etc, etc…… >> >……are FICTION. >> Do me a favor there pal….. Go stand WAY over there……… >> I don;t want a glancing blow to hit me by mistake. >> Don’y you have any faith in anything bigger than yourself? >A glancing blow? Like from a lightning bolt? LOL! Don’t be so silly and >superstitious. I’m no more afraid of your god than you are of Thor or >Vishnu or Zeus. They are ALL fictional deities created by people. >The "faith" you describe is believing something for which there is no >evidence. Something completely fabricated and unsubstantiated. >No. I don’t have this kind of faith. I find it unreasonable. If there >isn’t any evidence of human interaction with a "higher power" or deity >of some kind, then why should we assume there is? I’m still here after >criticizing the Bible. Why wasn’t I punished? Why do people offer up >prayers, only to get nothing but silence in return? Why should people >continue to place their hopes on something they can’t see, instead of >relying on themselves and their fellow humans? >This kind of faith will get us nowhere, and since there is such >diversity in religious faith on this planet, it will continue to be a >source of conflict forever. I think a naturalistic worldview makes more >sense. We know what we know, and what we don’t, we don’t. I’m okay with >not knowing what created everything, or what lies beyond our visible >universe, or whatever. Why do we need an explanation?
Then you have no real faith. Faith means beleiving in something you really can’t explain. I mean if you know that flame is going to burn you every time you put your hand in it then you have knowledge… not faith. Faith is believing that the flame was put there to keep you warm. Why weren’t you punished? Who says you weren’t? If you want to put it in more earthly terms… ever bought a loosing lottery ticket? Maybe that was it. Personally I believe your judgement and punishment/reward will come when you stand at the foot of God and are judged for your life. And I pray to show homage and honor to God. It is a common misconception by those ignorant to what faith is to believe that prayer is for personal gain. It is not. I NEVER pray for any personal benifit. I might pray for somebody else to have their pain eased or their life enlightened… but never for anything for myself. That’s not the way I learned God works. You might think this kind of faith gets you nowhere…. I hope that is not the case for you. As for me, I hope it gets me somewhere better than this life. I hope you will get there too…. but I suspect that you believe that when you die, that’s it…. nothing more. That’s fine for you… but I fear for you you are wrong. You are free to think what ever you care to think friend. The big question is…. do you feel that the rest of us should believe as you? Or do you respect our right to believe in whatever manner we wish? If you agree with the latter then you are a liar. You have already berated my beliefs and my right to think and believe in any manner I wish.
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Winston you just said that you don’t know so how do you know that what is fiction besides obvious stuff like the tooth fairy, easter bunny and the moon being made out of blue cheese? You seem to want an explanation but if you were the Big guy would you give a bloke of your sort an explanation when you have such a disrectful attitude. If I was God I would just giggle at you and not throw a lightning bolt at you but that is just me.
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On 12 Apr 2005 04:19:05 -0700, "Winston" <sumbu…@yahoo.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->steve wrote: >> Gotta a problem there hardpan, Darkfalz said that porno should be >> illegal and the truth is that I think it might be a good idea. 25 >years >> ago I would be enraged at such an idea but now after the Lord I >realize >> that nekid women with nacklices of glass beads are not wholesome. >> Outlaw it all it is not like I get the real stuff anyway. Time to >pray. >Are you serious? >The "Lord"? >I hate to break it to you, but >-invisible ghosts impregnating virgins >-people turning into salt >-talking snakes >-talking donkeys >-talking bushes >-men living inside whales >-people coming back from the dead >-people parting the sea >-people walking on water >-etc, etc, etc…… >……are FICTION.
Do me a favor there pal….. Go stand WAY over there……… I don;t want a glancing blow to hit me by mistake. Don’y you have any faith in anything bigger than yourself?
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dustbin wrote: > Winston wrote: > > steve wrote: > > > Gotta a problem there hardpan, Darkfalz said that porno should be > > > illegal and the truth is that I think it might be a good idea. 25 > > years > > > ago I would be enraged at such an idea but now after the Lord I > > realize > > > that nekid women with nacklices of glass beads are not wholesome. > > > Outlaw it all it is not like I get the real stuff anyway. Time to > > pray. > > Are you serious? > > The "Lord"? > > I hate to break it to you, but > > -invisible ghosts impregnating virgins > > -people turning into salt > > -talking snakes > > -talking donkeys > > -talking bushes > > -men living inside whales > > -people coming back from the dead > > -people parting the sea > > -people walking on water > > -etc, etc, etc…… > > …….are FICTION. > I keep telling my girlfriend that what comes out the end of my cock > is the holy spirit; but I’ve never got her drunk enough to believe it. > D.
oh dats why wen we hace zee sect I yeell owt OMG! — ———————————————————————— Ms Pnoopie Pnats Usnet Legend http://mspoopiepants.blogspot.com/ ———————————————————————— —————- ———————————————————————— —————
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steve wrote: > I am too tired to google and I have been gone awhile. Is Vic a broken > glass bead ? I am curious just to lazy to google and search. If it is > real bad he can be a broken glass turd if he is o.k he can be a cubic > zirconium. (I think thats glass) Are you with him? pnats?
He ist a diamondee! and yes I am with heems. — ———————————————————————— Ms Pnoopie Pnats Usnet Legend http://mspoopiepants.blogspot.com/ ———————————————————————— —————- ———————————————————————— —————
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"Hardpan" <hard…@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:10pp511kuuopmr2p66ef4hfs3q42rf5hpi@4ax.com… > Feminist icon Andrea Dworkin dies
She was a scabby old bat as well. But then she was hardly going to smarten herself up in case a mere man mistook it was for *their* benefit.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Winston wrote: > steve wrote: >>Gotta a problem there hardpan, Darkfalz said that porno should be >>illegal and the truth is that I think it might be a good idea. 25 > years >>ago I would be enraged at such an idea but now after the Lord I > realize >>that nekid women with nacklices of glass beads are not wholesome. >>Outlaw it all it is not like I get the real stuff anyway. Time to > pray. > Are you serious? > The "Lord"? > I hate to break it to you, but > -invisible ghosts impregnating virgins > -people turning into salt > -talking snakes > -talking donkeys > -talking bushes > -men living inside whales > -people coming back from the dead > -people parting the sea > -people walking on water > -etc, etc, etc…… > …….are FICTION.
I keep telling my girlfriend that what comes out the end of my cock is the holy spirit; but I’ve never got her drunk enough to believe it. D.
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"Dustbin" <dustbin_addr…@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:O1S6e.37569$mV1.26068@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk… > Winston swallowed it whole then wrote… >> steve laughed and proclaimed… >>> [N]ow after the Lord I realize that nekid women >>>with nacklices of glass beads are not wholesome. >>>Outlaw it all it is not like I get the real stuff anyway. >>>Time to pray. >> Are you serious?
Naah, steve is trolling. You bit. Like the taste? :-) > I keep telling my girlfriend that what comes out the end of my cock is the > holy spirit; but I’ve never got her drunk enough to believe it.
You’ve got to get "what comes out" to manifest as a flame, Dustbin. — Feminism is but a way station on the long road from traditionalism to traditionalism.
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Troll I was gonna say you are a mean man but your title says troll, better change it snookie and we can really be outraged at your ice heart.
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peeps are real and I just got up to get some and they are gone!!! Anyway this is an easter recipe, rip open a package of peeps let them age for two weeks, wallah better than sex, ham, turkey… whatever you can think of but now I am upset my peeps are gone and I did not eat them, evil is around me, it ate my peeps.
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I am too tired to google and I have been gone awhile. Is Vic a broken glass bead ? I am curious just to lazy to google and search. If it is real bad he can be a broken glass turd if he is o.k he can be a cubic zirconium. (I think thats glass) Are you with him? pnats?
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damn it only takes the succubus/incubas only 20 minutes to show up with beads 
i included both because I can’t remember which is male or female so I included both. I could have looked it up but toooooooooo tired.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Winston wrote: > steve wrote: > > Gotta a problem there hardpan, Darkfalz said that porno should be > > illegal and the truth is that I think it might be a good idea. 25 > years > > ago I would be enraged at such an idea but now after the Lord I > realize > > that nekid women with nacklices of glass beads are not wholesome. > > Outlaw it all it is not like I get the real stuff anyway. Time to > pray. > Are you serious? > The "Lord"? > I hate to break it to you, but > -invisible ghosts impregnating virgins > -people turning into salt > -talking snakes > -talking donkeys > -talking bushes > -men living inside whales > -people coming back from the dead > -people parting the sea > -people walking on water > -etc, etc, etc…… > ……are FICTION.
oh no i’M CRUSHEDD!!!! NEXT TING YOU GONNA TELL ME TEH EASTER BUNNY ISNT REEL 
(((((((( — ———————————————————————— Ms Pnoopie Pnats Usnet Legend http://mspoopiepants.blogspot.com/ ———————————————————————— —————- ———————————————————————— —————
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Gotta a problem there hardpan, Darkfalz said that porno should be illegal and the truth is that I think it might be a good idea. 25 years ago I would be enraged at such an idea but now after the Lord I realize that nekid women with nacklices of glass beads are not wholesome. Outlaw it all it is not like I get the real stuff anyway. Time to pray.
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steve wrote: > Gotta a problem there hardpan, Darkfalz said that porno should be > illegal and the truth is that I think it might be a good idea. 25 > years ago I would be enraged at such an idea but now after the Lord I > realize that nekid women with nacklices of glass beads are not > wholesome. Outlaw it all it is not like I get the real stuff anyway. > Time to pray.
yesee evellybooty knows that glass bedds are ebil! — ———————————————————————— Ms Pnoopie Pnats Usnet Legend http://mspoopiepants.blogspot.com/ ———————————————————————— —————- ———————————————————————— —————
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Question:
Award Amount: $500 (Scholarship winner to be announced at the National Convention in Newark, New Jersey.) Description: The NAAFA Merit Scholarship Essay Contest is open to NAAFA members who are furthering their education at a community/junior college, college or university during the 2004/2005 school year. Applicants must write a 700 to 1000 word essay on one of the following topics: (1) How NAAFA has changed my life and personal education goals (2) The importance of fat acceptance in the year 2004 (3) Personal Fat Activism (4) Another fat related topic on approval Additional information: The deadline for this award is August 1, 2004. Applicable Majors: All fields of study In addition to the $500 merit scholarship awarded, the winner will also receive a free membership renewal to NAAFA for one year. Essays will be judged on relevance, creativity and clarity, as well as grammar, writing mechanics and structure.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Award Amount: $500 (Scholarship winner to be announced at the National Convention in Newark, New Jersey.)
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Award Amount: $500 Krispy Kreme Gift Card
Fixed. Venger
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Question:
Award Amount: $500 Krispy Kreme Gift Card
Fixed. Venger
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Award Amount: $500 (Scholarship winner to be announced at the National Convention in Newark, New Jersey.)
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Award Amount: $500 (Scholarship winner to be announced at the National Convention in Newark, New Jersey.) Description: The NAAFA Merit Scholarship Essay Contest is open to NAAFA members who are furthering their education at a community/junior college, college or university during the 2004/2005 school year. Applicants must write a 700 to 1000 word essay on one of the following topics: (1) How NAAFA has changed my life and personal education goals (2) The importance of fat acceptance in the year 2004 (3) Personal Fat Activism (4) Another fat related topic on approval Additional information: The deadline for this award is August 1, 2004. Applicable Majors: All fields of study In addition to the $500 merit scholarship awarded, the winner will also receive a free membership renewal to NAAFA for one year. Essays will be judged on relevance, creativity and clarity, as well as grammar, writing mechanics and structure.
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Question:
<snip El Camino Real, and More: I always thought that were the nations south of the border in better condition, we should not only augment the Pan-American highway by making it a US-style freeway all the way, but also a possibly better thing to do would be to build a fully-double-tracked (expanded where applicable) Pan-American Railroad. (Going up to Alaska would be good, too. Imagine the tourist RVs put atop special RV-service-equipped flat cars to go to Alaska and back. To Panama or beyond in winter, too!)
Some of this has been done, of course, but not so much north to south as east to west. There’s a very impressive rail line across Mexico, whose principal function is to provide the Mexican portion of a line connecting New York city with it’s nearest Pacific Coast port — Mazatlan. Mostly built under the impetus of WWII, and improved since. Note that any Pan-American route (super El Camino legacy) runs into the Darien Gap, and besides environmentalists and the whole assortment of anti-progress lefties, many governments are against breaching the gap to enable easy transit between North and South America because of diseases in one continent that easily can "imported" into the other.
I don’t know how useful such a route would be, though. Cargo moves more readily by sea, and there are not particular obstacles to sea travel between south and North. Al Moore
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Note that the remoteness of this place to Mexico ("a very long way from home") made control of it difficult. That and the lack of a maritime tradition. Imperial Spain monopolized shipping to the best of their ability, largely in order to maintain control. California was so far from their major interests that the people who settled there came to depend on the Yankee and other whalers that called on the coast for news and communications. Spain had prohibited such trade, but that was only effective in Monterey and San Diego, where they had officials and garrisons, and not very effective even there. Anywhere else, anyone at all was welcome, which is one reason why so many non Spanish speakers settled here.
Yes, I’m aware of this. (Note: I grew up in Calfornia; I have lived all over the USA outside California since then, although I revisit California from time to time.) California was remote even from Mexico. Independance in 1823, and the conversion from Republic to Empire a year or so later both came as surprise news in California. The lack of any Mexican seaborne trade or a navy made California almost as remote from the rest of Mexico as it had been from Spain. You can get an idea of what communications were like by visiting southern portions of El Camino Real, where it crosses the Baja peninsula. Much of it remains impassable to wheeled vehicles to this day.
What’s also of note is not only California, but the Pacific Northwest (which actually includes northwesternmost California by strict standards), and onward into Alaska — that part of the world had been considered remote to Europeans and even to Americans for ages. * * * El Camino Real, and More: I always thought that were the nations south of the border in better condition, we should not only augment the Pan-American highway by making it a US-style freeway all the way, but also a possibly better thing to do would be to build a fully-double-tracked (expanded where applicable) Pan-American Railroad. (Going up to Alaska would be good, too. Imagine the tourist RVs put atop special RV-service-equipped flat cars to go to Alaska and back. To Panama or beyond in winter, too!) Note that any Pan-American route (super El Camino legacy) runs into the Darien Gap, and besides environmentalists and the whole assortment of anti-progress lefties, many governments are against breaching the gap to enable easy transit between North and South America because of diseases in one continent that easily can "imported" into the other. Dave Simpson
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip Contributing further to topic drift, My recollection is that the Russians were looking for a place they could engage in agricultural production in support of their Alaskan interests. As they continued to look southward, the Spanish, concerned at possible encroachment, accelerated their settlement and development northwards. This was the attitude of the imperial governments, but the colonies were, in both cases, a very long way from home, and when the empires met, just north of San Francisco, quite friendly relationships were established between the local administrations, who had, after all, the same problems in the same place. The importance of the sea for communications and transportation dictated that neither empire looked very hard very far inland. Had the Russians got an earlier start, or the Spanish a later one, The Russians might have found what they needed, either around the San Francisco Bay or in the Salinas valley. As it was, their California settlement didn’t provide what they were looking for, and they sold it as soon as a suitable buyer appeared. Note that the remoteness of this place to Mexico ("a very long way from home") made control of it difficult.
That and the lack of a maritime tradition. Imperial Spain monopolized shipping to the best of their ability, largely in order to maintain control. California was so far from their major interests that the people who settled there came to depend on the Yankee and other whalers that called on the coast for news and communications. Spain had prohibited such trade, but that was only effective in Monterey and San Diego, where they had officials and garrisons, and not very effective even there. Anywhere else, anyone at all was welcome, which is one reason why so many non Spanish speakers settled here. California was remote even from Mexico. Independance in 1823, and the conversion from Republic to Empire a year or so later both came as surprise news in California. The lack of any Mexican seaborne trade or a navy made California almost as remote from the rest of Mexico as it had been from Spain. You can get an idea of what communications were like by visiting southern portions of El Camino Real, where it crosses the Baja peninsula. Much of it remains impassable to wheeled vehicles to this day. Al Moore
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(Note I don’t dispute your comments about Mexico and Peru, which add believeability to what you have stated.) I got it from a course in California history. I should do some research and find some citeable source, because I know this is _not_ common knowledge.
The common knowledge is about Sutter and the Forty-Niners (including those who went around the Horn and across Panama to get to California). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Contributing further to topic drift, My recollection is that the Russians were looking for a place they could engage in agricultural production in support of their Alaskan interests. As they continued to look southward, the Spanish, concerned at possible encroachment, accelerated their settlement and development northwards. This was the attitude of the imperial governments, but the colonies were, in both cases, a very long way from home, and when the empires met, just north of San Francisco, quite friendly relationships were established between the local administrations, who had, after all, the same problems in the same place. The importance of the sea for communications and transportation dictated that neither empire looked very hard very far inland. Had the Russians got an earlier start, or the Spanish a later one, The Russians might have found what they needed, either around the San Francisco Bay or in the Salinas valley. As it was, their California settlement didn’t provide what they were looking for, and they sold it as soon as a suitable buyer appeared.
Note that the remoteness of this place to Mexico ("a very long way from home") made control of it difficult. Dave Simpson
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Actually, the Spanish knew of the "mother lode" — they named it, long before 1846. It was, however, too distant to be interesting to exploit, given the much more accessable silver deposits of Mexico and Peru. That’s news to the rest of us. It wasn’t common knowledge to Americans at the time, either, and hasn’t been part of US history, even from leftist revisionists. (Note I don’t dispute your comments about Mexico and Peru, which add believeability to what you have stated.)
I got it from a course in California history. I should do some research and find some citeable source, because I know this is _not_ common knowledge. <snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [Russians] They sold their California holdings to Johann Sutter, shortly before the Mexican war, and have never advanced a claim since taking the money and running. What’s of most interest to me — and I’ll preface this by noting aloud it is not an attempt to divert attention from what you are saying; I am not disputing your statements — is that elements of the Pacific Northwest in a much weaker sense extend along the coastline south of (beyond) Cape Mendocino, and it is San Francisco Bay that forms a great natural boundary dividing Northwest and Southwest. (Redwoods are found as far south as St. Lucia on the coast, though.) It is as if the Russians continued to follow the Douglas firs, then the redwoods, south, as long as they encountered non-xerophytic coastal vegetation. (They may have been following sea lions, too.)
Contributing further to topic drift, My recollection is that the Russians were looking for a place they could engage in agricultural production in support of their Alaskan interests. As they continued to look southward, the Spanish, concerned at possible encroachment, accelerated their settlement and development northwards. This was the attitude of the imperial governments, but the colonies were, in both cases, a very long way from home, and when the empires met, just north of San Francisco, quite friendly relationships were established between the local administrations, who had, after all, the same problems in the same place. The importance of the sea for communications and transportation dictated that neither empire looked very hard very far inland. Had the Russians got an earlier start, or the Spanish a later one, The Russians might have found what they needed, either around the San Francisco Bay or in the Salinas valley. As it was, their California settlement didn’t provide what they were looking for, and they sold it as soon as a suitable buyer appeared. Al Moore
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Actually, the Spanish knew of the "mother lode" — they named it, long before 1846. It was, however, too distant to be interesting to exploit, given the much more accessable silver deposits of Mexico and Peru.
That’s news to the rest of us. It wasn’t common knowledge to Americans at the time, either, and hasn’t been part of US history, even from leftist revisionists. (Note I don’t dispute your comments about Mexico and Peru, which add believeability to what you have stated.) US aspirations to take over Spanish, subsequently Mexican, territory go a lot further back than that. See, for exmple: http://historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=165 President Polk, in launching the war with Mexico, fully intended to take, in addition to what was eventually annexed, Baja California, Chihuahua and some or all of Sonora.
No surprise there. Nor was "from the Ithmus [Panama] to the Pole!" Actually, it was the gold rush that "put San Francisco on the map."
San Francisco was used as a harbor, which was its long-desired purpose. The place had no particular importance until the hinterland of the Central and Santa Clara Valleys were developed. The Spanish had held it only to deny its use to a potential hostile power.
It certainly wasn’t developed to any great extent, though it wasn’t exactly an uninhabited wasteland, either. (Consider what already was extant around the time of our American Revolution.) Yes, and Americanos del Norte actually served both with the California Separatist movement and with the Mexican loyalists when the revolt came to actual fighting, about 300 on each side. Mexico had no chance whatever to stand up to the United States, however. Recall that Mexico had been independant for less than 25 years, that the Mexican government changed several times during course of the war, and that Mexico’s economy was completely dominated by foreign interests.
There were other inherent problems that no doubt are related to the problems of Latin America today. [Russians] They sold their California holdings to Johann Sutter, shortly before the Mexican war, and have never advanced a claim since taking the money and running.
What’s of most interest to me — and I’ll preface this by noting aloud it is not an attempt to divert attention from what you are saying; I am not disputing your statements — is that elements of the Pacific Northwest in a much weaker sense extend along the coastline south of (beyond) Cape Mendocino, and it is San Francisco Bay that forms a great natural boundary dividing Northwest and Southwest. (Redwoods are found as far south as St. Lucia on the coast, though.) It is as if the Russians continued to follow the Douglas firs, then the redwoods, south, as long as they encountered non-xerophytic coastal vegetation. (They may have been following sea lions, too.) And I’ve argued many times in alt.mexico and soc.culture.mexican that California and the Southwest would be uninhabited desert today if they had remained part of Mexico.
Note that I did not say this, but I have stated that these places would be much less developed and advanced than they are as part of the USA. Probably not. The Santa Clara and Salinas Valleys were already known to be highly fertile. The Mercury mine at New Almaden were developed during the Mexican period – this was the single highest value mine in all of California, according to a report of the State Division of Mines and Geology. There was a rapidly expanding community in the Santa Clara Valley, and expanding trade from Mexico’s Pacific Coast ports. Increasing demand for beef, and improved rail access were also driving increased settlement of Arizona, New Mexico, Sonora, Chihuahua and other relatively sparsely populated areas.
It was better-watered than the dusty South. The Santa Clara Valley remained a sea of orchard blossoms into the 1960s, and the Salinas Valley still is very agricultural. (A trip along US 101 shows this.) What is sane and relevent is that it would be much more primitive, less advanced. It would not be a left-wing, environmentalist’s paradise. (Many trees would be cut for firewood, and if anything, more native wildlife slaughtered for food and for sport.) It appears that you are unfamiliar with conditions in California, either now or in that period.
I am not unfamiliar at all. Not only do I know what California is like, but I also know what Mexico is like — I have seen it for myself. Redwood doesn’t burn worth a damn, for example,
It is used instead for structures. and the climate of the most densly populated portions of the state is warm enough to make cooking out of doors attractive, most of the year. Even into the 1920s, most domestic water heating in California was solar. It might be worth pointing out that most of California’s money is derived from industries established during the Spanish and Mexican periods: Mining and Agriculture. The latter still appears to depend heavily on imported Mexican labor.
Agriculture still does, yes. Major industry did not arise from the earlier period. It would be like you can see for yourself by going into Mexico now. Away from the borders it might be less crowded (but still primitive); at the (alternative) US border it would be as Tijuana or Ciudad Juarez are now. Not necessarily. Remember by what fraction Mexico was reduced by the war, and what natural resources were lost. When, in 1912 we discovered that we had accidently left them some copper in the 1848 treaty, we hastily cobbled together the Gadsden purchase to be sure to grab that.
South of the Gila… In th 1970s, more was discovered, south of the new border, and old-timers in Arizona wondered whether we’d seek a further adjustment to the border. By then, however, it was more profitable for American firms to mine copper in Mexico than in the US, all else being equal.
By the 1970s it was too, too late! I have encountered something interesting, though, later: During the Mexican financial crisis and subsequent bailout, one writer I read stated we should bail out Mexico — in exchange for its northern tier. (That would include the prospect of liquefied natural gas terminals in California ports to serve the enviromentalist-NIMBYs north of that alternative border who needed the natural gas for cleaner-burning energy, just as is the real case with Mexico and California now.)
No comment or attempted rebuttal here — it’s true; Mexican LNG plants are being set to meet California’s needs (augmenting and even substituting for what California should be building). http://www.energy.ca.gov/lng/projects.html Yes. The benign climate and relaxed attitudes of the natives make California a popular destination for migrants of all kinds. This, too, has been true since the Spanish period, or even before, however.
That’s not the issue. The issue is that such an environment exists now and that this is (as you admit) an explanation for why there are so many poor and homeless as well as people of all other kinds. California is a giant state with a giant economy, fully capable of acting as an independent nation. You are foolish to believe it would be fully developed and a paradise if it remained a part of Mexico, and also foolish to believe that any Mexico successful at retaining it would permit California to become another Texas. No, gringo; you cannot come to settle and develop California. It’s perhaps worth pointing out at this point that the California separatist movement of the Mexican period was mostly a movement of Spanish speakers. The Norteamericanos had quite mixed feelings on the subject, for various reasons. For example, some of them wanted the region to be annexed by the US. US aspirations to the area were known to all and sundry from at least 1836, when the US navy actually compelled the surrender of the capital of California (owing to the commodore not having read his orders carefully enough).
Every once in a while there is sentiment in California about secession (more than any mention of expulsion of Calfornia by the rest of the nation). Almost all of the sentiment and activism related to this concerns partition of the state as well as other north-south related concepts that aren’t restricted only to California. The most noteworthy idea is the "Cascadia" concept. A separate and independant California might not have been included in the United States following the inevitable war with Mexico.
Agreed completely. By "not another Texas" as I’ve written before, specifically I mean that Mexico would not permit without a fight a repetition of large-scale Anglo migration into Mexican California, followed by a desire for secession and obvious interest in joining the USA. Well, it would be like what Mexico would be like today if they had been able to retain any important regions of arable land and useful resources. The history of both nations would be so completely different as to make speculation useless.
Not useless at all. We’ve seen elsewhere in Latin America the phenomenon of Beggars on Golden Stools. And yes, Mexico (which has oil and gas wealth galore, don’t forget, in modern times) has demonstrated what California would very much be like. (I didn’t have to mention the Mexican Hispanic parts of LA and other metro areas, too, which is obvious. If there were enough money, the streets would be paved rather than unpaved as is true in much of Juarez, though in a Mexican California one cannot assume the same things as you see now there.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Regrettably, you miss the real issue. If you were still a part of Mexico, you, gringo, would likely not be there, and the place would not be a
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"Ayyyy!! they stole our territory, and especially the part with all the highways..carajo!!
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"Ayyyy!! they stole our territory, and especially the part with all the highways..carajo!!
Even the extremists themselves have their own fringe views: http://www.unm.edu/~ecdn/map2080ad.htm Dave Simpson
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [Distribution corrected] This was too attractive not to neglect. I like the idea of getting California and New York– specifically the Los Angeles and New York City parts– to secede from the Union. Maybe we can cede LA to Mexico, since it is full of Mexican citizens anyway. Would be fine by me if California succeeded from the union. It was stolen from Mexico and through US greed of always going after cheep labor it is nearly a Mexican state now. Whether California were to revert to Mexico or go independent, it would certainly be better off not being a part of the USA. The USA is simply to rogue like these days, starting wars all over the place, no respect for basic human rights, etc… Civilized states should reconsider if they want to be part of the union IMHO. California was not "stolen" from Mexico, that is a lie repeated over and over by radical Mexican nationals and U.S. chicano activists. I seem to recall that Generalissimo Santa Anna SIGNED a treaty ceding California and the other territory that comprises the U.S. Southwest. Yes, we did hold a gun to his head, but he still chose to be cowardly and sign away half his country’s territory to save his life rather than being a man and dying before signing something like that. Like I said, stolen. The US interest in California was its gold, sort of like the US interest in Iraq these days over its oil. Most Iraqis like most Californians will not benefit from US "interests". This is too typical a leftist statement — the truth is missing from the argument. When was the war with Mexico? (1846-48.) When was the big gold discovery? (Early 1848.) When was the Gold Rush? (1849 onward.)
Actually, the Spanish knew of the "mother lode" — they named it, long before 1846. It was, however, too distant to be interesting to exploit, given the much more accessable silver deposits of Mexico and Peru. Our American Southwest was wanted, at the same time the Northwest also was wanted, because of a desire for land and expansion to the Pacific. We chose to settle for what we negotiated for with both Mexico and Great Britain, even as many wanted us to take more land.
US aspirations to take over Spanish, subsequently Mexican, territory go a lot further back than that. See, for exmple: http://historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=165 President Polk, in launching the war with Mexico, fully intended to take, in addition to what was eventually annexed, Baja California, Chihuahua and some or all of Sonora. Specifically, what was most prized in California was San Francisco Bay and its harbor. And that was before, repeat before, any big gold discovery.
Actually, it was the gold rush that "put San Francisco on the map." The place had no particular importance until the hinterland of the Central and Santa Clara Valleys were developed. The Spanish had held it only to deny its use to a potential hostile power. Mexico never had a strong claim to, or control of, the lands in dispute. In fact, there was revolutionary activity in California in addition to the US war with Mexico (which, as no doubt you and other fact-challenged lefties fail also to know, the USA wasn’t guaranteed easily to win, or win at all.)
Yes, and Americanos del Norte actually served both with the California Separatist movement and with the Mexican loyalists when the revolt came to actual fighting, about 300 on each side. Mexico had no chance whatever to stand up to the United States, however. Recall that Mexico had been independant for less than 25 years, that the Mexican government changed several times during course of the war, and that Mexico’s economy was completely dominated by foreign interests. There is no reason to attach any silly leftist emotional support to the claims of Mexico any more than to Russia in California. (Yes, the Russians advanced beyond Alaska to the Pacific Northwest proper, and even to California.)
They sold their California holdings to Johann Sutter, shortly before the Mexican war, and have never advanced a claim since taking the money and running. http://www.parks.sonoma.net/rosshist.html Our discovery of gold in California afterward (repeat, afterward) only added insult to injury to the losing side in the Mexican War. And I’ve argued many times in alt.mexico and soc.culture.mexican that California and the Southwest would be uninhabited desert today if they had remained part of Mexico.
Probably not. The Santa Clara and Salinas Valleys were already known to be highly fertile. The Mercury mine at New Almaden were developed during the Mexican period – this was the single highest value mine in all of California, according to a report of the State Division of Mines and Geology. There was a rapidly expanding community in the Santa Clara Valley, and expanding trade from Mexico’s Pacific Coast ports. Increasing demand for beef, and improved rail access were also driving increased settlement of Arizona, New Mexico, Sonora, Chihuahua and other relatively sparsely populated areas. That would be terrific, too many people here now. Your reply is silly and irrelevent. What is sane and relevent is that it would be much more primitive, less advanced. It would not be a left-wing, environmentalist’s paradise. (Many trees would be cut for firewood, and if anything, more native wildlife slaughtered for food and for sport.)
It appears that you are unfamiliar with conditions in California, either now or in that period. Redwood doesn’t burn worth a damn, for example, and the climate of the most densly populated portions of the state is warm enough to make cooking out of doors attractive, most of the year. Even into the 1920s, most domestic water heating in California was solar. It might be worth pointing out that most of California’s money is derived from industries established during the Spanish and Mexican periods: Mining and Agriculture. The latter still appears to depend heavily on imported Mexican labor. It would be like you can see for yourself by going into Mexico now. Away from the borders it might be less crowded (but still primitive); at the (alternative) US border it would be as Tijuana or Ciudad Juarez are now.
Not necessarily. Remember by what fraction Mexico was reduced by the war, and what natural resources were lost. When, in 1912 we discovered that we had accidently left them some copper in the 1848 treaty, we hastily cobbled together the Gadsden purchase to be sure to grab that. In th 1970s, more was discovered, south of the new border, and old-timers in Arizona wondered whether we’d seek a further adjustment to the border. By then, however, it was more profitable for American firms to mine copper in Mexico than in the US, all else being equal. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(That would include the prospect of liquefied natural gas terminals in California ports to serve the enviromentalist-NIMBYs north of that alternative border who needed the natural gas for cleaner-burning energy, just as is the real case with Mexico and California now.) The region is prosperous ONLY because it is part of the USA. California is currently the ***5th*** largest economy on earth. If the California is such a large economy, why are there so many poor and homeless people here? Being a large economy is not a good thing if all the wealth is concentrated at the top. All the wealth isn’t concentrated at the top. The reason California has so many poor and homeless people has to do with absolute and relative terms. California is a gigantic state population- as well as area-wise, and it is only natural to expect its poor and homeless population would be large. It also is favored because of its benign climate and the often relatively benign attitude toward the poor and homeless and US-liberal welfare-state politics and policies.
Yes. The benign climate and relaxed attitudes of the natives make California a popular destination for migrants of all kinds. This, too, has been true since the Spanish period, or even before, however. California is a giant state with a giant economy, fully capable of acting as an independent nation. You are foolish to believe it would be fully developed and a paradise if it remained a part of Mexico, and also foolish to believe that any Mexico successful at retaining it would permit California to become another Texas. No, gringo; you cannot come to settle and develop California.
It’s perhaps worth pointing out at this point that the California separatist movement of the Mexican period was mostly a movement of Spanish speakers. The Norteamericanos had quite mixed feelings on the subject, for various reasons. For example, some of them wanted the region to be annexed by the US. US aspirations to the area were known to all and sundry from at least 1836, when the US navy actually compelled the surrender of the capital of California (owing to the commodore not having read his orders carefully enough). A separate and independant California might not have been included in the United States following the inevitable war with Mexico. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mexico would have driven it into the ground, making it poorer than Rwanda today. I doubt that, probably California would have been an independent country had it not been for the gold. Not at all. Manifest Destiny in fact was limited in what was sought and taken by and into the USA, as opposed to what some wanted (such as all of North America, all the way to Panama at the most extreme, as well as the less extreme demands for Baja California and all of what now is northern Mexico, if not all of Mexico — there also were moves toward the
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[Distribution corrected] This was too attractive not to neglect. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I like the idea of getting California and New York– specifically the Los Angeles and New York City parts– to secede from the Union. Maybe we can cede LA to Mexico, since it is full of Mexican citizens anyway. Would be fine by me if California succeeded from the union. It was stolen from Mexico and through US greed of always going after cheep labor it is nearly a Mexican state now. Whether California were to revert to Mexico or go independent, it would certainly be better off not being a part of the USA. The USA is simply to rogue like these days, starting wars all over the place, no respect for basic human rights, etc… Civilized states should reconsider if they want to be part of the union IMHO. California was not "stolen" from Mexico, that is a lie repeated over and over by radical Mexican nationals and U.S. chicano activists. I seem to recall that Generalissimo Santa Anna SIGNED a treaty ceding California and the other territory that comprises the U.S. Southwest. Yes, we did hold a gun to his head, but he still chose to be cowardly and sign away half his country’s territory to save his life rather than being a man and dying before signing something like that. Like I said, stolen. The US interest in California was its gold, sort of like the US interest in Iraq these days over its oil. Most Iraqis like most Californians will not benefit from US "interests".
This is too typical a leftist statement — the truth is missing from the argument. When was the war with Mexico? (1846-48.) When was the big gold discovery? (Early 1848.) When was the Gold Rush? (1849 onward.) Our American Southwest was wanted, at the same time the Northwest also was wanted, because of a desire for land and expansion to the Pacific. We chose to settle for what we negotiated for with both Mexico and Great Britain, even as many wanted us to take more land. Specifically, what was most prized in California was San Francisco Bay and its harbor. And that was before, repeat before, any big gold discovery. Mexico never had a strong claim to, or control of, the lands in dispute. In fact, there was revolutionary activity in California in addition to the US war with Mexico (which, as no doubt you and other fact-challenged lefties fail also to know, the USA wasn’t guaranteed easily to win, or win at all.) There is no reason to attach any silly leftist emotional support to the claims of Mexico any more than to Russia in California. (Yes, the Russians advanced beyond Alaska to the Pacific Northwest proper, and even to California.) http://www.parks.sonoma.net/rosshist.html Our discovery of gold in California afterward (repeat, afterward) only added insult to injury to the losing side in the Mexican War. And I’ve argued many times in alt.mexico and soc.culture.mexican that California and the Southwest would be uninhabited desert today if they had remained part of Mexico. That would be terrific, too many people here now.
Your reply is silly and irrelevent. What is sane and relevent is that it would be much more primitive, less advanced. It would not be a left-wing, environmentalist’s paradise. (Many trees would be cut for firewood, and if anything, more native wildlife slaughtered for food and for sport.) It would be like you can see for yourself by going into Mexico now. Away from the borders it might be less crowded (but still primitive); at the (alternative) US border it would be as Tijuana or Ciudad Juarez are now. (That would include the prospect of liquefied natural gas terminals in California ports to serve the enviromentalist-NIMBYs north of that alternative border who needed the natural gas for cleaner-burning energy, just as is the real case with Mexico and California now.) The region is prosperous ONLY because it is part of the USA. California is currently the ***5th*** largest economy on earth. If the California is such a large economy, why are there so many poor and homeless people here? Being a large economy is not a good thing if all the wealth is concentrated at the top.
All the wealth isn’t concentrated at the top. The reason California has so many poor and homeless people has to do with absolute and relative terms. California is a gigantic state population- as well as area-wise, and it is only natural to expect its poor and homeless population would be large. It also is favored because of its benign climate and the often relatively benign attitude toward the poor and homeless and US-liberal welfare-state politics and policies. California is a giant state with a giant economy, fully capable of acting as an independent nation. You are foolish to believe it would be fully developed and a paradise if it remained a part of Mexico, and also foolish to believe that any Mexico successful at retaining it would permit California to become another Texas. No, gringo; you cannot come to settle and develop California. Mexico would have driven it into the ground, making it poorer than Rwanda today. I doubt that, probably California would have been an independent country had it not been for the gold.
Not at all. Manifest Destiny in fact was limited in what was sought and taken by and into the USA, as opposed to what some wanted (such as all of North America, all the way to Panama at the most extreme, as well as the less extreme demands for Baja California and all of what now is northern Mexico, if not all of Mexico — there also were moves toward the Caribbean and what commonly is known as Central America). The USA did not take more of Mexico, though it did re-take its Southeast following an attempt at secession. That high-growth period in US history is very much behind the decision north of us for Confederation. http://collection.nlc-bnc.ca/100/200/301/nlc-bnc/cdn_confederation-ef… There was no question for the desire of the US for California and its port with Pacific access. (Southern Calfornia was backward and dusty for ages, even after US acquisition. The USA wanted San Francisco.) There was bound to be conflict, especially as Mexico’s claim was weak at the same time the US’s desire was strong. (The USA aded some insult to injury at Canada, insofar as the United Kingdom and Canadians might be concerned, because where was the Alaska boundary eventually placed? What latitude? 54-40.) What may be of interest to you and everyone else regarding What Might Have Been concern the negotiations for establishing the boundary or boundaries with Mexico. If I recall, we (the USA) initially asked for all Alta and Baja California, while the Mexicans initially asked for everything south of the vicinity of Monterey. (Envision the border along the southern part of the Santa Cruz Mountains.) In a later stage Mexico tried to retain all of what most consider to be Southern California (south of the Transverse Ranges). South of any boundary it would be now what Mexico is like today, including what Mexico is like at Tijuana or Ciudad Juarez where there is much close to the international boundary. (It includes dirt roads in the streets of Juarez, plainly viewable from I-10 as one approaches El Paso from Las Cruces.) If California were part of Mexico right now, it would probably have less than a million residents, 950,000 all living on the CA-MX/OR-US border awaiting their chance to escape across that border into the U.S. L.A., S.F., Sacramento, etc. would all be tiny peasant villages if they existed at all, and there might be a dozen or two fields of beans and goat farms in the entire state. That would be so nice! No pollution, all that wonderful farmland in the central valley to ourselves while the US starved. Our mountains and forests would still be full of wildlife and would still contain the original old growth trees. Instead the US has pretty much raped California of its oil, gold, old growth trees, etc. Whats left now is a population who in significant numbers is either imprisoned, homeless, poor, and our natural resources mostly gone.
Regrettably, you miss the real issue. If you were still a part of Mexico, you, gringo, would likely not be there, and the place would not be a paradise; nor would you gringos be permitted to turn California into anything resembling what it was in the 1880s to 1960s. If you were an independent country, enough people in Mexico in favor of "la Reconquista" would love to see it happen; you would need us to defend you (especially if your leftism dominated Californian foreign and military policy). If you had been still part of Mexico, which is the real alternative to what has happened, you largely would have been devoid of development; you would have been similar to what you see on the other side of the existing international border between the US and Mexico, with you and your kids likely to die of death as infants from diarrhea or in your childhood from a large number of diseases almost unknown or truly unknown in this country. And you’d be looking largely to go north to find a much better economic life. Dave Simpson
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<snip
Short version… Brunch…Lunch…Dinner…Desert…Meals…Snacks….Buffets The "Non-Meal Package" was a just a joke. HTH S*nort
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—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 <snip Short version… Brunch…Lunch…Dinner…Desert…Meals…Snacks….Buffets The "Non-Meal Package" was a just a joke. HTH S*nort
I hear they have you on the munu-shitferbrains. Could you send this to any more groups??? LV Lady Veteran "I rode a tank and held a general’s rank when the blitzkrieg raged and the bodies stank…" – -Rolling Stones, Sympathy for the Devil People who hide behind anonymous remailers and ridicule fat people are cowardly idiots with no motive but malice. "To Do Is To Be" Socrates "To Be Is To Do" Plato "Do Be Do Be Do" Sinatra —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: PGP 8.0 – not licensed for commercial use: www.pgp.com iQA/AwUBQKAPfOkoPZAZfLgsEQJ+lQCg50/dYwYrQHvNjnPlmM/potyv2loAoPph CvYCAEE8oZ+vcdByXvQ9J5rZ =zjMH —–END PGP SIGNATURE—–
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Hey everyone, the supersaver pkg that was to end on May 15th has been extended to the end of May. You can still get in at the very low price of $225/245! What a bargin! See you at convnetion!!!! "DREAM BIG" Join us for NAAFA’s 2004 East Coast Convention August 4
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Hey everyone, the supersaver pkg that was to end on May 15th has been extended to the end of May. You can still get in at the very low price of $225/245! What a bargin! See you at convnetion!!!! "DREAM BIG" Join us for NAAFA’s 2004 East Coast Convention August 4
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More than anything else, such crass attacks glaringly illustrate the racist, privileged mindset that plagues the gay community.
Racist? Dave was white. Crass attacks? You can dish it out but you can’t take it can you, Swindel?
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Just who is Baby Peanut anyway? A drag name for Martin Delaney? I thought frod was the only one with "Marty is Everywhere" syndrome.
But Marty–er oh dear–oops! — I mean…Todd IS frod!
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Just who is Baby Peanut anyway? A drag name for Martin Delaney? I thought frod was the only one with "Marty is Everywhere" syndrome. But Marty–er oh dear–oops! — I mean…Todd IS frod!
The more things change…
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There have been many hate filled attacks regarding David Pasquarelli over the last several weeks.
David Pasquarelli has fairly earned the hate directed at him. — David Canzi She couldn’t get over the skimpiness of his worldly goods. "Maybe you ought to rethink crime as a career path," she said. "I do, all the time," he said, "but nothing else gives me the same job satisfaction." — Donald E. Westlake, Put A Lid On It
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Just who is Baby Peanut anyway? A drag name for Martin Delaney?
I thought frod was the only one with "Marty is Everywhere" syndrome.
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By the way, all it takes to keep a controversy going is one chronically wrong idiot who won’t shut up. So a continuing controversy is not evidence that there are actually two sides that deserve to be heard. — David Canzi She couldn’t get over the skimpiness of his worldly goods. "Maybe you ought to rethink crime as a career path," she said. "I do, all the time," he said, "but nothing else gives me the same job satisfaction." — Donald E. Westlake, Put A Lid On It
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If David and Ronnie made a mistake it was they cared too much,
Actually, it was they couldn’t see the trees for the forest. Principles "for the people" (though arguably misguided) do not override how one treats individual persons. If David and Ronnie’s health decline is attributed to stress, they certainly caused the decline in health of many others. What a legacy. B/
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Todd you fail to address a single point in the letter you purport to be responding to. Simply typing platitude after platitude doesn’t cut it in the real world and sadly that inability to recognize reality is what David and Ronnie suffered from, obviously you have the same problem. Gary Stein
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There have been many hate filled attacks regarding David Pasquarelli over the last several weeks. Many claim to be experts regarding David’s health history when all than can purport is ignorance. Still others have posed cogent questions to obtain a better understanding. Beware of postings that allege detailed knowledge of David’s life when they come from anonymous sources. Just who is Baby Peanut anyway? A drag name for Martin Delaney? I am posting a recent letter to the Bay Area Reporter regarding David’s obituary follwed by my response. I speak as a long time member of ACTUP San Francisco and a close friend of David Pasquarelli for the last ten years. Todd Swindell ACTUP San Francisco Activist damaged activism We are writing because we feel that last week’s B.A.R. coverage of the death of David Pasquarelli failed to provide needed analysis of his very public activism as a AIDS denialist ["AIDS activist David Pasquarelli dies at 36," March 18]. Commitment to ideals must be tempered with rationality and compassion for individuals you claim to be assisting. David failed terribly by these criteria, and this should be remembered in any reflection on David’s legacy. David’s activism was informed by an unsupported, irrational, yet unshakeable conviction that HIV is harmless and that anti-HIV drugs invariably do more harm than good. His promotion of this idea almost certainly contributed to early deaths of thousands of HIV-positive people in this country and possibly tens of thousands in the less developed world. South African President Thabo Mbeki embraced ACT UP/SF’s denialist rhetoric to justify years of delay in providing needed AIDS treatment and prevention. David’s brand of threatening, abusive, and often violent "activism" was frequently personally directed at AIDS activists, AIDS doctors and researchers, and people with AIDS. He seriously damaged unpaid AIDS activism in San Francisco. His repeated disruptions of meetings and discussions regarding HIV science and policy substantially poisoned the environment for including people with HIV in these forums. David’s style of "activism" reminded us of no one so much as notorious homophobe Fred Phelps, also an idealistic and committed "activist." As gay men with HIV, we will not feel it necessary to pay tribute at Phelps’s passing. We similarly feel no such need at David’s. But it is necessary to publicly critique and criticize David’s legacy, even at this sad time for those close to David. Young activists are strongly influenced by community admiration and approval. It would be a tragedy if the tributes paid to David at his death encouraged others to imitate the worst mistakes of his life. Furthermore, even at David’s death, the denialist cant continues. David’s associates have attributed his death to stress caused by some two months spent in jail, anemia, PCP, meningitis, CMV, etc. In other words, anything but untreated HIV infection and AIDS. The death of fellow HIV-positive AIDS denialist Ronnie Burk one year ago was likewise attributed to anything but untreated HIV infection. With two of San Francisco’s four most outspoken HIV-positive AIDS denialists dead from AIDS within a year, we hope that fewer will embrace the denialists’ deadly dogma. We know from our experiences and those of hundreds of friends and loved ones that informed use of anti-HIV drugs improves health and saves lives and that HIV transmission prevention remains critical to slow this epidemic. It is sad that neither David nor Ronnie allowed this reality to enter their world-view before it was too late. Stephen LeBlanc Michael Lauro San Francisco Stephen LeBlanc and Michael Lauro’s letter [Activist damaged activism B.A.R. March 25] is a sickening example of the worthlessness of self-appointed AIDS activist torch bearers. As an ACTUP San Francisco member for over ten years and close friends with both David Pasquarelli and Ronnie Burk, I feel the need to address a couple issues. If David and Ronnie made a mistake it was they cared too much, their passion for social justice overrode a focus on their own self-care. The authors so-called critique is nothing more than callous revisionism. An HIV diagnosis may define their contemporary identity but it’s up to future generations how AIDS will be remembered. The young queer activists who will fully grasp and appreciate Ronnie and Dave’s legacy have yet to be born. More than anything else, such crass attacks glaringly illustrate the racist, privileged mindset that plagues the gay community. The basic needs of people everywhere, housing, food and universal health care, remain unaddressed by activists such as LeBlanc and Lauro who are more concerned with Palm Springs honeymoons and the latest queer cable TV show. Ronnie was one of the most brilliant artists the gay community has seen. A victim of the Ellis Act, Ronnie’s eviction sent him back to Brooklyn to focus on his visionary poetry. Our society isn’t hospitable to artists, much less a skinny Mexican with a big mouth. His lack of roots in such an uncompassionate world left him vulnerable. Ronnie Burk did more for world culture than LeBlanc and Lauro could ever dream of. Ronnie’s stroke was a devastating result of the stress following the brutal murder of his 15-year-old African-American nephew by racist Texas police. Ronnie spent his life battling racism, more often within the gay community and AIDS service organizations. Dealing with racism everyday takes it toll. A stroke can make one not want to fight anymore when that’s all they’ve been doing all their life. Dave’s health decline was certainly a result of the three months he was incarcerated in San Francisco County Jail. The tragic reality is that the prison system exists as modern day concentration camps designed to exterminate this nation’s Black, Latino, Asian and poor White youths. Even in oh-so liberal San Francisco, County Jail is no walk in the park. Dave undoubtedly contracted meningitis in the Jail’s shower room. It was his first battle with the illness that left his immune system weakened and unable to rebound. The inability to acknowledge both these incidents only further attests to the racist elitism of LeBlanc and Lauro. Rather than address these issues, they just blame HIV. It the same old tune that the AIDS establishment has been singing for over 20 years. Enough is enough. Reject HIV hysteria and toxic AIDS drugs. In memory of Ronnie and Dave, Let Love Rule! Todd Swindell ACTUP San Francisco
Response:
There have been many hate filled attacks regarding David Pasquarelli over the last several weeks. Many claim to be experts regarding David’s health history when all than can purport is ignorance. Still others have posed cogent questions to obtain a better understanding. Beware of postings that allege detailed knowledge of David’s life when they come from anonymous sources. Just who is Baby Peanut anyway? A drag name for Martin Delaney? I am posting a recent letter to the Bay Area Reporter regarding David’s obituary follwed by my response. I speak as a long time member of ACTUP San Francisco and a close friend of David Pasquarelli for the last ten years. Todd Swindell ACTUP San Francisco Activist damaged activism We are writing because we feel that last week’s B.A.R. coverage of the death of David Pasquarelli failed to provide needed analysis of his very public activism as a AIDS denialist ["AIDS activist David Pasquarelli dies at 36," March 18]. Commitment to ideals must be tempered with rationality and compassion for individuals you claim to be assisting. David failed terribly by these criteria, and this should be remembered in any reflection on David’s legacy. David’s activism was informed by an unsupported, irrational, yet unshakeable conviction that HIV is harmless and that anti-HIV drugs invariably do more harm than good. His promotion of this idea almost certainly contributed to early deaths of thousands of HIV-positive people in this country and possibly tens of thousands in the less developed world. South African President Thabo Mbeki embraced ACT UP/SF’s denialist rhetoric to justify years of delay in providing needed AIDS treatment and prevention. David’s brand of threatening, abusive, and often violent "activism" was frequently personally directed at AIDS activists, AIDS doctors and researchers, and people with AIDS. He seriously damaged unpaid AIDS activism in San Francisco. His repeated disruptions of meetings and discussions regarding HIV science and policy substantially poisoned the environment for including people with HIV in these forums. David’s style of "activism" reminded us of no one so much as notorious homophobe Fred Phelps, also an idealistic and committed "activist." As gay men with HIV, we will not feel it necessary to pay tribute at Phelps’s passing. We similarly feel no such need at David’s. But it is necessary to publicly critique and criticize David’s legacy, even at this sad time for those close to David. Young activists are strongly influenced by community admiration and approval. It would be a tragedy if the tributes paid to David at his death encouraged others to imitate the worst mistakes of his life. Furthermore, even at David’s death, the denialist cant continues. David’s associates have attributed his death to stress caused by some two months spent in jail, anemia, PCP, meningitis, CMV, etc. In other words, anything but untreated HIV infection and AIDS. The death of fellow HIV-positive AIDS denialist Ronnie Burk one year ago was likewise attributed to anything but untreated HIV infection. With two of San Francisco’s four most outspoken HIV-positive AIDS denialists dead from AIDS within a year, we hope that fewer will embrace the denialists’ deadly dogma. We know from our experiences and those of hundreds of friends and loved ones that informed use of anti-HIV drugs improves health and saves lives and that HIV transmission prevention remains critical to slow this epidemic. It is sad that neither David nor Ronnie allowed this reality to enter their world-view before it was too late. Stephen LeBlanc Michael Lauro San Francisco Stephen LeBlanc and Michael Lauro’s letter [Activist damaged activism B.A.R. March 25] is a sickening example of the worthlessness of self-appointed AIDS activist torch bearers. As an ACTUP San Francisco member for over ten years and close friends with both David Pasquarelli and Ronnie Burk, I feel the need to address a couple issues. If David and Ronnie made a mistake it was they cared too much, their passion for social justice overrode a focus on their own self-care. The authors so-called critique is nothing more than callous revisionism. An HIV diagnosis may define their contemporary identity but it’s up to future generations how AIDS will be remembered. The young queer activists who will fully grasp and appreciate Ronnie and Dave’s legacy have yet to be born. More than anything else, such crass attacks glaringly illustrate the racist, privileged mindset that plagues the gay community. The basic needs of people everywhere, housing, food and universal health care, remain unaddressed by activists such as LeBlanc and Lauro who are more concerned with Palm Springs honeymoons and the latest queer cable TV show. Ronnie was one of the most brilliant artists the gay community has seen. A victim of the Ellis Act, Ronnie’s eviction sent him back to Brooklyn to focus on his visionary poetry. Our society isn’t hospitable to artists, much less a skinny Mexican with a big mouth. His lack of roots in such an uncompassionate world left him vulnerable. Ronnie Burk did more for world culture than LeBlanc and Lauro could ever dream of. Ronnie’s stroke was a devastating result of the stress following the brutal murder of his 15-year-old African-American nephew by racist Texas police. Ronnie spent his life battling racism, more often within the gay community and AIDS service organizations. Dealing with racism everyday takes it toll. A stroke can make one not want to fight anymore when that’s all they’ve been doing all their life. Dave’s health decline was certainly a result of the three months he was incarcerated in San Francisco County Jail. The tragic reality is that the prison system exists as modern day concentration camps designed to exterminate this nation’s Black, Latino, Asian and poor White youths. Even in oh-so liberal San Francisco, County Jail is no walk in the park. Dave undoubtedly contracted meningitis in the Jail’s shower room. It was his first battle with the illness that left his immune system weakened and unable to rebound. The inability to acknowledge both these incidents only further attests to the racist elitism of LeBlanc and Lauro. Rather than address these issues, they just blame HIV. It the same old tune that the AIDS establishment has been singing for over 20 years. Enough is enough. Reject HIV hysteria and toxic AIDS drugs. In memory of Ronnie and Dave, Let Love Rule! Todd Swindell ACTUP San Francisco
Response:
Question:
pants said >ok Ilya, will you quit flaunting your extraverted experiences in ass and >disclose tips for becoming a extravert like you?
That didn’t seem too extroverted, he(?) mostly seemed to listen. — Hana no Kaitou http://animeg.blogspot.com/ <–yet another shitty blog. http://members.fortunecity.com/animeg3282/ <—Fancy Lala Club! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fancy_lala <mailing list for Lala fans
Response:
"William P" <will(dot)p…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns93B08B40B2701willdotpatsympaticod@207.35.177.134… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Thoughtcube" <thoughtc…@yahoo.com> wrote in news:be9kft$41t$1 > @news.iucc.ac.il: > >> Oh come on, step back from your computer and realize that every post you > >> make is complaining about how hard it is to meet women. Then you go to > > one > >> singles thing, get a success and go back to saying how hard it is. > > Doesn’t that describe EVERY guy here, except that the rest don’t > > even go to the speed dating stuff?! > > (except for Davide and maybe one or two others?) > Now you’re starting to understand why this place is so attractive to trolls > like me: It’s a bunch of really smart guys who have fallen into a > destructive pattern of spoon feeding themselves a line of seductive > bullshit. That seems to be practically equivalent with male shyness.
Nah, that’s not it. Seeing as you are on your way out, ‘Bye now’.
Response:
William P <will(dot)p…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message <news:Xns93B06A1212E16willdotpatsympaticod@207.35.177.134>… > matthewfr…@hotmail.com (matthew) wrote in > news:fecb07f6.0307060259.1ed82af0@posting.google.com: > >> Yeah you sound so sure of yourself here I’d be shocked if giving > >> insecure vibes in real life were a factor. > > Leave trance alone parker. He has a much better mate value than you. > > So the guy’s problem with women really is shyness.Not your case.So > > what? > My point is the same as yours.
Wha..?Oh no,not at all: Your point: you were complaining about Trance being too vocal for your ego’s taste about his ability to attract female attention. My point: Don’t be so jealous of Trance’s desirability.His mate value is higher than yours. Unlike you, he has real shyness problems, so his situation is presently not much better than yours. When this shyness problem of his is under control, he will be able to get serious with females, the likes of which ye can never have. Arr… > Here’s a guy who does fine every time he actually talks to a girl. He > takes this, and makes the conclusion that dating is impossible in Miami and > that things would be so much different in Utah and that there are all these > barriers with his personality that make meeting a woman impossible and > isn’t his life just so hard?
Well, maybe Miami really is not such a great place (if your shy) to meet women. Mathieu
Response:
>Oh come on, step back from your computer and realize that every post you >make is complaining about how hard it is to meet women. Then you go to one >singles thing, get a success and go back to saying how hard it is.
Not true. In the past weeks, I’ve also posted complaining about the price of cereal, and extolling the virtues of coffee. Neither had anything at all to do with women.
Response:
trance…@aol.com (Trance909) wrote in news:20030706122520.17964.00000217@mb-m03.aol.com: >>Oh come on, step back from your computer and realize that every post >>you make is complaining about how hard it is to meet women. Then you >>go to one singles thing, get a success and go back to saying how hard >>it is. > Not true. In the past weeks, I’ve also posted complaining about the > price of cereal, and extolling the virtues of coffee. Neither had > anything at all to do with women.
Well okay, in your last four posts here, only two of them are complaining about the unfairness of gender issues… But then you called Virgo out on boasting without being willing to put up any evidence, so that definitely makes up for it. — will.p(at)sympatico.ca My introvert forum: http://introversion.hopto.org/forum/index.php
Response:
"William P" <will(dot)p…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns93B0799F9B342willdotpatsympaticod@206.172.150.14… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> trance…@aol.com (Trance909) wrote in > news:20030706115042.17964.00000210@mb-m03.aol.com: > >>takes this, and makes the conclusion that dating is impossible in > >>Miami and that things would be so much different in Utah and that > >>there are all these barriers with his personality that make meeting a > >>woman impossible and isn’t his life just so hard? > > I never said my life was harder than anyone else’s. I don’t even see > > your point! hehe as for dating being impossible here, I wouldn’t say > > it’s impossible, but it does seem to require a fair bit of luck. I > > think my luck in that area is consistently crappy. Plus, it’s > > difficult – sure, I do fine when I talk to women, but it’s still very > > difficult. > Oh come on, step back from your computer and realize that every post you > make is complaining about how hard it is to meet women. Then you go to one > singles thing, get a success and go back to saying how hard it is.
Doesn’t that describe EVERY guy here, except that the rest don’t even go to the speed dating stuff?! (except for Davide and maybe one or two others?)
Response:
"Thoughtcube" <thoughtc…@yahoo.com> wrote in news:be9kft$41t$1 @news.iucc.ac.il: >> Oh come on, step back from your computer and realize that every post you >> make is complaining about how hard it is to meet women. Then you go to > one >> singles thing, get a success and go back to saying how hard it is. > Doesn’t that describe EVERY guy here, except that the rest don’t > even go to the speed dating stuff?! > (except for Davide and maybe one or two others?)
Now you’re starting to understand why this place is so attractive to trolls like me: It’s a bunch of really smart guys who have fallen into a destructive pattern of spoon feeding themselves a line of seductive bullshit. That seems to be practically equivalent with male shyness. — will.p(at)sympatico.ca My introvert forum: http://introversion.hopto.org/forum/index.php
Response:
>Often the introverts – people like you – have the most >>depth and as such have the most to offer in an art or poetry setting. >>There are several introverts at the poetry reading. They have the >>hardest time getting to speak, they are full of self-doubt, but when >>they do speak they are the ones that have the most to say.
I am not too sure about this. Nor am I positive that all you need to do is give me a dose of "confidence" and I’ll then be leaving a trail of conversational brilliance all through the room. I don’t agree that lack of confidence is what causes the words to not make their way into my head, and to my mouth.
Response:
trance…@aol.com (Trance909) wrote in news:20030705200014.24499.00000203@mb-m22.aol.com: >>Often the introverts – people like you – have the most >>>depth and as such have the most to offer in an art or poetry setting. >>>There are several introverts at the poetry reading. They have the >>>hardest time getting to speak, they are full of self-doubt, but when >>>they do speak they are the ones that have the most to say. > I am not too sure about this. Nor am I positive that all you need to > do is give me a dose of "confidence" and I’ll then be leaving a trail > of conversational brilliance all through the room. I don’t agree that > lack of confidence is what causes the words to not make their way into > my head, and to my mouth.
Yeah you sound so sure of yourself here I’d be shocked if giving insecure vibes in real life were a factor. — will.p(at)sympatico.ca My introvert forum: http://introversion.hopto.org/forum/index.php
Response:
>Leave trance alone parker. He has a much better mate value than you. >So the guy’s problem with women really is shyness.Not your case.So what?
Better mate value? Thanks for the vote of confidence. hehe but yes, it really is my biggest problem with women. That is my major point of insecurity, the idea that I just can’t talk enough, or be "entertaining" enough.
Response:
trance…@aol.com (Trance909) wrote in news:20030706115042.17964.00000210@mb-m03.aol.com: >>takes this, and makes the conclusion that dating is impossible in >>Miami and that things would be so much different in Utah and that >>there are all these barriers with his personality that make meeting a >>woman impossible and isn’t his life just so hard? > I never said my life was harder than anyone else’s. I don’t even see > your point! hehe as for dating being impossible here, I wouldn’t say > it’s impossible, but it does seem to require a fair bit of luck. I > think my luck in that area is consistently crappy. Plus, it’s > difficult – sure, I do fine when I talk to women, but it’s still very > difficult.
Oh come on, step back from your computer and realize that every post you make is complaining about how hard it is to meet women. Then you go to one singles thing, get a success and go back to saying how hard it is. — will.p(at)sympatico.ca My introvert forum: http://introversion.hopto.org/forum/index.php
Response:
trance…@aol.com (Trance909) wrote in news:20030706115504.17964.00000212@mb-m03.aol.com: >>Leave trance alone parker. He has a much better mate value than you. >>So the guy’s problem with women really is shyness.Not your case.So >>what? > Better mate value? Thanks for the vote of confidence. hehe but yes, it > really is my biggest problem with women. That is my major point of > insecurity, the idea that I just can’t talk enough, or be > "entertaining" enough.
The major problem seems to me to be that these fantasies of being inherenty inferior are way too appealing for you to easily let go of. You seem to have some kind of need to proclaim your imagined weaknesses to the world over and over a again. — will.p(at)sympatico.ca My introvert forum: http://introversion.hopto.org/forum/index.php
Response:
>takes this, and makes the conclusion that dating is impossible in Miami and >that things would be so much different in Utah and that there are all these >barriers with his personality that make meeting a woman impossible and >isn’t his life just so hard?
I never said my life was harder than anyone else’s. I don’t even see your point! hehe as for dating being impossible here, I wouldn’t say it’s impossible, but it does seem to require a fair bit of luck. I think my luck in that area is consistently crappy. Plus, it’s difficult – sure, I do fine when I talk to women, but it’s still very difficult.
Response:
matthewfr…@hotmail.com (matthew) wrote in news:fecb07f6.0307060259.1ed82af0@posting.google.com: >> Yeah you sound so sure of yourself here I’d be shocked if giving >> insecure vibes in real life were a factor. > Leave trance alone parker. He has a much better mate value than you. > So the guy’s problem with women really is shyness.Not your case.So > what?
My point is the same as yours. Here’s a guy who does fine every time he actually talks to a girl. He takes this, and makes the conclusion that dating is impossible in Miami and that things would be so much different in Utah and that there are all these barriers with his personality that make meeting a woman impossible and isn’t his life just so hard? — will.p(at)sympatico.ca My introvert forum: http://introversion.hopto.org/forum/index.php
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -William P <will(dot)p…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message <news:Xns93AFCC921F1BFwilldotpatsympaticod@206.172.150.14>… > trance…@aol.com (Trance909) wrote in > news:20030705200014.24499.00000203@mb-m22.aol.com: > >>Often the introverts – people like you – have the most > >>>depth and as such have the most to offer in an art or poetry setting. > >>>There are several introverts at the poetry reading. They have the > >>>hardest time getting to speak, they are full of self-doubt, but when > >>>they do speak they are the ones that have the most to say. > > I am not too sure about this. Nor am I positive that all you need to > > do is give me a dose of "confidence" and I’ll then be leaving a trail > > of conversational brilliance all through the room. I don’t agree that > > lack of confidence is what causes the words to not make their way into > > my head, and to my mouth. > Yeah you sound so sure of yourself here I’d be shocked if giving insecure > vibes in real life were a factor.
Leave trance alone parker. He has a much better mate value than you. So the guy’s problem with women really is shyness.Not your case.So what?
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Sacred Pnats <bowotro…@ohtrolleoh.com> wrote in message <news:lheegv4bdb58c474hb33cb7dht3f53r2mf@4ax.com>… > Didn’t know you had lost your job. =( Sorry to hear that. I wish I had parents > to go live with. I think I would go home to a nice quiet room and cry for 3 > weeks. > That is very brave just going to town and reciting poetry like that. > I wish I could just cut loose with my art and just let it rip. Occasionally it > happens but then crap from other people happens. The old how are you supposed to > support yourself doing that speil. =( Pressure to conform to societal > expectations. > so then I scury around find a "regular day job" that is socially acceptable. so > now I am doing what is expected of me. > sigh… > I even asked an ast rologer for help and they poo pooed me with the how am I > going to support myself with art. =( > sigh… sigh…
You can get art shows on weekends at galleries. Or simply go to art stores and show them your art. You don’t have to be doing it for income, you can do it on weekends and evenings and get your work sold. Then gradually move over to it if it works out well enough that you can support yourself with it.
Response:
On Sat, 5 Jul 2003, Ilya Shambat gushed unblushingly: [...] > I am now a part of two poetry circles.
I.e. cliques of regulars who assemble in public places at posted times. To be charged for refreshments, which is the businesses’ raison d’etre. Those ain’t exactly Madame duFarce’s private literary salons, you ass; it’s Poetry Nite at the Dipstick Saloon. They can only gain in stature and exclusivity by barring you. If you wait at the same bus stop every day at the same time and find a small clutch of other people who are always there, does that make you feel part of an elite group too? Wait, hey: out of 6 billion people on earth, one of them might have just breathed in unison with you for two or three minutes — maybe you’re mystically connected and should hunt him/her down to share in that mutual specialness! > One is all young and black, and the other is all old and white.
Yes, you’ll find a lot of unofficial segregation in DC. Or in any old Southern slave city. Or any town of any size anywhere in the USA. So? > I refine my work with the old white people and let it rip with young > black ones. It is a matter of using the mind and the heart in a way > that makes the best of both.
No, it’s a matter of trying to accomodate your overwhelming need to be patted on your silly head to DC’s tacit strictures of ancient racism, which you’ve just shown us you gladly feed on and reinforce — *while* pretending to be against it. That you clearly do so out of a heedless and pathetic desperation only shows you’re too stupid to be evil. Congratulations, Ilya! Two Poetry Saloons have found a clown to share. (You’ll know they really wuv you when they serve you *free* Kool-aid!) BTDTingly, The <= ex-poetaster extraordinaire — "I really don’t understand the situation. But it’s no game." – Bowie (C) `TheDavid^TM’ 2003 | David, P.O. Box 21403, Louisville, KY 40221
Response:
On Sat, 5 Jul 2003, Sacred Pnats asked Ilya: [...] > will you quit flaunting your extraverted experiences in ass and > disclose tips for becoming a extravert like you?
Pounding yourself in the head with a hammer ought to work, though I think Ilya spent several years inhaling chemical warfare agents. The — "I really don’t understand the situation. But it’s no game." – Bowie (C) `TheDavid^TM’ 2003 | David, P.O. Box 21403, Louisville, KY 40221
Response:
Sacred Pnats <bowotro…@ohtrolleoh.com> wrote in message <news:orfdgvkbjj2o7t8sphpfh5p04k7qokrq2u@4ax.com>… > ok Ilya, will you quit flaunting your extraverted experiences in ass and > disclose tips for becoming a extravert like you?
Hi sweetie, I’ve had quite a few inhibitions. In fact I was paralyzed with them and frequently am still. The way I overcame them to be able to do this stuff was through combination of love, divine intervention and rage. I did magick to meet the best artist in the world. I met her. She gave me my voice. She gave inspiration for my poetry. She taught me what she knew about making it as an artist. She also gave me faith in myself. When she left for Florida, and I, having been laid off from my job and unable to find another job, went back to live with my parents, I was constantly getting their crap about how I supposedly am not socially adequate. I kept in my mind the awareness of what I knew and refused to accept the image that they were projecting upon me. One day I was pacing in the basement and fighting for words within myself. I was speaking out loud before a mirror, practicing at giving a speech. All kinds of hateful voices – not out-loud voices, but voices within the head – were shouting at me. I was getting more and more enraged. Then I said finally I have had it! I burst out of myself and said, I will go to DC right now and recite my poetry to people. And I did. I got in my car. I busted a tire on the way there and then walked 15 miles. Then I went into a restaurant. I asked the host if I could recite some poetry to his customers. He said yes. So I started coming up to couples and people who looked open and asked them, Would you like me to recite you some poetry? To those who said yes, I recited Mirage. I was radiating passion and energy. They were grateful. Someone told me that she was hyper, and me sitting next to her and talking to her relaxed her. The next time I went to DC and did this, there was an open mic reading at the Dupont Circle. So I passionately recited poem after poem, to much applause. Someone called me "the punk romantic shaman guy." A singer invited me to her performance at a coffee shop, and I recited some poetry in between her songs. And then I learned about readings at Teaism, which is where I began doing the open mic readings. This is how I got involved in the black scene. The involvement with the white scene was entirely accidental, as I stumbled upon a poetry reading at a bookstore and recited one of my Tsvetaeva translations that I had on hand. The people took interest in me, and I have been attending their meetings. I have had interesting conversations with couples about their relationships, after I read them love poetry – on subways, in restaurants. It is an excellent way to break the ice. I learn a lot about people this way and share what I know. I have seen happy couples, unhappy couples, and people who are well-intentioned but need inspiration. I have known personally and read the works by American originals. In all cases, they had to invent themselves. The solutions just sort of welled up from within, in a storm of fury. I can’t copy anyone else, I have to be entirely self-creative. So for now I’m the punk romantic shaman guy. It is to be understood that, had I gone by the rules for such things – had I believed pop psychology and social convention, had I believed what people on the net told me about my poetry, had I never taken the leap of faith – I would have never gotten to read poetry to people at all. Julia gave me the inspiration, I did a lot of mental work to argue my way out of social traps, God did his thing, then I burst into freedom. There are some people that are introverted, and there are others that are inhibited. Often the introverts – people like you – have the most depth and as such have the most to offer in an art or poetry setting. There are several introverts at the poetry reading. They have the hardest time getting to speak, they are full of self-doubt, but when they do speak they are the ones that have the most to say. What they need is a boost of confidence. I knew a Russian language therapist who was treating a child who could not speak. After several months of maddening attempts to get the child to speak, she picked up a big red ball and started throwing it at the child, shouting "Catch – the ball! Catch – the ball!" This created such an overwhelming emotional experience that the kid started shouting, "Catch- the ball! Catch – the ball!" And the kid learned to speak. I still go back into my inhibited states of mind. Then I fight and claw my way out of them. Each battle shows another cultural lie, another kind of nonsense used to hold people down, another prison to blaze one’s way out of. Doing the work of a spiritual Houdini shows the contours of the civilization. And gives one insight into how to make a path to set others free.
Response:
On 5 Jul 2003 11:00:39 -0700, isham…@hotmail.com (Ilya Shambat) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Sacred Pnats <bowotro…@ohtrolleoh.com> wrote in message <news:orfdgvkbjj2o7t8sphpfh5p04k7qokrq2u@4ax.com>… >> ok Ilya, will you quit flaunting your extraverted experiences in ass and >> disclose tips for becoming a extravert like you? >Hi sweetie, >I’ve had quite a few inhibitions. In fact I was paralyzed with them >and frequently am still. The way I overcame them to be able to do this >stuff was through combination of love, divine intervention and rage. >I did magick to meet the best artist in the world. I met her. She gave >me my voice. She gave inspiration for my poetry. She taught me what >she knew about making it as an artist. She also gave me faith in >myself. >When she left for Florida, and I, having been laid off from my job and >unable to find another job, went back to live with my parents, I was >constantly getting their crap about how I supposedly am not socially >adequate. I kept in my mind the awareness of what I knew and refused >to accept the image that they were projecting upon me. One day I was >pacing in the basement and fighting for words within myself. I was >speaking out loud before a mirror, practicing at giving a speech. All >kinds of hateful voices – not out-loud voices, but voices within the >head – were shouting at me. I was getting more and more enraged. Then >I said finally I have had it! I burst out of myself and said, I will >go to DC right now and recite my poetry to people. >And I did. I got in my car. I busted a tire on the way there and then >walked 15 miles. Then I went into a restaurant. I asked the host if I >could recite some poetry to his customers. He said yes. So I started >coming up to couples and people who looked open and asked them, Would >you like me to recite you some poetry? To those who said yes, I >recited Mirage. I was radiating passion and energy. They were >grateful. Someone told me that she was hyper, and me sitting next to >her and talking to her relaxed her. >The next time I went to DC and did this, there was an open mic reading >at the Dupont Circle. So I passionately recited poem after poem, to >much applause. Someone called me "the punk romantic shaman guy." A >singer invited me to her performance at a coffee shop, and I recited >some poetry in between her songs. And then I learned about readings at >Teaism, which is where I began doing the open mic readings. >This is how I got involved in the black scene. The involvement with >the white scene was entirely accidental, as I stumbled upon a poetry >reading at a bookstore and recited one of my Tsvetaeva translations >that I had on hand. The people took interest in me, and I have been >attending their meetings. >I have had interesting conversations with couples about their >relationships, after I read them love poetry – on subways, in >restaurants. It is an excellent way to break the ice. I learn a lot >about people this way and share what I know. I have seen happy >couples, unhappy couples, and people who are well-intentioned but need >inspiration. >I have known personally and read the works by American originals. In >all cases, they had to invent themselves. The solutions just sort of >welled up from within, in a storm of fury. I can’t copy anyone else, I >have to be entirely self-creative. So for now I’m the punk romantic >shaman guy. >It is to be understood that, had I gone by the rules for such things – >had I believed pop psychology and social convention, had I believed >what people on the net told me about my poetry, had I never taken the >leap of faith – I would have never gotten to read poetry to people at >all. Julia gave me the inspiration, I did a lot of mental work to >argue my way out of social traps, God did his thing, then I burst into >freedom. >There are some people that are introverted, and there are others that >are inhibited. Often the introverts – people like you – have the most >depth and as such have the most to offer in an art or poetry setting. >There are several introverts at the poetry reading. They have the >hardest time getting to speak, they are full of self-doubt, but when >they do speak they are the ones that have the most to say. What they >need is a boost of confidence. >I knew a Russian language therapist who was treating a child who could >not speak. After several months of maddening attempts to get the child >to speak, she picked up a big red ball and started throwing it at the >child, shouting "Catch – the ball! Catch – the ball!" This created >such an overwhelming emotional experience that the kid started >shouting, "Catch- the ball! Catch – the ball!" And the kid learned to >speak. >I still go back into my inhibited states of mind. Then I fight and >claw my way out of them. Each battle shows another cultural lie, >another kind of nonsense used to hold people down, another prison to >blaze one’s way out of. Doing the work of a spiritual Houdini shows >the contours of the civilization. And gives one insight into how to >make a path to set others free.
Didn’t know you had lost your job. =( Sorry to hear that. I wish I had parents to go live with. I think I would go home to a nice quiet room and cry for 3 weeks. That is very brave just going to town and reciting poetry like that. I wish I could just cut loose with my art and just let it rip. Occasionally it happens but then crap from other people happens. The old how are you supposed to support yourself doing that speil. =( Pressure to conform to societal expectations. so then I scury around find a "regular day job" that is socially acceptable. so now I am doing what is expected of me. sigh… I even asked an ast rologer for help and they poo pooed me with the how am I going to support myself with art. =( sigh… sigh…
Response:
I thought it was possible to treat you like a human being, but apparently that’s not possible. Die, scum. Die. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -David O’Lantern <theda…@shell.rawbw.com> wrote in message <news:20030705092506.C80833@shell.rawbw.com>… > On Sat, 5 Jul 2003, Ilya Shambat gushed unblushingly: > [...] > > I am now a part of two poetry circles. > I.e. cliques of regulars who assemble in public places at posted times. > To be charged for refreshments, which is the businesses’ raison d’etre. > Those ain’t exactly Madame duFarce’s private literary salons, you ass; > it’s Poetry Nite at the Dipstick Saloon. They can only gain in stature > and exclusivity by barring you. > If you wait at the same bus stop every day at the same time and find a > small clutch of other people who are always there, does that make you > feel part of an elite group too? Wait, hey: out of 6 billion people on > earth, one of them might have just breathed in unison with you for two > or three minutes — maybe you’re mystically connected and should hunt > him/her down to share in that mutual specialness! > > One is all young and black, and the other is all old and white. > Yes, you’ll find a lot of unofficial segregation in DC. Or in any old > Southern slave city. Or any town of any size anywhere in the USA. So? > > I refine my work with the old white people and let it rip with young > > black ones. It is a matter of using the mind and the heart in a way > > that makes the best of both. > No, it’s a matter of trying to accomodate your overwhelming need to be > patted on your silly head to DC’s tacit strictures of ancient racism, > which you’ve just shown us you gladly feed on and reinforce — *while* > pretending to be against it. That you clearly do so out of a heedless > and pathetic desperation only shows you’re too stupid to be evil. > Congratulations, Ilya! Two Poetry Saloons have found a clown to share. > (You’ll know they really wuv you when they serve you *free* Kool-aid!) > BTDTingly, > The <= ex-poetaster extraordinaire
Response:
The woman who is called in DC poetry scene the High Priestess of Poetry gave me a hug yesterday as I came into the Euphoria bar. She started the reading with, "Everything is in divine order. What goes around, comes around," then went into a wild rendition of her poem "Who will save the children." Behind her a band was playing, Jimmy Peppermint and the Fish, accompanying every reader with music. When my turn came I closed my eyes, threw back my head and passionately recited Pieces, to wild applause from the audience. Then I went to Javahead cafe. The place was packed with black poets, and I was one of three white people there. A sweet young girl read this: "If we come as ashes and we leave as dust, why are you so full of shit?" Another, very very thin, girl ended her piece as something like the follows: "You ask me if I love you with my heart, but I love you with my ass. See how much is there? That’s how much I love you." Then a fellow with long hair sat down and read two gorgeous poems, one directed to a girl and writing about her wrenching struggles ("you grow your wings and they get cut off"), and another about how when he was in high school the black girls did not like him but the white girls did, which got him hated all around. He said something like, "I wanted love from all but I got hatred from everyone." Outside he masterfully fielded questions from people, with a serious expression, telling people that he wrote to mend lives, mainly his own but others if he can. I talked to him and told him I understood what he was writing about, and he said he loves it when he is understood by people who aren’t in his social group – that the art events are segregated on race, and when a white person understands what a black person is going through it is great. A burly man took the stage and said, "They tell me I’m nothing. What do I say to that?" From the audience came the words, "Fuck You." "They tell me I’m no good. What do I say to that?" "Fuck You." Then he played on his guitar a song he wrote for his homeless friend, "Sometimes I feel like a motherless child.. sometimes I feel like a homeless man.." A girl with sideburns talked about how someone said to her, "You know, the white boy culture is overlooked as a legitimate lifestyle." A burly white guy put his finger on his chin and said, "Hm.. the white boy culture" and I turned to him and echoed, "hm.. the white boy culture." She then read from Khalil Gibran, "Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life’s longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts. For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you. For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday. You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth. The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far. Let your bending in the archer’s hand be for gladness; For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable." A charismatic young fellow who comes from the worst of the ghetto and works in community activism did a poem about deep psychological pain. Then it was my turn. First I read Infinity from paper, then I closed my eyes and went into a trance and recited The Golden One. Then I wildly gesticulated and looked people in the eye as I recited Truth. From the audience came a voice, "We love you Ilya." The man conducting the reading commented how in The Golden One, "Greatness must always be self-creative," is a useful line for the poets to heed. I walked outside and ran into a man who was waiting for a bus. I sold him one of my books. When I walked back in, a tall fellow was reciting a poem that he wrote for his little daughter, with his little daughter in the audience. When he was done he came up to his daughter and gave her a hug. A woman with expression of strength on her face said, "In every woman’s life there are two first times. There is the first time and there is the first good time." Then she read a beautiful poem about how a man took her to "a place called ecstasy" which is "next to paradise and right across the street from agony." Then she sang. There was less political verse there than usual, which was a relief. People tend to ignore beauty of poetry when they write their political opinions, and I do not come to these readings in order to hear propaganda but rather to hear and share art. Poetry has to be artistic, first. Then it can be anything it wants to be. I am now a part of two poetry circles. One is all young and black, and the other is all old and white. I refine my work with the old white people and let it rip with young black ones. It is a matter of using the mind and the heart in a way that makes the best of both.
Response:
On 5 Jul 2003 01:48:32 -0700, isham…@hotmail.com (Ilya Shambat) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The woman who is called in DC poetry scene the High Priestess of >Poetry gave me a hug yesterday as I came into the Euphoria bar. She >started the reading with, "Everything is in divine order. What goes >around, comes around," then went into a wild rendition of her poem >"Who will save the children." Behind her a band was playing, Jimmy >Peppermint and the Fish, accompanying every reader with music. When my >turn came I closed my eyes, threw back my head and passionately >recited Pieces, to wild applause from the audience. >Then I went to Javahead cafe. The place was packed with black poets, >and I was one of three white people there. A sweet young girl read >this: "If we come as ashes and we leave as dust, why are you so full >of shit?" Another, very very thin, girl ended her piece as something >like the follows: "You ask me if I love you with my heart, but I love >you with my ass. See how much is there? That’s how much I love you." >Then a fellow with long hair sat down and read two gorgeous poems, one >directed to a girl and writing about her wrenching struggles ("you >grow your wings and they get cut off"), and another about how when he >was in high school the black girls did not like him but the white >girls did, which got him hated all around. He said something like, "I >wanted love from all but I got hatred from everyone." Outside he >masterfully fielded questions from people, with a serious expression, >telling people that he wrote to mend lives, mainly his own but others >if he can. I talked to him and told him I understood what he was >writing about, and he said he loves it when he is understood by people >who aren’t in his social group – that the art events are segregated on >race, and when a white person understands what a black person is going >through it is great. >A burly man took the stage and said, "They tell me I’m nothing. What >do I say to that?" From the audience came the words, "Fuck You." "They >tell me I’m no good. What do I say to that?" "Fuck You." Then he >played on his guitar a song he wrote for his homeless friend, >"Sometimes I feel like a motherless child.. sometimes I feel like a >homeless man.." >A girl with sideburns talked about how someone said to her, "You know, >the white boy culture is overlooked as a legitimate lifestyle." A >burly white guy put his finger on his chin and said, "Hm.. the white >boy culture" and I turned to him and echoed, "hm.. the white boy >culture." She then read from Khalil Gibran, "Your children are not >your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life’s longing for >itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are >with you, yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but >not your thoughts. For they have their own thoughts. You may house >their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house >of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. You may >strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you. For life >goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday. You are the bows from >which your children as living arrows are sent forth. The archer sees >the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His >might that His arrows may go swift and far. Let your bending in the >archer’s hand be for gladness; For even as he loves the arrow that >flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable." >A charismatic young fellow who comes from the worst of the ghetto and >works in community activism did a poem about deep psychological pain. >Then it was my turn. >First I read Infinity from paper, then I closed my eyes and went into >a trance and recited The Golden One. Then I wildly gesticulated and >looked people in the eye as I recited Truth. From the audience came a >voice, "We love you Ilya." The man conducting the reading commented >how in The Golden One, "Greatness must always be self-creative," is a >useful line for the poets to heed. >I walked outside and ran into a man who was waiting for a bus. I sold >him one of my books. When I walked back in, a tall fellow was reciting >a poem that he wrote for his little daughter, with his little daughter >in the audience. When he was done he came up to his daughter and gave >her a hug. >A woman with expression of strength on her face said, "In every >woman’s life there are two first times. There is the first time and >there is the first good time." Then she read a beautiful poem about >how a man took her to "a place called ecstasy" which is "next to >paradise and right across the street from agony." Then she sang. >There was less political verse there than usual, which was a relief. >People tend to ignore beauty of poetry when they write their political >opinions, and I do not come to these readings in order to hear >propaganda but rather to hear and share art. Poetry has to be >artistic, first. Then it can be anything it wants to be. >I am now a part of two poetry circles. One is all young and black, and >the other is all old and white. I refine my work with the old white >people and let it rip with young black ones. It is a matter of using >the mind and the heart in a way that makes the best of both.
ok Ilya, will you quit flaunting your extraverted experiences in ass and disclose tips for becoming a extravert like you?
Response:
Question:
damn I must be good. The great asleez khan admits defeat again.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No need to reply, Once again you have spoken a lie, there is too much to say but is useless. Brush message His head should be placed on a steak and left to rot on thw whitehouse lawn — No need to reply, Once I have spoken, there is nothing more to say. Rush The US Intelligence community, the US military and the US State and new Home defense departments have failed America and the World Community by neglecting to pay attention to the root causes of Terrorism. John Walker Lindh the "American Taliban" is the embarrassing proof of this failure. It does not make sense to Americans that John Walker Lindh should be found amongst the Taliban and, seemingly, willing to take up arms against fellow Americans. Unless he is seen in the more probable and logical context that he is a victim of modern mind control and cult techniques. At which point he becomes a shining example of what destructive powers a religious cult using mind control can bring to bear on a fellow citizen. The American public well knows how mind control cults can turn members into martyrs, like with Jonestown and Hale Bop, or how cults can turn members into terrorists, as in the Aum Shinrikyo sarin gas attacks in the Tokyo subways. The Al-Qaida terrorist network is, at its core, a religious cult that is also manufacturing mind controlled cult martyrs and terrorists. These terrorists and martyrs have become of a similar mind to those people that played out the tragedies in Jonestown, Hale Bop and in the Aum Shinrikyo attacks and, not much different to the religious martyrs now turning Israel into a living hell. Is not an illusion that today’s mind control is so powerful that it can quickly and efficiently manufacture cult martyrs and terrorists. Just look at the extraordinary power that mind control techniques had as long as 50 years ago and then bear in mind the huge progress that has been made in refining these techniques up to the present day. In the late 1940’s, when mind control technology was in its infancy, our toughest captured Air Force pilots were broken down by Korean mind control in just a matter of months. This was so effectively done that, to the shock of the American public, our most patriotic and gung-ho military pilots publicly renounced their country, and everything it stood for, on Korean TV. During the Russian occupation of Poland, Catholic Cardinal Minzinski publicly crumbled under Russian mind control and quickly renounced Catholicism – a faith to which he had dedicated his whole life. During the 1940’s modern science refined, expanded and augmented the rudimentary and empirically discovered mind control techniques that had been practiced by fanatical religious and political cults for centuries and often used in initiation rituals by secret societies. Over the last 50 years through on-going research our modern science has now made mind control so powerful that it can now take almost any person and create a completely new person with new values ideas and actions — and John Walker is living proof of that. When modern mind control technology is applied in the setting of a destructive cult to fight for either a legitimate issue or an illegitimate issue, it can turn a person, who would normally be a law abiding advocate for that issue, into a terrorist or martyr for that issue — all without the person’s ever knowing that an intentional mind control program had been surreptitiously applied. In the early 1990s, Salman Rushdie warned us that brainwashing (another name for mind control) was being used by Islamic fundamentalists and that it was a real threat to Western civilization. The mind control that affected John Walker was applied in the Islamic fundamentalist religious schools that he was recruited to. It was there that he was being turned into a soldier for a fundamentalist sect. What started as the expression of a religious idea or ideal was twisted through mind control into political activism aimed straight back at the very things he loved. When you begin to consider that the current wave of world wide religious and political terrorism is as much being caused by mind control being applied in the dynamics of cult settings as being caused by legitimate or illegitimate issues, you will then be able to begin to see the actual causes of this new wave of terrorism and not just its horrific symptoms. We are fully aware that there are many other causes that have lead us to this sorry state of International Terror and malevolently disposed religious fundamentalism. Poverty, political disputes, old grudges and demagoguery have all played a part. Some of these grievances are legitimate but they can be turned to violence with just the right application of the power of modern mind control. We are also aware that there are many "isms" out there that can lead to the destruction of all we hold dear. We cannot legislate against the "isms" that give discontent its form. But, what we can do is to pay special attention to those mind control techniques that allow organizations to turn people into automatons and into weapons. We must pay special attention to the powerful new techniques that diminish people’s capacity to think for themselves. The fatal flaw in America’s current war on terrorism is that it is mostly about dealing with the symptoms that are manifested as terrorism and not about dealing with the true causes of terrorism. Our current first line of defense is our intelligence gathering. It should also be about recognizing and preventing the causes of terrorism and not be consumed with "recognizing" terrorists after they have completed their training and are about to act. Our second line of defense, at the moment, is the increasingly expensive security that is unpleasantly changing the way we all live. It, too, is only currently dealing the symptoms and not the causes of terrorism. Our last line of defense is the extremely expensive military retaliation after a terrorist act occurs. Which is always too little, too late. All of our attention to symptoms makes America appear, in the eyes of the world, to be reactionary and lacking the intellectual rigor or political will to deal proactively with the actual causes of terrorism. Dealing only with symptoms is a very slippery slope to be caught on. If Americans knew where the path that they were on led to, would they chose to remain on it? Will America, like Israel & Northern Ireland & Rhodesia (Zimbawe) & South Africa (During the Apartheid era) & the old Soviet Union move ever closer to martial law because of a lack of imagination regarding issues that threaten the nation? Will America become a nation driven by fear? Are we living through the twilight years of our Civil Liberties? Will we lose sight of those higher aspirations that made America great because cannot separate the woods from the trees? America’s current war on terrorism is perilously flawed without a powerfully-executed, inoculative and preventative educational program on the tactics of mind control and destructive cults that is widely available in every language where these cults exists. It is as irrational to charge John Walker with "conspiring with terrorists" as it would have been to put those captured and brainwashed 1940’s US Air Force pilots on trial for being traitors to their country. John Walker is as much of a victim as they were. Maybe even more so because mind control has advanced 50 years since the Korean War. To add insult to injury, putting John Walker on trial for treason, terrorism or conspiracy with the enemy without providing independent outside cult and mind control experts to examine what had happened to him after he was recruited by the fundamentalist Islamic group who sent him to the Al-Qaida would be a gross lack of due diligence for Walker’s attorney James Brosnahan as well as for the government prosecutors James Kelley and Randy Bellows. To say that it would be grounds for a malpractice lawsuit against the defense lawyers, grounds for an appeal of any verdict as well as grounds for the removal of any judge who would allow such an injustice to be allowed is an understatement. Without John Walker being pre-trial examined by independent, court-certified cult and mind control experts like David Clark of Harvard or Dr Margaret Singer, professor emeritus UC Berkeley, any "show trial" of John Walker besides being a travesty of justice is a clear sign of the governments desperation for a conviction at the expense of common sense – not to mention common law. John Walker
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Response:
No need to reply, Once again you have spoken a lie, there is too much to say but is useless. Brush – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – His head should be placed on a steak and left to rot on thw whitehouse lawn — No need to reply, Once I have spoken, there is nothing more to say. Rush The US Intelligence community, the US military and the US State and new Home defense departments have failed America and the World Community by neglecting to pay attention to the root causes of Terrorism. John Walker Lindh the "American Taliban" is the embarrassing proof of this failure. It does not make sense to Americans that John Walker Lindh should be found amongst the Taliban and, seemingly, willing to take up arms against fellow Americans. Unless he is seen in the more probable and logical context that he is a victim of modern mind control and cult techniques. At which point he becomes a shining example of what destructive powers a religious cult using mind control can bring to bear on a fellow citizen. The American public well knows how mind control cults can turn members into martyrs, like with Jonestown and Hale Bop, or how cults can turn members into terrorists, as in the Aum Shinrikyo sarin gas attacks in the Tokyo subways. The Al-Qaida terrorist network is, at its core, a religious cult that is also manufacturing mind controlled cult martyrs and terrorists. These terrorists and martyrs have become of a similar mind to those people that played out the tragedies in Jonestown, Hale Bop and in the Aum Shinrikyo attacks and, not much different to the religious martyrs now turning Israel into a living hell. Is not an illusion that today’s mind control is so powerful that it can quickly and efficiently manufacture cult martyrs and terrorists. Just look at the extraordinary power that mind control techniques had as long as 50 years ago and then bear in mind the huge progress that has been made in refining these techniques up to the present day. In the late 1940’s, when mind control technology was in its infancy, our toughest captured Air Force pilots were broken down by Korean mind control in just a matter of months. This was so effectively done that, to the shock of the American public, our most patriotic and gung-ho military pilots publicly renounced their country, and everything it stood for, on Korean TV. During the Russian occupation of Poland, Catholic Cardinal Minzinski publicly crumbled under Russian mind control and quickly renounced Catholicism – a faith to which he had dedicated his whole life. During the 1940’s modern science refined, expanded and augmented the rudimentary and empirically discovered mind control techniques that had been practiced by fanatical religious and political cults for centuries and often used in initiation rituals by secret societies. Over the last 50 years through on-going research our modern science has now made mind control so powerful that it can now take almost any person and create a completely new person with new values ideas and actions — and John Walker is living proof of that. When modern mind control technology is applied in the setting of a destructive cult to fight for either a legitimate issue or an illegitimate issue, it can turn a person, who would normally be a law abiding advocate for that issue, into a terrorist or martyr for that issue — all without the person’s ever knowing that an intentional mind control program had been surreptitiously applied. In the early 1990s, Salman Rushdie warned us that brainwashing (another name for mind control) was being used by Islamic fundamentalists and that it was a real threat to Western civilization. The mind control that affected John Walker was applied in the Islamic fundamentalist religious schools that he was recruited to. It was there that he was being turned into a soldier for a fundamentalist sect. What started as the expression of a religious idea or ideal was twisted through mind control into political activism aimed straight back at the very things he loved. When you begin to consider that the current wave of world wide religious and political terrorism is as much being caused by mind control being applied in the dynamics of cult settings as being caused by legitimate or illegitimate issues, you will then be able to begin to see the actual causes of this new wave of terrorism and not just its horrific symptoms. We are fully aware that there are many other causes that have lead us to this sorry state of International Terror and malevolently disposed religious fundamentalism. Poverty, political disputes, old grudges and demagoguery have all played a part. Some of these grievances are legitimate but they can be turned to violence with just the right application of the power of modern mind control. We are also aware that there are many "isms" out there that can lead to the destruction of all we hold dear. We cannot legislate against the "isms" that give discontent its form. But, what we can do is to pay special attention to those mind control techniques that allow organizations to turn people into automatons and into weapons. We must pay special attention to the powerful new techniques that diminish people’s capacity to think for themselves. The fatal flaw in America’s current war on terrorism is that it is mostly about dealing with the symptoms that are manifested as terrorism and not about dealing with the true causes of terrorism. Our current first line of defense is our intelligence gathering. It should also be about recognizing and preventing the causes of terrorism and not be consumed with "recognizing" terrorists after they have completed their training and are about to act. Our second line of defense, at the moment, is the increasingly expensive security that is unpleasantly changing the way we all live. It, too, is only currently dealing the symptoms and not the causes of terrorism. Our last line of defense is the extremely expensive military retaliation after a terrorist act occurs. Which is always too little, too late. All of our attention to symptoms makes America appear, in the eyes of the world, to be reactionary and lacking the intellectual rigor or political will to deal proactively with the actual causes of terrorism. Dealing only with symptoms is a very slippery slope to be caught on. If Americans knew where the path that they were on led to, would they chose to remain on it? Will America, like Israel & Northern Ireland & Rhodesia (Zimbawe) & South Africa (During the Apartheid era) & the old Soviet Union move ever closer to martial law because of a lack of imagination regarding issues that threaten the nation? Will America become a nation driven by fear? Are we living through the twilight years of our Civil Liberties? Will we lose sight of those higher aspirations that made America great because cannot separate the woods from the trees? America’s current war on terrorism is perilously flawed without a powerfully-executed, inoculative and preventative educational program on the tactics of mind control and destructive cults that is widely available in every language where these cults exists. It is as irrational to charge John Walker with "conspiring with terrorists" as it would have been to put those captured and brainwashed 1940’s US Air Force pilots on trial for being traitors to their country. John Walker is as much of a victim as they were. Maybe even more so because mind control has advanced 50 years since the Korean War. To add insult to injury, putting John Walker on trial for treason, terrorism or conspiracy with the enemy without providing independent outside cult and mind control experts to examine what had happened to him after he was recruited by the fundamentalist Islamic group who sent him to the Al-Qaida would be a gross lack of due diligence for Walker’s attorney James Brosnahan as well as for the government prosecutors James Kelley and Randy Bellows. To say that it would be grounds for a malpractice lawsuit against the defense lawyers, grounds for an appeal of any verdict as well as grounds for the removal of any judge who would allow such an injustice to be allowed is an understatement. Without John Walker being pre-trial examined by independent, court-certified cult and mind control experts like David Clark of Harvard or Dr Margaret Singer, professor emeritus UC Berkeley, any "show trial" of John Walker besides being a travesty of justice is a clear sign of the governments desperation for a conviction at the expense of common sense – not to mention common law. John Walker is not himself the fatal flaw in our war on terrorism just the pointer to it. Part of that fatal flaw exists in that in just a few months we have now spent over 100 billion dollars dealing with the violent symptoms of a terrorist mind control cult and we have not spent 10,000 dollars on cult and mind control education to cut off the flow of cult recruits or to turn former cult members into valuable intelligence sources or to turn existing cult members into double
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Response:
Yes, excelent idea, along with the rest of the terrorists.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – yeah, but first they should nail him to a wall, cut open his belly, pull out his guts and drape them around his filthy preppie neck! message His head should be placed on a steak and left to rot on thw whitehouse lawn — No need to reply, Once I have spoken, there is nothing more to say. Rush The US Intelligence community, the US military and the US State and new Home defense departments have failed America and the World Community by neglecting to pay attention to the root causes of Terrorism. John Walker Lindh the "American Taliban" is the embarrassing proof of this failure. It does not make sense to Americans that John Walker Lindh should be found amongst the Taliban and, seemingly, willing to take up arms against fellow Americans. Unless he is seen in the more probable and logical context that he is a victim of modern mind control and cult techniques. At which point he becomes a shining example of what destructive powers a religious cult using mind control can bring to bear on a fellow citizen. The American public well knows how mind control cults can turn members into martyrs, like with Jonestown and Hale Bop, or how cults can turn members into terrorists, as in the Aum Shinrikyo sarin gas attacks in the Tokyo subways. The Al-Qaida terrorist network is, at its core, a religious cult that is also manufacturing mind controlled cult martyrs and terrorists. These terrorists and martyrs have become of a similar mind to those people that played out the tragedies in Jonestown, Hale Bop and in the Aum Shinrikyo attacks and, not much different to the religious martyrs now turning Israel into a living hell. Is not an illusion that today’s mind control is so powerful that it can quickly and efficiently manufacture cult martyrs and terrorists. Just look at the extraordinary power that mind control techniques had as long as 50 years ago and then bear in mind the huge progress that has been made in refining these techniques up to the present day. In the late 1940’s, when mind control technology was in its infancy, our toughest captured Air Force pilots were broken down by Korean mind control in just a matter of months. This was so effectively done that, to the shock of the American public, our most patriotic and gung-ho military pilots publicly renounced their country, and everything it stood for, on Korean TV. During the Russian occupation of Poland, Catholic Cardinal Minzinski publicly crumbled under Russian mind control and quickly renounced Catholicism – a faith to which he had dedicated his whole life. During the 1940’s modern science refined, expanded and augmented the rudimentary and empirically discovered mind control techniques that had been practiced by fanatical religious and political cults for centuries and often used in initiation rituals by secret societies. Over the last 50 years through on-going research our modern science has now made mind control so powerful that it can now take almost any person and create a completely new person with new values ideas and actions — and John Walker is living proof of that. When modern mind control technology is applied in the setting of a destructive cult to fight for either a legitimate issue or an illegitimate issue, it can turn a person, who would normally be a law abiding advocate for that issue, into a terrorist or martyr for that issue — all without the person’s ever knowing that an intentional mind control program had been surreptitiously applied. In the early 1990s, Salman Rushdie warned us that brainwashing (another name for mind control) was being used by Islamic fundamentalists and that it was a real threat to Western civilization. The mind control that affected John Walker was applied in the Islamic fundamentalist religious schools that he was recruited to. It was there that he was being turned into a soldier for a fundamentalist sect. What started as the expression of a religious idea or ideal was twisted through mind control into political activism aimed straight back at the very things he loved. When you begin to consider that the current wave of world wide religious and political terrorism is as much being caused by mind control being applied in the dynamics of cult settings as being caused by legitimate or illegitimate issues, you will then be able to begin to see the actual causes of this new wave of terrorism and not just its horrific symptoms. We are fully aware that there are many other causes that have lead us to this sorry state of International Terror and malevolently disposed religious fundamentalism. Poverty, political disputes, old grudges and demagoguery have all played a part. Some of these grievances are legitimate but they can be turned to violence with just the right application of the power of modern mind control. We are also aware that there are many "isms" out there that can lead to the destruction of all we hold dear. We cannot legislate against the "isms" that give discontent its form. But, what we can do is to pay special attention to those mind control techniques that allow organizations to turn people into automatons and into weapons. We must pay special attention to the powerful new techniques that diminish people’s capacity to think for themselves. The fatal flaw in America’s current war on terrorism is that it is mostly about dealing with the symptoms that are manifested as terrorism and not about dealing with the true causes of terrorism. Our current first line of defense is our intelligence gathering. It should also be about recognizing and preventing the causes of terrorism and not be consumed with "recognizing" terrorists after they have completed their training and are about to act. Our second line of defense, at the moment, is the increasingly expensive security that is unpleasantly changing the way we all live. It, too, is only currently dealing the symptoms and not the causes of terrorism. Our last line of defense is the extremely expensive military retaliation after a terrorist act occurs. Which is always too little, too late. All of our attention to symptoms makes America appear, in the eyes of the world, to be reactionary and lacking the intellectual rigor or political will to deal proactively with the actual causes of terrorism. Dealing only with symptoms is a very slippery slope to be caught on. If Americans knew where the path that they were on led to, would they chose to remain on it? Will America, like Israel & Northern Ireland & Rhodesia (Zimbawe) & South Africa (During the Apartheid era) & the old Soviet Union move ever closer to martial law because of a lack of imagination regarding issues that threaten the nation? Will America become a nation driven by fear? Are we living through the twilight years of our Civil Liberties? Will we lose sight of those higher aspirations that made America great because cannot separate the woods from the trees? America’s current war on terrorism is perilously flawed without a powerfully-executed, inoculative and preventative educational program on the tactics of mind control and destructive cults that is widely available in every language where these cults exists. It is as irrational to charge John Walker with "conspiring with terrorists" as it would have been to put those captured and brainwashed 1940’s US Air Force pilots on trial for being traitors to their country. John Walker is as much of a victim as they were. Maybe even more so because mind control has advanced 50 years since the Korean War. To add insult to injury, putting John Walker on trial for treason, terrorism or conspiracy with the enemy without providing independent outside cult and mind control experts to examine what had happened to him after he was recruited by the fundamentalist Islamic group who sent him to the Al-Qaida would be a gross lack of due diligence for Walker’s attorney James Brosnahan as well as for the government prosecutors James Kelley and Randy Bellows. To say that it would be grounds for a malpractice lawsuit against the defense lawyers, grounds for an appeal of any verdict as well as grounds for the removal of any judge who would allow such an injustice to be allowed is an understatement. Without John Walker being pre-trial examined by independent, court-certified cult and mind control experts like David Clark of Harvard or Dr Margaret Singer, professor emeritus UC Berkeley, any "show trial" of John Walker besides being a travesty of justice is a clear sign of the governments desperation for a conviction at the expense of common sense – not to mention common law. John Walker is not himself the fatal flaw
… read more »
Response:
yeah, but first they should nail him to a wall, cut open his belly, pull out his guts and drape them around his filthy preppie neck! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – His head should be placed on a steak and left to rot on thw whitehouse lawn — No need to reply, Once I have spoken, there is nothing more to say. Rush The US Intelligence community, the US military and the US State and new Home defense departments have failed America and the World Community by neglecting to pay attention to the root causes of Terrorism. John Walker Lindh the "American Taliban" is the embarrassing proof of this failure. It does not make sense to Americans that John Walker Lindh should be found amongst the Taliban and, seemingly, willing to take up arms against fellow Americans. Unless he is seen in the more probable and logical context that he is a victim of modern mind control and cult techniques. At which point he becomes a shining example of what destructive powers a religious cult using mind control can bring to bear on a fellow citizen. The American public well knows how mind control cults can turn members into martyrs, like with Jonestown and Hale Bop, or how cults can turn members into terrorists, as in the Aum Shinrikyo sarin gas attacks in the Tokyo subways. The Al-Qaida terrorist network is, at its core, a religious cult that is also manufacturing mind controlled cult martyrs and terrorists. These terrorists and martyrs have become of a similar mind to those people that played out the tragedies in Jonestown, Hale Bop and in the Aum Shinrikyo attacks and, not much different to the religious martyrs now turning Israel into a living hell. Is not an illusion that today’s mind control is so powerful that it can quickly and efficiently manufacture cult martyrs and terrorists. Just look at the extraordinary power that mind control techniques had as long as 50 years ago and then bear in mind the huge progress that has been made in refining these techniques up to the present day. In the late 1940’s, when mind control technology was in its infancy, our toughest captured Air Force pilots were broken down by Korean mind control in just a matter of months. This was so effectively done that, to the shock of the American public, our most patriotic and gung-ho military pilots publicly renounced their country, and everything it stood for, on Korean TV. During the Russian occupation of Poland, Catholic Cardinal Minzinski publicly crumbled under Russian mind control and quickly renounced Catholicism – a faith to which he had dedicated his whole life. During the 1940’s modern science refined, expanded and augmented the rudimentary and empirically discovered mind control techniques that had been practiced by fanatical religious and political cults for centuries and often used in initiation rituals by secret societies. Over the last 50 years through on-going research our modern science has now made mind control so powerful that it can now take almost any person and create a completely new person with new values ideas and actions — and John Walker is living proof of that. When modern mind control technology is applied in the setting of a destructive cult to fight for either a legitimate issue or an illegitimate issue, it can turn a person, who would normally be a law abiding advocate for that issue, into a terrorist or martyr for that issue — all without the person’s ever knowing that an intentional mind control program had been surreptitiously applied. In the early 1990s, Salman Rushdie warned us that brainwashing (another name for mind control) was being used by Islamic fundamentalists and that it was a real threat to Western civilization. The mind control that affected John Walker was applied in the Islamic fundamentalist religious schools that he was recruited to. It was there that he was being turned into a soldier for a fundamentalist sect. What started as the expression of a religious idea or ideal was twisted through mind control into political activism aimed straight back at the very things he loved. When you begin to consider that the current wave of world wide religious and political terrorism is as much being caused by mind control being applied in the dynamics of cult settings as being caused by legitimate or illegitimate issues, you will then be able to begin to see the actual causes of this new wave of terrorism and not just its horrific symptoms. We are fully aware that there are many other causes that have lead us to this sorry state of International Terror and malevolently disposed religious fundamentalism. Poverty, political disputes, old grudges and demagoguery have all played a part. Some of these grievances are legitimate but they can be turned to violence with just the right application of the power of modern mind control. We are also aware that there are many "isms" out there that can lead to the destruction of all we hold dear. We cannot legislate against the "isms" that give discontent its form. But, what we can do is to pay special attention to those mind control techniques that allow organizations to turn people into automatons and into weapons. We must pay special attention to the powerful new techniques that diminish people’s capacity to think for themselves. The fatal flaw in America’s current war on terrorism is that it is mostly about dealing with the symptoms that are manifested as terrorism and not about dealing with the true causes of terrorism. Our current first line of defense is our intelligence gathering. It should also be about recognizing and preventing the causes of terrorism and not be consumed with "recognizing" terrorists after they have completed their training and are about to act. Our second line of defense, at the moment, is the increasingly expensive security that is unpleasantly changing the way we all live. It, too, is only currently dealing the symptoms and not the causes of terrorism. Our last line of defense is the extremely expensive military retaliation after a terrorist act occurs. Which is always too little, too late. All of our attention to symptoms makes America appear, in the eyes of the world, to be reactionary and lacking the intellectual rigor or political will to deal proactively with the actual causes of terrorism. Dealing only with symptoms is a very slippery slope to be caught on. If Americans knew where the path that they were on led to, would they chose to remain on it? Will America, like Israel & Northern Ireland & Rhodesia (Zimbawe) & South Africa (During the Apartheid era) & the old Soviet Union move ever closer to martial law because of a lack of imagination regarding issues that threaten the nation? Will America become a nation driven by fear? Are we living through the twilight years of our Civil Liberties? Will we lose sight of those higher aspirations that made America great because cannot separate the woods from the trees? America’s current war on terrorism is perilously flawed without a powerfully-executed, inoculative and preventative educational program on the tactics of mind control and destructive cults that is widely available in every language where these cults exists. It is as irrational to charge John Walker with "conspiring with terrorists" as it would have been to put those captured and brainwashed 1940’s US Air Force pilots on trial for being traitors to their country. John Walker is as much of a victim as they were. Maybe even more so because mind control has advanced 50 years since the Korean War. To add insult to injury, putting John Walker on trial for treason, terrorism or conspiracy with the enemy without providing independent outside cult and mind control experts to examine what had happened to him after he was recruited by the fundamentalist Islamic group who sent him to the Al-Qaida would be a gross lack of due diligence for Walker’s attorney James Brosnahan as well as for the government prosecutors James Kelley and Randy Bellows. To say that it would be grounds for a malpractice lawsuit against the defense lawyers, grounds for an appeal of any verdict as well as grounds for the removal of any judge who would allow such an injustice to be allowed is an understatement. Without John Walker being pre-trial examined by independent, court-certified cult and mind control experts like David Clark of Harvard or Dr Margaret Singer, professor emeritus UC Berkeley, any "show trial" of John Walker besides being a travesty of justice is a clear sign of the governments desperation for a conviction at the expense of common sense – not to mention common law. John Walker is not himself the fatal flaw in our war on terrorism just the pointer to it. Part of that fatal flaw exists in that in just a few months we have now spent over 100 billion dollars dealing with the violent symptoms of a terrorist mind control cult and we have not spent 10,000 dollars on cult and mind control education to cut off the flow of cult recruits or to turn former cult members into valuable intelligence sources or to turn existing cult members into double agents.
… read more »
Response:
His head should be placed on a steak and left to rot on thw whitehouse lawn — No need to reply, Once I have spoken, there is nothing more to say. Rush
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The US Intelligence community, the US military and the US State and new Home defense departments have failed America and the World Community by neglecting to pay attention to the root causes of Terrorism. John Walker Lindh the "American Taliban" is the embarrassing proof of this failure. It does not make sense to Americans that John Walker Lindh should be found amongst the Taliban and, seemingly, willing to take up arms against fellow Americans. Unless he is seen in the more probable and logical context that he is a victim of modern mind control and cult techniques. At which point he becomes a shining example of what destructive powers a religious cult using mind control can bring to bear on a fellow citizen. The American public well knows how mind control cults can turn members into martyrs, like with Jonestown and Hale Bop, or how cults can turn members into terrorists, as in the Aum Shinrikyo sarin gas attacks in the Tokyo subways. The Al-Qaida terrorist network is, at its core, a religious cult that is also manufacturing mind controlled cult martyrs and terrorists. These terrorists and martyrs have become of a similar mind to those people that played out the tragedies in Jonestown, Hale Bop and in the Aum Shinrikyo attacks and, not much different to the religious martyrs now turning Israel into a living hell. Is not an illusion that today’s mind control is so powerful that it can quickly and efficiently manufacture cult martyrs and terrorists. Just look at the extraordinary power that mind control techniques had as long as 50 years ago and then bear in mind the huge progress that has been made in refining these techniques up to the present day. In the late 1940’s, when mind control technology was in its infancy, our toughest captured Air Force pilots were broken down by Korean mind control in just a matter of months. This was so effectively done that, to the shock of the American public, our most patriotic and gung-ho military pilots publicly renounced their country, and everything it stood for, on Korean TV. During the Russian occupation of Poland, Catholic Cardinal Minzinski publicly crumbled under Russian mind control and quickly renounced Catholicism – a faith to which he had dedicated his whole life. During the 1940’s modern science refined, expanded and augmented the rudimentary and empirically discovered mind control techniques that had been practiced by fanatical religious and political cults for centuries and often used in initiation rituals by secret societies. Over the last 50 years through on-going research our modern science has now made mind control so powerful that it can now take almost any person and create a completely new person with new values ideas and actions — and John Walker is living proof of that. When modern mind control technology is applied in the setting of a destructive cult to fight for either a legitimate issue or an illegitimate issue, it can turn a person, who would normally be a law abiding advocate for that issue, into a terrorist or martyr for that issue — all without the person’s ever knowing that an intentional mind control program had been surreptitiously applied. In the early 1990s, Salman Rushdie warned us that brainwashing (another name for mind control) was being used by Islamic fundamentalists and that it was a real threat to Western civilization. The mind control that affected John Walker was applied in the Islamic fundamentalist religious schools that he was recruited to. It was there that he was being turned into a soldier for a fundamentalist sect. What started as the expression of a religious idea or ideal was twisted through mind control into political activism aimed straight back at the very things he loved. When you begin to consider that the current wave of world wide religious and political terrorism is as much being caused by mind control being applied in the dynamics of cult settings as being caused by legitimate or illegitimate issues, you will then be able to begin to see the actual causes of this new wave of terrorism and not just its horrific symptoms. We are fully aware that there are many other causes that have lead us to this sorry state of International Terror and malevolently disposed religious fundamentalism. Poverty, political disputes, old grudges and demagoguery have all played a part. Some of these grievances are legitimate but they can be turned to violence with just the right application of the power of modern mind control. We are also aware that there are many "isms" out there that can lead to the destruction of all we hold dear. We cannot legislate against the "isms" that give discontent its form. But, what we can do is to pay special attention to those mind control techniques that allow organizations to turn people into automatons and into weapons. We must pay special attention to the powerful new techniques that diminish people’s capacity to think for themselves. The fatal flaw in America’s current war on terrorism is that it is mostly about dealing with the symptoms that are manifested as terrorism and not about dealing with the true causes of terrorism. Our current first line of defense is our intelligence gathering. It should also be about recognizing and preventing the causes of terrorism and not be consumed with "recognizing" terrorists after they have completed their training and are about to act. Our second line of defense, at the moment, is the increasingly expensive security that is unpleasantly changing the way we all live. It, too, is only currently dealing the symptoms and not the causes of terrorism. Our last line of defense is the extremely expensive military retaliation after a terrorist act occurs. Which is always too little, too late. All of our attention to symptoms makes America appear, in the eyes of the world, to be reactionary and lacking the intellectual rigor or political will to deal proactively with the actual causes of terrorism. Dealing only with symptoms is a very slippery slope to be caught on. If Americans knew where the path that they were on led to, would they chose to remain on it? Will America, like Israel & Northern Ireland & Rhodesia (Zimbawe) & South Africa (During the Apartheid era) & the old Soviet Union move ever closer to martial law because of a lack of imagination regarding issues that threaten the nation? Will America become a nation driven by fear? Are we living through the twilight years of our Civil Liberties? Will we lose sight of those higher aspirations that made America great because cannot separate the woods from the trees? America’s current war on terrorism is perilously flawed without a powerfully-executed, inoculative and preventative educational program on the tactics of mind control and destructive cults that is widely available in every language where these cults exists. It is as irrational to charge John Walker with "conspiring with terrorists" as it would have been to put those captured and brainwashed 1940’s US Air Force pilots on trial for being traitors to their country. John Walker is as much of a victim as they were. Maybe even more so because mind control has advanced 50 years since the Korean War. To add insult to injury, putting John Walker on trial for treason, terrorism or conspiracy with the enemy without providing independent outside cult and mind control experts to examine what had happened to him after he was recruited by the fundamentalist Islamic group who sent him to the Al-Qaida would be a gross lack of due diligence for Walker’s attorney James Brosnahan as well as for the government prosecutors James Kelley and Randy Bellows. To say that it would be grounds for a malpractice lawsuit against the defense lawyers, grounds for an appeal of any verdict as well as grounds for the removal of any judge who would allow such an injustice to be allowed is an understatement. Without John Walker being pre-trial examined by independent, court-certified cult and mind control experts like David Clark of Harvard or Dr Margaret Singer, professor emeritus UC Berkeley, any "show trial" of John Walker besides being a travesty of justice is a clear sign of the governments desperation for a conviction at the expense of common sense – not to mention common law. John Walker is not himself the fatal flaw in our war on terrorism just the pointer to it. Part of that fatal flaw exists in that in just a few months we have now spent over 100 billion dollars dealing with the violent symptoms of a terrorist mind control cult and we have not spent 10,000 dollars on cult and mind control education to cut off the flow of cult recruits or to turn former cult members into valuable intelligence sources or to turn existing cult members into double agents. Widespread education on how mind control works in destructive cults is the first line of cost effective prevention and population inoculation that finally deals with the real causes of the manufacturing system that creates martyrs and terrorists. (This does not imply that we do not also have to address legitimate grievances or injustices, but unless we deal with the mind control and cult machinery that turns those legitimate grievances or injustices onto martyrdom or terrorism we will have an almost impossible task to get out of the dwindling spiral of terrorism increased
… read more »
Response:
Is not an illusion that today’s mind control is so powerful that it can quickly and efficiently manufacture cult martyrs and terrorists. Just look at the extraordinary power that mind control techniques had as long as 50 years ago and then bear in mind the huge progress that has been made in refining these techniques up to the present day.
Ah, yes, mind control. It’s such an insidious double-edged sword. How can we know for sure that the above essay wasn’t written under the influence of some sort of mind control? And perhaps those who read it are already within the grip of some cruel stimulus-response hypnno-commands compelling them to accept every word? Or perhaps those reading this are confident that they aren’t brainwashed in any case. Of course, if it were really good mind control, the notion that one is in complete control of ones faculties, even now, could itself have been implanted by someone who only wants you to believe that you’re in control of your own mind. Remember the movie "Total Recall?" I would be equally suspicious of someone who professed to "cure" my brainwashed little mind as I would of some cultist trying to get me to "see the light." But no matter. You’ve seen too much already, and I have you exactly where I want you. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! (Editor’s note: It’s Friday evening and I’m feeling a bit mischievous)
Response:
Terrific post, Lawrence. I took the liberty to copy it and post it to alt.meditation.transcendental, another NG with some concerns similar to the ones found here.
Response:
The US Intelligence community, the US military and the US State and new Home defense departments have failed America and the World Community by neglecting to pay attention to the root causes of Terrorism. John Walker Lindh the "American Taliban" is the embarrassing proof of this failure
Question:
San Francisco Examiner November 23, 2001 CORRECTION In Thursday’s story on ACT UP, the fourth and fifth paragraphs should have read as follows: a bunch of doo-doo-heads are on their way to screwing the pooch one too many times. If they don’t turn back before it’s too late they will find out why other people don’t ACT like they do.
non-quoted text to defeat groups.google com "Your message consists entirely of quoted text. Please enter your reply."
Response:
San Francisco Examiner November 23, 2001 CORRECTION In Thursday’s story on ACT UP, the fourth and fifth paragraphs should have read as follows: a bunch of doo-doo-heads are on their way to screwing the pooch one too many times. If they don’t turn back before it’s too late they will find out why other people don’t ACT like they do.
heh. "I TOLD YOU SO"
Response:
San Francisco Examiner November 22, 2001 ACT UP told to back down —– By Tanya Pampalone Of The Examiner Staff A judge has ordered two controversial AIDS activists to stay away from Department of Public Health spokeswoman Eileen Shields, bringing the number of restraining orders city employees have against the two men to three. Assistant City Attorney Scott Burrell said Tuesday the latest order bars Michael Petrelis and David Pasquarelli, members of ACT UP San Francisco, from contacting or harassing Shields. The group does not believe that HIV causes AIDS. Last week, temporary restraining orders were issued to keep the two from contacting Mike Shriver, Mayor Willie Brown’s AIDS adviser and Dr. Jeffrey Klausner, the head of sexually transmitted disease and prevention at DPH. Petrelis and Pasquarelli sent out mass e-mails with the home phone numbers of public health officials, as well as home numbers for reporters and editors of the New York Times and the Bay Area Reporter, the news organizations that have looked into the actions of the AIDS activists. A government official said the listings resulted in a spate of harassing, obscene and threatening phone calls — and even death threats. Klausner received threatening phone calls at home and at work from both men and had to change his home phone number because of the calls. Earlier this month, Petrelis and Pasquarelli were hit by a separate restraining notice ordering them to keep away from a number of San Francisco Chronicle reporters and editors, who had received threatening phone calls from the pair. The renegade activists said they believe articles about the rising number of syphilis cases among gay men in San Francisco and the rise of unsafe sexual practices among gay men are inaccurate. The Bay Area Reporter, which reports on The City’s gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender community, wrote an editorial blasting Petrelis, Pasquarelli and ACT UP San Francisco last week. The editorial called the harassment unacceptable and said their tactics are "violence masquerading as activism." —– San Francisco Examiner November 23, 2001 CORRECTION In Thursday’s story on ACT UP, the fourth and fifth paragraphs should have read as follows: Petrelis and Pasquarelli sent out mass e-mails with the home phone numbers of public health officials, as well as home numbers for reporters and editors of the New York Times and the Bay Area Reporter, the news organizations that have looked into the actions of the AIDS activists. A government official said the listings resulted in a spate of harassing, obscene and threatening phone calls — and even death threats. Klausner received threatening phone calls at home and at work from both men and had to change his home phone number because of the calls. —– Want to respond? Send letters to: San Francisco Examiner 988 Market Street San Francisco, California 94102 Phone: (415) 359-2600 Fax: (415) 359-2766 ===== ACT UP San Francisco 1884 Market Street * San Francisco, California 94102 Phone: (415) 864-6686 * Fax: (415) 864-6687 * www.actupsf.com
Response:
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