Filed under: Activism
Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – -Glaciers in eight of Europe’s nine glacial regions are in retreat, and are at their lowest levels for 5,000 years. I remember one time in the late 1990s Al Gore did a photo op in Glacier National Park, where there used to be glaciers. His point was that the retreat was alarming, or something like that. I remember a Mormon coworker commenting about how alarming the lack of glaciers in Glacier National Park was. He didn’t sound at all convinced. Tian
Someof the photos used by the scammers are fromthe 1920s leading suckers like "Economic Democracy" to believe they are recent. It’s nothing new. Scammers have been using end-of-the-world scenerio scams to peddle snake oil religions for thousands of years. The global warming BS is just an extention of the new age "Gaia" BS, similar in virtually every way to "psychic surgery", "holistic medicine", and other speudo-science scams. The only difference is the money. These scammers have willing co-horts in a handful of conmen with actual science degrees who depend on tax dollars, and international orgs and dictators who want to use them to grab US tax dollars. William R. James
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Strong evidence exists that most of the global warming over the past 50 years has been caused by human activities, in particular emissions of heat-trapping greenhouse gases, such as carbon dioxide (CO2) from the burning of fossil fuels. False, and you know it. There is ZERO evidence to support your chicken little scam and you have been repeatedly challanged to come up with some and you have repeatedly failed to do anything but post the same discounted BS over and over as if it had some basis in reality. No point replying to William James whose breain is in another galaxy, but for bystanders reading this, we have posted peer-reviewed articles and journalistic summaries thereof (from tiny unknown little outfits, like, say, BBC World News) with new posts as there is a growing string of such studies. Search usenet for economicdemocracy and climate or global.
Nothing but BS as usual. Perhaps you should learn a little science before attempting to discuss it. The BBC is hardly a cerdible scientific source. General background: You would have a hard time knowing it listening to the mainstream media but here are some of the groups warning: 1) Statement warning about Global Warming by Thomas Karl, director of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s NATIONAL CLIMATIC DATA CENTER, and Kevin Trenberth, head of the CLIMATE ANALYSIS SECTION at NCAR: http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/p/tp-20031208-04.html
ROLFLMAO! Where does their money come from? Do you also trust Tobacco company "scientists" who say smoking isn’t addictive or hazardous? If not then you are quite the hypocrite, aren’t you? The scientists conclude that industrial emissions have been the dominant influence on climate change for the past 50 years, overwhelming natural forces.
No scientist would ever conclude such a thing. No scientist would come to a scientific comclusion regarding the cause of something for which there isn’t even any evidence in the first place! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -2) AMERICAN GEOPHYSICAL UNION warns about climate change: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/12/18/MNGNV3PH9… What CNN may not tell you, even Christy, one of the so called "skeptics" admits this in the above article: "[Even Christy] is convinced that human activities are the major cause of the global warming that has been measured," and that "It is scientifically inconceivable that after changing forests into cities, turning millions of acres into farmland, putting massive quantities of soot and dust into the atmosphere and sending quantities of greenhouse gases into the air, that the natural course of climate change hasn’t been increased in the past century.”" Yet he is quoted out of context as a "skeptic" in mainstream media (with Straw Men about ‘let’s not claim the world will end tomorrow" (which no one does) and the public still thinks there is a "debate" about whether climate change is real and furthermore, is mostly (see "the major cause" above and other similar quotes elsewhere) is mostly human caused.
You conveniently ignore (as usual) the reality. Millions of those acres are irrigated growing plants where little or none grew before. You want to talk about soot and dust? How about going back to the days before forest fires and the millions of acres of grassland fires were controlled? How about the days before irrigation in the southwest when sand and dust storms were the norm? No, that wouldn’t fit into the BS you are peddling, would it? There is a debate regarding the global warming scam. There are actual scentists and others demanding evidence and the charlitans like you ranting on and on as if it’s just accepted as fact so evidence isn’t required. 3) WORLD METEOROLOGICAL ORGANIZATION (WMO) "Anecdotal evidence that the world’s weather is getting wilder now has a solid scientific basis in fact following a dramatic global assessment from the World Meteorological Organization."
Right, "anecdotal evidence", aka "no evidence, just testimonials and BS claims. Should you ever come across some evidence, feel free to post it. Excuse us all if we don’t hold our breaths waiting. William R. James
Response:
Strong evidence exists that most of the global warming over the past 50 years has been caused by human activities, in particular emissions of heat-trapping greenhouse gases, such as carbon dioxide (CO2) from the burning of fossil fuels. False, and you know it. There is ZERO evidence to support your chicken little scam and you have been repeatedly challanged to come up with some and you have repeatedly failed to do anything but post the same discounted BS over and over as if it had some basis in reality. No point replying to William James whose breain is in another galaxy,
As if you you should talk, given your series of idiotic posts ("seas turning to acid")… but for bystanders reading this, we have posted peer-reviewed articles
Most of your "peer-reviewed articles" are op-ed pieces…
Response:
Strong evidence exists that most of the global warming over the past 50 years has been caused by human activities, in particular emissions of heat-trapping greenhouse gases, such as carbon dioxide (CO2) from the burning of fossil fuels. False, and you know it. There is ZERO evidence to support your chicken little scam and you have been repeatedly challanged to come up with some and you have repeatedly failed to do anything but post the same discounted BS over and over as if it had some basis in reality.
No point replying to William James whose breain is in another galaxy, but for bystanders reading this, we have posted peer-reviewed articles and journalistic summaries thereof (from tiny unknown little outfits, like, say, BBC World News) with new posts as there is a growing string of such studies. Search usenet for economicdemocracy and climate or global. General background: You would have a hard time knowing it listening to the mainstream media but here are some of the groups warning: 1) Statement warning about Global Warming by Thomas Karl, director of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s NATIONAL CLIMATIC DATA CENTER, and Kevin Trenberth, head of the CLIMATE ANALYSIS SECTION at NCAR: http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/p/tp-20031208-04.html The scientists conclude that industrial emissions have been the dominant influence on climate change for the past 50 years, overwhelming natural forces. 2) AMERICAN GEOPHYSICAL UNION warns about climate change: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/12/18/MNGNV3PH9… What CNN may not tell you, even Christy, one of the so called "skeptics" admits this in the above article: "[Even Christy] is convinced that human activities are the major cause of the global warming that has been measured," and that "It is scientifically inconceivable that after changing forests into cities, turning millions of acres into farmland, putting massive quantities of soot and dust into the atmosphere and sending quantities of greenhouse gases into the air, that the natural course of climate change hasn’t been increased in the past century.”" Yet he is quoted out of context as a "skeptic" in mainstream media (with Straw Men about ‘let’s not claim the world will end tomorrow" (which no one does) and the public still thinks there is a "debate" about whether climate change is real and furthermore, is mostly (see "the major cause" above and other similar quotes elsewhere) is mostly human caused. 3) WORLD METEOROLOGICAL ORGANIZATION (WMO) "Anecdotal evidence that the world’s weather is getting wilder now has a solid scientific basis in fact following a dramatic global assessment from the World Meteorological Organization." http://www.cnn.com/2003/WEATHER/07/03/wmo.extremes/ 4) (this should be item #1, they are the largest body of experts in the world and one of largest the largest if not the largest open scientific peer review process in the world) The IPCC, the Inter-governmental Panel on Climate Change, http://www.ipcc.ch/ the largest group of climate experts in the world, conducting one of the largest (if not the largest) open, scientific peer-review in history. They warn with increasing gravity about climate change. (http://www.ipcc.ch/press/pr.htm) Lots of BBC stories, see "cuts of 50-70% are needed" in BBC citations below. 5) THE AMERICAN ACADEMY OF SCIENCE, the most prestigious (and publisher of Science Magazine, one of the two most prestigious science journals (the other being the journal Nature): "Climate experts urge immediate action to offset impact of global warming" http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2004/0616climateIntro.shtml "Governments and consumers in the United States and worldwide should take immediate steps to reduce the threat of global warming and to prepare for a future in which coastal flooding, reduced crop yields and elevated rates of climate-related illness are all but certain, top U.S. scientists said Tuesday. "At a meeting organized by AAAS [American Association for the Advancement of Science] and its journal, Science, the climate researchers argued that while some policy experts and sectors of the public dispute the risk, there is in fact no cause for doubt: The world is significantly warmer today than it was a century ago — and it’s getting warmer.." Also (http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2004/0616climate.shtml) They note that: "Scientists generally agree that temperatures are rising as a result of human activities such as fossil-fuel burning, which releases carbon dioxide and other heat-trapping greenhouse gases. This warming has caused glacial melting and subsequent increases in sea levels worldwide.." DON’T MOURN, ACT! WEBSITES FOR ACTION: http://www.greenhousenet.org/ http://www.gristmagazine.com/dogood/climate.asp http://www.solarcatalyst.com/ Overview and local actions you can take: http://www.PostCarbon.org = = = = STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT’S GOING ON? = = = = Daily online radio show, news reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org = = = = Sorry, we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace) And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general) ** ANTI-SPAM EMAIL NOTE: For email "info" and "map" don’t work. Email instead ** to m-a-i-l-m-a-i-l (without the dashes) at economicdemocracy.org
Response:
Strong evidence exists that most of the global warming over the past 50 years has been caused by human activities, in particular emissions of heat-trapping greenhouse gases, such as carbon dioxide (CO2) from the burning of fossil fuels.
False, and you know it. There is ZERO evidence to support your chicken little scam and you have been repeatedly challanged to come up with some and you have repeatedly failed to do anything but post the same discounted BS over and over as if it had some basis in reality. Once again, first you have to show some evidence of global warming, and THEN some evidence that it’s related to human activity. You have done neither and obviously will never do either. William R. James
Response:
-Glaciers in eight of Europe’s nine glacial regions are in retreat, and are at their lowest levels for 5,000 years.
I remember one time in the late 1990s Al Gore did a photo op in Glacier National Park, where there used to be glaciers. His point was that the retreat was alarming, or something like that. I remember a Mormon coworker commenting about how alarming the lack of glaciers in Glacier National Park was. He didn’t sound at all convinced. Tian — http://tian.greens.org I spent last evening in the San Mateo County Green Party Booth at the San Mateo County Fair. I was surprised at how much easier to talk to the Republicans were than the Democrats up there. I got a Steve Poizner pin.
Response:
Rocks are melting?
Response:
Europe needs adaptation strategies to limit climate change impacts <bMore frequent and more economically costly storms, floods, droughts and other extreme weather. Wetter conditions in northern Europe but drier weather in the south that could threaten agriculture in some areas. More frequent and more intense heatwaves, posing a lethal threat to the elderly and frail. Melting glaciers, with three-quarters of those in the Swiss Alps likely to disappear by 2050. Rising sea levels for centuries to come.</b These are among the impacts of global climate change that are already being seen in Europe or are projected to happen over the coming decades as global temperatures rise, according to a new report from the European Environment Agency (EEA). Strong evidence exists that most of the global warming over the past 50 years has been caused by human activities, in particular emissions of heat-trapping greenhouse gases, such as carbon dioxide (CO2) from the burning of fossil fuels. The concentration of CO2, the main greenhouse gas, in the lower atmosphere is now at its highest for at least 420,000 years – possibly even 20 million years – and stands 34% above its level before the Industrial Revolution. The rise has been accelerating since 1950. The summer floods of 2002 and last year’s summer heatwave are recent examples of how destructive extreme weather can be. The serious flooding in 11 countries in August 2002 killed about 80 people, affected more than 600,000 and caused economic losses of at least 15 billion US$. In the summer 2003 heatwave western and southern Europe recorded more than 20,000 excess deaths, particularly among elderly people. Crop harvests in many southern countries were down by as much as 30%. Melting reduced the mass of the Alpine glaciers by one-tenth in 2003 alone. "This report pulls together a wealth of evidence that climate change is already happening and having widespread impacts, many of them with substantial economic costs, on people and ecosystems across Europe," said Prof. Jacqueline McGlade, EEA Executive Director. She added: "Europe has to continue to lead worldwide efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, but this report also underlines that strategies are needed, at European, regional, national and local level, to adapt to climate change. This is a phenomenon that will considerably affect our societies and environments for decades and centuries to come." The extent and rate of the climate changes under way most likely exceed all natural variation in climate over the last thousand years and possibly longer. The 1990s were the warmest decade on record and the three hottest years recorded – 1998, 2002 and 2003 – have occurred in the last six years. The global warming rate is now almost 0.2
Question:
Bullshit from terrorist symps. These guys are all volunteers. They knew what they were getting into when they joined. You don’t join the Military to pick daises!
What part of As members of military families we sleep at night because we believe that our loved ones will only be sent to war AS A LAST RESORT, ONLY after ALL other avenues have been exhausted, to defend this country, its people, and its allies. We believe in this sacred promise made to us by our leadership, implicit in the Constitution of the United States of America. We were sold a pack of lies. And I’m sorry to say the majority of people in this country alone ate it up like candy.
Was too complicated for this Jaberwokie feller? As a second, separately point — next time Jaberwokie should try calling the grieving mothers "terorrist symps" right to their face.. what mother-hating unAmerican pathetic moral cowardice he displays- ED – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Military Families Speak Out is an organization of people who are opposed to war in Iraq and who have relatives or loved ones in the military. We were formed in November of 2002 and have contacts with military families throughout the United States, and in other countries around the world. As people with family members and loved ones in the military, we have both a special need and a unique role to play in speaking out against war in Iraq. It is our loved ones who are, or have been, or will be on the battlefront. It is our loved ones who are risking injury and death. It is our loved ones who are returning scarred from their experiences. It is our loved ones who will have to live with the injuries and deaths among innocent Iraqi civilians. If you have family members or loved ones in the military and you are opposed to this war, join us. Send us an e-mail at mfso [at-sign] mfso.org http://www.mfso.org/main_f.html Senate Admits War is Based on Lies: An Angry Mom Responds Hello MFSO, I am so angry right now I thought I’d unload on you, since I know someone there has to be feeling the same thing. When that Senate "intelligence" report came out yesterday, 7/9/04, saying that the war in Iraq was based on a big mistake and that if congressmen knew then what they know now, they would never have voted for use of force, it made me cry. How can we sit by and let this happen without a lot of OUTRAGE being voiced? Families of soldiers who have died and been injured must SHOUT their OUTRAGE NOW. Most of the world knew that there was not sufficient foundation for the US invasion of Iraq, yet all but a very few of our Congressman administration. Why did we conduct an investigation NOW, AFTER the damage is done, AFTER our kids have been killed and lost legs and arms and eyesight, and killed so many other people in the process? Shouldn’t investigations have been conducted before the first bomb was dropped? Shouldn’t our lawmakers have been asking probing questions, been willing to stand against the tide of stupitity and ignorance in Washington, been reading the supposed evidence and asking for a lot more proof BEFORE giving George Bush a free hand to send our kids to war? How can families of dead soldiers get up each day and live with the unavoildable reality that they have lost their loved ones FOREVER because the people we trust to examine and understand the FACTS before sending our children into combat totally failed to recognize obvious, transparent lies and fabrications? And how can the Commander in Chief smirk and shrug and say he "thinks our intelligence is good intelligence" and never take one bit of responsibility (or be held responsible by those of us he has hurt so badly and permanently) for the damage he has personally done to the lives of the members of the military and their families, as well as our alliances worldwide, and to the people of Iraq whose lives have been ravaged by death and destruction? As members of military families we sleep at night because we believe that our loved ones will only be sent to war AS A LAST RESORT, ONLY after ALL other avenues have been exhausted, to defend this country, its people, and its allies. We believe in this sacred promise made to us by our leadership, implicit in the Constitution of the United States of America. We were sold a pack of lies. And I’m sorry to say the majority of people in this country alone ate it up like candy. I am sad today as I ponder the tragedies of our time. I hold my breath daily waiting to see if my son will be deployed again, to where, and for how long. He and I both pray that he somehow manages to get out of the army on the date that his 4 years are up, against all odds now that stop-loss and call back policies are in place. Thanks for your ear, Amy Bright AVAILABLE FOR INTERVIEW July 12, 2004 CONTACT: Zoe Mitchell (202) 232-8997 Nancy Lessin (617) 320-5301 Senate Report Confirms: Iraq War Based on Lies Military Families Demand an Immediate End to the War and Ask: How Can You Ask a Soldier to be the Last to Die for a Lie? WASHINGTON, DC- While the Senate continues to debate the issue of blame for the false information that was used to justify the war in Iraq, the fact remains that the two primary justifications — Iraqi weapons of mass destruction and a link between Al Qaida and Iraq — have been shown by the Senate report to be without merit. To date, 887 U.S. troops; 60 troops from the UK; 60 from other "coalition" forces and over ten thousand Iraqi men, women and children have been killed as a result of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in March, 2003. Military Families Speak Out is an organization of over 1,500 military families with loved ones who have been killed in Iraq, who are serving in Iraq, who have been wounded physically and/or psychologically by the war in Iraq, and who may deploy or redeploy to Iraq. We demand an immediate and personal apology by the Bush Administration to all those whose lives have been damaged by this war, beginning with those families in the U.S., in Iraq and around the world who have lost loved ones as a result of this war based on lies. Furthermore, funds must be made available to assist families whose loved ones have been killed or wounded physically or psychologically by this war based on lies. Finally, Military Families Speak Out demands an immediate end to the war and the return of U.S. troops to their home duty stations. Through their grief, military families who have suffered unbearable loss say: not one more family should suffer what we have suffered, for a war that should never have happened, for a war based on lies. Military Families Speak Out asks the United States Senate: How can you ask a soldier to be the last to die for a lie? Available for Interview: Twelve Military Families who have lost loved ones in Iraq are available for interview. Please call Katya Kruglak at 202-641-0277 to arrange an interview. NEW: IRAQ VETERANS AGAINST THE WAR FOUNDED! rans Against the War (IVAW) is a group of veterans from Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom. We are committed to saving lives and ending the violence in Iraq by an immediate withdrawal of all occupying forces. Click to link to IVAW’s website. http://www.ivaw.net/ "How do you ask a soldier to be the last person TO DIE FOR A LIE?" www.mfso.org/main_f.html = = = = STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT’S GOING ON? = = = = Daily online radio show, news reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org = = = Sorry, we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace) And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general) ** ANTI-SPAM EMAIL NOTE: For email "info" and "map" don’t work. Email to ** m-a-i-l-m-a-i-l (without the dashes) at economicdemocracy.org instead
Response:
Bullshit from terrorist symps. These guys are all volunteers. They knew what they were getting into when they joined. You don’t join the Military to pick daises! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Military Families Speak Out is an organization of people who are opposed to war in Iraq and who have relatives or loved ones in the military. We were formed in November of 2002 and have contacts with military families throughout the United States, and in other countries around the world. As people with family members and loved ones in the military, we have both a special need and a unique role to play in speaking out against war in Iraq. It is our loved ones who are, or have been, or will be on the battlefront. It is our loved ones who are risking injury and death. It is our loved ones who are returning scarred from their experiences. It is our loved ones who will have to live with the injuries and deaths among innocent Iraqi civilians. If you have family members or loved ones in the military and you are opposed to this war, join us. Send us an e-mail at mfso [at-sign] mfso.org http://www.mfso.org/main_f.html Senate Admits War is Based on Lies: An Angry Mom Responds Hello MFSO, I am so angry right now I thought I’d unload on you, since I know someone there has to be feeling the same thing. When that Senate "intelligence" report came out yesterday, 7/9/04, saying that the war in Iraq was based on a big mistake and that if congressmen knew then what they know now, they would never have voted for use of force, it made me cry. How can we sit by and let this happen without a lot of OUTRAGE being voiced? Families of soldiers who have died and been injured must SHOUT their OUTRAGE NOW. Most of the world knew that there was not sufficient foundation for the US invasion of Iraq, yet all but a very few of our Congressman administration. Why did we conduct an investigation NOW, AFTER the damage is done, AFTER our kids have been killed and lost legs and arms and eyesight, and killed so many other people in the process? Shouldn’t investigations have been conducted before the first bomb was dropped? Shouldn’t our lawmakers have been asking probing questions, been willing to stand against the tide of stupitity and ignorance in Washington, been reading the supposed evidence and asking for a lot more proof BEFORE giving George Bush a free hand to send our kids to war? How can families of dead soldiers get up each day and live with the unavoildable reality that they have lost their loved ones FOREVER because the people we trust to examine and understand the FACTS before sending our children into combat totally failed to recognize obvious, transparent lies and fabrications? And how can the Commander in Chief smirk and shrug and say he "thinks our intelligence is good intelligence" and never take one bit of responsibility (or be held responsible by those of us he has hurt so badly and permanently) for the damage he has personally done to the lives of the members of the military and their families, as well as our alliances worldwide, and to the people of Iraq whose lives have been ravaged by death and destruction? As members of military families we sleep at night because we believe that our loved ones will only be sent to war AS A LAST RESORT, ONLY after ALL other avenues have been exhausted, to defend this country, its people, and its allies. We believe in this sacred promise made to us by our leadership, implicit in the Constitution of the United States of America. We were sold a pack of lies. And I’m sorry to say the majority of people in this country alone ate it up like candy. I am sad today as I ponder the tragedies of our time. I hold my breath daily waiting to see if my son will be deployed again, to where, and for how long. He and I both pray that he somehow manages to get out of the army on the date that his 4 years are up, against all odds now that stop-loss and call back policies are in place. Thanks for your ear, Amy Bright AVAILABLE FOR INTERVIEW July 12, 2004 CONTACT: Zoe Mitchell (202) 232-8997 Nancy Lessin (617) 320-5301 Senate Report Confirms: Iraq War Based on Lies Military Families Demand an Immediate End to the War and Ask: How Can You Ask a Soldier to be the Last to Die for a Lie? WASHINGTON, DC- While the Senate continues to debate the issue of blame for the false information that was used to justify the war in Iraq, the fact remains that the two primary justifications — Iraqi weapons of mass destruction and a link between Al Qaida and Iraq — have been shown by the Senate report to be without merit. To date, 887 U.S. troops; 60 troops from the UK; 60 from other "coalition" forces and over ten thousand Iraqi men, women and children have been killed as a result of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in March, 2003. Military Families Speak Out is an organization of over 1,500 military families with loved ones who have been killed in Iraq, who are serving in Iraq, who have been wounded physically and/or psychologically by the war in Iraq, and who may deploy or redeploy to Iraq. We demand an immediate and personal apology by the Bush Administration to all those whose lives have been damaged by this war, beginning with those families in the U.S., in Iraq and around the world who have lost loved ones as a result of this war based on lies. Furthermore, funds must be made available to assist families whose loved ones have been killed or wounded physically or psychologically by this war based on lies. Finally, Military Families Speak Out demands an immediate end to the war and the return of U.S. troops to their home duty stations. Through their grief, military families who have suffered unbearable loss say: not one more family should suffer what we have suffered, for a war that should never have happened, for a war based on lies. Military Families Speak Out asks the United States Senate: How can you ask a soldier to be the last to die for a lie? Available for Interview: Twelve Military Families who have lost loved ones in Iraq are available for interview. Please call Katya Kruglak at 202-641-0277 to arrange an interview. NEW: IRAQ VETERANS AGAINST THE WAR FOUNDED! rans Against the War (IVAW) is a group of veterans from Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom. We are committed to saving lives and ending the violence in Iraq by an immediate withdrawal of all occupying forces. Click to link to IVAW’s website. http://www.ivaw.net/ "How do you ask a soldier to be the last person TO DIE FOR A LIE?" www.mfso.org/main_f.html = = = = STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT’S GOING ON? = = = = Daily online radio show, news reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org = = = Sorry, we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace) And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general) ** ANTI-SPAM EMAIL NOTE: For email "info" and "map" don’t work. Email to ** m-a-i-l-m-a-i-l (without the dashes) at economicdemocracy.org instead
Response:
Military Families Speak Out is an organization of people who are opposed to war in Iraq and who have relatives or loved ones in the military. We were formed in November of 2002 and have contacts with military families throughout the United States, and in other countries around the world. As people with family members and loved ones in the military, we have both a special need and a unique role to play in speaking out against war in Iraq. It is our loved ones who are, or have been, or will be on the battlefront. It is our loved ones who are risking injury and death. It is our loved ones who are returning scarred from their experiences. It is our loved ones who will have to live with the injuries and deaths among innocent Iraqi civilians. If you have family members or loved ones in the military and you are opposed to this war, join us. Send us an e-mail at mfso [at-sign] mfso.org http://www.mfso.org/main_f.html Senate Admits War is Based on Lies: An Angry Mom Responds Hello MFSO, I am so angry right now I thought I’d unload on you, since I know someone there has to be feeling the same thing. When that Senate "intelligence" report came out yesterday, 7/9/04, saying that the war in Iraq was based on a big mistake and that if congressmen knew then what they know now, they would never have voted for use of force, it made me cry. How can we sit by and let this happen without a lot of OUTRAGE being voiced? Families of soldiers who have died and been injured must SHOUT their OUTRAGE NOW. Most of the world knew that there was not sufficient foundation for the US invasion of Iraq, yet all but a very few of our Congressman administration. Why did we conduct an investigation NOW, AFTER the damage is done, AFTER our kids have been killed and lost legs and arms and eyesight, and killed so many other people in the process? Shouldn’t investigations have been conducted before the first bomb was dropped? Shouldn’t our lawmakers have been asking probing questions, been willing to stand against the tide of stupitity and ignorance in Washington, been reading the supposed evidence and asking for a lot more proof BEFORE giving George Bush a free hand to send our kids to war? How can families of dead soldiers get up each day and live with the unavoildable reality that they have lost their loved ones FOREVER because the people we trust to examine and understand the FACTS before sending our children into combat totally failed to recognize obvious, transparent lies and fabrications? And how can the Commander in Chief smirk and shrug and say he "thinks our intelligence is good intelligence" and never take one bit of responsibility (or be held responsible by those of us he has hurt so badly and permanently) for the damage he has personally done to the lives of the members of the military and their families, as well as our alliances worldwide, and to the people of Iraq whose lives have been ravaged by death and destruction? As members of military families we sleep at night because we believe that our loved ones will only be sent to war AS A LAST RESORT, ONLY after ALL other avenues have been exhausted, to defend this country, its people, and its allies. We believe in this sacred promise made to us by our leadership, implicit in the Constitution of the United States of America. We were sold a pack of lies. And I’m sorry to say the majority of people in this country alone ate it up like candy. I am sad today as I ponder the tragedies of our time. I hold my breath daily waiting to see if my son will be deployed again, to where, and for how long. He and I both pray that he somehow manages to get out of the army on the date that his 4 years are up, against all odds now that stop-loss and call back policies are in place. Thanks for your ear, Amy Bright AVAILABLE FOR INTERVIEW July 12, 2004 CONTACT: Zoe Mitchell (202) 232-8997 Nancy Lessin (617) 320-5301 Senate Report Confirms: Iraq War Based on Lies Military Families Demand an Immediate End to the War and Ask: How Can You Ask a Soldier to be the Last to Die for a Lie? WASHINGTON, DC- While the Senate continues to debate the issue of blame for the false information that was used to justify the war in Iraq, the fact remains that the two primary justifications — Iraqi weapons of mass destruction and a link between Al Qaida and Iraq — have been shown by the Senate report to be without merit. To date, 887 U.S. troops; 60 troops from the UK; 60 from other "coalition" forces and over ten thousand Iraqi men, women and children have been killed as a result of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in March, 2003. Military Families Speak Out is an organization of over 1,500 military families with loved ones who have been killed in Iraq, who are serving in Iraq, who have been wounded physically and/or psychologically by the war in Iraq, and who may deploy or redeploy to Iraq. We demand an immediate and personal apology by the Bush Administration to all those whose lives have been damaged by this war, beginning with those families in the U.S., in Iraq and around the world who have lost loved ones as a result of this war based on lies. Furthermore, funds must be made available to assist families whose loved ones have been killed or wounded physically or psychologically by this war based on lies. Finally, Military Families Speak Out demands an immediate end to the war and the return of U.S. troops to their home duty stations. Through their grief, military families who have suffered unbearable loss say: not one more family should suffer what we have suffered, for a war that should never have happened, for a war based on lies. Military Families Speak Out asks the United States Senate: How can you ask a soldier to be the last to die for a lie? Available for Interview: Twelve Military Families who have lost loved ones in Iraq are available for interview. Please call Katya Kruglak at 202-641-0277 to arrange an interview. NEW: IRAQ VETERANS AGAINST THE WAR FOUNDED! rans Against the War (IVAW) is a group of veterans from Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom. We are committed to saving lives and ending the violence in Iraq by an immediate withdrawal of all occupying forces. Click to link to IVAW’s website. http://www.ivaw.net/ "How do you ask a soldier to be the last person TO DIE FOR A LIE?" www.mfso.org/main_f.html = = = = STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT’S GOING ON? = = = = Daily online radio show, news reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org = = = Sorry, we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace) And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general) ** ANTI-SPAM EMAIL NOTE: For email "info" and "map" don’t work. Email to ** m-a-i-l-m-a-i-l (without the dashes) at economicdemocracy.org instead
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Question:
"Last year, the temperature reached 38.5C in Kent on August 10 – the hottest since records began in 1659 [sic]"
How do you spell "O-h S-h-i-t!"
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"Last year, the temperature reached 38.5C in Kent on August 10 – the hottest since records began in 1659 [sic]" How do you spell "O-h S-h-i-t!"
Here in the US we spell it d-u-b-y-a if you’re in a safe state, vote your conscience, if you’re not, vote for the lesser evil, may be the thing to do, if, say, you have strange ideas like wanting your kids to grow up with a livable planet earth…(and if you do, make sure NOT to stop after the election; Kerry’s feet would need to be held to the fire..he’s not panacea that’s for sure. At least he’ll be creating less fires than Bin Laden’s wet dream come true, George Bush and the massive increase in terorism danger in this world, as well as increase in global warming danger, Bush seems hell bent (pun intended?) to create) = = = = STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT’S GOING ON? = = = = Daily online radio show, news reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org = = = = Sorry, we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace) And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general) ** ANTI-SPAM EMAIL NOTE: For email "info" and "map" don’t work. Email to ** m-a-i-l-m-a-i-l (without the dashes) at economicdemocracy.org instead
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"Last year, the temperature reached 38.5C in Kent on August 10 – the hottest since records began in 1659 [sic]" "Six of the seven warmest years while records have been kept have occurred since 1990." http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39935000/jpg/_39935520_flood203… [Photo: Car deeply submerged in water] Story: Weird weather ’set to continue’ The erratic weather that has been battering the UK this summer [2004] is set to continue into this week, forecasters have warned. In the past 24 hours sunshine has turned to humid thundery showers with flash flooding in places. The temperature, however, has remained stifling in some areas, with London not dropping below 22C overnight – the eighth hottest on record. Norfolk also suffered at 21C, and the rest of the UK never dropped below 17C. "It was a very warm night with temperatures approximately 10 degrees above average," a PA Weather Centre spokeswoman said. The grim conditions are in evidence as a system, including the remains of Hurricane Alex, which came across the Atlantic, hit the UK and continue to hover over the west. BBC weather forecaster Michael Fish said Scotland and England’s eastern counties could expect more heavy rainfalls on Monday night and into Tuesday. "To bring us the summer we are longing for, the jet stream needs to pass to the north of the UK," said Mr Fish. Glasgow has suffered the worst of the flooding after thundery showers brought 35mm of rainfall between 7pm and 7am. Scottish Power reported almost 1,000 homes had lost electricity in the storms, mainly in rural areas of the country. Clwyd in north Wales was also affected, with 28mm of rain, while Drumalbin in southern Scotland saw 29mm. A Met Office spokesman said "prolonged and torrential rainfall" had also been reported in eastern England. Weather experts say the band of rain, which swept in from the west, will continue to give Scotland and the north-east of England "a fair old battering". Global warming But the rain is set to make everywhere feel cooler and fresher. Flash flooding brought traffic to a standstill in the Midlands and other areas last week and closed down parts of the London Underground. And the Environment Agency has warned that the tempestuous weather could get worse with global warming. Last year, the temperature reached 38.5C in Kent on August 10 – the hottest since records began in 1659. Six of the seven warmest years while records have been kept have occurred since 1990. Without cutting emissions, the freakish nature of Britain’s weather could get worse, the Agency warned. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/uk_news/3549924.stm DON’T MOURN, ACT! WEBSITES FOR ACTION: http://www.greenhousenet.org/ http://www.gristmagazine.com/dogood/climate.asp http://www.solarcatalyst.com/ Overview and local actions you can take: http://www.PostCarbon.org = = = = STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT’S GOING ON? = = = = Daily online radio show, news reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org = = = = Sorry, we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace) And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general) ** ANTI-SPAM EMAIL NOTE: For email "info" and "map" don’t work. Email instead ** to m-a-i-l-m-a-i-l (without the dashes) at economicdemocracy.org
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Question:
America’s Last War By Ted Rall, Published on Common Dreams Things are a bit trickier for our Texas-grown dictator, George W. Bush, burdened as he is by our annoying insistence on forcing him to run for the office he stole fair and square.
Thanks for letting us know that your credibility is about zip-point-shit, Ted.
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Among the smoke-and-mirror and fear-mongering innuendo, these are some facts about Iran’s nuclear program that aren’t being mentioned: 1- The Bushehr reactor-which was started under the Shah with US support-is not a weapons proliferation threat since it is a lightwater reactor which is under IAEA safeguard. Even the IAEA itself admits that much. Proof: UN clears Iran nuclear facility The head of the UN’s International Atomic Energy Agency has said Russia’s nuclear co-operation with Iran is no longer a matter of concern. (SOURCE: BBC Online Tuesday, 29 June, 2004) 2- Note how the articles confuse a nuclear "weapons" program with a plain "nuclear program". In fact according to Article 4 of the Non-Proliferation Treaty, Iran has an "INALIENABLE RIGHT" to possess nuclear technology, as does any othe country. Several other nations use the same technology too, such as Brazil and Holland and Japan. So a nuclear program is not the same as a nuclear weapons program. 3- A common refrain is that Iran’s nuclear program can’t possibly be for anything except weapons because Iran has so much oil and natural gas. In fact Iran needs nuclear energy despite possessing extensive oil and gas because of rising domestic consumption and the reliance on the sale oil and gas for earning hard currency. The Stanford Research Institute advised the Shah’s government that Iran could not rely on oil and gas for energy way back in the mid 1970’s. Other nations which have extensive oil and gas resources also have nuclear energy – such as Russia and the USA. Iran has also been experimenting with geothermal energy and wind-turbines, as well as building its largest hydroengery dam. 4- There is in fact no evidence of an actual nuclear WEAPONS program in Iran, as admitted by the IAEA itself – there is only the INFERENCE that Iran COULD ONE DAY POSSIBLY use the legitimate technology to build a weapon of POSSIBLY desires to do so. Needless to say, ANY TECHNOLOGY "could" be used to make nukes, and so could any country. And the reason why Iran would want to build nukes is to DEFEND ITSELF. Proof: "IAEA: No evidence of Iran nukes VIENNA, Austria (AP) — The U.N. nuclear watchdog agency has found ‘no evidence’ Iran is trying to make nuclear weapons… SOURCE: AP Monday, November 10, 2003 " ‘The United States has no concrete evidence of a nuclear-weapons program,’ Albright told me. ‘It’s just an inference. There’s no smoking gun.’ " SOURCE: New Yorker by SEYMOUR M. HERSH Issue of 2004-06-28 5- Iran can’t be compared to Iraq: The bombing of Iraq’s Osirak reactor did not signficantly affect Iraq’s nuclear program, since the centrifuge sites were not bombed. If anything, it encouraged them to speed up the process. But in any case, Iran has signed the Additional Protocol which permits IAEA inspections anywhere-anytime, and Iraq had not. Iraq also used chemical weapons and invaded its neighbors- with the blessing and support of the USA, by the way. 6- In fact, according to the NonProliferation Treaty, not only is Iran entitled to have nuclear technology, but other countries are required to share their nuclear technology. That was the quid-pro-quo that the nuclear-haves and have-nots agreed upon when they signed the NPT. However, the nuclear-haves are not living up to their side of the Non-Proliferation Treaty bargain. 7- Don’t mix up Iran and North Korea either: Currently, Iran has signed the Nonproliferation Treaty and its nuclear installations are all under IAEA safeguards – unlike North Korea. 8- If Iran is attacked, Iran will withdraw from the Non-Proliferation Treaty (as it is legally do pursuant to Article X) and will start working on a nuclear weapons program in earnest. Centrifuge sites will pop up like mushrooms all over the country – too many to be bombed – and the IAEA inspectors will not be around to check them. Within 6 mos. the first nuclear test will occur, and within a year Iran’s missiles will be armed with nuclear warheads. 9- The people of Iran will rally to support their government if Iran is attacked, as their nationalism is stirred by such an act. Iran’s decision to develop nuclear deterrence will occur with the full support of the people of the government too, so changing governments will not change the decision to build nukes. Iranians know that their country has a right to nuclear technology, they are proud of their nuclear accomplishments, and have a long history of resenting foreign superpowers trying to deprive them of their rights. 10- Attacking Iran’s nuclear installations will prove once and for all to the people of Iran the necessity of obtaining nuclear weapons as a deterrence. There are already many Iranians who believe that Iran should withdraw from the NonProliferation Treaty since the US has failed to abide by ITS OWN obligations under the same treaty (to share nuclear technology, and to get rid of its own nuclear weapons) Furthermore, Iran is surrounded by nuclear-armed or nuclear-capable states that threaten Iran’s security. So yes, by all means, go ahead and bomb or try to invade Iran and see what happens. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – America’s Last War By Ted Rall, Published on Common Dreams Things are a bit trickier for our Texas-grown dictator, George W. Bush, burdened as he is by our annoying insistence on forcing him to run for the office he stole fair and square. Now that the invasion of Iraq has been universally acknowledged as an unjustifiable, counterproductive distraction from a war on terror that has yet to begin, Bush needs a still bigger war to distract us even more. Then, he figures, we’ll forget about Iraq the way Iraq made us forget about Afghanistan. North Korea. Next up: Iran. It’s time to get even for the hostages [which was Iranian students "get even" for the murderous Shah of Iran installed by Washington, we might remember...-ED] The Bush Administration began test-marketing a war against Iran by naming it as a charter member of the Axis of EvilTM. For the moment, however, electioneering to an alert-jittery electorate has forced the Bushies to place their neofascist tendencies in a lockbox. Bush and Cheney are deploying hoary Republican rhetorical ploys; referring to John Kerry as a flipflopping limousine liberal may harken to such classic GOP candidacies as Dole ‘96 and Reagan ‘80, but the war criminals of Guant
Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually no, I’m someone who’s spent 20 years on cleaning up hazardous waste sites, and I don’t have the time or inclination to try to educate someone like yourself who is the equivalent of a creationist on this issue. I would really, sincerily be interested to have a look at the actual figures of antidepressor found in tap water in GB Would you have a link, by any chance ? http://cerhr.niehs.nih.gov/news/fluoxetine/fluoxetine_final.pdf
Nice of you to actually supply a relevant link for a change. How come you couldn’t do that when I asked you, asshole?
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Unfortunately, "clueless, emotional liberal(s) who can’t be bothered with facts" are still allowed to VOTE and set public policy ….. kinda like letting 5-year-olds run things. But you’re working on that, right? Jr. FAscists.
From the mouth of the asshole who couldn’t provide a link when asked…
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For the record I don’t think Prozac levels are a concern.
Indeed… If I’m not mistaken, the cited concentrations amount to 1/20000th of the prozac minimal therapeutic dose (in one liter) That levels of norfluoxetine are unknown is a bit disturbing. However, a quick estimation seems to show that we reject something like 10,000 tons of norfluoxetine per day. It should dilute nicely in the ocean… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I do think however antibiotic levels in our rivers and environment can be. We use huge amounts of very powerful antibiotics in raising cattle, pigs and chickens. These antibiotics are often passed into the environment without being metabolized. These may well lead to the creation of "super bugs" immune to many of our antibiotics. Similarly Hormones, and hormone like pollutants can pose real risks. http://www.nyjournalnews.com/newsroom/042303/a0123drugs.html down the road though we may find that like DDT, PCBs and other chemicals if they are persistent, they may be concentrated in shell fish, or up the food chain to reach levels that may see effects. Especially when one considers there are many different SRIs out there and it could be a mix of several being concentrated.
Thanks much for the pointer
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However, a quick estimation seems to show that we reject something like 10,000 tons of norfluoxetine per day. It should dilute nicely in the ocean…
Oups… 10 tons
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, who’s to say that the coctail of drugs we drink don’t accumulate into something we pass onto our children who will pass their accumulation to their children, resulting eventually in something worse than Thalidomide, only this time there’s nothing anyone can do about it!? Show us the research on specific dangers before you whip people up into hysteria… help yourself: http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/ Once again, where are the specifics? Not on this page… I’ve got more important things to than try to convince people who are adamantly opposed to learning anything about the subject and intent on speaking from ignorance. In other words, you’re another clueles, emotional liberal who can’ t be bothered with facts. Thanks for playing, and be sure to pick up your consolation prize at the door… :O| Actually no, I’m someone who’s spent 20 years on cleaning up hazardous waste sites, and I don’t have the time or inclination to try to educate someone like yourself who is the equivalent of a creationist on this issue.
How am I a "creationist" by asking you to provide specific cites instead of vague accusations? Or is that the only way you can conduct a debate on the subject? I’ve met your type repeatedly.
And I assume you know what my "type" is already, right? Please tell me.
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spending huge sums of money on stupid experiments eg, whether or not a Gorilla can think.
Why do you think these experiments are stupid ? To me they are one of most important chance to better understand human behavior. With perhaps *huge* consequences on ourselves. BTW, could you put a figure on the words "huge sums of money" ? Take care
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, who’s to say that the coctail of drugs we drink don’t accumulate into something we pass onto our children who will pass their accumulation to their children, resulting eventually in something worse than Thalidomide, only this time there’s nothing anyone can do about it!? Show us the research on specific dangers before you whip people up into hysteria… help yourself: http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/ Once again, where are the specifics? Not on this page… I’ve got more important things to than try to convince people who are adamantly opposed to learning anything about the subject and intent on speaking from ignorance.
In other words, you’re another clueles, emotional liberal who can’ t be bothered with facts. Thanks for playing, and be sure to pick up your consolation prize at the door… :O|
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spending huge sums of money on stupid experiments eg, whether or not a Gorilla can think. Why do you think these experiments are stupid ?
Clearly they’re not finding out the kind of stuff HE’s interested in finding out. To me they are one of most important chance to better understand human behavior. With perhaps *huge* consequences on ourselves.
Maybe he’s a NAZI … figures they can just experiment on Jews … ? BTW, could you put a figure on the words "huge sums of money" ?
I don’t think very large amounts of money are spent on animal cognition. Some, but not a lot compared to, say, erectile- dysfunction and diet drugs.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, who’s to say that the coctail of drugs we drink don’t accumulate into something we pass onto our children who will pass their accumulation to their children, resulting eventually in something worse than Thalidomide, only this time there’s nothing anyone can do about it!? Show us the research on specific dangers before you whip people up into hysteria… help yourself: http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/ Once again, where are the specifics? Not on this page… I’ve got more important things to than try to convince people who are adamantly opposed to learning anything about the subject and intent on speaking from ignorance. In other words, you’re another clueles, emotional liberal who can’ t be bothered with facts. Thanks for playing, and be sure to pick up your consolation prize at the door… :O|
Unfortunately, "clueless, emotional liberal(s) who can’t be bothered with facts" are still allowed to VOTE and set public policy ….. kinda like letting 5-year-olds run things.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – spending huge sums of money on stupid experiments eg, whether or not a Gorilla can think. Why do you think these experiments are stupid ? To me they are one of most important chance to better understand human behavior. With perhaps *huge* consequences on ourselves. BTW, could you put a figure on the words "huge sums of money" ?
Primate research related to language and their abilities to ‘think’ probably isn’t more than a few million dollars a year. Since we haven’t found any aliens yet, trying to figure out what other earth creatures are capable of seems like a reasonable use of our efforts. — "Question, two men starving to death decide to eat their hair like spaghetti. Is that funny?" "Hmmm, well, it depends on if by funny you want to make people laugh." -+Eddie Izzard and Joanna Lumley, "The Cat’s Meow"
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Actually no, I’m someone who’s spent 20 years on cleaning up hazardous waste sites, and I don’t have the time or inclination to try to educate someone like yourself who is the equivalent of a creationist on this issue.
I would really, sincerily be interested to have a look at the actual figures of antidepressor found in tap water in GB Would you have a link, by any chance ?
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, who’s to say that the coctail of drugs we drink don’t accumulate into something we pass onto our children who will pass their accumulation to their children, resulting eventually in something worse than Thalidomide, only this time there’s nothing anyone can do about it!? Show us the research on specific dangers before you whip people up into hysteria… What of all the hermaphrodite fish and frogs they’re starting to notice? Sources? Cites?
Watch out, I hear Waters is considering a remake of "Pink Flamingos". — "Question, two men starving to death decide to eat their hair like spaghetti. Is that funny?" "Hmmm, well, it depends on if by funny you want to make people laugh." -+Eddie Izzard and Joanna Lumley, "The Cat’s Meow"
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, who’s to say that the coctail of drugs we drink don’t accumulate into something we pass onto our children who will pass their accumulation to their children, resulting eventually in something worse than Thalidomide, only this time there’s nothing anyone can do about it!? Show us the research on specific dangers before you whip people up into hysteria… help yourself: http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/ Once again, where are the specifics? Not on this page… I’ve got more important things to than try to convince people who are adamantly opposed to learning anything about the subject and intent on speaking from ignorance. Don’t wrestle with a pig. you only get dirty and the pig likes it. That’ll do pig.
And the pig got up and slowly walked away. — "Question, two men starving to death decide to eat their hair like spaghetti. Is that funny?" "Hmmm, well, it depends on if by funny you want to make people laugh." -+Eddie Izzard and Joanna Lumley, "The Cat’s Meow"
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Prozac ‘found in drinking water’ Prozac tablets Traces of the antidepressant Prozac can be found in the nation’s drinking water, it has been revealed. An Environment Agency report suggests so many people are taking the drug nowadays it is building up in rivers and groundwater. If sub-nanogram quantities had any effect, the manufacturer wouldn’t be wasting all that money putting many milligrams of the stuff into the tablets. Face it, there are surely traces of the moon and mars in your drinking water too. It’s only in the past decade that the tecnology to detect super miniscule quantities of many chemicals has become affordable and accurate. Most ‘contaminants’ have always been there – poop from rabid bats and all the rest. But some of these compounds work ion parts per billion. Look at hormones and their presence in the environment from birth control bills. Parts-per-billion ? What they’re discovering are parts per billions of billions. Unless you’re a believer in homeopathy you ought to ignore such stuff. Well, maybe not. Downstream from Hanford, Washington, there are detectable (parts per billion squared, if you like) radioactive substances that when ingested can lead to damaged DNA when enough micro-REMs are accumulated. There’s been enough said about that.
Didn’t they tell you … your food is full of radioactive isotopes – carbon, potassium etc. All "natural" of course, so I guess that’s OK … Hope you don’t live above sea-level either … It Comes From Beyond The Stars ! So, who’s to say that the coctail of drugs we drink don’t accumulate into something we pass onto our children who will pass their accumulation to their children, resulting eventually in something worse than Thalidomide, only this time there’s nothing anyone can do about it! ?
You’re assuming that all or most drugs ‘accumulate’ or ’concentrate’ up along the food chain the way DDT or PCBs do. If estrogens were that stable then we’d be bathing in the stuff – residue from 500,000,000 years worth of animal life on this planet. As for Prozac, I can’t say HOW stable it is in the environment. Likely not much, likely to get absorbed and degraded by all the marine life. Thing is, don’t get all bent out of shape about "detectable quantities" anymore … because the art of detection is now SO refined that it’s down to counting mere handfuls of molecules. What of all the hermaphrodite fish and frogs they’re starting to notice ?
(a) Many were ALWAYS there – but nobody was looking. (b) Fish and frogs are subject to a variety of fungal infections which can cause odd effects like extra limbs, fins and such. Rather than just passing the buck saying "oh well, I like my wife’s personality flat" we should 1) quit giving drugs like prozac to everyone who thinks they’re "depressed", and 2) paying attention to the effects of these drugs instead of spending huge sums of money on stupid experiments eg, whether or not a Gorilla can think.
That is quasi-LOGICAL … which is why it won’t happen. People want to get happy *NOW*. If they’re already happy they figure they should be MORE happy. Since the little puritans poo-poo the usual get-happy substances, folks jump at the opportunity for *legal* – medically sanctioned – get-happy drugs. As for Gorillas … it’s worth a *little* money to see if they can think – dontchathink ? (BTW, they can – about as well as a 3-year-old human). Drugs in the water is a much bigger problem than some of you think it is. It could eventually doom all life as we know it!!
Nah.
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Prozac ‘found in drinking water’ Prozac tablets Traces of the antidepressant Prozac can be found in the nation’s drinking water, it has been revealed. An Environment Agency report suggests so many people are taking the drug nowadays it is building up in rivers and groundwater.
If sub-nanogram quantities had any effect, the manufacturer wouldn’t be wasting all that money putting many milligrams of the stuff into the tablets. Face it, there are surely traces of the moon and mars in your drinking water too. It’s only in the past decade that the tecnology to detect super miniscule quantities of many chemicals has become affordable and accurate. Most ‘contaminants’ have always been there – poop from rabid bats and all the rest.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Prozac ‘found in drinking water’ Prozac tablets Traces of the antidepressant Prozac can be found in the nation’s drinking water, it has been revealed. An Environment Agency report suggests so many people are taking the drug nowadays it is building up in rivers and groundwater. If sub-nanogram quantities had any effect, the manufacturer wouldn’t be wasting all that money putting many milligrams of the stuff into the tablets. Face it, there are surely traces of the moon and mars in your drinking water too. It’s only in the past decade that the tecnology to detect super miniscule quantities of many chemicals has become affordable and accurate. Most ‘contaminants’ have always been there – poop from rabid bats and all the rest.
A classmate from my lower division chemistry days was working at an analytical lab about 10 years ago, specializing in groundwater contamination. He contends that the push to lower the permissible limits of many groundwater contaminants was driven more by advances in chromatography and spectroscopy that allowed ppb and ppt concentration levels to be detected, than any new evidence pointing to health risks at those low levels…
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Prozac ‘found in drinking water’ Prozac tablets Traces of the antidepressant Prozac can be found in the nation’s drinking water, it has been revealed. An Environment Agency report suggests so many people are taking the drug nowadays it is building up in rivers and groundwater. If sub-nanogram quantities had any effect, the manufacturer wouldn’t be wasting all that money putting many milligrams of the stuff into the tablets. Face it, there are surely traces of the moon and mars in your drinking water too. It’s only in the past decade that the tecnology to detect super miniscule quantities of many chemicals has become affordable and accurate. Most ‘contaminants’ have always been there – poop from rabid bats and all the rest. But some of these compounds work ion parts per billion. Look at hormones and their presence in the environment from birth control bills.
So birth control pills are now available in parts per billion? — "Question, two men starving to death decide to eat their hair like spaghetti. Is that funny?" "Hmmm, well, it depends on if by funny you want to make people laugh." -+Eddie Izzard and Joanna Lumley, "The Cat’s Meow"
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Prozac ‘found in drinking water’ Prozac tablets Traces of the antidepressant Prozac can be found in the nation’s drinking water, it has been revealed. An Environment Agency report suggests so many people are taking the drug nowadays it is building up in rivers and groundwater. If sub-nanogram quantities had any effect, the manufacturer wouldn’t be wasting all that money putting many milligrams of the stuff into the tablets. Face it, there are surely traces of the moon and mars in your drinking water too. It’s only in the past decade that the tecnology to detect super miniscule quantities of many chemicals has become affordable and accurate. Most ‘contaminants’ have always been there – poop from rabid bats and all the rest. But some of these compounds work ion parts per billion. Look at hormones and their presence in the environment from birth control bills.
Parts-per-billion ? What they’re discovering are parts per billions of billions. Unless you’re a believer in homeopathy you ought to ignore such stuff.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Prozac ‘found in drinking water’ Prozac tablets Traces of the antidepressant Prozac can be found in the nation’s drinking water, it has been revealed. An Environment Agency report suggests so many people are taking the drug nowadays it is building up in rivers and groundwater. If sub-nanogram quantities had any effect, the manufacturer wouldn’t be wasting all that money putting many milligrams of the stuff into the tablets. Face it, there are surely traces of the moon and mars in your drinking water too. It’s only in the past decade that the tecnology to detect super miniscule quantities of many chemicals has become affordable and accurate. Most ‘contaminants’ have always been there – poop from rabid bats and all the rest. A classmate from my lower division chemistry days was working at an analytical lab about 10 years ago, specializing in groundwater contamination. He contends that the push to lower the permissible limits of many groundwater contaminants was driven more by advances in chromatography and spectroscopy that allowed ppb and ppt concentration levels to be detected, than any new evidence pointing to health risks at those low levels…
Yep. There was just a thing in NATURE (or maybe SCIENCE) lauding a new level of sensitivity for mass-spectrography. Something like 450 molecules of complex organics. Not hard to get 450 molecules of *anything* in a glass of water. You absorb your sample onto a silicon wafer and then use a laser to tease the organics loose and into the mass-spectrometer. This trick doesn’t damage the complex molecules. Now that they CAN detect such tiny amounts, they’ll immediately start WORRYING about them.
Response:
As usual the "everything’s fine" crowd takes something like this The Environment Agency report concluded that the Prozac in the water table could be potentially toxic and said the drug was a "potential concern". And (apparently they have telepathy) just ASSUME they can GUESS what the reason for this "potential concern" is…and further, make a second assumption that the the basis was, oh, the Environment Agency looking some wacko in the phonebook or flipping a coin. As opposed to their using researchers data on the effects of small amounts consumed constantly every day for years. Already everone’s forgottent the findings about dioxin, lead, and more, being toxic (long term exposure) at lower quantities than previously thought… no point wasting breath debating the ‘all’s fine’ crowd, let intelligent folks read and educate themselves and protect themselves, others, keep asking for extra dioxin and gender bender compounds in your food, and enjoy it… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Prozac ‘found in drinking water’ Prozac tablets Traces of the antidepressant Prozac can be found in the nation’s drinking water, it has been revealed. An Environment Agency report suggests so many people are taking the drug nowadays it is building up in rivers and groundwater. A report in Sunday’s Observer says the government’s environment watchdog has discussed the impact for human health. A spokesman for the Drinking Water Inspectorate (DWI) said the Prozac found was most likely highly diluted. ‘Alarming’ The newspaper says environmentalists are calling for an urgent investigation into the evidence. It quotes the Liberal Democrats’ environment spokesman, Norman Baker MP, as saying the picture emerging looked like "a case of hidden mass medication upon the unsuspecting public". He says: "It is alarming that there is no monitoring of levels of Prozac and other pharmacy residues in our drinking water." Experts say the anti-depression drug gets into the rivers and water system via treated sewage water. Prescriptions increase The DWI said the Prozac was unlikely to pose a health risk as it was so "watered down". The Observer says the revelations raise new fears over how many prescriptions for the drug are given out by doctors. In the decade leading up to 2001, the number of prescriptions for antidepressants went up from nine million per year to 24 million per year, says the paper. The Environment Agency report concluded that the Prozac in the water table could be potentially toxic and said the drug was a "potential concern". [I see...] The exact amount of Prozac in the nation’s drinking water is not known. [I see, that's ressuring, too... -ED] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3545684.stm = = = = STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT’S GOING ON? = = = = Daily online radio show, news reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org = = = = Sorry, we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace) And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general) ** ANTI-SPAM EMAIL NOTE: For email "info" and "map" don’t work. Email to ** m-a-i-l-m-a-i-l (without the dashes) at economicdemocracy.org instead
Response:
As usual the "everything’s fine" crowd takes something like this The Environment Agency report concluded that the Prozac in the water table could be potentially toxic and said the drug was a "potential concern".
In what concentrations? Source? Cites? As opposed to their using researchers data on the effects of small amounts consumed constantly every day for years.
Again, cites for your assertions? Already everone’s forgottent the findings about dioxin, lead, and more, being toxic (long term exposure) at lower quantities than previously thought…
Sources?
Response:
So, who’s to say that the coctail of drugs we drink don’t accumulate into something we pass onto our children who will pass their accumulation to their children, resulting eventually in something worse than Thalidomide, only this time there’s nothing anyone can do about it!? Show us the research on specific dangers before you whip people up into hysteria… help yourself: http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/
Once again, where are the specifics? Not on this page…
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Prozac ‘found in drinking water’ Prozac tablets Traces of the antidepressant Prozac can be found in the nation’s drinking water, it has been revealed. An Environment Agency report suggests so many people are taking the drug nowadays it is building up in rivers and groundwater. If sub-nanogram quantities had any effect, the manufacturer wouldn’t be wasting all that money putting many milligrams of the stuff into the tablets. Face it, there are surely traces of the moon and mars in your drinking water too. It’s only in the past decade that the tecnology to detect super miniscule quantities of many chemicals has become affordable and accurate. Most ‘contaminants’ have always been there – poop from rabid bats and all the rest. But some of these compounds work ion parts per billion. Look at hormones and their presence in the environment from birth control bills. Parts-per-billion ? What they’re discovering are parts per billions of billions. Unless you’re a believer in homeopathy you ought to ignore such stuff. Well, maybe not. Downstream from Hanford, Washington, there are detectable (parts per billion squared, if you like) radioactive substances that when ingested can lead to damaged DNA when enough micro-REMs are accumulated. There’s been enough said about that. So, who’s to say that the coctail of drugs we drink don’t accumulate into something we pass onto our children who will pass their accumulation to their children, resulting eventually in something worse than Thalidomide, only this time there’s nothing anyone can do about it!?
Show us the research on specific dangers before you whip people up into hysteria… What of all the hermaphrodite fish and frogs they’re starting to notice?
Sources? Cites? Drugs in the water is a much bigger problem than some of you think it is. It could eventually doom all life as we know it!!
Do you run around yelling "the sky is falling!" every time you get bonked on the head?
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Prozac ‘found in drinking water’ Prozac tablets Traces of the antidepressant Prozac can be found in the nation’s drinking water, it has been revealed. An Environment Agency report suggests so many people are taking the drug nowadays it is building up in rivers and groundwater. If sub-nanogram quantities had any effect, the manufacturer wouldn’t be wasting all that money putting many milligrams of the stuff into the tablets. Face it, there are surely traces of the moon and mars in your drinking water too. It’s only in the past decade that the tecnology to detect super miniscule quantities of many chemicals has become affordable and accurate. Most ‘contaminants’ have always been there – poop from rabid bats and all the rest. But some of these compounds work ion parts per billion. Look at hormones and their presence in the environment from birth control bills. Parts-per-billion ? What they’re discovering are parts per billions of billions. Unless you’re a believer in homeopathy you ought to ignore such stuff.
Well, maybe not. Downstream from Hanford, Washington, there are detectable (parts per billion squared, if you like) radioactive substances that when ingested can lead to damaged DNA when enough micro-REMs are accumulated. There’s been enough said about that. So, who’s to say that the coctail of drugs we drink don’t accumulate into something we pass onto our children who will pass their accumulation to their children, resulting eventually in something worse than Thalidomide, only this time there’s nothing anyone can do about it!? What of all the hermaphrodite fish and frogs they’re starting to notice? Rather than just passing the buck saying "oh well, I like my wife’s personality flat" we should 1) quit giving drugs like prozac to everyone who thinks they’re "depressed", and 2) paying attention to the effects of these drugs instead of spending huge sums of money on stupid experiments eg, whether or not a Gorilla can think. Drugs in the water is a much bigger problem than some of you think it is. It could eventually doom all life as we know it!! Matt
Response:
Prozac ‘found in drinking water’ Prozac tablets Traces of the antidepressant Prozac can be found in the nation’s drinking water, it has been revealed. An Environment Agency report suggests so many people are taking the drug nowadays it is building up in rivers and groundwater. A report in Sunday’s Observer says the government’s environment watchdog has discussed the impact for human health. A spokesman for the Drinking Water Inspectorate (DWI) said the Prozac found was most likely highly diluted. ‘Alarming’ The newspaper says environmentalists are calling for an urgent investigation into the evidence. It quotes the Liberal Democrats’ environment spokesman, Norman Baker MP, as saying the picture emerging looked like "a case of hidden mass medication upon the unsuspecting public". He says: "It is alarming that there is no monitoring of levels of Prozac and other pharmacy residues in our drinking water." Experts say the anti-depression drug gets into the rivers and water system via treated sewage water. Prescriptions increase The DWI said the Prozac was unlikely to pose a health risk as it was so "watered down". The Observer says the revelations raise new fears over how many prescriptions for the drug are given out by doctors. In the decade leading up to 2001, the number of prescriptions for antidepressants went up from nine million per year to 24 million per year, says the paper. The Environment Agency report concluded that the Prozac in the water table could be potentially toxic and said the drug was a "potential concern". [I see...] The exact amount of Prozac in the nation’s drinking water is not known. [I see, that's ressuring, too... -ED] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3545684.stm = = = = STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT’S GOING ON? = = = = Daily online radio show, news reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org = = = = Sorry, we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace) And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general) ** ANTI-SPAM EMAIL NOTE: For email "info" and "map" don’t work. Email to ** m-a-i-l-m-a-i-l (without the dashes) at economicdemocracy.org instead
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Question:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [Veteran Middle East Journalist Robert Fisk] writes "watching any Western television station in Baghdad these days is like tuning in to Planet Mars. Doesn/t Blair realise that Iraq is about to implode? Doesn/t Bush realise this? The American-appointed "government" controls only parts of Baghdad – and even there its ministers and civil servants are car-bombed and assassinated. Baquba, Samara, Kut, Mahmoudiya, Hilla, Fallujah, Ramadi, all are outside government authority. Iyad Allawi, the "Prime Minister," is little more than mayor of Baghdad. The famed British correspondent reveals how the so-called Iraqi government controls little in Iraq beyond Baghdad. And we speak with Christian Science Monitor report Scott Balauf who just left Najaf. = = = In Iraq, Shiite cleric Moktada al-Sadr has called off his two-month truce with the US-backed forces and called for a holy war against the US and other coalition troops. Ahmed Shaybani, a spokesman for Sadr, said it was the U.S.-backed occupation forces who broke the truce by entering sacred areas of the holy city Najaf and damaging the shrine of Imam Ali. Shaybani told the Washington Post "This is a revolution against the occupation force until we get independence and democracy." Sadr’s call for an uprising marks the biggest challenge yet to the new unelected Iraqi government.
Saddam Hussein was the best thing that happened to Iraq. He was a beastly ruler, but a good ruler of beasts.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [Veteran Middle East Journalist Robert Fisk] writes "watching any Western television station in Baghdad these days is like tuning in to Planet Mars. Doesn/t Blair realise that Iraq is about to implode? Doesn/t Bush realise this? The American-appointed "government" controls only parts of Baghdad – and even there its ministers and civil servants are car-bombed and assassinated. Baquba, Samara, Kut, Mahmoudiya, Hilla, Fallujah, Ramadi, all are outside government authority. Iyad Allawi, the "Prime Minister," is little more than mayor of Baghdad. The famed British correspondent reveals how the so-called Iraqi government controls little in Iraq beyond Baghdad. And we speak with Christian Science Monitor report Scott Balauf who just left Najaf. = = = In Iraq, Shiite cleric Moktada al-Sadr has called off his two-month truce with the US-backed forces and called for a holy war against the US and other coalition troops. Ahmed Shaybani, a spokesman for Sadr, said it was the U.S.-backed occupation forces who broke the truce by entering sacred areas of the holy city Najaf and damaging the shrine of Imam Ali. Shaybani told the Washington Post "This is a revolution against the occupation force until we get independence and democracy." Sadr’s call for an uprising marks the biggest challenge yet to the new unelected Iraqi government. Saddam Hussein was the best thing that happened to Iraq. He was a beastly ruler, but a good ruler of beasts.
Saddam Hussein was NOT the best thing that happened to Iraq…but maybe what you REALLY mean is "was the best thing IN Iraq to happen for Washington" and that’s true…when anti-war folks like us point this out, there is usually screaming denial… like every other dictator (an easier way to control a country is carrots and sticks given to dictators, rather than negotiating with democratic reps, so Washington prefers the former when that’s the only way to get its way — note: to get what benefits Washington and the special intersts who own it, not things that benefits us "grunts" in the general US population) As Chomsky said in 1991 http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/articles/z9105-what-we-say.html Saddam was kept in power (admitted in a NY Times story) not because Bush Sr. had a single "lets use diplomacy rather than carpet bomb" bone in his body, but because the Iraqi democratic resistance was not what Bush wanted (too unpredictable, those dang democratic movements) so they wanted another Iron-fisted (but more obedient, like Saddam USED to be) ruler in IRaq, and were hoping such a thug would overthrow the existing thug (saddam) which is why they let saddam… (one cute little quote from the above article: These judgments were confirmed in the following weeks. Bush had openly encouraged uprisings against Saddam Hussein, and, according to intelligence sources, had authorized the CIA in January to aid rebels — secretly, perhaps to avoid offending his Turkish and Saudi friends. But he stood by quietly as Saddam slaughtered Shi’ites and Kurds, tacitly approving the use of helicopter gunships to massacre civilians, refusing to impede the terror or even to provide humanitarian aid to the victims. Fleeing refugees bitterly asked journalists "Where is George Bush," probably not knowing the answer: he was fishing in Florida. Turkey was accused by Kurdish leaders of blocking food shipments to starving Kurds, and later closed its borders to most of those in flight. US forces turned back people fleeing the terror in the South, and refused even to provide food and water to those who had escaped, Reuters reported, though individual soldiers did so. A senior Pentagon official said: "The bottom line here is, if you’re suggesting we would stay purely for a purpose of protecting the refugees, we won’t." "We are under no obligation to them," another added. Our job is to destroy, nothing more. The US and Britain barred efforts to have the UN Security Council condemn the massacre, let alone act in any way, until it was too late to matter.27 ) Headlines from http://www.DemocracyNow.org = = = = STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT’S GOING ON? = = = = Daily online radio show, news reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org = = = = Sorry, we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace) And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general) ** ANTI-SPAM EMAIL NOTE: For email "info" and "map" don’t work. Email to ** m-a-i-l-m-a-i-l (without the dashes) at economicdemocracy.org instead
Response:
[Veteran Middle East Journalist Robert Fisk] writes "watching any Western television station in Baghdad these days is like tuning in to Planet Mars. Doesn/t Blair realise that Iraq is about to implode? Doesn/t Bush realise this? The American-appointed "government" controls only parts of Baghdad – and even there its ministers and civil servants are car-bombed and assassinated. Baquba, Samara, Kut, Mahmoudiya, Hilla, Fallujah, Ramadi, all are outside government authority. Iyad Allawi, the "Prime Minister," is little more than mayor of Baghdad. The famed British correspondent reveals how the so-called Iraqi government controls little in Iraq beyond Baghdad. And we speak with Christian Science Monitor report Scott Balauf who just left Najaf. = = = In Iraq, Shiite cleric Moktada al-Sadr has called off his two-month truce with the US-backed forces and called for a holy war against the US and other coalition troops. Ahmed Shaybani, a spokesman for Sadr, said it was the U.S.-backed occupation forces who broke the truce by entering sacred areas of the holy city Najaf and damaging the shrine of Imam Ali. Shaybani told the Washington Post "This is a revolution against the occupation force until we get independence and democracy." Sadr’s call for an uprising marks the biggest challenge yet to the new unelected Iraqi government. The fragile truce began to unravel on Sunday when when police arrested a representative of Sadr in Karbala. In a statement to followers yesterday Sadr said "Fight the blasphemous, fight the Americans." Since yesterday, Sadr’s forces have been fighting US and coalition troops in Najaf, Basra, Nasiriyah and Baghdad. Interior Minister Falah Naqib pledged yesterday to find and arrest Sadr. He said "We will not negotiate. We will fight these militias. We have power to stop these people, and we’ll kick them out of the country." The U.S. has responded to the uprising by bombing portions of the Sadr City district in Baghad and the holy city of Najaf. Agence France Press reports at least 50 people have been killed and another 170 wounded in the fighting. Meanwhile Iraq’s leading Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, has left the country to seek medical treatment in London. Sistani has wide influence over the country’s majority Shiites and has advocated moderation during the U.S. occupation. We are joined on the phone by Robert Fisk, reporter for the London Independent. In an article published this week, Fisk predicted that Iraq was on the edge of explosion. He writes "watching any Western television station in Baghdad these days is like tuning in to Planet Mars. Doesn/t Blair realise that Iraq is about to implode? Doesn/t Bush realise this? The American-appointed "government" controls only parts of Baghdad – and even there its ministers and civil servants are car-bombed and assassinated. Baquba, Samara, Kut, Mahmoudiya, Hilla, Fallujah, Ramadi, all are outside government authority. Iyad Allawi, the "Prime Minister," is little more than mayor of Baghdad. "Some journalists," Blair announces, "almost want there to be a disaster in Iraq." He doesn/t get it. The disaster exists now." * Robert Fisk, foreign correspondent for the Independent (UK). He recently left Iraq. * Scott Baldauf, Christian Science Monitor who left Najaf earlier today. He is the paper"s South Asia bureau chief. Listen online at http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/08/06/152250 (audio should be uploaded by Fri afternoon) = = = = STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT’S GOING ON? = = = = Daily online radio show, news reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org = = = = Sorry, we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace) And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general) ** ANTI-SPAM EMAIL NOTE: For email "info" and "map" don’t work. Email to ** m-a-i-l-m-a-i-l (without the dashes) at economicdemocracy.org instead
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Question:
Baloney! I read the reports in the Smithonian and Discovery. The sun has been increasing in brightness for at least the last 100 years. The scientist concluded, as most any logical person would, that solar radiation is the biggest contributor to our current global warming cycle. As far as green ouse emmissions causing global warming I remember this same group of people proclaming we were entering a new ice age in the 70s. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the Earth’s temperature has risen dramatically in the last 30 years while the solar brightness has not appreciably increased in this time," they said. [Like the other 99,999 scientists whose careful studies show results the "flat earth" so-called climate 'skeptics' don't like, this latest piece of evidnece on the mountain of evidence that we have better stop playing roulette with the planet's climate, will be similarly greeted by the fossil fools. Yawn... For those who have better places for their heads than the sand, this will be worthwhile reading, and the action websites at bottom -ED] Greenhouse Gases, Not Solar Activity, Cause of Global Warming KATLENBURG-LINDAU, Germany, August 3, 2004 (ENS) – Solar activity affects the climate but plays only a minor role in the current global warming, a German-Finnish team of scientists has found. Since the middle of the last century, the Sun has been in a phase of unusually high activity, shown by frequent occurrences of sunspots, gas eruptions, and radiation storms. The influence of the Sun on the Earth was believed to be one cause of the global warming observed since 1900, along with the emission of the greenhouse gas, carbon dioxide, from the combustion of coal, gas, and oil. But Professor Sami Solanki, solar physicist and director at the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research, is not convinced that the increased activity of the Sun is responsible for global warming. He says that based on his team’s research, the Sun can be responsible for, at most, only a small part of the warming over the last 20 to 30 years. "Just how large this role is, must still be investigated," he says, "since, according to our latest knowledge on the variations of the solar magnetic field, the significant increase in the Earth’s temperature since 1980 is indeed to be ascribed to the greenhouse effect caused by carbon dioxide." Solanki and other researchers at the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research (MPS) and at the University of Oulu in Finland reconstructed solar activity based on sunspot frequency since 850 AD. They found that since 1940 the mean sunspot number is higher than it has ever been in the last thousand years and 2.5 times higher than the long term average, as they report in the scientific journal, "Physical Review Letters." Then they combined historical sunspot records with measurements of the frequency of radioactive isotopes in ice cores from Greenland and the Antarctic. In addition, the MPS scientists took the measured and calculated variations in the solar brightness over the last 150 years and compared them to the temperature of the Earth. "Although the changes in the two values tend to follow each other for roughly the first 120 years, the Earth’s temperature has risen dramatically in the last 30 years while the solar brightness has not appreciably increased in this time," they said. The Sun affects Earth’s climate through several physical processes. For one thing, the Sun’s total radiation, particularly that in the ultraviolet range, varies with solar activity. When many sunspots are visible, the Sun is somewhat brighter than in "quiet" times and radiates considerably more in the ultraviolet, the MPS scientists say. On the other hand, the cosmic ray intensity entering the Earth’s atmosphere varies opposite to the solar activity, since the cosmic ray particles are deflected by the Sun’s magnetic field to a greater or lesser degree. A model proposed by Danish researchers that has attracted much attention from solar and climate scientists says that the ions produced by cosmic rays act as condensation nuclei for larger suspension particles and so contribute to cloud formation. With increased solar activity, and stronger magnetic fields, the Danish model shows, the cosmic ray intensity decreases, and with it the amount of cloud coverage, resulting in a rise of temperatures on the Earth. Conversely, a reduction in solar activity produces lower temperatures. To check this idea, Dr. Solanki and fellow MPS scientist Natalie Krivova calculated the Sun’s main parameters affecting climate for the last 150 years using current measurements and the newest models. The calculated the total radiation, the ultraviolet output, and the Sun’s magnetic field, which modulates the cosmic ray intensity. They came to the conclusion that the variations on the Sun run parallel to climate changes for most of that time, indicating that the Sun has indeed influenced the climate in the past. Just how large this influence is, is subject to further investigation. However, they said, "since about 1980, while the total solar radiation, its ultraviolet component, and the cosmic ray intensity all exhibit the 11-year solar periodicity, there has otherwise been no significant increase in their values. In contrast, the Earth has warmed up considerably within this time period. This means that the Sun is not the cause of the present global warming." http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/aug2004/2004-08-03-03.asp DON’T MOURN, ACT! WEBSITES FOR ACTION: http://www.greenhousenet.org/ http://www.gristmagazine.com/dogood/climate.asp http://www.solarcatalyst.com/ Overview and local actions you can take: http://www.PostCarbon.org = = = = STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT’S GOING ON? = = = = Daily online radio show, news reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org = = = = Sorry, we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace) And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general) ** ANTI-SPAM EMAIL NOTE: For email "info" and "map" don’t work. Email instead ** to m-a-i-l-m-a-i-l (without the dashes) at economicdemocracy.org
Response:
the Earth’s temperature has risen dramatically in the last 30 years while the solar brightness has not appreciably increased in this time," they said. [Like the other 99,999 scientists whose careful studies show results the "flat earth" so-called climate 'skeptics' don't like, this latest piece of evidnece on the mountain of evidence that we have better stop playing roulette with the planet's climate, will be similarly greeted by the fossil fools. Yawn... For those who have better places for their heads than the sand, this will be worthwhile reading, and the action websites at bottom -ED] Greenhouse Gases, Not Solar Activity, Cause of Global Warming KATLENBURG-LINDAU, Germany, August 3, 2004 (ENS) – Solar activity affects the climate but plays only a minor role in the current global warming, a German-Finnish team of scientists has found. Since the middle of the last century, the Sun has been in a phase of unusually high activity, shown by frequent occurrences of sunspots, gas eruptions, and radiation storms. The influence of the Sun on the Earth was believed to be one cause of the global warming observed since 1900, along with the emission of the greenhouse gas, carbon dioxide, from the combustion of coal, gas, and oil. But Professor Sami Solanki, solar physicist and director at the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research, is not convinced that the increased activity of the Sun is responsible for global warming. He says that based on his team’s research, the Sun can be responsible for, at most, only a small part of the warming over the last 20 to 30 years. "Just how large this role is, must still be investigated," he says, "since, according to our latest knowledge on the variations of the solar magnetic field, the significant increase in the Earth’s temperature since 1980 is indeed to be ascribed to the greenhouse effect caused by carbon dioxide." Solanki and other researchers at the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research (MPS) and at the University of Oulu in Finland reconstructed solar activity based on sunspot frequency since 850 AD. They found that since 1940 the mean sunspot number is higher than it has ever been in the last thousand years and 2.5 times higher than the long term average, as they report in the scientific journal, "Physical Review Letters." Then they combined historical sunspot records with measurements of the frequency of radioactive isotopes in ice cores from Greenland and the Antarctic. In addition, the MPS scientists took the measured and calculated variations in the solar brightness over the last 150 years and compared them to the temperature of the Earth. "Although the changes in the two values tend to follow each other for roughly the first 120 years, the Earth’s temperature has risen dramatically in the last 30 years while the solar brightness has not appreciably increased in this time," they said. The Sun affects Earth’s climate through several physical processes. For one thing, the Sun’s total radiation, particularly that in the ultraviolet range, varies with solar activity. When many sunspots are visible, the Sun is somewhat brighter than in "quiet" times and radiates considerably more in the ultraviolet, the MPS scientists say. On the other hand, the cosmic ray intensity entering the Earth’s atmosphere varies opposite to the solar activity, since the cosmic ray particles are deflected by the Sun’s magnetic field to a greater or lesser degree. A model proposed by Danish researchers that has attracted much attention from solar and climate scientists says that the ions produced by cosmic rays act as condensation nuclei for larger suspension particles and so contribute to cloud formation. With increased solar activity, and stronger magnetic fields, the Danish model shows, the cosmic ray intensity decreases, and with it the amount of cloud coverage, resulting in a rise of temperatures on the Earth. Conversely, a reduction in solar activity produces lower temperatures. To check this idea, Dr. Solanki and fellow MPS scientist Natalie Krivova calculated the Sun’s main parameters affecting climate for the last 150 years using current measurements and the newest models. The calculated the total radiation, the ultraviolet output, and the Sun’s magnetic field, which modulates the cosmic ray intensity. They came to the conclusion that the variations on the Sun run parallel to climate changes for most of that time, indicating that the Sun has indeed influenced the climate in the past. Just how large this influence is, is subject to further investigation. However, they said, "since about 1980, while the total solar radiation, its ultraviolet component, and the cosmic ray intensity all exhibit the 11-year solar periodicity, there has otherwise been no significant increase in their values. In contrast, the Earth has warmed up considerably within this time period. This means that the Sun is not the cause of the present global warming." http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/aug2004/2004-08-03-03.asp DON’T MOURN, ACT! WEBSITES FOR ACTION: http://www.greenhousenet.org/ http://www.gristmagazine.com/dogood/climate.asp http://www.solarcatalyst.com/ Overview and local actions you can take: http://www.PostCarbon.org = = = = STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT’S GOING ON? = = = = Daily online radio show, news reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org = = = = Sorry, we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace) And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general) ** ANTI-SPAM EMAIL NOTE: For email "info" and "map" don’t work. Email instead ** to m-a-i-l-m-a-i-l (without the dashes) at economicdemocracy.org
Response:
Question:
Hasta, gotcha. 
I’m sorry I misunderstood before. Like, "Thank you for sharing." I was getting into earnest sermonizing so much that I missed your irony – which is one of the dangers of doing earnest sermonizing, even in a good cause like environmental sanity. Have a good one, and thanks for the humor. Meanwhile, do you have any comment on the new news about accelerated melting of the Greenland glaciers? – JA
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Response:
Hasta, gotcha. I’m sorry I misunderstood before. Like, "Thank you for sharing." I was getting into earnest sermonizing so much that I missed your irony – which is one of the dangers of doing earnest sermonizing, even in a good cause like environmental sanity. Have a good one, and thanks for the humor. Meanwhile, do you have any comment on the new news about accelerated melting of the Greenland glaciers? – JA ** – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s all happening much, much faster than we think. Lots of things happen faster than liberals think – so what’s new? Thanks for your insight, Stan Now I understand better the problem and its solution… Reply to Hasta: Are you just too young to know better, when you write that Stan’s putdown of "liberals" is any answer to anything? John… That was irony 
More precisely, I just wanted to point that Stan’s statement may be correct, or may be incorrect, but at any rate does not help the slightest bit to understand the problem, asses its consequences, and devise a working solution…
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s all happening much, much faster than we think. Lots of things happen faster than liberals think – so what’s new? Thanks for your insight, Stan Now I understand better the problem and its solution… Reply to Hasta: Are you just too young to know better, when you write that Stan’s putdown of "liberals" is any answer to anything?
John… That was irony
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s all happening much, much faster than we think. Lots of things happen faster than liberals think – so what’s new? Thanks for your insight, Stan Now I understand better the problem and its solution… Reply to Hasta: Are you just too young to know better, when you write that Stan’s putdown of "liberals" is any answer to anything? John… That was irony
More precisely, I just wanted to point that Stan’s statement may be correct, or may be incorrect, but at any rate does not help the slightest bit to understand the problem, asses its consequences, and devise a working solution…
Response:
It’s all happening much, much faster than we think. Lots of things happen faster than liberals think – so what’s new?
Thanks for your insight, Stan Now I understand better the problem and its solution…
Response:
It’s all happening much, much faster than we think. Lots of things happen faster than liberals think – so what’s new? Thanks for your insight, Stan Now I understand better the problem and its solution…
Reply to Hasta: Are you just too young to know better, when you write that Stan’s putdown of "liberals" is any answer to anything? Obviously, you may despise people who you think of as liberals – fine. It’s a free country; go right ahead. You have a constitutional right to do this. And who knows: you may be right. But having an ATTITUDE – a conservative attitude OR a liberal attitude — is exactly that. No more. It doesn’t ensure that you’re absorbing new information that you need to function, either as an American citizen or a citizen of the world. It doesn’t tell you a damned thing, * all by itself * about events underway in the real world outside the political filters in your brain. What’s actually happening with the climate, and what role does CO2 generated by human industry actually play in the changes that are underway? This isn’t a question that conservativism, liberalism, "free market" capitalism, socialism, anarchism, fascism, religion, atheism, or even membership in some environmental group can answer automatically. What are the damned scientists discovering? What are the news media finding about the melting (or the non- melting) of the Greenland glaciers? What’s the latest data from the weather satellites saying? However much you hate "liberals," it isn’t just liberals who are slow in adjusting their thinking to this information. It’s almost everyone, because the world is really complicated and most people can’t afford to specialize in keeping track of the many trends that we — as citizens — all need to understand. What does despising "liberals" tell you about possible solutions to the AIDS crisis, Hasta? What does liberalism, conservatism or any other "ism" tell you of the best ways to ensure clean water in your community? What does it say, if anything, about the existence or non-existence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, or what’s currently on Osama Bin Laden’s mind, or whether Bush’s invasion of Iraq was a good or bad strategy, militarily? A healthy distrust of "liberalism," all by itself, doesn’t answer these questions. It also won’t tell you whether you’re allergic to Chinese food, or whether a new patent cold medicine will work for you. Or whether the air quality in your community is healthy or unhealthy during the evening rush hours when there are thousands of cars on the road. You need something more than ATTITUDE to answer these questions, Hasta: you need to really dig into the information available, and you need to think about it some to see whether it fits into your current political ideas or indicates they need to be adjusted. Like all too many of us, whether of the right, left or center, you may still be using your political beliefs like a religious faith, or even an imagined magic formula, that serves to filter out practical and intellectual complications that might disturb your sleep if you had to think about them seriously. Well, if so – please wake up, and start taking the complexities seriously. Not just as a liberal, a conservative, a libertarian, a totalitarian, a democratic socialist (like me), an environmentalist or anti-environmentalist – but as a seeker after reality. Dismissing other people or dismissing new data on the grounds of ideology alone is child’s play, and to be a responsible citizen of the US and the world, you need to become adult.
Response:
It’s all happening much, much faster than we think. Lots of things happen faster than liberals think – so what’s new?
Stan, what added insight do you get by targeting "liberals" here? Apart from the fun of the insult, of course. Presumably you’re conservative, and you THINK that you think better than other people. But do you really believe that conservatives — and western, American conservatives at that, and not "conservative" Hindus, Muslims, Jainists, animists, Taoists, Voodoo practicioners, Native Americans or Australian Aborigines – have all the truth in the universe on their side? Do you seriously imagine that nobody else in the world understands anything, or sees anything important, or has anything to contribute in the way of thought — except your brand of conservatives? I think you’re just using words here, namely "liberal," to block out a whole universe of information that you don’t feel confident dealing with. In this case the information is about global climate change and the melting of the Greenland glaciers, which is happening much faster than most people – conservatives, liberals, socialists, Christian Scientists, Mormons, etc., etc. — thought was possible. Maybe if you wave your hands in the air and chant "liberal, liberal, liberal, liberal," Stan, you can make the increased melting go away. Maybe if "liberals" believe that 2 + 2 equals 4, Stan, you can be confident that they make 7. Do you think they make 7?
Response:
It’s all happening much, much faster than we think.
Lots of things happen faster than liberals think – so what’s new?
Response:
"There is no doubt that something very major is happening here." For the past few years he has been managing a network of 10 automatic monitoring stations and his first results are alarming – the edges of the ice-sheet are melting up to 10 times more rapidly than earlier research had indicated. Greenland ice-melt ’speeding up’ By David Shukman BBC environment and science correspondent in Greenland First you hear a savage cracking sound, next the rolling crash of thunder. Then as the icebergs rip away from the margin of the ice-sheet they plunge into the grey waters of the Atlantic with a roar that echoes around the mountains. Nothing prepares you for the sheer scale and drama of events in this forbidding terrain and all the signs are that the changes at work here are gathering pace. The only way to reach the ice-sheet is by helicopter – a spectacular flight through remote fjords and the jagged blue-white rubble of the ice. We travelled with Danish scientist Carl Boggild of GEUS, the Geological Survey of Denmark and Greenland. For the past few years he has been managing a network of 10 automatic monitoring stations and his first results are alarming – the edges of the ice-sheet are melting up to 10 times more rapidly than earlier research had indicated. Cracks and crevasses In 2001 NASA scientists published a major study based on observations by satellite and aircraft. It concluded that the margins of the Greenland ice-sheet were dropping in height at a rate of roughly one metre a year. Now, amid some of the most hostile conditions anywhere on the planet, Carl Boggild and his team have recorded falls as dramatic as 10 metres a year – in places the ice is dropping at a rate of one metre a month. The glacier we visited – the Sermilik glacier in southern Greenland – is so volatile that one automatic monitoring station was lost into a yawning crevasse. Between a maintenance visit in May and our visit this month, new cracks had opened up in the icy surface and we had to help shift one of the devices to a safer position. Engravings from the late 19th Century show how the glacier once reached far into the ocean and satellite pictures highlight how the retreat has accelerated – the glacier dropping an astounding 150 metres in the last 15 years. The latest data shows the melting picking up even more speed. Heating up? A vicious wind whipping across 2,000 kilometres of solid ice – the length of the Greenland ice-sheet – chilled us as we filmed. But the feeling of cold was ironic – it is the rise in air temperatures recorded here that is at least partly responsible for the sudden acceleration of the melting. Dr Boggild and his colleagues, studying the physics of how the air and ice relate, conclude that as much as 55% of the melting is attributable to warming in the air. He is cautious to avoid blaming climate change too readily: "Maybe if we look back after 50 years and see how temperatures have risen, then we can call it climate change." Sea level rise Dr Boggild is all too aware of how easily he could be accused of jumping onto a climate change bandwagon. But he is adamant that the results he has gathered so far are reliable. "We can say for certain that the rate of melting has increased and we can say for certain that the height of the ice-sheet is falling, even allowing for increased ice-flow. "There is no doubt that something very major is happening here." As we speak, he checks the instruments on the automatic station. A large range of data is collected and transmitted via satellite to Copenhagen every six hours. For the first time, scientists should have a long-term, on-the-ground view of the changes taking place here. Just before we leave, there is another roar as more icebergs crash into the ocean Many more icebergs falling into the sea will cause two things to happen – the sea-level will rise and the injection of freshwater could disrupt the ocean currents, including the Gulf Stream. What happens in this remote barren land has the potential to affect us all. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/europe/3922579.stm DON’T MOURN, ACT! WEBSITES FOR ACTION: http://www.greenhousenet.org/ http://www.gristmagazine.com/dogood/climate.asp http://www.solarcatalyst.com/ Overview and local actions you can take: http://www.PostCarbon.org = = = = STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT’S GOING ON? = = = = Daily online radio show, news reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org = = = = Sorry, we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace) And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general) ** ANTI-SPAM EMAIL NOTE: For email "info" and "map" don’t work. Email instead ** to m-a-i-l-m-a-i-l (without the dashes) at economicdemocracy.org
Response:
It’s all happening much, much faster than we think. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greenland ice-melt ’speeding up’ By David Shukman BBC environment and science correspondent in Greenland First you hear a savage cracking sound, next the rolling crash of thunder. Then as the icebergs rip away from the margin of the ice-sheet they plunge into the grey waters of the Atlantic with a roar that echoes around the mountains. Nothing prepares you for the sheer scale and drama of events in this forbidding terrain and all the signs are that the changes at work here are gathering pace. The only way to reach the ice-sheet is by helicopter – a spectacular flight through remote fjords and the jagged blue-white rubble of the ice. We travelled with Danish scientist Carl Boggild of GEUS, the Geological Survey of Denmark and Greenland. For the past few years he has been managing a network of 10 automatic monitoring stations and his first results are alarming – the edges of the ice-sheet are melting up to 10 times more rapidly than earlier research had indicated. Cracks and crevasses In 2001 NASA scientists published a major study based on observations by satellite and aircraft. It concluded that the margins of the Greenland ice-sheet were dropping in height at a rate of roughly one metre a year. Now, amid some of the most hostile conditions anywhere on the planet, Carl Boggild and his team have recorded falls as dramatic as 10 metres a year – in places the ice is dropping at a rate of one metre a month. The glacier we visited – the Sermilik glacier in southern Greenland – is so volatile that one automatic monitoring station was lost into a yawning crevasse. Between a maintenance visit in May and our visit this month, new cracks had opened up in the icy surface and we had to help shift one of the devices to a safer position. Engravings from the late 19th Century show how the glacier once reached far into the ocean and satellite pictures highlight how the retreat has accelerated – the glacier dropping an astounding 150 metres in the last 15 years. The latest data shows the melting picking up even more speed. Heating up? A vicious wind whipping across 2,000 kilometres of solid ice – the length of the Greenland ice-sheet – chilled us as we filmed. But the feeling of cold was ironic – it is the rise in air temperatures recorded here that is at least partly responsible for the sudden acceleration of the melting. Dr Boggild and his colleagues, studying the physics of how the air and ice relate, conclude that as much as 55% of the melting is attributable to warming in the air. He is cautious to avoid blaming climate change too readily: "Maybe if we look back after 50 years and see how temperatures have risen, then we can call it climate change." Sea level rise Dr Boggild is all too aware of how easily he could be accused of jumping onto a climate change bandwagon. But he is adamant that the results he has gathered so far are reliable. "We can say for certain that the rate of melting has increased and we can say for certain that the height of the ice-sheet is falling, even allowing for increased ice-flow. "There is no doubt that something very major is happening here." As we speak, he checks the instruments on the automatic station. A large range of data is collected and transmitted via satellite to Copenhagen every six hours. For the first time, scientists should have a long-term, on-the-ground view of the changes taking place here. Just before we leave, there is another roar as more icebergs crash into the ocean Many more icebergs falling into the sea will cause two things to happen – the sea-level will rise and the injection of freshwater could disrupt the ocean currents, including the Gulf Stream. What happens in this remote barren land has the potential to affect us all. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/europe/3922579.stm DON’T MOURN, ACT! WEBSITES FOR ACTION: http://www.greenhousenet.org/ http://www.gristmagazine.com/dogood/climate.asp http://www.solarcatalyst.com/ Overview and local actions you can take: http://www.PostCarbon.org = = = = STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT’S GOING ON? = = = = Daily online radio show, news reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org = = = = Sorry, we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace) And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general) ** ANTI-SPAM EMAIL NOTE: For email "info" and "map" don’t work. Email instead ** to m-a-i-l-m-a-i-l (without the dashes) at economicdemocracy.org
Response:
Question:
July 20th, 2004 12:52 pm Fahrenheit 911 is Fair and Balanced by Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman / Common Dreams We’ve come to expect poisonous and unbalanced attacks from the paid far right propagandists…
<yawn Jim
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – troops. We had to defend ourselve from the evil-doers. Saddam was getting ready to attack us don’t you remember the mobile biological labs (the only reason we’ve not found them yet is cos they are on the move). Can’t you remember watching all this on Fox news. god bless america Poor Dappa. <laughing Your obvious suffering from the Dumbing Down of America has you reeling. Take a few deep breaths, stick your head down between your legs. Then, when you’re batter, I’ll send you the cash to go and see the movie. That’s right, cash for you and a date/friend to go and see it so you won’t stick your foot in your mouth again in front of all these fine people here.
Miles, Dappa was being sarcastic. Read some of his/her other posts. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Miles "Never Had A Taker Yet, Ignorance Apparently IS Bliss" Long [Things Michael Moore left out but could have easily included such as] Article VI of the Nuremberg Charter defines "Crimes Against Peace" as "planning, preparation, initiation or waging of war of aggression or war in violation of international treaties . . . or participation in a common plan or conspiracy . . . to wage an aggressive war." The Bush doctrine of "pre-emption" really had nothing to do with pre-empting an Iraqi attack on the U.S. It is simply the widely discredited Nazi doctrine of "preventive war" established by Hitler to claim the right to attack any country that may pose some possible threat at an unspecific time in the future. July 20th, 2004 12:52 pm Fahrenheit 911 is Fair and Balanced by Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman / Common Dreams We’ve come to expect poisonous and unbalanced attacks from the paid far right propagandists denouncing Michael Moore’s documentary "Fahrenheit 911." But more disturbing are the scolds from tepid moderate mainstream journalists who often fail to read their own newspapers. New York Times columnist Nicholas D. Kristof attacks the film because "Moore hints that the real reason Bush invaded Afghanistan was to give his cronies a chance to profit by building an oil pipeline there." Kristof attacks Moore for even raising this issue,. But he conveniently ignores volumes of information readily available to back up Moore’s claim. Perhaps Kristof, like President Bush, refuses to read. At least that would explain why he missed the raging international debate surrounding the Bush administration’s well-documented, then-secret oil negotiations with the Taliban in the summer of 2001. The book FORBIDDEN TRUTH: U.S.-TALIBAN SECRET OIL DIPLOMACY AND THE FAILED HUNT FOR BIN LADEN was an international bestseller. Written by French Intelligence experts Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasqui
Question:
Africa ’should not pay its debts’ A special adviser to the United Nations secretary general Kofi Annan has said African countries should refuse to repay their foreign debts. Mr Annan’s economic adviser Jeffrey Sachs first called on developed countries to cancel Africa’s debts. But failing that, he said Africa should ignore its $201bn (
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