Filed under: Activism
Question:
I was reading GA news and saw this article. I love this quote: "According to Burgoyne, although the complainer may have a picture of the aircraft, unless the Nnumber is clearly readable, the FAA will not take action. "The FAA told us if the N-numbers were bigger, it would help, so we asked them to make the N-numbers bigger," he said. "They only have to be three inches high in some cases. The FAA told us ‘we can’t do that. AOPA (the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association) would never let us do that.’ So that’s why we have taken this course of action through the petition process." http://www.generalaviationnews.com/editorial/articledetail.lasso?-tok… I didn’t realize that AOPA runs the FAA. Earl G
Response:
I didn’t realize that AOPA runs the FAA.
If only. I think the Stop The Noise idiots are pretty funny. As if the bulk of their problem is with aircraft that have the smaller, grandfathered N numbers. For the vast majority of airplanes, 12-inch numbers are required, and if you can’t read the numbers on those airplanes, the airplane can’t possibly be close enough to be causing an actual problem (i.e. creating significant noise, never mind violating the FARs). I know, it’s not like the STN idiots care. But hopefully the FAA will recognize the foolishness of their petition. Actually, I’m hoping that the FAA will be so offended that STN misquoted them (I can’t imagine anyone at the FAA actually said what they claim the FAA said), that the FAA will just write them off completely. Pete
Response:
Blurry photos of airplanes is a tactic of our local anti-noise group, too. The first time they pulled out a stack of these photos in a public meeting, it was hard to stop laughing long enough to respond. And the reponse was "this is like taking pictures of cars to the police station, and demanding that they do something about the people using the same road over and over again. Do you have any idea how foolish you look?" Imagine that! Actual photographs of airplanes…legally flying! How disturbing! Rip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I didn’t realize that AOPA runs the FAA. If only. I think the Stop The Noise idiots are pretty funny. As if the bulk of their problem is with aircraft that have the smaller, grandfathered N numbers. For the vast majority of airplanes, 12-inch numbers are required, and if you can’t read the numbers on those airplanes, the airplane can’t possibly be close enough to be causing an actual problem (i.e. creating significant noise, never mind violating the FARs). I know, it’s not like the STN idiots care. But hopefully the FAA will recognize the foolishness of their petition. Actually, I’m hoping that the FAA will be so offended that STN misquoted them (I can’t imagine anyone at the FAA actually said what they claim the FAA said), that the FAA will just write them off completely. Pete
Response:
The reason they want the pics and positive ID is to file nuisance lawsuits against legally flying pilots for large sums just to harrass them.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Blurry photos of airplanes is a tactic of our local anti-noise group, too. The first time they pulled out a stack of these photos in a public meeting, it was hard to stop laughing long enough to respond. And the reponse was "this is like taking pictures of cars to the police station, and demanding that they do something about the people using the same road over and over again. Do you have any idea how foolish you look?" Imagine that! Actual photographs of airplanes…legally flying! How disturbing! Rip I didn’t realize that AOPA runs the FAA. If only. I think the Stop The Noise idiots are pretty funny. As if the bulk of their problem is with aircraft that have the smaller, grandfathered N numbers. For the vast majority of airplanes, 12-inch numbers are required, and if you can’t read the numbers on those airplanes, the airplane can’t possibly be close enough to be causing an actual problem (i.e. creating significant noise, never mind violating the FARs). I know, it’s not like the STN idiots care. But hopefully the FAA will recognize the foolishness of their petition. Actually, I’m hoping that the FAA will be so offended that STN misquoted them (I can’t imagine anyone at the FAA actually said what they claim the FAA said), that the FAA will just write them off completely. Pete
Response:
I think the Stop The Noise idiots are pretty funny.
There’s nothing funny about people who use the civil courts to attack law-abiding citizens. George Patterson This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to play "Your cheatin’ heart", and the bride just requested "Don’t come home a’drinkin’ with lovin’ on your mind".
Response:
There’s nothing funny about people who use the civil courts to attack law-abiding citizens.
Nothing? Nothing at all? I beg to differ. I don’t approve of their tactics, of course, and it’s offensive for them to abuse the legal system in any way. But to say there’s NOTHING funny about the situation? Come on…how can you not be amused at so much stupidity collected in such a small space? You could really use a lighter view of the world. You might get a chuckle once in a while. Pete
Response:
There’s nothing funny about people who use the civil courts to attack law-abiding citizens. Nothing? Nothing at all? I beg to differ. I don’t approve of their tactics, of course, and it’s offensive for them to abuse the legal system in any way. But to say there’s NOTHING funny about the situation? Come on…how can you not be amused at so much stupidity collected in such a small space?
such stupidity is sad. such stupidity is disappointing. such stupidity is offensive. A little stupidity can be amusing, but on the scale of those fools, it’s anything but funny. — Bob Noel
Response:
I think the Stop The Noise idiots are pretty funny.
Is your opinion the "Stop The Noise idiots" (sic) are completely insane and there is absolutely no validity to their complaint whatsoever?
Response:
Is your opinion the "Stop The Noise idiots" (sic) are completely insane and there is absolutely no validity to their complaint whatsoever?
I guess that depends on your definition of "validity". I don’t doubt that they are annoyed by airplane noise. I don’t doubt that they feel their rights are being infringed. However, I expect any person with a complaint to make an honest, reasonable effort to reach a fair compromise. As soon as they take a scorched Earth approach such as that being pursued by the "Stop The Noise idiots" (sic), I feel that they have no right to being considered at all. I do my very best to fly as quietly as possible. But the fact remains that powered aircraft consume a fair amount of energy, a lot of which is emitted as sound, and that’s just a fact of life. I have to put up with genuinely illegal sources of noise every single day (not having the luxury to live a hundred miles from my nearest neighbor), and so no, I’m not going to waste a huge amount of concern on some folks that object to perfectly legal and comparatively moderate levels of noise. I don’t see how the word "insane" comes into the picture. However, it’s clear that the "Stop The Noise idiots" (sic) are anti-social and have no respect for the right to the pursuit of happiness except for their own. These are people that I don’t feel deserve the time of day, never mind any consideration with respect to their complaints. Does that answer your question? Pete
Response:
I beg to differ.
You’re free to do so, of course, but I find no humor in the situation. George Patterson This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to play "Your cheatin’ heart", and the bride just requested "Don’t come home a’drinkin’ with lovin’ on your mind".
Response:
However, it’s clear that the "Stop The Noise idiots" (sic) are anti-social and have no respect for the right to the pursuit of happiness except for their own. These are people that I don’t feel deserve the time of day, never mind any consideration with respect to their complaints. Does that answer your question?
Yep. My concern is this kind of attitude is going to lead us to even more flight restrictions. In another thread discussing someone building an airstrip next to a possibly contentious neighbor, pilots overwhelmingly suggested negotiation. I’m just puzzled as to why it’s different here.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – However, it’s clear that the "Stop The Noise idiots" (sic) are anti-social and have no respect for the right to the pursuit of happiness except for their own. These are people that I don’t feel deserve the time of day, never mind any consideration with respect to their complaints. Does that answer your question? Yep. My concern is this kind of attitude is going to lead us to even more flight restrictions. In another thread discussing someone building an airstrip next to a possibly contentious neighbor, pilots overwhelmingly suggested negotiation. I’m just puzzled as to why it’s different here.
It is different, because we are dealing here with the environmental equivalent of the Taliban. They DO NOT WISH to negotiate or compromise! Just read their website and see. Also, those bringing the harassment suits are "not STN," but "individual persons who happen to be STN members." (plauaible deniability here)
Response:
I think the Stop The Noise idiots are pretty funny. Is your opinion the "Stop The Noise idiots" (sic) are completely insane and there is absolutely no validity to their complaint whatsoever?
I consider them idiots. I consider many of them unbalanced (read the alt.activism.noise.pollution group some time), some are fanatical, and I consider some of them dangerous. Some are to the point like the guy down south that took a few shots at the crop duster because the noise was bothering him while he watched the races. Certainly, *some* of them have valid complaints, but from what I’ve seen they are more of a problem than the noise in most instances. Unfortunately for us, the courts do listen to the lunatic fringe, particularly when they can afford lawyers, or lawyers see a cause to champion. OTOH the lunatic fringe can be sued for harassment if you can afford it and are willing to take the risk. We had a noise problem here and it was stirred up by a few agitators who had built new and expensive homes right off the south end of 18/36. One thing in our favor was a couple of the obnoxious ones got carried away and were making false complaints. At that point they lost credibility with the city. Now they could have sued at that point, but as they had already been put on record as making false complaints they would have had one strike against them. The second strike was the city over all is pretty much pro aviation. They do see how much the airport is bringing into the city while industry is leaving. The city commissioned a study as to how much the airport was costing and it turned out it was brining in a lot more money than any of us had thought. The opponents called the study biased and commissioned their own. The results were their study showed the airport bringing in about 50% more than did the one by the city. Fortunately it was the agitators who made the mistakes and the rest pretty much dropped the whole affair when the agitators gave up. They gave up, but we never want to count them out. Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member) (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair) www.rogerhalstead.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
Yep. My concern is this kind of attitude is going to lead us to even more flight restrictions.
Well, you and I can agree, I’m sure, that there are at least two philosophies when it comes to stuff like this. We saw the same division with respect to post-9/11 flight restrictions. There are those who feel that if we negotiate, even with fools, we’ll wind up with the worst-case outcome. Then there are those who feel that if we don’t resist as aggressively as possible at every step, we’ll wind up with the worst-case outcome. I personally like to feel that I fall somewhere in the middle. I don’t think it makes sense to just dig in our heels and pretend we should be permitted to just keep on as we’ve always done. But at the same time, why waste effort pretending that people like the STN idiots even come close to having a point? I haven’t been following AOPA’s involvement, but personally it seems to me that AOPA ought to take this up as an example case, defend the pilots vigorously, and countersue for all legal fees and other associated costs. When AOPA wins, it will make other similar groups think twice before making unreasonable demands. Like I said, I do my best to fly quietly. But only inasmuch as it doesn’t affect my safety and my right to exercise my legal privileges as a pilot. I’m more than happy to discuss with someone else their concerns if they feel there’s room for improvement, but I will not tolerate someone who has made it clear from the outset that they don’t understand aviation, and want it destroyed altogether. I believe most other pilots are similarly interested in neighborly flying. One thing I don’t understand is some otherwise careful and considerate pilots’ hesitance to get involved when they see another pilot flying in an illegal or unneighborly fashion. Frankly, it’s those handful of irresponsible pilots that are going to do us all in, and if we don’t clean house, I’m sure someone else (like STN) will be happy to do it for us. We could make some progress in not encouraging groups like STN to be created in the first place if we’d just do a better job of policing our own. In another thread discussing someone building an airstrip next to a possibly contentious neighbor, pilots overwhelmingly suggested negotiation. I’m just puzzled as to why it’s different here.
IMHO, it’s different because of the degree of hostility expressed by the neighbor. We’ve actually had at least two "neighbor to an airstrip under construction" threads here, and I wouldn’t say that in either case, the person posting exhibited a strong pro-aviation attitude. In the Idaho case, the guy was downright stubborn, and I don’t think he ever really understood what we were trying to tell him. But even in that case, he wasn’t calling for an end to aviation, or even to block his neighbor’s right to an airstrip (though, I admit he may take that tack later…he wasn’t doing it here though). Pete
Response:
Certainly, *some* of them have valid complaints, but from what I’ve seen they are more of a problem than the noise in most instances.
As I’ve mentioned before, I have an instructor/friend lives within the "box," and he finds the noise really bad. As a long-time pilot and a bit of a libertarian he wouldn’t dream of joining Stop, but I suspect his sympathies are with them, at least during the summer months. all the best — Dan Ford The Warbird’s Forum www.warbirdforum.com The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org
Response:
As I’ve mentioned before, I have an instructor/friend lives within the "box," and he finds the noise really bad.
I’m not aware of anyone saying that there’s no room for improvement in the noise situation. But, my understanding is that to some extent, the noise problem exists because the pilots needing to practice have not been granted enough variety of locations to practice. Furthermore, the STN idiots aren’t just calling for some reasonable compromise; they are looking to eliminate general aviation altogether. As a long-time pilot and a bit of a libertarian he wouldn’t dream of joining Stop, but I suspect his sympathies are with them, at least during the summer months.
My sympathies are with anyone who is bothered by the noise, and who is interested in pursuing reasonable solutions that provide for an outcome that benefits everyone involved. I don’t care how much noise occurs above me, my sympathies would NEVER be with the STN idiots. I can’t see why your friend’s would be either. They are not a sympathetic group of people. Pete
Response:
I think the Stop The Noise idiots are pretty funny. Is your opinion the "Stop The Noise idiots" (sic) are completely insane and there is absolutely no validity to their complaint whatsoever?
Yes there is noise there… But we’re also talking about a group that slants things WAY TOO FAR. In other words, they registered a complaint with the FAA (Correrct action as far as I’m concerned). The FAA investigated, and watched furter flights being flown "in the box". When the FAA approached the group & told then there was no infringement, they went beserk. They started claiming that their property was from the ground to infinity in the sky. (Can’t wait to see that tax bill:) ). Then they say taht the FAA is in cahoots with teh pilots, and wouldn’t turn them in even if they were wrong…haha Bottom line…their assholes with money. Who would’ve thought that if you move to one of the most populated areas in New England there would be people that make noise ????? btw… they also want to outlaw weed whackers & lawn mowers because they make noise too……. Will there president trade in his Mercedes for a goat?????? Don Paquette PP-ASEL N9723X
Response:
The pilots on the dirty end of the STN stick *have* negotiated. They have been trying for *years* to come up with a compromise to this situation. In fact, they thought they had one and were blindsided by the latest suit filed by the STN people. The people are just plain nuts. Dave Reinhart – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – However, it’s clear that the "Stop The Noise idiots" (sic) are anti-social and have no respect for the right to the pursuit of happiness except for their own. These are people that I don’t feel deserve the time of day, never mind any consideration with respect to their complaints. Does that answer your question? Yep. My concern is this kind of attitude is going to lead us to even more flight restrictions. In another thread discussing someone building an airstrip next to a possibly contentious neighbor, pilots overwhelmingly suggested negotiation. I’m just puzzled as to why it’s different here.
Response:
Pete What ever happened to that guy up north? Did he finally go to his neighbor and find out what was planned and try to workout a compromise? Big John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yep. My concern is this kind of attitude is going to lead us to even more flight restrictions. Well, you and I can agree, I’m sure, that there are at least two philosophies when it comes to stuff like this. We saw the same division with respect to post-9/11 flight restrictions. There are those who feel that if we negotiate, even with fools, we’ll wind up with the worst-case outcome. Then there are those who feel that if we don’t resist as aggressively as possible at every step, we’ll wind up with the worst-case outcome. I personally like to feel that I fall somewhere in the middle. I don’t think it makes sense to just dig in our heels and pretend we should be permitted to just keep on as we’ve always done. But at the same time, why waste effort pretending that people like the STN idiots even come close to having a point? I haven’t been following AOPA’s involvement, but personally it seems to me that AOPA ought to take this up as an example case, defend the pilots vigorously, and countersue for all legal fees and other associated costs. When AOPA wins, it will make other similar groups think twice before making unreasonable demands. Like I said, I do my best to fly quietly. But only inasmuch as it doesn’t affect my safety and my right to exercise my legal privileges as a pilot. I’m more than happy to discuss with someone else their concerns if they feel there’s room for improvement, but I will not tolerate someone who has made it clear from the outset that they don’t understand aviation, and want it destroyed altogether. I believe most other pilots are similarly interested in neighborly flying. One thing I don’t understand is some otherwise careful and considerate pilots’ hesitance to get involved when they see another pilot flying in an illegal or unneighborly fashion. Frankly, it’s those handful of irresponsible pilots that are going to do us all in, and if we don’t clean house, I’m sure someone else (like STN) will be happy to do it for us. We could make some progress in not encouraging groups like STN to be created in the first place if we’d just do a better job of policing our own. In another thread discussing someone building an airstrip next to a possibly contentious neighbor, pilots overwhelmingly suggested negotiation. I’m just puzzled as to why it’s different here. IMHO, it’s different because of the degree of hostility expressed by the neighbor. We’ve actually had at least two "neighbor to an airstrip under construction" threads here, and I wouldn’t say that in either case, the person posting exhibited a strong pro-aviation attitude. In the Idaho case, the guy was downright stubborn, and I don’t think he ever really understood what we were trying to tell him. But even in that case, he wasn’t calling for an end to aviation, or even to block his neighbor’s right to an airstrip (though, I admit he may take that tack later…he wasn’t doing it here though). Pete
Response:
What ever happened to that guy up north? Did he finally go to his neighbor and find out what was planned and try to workout a compromise?
I have no idea. My only involvement was the thread he posted here. Unless he comes back to tell us the outcome, I guess we’ll never know. Pete
Response:
Question:
hi all, i’ve been sick or a while, so i’m trying to get back to ppl i owe email to. and that’s pretty much everyone. 
that acknowledged, i’m trying to work something out in my head below, but if anyone has any useful advice – feel free. *spoiler for teen pregnancy issues* *frank talk of coersion and ab’rt’n follows* if i could save time in a bottle… (i’m tired, pls excuse how choppy this is. i can’t get it to sound correct. sorry.) ok, continuing the story i seem to be relaying here lately: a young aquaintance of ours is preg, and in some other difficult situations. the new twist is that she’s being pressured to become un-pregnant by a lot of ppl she cares about: including the boy and his family, who were initially supportive of the pregnancy. she is also being pressured to stay pregnant by others: including her aunt (who wants to raise the baby as a foster child) and her mom who has threatened to kick her out of the house if she doesn’t have the baby. being kicked out might not be the worst thing in the world for her, but it wouldn’t be great either. there are so many considerations to everything, you know? school, friends, family, life, baby, future…. 
but none of these decisions are mine to make for her. to that end: she may be coming to our house for a few days as a kind of respite and free space to think; to consider whether she will keep the baby or not. i’m not sure if this will actually happen. i have heard that even her mother, who dislikes me intensely, wants her to come. desperate times, i guess. i did not push to make this happen. this is kind of out of left field from my pov, because i didn’t know about the twist until today. i’m ok with her coming — more than ok, even, i want her to have some space — but it will be a bit difficult on my end. i’m glad to do it though; i don’t begrudge her any help i might have to offer as it’s been precious little i’ve been able to help in the grand scheme of things. she’s a really good kid who has overcome a lot. i have simply made it known for a long time, far before this, that if she ever needed a place to escape to, my place was available for short times. those of you who know us, know what we would want for her. and those of you who know us well, know that whatever she chooses, we will still be in her corner – for her sake and because she is important. i guess i’m just thinking that her family knows what i believe, and wonder if i’m not somehow expected to be a part of that coercion. i won’t be. if she asks what i think, i’ll let her know gently, but she doesn’t have to ask to know. if she just wants to talk, i’ll listen. if she just needs space, space she will have. she is being pulled in so many directions at once, i can’t even imagine. give me your baby, don’t have the baby, if you don’t have the baby you have nowhere to live. i ish i had a magic peace to grant her. the best i have is a room, a lot of books, a bike and a beach. hopefully, that will be enough. thanks if you read this. i don’t really need any responses. i feel like writing this has helped *me* enough. if you can think of anything for her, pass it on. RI resources welcomed. take great care. peace from our pieces, embies Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth Boorstin — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi
Response:
I’ll just say, I did read this, and wotta mess! As far as suggestions, I can only echo Polonius – "To thine own self be true." With all the pull in every possible direction, she should keep in mind that she herself is the one she will have to deal with in the long term, and so her decision needs to be based on her own heart and conscience – not whatever she is pressured with, and worse yet, threatened with, by others.
| hi all, | | i’ve been sick or a while, so i’m trying to get back to ppl i owe email | to. and that’s pretty much everyone. | | that acknowledged, i’m trying to work something out in my head below, | but if anyone has any useful advice – feel free. | | *spoiler for teen pregnancy issues* | | *frank talk of coersion and ab’rt’n follows* | | | if | | i | | could | | save | | time | | in | | a | | bottle… | | (i’m tired, pls excuse how choppy this is. i can’t get it to sound correct. | sorry.) | | ok, continuing the story i seem to be relaying here lately: a young | aquaintance of ours is preg, and in some other difficult situations. | the new twist is that she’s being pressured to become un-pregnant by a | lot of ppl she cares about: including the boy and his family, who were | initially supportive of the pregnancy. she is also being pressured to | stay pregnant by others: including her aunt (who wants to raise the baby | as a foster child) and her mom who has threatened to kick her out of the | house if she doesn’t have the baby. being kicked out might not be the | worst thing in the world for her, but it wouldn’t be great either. | there are so many considerations to everything, you know? school, | friends, family, life, baby, future…. but none of these decisions | are mine to make for her. | | to that end: she may be coming to our house for a few days as a kind of | respite and free space to think; to consider whether she will keep the | baby or not. i’m not sure if this will actually happen. i have heard | that even her mother, who dislikes me intensely, wants her to come. | desperate times, i guess. | | i did not push to make this happen. this is kind of out of left field | from my pov, because i didn’t know about the twist until today. i’m ok | with her coming — more than ok, even, i want her to have some space — | but it will be a bit difficult on my end. i’m glad to do it though; i | don’t begrudge her any help i might have to offer as it’s been precious | little i’ve been able to help in the grand scheme of things. she’s a | really good kid who has overcome a lot. i have simply made it known for | a long time, far before this, that if she ever needed a place to escape | to, my place was available for short times. | | those of you who know us, know what we would want for her. and those of | you who know us well, know that whatever she chooses, we will still be | in her corner – for her sake and because she is important. | | i guess i’m just thinking that her family knows what i believe, and | wonder if i’m not somehow expected to be a part of that coercion. i | won’t be. if she asks what i think, i’ll let her know gently, but she | doesn’t have to ask to know. if she just wants to talk, i’ll listen. | if she just needs space, space she will have. | | she is being pulled in so many directions at once, i can’t even imagine. | give me your baby, don’t have the baby, if you don’t have the baby you | have nowhere to live. i ish i had a magic peace to grant her. the | best i have is a room, a lot of books, a bike and a beach. hopefully, | that will be enough. | | thanks if you read this. i don’t really need any responses. i feel | like writing this has helped *me* enough. if you can think of anything | for her, pass it on. RI resources welcomed. | | take great care. | | peace from our pieces, embies | | | Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth | Boorstin | | | | | | — | For more information about this posting service, contact: | If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: | | https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi
Response:
Hi embie…..See below… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -hi all, i’ve been sick or a while, so i’m trying to get back to ppl i owe email to. and that’s pretty much everyone. that acknowledged, i’m trying to work something out in my head below, but if anyone has any useful advice – feel free. *spoiler for teen pregnancy issues* *frank talk of coersion and ab’rt’n follows* if i could save time in a bottle… (i’m tired, pls excuse how choppy this is. i can’t get it to sound correct. sorry.) ok, continuing the story i seem to be relaying here lately: a young aquaintance of ours is preg, and in some other difficult situations. the new twist is that she’s being pressured to become un-pregnant by a lot of ppl she cares about: including the boy and his family, who were initially supportive of the pregnancy. she is also being pressured to stay pregnant by others: including her aunt (who wants to raise the baby as a foster child) and her mom who has threatened to kick her out of the house if she doesn’t have the baby. being kicked out might not be the worst thing in the world for her, but it wouldn’t be great either. there are so many considerations to everything, you know? school, friends, family, life, baby, future…. but none of these decisions are mine to make for her. to that end: she may be coming to our house for a few days as a kind of respite and free space to think; to consider whether she will keep the baby or not. i’m not sure if this will actually happen. i have heard that even her mother, who dislikes me intensely, wants her to come. desperate times, i guess. i did not push to make this happen. this is kind of out of left field from my pov, because i didn’t know about the twist until today. i’m ok with her coming — more than ok, even, i want her to have some space — but it will be a bit difficult on my end. i’m glad to do it though; i don’t begrudge her any help i might have to offer as it’s been precious little i’ve been able to help in the grand scheme of things. she’s a really good kid who has overcome a lot. i have simply made it known for a long time, far before this, that if she ever needed a place to escape to, my place was available for short times. those of you who know us, know what we would want for her. and those of you who know us well, know that whatever she chooses, we will still be in her corner – for her sake and because she is important. i guess i’m just thinking that her family knows what i believe, and wonder if i’m not somehow expected to be a part of that coercion. i won’t be. if she asks what i think, i’ll let her know gently, but she doesn’t have to ask to know. if she just wants to talk, i’ll listen. if she just needs space, space she will have. she is being pulled in so many directions at once, i can’t even imagine. give me your baby, don’t have the baby, if you don’t have the baby you have nowhere to live. i ish i had a magic peace to grant her. the best i have is a room, a lot of books, a bike and a beach. hopefully, that will be enough. thanks if you read this. i don’t really need any responses. i feel like writing this has helped *me* enough. if you can think of anything for her, pass it on. RI resources welcomed. take great care. peace from our pieces, embies Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth Boorstin
Hi :O)……I worked for almost 20 years at Preterm and then Planned Parenthood in the Boston area. At both clinics we offered pregnancy counseling. It’s so important for the young woman to decide what _she_ wants to do about her pregnancy and not be coerced by family or partner. If it was determined that the young woman did NOT want to end her pregnancy we helped her find the most comfortable solution…ie adoption, keeping the baby, etc. I haven’t worked there in about 4 years, maybe it might be a good idea to call and check out if they still offer pregnancy counseling. hth Nahanton
Response:
Hi embie…..See below…
hi Nahanton, thanks, i will. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi all, i’ve been sick or a while, so i’m trying to get back to ppl i owe email to. and that’s pretty much everyone. that acknowledged, i’m trying to work something out in my head below, but if anyone has any useful advice – feel free. *spoiler for teen pregnancy issues* *frank talk of coersion and ab’rt’n follows* if i could save time in a bottle… (i’m tired, pls excuse how choppy this is. i can’t get it to sound correct. sorry.) ok, continuing the story i seem to be relaying here lately: a young aquaintance of ours is preg, and in some other difficult situations. the new twist is that she’s being pressured to become un-pregnant by a lot of ppl she cares about: including the boy and his family, who were initially supportive of the pregnancy. she is also being pressured to stay pregnant by others: including her aunt (who wants to raise the baby as a foster child) and her mom who has threatened to kick her out of the house if she doesn’t have the baby. being kicked out might not be the worst thing in the world for her, but it wouldn’t be great either. there are so many considerations to everything, you know? school, friends, family, life, baby, future…. but none of these decisions are mine to make for her. to that end: she may be coming to our house for a few days as a kind of respite and free space to think; to consider whether she will keep the baby or not. i’m not sure if this will actually happen. i have heard that even her mother, who dislikes me intensely, wants her to come. desperate times, i guess. i did not push to make this happen. this is kind of out of left field from my pov, because i didn’t know about the twist until today. i’m ok with her coming — more than ok, even, i want her to have some space — but it will be a bit difficult on my end. i’m glad to do it though; i don’t begrudge her any help i might have to offer as it’s been precious little i’ve been able to help in the grand scheme of things. she’s a really good kid who has overcome a lot. i have simply made it known for a long time, far before this, that if she ever needed a place to escape to, my place was available for short times. those of you who know us, know what we would want for her. and those of you who know us well, know that whatever she chooses, we will still be in her corner – for her sake and because she is important. i guess i’m just thinking that her family knows what i believe, and wonder if i’m not somehow expected to be a part of that coercion. i won’t be. if she asks what i think, i’ll let her know gently, but she doesn’t have to ask to know. if she just wants to talk, i’ll listen. if she just needs space, space she will have. she is being pulled in so many directions at once, i can’t even imagine. give me your baby, don’t have the baby, if you don’t have the baby you have nowhere to live. i ish i had a magic peace to grant her. the best i have is a room, a lot of books, a bike and a beach. hopefully, that will be enough. thanks if you read this. i don’t really need any responses. i feel like writing this has helped *me* enough. if you can think of anything for her, pass it on. RI resources welcomed. take great care. peace from our pieces, embies Hi :O)……I worked for almost 20 years at Preterm and then Planned Parenthood in the Boston area. At both clinics we offered pregnancy counseling. It’s so important for the young woman to decide what _she_ wants to do about her pregnancy and not be coerced by family or partner. If it was determined that the young woman did NOT want to end her pregnancy we helped her find the most comfortable solution…ie adoption, keeping the baby, etc. I haven’t worked there in about 4 years, maybe it might be a good idea to call and check out if they still offer pregnancy counseling. hth Nahanton
it helps a lot, Nahanton, i wondered about that, but the planned parenthood stuff that was up at the site these days for teens seemed geared more toward activism so i was a bit worried. do you know if the different clinics counsel ppl outside their catchment area? do you know if they charge $ or need a parent’s permission for counseling? i found the site for RI, but it is very vague and i don’t really know what to ask. it’s ok if you don’t have all of the answers, if they aren’t willing to talk to me and help, then i would have an idea of how that particular office is. thank you, embies Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth Boorstin — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi
Response:
all’s well, we hope. zoo season’s coming up. <wg I’ll just say, I did read this, and wotta mess!
i agree, it’s not pretty. there are a few redeeming things that i did overlook in our little note of gloom, and that is that the teen has a beautiful and generous heart. she also has a few sane relatives, though none of the sane ones are in a position to take her in or in any way "rescue" her — not that rescuing is the ultimate solution anyway, but taking her in might have been useful. As far as suggestions, I can only echo Polonius – "To thine own self be true." With all the pull in every possible direction, she should keep in mind that she herself is the one she will have to deal with in the long term, and so her decision needs to be based on her own heart and conscience – not whatever she is pressured with, and worse yet, threatened with, by others.
yes, in the end the decision is going to be all about her, or at least it should be. what i’m most afraid of is that it won’t be. that’s the point of her coming here — to clear her head; she needs to find out what she really needs/wants/believes/hopes for. she needs a respite from all the pulling and tugging. i don’t want to influence her to do anything but what is best for her. i just want to be able to understand and have my thoughts gathered about me. it’s been a long time in my mind since i’ve been in counsel with teens (though not so long in years) and i want to be able to answer if she asks, and leave her be if she has nothing she needs. thanks for the help and support. take great care of you and yours. embies – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi all, i’ve been sick or a while, so i’m trying to get back to ppl i owe email to. and that’s pretty much everyone. that acknowledged, i’m trying to work something out in my head below, but if anyone has any useful advice – feel free. *spoiler for teen pregnancy issues* *frank talk of coersion and ab’rt’n follows* if i could save time in a bottle… (i’m tired, pls excuse how choppy this is. i can’t get it to sound correct. sorry.) ok, continuing the story i seem to be relaying here lately: a young aquaintance of ours is preg, and in some other difficult situations. the new twist is that she’s being pressured to become un-pregnant by a lot of ppl she cares about: including the boy and his family, who were initially supportive of the pregnancy. she is also being pressured to stay pregnant by others: including her aunt (who wants to raise the baby as a foster child) and her mom who has threatened to kick her out of the house if she doesn’t have the baby. being kicked out might not be the worst thing in the world for her, but it wouldn’t be great either. there are so many considerations to everything, you know? school, friends, family, life, baby, future…. but none of these decisions are mine to make for her. to that end: she may be coming to our house for a few days as a kind of respite and free space to think; to consider whether she will keep the baby or not. i’m not sure if this will actually happen. i have heard that even her mother, who dislikes me intensely, wants her to come. desperate times, i guess. i did not push to make this happen. this is kind of out of left field from my pov, because i didn’t know about the twist until today. i’m ok with her coming — more than ok, even, i want her to have some space — but it will be a bit difficult on my end. i’m glad to do it though; i don’t begrudge her any help i might have to offer as it’s been precious little i’ve been able to help in the grand scheme of things. she’s a really good kid who has overcome a lot. i have simply made it known for a long time, far before this, that if she ever needed a place to escape to, my place was available for short times. those of you who know us, know what we would want for her. and those of you who know us well, know that whatever she chooses, we will still be in her corner – for her sake and because she is important. i guess i’m just thinking that her family knows what i believe, and wonder if i’m not somehow expected to be a part of that coercion. i won’t be. if she asks what i think, i’ll let her know gently, but she doesn’t have to ask to know. if she just wants to talk, i’ll listen. if she just needs space, space she will have. she is being pulled in so many directions at once, i can’t even imagine. give me your baby, don’t have the baby, if you don’t have the baby you have nowhere to live. i ish i had a magic peace to grant her. the best i have is a room, a lot of books, a bike and a beach. hopefully, that will be enough. thanks if you read this. i don’t really need any responses. i feel like writing this has helped *me* enough. if you can think of anything for her, pass it on. RI resources welcomed. take great care. peace from our pieces, embies Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth Boorstin
[snip] Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth Boorstin — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi
Response:
Hi embie…..See below…
see below still….. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi all, i’ve been sick or a while, so i’m trying to get back to ppl i owe email to. and that’s pretty much everyone. that acknowledged, i’m trying to work something out in my head below, but if anyone has any useful advice – feel free. *spoiler for teen pregnancy issues* *frank talk of coersion and ab’rt’n follows* if i could save time in a bottle… (i’m tired, pls excuse how choppy this is. i can’t get it to sound correct. sorry.) Hi :O)……I worked for almost 20 years at Preterm and then Planned Parenthood in the Boston area. At both clinics we offered pregnancy counseling. It’s so important for the young woman to decide what _she_ wants to do about her pregnancy and not be coerced by family or partner. If it was determined that the young woman did NOT want to end her pregnancy we helped her find the most comfortable solution…ie adoption, keeping the baby, etc. I haven’t worked there in about 4 years, maybe it might be a good idea to call and check out if they still offer pregnancy counseling. hth Nahanton
I think the above is very sound advice. Your friend needs someone who is not bias in any way so that she can clear her mind and do that which is right for her baby and herself. I became pregnant at 16 and had the option to abort. But that wasn’t a choice for me even back in 1967. The results? I have the "bestest" son in the whole wide world that I’m soooo proud of. praying this all works out the way it was meant to for both the baby and the mother. Donna
Response:
Hi embie…..See below… see below still…..
hi Donna, will meet you down there! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi all, i’ve been sick or a while, so i’m trying to get back to ppl i owe email to. and that’s pretty much everyone. that acknowledged, i’m trying to work something out in my head below, but if anyone has any useful advice – feel free. *spoiler for teen pregnancy issues* *frank talk of coersion and ab’rt’n follows* if i could save time in a bottle… (i’m tired, pls excuse how choppy this is. i can’t get it to sound correct. sorry.) Hi :O)……I worked for almost 20 years at Preterm and then Planned Parenthood in the Boston area. At both clinics we offered pregnancy counseling. It’s so important for the young woman to decide what _she_ wants to do about her pregnancy and not be coerced by family or partner. If it was determined that the young woman did NOT want to end her pregnancy we helped her find the most comfortable solution…ie adoption, keeping the baby, etc. I haven’t worked there in about 4 years, maybe it might be a good idea to call and check out if they still offer pregnancy counseling. hth Nahanton I think the above is very sound advice. Your friend needs someone who is not bias in any way so that she can clear her mind and do that which is right for her baby and herself.
i certainly hope that i am up to the challenge, but yes, that’s my goal. i feel underqualified at the moment, but slowly my mind is getting into that gear where i hope to be able to operate. I became pregnant at 16 and had the option to abort. But that wasn’t a choice for me even back in 1967. The results? I have the "bestest" son in the whole wide world that I’m soooo proud of.
i’m so glad for you, and for your son. praying this all works out the way it was meant to for both the baby and the mother.
you and me both. thank you, Donna. peace from our pieces, embies Donna
Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth Boorstin — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi
Response:
Hi embies….. I haven’t worked at Planned Parenthood for about 4 years, but when I did, it didn’t matter where folks came from for counseling. There was a fee, but it was nominal. They also take Medicaid. Minors do _not_ need parental permission for counseling. If the young woman decides to terminate, and she’s a minor, she can get consent from a judge if he/she deems her mature and competent to make a decision. The ppl at the clinic will help with this too. I’m sure that if you call the clinic in RI they’ll give you the up to date information regarding this stuff. The telephone counselors are ‘usually’ very kind and informative. Nahanton – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi embie…..See below… hi Nahanton, thanks, i will. hi all, i’ve been sick or a while, so i’m trying to get back to ppl i owe email to. and that’s pretty much everyone. that acknowledged, i’m trying to work something out in my head below, but if anyone has any useful advice – feel free. *spoiler for teen pregnancy issues* *frank talk of coersion and ab’rt’n follows* if i could save time in a bottle… (i’m tired, pls excuse how choppy this is. i can’t get it to sound correct. sorry.) ok, continuing the story i seem to be relaying here lately: a young aquaintance of ours is preg, and in some other difficult situations. the new twist is that she’s being pressured to become un-pregnant by a lot of ppl she cares about: including the boy and his family, who were initially supportive of the pregnancy. she is also being pressured to stay pregnant by others: including her aunt (who wants to raise the baby as a foster child) and her mom who has threatened to kick her out of the house if she doesn’t have the baby. being kicked out might not be the worst thing in the world for her, but it wouldn’t be great either. there are so many considerations to everything, you know? school, friends, family, life, baby, future…. but none of these decisions are mine to make for her. to that end: she may be coming to our house for a few days as a kind of respite and free space to think; to consider whether she will keep the baby or not. i’m not sure if this will actually happen. i have heard that even her mother, who dislikes me intensely, wants her to come. desperate times, i guess. i did not push to make this happen. this is kind of out of left field from my pov, because i didn’t know about the twist until today. i’m ok with her coming — more than ok, even, i want her to have some space — but it will be a bit difficult on my end. i’m glad to do it though; i don’t begrudge her any help i might have to offer as it’s been precious little i’ve been able to help in the grand scheme of things. she’s a really good kid who has overcome a lot. i have simply made it known for a long time, far before this, that if she ever needed a place to escape to, my place was available for short times. those of you who know us, know what we would want for her. and those of you who know us well, know that whatever she chooses, we will still be in her corner – for her sake and because she is important. i guess i’m just thinking that her family knows what i believe, and wonder if i’m not somehow expected to be a part of that coercion. i won’t be. if she asks what i think, i’ll let her know gently, but she doesn’t have to ask to know. if she just wants to talk, i’ll listen. if she just needs space, space she will have. she is being pulled in so many directions at once, i can’t even imagine. give me your baby, don’t have the baby, if you don’t have the baby you have nowhere to live. i ish i had a magic peace to grant her. the best i have is a room, a lot of books, a bike and a beach. hopefully, that will be enough. thanks if you read this. i don’t really need any responses. i feel like writing this has helped *me* enough. if you can think of anything for her, pass it on. RI resources welcomed. take great care. peace from our pieces, embies Hi :O)……I worked for almost 20 years at Preterm and then Planned Parenthood in the Boston area. At both clinics we offered pregnancy counseling. It’s so important for the young woman to decide what _she_ wants to do about her pregnancy and not be coerced by family or partner. If it was determined that the young woman did NOT want to end her pregnancy we helped her find the most comfortable solution…ie adoption, keeping the baby, etc. I haven’t worked there in about 4 years, maybe it might be a good idea to call and check out if they still offer pregnancy counseling. hth Nahanton it helps a lot, Nahanton, i wondered about that, but the planned parenthood stuff that was up at the site these days for teens seemed geared more toward activism so i was a bit worried. do you know if the different clinics counsel ppl outside their catchment area? do you know if they charge $ or need a parent’s permission for counseling? i found the site for RI, but it is very vague and i don’t really know what to ask. it’s ok if you don’t have all of the answers, if they aren’t willing to talk to me and help, then i would have an idea of how that particular office is. thank you, embies Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth Boorstin
Response:
Oh, embies. You are such a gentle soul and generous person. Yes, we know the things about you. And we think it will be very hard in some or many ways for her to be there – and we think that what you say is what she needs: the space to be safe, to talk through things, to have someone listen. I wish life were easy. Oh, how it isn’t. I send what I have to send – you know what it is. Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi all, i’ve been sick or a while, so i’m trying to get back to ppl i owe email to. and that’s pretty much everyone. that acknowledged, i’m trying to work something out in my head below, but if anyone has any useful advice – feel free. *spoiler for teen pregnancy issues* *frank talk of coersion and ab’rt’n follows* if i could save time in a bottle… (i’m tired, pls excuse how choppy this is. i can’t get it to sound correct. sorry.) ok, continuing the story i seem to be relaying here lately: a young aquaintance of ours is preg, and in some other difficult situations. the new twist is that she’s being pressured to become un-pregnant by a lot of ppl she cares about: including the boy and his family, who were initially supportive of the pregnancy. she is also being pressured to stay pregnant by others: including her aunt (who wants to raise the baby as a foster child) and her mom who has threatened to kick her out of the house if she doesn’t have the baby. being kicked out might not be the worst thing in the world for her, but it wouldn’t be great either. there are so many considerations to everything, you know? school, friends, family, life, baby, future…. but none of these decisions are mine to make for her. to that end: she may be coming to our house for a few days as a kind of respite and free space to think; to consider whether she will keep the baby or not. i’m not sure if this will actually happen. i have heard that even her mother, who dislikes me intensely, wants her to come. desperate times, i guess. i did not push to make this happen. this is kind of out of left field from my pov, because i didn’t know about the twist until today. i’m ok with her coming — more than ok, even, i want her to have some space — but it will be a bit difficult on my end. i’m glad to do it though; i don’t begrudge her any help i might have to offer as it’s been precious little i’ve been able to help in the grand scheme of things. she’s a really good kid who has overcome a lot. i have simply made it known for a long time, far before this, that if she ever needed a place to escape to, my place was available for short times. those of you who know us, know what we would want for her. and those of you who know us well, know that whatever she chooses, we will still be in her corner – for her sake and because she is important. i guess i’m just thinking that her family knows what i believe, and wonder if i’m not somehow expected to be a part of that coercion. i won’t be. if she asks what i think, i’ll let her know gently, but she doesn’t have to ask to know. if she just wants to talk, i’ll listen. if she just needs space, space she will have. she is being pulled in so many directions at once, i can’t even imagine. give me your baby, don’t have the baby, if you don’t have the baby you have nowhere to live. i ish i had a magic peace to grant her. the best i have is a room, a lot of books, a bike and a beach. hopefully, that will be enough. thanks if you read this. i don’t really need any responses. i feel like writing this has helped *me* enough. if you can think of anything for her, pass it on. RI resources welcomed. take great care. peace from our pieces, embies Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth Boorstin — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi
Response:
Although it must have been so hard, thank you for sharing the sweetness w/us. Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi embie…..See below… see below still….. hi all, i’ve been sick or a while, so i’m trying to get back to ppl i owe email to. and that’s pretty much everyone. that acknowledged, i’m trying to work something out in my head below, but if anyone has any useful advice – feel free. *spoiler for teen pregnancy issues* *frank talk of coersion and ab’rt’n follows* if i could save time in a bottle… (i’m tired, pls excuse how choppy this is. i can’t get it to sound correct. sorry.) Hi :O)……I worked for almost 20 years at Preterm and then Planned Parenthood in the Boston area. At both clinics we offered pregnancy counseling. It’s so important for the young woman to decide what _she_ wants to do about her pregnancy and not be coerced by family or partner. If it was determined that the young woman did NOT want to end her pregnancy we helped her find the most comfortable solution…ie adoption, keeping the baby, etc. I haven’t worked there in about 4 years, maybe it might be a good idea to call and check out if they still offer pregnancy counseling. hth Nahanton I think the above is very sound advice. Your friend needs someone who is not bias in any way so that she can clear her mind and do that which is right for her baby and herself. I became pregnant at 16 and had the option to abort. But that wasn’t a choice for me even back in 1967. The results? I have the "bestest" son in the whole wide world that I’m soooo proud of. praying this all works out the way it was meant to for both the baby and the mother. Donna
Response:
hi embies 
i might not be good advice, but i would like to tell you a story of a friend of mine when we were 16/17. in short, she got pregnant, her parents closed her in the house days and nights as soon as it started to be seen, i spend huge amount of time there, slept week ends with her until they move her in a place were young girls were having their babies – do not forget that i am 50 anyway she has a beautiful little girl. what happened is that as much as the parents didn’t wanted her to be seen being pregnant, they kept the little girl with them. my friend went back to school . in fact what happened is that the little girl called the mother of my friend mummy and the situation remains like that for several years. she got educated as if she was the little sister. i discussed it with my friend but she got upset so i stopped pointing this out. for my studies i worked in a kind of hotel with a nursery for young girl with their babies, i discuss the situation of my friend with the woman who was taking care of that place. i already had considered to offer my friend the possibility to live there with the other girls and her baby. in fact the woman from the place explained then to me that sometimes, when the pressure is strong on the shoulder of a daughter because of the attachment from the mother, having a child is a subconscious way to get her freedom and her life, it was as if she was giving her own mother her child as to be replaced . dunno if that make sense. but my friend studied and graduated with success and only almost 10 years later, she got involved with someone seriously and then decided to assume her own motherhood and took back her child with her and her husband. just to tell you that sometimes, life has strange ways to deal with stuff. i am sure you will listen carefully to her. be well and have a nice time with her phoenix exhausted: end of the week, sorry for being a bit confuse in my writing — . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi all, i’ve been sick or a while, so i’m trying to get back to ppl i owe email to. and that’s pretty much everyone. that acknowledged, i’m trying to work something out in my head below, but if anyone has any useful advice – feel free. *spoiler for teen pregnancy issues* *frank talk of coersion and ab’rt’n follows* if i could save time in a bottle… (i’m tired, pls excuse how choppy this is. i can’t get it to sound correct. sorry.) ok, continuing the story i seem to be relaying here lately: a young aquaintance of ours is preg, and in some other difficult situations. the new twist is that she’s being pressured to become un-pregnant by a lot of ppl she cares about: including the boy and his family, who were initially supportive of the pregnancy. she is also being pressured to stay pregnant by others: including her aunt (who wants to raise the baby as a foster child) and her mom who has threatened to kick her out of the house if she doesn’t have the baby. being kicked out might not be the worst thing in the world for her, but it wouldn’t be great either. there are so many considerations to everything, you know? school, friends, family, life, baby, future…. but none of these decisions are mine to make for her. to that end: she may be coming to our house for a few days as a kind of respite and free space to think; to consider whether she will keep the baby or not. i’m not sure if this will actually happen. i have heard that even her mother, who dislikes me intensely, wants her to come. desperate times, i guess. i did not push to make this happen. this is kind of out of left field from my pov, because i didn’t know about the twist until today. i’m ok with her coming — more than ok, even, i want her to have some space — but it will be a bit difficult on my end. i’m glad to do it though; i don’t begrudge her any help i might have to offer as it’s been precious little i’ve been able to help in the grand scheme of things. she’s a really good kid who has overcome a lot. i have simply made it known for a long time, far before this, that if she ever needed a place to escape to, my place was available for short times. those of you who know us, know what we would want for her. and those of you who know us well, know that whatever she chooses, we will still be in her corner – for her sake and because she is important. i guess i’m just thinking that her family knows what i believe, and wonder if i’m not somehow expected to be a part of that coercion. i won’t be. if she asks what i think, i’ll let her know gently, but she doesn’t have to ask to know. if she just wants to talk, i’ll listen. if she just needs space, space she will have. she is being pulled in so many directions at once, i can’t even imagine. give me your baby, don’t have the baby, if you don’t have the baby you have nowhere to live. i ish i had a magic peace to grant her. the best i have is a room, a lot of books, a bike and a beach. hopefully, that will be enough. thanks if you read this. i don’t really need any responses. i feel like writing this has helped *me* enough. if you can think of anything for her, pass it on. RI resources welcomed. take great care. peace from our pieces, embies Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth Boorstin — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi
Response:
Planned Parenthood is pretty good at giving unbiased information/suggestions/counseling/whatnot to people, imo. They are in your area (they are all over the US) and in the book (and probly the net:) Rainbow Colors (Jill) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi all, i’ve been sick or a while, so i’m trying to get back to ppl i owe email to. and that’s pretty much everyone. that acknowledged, i’m trying to work something out in my head below, but if anyone has any useful advice – feel free. *spoiler for teen pregnancy issues* *frank talk of coersion and ab’rt’n follows* if i could save time in a bottle… (i’m tired, pls excuse how choppy this is. i can’t get it to sound correct. sorry.) ok, continuing the story i seem to be relaying here lately: a young aquaintance of ours is preg, and in some other difficult situations. the new twist is that she’s being pressured to become un-pregnant by a lot of ppl she cares about: including the boy and his family, who were initially supportive of the pregnancy. she is also being pressured to stay pregnant by others: including her aunt (who wants to raise the baby as a foster child) and her mom who has threatened to kick her out of the house if she doesn’t have the baby. being kicked out might not be the worst thing in the world for her, but it wouldn’t be great either. there are so many considerations to everything, you know? school, friends, family, life, baby, future…. but none of these decisions are mine to make for her. to that end: she may be coming to our house for a few days as a kind of respite and free space to think; to consider whether she will keep the baby or not. i’m not sure if this will actually happen. i have heard that even her mother, who dislikes me intensely, wants her to come. desperate times, i guess. i did not push to make this happen. this is kind of out of left field from my pov, because i didn’t know about the twist until today. i’m ok with her coming — more than ok, even, i want her to have some space — but it will be a bit difficult on my end. i’m glad to do it though; i don’t begrudge her any help i might have to offer as it’s been precious little i’ve been able to help in the grand scheme of things. she’s a really good kid who has overcome a lot. i have simply made it known for a long time, far before this, that if she ever needed a place to escape to, my place was available for short times. those of you who know us, know what we would want for her. and those of you who know us well, know that whatever she chooses, we will still be in her corner – for her sake and because she is important. i guess i’m just thinking that her family knows what i believe, and wonder if i’m not somehow expected to be a part of that coercion. i won’t be. if she asks what i think, i’ll let her know gently, but she doesn’t have to ask to know. if she just wants to talk, i’ll listen. if she just needs space, space she will have. she is being pulled in so many directions at once, i can’t even imagine. give me your baby, don’t have the baby, if you don’t have the baby you have nowhere to live. i ish i had a magic peace to grant her. the best i have is a room, a lot of books, a bike and a beach. hopefully, that will be enough. thanks if you read this. i don’t really need any responses. i feel like writing this has helped *me* enough. if you can think of anything for her, pass it on. RI resources welcomed. take great care. peace from our pieces, embies Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth Boorstin — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi
– The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing we are becoming white light.
Response:
hi guys, first, and before i say anything else: thank you all for the help and insight that you’ve given me. it has been invaluable. that said, i just felt i needed to write something here in case i have in any way misrepresented myself. i/we are not saint embies. we’re not some great, glowing, philanthropic entity that does good deeds, counsels the suffering or anything like that. we’re just in a position to help in a seriously "last resort" kind of way in this situation. we’re *so* not the first line of defense; and we’ve been writing here because we’re scared, both for ourselves (that we are not up to the challenge and will fail her) and for this young girl (who has a lot more challenges to face than we do). we are not some wonderful friend to her that has been there through all her hard times. quite the opposite in fact, when we look in the mirror, what we see is a woman who has failed her — in horrible, concrete ways that we’ve not yet been able to forgive ourselves for. she is simply the niece of a dear friend, and were it not for my friendship with many of her extended family members, we wouldn’t see her at all. we’re not tight; my impression these last years is that she doesn’t even really like me that much. (and "ouch," yes, that hurts. she used to like me when she was younger, but kids like more ppl than teenagers do. it’s just the way of things. there are other factors too, some quite convoluted, but like a friend of mine has been known to say about ppl, "the two of us just don’t make mocha." we hope that time, again, will change our relationship, but we understand that this may not ever happen. so much water. such a vast bridge.) i love her, i do. please don’t misunderstand that. but the extent of our relationship lately is that she gets a small present from me at christmas & etc., and when one of her family members (not she) invites me to a dance recital or a birthday party for her i’m excited to see her and cheer her on. i’d do a whole lot more for her, but we don’t have the kind of relationship where she’d ask. i wish it were different, but it’s not. at times that breaks my heart, because she really needs more ppl in her corner. but *somehow*, she’s manged to grow into an amazing young woman — beautiful, poised, loving — without me (sic.) and without a lot of other things i have always wished she could have. anyway, i just felt kind of weird about ppl telling me that she is lucky to have me as a friend, because i fall far short of that sentiment. i feel weird about posting this too, because it still makes me seem like i’m a better person than i am. (and please, don’t think, "and she’s humble too." i’m not being humble, just real. i’m worried, and willing to help, but i’m not *that* person. i’m just not.) at least this is filled with truth, and with that i can have a clear conscience about how i am presenting myself. so please, don’t respond to this one. it’s made me sad to write, but it’s all true. if you want to respond, just send positive thoughts, hope and/or pr’yers in her direction. she sees the doc tomorrow (well, today technically) and will likely need them. then, hopefully (for we don’t know now what is to be), she will spend some of the weekend with us as a respite. i really want, for her to understand that this is a place where she can come and be safe, and that i *want* her to, no one’s twisting my arm. that i don’t want it for my sake, but for hers. (ugh, i am too emotional of a person to be allowed to *live*. this wasn’t supposed to be sentimental. i failed in that respect. ah well… i’ve got worse faults. with thanks for your understanding and kindnesses, they have really helped me and may yet help her. peace from our pieces, embies Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth Boorstin — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi
Response:
hi embies, I just want to wish you both well for the weekend. I really hope it goes well for both of you. take care, frankii.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi guys, first, and before i say anything else: thank you all for the help and insight that you’ve given me. it has been invaluable. that said, i just felt i needed to write something here in case i have in any way misrepresented myself. i/we are not saint embies. we’re not some great, glowing, philanthropic entity that does good deeds, counsels the suffering or anything like that. we’re just in a position to help in a seriously "last resort" kind of way in this situation. we’re *so* not the first line of defense; and we’ve been writing here because we’re scared, both for ourselves (that we are not up to the challenge and will fail her) and for this young girl (who has a lot more challenges to face than we do). we are not some wonderful friend to her that has been there through all her hard times. quite the opposite in fact, when we look in the mirror, what we see is a woman who has failed her — in horrible, concrete ways that we’ve not yet been able to forgive ourselves for. she is simply the niece of a dear friend, and were it not for my friendship with many of her extended family members, we wouldn’t see her at all. we’re not tight; my impression these last years is that she doesn’t even really like me that much. (and "ouch," yes, that hurts. she used to like me when she was younger, but kids like more ppl than teenagers do. it’s just the way of things. there are other factors too, some quite convoluted, but like a friend of mine has been known to say about ppl, "the two of us just don’t make mocha." we hope that time, again, will change our relationship, but we understand that this may not ever happen. so much water. such a vast bridge.) i love her, i do. please don’t misunderstand that. but the extent of our relationship lately is that she gets a small present from me at christmas & etc., and when one of her family members (not she) invites me to a dance recital or a birthday party for her i’m excited to see her and cheer her on. i’d do a whole lot more for her, but we don’t have the kind of relationship where she’d ask. i wish it were different, but it’s not. at times that breaks my heart, because she really needs more ppl in her corner. but *somehow*, she’s manged to grow into an amazing young woman — beautiful, poised, loving — without me (sic.) and without a lot of other things i have always wished she could have. anyway, i just felt kind of weird about ppl telling me that she is lucky to have me as a friend, because i fall far short of that sentiment. i feel weird about posting this too, because it still makes me seem like i’m a better person than i am. (and please, don’t think, "and she’s humble too." i’m not being humble, just real. i’m worried, and willing to help, but i’m not *that* person. i’m just not.) at least this is filled with truth, and with that i can have a clear conscience about how i am presenting myself. so please, don’t respond to this one. it’s made me sad to write, but it’s all true. if you want to respond, just send positive thoughts, hope and/or pr’yers in her direction. she sees the doc tomorrow (well, today technically) and will likely need them. then, hopefully (for we don’t know now what is to be), she will spend some of the weekend with us as a respite. i really want, for her to understand that this is a place where she can come and be safe, and that i *want* her to, no one’s twisting my arm. that i don’t want it for my sake, but for hers. (ugh, i am too emotional of a person to be allowed to *live*. this wasn’t supposed to be sentimental. i failed in that respect. ah well… i’ve got worse faults. with thanks for your understanding and kindnesses, they have really helped me and may yet help her. peace from our pieces, embies Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth Boorstin — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi
Response:
A hero is not someone who runs around looking for people to rescue. A hero is someone who does step up to the plate when need demands it. A hero is no less one for being reluctant and/or scared. Reaching out a helping hand after all that is the essence of courage. If you cringe at the word "hero", and I know you do, then accept that you are looked upon with respect and caring. After all, which is more awe-inspiring? Putting forth the effort for one of your closest friends, or putting forth that same effort for someone you are less close to? You are good peoples, embies. I’m sorry, but you’ll just have to learn to live with that fact. Peace and strength, Tide Rider
| hi guys, | | first, and before i say anything else: thank you all for the help and | insight that you’ve given me. it has been invaluable. | | that said, i just felt i needed to write something here in case i have | in any way misrepresented myself. i/we are not saint embies. we’re not | some great, glowing, philanthropic entity that does good deeds, counsels | the suffering or anything like that. we’re just in a position to help | in a seriously "last resort" kind of way in this situation. we’re *so* | not the first line of defense; and we’ve been writing here because we’re | scared, both for ourselves (that we are not up to the challenge and will | fail her) and for this young girl (who has a lot more challenges to face | than we do). | | we are not some wonderful friend to her that has been there through all | her hard times. quite the opposite in fact, when we look in the mirror, | what we see is a woman who has failed her — in horrible, concrete ways | that we’ve not yet been able to forgive ourselves for. she is simply | the niece of a dear friend, and were it not for my friendship with many | of her extended family members, we wouldn’t see her at all. we’re not | tight; my impression these last years is that she doesn’t even really | like me that much. (and "ouch," yes, that hurts. she used to like me | when she was younger, but kids like more ppl than teenagers do. it’s | just the way of things. there are other factors too, some quite | convoluted, but like a friend of mine has been known to say about ppl, | "the two of us just don’t make mocha." we hope that time, again, will | change our relationship, but we understand that this may not ever | happen. so much water. such a vast bridge.) | | i love her, i do. please don’t misunderstand that. but the extent of | our relationship lately is that she gets a small present from me at | christmas & etc., and when one of her family members (not she) invites | me to a dance recital or a birthday party for her i’m excited to see her | and cheer her on. i’d do a whole lot more for her, but we don’t have | the kind of relationship where she’d ask. i wish it were different, but | it’s not. at times that breaks my heart, because she really needs more | ppl in her corner. but *somehow*, she’s manged to grow into an amazing | young woman — beautiful, poised, loving — without me (sic.) and | without a lot of other things i have always wished she could have. | | anyway, i just felt kind of weird about ppl telling me that she is lucky | to have me as a friend, because i fall far short of that sentiment. i | feel weird about posting this too, because it still makes me seem like | i’m a better person than i am. (and please, don’t think, "and she’s | humble too." i’m not being humble, just real. i’m worried, and willing | to help, but i’m not *that* person. i’m just not.) at least this is | filled with truth, and with that i can have a clear conscience about how | i am presenting myself. | | so please, don’t respond to this one. it’s made me sad to write, but | it’s all true. if you want to respond, just send positive thoughts, | hope and/or pr’yers in her direction. she sees the doc tomorrow (well, | today technically) and will likely need them. then, hopefully (for we | don’t know now what is to be), she will spend some of the weekend with | us as a respite. i really want, for her to understand that this is a | place where she can come and be safe, and that i *want* her to, no one’s | twisting my arm. that i don’t want it for my sake, but for hers. (ugh, | i am too emotional of a person to be allowed to *live*. this wasn’t | supposed to be sentimental. i failed in that respect. ah well… i’ve | got worse faults. | | with thanks for your understanding and kindnesses, they have really helped | me and may yet help her. | | peace from our pieces, embies | | | Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth | Boorstin | | | | | | — | For more information about this posting service, contact: | If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: | | https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi
Response:
*really wicked grin* Rainbow Colors (Jill, don’t you just hate it when you realize that you are just plain normal?) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi guys, first, and before i say anything else: thank you all for the help and insight that you’ve given me. it has been invaluable. that said, i just felt i needed to write something here in case i have in any way misrepresented myself. i/we are not saint embies. we’re not some great, glowing, philanthropic entity that does good deeds, counsels the suffering or anything like that. we’re just in a position to help in a seriously "last resort" kind of way in this situation. we’re *so* not the first line of defense; and we’ve been writing here because we’re scared, both for ourselves (that we are not up to the challenge and will fail her) and for this young girl (who has a lot more challenges to face than we do). we are not some wonderful friend to her that has been there through all her hard times. quite the opposite in fact, when we look in the mirror, what we see is a woman who has failed her — in horrible, concrete ways that we’ve not yet been able to forgive ourselves for. she is simply the niece of a dear friend, and were it not for my friendship with many of her extended family members, we wouldn’t see her at all. we’re not tight; my impression these last years is that she doesn’t even really like me that much. (and "ouch," yes, that hurts. she used to like me when she was younger, but kids like more ppl than teenagers do. it’s just the way of things. there are other factors too, some quite convoluted, but like a friend of mine has been known to say about ppl, "the two of us just don’t make mocha." we hope that time, again, will change our relationship, but we understand that this may not ever happen. so much water. such a vast bridge.) i love her, i do. please don’t misunderstand that. but the extent of our relationship lately is that she gets a small present from me at christmas & etc., and when one of her family members (not she) invites me to a dance recital or a birthday party for her i’m excited to see her and cheer her on. i’d do a whole lot more for her, but we don’t have the kind of relationship where she’d ask. i wish it were different, but it’s not. at times that breaks my heart, because she really needs more ppl in her corner. but *somehow*, she’s manged to grow into an amazing young woman — beautiful, poised, loving — without me (sic.) and without a lot of other things i have always wished she could have. anyway, i just felt kind of weird about ppl telling me that she is lucky to have me as a friend, because i fall far short of that sentiment. i feel weird about posting this too, because it still makes me seem like i’m a better person than i am. (and please, don’t think, "and she’s humble too." i’m not being humble, just real. i’m worried, and willing to help, but i’m not *that* person. i’m just not.) at least this is filled with truth, and with that i can have a clear conscience about how i am presenting myself. so please, don’t respond to this one. it’s made me sad to write, but it’s all true. if you want to respond, just send positive thoughts, hope and/or pr’yers in her direction. she sees the doc tomorrow (well, today technically) and will likely need them. then, hopefully (for we don’t know now what is to be), she will spend some of the weekend with us as a respite. i really want, for her to understand that this is a place where she can come and be safe, and that i *want* her to, no one’s twisting my arm. that i don’t want it for my sake, but for hers. (ugh, i am too emotional of a person to be allowed to *live*. this wasn’t supposed to be sentimental. i failed in that respect. ah well… i’ve got worse faults. with thanks for your understanding and kindnesses, they have really helped me and may yet help her. peace from our pieces, embies Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth Boorstin — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi
– The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing we are becoming white light.
Response:
Dear friend – I know you asked for no replies – so: short and sweet. I don’t think you are "saint embies." I knows you. I knows you to be good peoples. Peoples have goodness and weaknesses. You have lots of goodnesses. You prolly hurt a lot more than most people do about your own weaknesses. Just a guess. Beautys. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi guys, first, and before i say anything else: thank you all for the help and insight that you’ve given me. it has been invaluable. that said, i just felt i needed to write something here in case i have in any way misrepresented myself. i/we are not saint embies. we’re not some great, glowing, philanthropic entity that does good deeds, counsels the suffering or anything like that. we’re just in a position to help in a seriously "last resort" kind of way in this situation. we’re *so* not the first line of defense; and we’ve been writing here because we’re scared, both for ourselves (that we are not up to the challenge and will fail her) and for this young girl (who has a lot more challenges to face than we do). we are not some wonderful friend to her that has been there through all her hard times. quite the opposite in fact, when we look in the mirror, what we see is a woman who has failed her — in horrible, concrete ways that we’ve not yet been able to forgive ourselves for. she is simply the niece of a dear friend, and were it not for my friendship with many of her extended family members, we wouldn’t see her at all. we’re not tight; my impression these last years is that she doesn’t even really like me that much. (and "ouch," yes, that hurts. she used to like me when she was younger, but kids like more ppl than teenagers do. it’s just the way of things. there are other factors too, some quite convoluted, but like a friend of mine has been known to say about ppl, "the two of us just don’t make mocha." we hope that time, again, will change our relationship, but we understand that this may not ever happen. so much water. such a vast bridge.) i love her, i do. please don’t misunderstand that. but the extent of our relationship lately is that she gets a small present from me at christmas & etc., and when one of her family members (not she) invites me to a dance recital or a birthday party for her i’m excited to see her and cheer her on. i’d do a whole lot more for her, but we don’t have the kind of relationship where she’d ask. i wish it were different, but it’s not. at times that breaks my heart, because she really needs more ppl in her corner. but *somehow*, she’s manged to grow into an amazing young woman — beautiful, poised, loving — without me (sic.) and without a lot of other things i have always wished she could have. anyway, i just felt kind of weird about ppl telling me that she is lucky to have me as a friend, because i fall far short of that sentiment. i feel weird about posting this too, because it still makes me seem like i’m a better person than i am. (and please, don’t think, "and she’s humble too." i’m not being humble, just real. i’m worried, and willing to help, but i’m not *that* person. i’m just not.) at least this is filled with truth, and with that i can have a clear conscience about how i am presenting myself. so please, don’t respond to this one. it’s made me sad to write, but it’s all true. if you want to respond, just send positive thoughts, hope and/or pr’yers in her direction. she sees the doc tomorrow (well, today technically) and will likely need them. then, hopefully (for we don’t know now what is to be), she will spend some of the weekend with us as a respite. i really want, for her to understand that this is a place where she can come and be safe, and that i *want* her to, no one’s twisting my arm. that i don’t want it for my sake, but for hers. (ugh, i am too emotional of a person to be allowed to *live*. this wasn’t supposed to be sentimental. i failed in that respect. ah well… i’ve got worse faults. with thanks for your understanding and kindnesses, they have really helped me and may yet help her. peace from our pieces, embies Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth Boorstin — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi
Response:
Question:
"Ignoramus3239" <ignoramus3…@NOSPAM.3239.invalid> wrote in message
news:c3f26b$lkl$0@pita.alt.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/03/18/passionate.dispute.ap/index.html > STATESBORO, Georgia (AP) — A couple who got into a dispute over a > theological point after watching "The Passion of the Christ" were > arrested after the argument turned violent. > The two left the movie theater debating whether God the Father in the > Holy Trinity was human or symbolic, and the argument heated up when > they got home, Melissa Davidson said. > "It was the dumbest thing we’ve ever done," she said. > Davidson, 34, and her husband, Sean Davidson, 33, were charged with > simple battery on March 11 after the two called police on each > other. They were released on $1,000 bail. > According to a police report, Melissa Davidson suffered injuries on > her arm and face, while her husband had a scissors stab wound on his > hand and his shirt was ripped off. He also allegedly punched a hole in > a wall. > "Really, it was kind of a pitiful thing, to go to a movie like that > and fight about it. I think they missed the point," said Gene > McDaniel, chief sheriff’s deputy.
This is NOT a "spiritual couple".
Response:
"Ignoramus3239" <ignoramus3…@NOSPAM.3239.invalid> wrote in message
news:c3f26b$lkl$0@pita.alt.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/03/18/passionate.dispute.ap/index.html > STATESBORO, Georgia (AP) — A couple who got into a dispute over a > theological point after watching "The Passion of the Christ" were > arrested after the argument turned violent. > The two left the movie theater debating whether God the Father in the > Holy Trinity was human or symbolic, and the argument heated up when > they got home, Melissa Davidson said. > "It was the dumbest thing we’ve ever done," she said. > Davidson, 34, and her husband, Sean Davidson, 33, were charged with > simple battery on March 11 after the two called police on each > other. They were released on $1,000 bail. > According to a police report, Melissa Davidson suffered injuries on > her arm and face, while her husband had a scissors stab wound on his > hand and his shirt was ripped off. He also allegedly punched a hole in > a wall. > "Really, it was kind of a pitiful thing, to go to a movie like that > and fight about it. I think they missed the point," said Gene > McDaniel, chief sheriff’s deputy.
This last statement is rather ironic. I have not seen the movie myself (and won’t), but according to what I have heard (and heard, and heard, and heard), it is one of the most violent, bloody movies ever made. The comment "This movie made ‘Looking for Private Ryan’ look like a Disney Movie" was used to describe it. It only seems natural that watching THAT MUCH violence on the screen would naturally result in this type of behavior. DIVa — Unemployed? Lonely? Overweight? Depressed? * * * * * DON’T BE! * * * * * http://tinyurl.com/38sc7
Response:
"Diva Martine" <Di…@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:RfP6c.77943$iO.70209@fe21… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Ignoramus3239" <ignoramus3…@NOSPAM.3239.invalid> wrote in message > news:c3f26b$lkl$0@pita.alt.net… > > STATESBORO, Georgia (AP) — A couple who got into a dispute over a > > theological point after watching "The Passion of the Christ" were > > arrested after the argument turned violent. [snip] > > "Really, it was kind of a pitiful thing, to go to a movie like that > > and fight about it. I think they missed the point," said Gene > > McDaniel, chief sheriff’s deputy. > This last statement is rather ironic. I have not seen the movie myself (and > won’t), but according to what I have heard (and heard, and heard, and > heard), it is one of the most violent, bloody movies ever made. The comment > "This movie made ‘Looking for Private Ryan’ look like a Disney Movie" was > used to describe it. It only seems natural that watching THAT MUCH violence > on the screen would naturally result in this type of behavior.
What one sees in "The Passion Of The Christ" depends on ones assumptions. Christ’s teachings on not responding to violence with more violence, not responding to hatred with more hatred, are form a spiritual basis that underlies the history of modern peace activism and humanitarian works. I saw in this movie a call to renounce the damaging effects of anger in my life, and a truly inspiring example of doing this — one that dwarfs my experiences. IMO this is a more powerful movie for affirming the faith of Christians who understand the Biblical meaning of what is happening than it is a movie for spreading this faith to those who lack this background. — Tsam
Response:
"Ignoramus3239 <ignoramus3…@NOSPAM.3239.invalid>" posted a story about a couple that went to "The Passion of the Christ" and then got into an argument which ended in violence and arrest. A police officer was quoted as saying: "Really, it was kind of a pitiful thing, to go to a movie like that and fight about it. I think they missed the point." "Diva Martine <Di…@yahoo.com>" commented: > This last statement is rather ironic. [...] It only seems natural > that watching THAT MUCH violence on the screen would naturally result > in this type of behavior.
Gibson has some brilliant touches in this movie, and I suppose some may be too subtle for part of the audience, so they do miss the point. In a flashback, we see Jesus writing in the sand, and a woman crawling over to him, and a mob of people holding rocks — the mob is turning away, dropping their rocks on the ground as they go. This is clearly a snapshot from the story of the woman taken in adultery from John 8 (<http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JOHN+8:1-11>). At a later point in the movie, we see Mary Magdalene (I think that was who it was supposed to be), witnessing the Romans mistreatment of Jesus, and she is kneeling on the ground — and she presses her hands to the ground and squeezes her fingers together, picking up two fistfuls of rocks. And then she seems to realise what it is she is doing, and she lets them fall to the ground again. * Sometimes, after an action movie, people talk about how cool it was, with all the explosions and shooting and so on. When we saw "Saving Private Ryan", nobody leaving the cinema with us was talking about how cool all the battle scenes were. Anyone who saw "Saving Private Ryan" was definitely exposed to lots of extremely realistic violence — and anybody who came out of that movie more inclined to violence definitely missed the point. The same is true of "The Passion of the Christ". Darren Provine ! kil…@elvis.rowan.edu ! http://www.rowan.edu/~kilroy "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." — Jesus
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Question:
Nuke the Mideast now!!!!!!
Response:
Nuke the Mideast now!!!!!!
TYPICAL AMERICAN! SEEMINGLY YOU DON’T WANT ANY TYPE OF JUSTICE FOR THE PEOPLE THAT LOST LOVED ONES ON THE TRAGIC DAY OF SEPTEMBER 11TH, 2001. LET ME GUESS, YOU SUPPORT BUSH. YOU WIN A PRIZE IF YOU KNOW WHERE I GOT THAT THEORY FROM. B r Y a N R i C e
Response:
Question:
[I had to cut alt.activism, too many groups in crosspost list] It would be nice if we could encourage people who are natural teachers to enter the vocation, and discourage those who are not, to not enter the profession. Same thing with parenthood. There are way too many people who don’t take the responsibility of being a parent seriously and do a hideous job of it. ‘rena
And?
Response:
All a result of actions by the infamous A.C.L.U. and their SNIVEL Rights!
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is against the LAW in Tennessee to post private information, such as grades, of students, without getting their parents permission. Is this person suggesting that the schools BREAK THE LAW in order to have an honor roll? Noting that they are on an honor roll isn’t the same as posting individual grades, and therefore isn’t against the law. How lame can you get? How many F students get listed on the honor roll? B? C? D? What does that leave? Guess! That’s listing the grades of those on the honor roll.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is against the LAW in Tennessee to post private information, such as grades, of students, without getting their parents permission. Is this person suggesting that the schools BREAK THE LAW in order to have an honor roll? Noting that they are on an honor roll isn’t the same as posting individual grades, and therefore isn’t against the law. How lame can you get? How many F students get listed on the honor roll? B? C? D? What does that leave? Guess! That’s listing the grades of those on the honor roll. Once again, individual grades are not posted. Sorry this is such a fucking hot-button issue with you, commie boy. Every single person on the list, individually, got an A. Get it? Not very familiar with honor rolls, eh?
Not all honor rolls require a 4.0, meaning one can’t determine the exact grade unless it’s akin to the President’s List I was on at one college I attended. In any case, I’m sure those recipients were just shamed by the embarrassing exposure they got. Only a Lefty Liberal would find a public announcement of how well a student was doing in college to be an intolerable situation – no wonder you people are such hateful little trolls.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – message It is against the LAW in Tennessee to post private information, such as grades, of students, without getting their parents permission. Is this person suggesting that the schools BREAK THE LAW in order to have an honor roll? Noting that they are on an honor roll isn’t the same as posting individual grades, and therefore isn’t against the law. How lame can you get? How many F students get listed on the honor roll? B? C? D? What does that leave? Guess! That’s listing the grades of those on the honor roll. Once again, individual grades are not posted. Sorry this is such a fucking hot-button issue with you, commie boy. Every single person on the list, individually, got an A. Get it? Not very familiar with honor rolls, eh? Not all honor rolls require a 4.0, meaning one can’t determine the exact grade unless it’s akin to the President’s List I was on at one college I attended. In any case, I’m sure those recipients were just shamed by the embarrassing exposure they got. Only a Lefty Liberal would find a public announcement of how well a student was doing in college to be an intolerable situation – no wonder you people are such hateful little trolls.
It’s the LAW. You are advocating breaking THE LAW. Good for you. The law is just there as a suggestion anyway. It’s up to the people to decide when it’s okay to break them anyway.
Response:
All a result of actions by the infamous A.C.L.U. and their SNIVEL Rights!
No, as a result of the state legislature PASSING A LAW. It’s against the LAW to disclose a student’s grades without the parent’s permission. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is against the LAW in Tennessee to post private information, such as grades, of students, without getting their parents permission. Is this person suggesting that the schools BREAK THE LAW in order to have an honor roll? Noting that they are on an honor roll isn’t the same as posting individual grades, and therefore isn’t against the law. How lame can you get? How many F students get listed on the honor roll? B? C? D? What does that leave? Guess! That’s listing the grades of those on the honor roll.
Response:
To teach 10th grade geometry, all you need is to have mastered it yourself and have an ability to control children, period. All the rest is bullshit. GP The ABILITY to teach is bull shit?
If you don’t know what the hell you are talking about, then yes.
Response:
It is against the LAW in Tennessee to post private information, such as grades, of students, without getting their parents permission. Is this person suggesting that the schools BREAK THE LAW in order to have an honor roll?
Noting that they are on an honor roll isn’t the same as posting individual grades, and therefore isn’t against the law. How lame can you get?
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Educational ineptitude Walter E. Williams What passes for educational enlightenment these days boggles the mind. Matt Gouras, of The Associated Press, writing in the Jan. 5 Seattle Times tells a story about Tennessee schools. The success of some students has made other students feel badly about themselves. What’re the schools’ responses? Public schools in Nashville have stopped posting honor rolls. Some are considering a ban on posting exemplary schoolwork on bulletin boards. Others have canceled academic pep rallies, while others might eliminate spelling bees. Nashville’s Julia Green Elementary School principal, Steven Baum, agrees, thinking that spelling bees and publicly graded events are leftovers from the days of ranking and sorting students. He says: "I discourage competitive games at school. They just don’t fit my worldview of what a school should be." This is a vision all too common among today’s educationists, but there’s a good reason for it: too large a percentage of teachers represent the very bottom of the academic achievement barrel and as such fall easy prey to mindless and destructive fads. and the only thing the students learn is what’s going to be on the test?
Hey, at least they learn something… it’s quite telling when you see the libs foaming and frothing about the standardized tests. Notice that you seldom hear them complaining about specifics ("we’re testing too much on subject A and not enough on subject B") but it’s the whole IDEA of standardized tests that get their panties in a knot. The reason for that is that liberals HATE the idea of ANY type of objective standard to judge performance or worth, because it deprives them of the ability to make arbitrary, subjective declatarations that X is just a good as Y. Liberals teachers and administrators don’t want to be held to an objective standard for the same reasons that liberals detest free-market economics – systems that clearly refute their ideas are not welcome. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Those choosing non-teaching physics and math are one of the academically strongest groups. Some of the more capable who initially chose teaching will find the teacher-preparation curriculum to be boring and intellectually empty, and shift to curricula that are academically more challenging and rewarding." Simanek adds: "On tests such as the Wessman Personnel Classification Test of verbal analogy and elementary arithmetical computations, the teachers scored, on average, only slightly better than clerical workers. A rather low score was enough to pass. Yet half the teachers failed."
Bush obviously did better than Al Gore, who flunked out of both law school AND divinity school (how in the hell can you flunk out of divinity school?). There are other causes for the sorry state of today’s primary and secondary education. There’s been the politicizing of education. Teachers have recruited students to write letters to the president protesting the war and participate in demonstrations against school budget cuts. Oh . I thought you wee going to talk about the VERY REAL abuse of the eductional system BY politicians!
So it’s not "abuse" when the teachers use the students as pawns to push their own political agenda?
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is against the LAW in Tennessee to post private information, such as grades, of students, without getting their parents permission. Is this person suggesting that the schools BREAK THE LAW in order to have an honor roll? Noting that they are on an honor roll isn’t the same as posting individual grades, and therefore isn’t against the law. How lame can you get? How many F students get listed on the honor roll? B? C? D? What does that leave? Guess! That’s listing the grades of those on the honor roll.
Once again, individual grades are not posted. Sorry this is such a fucking hot-button issue with you, commie boy.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is against the LAW in Tennessee to post private information, such as grades, of students, without getting their parents permission. Is this person suggesting that the schools BREAK THE LAW in order to have an honor roll? Noting that they are on an honor roll isn’t the same as posting individual grades, and therefore isn’t against the law. How lame can you get? How many F students get listed on the honor roll? B? C? D? What does that leave? Guess! That’s listing the grades of those on the honor roll. Once again, individual grades are not posted. Sorry this is such a fucking hot-button issue with you, commie boy.
Every single person on the list, individually, got an A. Get it? Not very familiar with honor rolls, eh?
Response:
It is against the LAW in Tennessee to post private information, such as grades, of students, without getting their parents permission. Is this person suggesting that the schools BREAK THE LAW in order to have an honor roll? Noting that they are on an honor roll isn’t the same as posting individual grades, and therefore isn’t against the law. How lame can you get?
How many F students get listed on the honor roll? B? C? D? What does that leave? Guess! That’s listing the grades of those on the honor roll.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Educational ineptitude Walter E. Williams What passes for educational enlightenment these days boggles the mind. Matt Gouras, of The Associated Press, writing in the Jan. 5 Seattle Times tells a story about Tennessee schools. The success of some students has made other students feel badly about themselves. What’re the schools’ responses? Public schools in Nashville have stopped posting honor rolls. Some are considering a ban on posting exemplary schoolwork on bulletin boards. Others have canceled academic pep rallies, while others might eliminate spelling bees. Nashville’s Julia Green Elementary School principal, Steven Baum, agrees, thinking that spelling bees and publicly graded events are leftovers from the days of ranking and sorting students. He says: "I discourage competitive games at school. They just don’t fit my worldview of what a school should be." This is a vision all too common among today’s educationists, but there’s a good reason for it: too large a percentage of teachers represent the very bottom of the academic achievement barrel and as such fall easy prey to mindless and destructive fads.
the only thing the students learn is what’s going to be on the test? Retired Indiana University (of Pennsylvania) physics professor Donald E. Simanek has assembled considerable data on just who becomes a teacher. Freshman college students who choose education as a major "are on the average, one of the academically weakest groups.
Possibly – but they would also be the group who have the higher ideals of trying to make things better by educating others. Those choosing non-teaching physics and math are one of the academically strongest groups. Some of the more capable who initially chose teaching will find the teacher-preparation curriculum to be boring and intellectually empty, and shift to curricula that are academically more challenging and rewarding." Simanek adds: "On tests such as the Wessman Personnel Classification Test of verbal analogy and elementary arithmetical computations, the teachers scored, on average, only slightly better than clerical workers. A rather low score was enough to pass. Yet half the teachers failed."
There are other causes for the sorry state of today’s primary and secondary education. There’s been the politicizing of education. Teachers have recruited students to write letters to the president protesting the war and participate in demonstrations against school budget cuts.
Oh . I thought you wee going to talk about the VERY REAL abuse of the eductional system BY politicians! Very often, good teachers and principal are faced with the impossible task of having to deal with administrators and school boards who are intellectual inferiors and motivated by political considerations rather than what’s best for
children. Such as trying to get "creationism" into the classroom as science? One of the very best things that can be done for education is to eliminate schools of education.
Using that logic – we should also get rid of our own military – more than large percentage of bellowing college professors! There’s little in the curriculum that contributes directly to the development of the mind. Simanek says that "most teachers have learned ‘methods and skills’ of teaching, but don’t have a solid understanding of the subject they teach.
Then the solution is to create better teachers – NOT "throw out he whole system"! So they end up ‘teaching’ trivia, misinformation and intellectual garbage, but doing it with ‘professional’ polish.
Not anywhere near the level of bellowing college professors Most do not display love of learning, nor the ability to do intense intellectual activity of any kind. Lacking these qualities, they cannot possibly inspire and nourish these qualities in their students."
Again, if the system is broke – fix, don’t dump, it! According to a recent study by the North Central Regional Education Laboratory titled, "Effective Teacher Recruitment and Retention Strategies in the Midwest," 75 percent to 100 percent of the teachers that leave the profession are ranked as either "effective" or "very effective. To improve teaching, we must attract people of higher intellectual ability and we must make teacher salaries related to ability and effectiveness.
That’s part of a solution……as would be peer review, and possibly, psychological testing. Sadly – then we would have more competant teachers . and about 2,000 kids for each teacher. We must ensure that teachers have more academic freedom, better working conditions and a suitable environment for teaching.
First of all …… that takes MONEY …. second – it depends what you mean by "academic freedom". That is totally ambiguous, therefore meaningless! An important component of that environment is the capacity to remove students who are alien and hostile to the education process.
Ah…… the old "get rid of all the bad kids, and our standards of education will improve", bull. What, then, do we do with the bad kids? Despite their behavior, do they not have a RIGHT to an education? Do we just dump them in the streets? Does anyone bother to find out WHY they are bad, and try to help them? any problems. Because of my home life (creating what only LOOKED like a hostile attitude) , and my size, I was AUTOMATICALLY seen as a "bad kid". Because of a severe lack of self esteem, and despite a high I.Q., I did average, and even less than average, work. According to your attitude, I would have been dumped; when what I REALLY needed was help!) Finally, we should consider curriculum changes that eliminate courses that have little, if anything, to do with reading, writing and arithmetic.
Ridiculous! The low academic quality of many of our teachers is neither flattering nor comfortable to confront, but confront it we must if we’re to do anything about our sorry state of education.
Agreed …. I just don’t like either your pompous attitude – or your solutions!
Response:
To teach 10th grade geometry, all you need is to have mastered it yourself and have an ability to control children, period. All the rest is bullshit. GP
The ABILITY to teach is bull shit?
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Educational ineptitude Walter E. Williams What passes for educational enlightenment these days boggles the mind. Matt Gouras, of The Associated Press, writing in the Jan. 5 Seattle Times tells a story about Tennessee schools. The success of some students has made other students feel badly about themselves. What’re the schools’ responses? Public schools in Nashville have stopped posting honor rolls. Some are considering a ban on posting exemplary schoolwork on bulletin boards. Others have canceled academic pep rallies, while others might eliminate spelling bees. Nashville’s Julia Green Elementary School principal, Steven Baum, agrees, thinking that spelling bees and publicly graded events are leftovers from the days of ranking and sorting students. He says: "I discourage competitive games at school. They just don’t fit my worldview of what a school should be." This is a vision all too common among today’s educationists, but there’s a good reason for it: too large a percentage of teachers represent the very bottom of the academic achievement barrel and as such fall easy prey to mindless and destructive fads. and the only thing the students learn is what’s going to be on the test?
And they are not apparently even doing that very well either.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Retired Indiana University (of Pennsylvania) physics professor Donald E. Simanek has assembled considerable data on just who becomes a teacher. Freshman college students who choose education as a major "are on the average, one of the academically weakest groups. Maybe hhat’s why over 50% of them never go on to actually major in education – and why another 50% of those who do go on, CHANGE majors and never finish the program. Simanek told you that part too, didn’t he? Those choosing non-teaching physics and math are one of the academically strongest groups. Some of the more capable who initially chose teaching will find the teacher-preparation curriculum to be boring and intellectually empty, and shift to curricula that are academically more challenging and rewarding." Simanek adds: "On tests such as the Wessman Personnel Classification Test of verbal analogy and elementary arithmetical computations, the teachers scored, on average, only slightly better than clerical workers. A rather low score was enough to pass. Yet half the teachers failed." Of those who graduate and go on to teach, still another 50% drop out and quit teaching. Of those who remain… well… they tend to score higher on measures than the average college grad. Secondary teachers in math, science, and English generally score the highest of the group. Many weren’t "education" majors. Those days are fading rapidly. Many majored in their field with courses for teacher certification *added.* ELementary teachers tend to score a little below the average college grad. But things aren’t at all like you claim. One of the very best things that can be done for education is to eliminate schools of education. There’s little in the curriculum that contributes directly to the development of the mind. Simanek says that "most teachers have learned ‘methods and skills’ of teaching, but don’t have a solid understanding of the subject they teach. See above. To teach 10th grade geometry, all you need is to have mastered it yourself and have an ability to control children, period. All the rest is bullshit. It might be helpful if you KNOW HOW TO TEACH! It’s not just reading to the kids and hoping they absorb it. LOL, you mean crackpot ed theories? No thanks.
It would be nice if we could encourage people who are natural teachers to enter the vocation, and discourage those who are not, to not enter the profession.
Response:
[I had to cut alt.activism, too many groups in crosspost list] It would be nice if we could encourage people who are natural teachers to enter the vocation, and discourage those who are not, to not enter the profession.
Same thing with parenthood. There are way too many people who don’t take the responsibility of being a parent seriously and do a hideous job of it. ‘rena
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Retired Indiana University (of Pennsylvania) physics professor Donald E. Simanek has assembled considerable data on just who becomes a teacher. Freshman college students who choose education as a major "are on the average, one of the academically weakest groups. Maybe hhat’s why over 50% of them never go on to actually major in education – and why another 50% of those who do go on, CHANGE majors and never finish the program. Simanek told you that part too, didn’t he? Those choosing non-teaching physics and math are one of the academically strongest groups. Some of the more capable who initially chose teaching will find the teacher-preparation curriculum to be boring and intellectually empty, and shift to curricula that are academically more challenging and rewarding." Simanek adds: "On tests such as the Wessman Personnel Classification Test of verbal analogy and elementary arithmetical computations, the teachers scored, on average, only slightly better than clerical workers. A rather low score was enough to pass. Yet half the teachers failed." Of those who graduate and go on to teach, still another 50% drop out and quit teaching. Of those who remain… well… they tend to score higher on measures than the average college grad. Secondary teachers in math, science, and English generally score the highest of the group. Many weren’t "education" majors. Those days are fading rapidly. Many majored in their field with courses for teacher certification *added.* ELementary teachers tend to score a little below the average college grad. But things aren’t at all like you claim. One of the very best things that can be done for education is to eliminate schools of education. There’s little in the curriculum that contributes directly to the development of the mind. Simanek says that "most teachers have learned ‘methods and skills’ of teaching, but don’t have a solid understanding of the subject they teach. See above. To teach 10th grade geometry, all you need is to have mastered it yourself and have an ability to control children, period. All the rest is bullshit. It might be helpful if you KNOW HOW TO TEACH! It’s not just reading to the kids and hoping they absorb it. LOL, you mean crackpot ed theories? No thanks.
How about some geometry. How about some evolution. How about some truth?
Response:
To teach 10th grade geometry, all you need is to have mastered it yourself and have an ability to control children, period. All the rest is bullshit. GP The ABILITY to teach is bull shit?
He obviously didn’t have any good role models.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Educational ineptitude Walter E. Williams What passes for educational enlightenment these days boggles the mind. Matt Gouras, of The Associated Press, writing in the Jan. 5 Seattle Times tells a story about Tennessee schools. The success of some students has made other students feel badly about themselves. What’re the schools’ responses? Public schools in Nashville have stopped posting honor rolls. Some are considering a ban on posting exemplary schoolwork on bulletin boards. Others have canceled academic pep rallies, while others might eliminate spelling bees. Nashville’s Julia Green Elementary School principal, Steven Baum, agrees, thinking that spelling bees and publicly graded events are leftovers from the days of ranking and sorting students. He says: "I discourage competitive games at school. They just don’t fit my worldview of what a school should be." This is a vision all too common among today’s educationists, but there’s a good reason for it: too large a percentage of teachers represent the very bottom of the academic achievement barrel and as such fall easy prey to mindless and destructive fads. and the only thing the students learn is what’s going to be on the test?
And the ones who won’t pass the tests are expelled. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Retired Indiana University (of Pennsylvania) physics professor Donald E. Simanek has assembled considerable data on just who becomes a teacher. Freshman college students who choose education as a major "are on the average, one of the academically weakest groups. Possibly – but they would also be the group who have the higher ideals of trying to make things better by educating others. Those choosing non-teaching physics and math are one of the academically strongest groups. Some of the more capable who initially chose teaching will find the teacher-preparation curriculum to be boring and intellectually empty, and shift to curricula that are academically more challenging and rewarding." Simanek adds: "On tests such as the Wessman Personnel Classification Test of verbal analogy and elementary arithmetical computations, the teachers scored, on average, only slightly better than clerical workers. A rather low score was enough to pass. Yet half the teachers failed." There are other causes for the sorry state of today’s primary and secondary education. There’s been the politicizing of education. Teachers have recruited students to write letters to the president protesting the war and participate in demonstrations against school budget cuts. Oh . I thought you wee going to talk about the VERY REAL abuse of the eductional system BY politicians! Very often, good teachers and principal are faced with the impossible task of having to deal with administrators and school boards who are intellectual inferiors and motivated by political considerations rather than what’s best for children. Such as trying to get "creationism" into the classroom as science? One of the very best things that can be done for education is to eliminate schools of education. Using that logic – we should also get rid of our own military – more than large percentage of bellowing college professors! There’s little in the curriculum that contributes directly to the development of the mind. Simanek says that "most teachers have learned ‘methods and skills’ of teaching, but don’t have a solid understanding of the subject they teach. Then the solution is to create better teachers – NOT "throw out he whole system"! So they end up ‘teaching’ trivia, misinformation and intellectual garbage, but doing it with ‘professional’ polish. Not anywhere near the level of bellowing college professors Most do not display love of learning, nor the ability to do intense intellectual activity of any kind. Lacking these qualities, they cannot possibly inspire and nourish these qualities in their students." Again, if the system is broke – fix, don’t dump, it! According to a recent study by the North Central Regional Education Laboratory titled, "Effective Teacher Recruitment and Retention Strategies in the Midwest," 75 percent to 100 percent of the teachers that leave the profession are ranked as either "effective" or "very effective. To improve teaching, we must attract people of higher intellectual ability and we must make teacher salaries related to ability and effectiveness. That’s part of a solution……as would be peer review, and possibly, psychological testing. Sadly – then we would have more competant teachers . and about 2,000 kids for each teacher. We must ensure that teachers have more academic freedom, better working conditions and a suitable environment for teaching. First of all …… that takes MONEY …. second – it depends what you mean by "academic freedom". That is totally ambiguous, therefore meaningless! An important component of that environment is the capacity to remove students who are alien and hostile to the education process. Ah…… the old "get rid of all the bad kids, and our standards of education will improve", bull. What, then, do we do with the bad kids? Despite their behavior, do they not have a RIGHT to an education? Do we just dump them in the streets? Does anyone bother to find out WHY they are bad, and try to help them? caused any problems. Because of my home life (creating what only LOOKED like a hostile attitude) , and my size, I was AUTOMATICALLY seen as a "bad kid". Because of a severe lack of self esteem, and despite a high I.Q., I did average, and even less than average, work. According to your attitude, I would have been dumped; when what I REALLY needed was help!) Finally, we should consider curriculum changes that eliminate courses that have little, if anything, to do with reading, writing and arithmetic. Ridiculous! The low academic quality of many of our teachers is neither flattering nor comfortable to confront, but confront it we must if we’re to do anything about our sorry state of education. Agreed …. I just don’t like either your pompous attitude – or your solutions!
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Retired Indiana University (of Pennsylvania) physics professor Donald E. Simanek has assembled considerable data on just who becomes a teacher. Freshman college students who choose education as a major "are on the average, one of the academically weakest groups. Maybe hhat’s why over 50% of them never go on to actually major in education – and why another 50% of those who do go on, CHANGE majors and never finish the program. Simanek told you that part too, didn’t he? Those choosing non-teaching physics and math are one of the academically strongest groups. Some of the more capable who initially chose teaching will find the teacher-preparation curriculum to be boring and intellectually empty, and shift to curricula that are academically more challenging and rewarding." Simanek adds: "On tests such as the Wessman Personnel Classification Test of verbal analogy and elementary arithmetical computations, the teachers scored, on average, only slightly better than clerical workers. A rather low score was enough to pass. Yet half the teachers failed." Of those who graduate and go on to teach, still another 50% drop out and quit teaching. Of those who remain… well… they tend to score higher on measures than the average college grad. Secondary teachers in math, science, and English generally score the highest of the group. Many weren’t "education" majors. Those days are fading rapidly. Many majored in their field with courses for teacher certification *added.* ELementary teachers tend to score a little below the average college grad. But things aren’t at all like you claim. One of the very best things that can be done for education is to eliminate schools of education. There’s little in the curriculum that contributes directly to the development of the mind. Simanek says that "most teachers have learned ‘methods and skills’ of teaching, but don’t have a solid understanding of the subject they teach. See above.
To teach 10th grade geometry, all you need is to have mastered it yourself and have an ability to control children, period. All the rest is bullshit. GP
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Retired Indiana University (of Pennsylvania) physics professor Donald E. Simanek has assembled considerable data on just who becomes a teacher. Freshman college students who choose education as a major "are on the average, one of the academically weakest groups. Maybe hhat’s why over 50% of them never go on to actually major in education – and why another 50% of those who do go on, CHANGE majors and never finish the program. Simanek told you that part too, didn’t he? Those choosing non-teaching physics and math are one of the academically strongest groups. Some of the more capable who initially chose teaching will find the teacher-preparation curriculum to be boring and intellectually empty, and shift to curricula that are academically more challenging and rewarding." Simanek adds: "On tests such as the Wessman Personnel Classification Test of verbal analogy and elementary arithmetical computations, the teachers scored, on average, only slightly better than clerical workers. A rather low score was enough to pass. Yet half the teachers failed." Of those who graduate and go on to teach, still another 50% drop out and quit teaching. Of those who remain… well… they tend to score higher on measures than the average college grad. Secondary teachers in math, science, and English generally score the highest of the group. Many weren’t "education" majors. Those days are fading rapidly. Many majored in their field with courses for teacher certification *added.* ELementary teachers tend to score a little below the average college grad. But things aren’t at all like you claim. One of the very best things that can be done for education is to eliminate schools of education. There’s little in the curriculum that contributes directly to the development of the mind. Simanek says that "most teachers have learned ‘methods and skills’ of teaching, but don’t have a solid understanding of the subject they teach. See above. To teach 10th grade geometry, all you need is to have mastered it yourself and have an ability to control children, period. All the rest is bullshit.
It might be helpful if you KNOW HOW TO TEACH! It’s not just reading to the kids and hoping they absorb it.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Retired Indiana University (of Pennsylvania) physics professor Donald E. Simanek has assembled considerable data on just who becomes a teacher. Freshman college students who choose education as a major "are on the average, one of the academically weakest groups. Maybe hhat’s why over 50% of them never go on to actually major in education – and why another 50% of those who do go on, CHANGE majors and never finish the program. Simanek told you that part too, didn’t he? Those choosing non-teaching physics and math are one of the academically strongest groups. Some of the more capable who initially chose teaching will find the teacher-preparation curriculum to be boring and intellectually empty, and shift to curricula that are academically more challenging and rewarding." Simanek adds: "On tests such as the Wessman Personnel Classification Test of verbal analogy and elementary arithmetical computations, the teachers scored, on average, only slightly better than clerical workers. A rather low score was enough to pass. Yet half the teachers failed." Of those who graduate and go on to teach, still another 50% drop out and quit teaching. Of those who remain… well… they tend to score higher on measures than the average college grad. Secondary teachers in math, science, and English generally score the highest of the group. Many weren’t "education" majors. Those days are fading rapidly. Many majored in their field with courses for teacher certification *added.* ELementary teachers tend to score a little below the average college grad. But things aren’t at all like you claim. One of the very best things that can be done for education is to eliminate schools of education. There’s little in the curriculum that contributes directly to the development of the mind. Simanek says that "most teachers have learned ‘methods and skills’ of teaching, but don’t have a solid understanding of the subject they teach. See above. To teach 10th grade geometry, all you need is to have mastered it yourself and have an ability to control children, period. All the rest is bullshit. It might be helpful if you KNOW HOW TO TEACH! It’s not just reading to the kids and hoping they absorb it.
LOL, you mean crackpot ed theories? No thanks.
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Retired Indiana University (of Pennsylvania) physics professor Donald E. Simanek has assembled considerable data on just who becomes a teacher. Freshman college students who choose education as a major "are on the average, one of the academically weakest groups.
Maybe hhat’s why over 50% of them never go on to actually major in education – and why another 50% of those who do go on, CHANGE majors and never finish the program. Simanek told you that part too, didn’t he? Those choosing non-teaching physics and math are one of the academically strongest groups. Some of the more capable who initially chose teaching will find the teacher-preparation curriculum to be boring and intellectually empty, and shift to curricula that are academically more challenging and rewarding." Simanek adds: "On tests such as the Wessman Personnel Classification Test of verbal analogy and elementary arithmetical computations, the teachers scored, on average, only slightly better than clerical workers. A rather low score was enough to pass. Yet half the teachers failed."
Of those who graduate and go on to teach, still another 50% drop out and quit teaching. Of those who remain… well… they tend to score higher on measures than the average college grad. Secondary teachers in math, science, and English generally score the highest of the group. Many weren’t "education" majors. Those days are fading rapidly. Many majored in their field with courses for teacher certification *added.* ELementary teachers tend to score a little below the average college grad. But things aren’t at all like you claim. One of the very best things that can be done for education is to eliminate schools of education. There’s little in the curriculum that contributes directly to the development of the mind. Simanek says that "most teachers have learned ‘methods and skills’ of teaching, but don’t have a solid understanding of the subject they teach.
See above.
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It is against the LAW in Tennessee to post private information, such as grades, of students, without getting their parents permission. Is this person suggesting that the schools BREAK THE LAW in order to have an honor roll? Perhaps the writer should have listened to NPR yesterday afternoon and learned that schools are going to get permission starting next year and will restore the honor roll then. Typical conservative. Doesn’t mind BREAKING THE LAW to get what they want. Or making up completely bogus explanations about the reason for FOLLOWING THE LAW. It has NOTHING to do with "students feeling badly about themselves." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Educational ineptitude Walter E. Williams What passes for educational enlightenment these days boggles the mind. Matt Gouras, of The Associated Press, writing in the Jan. 5 Seattle Times tells a story about Tennessee schools. The success of some students has made other students feel badly about themselves. What’re the schools’ responses? Public schools in Nashville have stopped posting honor rolls. Some are considering a ban on posting exemplary schoolwork on bulletin boards. Others have canceled academic pep rallies, while others might eliminate spelling bees. Nashville’s Julia Green Elementary School principal, Steven Baum, agrees, thinking that spelling bees and publicly graded events are leftovers from the days of ranking and sorting students. He says: "I discourage competitive games at school. They just don’t fit my worldview of what a school should be." This is a vision all too common among today’s educationists, but there’s a good reason for it: too large a percentage of teachers represent the very bottom of the academic achievement barrel and as such fall easy prey to mindless and destructive fads. Retired Indiana University (of Pennsylvania) physics professor Donald E. Simanek has assembled considerable data on just who becomes a teacher. Freshman college students who choose education as a major "are on the average, one of the academically weakest groups. Those choosing non-teaching physics and math are one of the academically strongest groups. Some of the more capable who initially chose teaching will find the teacher-preparation curriculum to be boring and intellectually empty, and shift to curricula that are academically more challenging and rewarding." Simanek adds: "On tests such as the Wessman Personnel Classification Test of verbal analogy and elementary arithmetical computations, the teachers scored, on average, only slightly better than clerical workers. A rather low score was enough to pass. Yet half the teachers failed." There are other causes for the sorry state of today’s primary and secondary education. There’s been the politicizing of education. Teachers have recruited students to write letters to the president protesting the war and participate in demonstrations against school budget cuts. Very often, good teachers and principal are faced with the impossible task of having to deal with administrators and school boards who are intellectual inferiors and motivated by political considerations rather than what’s best for children. One of the very best things that can be done for education is to eliminate schools of education. There’s little in the curriculum that contributes directly to the development of the mind. Simanek says that "most teachers have learned ‘methods and skills’ of teaching, but don’t have a solid understanding of the subject they teach. So they end up ‘teaching’ trivia, misinformation and intellectual garbage, but doing it with ‘professional’ polish. Most do not display love of learning, nor the ability to do intense intellectual activity of any kind. Lacking these qualities, they cannot possibly inspire and nourish these qualities in their students." According to a recent study by the North Central Regional Education Laboratory titled, "Effective Teacher Recruitment and Retention Strategies in the Midwest," 75 percent to 100 percent of the teachers that leave the profession are ranked as either "effective" or "very effective. To improve teaching, we must attract people of higher intellectual ability and we must make teacher salaries related to ability and effectiveness. We must ensure that teachers have more academic freedom, better working conditions and a suitable environment for teaching. An important component of that environment is the capacity to remove students who are alien and hostile to the education process. Finally, we should consider curriculum changes that eliminate courses that have little, if anything, to do with reading, writing and arithmetic. The low academic quality of many of our teachers is neither flattering nor comfortable to confront, but confront it we must if we’re to do anything about our sorry state of education. http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww20040310.shtml
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Educational ineptitude Walter E. Williams What passes for educational enlightenment these days boggles the mind. Matt Gouras, of The Associated Press, writing in the Jan. 5 Seattle Times tells a story about Tennessee schools. The success of some students has made other students feel badly about themselves. What’re the schools’ responses? Public schools in Nashville have stopped posting honor rolls. Some are considering a ban on posting exemplary schoolwork on bulletin boards. Others have canceled academic pep rallies, while others might eliminate spelling bees. Nashville’s Julia Green Elementary School principal, Steven Baum, agrees, thinking that spelling bees and publicly graded events are leftovers from the days of ranking and sorting students. He says: "I discourage competitive games at school. They just don’t fit my worldview of what a school should be." This is a vision all too common among today’s educationists, but there’s a good reason for it: too large a percentage of teachers represent the very bottom of the academic achievement barrel and as such fall easy prey to mindless and destructive fads. Retired Indiana University (of Pennsylvania) physics professor Donald E. Simanek has assembled considerable data on just who becomes a teacher. Freshman college students who choose education as a major "are on the average, one of the academically weakest groups. Those choosing non-teaching physics and math are one of the academically strongest groups. Some of the more capable who initially chose teaching will find the teacher-preparation curriculum to be boring and intellectually empty, and shift to curricula that are academically more challenging and rewarding." Simanek adds: "On tests such as the Wessman Personnel Classification Test of verbal analogy and elementary arithmetical computations, the teachers scored, on average, only slightly better than clerical workers. A rather low score was enough to pass. Yet half the teachers failed." There are other causes for the sorry state of today’s primary and secondary education. There’s been the politicizing of education. Teachers have recruited students to write letters to the president protesting the war and participate in demonstrations against school budget cuts. Very often, good teachers and principal are faced with the impossible task of having to deal with administrators and school boards who are intellectual inferiors and motivated by political considerations rather than what’s best for children. One of the very best things that can be done for education is to eliminate schools of education. There’s little in the curriculum that contributes directly to the development of the mind. Simanek says that "most teachers have learned ‘methods and skills’ of teaching, but don’t have a solid understanding of the subject they teach. So they end up ‘teaching’ trivia, misinformation and intellectual garbage, but doing it with ‘professional’ polish. Most do not display love of learning, nor the ability to do intense intellectual activity of any kind. Lacking these qualities, they cannot possibly inspire and nourish these qualities in their students." According to a recent study by the North Central Regional Education Laboratory titled, "Effective Teacher Recruitment and Retention Strategies in the Midwest," 75 percent to 100 percent of the teachers that leave the profession are ranked as either "effective" or "very effective. To improve teaching, we must attract people of higher intellectual ability and we must make teacher salaries related to ability and effectiveness. We must ensure that teachers have more academic freedom, better working conditions and a suitable environment for teaching. An important component of that environment is the capacity to remove students who are alien and hostile to the education process. Finally, we should consider curriculum changes that eliminate courses that have little, if anything, to do with reading, writing and arithmetic. The low academic quality of many of our teachers is neither flattering nor comfortable to confront, but confront it we must if we’re to do anything about our sorry state of education. http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww20040310.shtml
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Question:
Classic Repost from May 6, 2001 The Babylonian Talmud Translated into English by Rabbi Dr. I. Epstein London The Soncino Press 1935 [Note: When you see something such as {3}, this means a numbered footnote for further reference. Words and phrases in ( ) are as the appeared in the Talmud, in ( )s. Doc Tavish] <Yebamoth 60b on page 402 of above Talmud: It was taught: Rabbi Simeon b. Yohai stated: A proselyte who is under the age of three years and one day is permitted to marry a priest, for it is said, "But all the women children that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves {3}" and Phineas {4} surely was with them. And the Rabbis? {5}- (These were kept alive) as bondmen and bondwomen. {6} If so, {7} a proselyte whose age is three years and one day {8} should also be permitted!- (The prohibition is to be explained) in accordance with Rabbi Huna. For Rabbi Huna pointed out the contradiction: It is written "Kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him {9}, but if she hath not known, save her alive;" from this it may be inferred that children are to be kept alive whether they have known or not known (a man); and, on the other hand, it is also written, ‘But all the women children, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves’ {3}, but do not spare them if they have known. Consequently {10} it must be said that Scripture speaks of one {11} who is fit for cohabitation. {12} Footnotes to above: {3} Numbers 31, 18 {4} Who was a priest. {5} How could they, contrary to the opinion of Rabbi Simeon b. Yohai, which has scriptural support, forbid the marriage of the young proselyte? {6} Not for matrimony. {7} That according to Rabbi Simeon, Numbers 31, 18 refers to matrimony. {8} So long as she has "not known a man." {9} Numbers 31, 17 {10} To reconcile the contradiction. {11} I.e. one who had attained the age of three years and one day. {12} Not one who had actually experienced it. The following was from a reply post and it further amplifies Jewish male cravings for toddler females! Let’s see. First the Rabbis point out that Simeon b. Yohai was talking through his yarmulke. Then they point out that the marriage to the said three-year-old girl need not be consummated immediately. This is supposed to prove approval of pederasty.
Does this suit you better? <Sanhedrin 55b on page 376 in above Talmud: Rabbi Joseph said: Come and hear! A maiden aged three years and one day may be acquired in marriage by coition… If she married a priest, she may eat of terumah; {3} [Coition means having the sex act and notice please that the age is at three years and one day! I do not see any Brady Bill type of a waiting period for consummation. Do you? Doc Tavish] Footnote: {3} As the law of an Israelite’s (adult) daughter who married a priest. But if she is less than three years old, although the Kiddushin accepted on her behalf by her father is valid, yet since she is sexually immature, the marriage cannot be consummated, and hence she is not thereby enabled to eat the terumah. The footnotes {3} and {4} for Sanhedrin 54b on Talmud volume page 371 say: {3} At nine years a male attains sexual matureness. {4} Lev. XVIII, 22 Thus the point of comparison is the sexual matureness of woman is reached at the age of three. Are you going to deny this as well? Come on now and face reality! If the Talmud says "sexual matureness of woman is reached at the age of three" is anyone going to believe what you said: "they point out that the marriage to the said three-year-old girl need not be consummated immediately." If she is considered to be sexually mature at the age of three then why would any groom put off consummating the marriage? Read the Footnote again (as shown above): {3} As the law of an Israelite’s (adult) daughter who married a priest. But if she is less than three years old, although the Kiddushin accepted on her behalf by her father is valid, yet since she is sexually immature, the marriage cannot be consummated, and hence she is not thereby enabled to eat the terumah. Please note why the marriage can NOT be consummated- "if she is less than three years old" and "since she is sexually immature, the marriage cannot be consummated." As a further note, if Jews didn’t have hangups about sex with three year old girls then why is this on the web? http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5757/achrei.html (Link active January 28, 2004. Archived locally as: achrei) SELECTED HALACHOS RELATING TO PARSHAS ACHREI Hilchos Yichud: Rulings of HaRav Feinstein By Rabbi Doniel Neustadt [...] HILCHOS YICHUD: RULINGS OF HARAV M. FEINSTEIN This verse is cited by most of the early authorities as the Biblical source for the halachos of yichud, the prohibition against a man being alone in a secluded place with a woman. The laws of yichud are complex and detailed and the opinions of the poskim are diverse and contradictory. This discussion will focus exclusively on the rulings of Harav Moshe Feinstien, one of the greatest halachic authorities of our generation…. AT WHAT AGE DOES THE PROHIBITION OF YICHUD BEGIN AND END? A man over thirteen is prohibited to be alone with a girl over three. Under extenuating circumstances, it is permitted to be alone with a girl till the age of seven (5). A woman over twelve may not be alone with a boy over nine. Footnote: 5 Oral ruling by Harav M. Feinstein (quoted in Children in Halachah pg. 40) based on the rational presented in Igros Moshe EH 4:65-12, where, in the final analysis, Harav Feinstein is hesitant to permit this. He writes, however, that he would not object to those who are lenient. As an added bonus here is oral sex (Cirumcision) on infant males by Rabbis: (NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE ARE THESE BIZARRE TRADITIONS COMMANDED!!!) http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/mohel.htm (Archived locally as: talmudic_perversion) (Click the link above to verify the contents and to see pictures which appeared in The Jerusalem Post magazine) Shabbath 19:2 They may perform on the Sabbath all things that are needful for circumcision: excision, tearing, sucking [the wound], and putting thereon a bandage and cumin. If this had not been pounded up on the eve of the Sabbath a man may chew it with his teeth and then apply it. The Mishnah Translated by Herbert Danby Oxford: Oxford University Press. 1933. pp. 116-117. Shabbat 133B II.1. A. Suck [out the wound]: B. Said R. Pappa, "A Surgeon who didn’t suck out the wound – that is a source of danger, and we throw him out." C. So what else is new? Obviously, since we are prepared to desecrate the Sabbath on that account, it is certainly dangerous not to do it! D. What might you have supposed? That this blood is stored up. So we are informed that it is the result of the wound, and in the status of a bandage and cumin: Just as when one doesn’t put on a bandage and cumin, there is danger, so here, too, if one doesn’t do it, there is danger. The Talmud of Babylonia: An American Translation Translated by Jacob Neusner Number 275. Volume II.E: Shabbat Chapters 18-24. Program in Judaic Studies Brown University Atlanta: Scholars Press. 1993. p. 45. [The brackets in the quotes below are in the texts quoted.] "There are three stages required for the performance of a ritually correct circumcision in Jewish law: the removal of the foreskin; the tearing of the underlying membraene so as to expose the glans completely; and the sucking away of the blood, m’tsitsah." Roger V. Pavey. The Kindest Cut of All. Bognor Regis, W. Sussex: New Horizon. 1981. pp. 87-88. "The method to be adopted is laid down thus: ‘One excises the foreskin, [that is] the entire skin covering the glans, so that the corona is laid bare. Afterwards, one tears with the finger-nail the soft membrane underneath the skin, turning it to the sides until the flesh of the glans appears. Thereafter, one sucks the membrane until the blood is extracted from the [more] remote places, so that no danger [to the infant] may ensue; and any circumciser who does not carry out the sucking procedure is to be removed [from his office].’ . . . The operation itself, then, consists of three distinct acts: the excision of the prepuce; the laceration of the mucous membrane covering the glans; and the sucking of the blood from the interior of the wound." Immanuel Jakobovits. Jewish Medical Ethics: A Comparative and Historical Study of the Jewish Religious Attitude to Medicine and Its Practice. New York: Bloch Publishing Company. 1959. pp. 193-194. "The baby cried, blood flowed on to his penis and – as the rabbi had predicted – Graham [the godfather] did not faint. The rabbi then bent over the baby and sucked the wound. I know this sounds awful, but it is part of the Jewish tradition. It’s supposed to help the healing." Jack Shamash. "My Son on the Cutting Edge." Independent (London), no. 3,797 (Thursday, December 17, 1998): p. R8. "And what of the practice of sucking the bleeding penis? While condemning the procedure, some physicians contend that it was used to stop bleeding.47 Not only is there little evidence for this theory, but it was also a largely ineffective method. Furthermore, even in antiquity, surgeons had better methods to stop bleeding, such as pressure, instruments, and medication.48 According to Dr. H. Speert (1953), Maimonides ’staunchly supported this procedure [sucking the bleeding penis] as a prophylactic measure against inflammation.’"49 Edward Wallerstein. Circumcision: An American Health Fallacy. New York: Springer Publishing Company. 1980. p. 160. "mezizah — Hebrew term for the third step in the Jewish circumcision ritual, in which the mohel applies his mouth to the freshly circumcised infant’s penis and sucks up the first drops of blood. In more recent … read more »
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In one age, called the Second Age by some, (an Age yet to come, an Age long past) someone claiming to be Barney Fife wrote Classic Repost from May 6, 2001
You misspelled "Classic distortions having nothing whatever to do with the historical facts of the Holocaust" above, fatboy. HTH
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In one age, called the Second Age by some, (an Age yet to come, an Age long past) someone claiming to be Barney Fife wrote Classic Repost from May 6, 2001 You misspelled "Classic distortions having nothing whatever to do with the historical facts of the Holocaust" above, fatboy. HTH
It is notable that Idiotavish still haven’t responded to me. It is also notable that all of Idiotavish’s claims about Talmud were carefully deconstructed by Harry Katz and others. Ask Mr. Google!
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In one age, called the Second Age by some, (an Age yet to come, an Age long past) someone claiming to be Sergey Romanov wrote In one age, called the Second Age by some, (an Age yet to come, an Age long past) someone claiming to be Barney Fife wrote Classic Repost from May 6, 2001 You misspelled "Classic distortions having nothing whatever to do with the historical facts of the Holocaust" above, fatboy. It is notable that Idiotavish still haven’t responded to me. It is also notable that all of Idiotavish’s claims about Talmud were carefully deconstructed by Harry Katz and others. Ask Mr. Google!
But haven’t you heard? *None* of the Shame of Belleville’s post have *ever* been refuted. Zie will tell you so zirself. </sarcasm
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In one age, called the Second Age by some, (an Age yet to come, an Age long past) someone claiming to be Barney Fife wrote Classic Repost from May 6, 2001 You misspelled "Classic distortions having nothing whatever to do with the historical facts of the Holocaust" above, fatboy. HTH
On the contrary, this post goes directly to the root of why anti-Semitism exists, ie: jews bring it upon themselves by practicing the perversions described by the above quote from the Talmud.
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In one age, called the Second Age by some, (an Age yet to come, an Age long past) someone claiming to be Barney Fife wrote Classic Repost from May 6, 2001 You misspelled "Classic distortions having nothing whatever to do with the historical facts of the Holocaust" above, fatboy.
^^^^^^ My name is not fatboy you Child of the Devil! Can’t refute what I post so you insult me- how Pharisee like of you! BTW what I posted has everything to do with the "Holocaust" because it shows what the people are like who are making most of the claims! With Neo-Pharisees V2.0 S_0128 HTH It is notable that Idiotavish still haven’t responded to me.
I have responded to you- you liar!! actual debate–he better not run away this time! It is also notable that all of Idiotavish’s claims about Talmud were carefully deconstructed by Harry Katz and others.
Name call is not refuting me! What I posted stands on its own and I take note you didn’t attempt to refute it! Ask Mr. Google!
With Neo-Pharisees V2.0 S_0128 Tavish Neo-Pharisees V2.0 S_0128 http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=5rhktv483m9oofgqt8goir93o4pm0… If Jews are allowed to call a historic event a "Holocaust" based on Jews being tortured, imprisoned, and executed by Nazis then why can’t Christians claim Jews had "Holocausts" against non-Jews/Christians seeing how the 1st Century Pharisees and the 20th Century Jewish led Bolshevists tortured, imprisoned, and executed Christians/non-Jews. Jews also deny these other "Holocausts" so going by their standards they are "Holocaust Deniers" and should be prosecuted for Holocaust Denial"and "Minimalizing the Holocaust[s])" as well! Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com – Accounts Starting At $6.95 – http://www.uncensored-news.com <<<<<<< The Worlds Uncensored News Source <<<<<<<<
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In one age, called the Second Age by some, (an Age yet to come, an Age long past) someone claiming to be Barney Fife wrote In one age, called the Second Age by some, (an Age yet to come, an Age long past) someone claiming to be Barney Fife wrote Classic Repost from May 6, 2001 You misspelled "Classic distortions having nothing whatever to do with the historical facts of the Holocaust" above, fatboy. My name is not fatboy you Child of the Devil! Can’t refute what I post so you insult me- how Pharisee like of you!
Except that it *has* been refuted, and yet you continue you spew it all over Usenet. How obsessive of you, fatboy! BTW what I posted has everything to do with the "Holocaust" because it shows what the people are like who are making most of the claims!
Even if what you claim is true, it has no impact whatever on the historical facts of the Holocaust. HTH It is notable that Idiotavish still haven’t responded to me. I have responded to you- you liar!!
No, you have ignored his points and simply repeated your lies. actual debate–he better not run away this time! It is also notable that all of Idiotavish’s claims about Talmud were carefully deconstructed by Harry Katz and others. Name call is not refuting me! What I posted stands on its own and I take note you didn’t attempt to refute it!
Nor has Harry called you any names is his refutation. Ask Mr. Google!
Not that it will make any difference to the Most Impotent Liar on Usenet, the Shame of Belleville — blubberbury.
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In one age, called the Second Age by some, (an Age yet to come, an Age long past) someone claiming to be Barney Fife wrote Classic Repost from May 6, 2001 You misspelled "Classic distortions having nothing whatever to do with the historical facts of the Holocaust" above, fatboy. HTH On the contrary, this post goes directly to the root of why anti-Semitism exists, ie: jews bring it upon themselves by practicing the perversions described by the above quote from the Talmud.
Whay a tool. Has it occurred to this brainiac that the like all old manuscripts the Bible has some strange stuff in it? No, ’cause that would deflate the ‘point’ he’s trying to make. Jason
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It is notable that Idiotavish still haven’t responded to me. I have responded to you- you liar!! actual debate–he better not run away this time!
Again, this is another case of Idiotavish’s demonstrable lie, since his bullshit has been refuted by me long ago: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&selm=aa65… And it is to this posting he didn’t respond. It is also notable that all of Idiotavish’s claims about Talmud were carefully deconstructed by Harry Katz and others. Name call is not refuting me! What I posted stands on its own and I take note you didn’t attempt to refute it!
Why, Harry Katz did it. http://groups.google.com.ru/groups?selm=356DB4D2.A2A307A6%40mci.com&o… http://groups.google.com.ru/groups?selm=357CB75E.FAD2ECC0%40mci.com&o… http://groups.google.com.ru/groups?selm=3A050E0C.D09E9437%40earthlink… http://groups.google.com.ru/groups?selm=3A0E468D.ED80F2FA%40earthlink… http://groups.google.com.ru/groups?selm=3A20B8F1.81EE2916%40earthlink…
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On the contrary, this post goes directly to the root of why anti-Semitism exists, ie: jews bring it upon themselves by practicing the perversions described by the above quote from the Talmud.
You are a degenerate Jew Hater.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In one age, called the Second Age by some, (an Age yet to come, an Age long past) someone claiming to be Barney Fife wrote In one age, called the Second Age by some, (an Age yet to come, an Age long past) someone claiming to be Barney Fife wrote Classic Repost from May 6, 2001 You misspelled "Classic distortions having nothing whatever to do with the historical facts of the Holocaust" above, fatboy. My name is not fatboy you Child of the Devil! Can’t refute what I post so you insult me- how Pharisee like of you! Except that it *has* been refuted, and yet you continue you spew it all over Usenet.
It hasn’t been refuted. Diversions, personal attacks, and name calling is NOT refutation. How obsessive of you, fatboy!
My name is not fatboy you krema klinker! BTW what I posted has everything to do with the "Holocaust" because it shows what the people are like who are making most of the claims! Even if what you claim is true, it has no impact whatever on the historical facts of the Holocaust.
Anyone who has learned about Jews and how they lie know it has everything to do with it! How you handle verifiable documented facts proves your kind are not to be trusted with matters 60 years old! With Neo-Pharisees V2.0 S_0128 Neo-Pharisees V2.0 S_0128 HTH It is notable that Idiotavish still haven’t responded to me. I have responded to you- you liar!! No, you have ignored his points and simply repeated your lies.
Not true and anyone reading the archive below will see who the liars are!! actual debate–he better not run away this time! It is also notable that all of Idiotavish’s claims about Talmud were carefully deconstructed by Harry Katz and others. Name call is not refuting me! What I posted stands on its own and I take note you didn’t attempt to refute it! Nor has Harry called you any names is his refutation.
NOT TRUE!! Here is how Harry Katz refuted what I posted. Compare his refutation to what I actually posted and anyone with objectivity will see it was no refutation! http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=u1in5torofaecj03ldl0cftpb16gc… Jeffrey Calls Them Ask Mr. Google! Not that it will make any difference to the Most Impotent Liar on Usenet, the Shame of Belleville — blubberbury.
The lurkers know who the liars are! My "Maxim Concerning Debate"- Originally written in a letter to Liberal Radio Talk Show Host Jim Hightower: "I am tired of seeing people get attacked for speaking the truth and the hecklers not being able to prove their point other than scorn or ridicule. Liberals can’t refute the truth so all liberals instead attempt to make the truth bearer into a buffoon hoping to draw the public’s attention away from the message! I will tell you a secret and I hope that you learn from it! This is my original- "If I hear something being debated pertaining to a subject that I am not cognizant of, therefore impartial, I examine the manner of the debate and conduct. I know who is telling the truth and who is lying by the tactics employed- the liar always attacks the opposing person and the truth teller always attacks the opposing premise!" The Socialists/Marxists/Leftists/Liberals or whatever name they choose to exist under are the primary users of smear and innuendo thus they typically resort to personal attacks instead of dealing in FACT. Tavish Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com – Accounts Starting At $6.95 – http://www.uncensored-news.com <<<<<<< The Worlds Uncensored News Source <<<<<<<<
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In one age, called the Second Age by some, (an Age yet to come, an Age long past) someone claiming to be Barney Fife wrote Classic Repost from May 6, 2001 You misspelled "Classic distortions having nothing whatever to do with the historical facts of the Holocaust" above, fatboy. HTH On the contrary, this post goes directly to the root of why anti-Semitism exists, ie: jews bring it upon themselves by practicing the perversions described by the above quote from the Talmud.
And what is strange they don’t deny I am quoting actual Talmud texts- rather they claim I’m not interpreting them correctly! I hardly say a thing other than make an observation or two! Anyone with basic reading comprehension can see what those texts teach. I gave all links too to the supplemental materials as well. Neo-Pharisees V2.0 S_0128 With Neo-Pharisees V2.0 S_0128 (Boiling Semen & Excrement) S_0127 I hope the people of Christendom start seeing these anti-Christ Children of the Devil for what they are. I am sickened to death to see them claim those perverts are the Chosen Ones of God when they and they alone have committed the unforgivable sin and still do! Tavish How First Century Christianity Was Treated by Jews: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=m1p5nv4es86j78p5dr5pe41l8pi3v… Research) V2.5 R_0925 http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=k11ucvc1j4hl6s7av6qpr9882esa9… http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=i31ucv4nvr6ehh6r2jgq8d7orrpfh… The first "Holocaust" was not Gentiles (Nazis) Against Jews BUT was Jews (Communists) Against Christian Kulaks!!! How Later Christianity was/is treated by Jews: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=upe9kvor1pdvm2ifa8sfa0qfboa6u… is NOT a Valid Comparison V2.5 R_0821 Jewish Led Bolsheviks Scalped & Crucified Christians by Philippa Fletcher http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=34c17d0f.1410012285%40news.sm… http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=u626vv814v0dt9raqv17ede0h4536… http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=ncu5gvoc1nga0k933sgt0sbtglrv1… Holocausts Jews have waged against non-Jews and Jewish denial of their Holocausts against Christians/non-Jews: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=5rhktv483m9oofgqt8goir93o4pm0… Addition to Their anti-Christic Christ Denial anti-Christism Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com – Accounts Starting At $6.95 – http://www.uncensored-news.com <<<<<<< The Worlds Uncensored News Source <<<<<<<<
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In one age, called the Second Age by some, (an Age yet to come, an Age long past) someone claiming to be Barney Fife wrote
<attribution Classic Repost from May 6, 2001 You misspelled "Classic distortions having nothing whatever to do with the historical facts of the Holocaust" above, fatboy. My name is not fatboy you Child of the Devil! Can’t refute what I post so you insult me- how Pharisee like of you! Except that it *has* been refuted, and yet you continue you spew it all over Usenet. It hasn’t been refuted. Diversions, personal attacks, and name calling is NOT refutation.
Nor is that the basis of Harry’s refutation. How obsessive of you, fatboy! My name is not fatboy you krema klinker!
Whatever, fatboy. Deposited my $10k in escrow yet? BTW what I posted has everything to do with the "Holocaust" because it shows what the people are like who are making most of the claims! Even if what you claim is true, it has no impact whatever on the historical facts of the Holocaust. Anyone who has learned about Jews and how they lie know it has everything to do with it!
So, your claim is that every historian that has ever written on the Holocaust has been a Jew? Are you even going to try to support this lie? And speaking of lies, no news from Pennsylvania today *again*. When are you going to get off your fat butt and file that complaint? How you handle verifiable documented facts proves your kind are not to be trusted with matters 60 years old!
… ignoring that your rants are not verifiable, documented *or* facts… It is notable that Idiotavish still haven’t responded to me. I have responded to you- you liar!! No, you have ignored his points and simply repeated your lies. Not true and anyone reading the archive below will see who the liars are!!
Of course, that’s not the post to which I refer… It is also notable that all of Idiotavish’s claims about Talmud were carefully deconstructed by Harry Katz and others. Name call is not refuting me! What I posted stands on its own and I take note you didn’t attempt to refute it! Nor has Harry called you any names is his refutation. NOT TRUE!! Here is how Harry Katz refuted what I posted. Compare his refutation to what I actually posted and anyone with objectivity will see it was no refutation! http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=u1in5torofaecj03ldl0cftpb16gc…
That’s *your* post, not Harry’s, and doesn’t even reference the refutation to which we refer. Ask Mr. Google! Not that it will make any difference to the Most Impotent Liar on Usenet, the Shame of Belleville — blubberbury. The lurkers know who the liars are!
Yep, they sure do fatboy. The Socialists/Marxists/Leftists/Liberals or whatever name they choose to exist under are the primary users of smear and innuendo thus they typically resort to personal attacks instead of dealing in FACT.
You mean like the fact that you have *yet* to escrow my $10k, or the fact that you still haven’t grown the balls to file that complaint? The fact that you take credit for driving Wendy Edeiken out of business, despite the fact that she is every bit as much a member of the Shaklee team as she was then? The fact that you "won" the lawsuit you keep whining about wanting to have refiled? Or maybe the facts contained in the Findings of Fact which remain in force?
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In one age, called the Second Age by some, (an Age yet to come, an Age long past) someone claiming to be Barney Fife wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In one age, called the Second Age by some, (an Age yet to come, an Age long past) someone claiming to be Barney Fife wrote Classic Repost from May 6, 2001 You misspelled "Classic distortions having nothing whatever to do with the historical facts of the Holocaust" above, fatboy. HTH On the contrary, this post goes directly to the root of why anti-Semitism exists, ie: jews bring it upon themselves by practicing the perversions described by the above quote from the Talmud. And what is strange they don’t deny I am quoting actual Talmud texts- rather they claim I’m not interpreting them correctly!
Nope. The refutation contains both proof that you have quoted forgeries and that you have misinterpreted what actually *is* there. Filed that complaint yet?
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is notable that Idiotavish still haven’t responded to me. I have responded to you- you liar!! actual debate–he better not run away this time! Again, this is another case of Idiotavish’s demonstrable lie, since his bullshit has been refuted by me long ago: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&selm=aa65… And it is to this posting he didn’t respond.
That was your reply to my slam dunk of you as the archive above (and below) chronicles! You only repeated the same failed spin doctoring like a needle stuck in a groove of a skipping record! My material stands on its own merit and no amount of Jewish Chutzpa, dodges, or personal attack will refute it! http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=u626vv814v0dt9raqv17ede0h4536… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is also notable that all of Idiotavish’s claims about Talmud were carefully deconstructed by Harry Katz and others. Name call is not refuting me! What I posted stands on its own and I take note you didn’t attempt to refute it! Why, Harry Katz did it. http://groups.google.com.ru/groups?selm=356DB4D2.A2A307A6%40mci.com&o… http://groups.google.com.ru/groups?selm=357CB75E.FAD2ECC0%40mci.com&o… http://groups.google.com.ru/groups?selm=3A050E0C.D09E9437%40earthlink… http://groups.google.com.ru/groups?selm=3A0E468D.ED80F2FA%40earthlink… http://groups.google.com.ru/groups?selm=3A20B8F1.81EE2916%40earthlink…
All of the above are typical means of your type’s replies. You butcher the original post to change the original intent and then you liars comment on YOUR versions of what we post! I gave a classic example too! I.E. http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=u1in5torofaecj03ldl0cftpb16gc… Jeffrey Calls Them That is how Harry Katz refutes me! Honest people see the Pharisee method too! Tavish http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=5rhktv483m9oofgqt8goir93o4pm0… If Jews are allowed to call a historic event a "Holocaust" based on Jews being tortured, imprisoned, and executed by Nazis then why can’t Christians claim Jews had "Holocausts" against non-Jews/Christians seeing how the 1st Century Pharisees and the 20th Century Jewish led Bolshevists tortured, imprisoned, and executed Christians/non-Jews. Jews also deny these other "Holocausts" so going by their standards they are "Holocaust Deniers" and should be prosecuted for Holocaust Denial"and "Minimalizing the Holocaust[s])" as well! Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com – Accounts Starting At $6.95 – http://www.uncensored-news.com <<<<<<< The Worlds Uncensored News Source <<<<<<<<
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is notable that Idiotavish still haven’t responded to me. I have responded to you- you liar!! actual debate–he better not run away this time! Again, this is another case of Idiotavish’s demonstrable lie, since his bullshit has been refuted by me long ago: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&selm=aa65… And it is to this posting he didn’t respond. That was your reply to my slam dunk of you as the archive above (and below) chronicles!
You lie again. You still didn’t respond to my refutation of your lies: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&selm=aa65… Why, Harry Katz did it. http://groups.google.com.ru/groups?selm=356DB4D2.A2A307A6%40mci.com&o… http://groups.google.com.ru/groups?selm=357CB75E.FAD2ECC0%40mci.com&o… http://groups.google.com.ru/groups?selm=3A050E0C.D09E9437%40earthlink… http://groups.google.com.ru/groups?selm=3A0E468D.ED80F2FA%40earthlink… http://groups.google.com.ru/groups?selm=3A20B8F1.81EE2916%40earthlink… All of the above are typical means of your type’s replies. You butcher the original post to change the original intent and then you liars comment on YOUR versions of what we post!
All of the above refutes your lies about Talmud. Still no response from you for these particular postings.
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It is notable that Idiotavish still haven’t responded to me. I have responded to you- you liar!! … All of the above are typical means of your type’s replies. You butcher the original post to change the original intent and then you liars comment on YOUR versions of what we post! All of the above refutes your lies about Talmud. Still no response from you for these particular postings.
** You seem to be pretty knowledgeable about Talmud. Is there any advice therein regarding wives top-mounting their husbands? thanks. —
Question:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Whatever happened to that guy with AIDS who volunteered for an experimental procedure involving baboon bone marrow? I recall that they destroyed his bone marrow with radiation then injected marrow from a baboon. The theory was that baboons’ immune cells weren’t susceptible to HIV and that such a transplanted immune system would essentially cure the patient of AIDS. It seems like science fiction. And previous animal to human transplants have triggered lethal immune responses, but what would be the effect of an animal to human immune system transplant? concatenated
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Whatever happened to that guy with AIDS who volunteered for an experimental procedure involving baboon bone marrow? I recall that they destroyed his bone marrow with radiation then injected marrow from a baboon. The theory was that baboons’ immune cells weren’t susceptible to HIV and that such a transplanted immune system would essentially cure the patient of AIDS. It seems like science fiction. And previous animal to human transplants have triggered lethal immune responses, but what would be the effect of an animal to human immune system transplant?
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Whatever happened to that guy with AIDS who volunteered for an experimental procedure involving baboon bone marrow?
Jeff Getty. He’s around, but retired from AIDS activism. I recall that they destroyed his bone marrow with radiation then injected marrow from a baboon. The theory was that baboons’ immune cells weren’t susceptible to HIV and that such a transplanted immune system would essentially cure the patient of AIDS.
Yes. Didn’t work out that way, but something did occur–he wound up being somewhat healthier for unknown reasons. It seems like science fiction. And previous animal to human transplants have triggered lethal immune responses, but what would be the effect of an animal to human immune system transplant?
Very hard on the animal. B/
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Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Babbs and all, This is the one and only post I will ever put on here. I don’t have the guts, stamina, nor the will to deal with this disgusting display of vengence and anger. To vent and get it out of your system is one thing; to continue to disparage, harrass, embarrass, and humiliate another is something else entirely. Babbs, I agree with you 110%!!!! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!! Cease and Desist!! Grow up, forgive, move on, and be productive! As Babbs said, Pay It Forward!! Nothing is being accomplished by this public display of stupidity and ignorance. I personally have called and/or spoken with several of "us" involved here by telephone, and I am asking, requesting, pleading, begging again, here in public, on the board, STOP!!!!! Please…..that’s all I have to say, and that should be all anyone with any maturity and common sense should say; STOP!!! Take care and many blessings to you all, Carla – owner new england adoptions I also agree. Enough is enough, this is getting real old real fast. Searching is something that requires patience, kindness and human compassion, non of which are being demonstrated here. That is everyones common goal here….searching and finding…isnt it?? or is it to be rude and nasty ?? Lets put energy into searching and finding and know when to say enough is enough. Theresa
But what of the issue of someone telling a searcher (in private) that he or she is searching for all the wrong reasons and should go for therapy in order to get his or her mind put back on track? Do you not think this is wrong? Jackie
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Daria Delfalco – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Owner of Rossetto Bello inc.
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I do understand all the hurt and anger you all feel. And I also know this is the only means of defending yourselves here. I am not meaning to imply that you all don’t have reasons to be upset, just that maybe enough has been said and done? Soulwhisper
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maybe the damage is done, in which case maybe there is satisfaction now and you can all pack up your ammo and go home. If she has hurt you, hopefully knowing that you have hurt her is enough. And I wouldn’t be surprised if she committed suicide over all this. This is way beyond, and how would that make you feel, to know your anger and vendetta hurt someone so much that they couldn’t bear to live? You probably haven’t considered that inside even Bernice lives a heart capable of feeling pain, you have been too consumed over your own anger. Please people, put this to rest. You have destroyed the woman’s reputation, her groups credibility and her chance at ever being taken seriously as an activist in the adoption world. From now on, all of this will follow her, isn’t that enough?
I have to agree here….I think enough is enough! I for one would not want to be in Bernices shoes about now! The constant harassment and "flaming" has gone on long enough. I feel if all of this energy was put into something more constructive instead of public display of non affections….someone may actually help someone… I know alot of this stuff started over accusations and my (and others) ultimate decision to leave ALIA but enough is enough! (just one cog in the ever spinning wheel) Points have been made, feeling have been deeply deeply hurt to the point of no return… (I am sure)…but really enough is enough! It is time to put this baby to bed…although it has been highly amusing to a point..I for one have had enough… No one,,,and I do mean no one should have to endure all of this…i sure would not..and I am sure if you sit back and ponder a bit…you would not want to be in this place either. It is a horrible place to be in I am sure….some of you I know have been just there…wink wink….lets just move on and do what we do best..and that is help bring all these lost angels soaring back home. I’m not one to maliciously spread any gossip or hurt any one intentionally… those of you who know me know that I will bust my ass for you in helping you find your lost family…and I will ask nothing of you in return other than to Pay it Forwardif someone helps you do something nice for someone else….pay it forward!! great concept. Now lets let this CEASE and DESIST!!! enough is enough… I have no ill feelings towards anyone…I just move on…..and that is what I am asking all of you to do!!! Lets move on! please… babbs owner soaringangels
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Lipstick43 is nuts Dear Lipwhore
Greetings to all involved in this mess. I as an onlooker cannot help to be involved at this point. While I agree that this should come to a hault, I see so many group owners speaking on behalf of this woman Bernice,attempting to clear each others names, and attempting to make peace. Thats great,however I am here on behalf of my dear freind and employee Lipstik43, who also had taken the brunt of this. I admit that she too engaged in the bantering but if you really knew her you would know that she was treated all but fair. To read some of the names that (whoever this woman) are all but true and totally unacceptable. If everything is true about this Bernice woman, why isn t anything done about banishing her group? I ve seen none of these group owners repremand her for insulting my employee. Personally I feel this woman should personally apologize to my worker as it has also slandered my cosmetic company. Lipstik #43 is a shade of lipstick, as my employees took on different products and numbers as their screen names. I know in my heart of hearts that my dear freind will cease participation in this side show if proper apologies were made(not just an unmeaningful "lets start over" type of thing). Let me assure you that I will urge my employees to refrain from any negative postings henceforth, as many have gotten involved in an effort to defend their co worker. I thank you for your time and trust that all will be rectified promptly. Sincerely, Daria Delfalco Owner of Rossetto Bello inc.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Babbs and all, This is the one and only post I will ever put on here. I don’t have the guts, stamina, nor the will to deal with this disgusting display of vengence and anger. To vent and get it out of your system is one thing; to continue to disparage, harrass, embarrass, and humiliate another is something else entirely. Babbs, I agree with you 110%!!!! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!! Cease and Desist!! Grow up, forgive, move on, and be productive! As Babbs said, Pay It Forward!! Nothing is being accomplished by this public display of stupidity and ignorance. I personally have called and/or spoken with several of "us" involved here by telephone, and I am asking, requesting, pleading, begging again, here in public, on the board, STOP!!!!! Please…..that’s all I have to say, and that should be all anyone with any maturity and common sense should say; STOP!!! Take care and many blessings to you all, Carla – owner new england adoptions
I also agree. Enough is enough, this is getting real old real fast. Searching is something that requires patience, kindness and human compassion, non of which are being demonstrated here. That is everyones common goal here….searching and finding…isnt it?? or is it to be rude and nasty ?? Lets put energy into searching and finding and know when to say enough is enough. Theresa
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have to agree here….I think enough is enough! I for one would not want to be in Bernices shoes about now! The constant harassment and "flaming" has gone on long enough. I feel if all of this energy was put into something more constructive instead of public display of non affections….someone may actually help someone… I know alot of this stuff started over accusations and my (and others) ultimate decision to leave ALIA but enough is enough! (just one cog in the ever spinning wheel) Points have been made, feeling have been deeply deeply hurt to the point of no return… (I am sure)…but really enough is enough! It is time to put this baby to bed…although it has been highly amusing to a point..I for one have had enough… No one,,,and I do mean no one should have to endure all of this…i sure would not..and I am sure if you sit back and ponder a bit…you would not want to be in this place either. It is a horrible place to be in I am sure….some of you I know have been just there…wink wink….lets just move on and do what we do best..and that is help bring all these lost angels soaring back home. I’m not one to maliciously spread any gossip or hurt any one intentionally… those of you who know me know that I will bust my ass for you in helping you find your lost family…and I will ask nothing of you in return other than to Pay it Forwardif someone helps you do something nice for someone else….pay it forward!! great concept. Now lets let this CEASE and DESIST!!! enough is enough… I have no ill feelings towards anyone…I just move on…..and that is what I am asking all of you to do!!! Lets move on! please… babbs owner soaringangels
Babbs and all, This is the one and only post I will ever put on here. I don’t have the guts, stamina, nor the will to deal with this disgusting display of vengence and anger. To vent and get it out of your system is one thing; to continue to disparage, harrass, embarrass, and humiliate another is something else entirely. Babbs, I agree with you 110%!!!! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!! Cease and Desist!! Grow up, forgive, move on, and be productive! As Babbs said, Pay It Forward!! Nothing is being accomplished by this public display of stupidity and ignorance. I personally have called and/or spoken with several of "us" involved here by telephone, and I am asking, requesting, pleading, begging again, here in public, on the board, STOP!!!!! Please…..that’s all I have to say, and that should be all anyone with any maturity and common sense should say; STOP!!! Take care and many blessings to you all, Carla – owner new england adoptions
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Soulwhisper would be Ruthie…as we all know.. Its funny how all of a sudden she is here trying to defend somebody that wasn t even mentioned Nobody said anything about Carla. Bernice and Ruthie were the culprits. So if anything Ruthie and Bernice are bringing her into the mix. Now another thing that doesn t cease to amaze me….Bernice comes here and writes all this bs and starts all this trouble here after back stabbing and hurting people, then the nex thing is to say that somebody is using her name , they hacked into her computer and her don t care about what she does to people or how she hurts others who also have hearts but everybody is supossed to feel bad for her. Sorry Hon but I don t nor do I feel bad for Top Mod. What it was ok when" Top Mod Ruthie" and "Her Largeness Bernice" hurt my feelings bashing me at AL:IA because I claimed loyalty to my amomma. Sorry but no sympathy comming from me – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
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There is a simple way to help all of this . All that is required is a public apology addressed to all who have been insulted and an admission of using poor judgement against people . Not that that would change the way people view the group owner and some of the moderators completely but it would help to clear the good names of those who were trashed in the first place , not once , not twice but on numerous occasions . If people had not been ripped apart and lied about on many boards maybe this would never have happened in the first place . How is it that these people can ruin the names of good people , harass them through email and by phone calls but now all of a sudden they are the horrible people ? Freedom is won through war , sorry , maybe these people feel that way . Some may have gotten carried away in their choice of words but it stems from hurt feelings and as the other post in defense of her group said , hearts that were broken . What about the hearts and feelings of probably one hundred people ? Do they not count here ? I say to the real Bernice : Write an apology for things that were done not only by you but your moderators and send it here . Do not go into they said this ,they did that ,simply say I have made mistakes and so did others . Let`s try to get past this for the good of the triad and after the letter , drop it and everyone try to get back to the way it was . This could be stopped very easily by all with a simple apology in public . I would imagine that people would agree that this is not too much to ask and the apology may be extended back . Now how grown up can we all be ? What a novel idea , be grown up and admit to being wrong . How hard is that ? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Soulwhisper, I do recall seeing you on Bernice’s group and I was wondering WHEN and IF someone would come on here and defend Bernice. To date, nobody but YOU has and I wonder why? Supposedly, Bernice is at home crying her little eyeballs out because "everybody is picking on her" and is now stating "Yes, I did do some bad things to people." Well hell, I say come on HERE Bernice or write to the individuals you have hurt privately….the people that you have lied about and backstabbed in your midnight chats. Right off the top of my head, I can name 10 people that Bernice has hurt or ran off for no apparent reason. She plays both sides of the Fence but since you are or perhaps WERE on her group, you don’t see that. She has called some of her very own search angels "drunks" behind their backs but when they asked Bernice about this, they got no response by email or otherwise from her. I consider this guilt, wouldn’t you? She has lied, then told more lies to cover up those lies. She owes money to Terry Moore for a generator, a new TV and for an electrical bill that Terry paid for her but instead of paying her, she spread horrible filthy untruths about Terry, who is now bedridden and in a wheelchair. And YOU are worried that Bernice would commit suicide? I highly doubt that someone who has no conscience and hurt and lie about others over and over again would care this time about things stated about her and her group, ALIA. If she is going to log onto the internet and hurt others in cyberspace, she best prepare herself for the consequences, IMHO. If Bernice was any kind of a human being at all, she would either email each and every individual she has backstabbed and lied to or come on here and admit her wrong doings, but do you think she will do that? Hell no, she has no backbone, plus she will turn around and do it again. Once a liar, always a liar. It would take years of psychotherapy to untangle her mess but she has to want to help herself, which she is unwilling to do. Also, nothing was said negative here about Carla, only that Carla was someone who was talked about by Bernice. Nothing negative was spewed about Carla at all that I can recall or see in the archives of these newsgroups. Bernice? Lipstick and all, I don’t happen to believe the person here is Bernice, but rather someone who is having an awful lot of fun at Bernice’s expense. But whoever you are, I have come here to make a statement. I have read all of the complaints and accusations, and I think this is quite a display. Instead of keeping it on one thread, it has been spread across several in an attempt to completely destroy another human being. What could anyone do to deserve this much? I don’t know all the facts, and I don’t want to know, but I just find it hard to believe that people can spend so much energy and time on hatred. What you are really stating is that Bernice has power, and that power is over you. You are allowing her to control you through your emotions and reactions. If she is really so horrible, why give her so much of yourself? Maybe the damage is done, in which case maybe there is satisfaction now and you can all pack up your ammo and go home. If she has hurt you, hopefully knowing that you have hurt her is enough. No one could escape hurting when they have been publicly lynched in such a way. And I wouldn’t be surprised if she committed suicide over all this. This is way beyond, and how would that make you feel, to know your anger and vendetta hurt someone so much that they couldn’t bear to live? You probably haven’t considered that inside even Bernice lives a heart capable of feeling pain, you have been too consumed over your own anger. Please people, put this to rest. You have destroyed the woman’s reputation, her groups credibility and her chance at ever being taken seriously as an activist in the adoption world. From now on, all of this will follow her, isn’t that enough? I really came here for another reason, I didn’t mean to say so much about Bernice’s situation. I guess I just got caught up in wondering how I would feel in Bernice’s position and felt the need to say something. I came here because someone else I know and care about is being slandered and brought into this mess on a public board. That someone would be Carla. Carla is many things, I could probably write a book on all her many wonderful qualities but I will keep it brief and simply state that she is compassionate, forgiving, generous, caring, funny, sensitive, loyal, trustworthy and considerate. She is respectful of others and she has class. Carla extends herself on a daily basis to help, to encourage and assist adoptees who are searching, and above all these things, Carla is my friend. Carla is not a liar, she has no need to spread gossip and treachery, or to say scathing or untrue things about anyone. As you told it yourself Bernice? and I quote " Carla who knows " If Carla says something, yes, it is because she knows. SoulWhisper
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Ahh, excuse me, Lesli, if this is you, she called YOU a drunk too. She also said you were NUTS. Didn’t she chase you off her group as well? She was in hog heavn when you had some type if disagreement with Melanie some months back and was laughing her butt off when you and she parted ways. She’s just plain evil. Any person with any character or backbone, who supposedly is sitting home crying their eyes out, yet admitting she DID screw over a few people should at least have the backbone to email those people and apologize. Will she do it? Highly doubtful. I truly don’t believe she is capable of changing without any type of professional help. Sad, but true. Best indications of future behavior are past behavior, unless that is, the person decides to SEEK help and change on their own. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Bernice? Lipstick and all, I don’t happen to believe the person here is Bernice, but rather someone who is having an awful lot of fun at Bernice’s expense. But whoever you are, I have come here to make a statement. I have read all of the complaints and accusations, and I think this is quite a display. Instead of keeping it on one thread, it has been spread across several in an attempt to completely destroy another human being. What could anyone do to deserve this much? I don’t know all the facts, and I don’t want to know, but I just find it hard to believe that people can spend so much energy and time on hatred. What you are really stating is that Bernice has power, and that power is over you. You are allowing her to control you through your emotions and reactions. If she is really so horrible, why give her so much of yourself? Maybe the damage is done, in which case maybe there is satisfaction now and you can all pack up your ammo and go home. If she has hurt you, hopefully knowing that you have hurt her is enough. No one could escape hurting when they have been publicly lynched in such a way. And I wouldn’t be surprised if she committed suicide over all this. This is way beyond, and how would that make you feel, to know your anger and vendetta hurt someone so much that they couldn’t bear to live? You probably haven’t considered that inside even Bernice lives a heart capable of feeling pain, you have been too consumed over your own anger. Please people, put this to rest. You have destroyed the woman’s reputation, her groups credibility and her chance at ever being taken seriously as an activist in the adoption world. From now on, all of this will follow her, isn’t that enough? I really came here for another reason, I didn’t mean to say so much about Bernice’s situation. I guess I just got caught up in wondering how I would feel in Bernice’s position and felt the need to say something. I came here because someone else I know and care about is being slandered and brought into this mess on a public board. That someone would be Carla. Carla is many things, I could probably write a book on all her many wonderful qualities but I will keep it brief and simply state that she is compassionate, forgiving, generous, caring, funny, sensitive, loyal, trustworthy and considerate. She is respectful of others and she has class. Carla extends herself on a daily basis to help, to encourage and assist adoptees who are searching, and above all these things, Carla is my friend. Carla is not a liar, she has no need to spread gossip and treachery, or to say scathing or untrue things about anyone. As you told it yourself Bernice? and I quote " Carla who knows " If Carla says something, yes, it is because she knows. SoulWhisper
Response:
Owner of Angels Lost In Adoption and More Finds than any other internet group!
I’ve been reading about Angles Lost in Adoption all this time… Echoes of Flatland. Did Heaven lose their maps?
Response:
Soulwhisper, I do recall seeing you on Bernice’s group and I was wondering WHEN and IF someone would come on here and defend Bernice. To date, nobody but YOU has and I wonder why? Supposedly, Bernice is at home crying her little eyeballs out because "everybody is picking on her" and is now stating "Yes, I did do some bad things to people." Well hell, I say come on HERE Bernice or write to the individuals you have hurt privately….the people that you have lied about and backstabbed in your midnight chats. Right off the top of my head, I can name 10 people that Bernice has hurt or ran off for no apparent reason. She plays both sides of the Fence but since you are or perhaps WERE on her group, you don’t see that. She has called some of her very own search angels "drunks" behind their backs but when they asked Bernice about this, they got no response by email or otherwise from her. I consider this guilt, wouldn’t you? She has lied, then told more lies to cover up those lies. She owes money to Terry Moore for a generator, a new TV and for an electrical bill that Terry paid for her but instead of paying her, she spread horrible filthy untruths about Terry, who is now bedridden and in a wheelchair. And YOU are worried that Bernice would commit suicide? I highly doubt that someone who has no conscience and hurt and lie about others over and over again would care this time about things stated about her and her group, ALIA. If she is going to log onto the internet and hurt others in cyberspace, she best prepare herself for the consequences, IMHO. If Bernice was any kind of a human being at all, she would either email each and every individual she has backstabbed and lied to or come on here and admit her wrong doings, but do you think she will do that? Hell no, she has no backbone, plus she will turn around and do it again. Once a liar, always a liar. It would take years of psychotherapy to untangle her mess but she has to want to help herself, which she is unwilling to do. Also, nothing was said negative here about Carla, only that Carla was someone who was talked about by Bernice. Nothing negative was spewed about Carla at all that I can recall or see in the archives of these newsgroups. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Bernice? Lipstick and all, I don’t happen to believe the person here is Bernice, but rather someone who is having an awful lot of fun at Bernice’s expense. But whoever you are, I have come here to make a statement. I have read all of the complaints and accusations, and I think this is quite a display. Instead of keeping it on one thread, it has been spread across several in an attempt to completely destroy another human being. What could anyone do to deserve this much? I don’t know all the facts, and I don’t want to know, but I just find it hard to believe that people can spend so much energy and time on hatred. What you are really stating is that Bernice has power, and that power is over you. You are allowing her to control you through your emotions and reactions. If she is really so horrible, why give her so much of yourself? Maybe the damage is done, in which case maybe there is satisfaction now and you can all pack up your ammo and go home. If she has hurt you, hopefully knowing that you have hurt her is enough. No one could escape hurting when they have been publicly lynched in such a way. And I wouldn’t be surprised if she committed suicide over all this. This is way beyond, and how would that make you feel, to know your anger and vendetta hurt someone so much that they couldn’t bear to live? You probably haven’t considered that inside even Bernice lives a heart capable of feeling pain, you have been too consumed over your own anger. Please people, put this to rest. You have destroyed the woman’s reputation, her groups credibility and her chance at ever being taken seriously as an activist in the adoption world. From now on, all of this will follow her, isn’t that enough? I really came here for another reason, I didn’t mean to say so much about Bernice’s situation. I guess I just got caught up in wondering how I would feel in Bernice’s position and felt the need to say something. I came here because someone else I know and care about is being slandered and brought into this mess on a public board. That someone would be Carla. Carla is many things, I could probably write a book on all her many wonderful qualities but I will keep it brief and simply state that she is compassionate, forgiving, generous, caring, funny, sensitive, loyal, trustworthy and considerate. She is respectful of others and she has class. Carla extends herself on a daily basis to help, to encourage and assist adoptees who are searching, and above all these things, Carla is my friend. Carla is not a liar, she has no need to spread gossip and treachery, or to say scathing or untrue things about anyone. As you told it yourself Bernice? and I quote " Carla who knows " If Carla says something, yes, it is because she knows. SoulWhisper
Response:
Did you know that a couple of winters back, Bernice had her electricity shut off for non-payment? She had a generator (courtesy of Terry Moore – Bernice never made good on her promise to pay her back either) running though so she could log onto her Web-TV. Can you believe that sh*t? Freezing her ass off, wrapped in blankets but GOTTA have that Web-TV going. Tells you where the true priorities of an ignoramous are. Terry also sent her money so that she and her husband could eat since Bernice didn’t have her son working at Walmart to pay all the bills and buy all the food then. Bernice never paid Terry back, instead spreading lies that Terry STOLE money (donations) from other members. How’s that for a true friend? Yep, we got Bernice above, owner and moderator of ALIA and Top Mod Ruth who relinquished or lost custody of EIGHT kids. That’s the mentality of ALIA. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -My mods and me will see to it that you and some others are thrown off the internet just wait and see. Ya Right everybody is going to listen to Bernice Almighty with her $9.95 per month Web TV subscription. All the ISPs are going to trow all theeir subcribers off cause Bernice says so. I don t think so Hon, your not that powerful Lets talk dollars and "sense" here for a minute you misfit, their not going to stop their cash flow for you when people pay all kinds of money for broadband. It would make more sense for you to get off the WWW sinse your so outnumbered you fruitcake
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Bernice? Lipstick and all, I don’t happen to believe the person here is Bernice, but rather someone who is having an awful lot of fun at Bernice’s expense. But whoever you are, I have come here to make a statement. I have read all of the complaints and accusations, and I think this is quite a display. Instead of keeping it on one thread, it has been spread across several in an attempt to completely destroy another human being. What could anyone do to deserve this much? I don’t know all the facts, and I don’t want to know, but I just find it hard to believe that people can spend so much energy and time on hatred. What you are really stating is that Bernice has power, and that power is over you. You are allowing her to control you through your emotions and reactions. If she is really so horrible, why give her so much of yourself? Maybe the damage is done, in which case maybe there is satisfaction now and you can all pack up your ammo and go home. If she has hurt you, hopefully knowing that you have hurt her is enough. No one could escape hurting when they have been publicly lynched in such a way. And I wouldn’t be surprised if she committed suicide over all this. This is way beyond, and how would that make you feel, to know your anger and vendetta hurt someone so much that they couldn’t bear to live? You probably haven’t considered that inside even Bernice lives a heart capable of feeling pain, you have been too consumed over your own anger. Please people, put this to rest. You have destroyed the woman’s reputation, her groups credibility and her chance at ever being taken seriously as an activist in the adoption world. From now on, all of this will follow her, isn’t that enough? I really came here for another reason, I didn’t mean to say so much about Bernice’s situation. I guess I just got caught up in wondering how I would feel in Bernice’s position and felt the need to say something. I came here because someone else I know and care about is being slandered and brought into this mess on a public board. That someone would be Carla. Carla is many things, I could probably write a book on all her many wonderful qualities but I will keep it brief and simply state that she is compassionate, forgiving, generous, caring, funny, sensitive, loyal, trustworthy and considerate. She is respectful of others and she has class. Carla extends herself on a daily basis to help, to encourage and assist adoptees who are searching, and above all these things, Carla is my friend. Carla is not a liar, she has no need to spread gossip and treachery, or to say scathing or untrue things about anyone. As you told it yourself Bernice? and I quote " Carla who knows " If Carla says something, yes, it is because she knows. SoulWhisper
Response:
College hell, Bernie would have to get her GED first. She’s a ninth-grade drop out. Can’t you tell by her spelling and such? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are so right . She joined a forum that I am on and when everyone asked her position in the triad she disappeared . Several of us checked her out and we all came up with the same things . She is into money making ideas and was never heard of until August of this year on any board anywhere . It figures that she would wind up at ALIA because they had no one to do searches after kicking off all of the searchers . Back when Bernice started her group she used the Mending Broken Wings name to spring off of because Mary was well known . Ann Wilmer had told Bernice that she was out to make a name for herself and that building numbers of people was not the way to appear as someone who cared about finds . Bernice thought she would be the GRC Rep for W . VA . but that is a title for only someone who is a college grad and has a background that will help in activism . She was the only person in the history of groups to have the gall to kick Rema off her group and did it because Rema asked her why she was building a Colorado group . How big do you think you are when you kick Rema off your group ? She also kicked Kerrylynn off her group and said who wants another drunk on their group anyway . Terry Moore felt sorry for her and took up money to help her get her lights on and used her credit card to buy Bernice a new t . v . so that she could hook up her webtv . She also bought her a new generator to use until the whopping thousand dollar light bill could be paid off . Terry is disabled and is bedbound now and was near it then , yet she pooled money for someone she felt sorry for . The rest is in the next post , please read on . Well, good thing you’re not there anymore. Bernice’s "Wonder Search claims to be an "expert searcher" but has been asking people for birth indexes and giving out bad advice for different states. Come to find out, she’s over with that other dysfunctional nutgroup at Adoption.com (where all the moderators are facilitators or paid searchers) where she advertises expertise at both "finding families" and also helping facilitate adoptions. Not a wonder her Yahoo Profile at jmdizell1 reads she is into making money and business opportunities. You got one thing in common with Grandma’s Group Bernice: You are both now endorsing a moron who popped up out of nowhere two months ago claiming to be a "search expert" except for the fact that she has NO search experience, is not a triad members and belongs to groups that endorce adoption faciliator services. Since you probably don’t know what this means, Big Bern, it means in some cases, the buying and selling of adoptive babies. Facilitators pocket HUGE amounts of money for finding babies for desperate people who will pay almost anything to find a child. BERNICE YOUR THE FREAKIN JOKE LMAO
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Bernice then tells everyone that Terry kept the money and everyone turns on Terry including Kerrylynn . I saw a copy of her reciepts for everything including the money orders that she mailed the entire amount to Bernice with . Terry raises money in her local town for needy families and that can be proven by many who donate because of her efforts . This woman will stop at nothing to be " on top " and will walk over anyone to get there and stay there . When the heat rises they fabricate stories to make everyone feel sorry for them . The latest is that they were all being called and threatened when the truth is that started after Mary`s attorney had to call people there who were harassing her . They caused her screen name to be taken down at yahoo and she now has proof of who did it . Her attorney will also handle that . Bernice blames anyone she can for her problems . First one moderator then another . How sad is that ? They have to guard themselves and each other and make up one lie after another to cover the last one . They claim they have called the state to get boards removed . The truth is there is enough evidence to get charges on all of them and that will be done if they persist . What goes around comes around . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, good thing you’re not there anymore. Bernice’s "Wonder Search claims to be an "expert searcher" but has been asking people for birth indexes and giving out bad advice for different states. Come to find out, she’s over with that other dysfunctional nutgroup at Adoption.com (where all the moderators are facilitators or paid searchers) where she advertises expertise at both "finding families" and also helping facilitate adoptions. Not a wonder her Yahoo Profile at jmdizell1 reads she is into making money and business opportunities. You got one thing in common with Grandma’s Group Bernice: You are both now endorsing a moron who popped up out of nowhere two months ago claiming to be a "search expert" except for the fact that she has NO search experience, is not a triad members and belongs to groups that endorce adoption faciliator services. Since you probably don’t know what this means, Big Bern, it means in some cases, the buying and selling of adoptive babies. Facilitators pocket HUGE amounts of money for finding babies for desperate people who will pay almost anything to find a child. BERNICE YOUR THE FREAKIN JOKE LMAO
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BERNICE YOUR THE FREAKIN JOKE LMAO
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Well, good thing you’re not there anymore. Bernice’s "Wonder Search claims to be an "expert searcher" but has been asking people for birth indexes and giving out bad advice for different states. Come to find out, she’s over with that other dysfunctional nutgroup at Adoption.com (where all the moderators are facilitators or paid searchers) where she advertises expertise at both "finding families" and also helping facilitate adoptions. Not a wonder her Yahoo Profile at jmdizell1 reads she is into making money and business opportunities. You got one thing in common with Grandma’s Group Bernice: You are both now endorsing a moron who popped up out of nowhere two months ago claiming to be a "search expert" except for the fact that she has NO search experience, is not a triad members and belongs to groups that endorce adoption faciliator services. Since you probably don’t know what this means, Big Bern, it means in some cases, the buying and selling of adoptive babies. Facilitators pocket HUGE amounts of money for finding babies for desperate people who will pay almost anything to find a child. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -BERNICE YOUR THE FREAKIN JOKE LMAO
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You are so right . She joined a forum that I am on and when everyone asked her position in the triad she disappeared . Several of us checked her out and we all came up with the same things . She is into money making ideas and was never heard of until August of this year on any board anywhere . It figures that she would wind up at ALIA because they had no one to do searches after kicking off all of the searchers . Back when Bernice started her group she used the Mending Broken Wings name to spring off of because Mary was well known . Ann Wilmer had told Bernice that she was out to make a name for herself and that building numbers of people was not the way to appear as someone who cared about finds . Bernice thought she would be the GRC Rep for W . VA . but that is a title for only someone who is a college grad and has a background that will help in activism . She was the only person in the history of groups to have the gall to kick Rema off her group and did it because Rema asked her why she was building a Colorado group . How big do you think you are when you kick Rema off your group ? She also kicked Kerrylynn off her group and said who wants another drunk on their group anyway . Terry Moore felt sorry for her and took up money to help her get her lights on and used her credit card to buy Bernice a new t . v . so that she could hook up her webtv . She also bought her a new generator to use until the whopping thousand dollar light bill could be paid off . Terry is disabled and is bedbound now and was near it then , yet she pooled money for someone she felt sorry for . The rest is in the next post , please read on . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, good thing you’re not there anymore. Bernice’s "Wonder Search claims to be an "expert searcher" but has been asking people for birth indexes and giving out bad advice for different states. Come to find out, she’s over with that other dysfunctional nutgroup at Adoption.com (where all the moderators are facilitators or paid searchers) where she advertises expertise at both "finding families" and also helping facilitate adoptions. Not a wonder her Yahoo Profile at jmdizell1 reads she is into making money and business opportunities. You got one thing in common with Grandma’s Group Bernice: You are both now endorsing a moron who popped up out of nowhere two months ago claiming to be a "search expert" except for the fact that she has NO search experience, is not a triad members and belongs to groups that endorce adoption faciliator services. Since you probably don’t know what this means, Big Bern, it means in some cases, the buying and selling of adoptive babies. Facilitators pocket HUGE amounts of money for finding babies for desperate people who will pay almost anything to find a child. BERNICE YOUR THE FREAKIN JOKE LMAO
Response:
says… snip You caused trouble on my group ALIA and now you cause it on this board. I have complained to the state attorney general about this board and it will be taken down and that’s a fact!
<chuckle Yeah, right Robyn Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster #1557
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Rolling on the floor, laughing my ass off! This has to be one of funniest posts made here in a long time! And which state attorney general would that be? I do have one question for you Bernice. It seems to me, based on what is posted here, that your ‘mods’ do all the work on your group, what exactly is your function there?
I think she’s the grand poooh baaaaa… She sure sounds powerful… Jackie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Lipwhore,you got your facts all wrong me and my group is not being invistigated by the Police because if this was the truth I would have closed down my group. I dont know where you get your facts from maybe that liar Carla who knows but my group did nothing wrong. My mod Ruth is screening members to keep troublemakrs like you out so you can stick that where the sun dont shine sister. You caused trouble on my group ALIA and now you cause it on this board. I have complained to the state attorney general about this board and it will be taken down and that’s a fact! My mods and me will see to it that you and some others are thrown off the internet just wait and see. Bernice Owner of Angels Lost In Adoption and More Finds than any other internet group!
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I have complained to the state attorney general about this board and it will be taken down and that’s a fact!
You are going to take down alt.adoption? Goodness.. I am in awe.. Jackie
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She is the resident moron . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Rolling on the floor, laughing my ass off! This has to be one of funniest posts made here in a long time! And which state attorney general would that be? I do have one question for you Bernice. It seems to me, based on what is posted here, that your ‘mods’ do all the work on your group, what exactly is your function there? Dear Lipwhore,you got your facts all wrong me and my group is not being invistigated by the Police because if this was the truth I would have closed down my group. I dont know where you get your facts from maybe that liar Carla who knows but my group did nothing wrong. My mod Ruth is screening members to keep troublemakrs like you out so you can stick that where the sun dont shine sister. You caused trouble on my group ALIA and now you cause it on this board. I have complained to the state attorney general about this board and it will be taken down and that’s a fact! My mods and me will see to it that you and some others are thrown off the internet just wait and see. Bernice Owner of Angels Lost In Adoption and More Finds than any other internet group!
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Dear Lipwhore,you got your facts all wrong me and my group is not being invistigated by the Police because if this was the truth I would have closed down my group. I dont know where you get your facts from maybe that liar Carla who knows but my group did nothing wrong. My mod Ruth is screening members to keep troublemakrs like you out so you can stick that where the sun dont shine sister. You caused trouble on my group ALIA and now you cause it on this board. I have complained to the state attorney general about this board and it will be taken down and that’s a fact! My mods and me will see to it that you and some others are thrown off the internet just wait and see. Bernice Owner of Angels Lost In Adoption and More Finds than any other internet group!
Response:
Rolling on the floor, laughing my ass off! This has to be one of funniest posts made here in a long time! And which state attorney general would that be? I do have one question for you Bernice. It seems to me, based on what is posted here, that your ‘mods’ do all the work on your group, what exactly is your function there?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Lipwhore,you got your facts all wrong me and my group is not being invistigated by the Police because if this was the truth I would have closed down my group. I dont know where you get your facts from maybe that liar Carla who knows but my group did nothing wrong. My mod Ruth is screening members to keep troublemakrs like you out so you can stick that where the sun dont shine sister. You caused trouble on my group ALIA and now you cause it on this board. I have complained to the state attorney general about this board and it will be taken down and that’s a fact! My mods and me will see to it that you and some others are thrown off the internet just wait and see. Bernice Owner of Angels Lost In Adoption and More Finds than any other internet group!
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Question:
Israeli Helicopters Kill Two Hamas Activists In Gaza
Yep, slowly making their way through the scum, more to follow until you clowns start cleaning out your own nests.
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That’s great news! Thanks!
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Dr. Ibrahim el-Masdr, Al-Aqsa Hospital Director, identified the martyrs as Abdullah Akel, 35, and Farid Mayat, 40, both members of Hamas military wing Ezz el-Dine el-Qassam Brigades. "I saw martyr Akel running from the car but the Israeli helicopters chased him with missiles until they killed him," Hashash said.
A new type of martyr. Ones that rides in Peugots, sans suicide belt. Are all Hamas members automatically given ‘martyr’ status? Are all Muslims also so auto-entitled? Are they all just walking death machines? Terrorism (shiver).
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Israeli Helicopters Kill Two Hamas Activists
cool word, "activists". You mean, they were sorta like peaceful protesters? Please do explain their activism in detail, will you?
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Hurray for the IDF. Congratulations.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. Israeli Helicopters Kill Two Hamas Activists In Gaza By Yasser Al-Banna, IOL Correspondent GAZA CITY, August 30 (IslamOnline.net) – U.S.-made Israeli Apache helicopters fired four missiles at a car in al-Bureij refugee camp in the central Gaza Strip Saturday, August 30, killing two members of the Palestinian resistance movement Hamas and wounding a third. Under cover of F-16s, Israeli helicopter gunships shelled the Peugeot while driving through Salah el-Dine street, reported IslamOnline.net correspondent. Dr. Ibrahim el-Masdr, Al-Aqsa Hospital Director, identified the martyrs as Abdullah Akel, 35, and Farid Mayat, 40, both members of Hamas military wing Ezz el-Dine el-Qassam Brigades. Hassan el-Hashash, an eyewitness, told IOL he heard massive explosions on the camp outskirts and when he rushed to the place, he saw the Israeli Apaches firing at the Peugeot. He said one of the three resistance activists was instantly killed inside the vehicle. "I saw martyr Akel running from the car but the Israeli helicopters chased him with missiles until they killed him," Hashash said. He added that the third Palestinian, who sustained moderate injuries, managed to flee and the Israelis failed to hunt him down. The two deaths bring the total killed since the start of the Palestinian Intifada in September 2000 to 3,439, including 2,578 Palestinians and 800 Israelis, according to an AFP count. The new assassination is the fifth against Hamas activists in the past week. On Thursday, August 28, an Israeli helicopter killed Hamdi Kalakh, 24-year-old Hamas member, and wounded three bystanders near Khan Yunis. Israeli helicopter gunships fired five missiles into a car in western Gaza late Sunday, August 24, killing four Hamas activists and wounding five others. On Thursday, August 21, Israel assassinated senior Hamas political leader Ismail Abu Shanab, triggering retaliation threats from the group. The incessant Israeli aggressions prompted Hamas and the Islamic Jihad movement to call off the unilateral truce they declared on June 29. Israeli army chief of staff Lt. Gen. Moshe Yaalon said Sunday, August 24, that "every member of Hamas is a potential target for liquidation." http://www.islamonline.net
Response:
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. Israeli Helicopters Kill Two Hamas Activists In Gaza By Yasser Al-Banna, IOL Correspondent GAZA CITY, August 30 (IslamOnline.net) – U.S.-made Israeli Apache helicopters fired four missiles at a car in al-Bureij refugee camp in the central Gaza Strip Saturday, August 30, killing two members of the Palestinian resistance movement Hamas and wounding a third. Under cover of F-16s, Israeli helicopter gunships shelled the Peugeot while driving through Salah el-Dine street, reported IslamOnline.net correspondent. Dr. Ibrahim el-Masdr, Al-Aqsa Hospital Director, identified the martyrs as Abdullah Akel, 35, and Farid Mayat, 40, both members of Hamas military wing Ezz el-Dine el-Qassam Brigades. Hassan el-Hashash, an eyewitness, told IOL he heard massive explosions on the camp outskirts and when he rushed to the place, he saw the Israeli Apaches firing at the Peugeot. He said one of the three resistance activists was instantly killed inside the vehicle. "I saw martyr Akel running from the car but the Israeli helicopters chased him with missiles until they killed him," Hashash said. He added that the third Palestinian, who sustained moderate injuries, managed to flee and the Israelis failed to hunt him down. The two deaths bring the total killed since the start of the Palestinian Intifada in September 2000 to 3,439, including 2,578 Palestinians and 800 Israelis, according to an AFP count. The new assassination is the fifth against Hamas activists in the past week. On Thursday, August 28, an Israeli helicopter killed Hamdi Kalakh, 24-year-old Hamas member, and wounded three bystanders near Khan Yunis. Israeli helicopter gunships fired five missiles into a car in western Gaza late Sunday, August 24, killing four Hamas activists and wounding five others. On Thursday, August 21, Israel assassinated senior Hamas political leader Ismail Abu Shanab, triggering retaliation threats from the group. The incessant Israeli aggressions prompted Hamas and the Islamic Jihad movement to call off the unilateral truce they declared on June 29. Israeli army chief of staff Lt. Gen. Moshe Yaalon said Sunday, August 24, that "every member of Hamas is a potential target for liquidation." http://www.islamonline.net
Response:
Question:
I was there for the first through eighth legislative day. I prayed at table with deputies; I worshipped in the Convention Center with them and a thousand other visitors; I spoke to laity, priests, and bishops I agreed with, and laity, priests, and bishops I disagreed with. I watched many vote happens. My rector voted on all the resolutions that came before the House of Deputies, and spoke to our parish today about the experience. The Holy Spirit was there and active–and it would be far from me to attempt to delineate all the ways in which the Spirit moved there. But move S/He did. MaryO
Well OK, but what can I say about it except to repeat that maybe there is Hope? As usual, though, I can think of something to say easily enough, and it goes like this: the Minneapolis minority mostly talked about FAITH — the _first_ of the theological virtues. The Minneapolis majority mostly talked about CHARITY, the _greatest_ of the theological virtues, as St. Paul says, and who is to contradict St. Paul? HOPE, being neither the first nor the greatest, seems to have been mislaid in the shuffle somewhere. But if Dr. Rowan Williams can somehow magically in October talk both sides into everybody Anglican giving HOPE a proper chance, who knows? maybe the _via media_ can survive after all. Happy days. –JHM PS. As regards Robinson of New Hampshire, I’ve encountered the "hopeful" theory that he’ll be summoned to Canterbury and then strong-armed into _nolo episcopari_ like Canon Jeffrey John seems to have been. Not my notion at all! I fantasize Dr. Williams calling everybody together and then taking Robinson’s episcopal character for granted as a clear-cut administrative matter, a matter settled once and for all by the people who had every right to settle it, and only after that going on to expound the Ecclesiology of HOPE. But what the devil do _I_ know? I’m a very, very lapsed Episcopalian, not to mention _laicisissimus_.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If a heterosexual couple is living in sin outside of marriage, and they decide to get married, the Priest will require them to repent of the sin and live a celibate life apart from each the other for a time before the marriage takes place. If they refuse, and the marriage is not granted, where does the fault lie? Is the Priest truly responsible for their sin? This is not the practice of the Episcopal Church in the United States. It once was, and would still be if the ECUSA was serious about scripture. Nevertheless, you do not answer the question posed.
In Western Christian theology, the ministers of the sacrament of holy matrimony are the couple themselves. They marry each other. The priest serves as a witness and provides the church’s blessing. So the priest can refuse a blessing, but not the marriage, since he is not the minister of the sacrament. Your question therefore is moot. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Celibacy *can* be a gift of the Holy Ghost; it can also be an act of the will when required to stay in God’s grace or to fulfill a sacred vow. How will marriage be affected? In the ECUSA, it will make no difference. Marriage in the ECUSA, by and large, is not taken seriously anymore. For society at large, it is a further degradation, nothing new. Look at the state of marriage today, and the effect it has on society. Once a sacred estate, seriously entered into, considered essential for family and societal stability. Now, we have couples living together outside marriage as the norm, rather than an aberration. Women who may have a half dozen children, all with different fathers, none of which live with the family. People marrying, divorcing, re-marrying with no regard for the effect it has on their children. I see the effects this has in my own extended family, in the lives of friends, in my work with young adults. Look at crime rates, drop-out rates, frequency of sexually transmitted diseases, abortion rates – can you really believe that our move away from scripture and tradition has resulted in a net positive result for society? We are now reaping what we sowed in the sixties and seventies. May the Lord help us when we reap what our childern are sowing.
Yes, marriage is good, and promiscuity is bad. That is why gays and lesbians want access to this sacred estate. Same-sex marriage would allow gays and lesbians who are not called to life-long celibacy to live chaste lives.
Response:
Harmony: " I’m absolutely convinced that merely being homosexual is not a sin – You are correct, it is up to God, it is not up to me OR YOU. I was stating a fact. I’m convinced that merely being a homosexual is not a sin. I did not say that it wasn’t a sin, I stated that I’m convinced that it is not a sin. What I stated is indeed a fact. The fact is that I’m convinced … Obviously, you are not, fine. By the way, maybe people would consider your opinion more if you didn’t scream (in caps) almost every word. It makes you appear fanatical. Please show me a single quote from the Bible that says that merely being a homosexual is a sin. I admit there are several places that strongly appear to suggest that homosexual acts may be sins, but I don’t recall any place where it says that having those urges is a sin. You might want to rethink your handle "harmony", it seems most inappropriate .
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The first of all the commandments is:Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.50 Matthew 22:37-40 **and Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments" (including NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE OR WITH ANYONE OTHER THAN YOUR SPOUSE!!!) GOD MADE WOMAN FOR MAN HE DID NOT MAKE HOMOSEXUALS! THEY MADE THEMSELVES! (with the devil’s help:-( REPENT AND BE FORGIVEN. AND THEN ‘GO AND SIN NO MORE"!!!!! I don’t pretend to be a Biblical scholar, I’ve only read the Bible completely one time, and then, I only understood about a third of what I read. I don’t know which side is right or wrong, although I’ve certainly prayed about it. I prayed before during and after the convention that the delegates make the right decision. What I do know is I’m pretty sure I understand the above quote, and I’m not seeing very much of that in this newsgroup lately. **IT’S CALLED RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION! Some of us are very angry that Sin is so rampant and accepted in Christ’s church! I’m absolutely convinced that merely being homosexual is not a sin – their orientation is not a matter of their choice. ** that goes against scripture which says God made woman for man,and homosexuality is an abomination to God! That also says, "Choose this day whom thou wilt serve" God or the devil! We ALL have choices, minute by minute! We all have choices to obey God’s Word or not. We’re not puppets!!! What I don’t know is whether acting on that orientation is a sin or not. … and if it is a sin, is it any worse than multitudes of other sins that occur every day. I have no doubt that other bishops have committed far worse sins. **God forbid!!!! Isn’t it just possible that the Holy Spirit moved the convention to vote the way it did for some reason we all don’t understand. God’s purpose is frequently difficult for us mere mortals to understand. **The "Holy Spirit" wasn’t even IN that convention!!!! You guys don’t have the Holy Spirit or you wouldn’t be so immersed in the "World" and "following the lusts of the flesh!" I’m sure many of you are now assuming that I’m gay because I’m speaking out. Let me assure you I’m not, although I’ve had several gay friends. It just sickens me to see the kind of hate mongering going on here in this newsgroup. Look at the 2 commandments above and look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are being compliant to those commandments. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. **We aren’t casting stones, but we are pointing out a sin, that’s not allowed in our Churches! We are "defending the Faith!" In His Love (an Truth) Brenda
Response:
I was there for the first through eighth legislative day. I prayed at table with deputies; I worshipped in the Convention Center with them and a thousand other visitors; I spoke to laity, priests, and bishops I agreed with, and laity, priests, and bishops I disagreed with. I watched many vote happens. My rector voted on all the resolutions that came before the House of Deputies, and spoke to our parish today about the experience. The Holy Spirit was there and active–and it would be far from me to attempt to delineate all the ways in which the Spirit moved there. But move S/He did. MaryO
Interesting as our associate Rector spoke with people from Convention and got the same impression.
Response:
If a heterosexual couple is living in sin outside of marriage, and they decide to get married, the Priest will require them to repent of the sin and live a celibate life apart from each the other for a time before the marriage takes place. If they refuse, and the marriage is not granted, where does the fault lie? Is the Priest truly responsible for their sin? This is not the practice of the Episcopal Church in the United States.
It once was, and would still be if the ECUSA was serious about scripture. Nevertheless, you do not answer the question posed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -There are many who choose celibacy to follow our Lord. Some in Holy Orders do so, some need to due to a weakness or perversion (an inclination to pedaresty, or a preference towards those underage, would require celibacy to be in God’s good grace). Some heterosexuals choose celibacy; some get married and have celibacy thrust upon them (yes, a rather lame attempt at humour). Our homosexual brothers and sisters can make the choice: celibacy to maintain current doctrine; or activism to change doctrine. If change is the choice, please consider carefully (and prayerfully) what you do. Your doctrinal change may destroy the Sacrament of Marriage and thusly weaken the Church. Lifelong celibacy is a charism, a gift of the Holy Spirit. Most homosexuals have not been given this charism, and it is wrong to legislate as if they have. Furthermore, allowing same-sex unions, whether or not they are considered the equivalent of marriage, will not affect the sacrament of Holy Matrimony. Why should it? I think the obvious and consistent thing to do is to allow both hetersexual couples through marriage and homosexual couples through a rite of same-sex union to have their relationshiop formally acknowledged and blessed by the Church. Then the Christian demand for chastity can stand. It strikes me as extremely odd that helping homosexuals to live chaste lives in relationship is seen as encouraging promoscuity in heterosexuals!
Celibacy *can* be a gift of the Holy Ghost; it can also be an act of the will when required to stay in God’s grace or to fulfill a sacred vow. How will marriage be affected? In the ECUSA, it will make no difference. Marriage in the ECUSA, by and large, is not taken seriously anymore. For society at large, it is a further degradation, nothing new. Look at the state of marriage today, and the effect it has on society. Once a sacred estate, seriously entered into, considered essential for family and societal stability. Now, we have couples living together outside marriage as the norm, rather than an aberration. Women who may have a half dozen children, all with different fathers, none of which live with the family. People marrying, divorcing, re-marrying with no regard for the effect it has on their children. I see the effects this has in my own extended family, in the lives of friends, in my work with young adults. Look at crime rates, drop-out rates, frequency of sexually transmitted diseases, abortion rates – can you really believe that our move away from scripture and tradition has resulted in a net positive result for society? We are now reaping what we sowed in the sixties and seventies. May the Lord help us when we reap what our childern are sowing.
Response:
Ultimately, I think that there should be one sacramental rite for the joining of a couple, and I don’t really cared what it is called. But I don’t think that it would fly any time soon. Too big of a leap for many people. I would settle for separate rites for the short term. For the long term, I think you have the right of it. I am just trying to be pragmatic, I guess. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think the obvious and consistent thing to do is to allow both hetersexual couples through marriage and homosexual couples through a rite of same-sex union to have their relationshiop formally acknowledged and blessed by the Church. Darren, why would you have separate rites? Why not open marriage to queers? Didn’t we learn about the reality of supposed "separate but equal" with the black civil rights movement? Priscilla
Response:
Ultimately, I think that there should be one sacramental rite for the joining of a couple, and I don’t really cared what it is called. But I don’t think that it would fly any time soon. Too big of a leap for many people. I would settle for separate rites for the short term. For the long term, I think you have the right of it. I am just trying to be pragmatic, I guess.
Oh, OK. Thanks. Your referring to separate but equal as "consistent" was what bothered me, I think. I’m just afraid that a rite for same-sex couples would distract us from the reality — that we’re excluded from marriage. Half measures avail us nothing, to misquote from another context. Priscilla — The Episcopal Church welcomes you… and you… and you….
Response:
**and Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments" (including NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE OR WITH ANYONE OTHER THAN YOUR SPOUSE!!!) GOD MADE WOMAN FOR MAN HE DID NOT MAKE HOMOSEXUALS!
He made you love Elton THEY MADE THEMSELVES! (with the devil’s help:-(
And what about all of the gay birds and bees? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – REPENT AND BE FORGIVEN. AND THEN ‘GO AND SIN NO MORE"!!!!! I don’t pretend to be a Biblical scholar, I’ve only read the Bible completely one time, and then, I only understood about a third of what I read. I don’t know which side is right or wrong, although I’ve certainly prayed about it. I prayed before during and after the convention that the delegates make the right decision. What I do know is I’m pretty sure I understand the above quote, and I’m not seeing very much of that in this newsgroup lately. **IT’S CALLED RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION! Some of us are very angry that Sin is so rampant and accepted in Christ’s church!
YOU MEAN SELF RIGHTEOUS I’m absolutely convinced that merely being homosexual is not a sin –
GOD MADE ME GAY…AND JESUS STILL LOVES ME their orientation is not a matter of their choice. ** that goes against scripture which says God made woman for man,and homosexuality is an abomination to God! That also says, "Choose this day whom thou wilt serve" God or the devil! We ALL have choices, minute by minute! We all have choices to obey God’s Word or not. We’re not puppets!!!
GOD MADE ME GAY…AND JESUS STILL LOVES ME – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What I don’t know is whether acting on that orientation is a sin or not. … and if it is a sin, is it any worse than multitudes of other sins that occur every day. I have no doubt that other bishops have committed far worse sins. **God forbid!!!! Isn’t it just possible that the Holy Spirit moved the convention to vote the way it did for some reason we all don’t understand. God’s purpose is frequently difficult for us mere mortals to understand. **The "Holy Spirit" wasn’t even IN that convention!!!! You guys don’t have the Holy Spirit or you wouldn’t be so immersed in the "World" and "following the lusts of the flesh!"
HARMONY, HAVE U SEEN A SHRINK ABOUT YOUR ELTON OBSESSION? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m sure many of you are now assuming that I’m gay because I’m speaking out. Let me assure you I’m not, although I’ve had several gay friends. It just sickens me to see the kind of hate mongering going on here in this newsgroup. Look at the 2 commandments above and look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are being compliant to those commandments. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. **We aren’t casting stones, but we are pointing out a sin, that’s not allowed in our Churches! We are "defending the Faith!"
No, you are defending bigotry
Response:
I was there for the first through eighth legislative day. I prayed at table with deputies; I worshipped in the Convention Center with them and a thousand other visitors; I spoke to laity, priests, and bishops I agreed with, and laity, priests, and bishops I disagreed with. I watched many vote happens. My rector voted on all the resolutions that came before the House of Deputies, and spoke to our parish today about the experience. The Holy Spirit was there and active–and it would be far from me to attempt to delineate all the ways in which the Spirit moved there. But move S/He did. MaryO – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Isn’t it just possible that the Holy Spirit moved the convention to vote the way it did for some reason we all don’t understand. God’s purpose is frequently difficult for us mere mortals to understand." Cross my heart and hope to die, one of the denominationalists actually thought of THAT even as I was summarizing about how none of them ever seemed to. Shame on me! Maybe there is Hope? Or maybe not. Mr. Poster was not a _member_ of the convention, after all, so maybe he doesn’t quite altogether see what he’s saying. For him it might just be only another Word From On High, which he defers to because nothing is more Anglican than deference. The real _Non nobis, Domine_ would be for somebody who was actually present and actually voted, somebody who saw exactly how everything was done at Minneapolis, humanly speaking, and helped do it, to speak about the mysterious movements of the Holy Ghost as well — and really mean every word seriously. BGKB. Happy days. –JHM
Response:
I think the obvious and consistent thing to do is to allow both hetersexual couples through marriage and homosexual couples through a rite of same-sex union to have their relationshiop formally acknowledged and blessed by the Church.
Darren, why would you have separate rites? Why not open marriage to queers? Didn’t we learn about the reality of supposed "separate but equal" with the black civil rights movement? Priscilla — The Episcopal Church welcomes you… and you… and you….
Response:
"Isn’t it just possible that the Holy Spirit moved the convention to vote the way it did for some reason we all don’t understand. God’s purpose is frequently difficult for us mere mortals to understand." Cross my heart and hope to die, one of the denominationalists actually thought of THAT even as I was summarizing about how none of them ever seemed to. Shame on me! Maybe there is Hope? Or maybe not. Mr. Poster was not a _member_ of the convention, after all, so maybe he doesn’t quite altogether see what he’s saying. For him it might just be only another Word From On High, which he defers to because nothing is more Anglican than deference. The real _Non nobis, Domine_ would be for somebody who was actually present and actually voted, somebody who saw exactly how everything was done at Minneapolis, humanly speaking, and helped do it, to speak about the mysterious movements of the Holy Ghost as well — and really mean every word seriously. BGKB. Happy days. –JHM
Response:
If a heterosexual couple is living in sin outside of marriage, and they decide to get married, the Priest will require them to repent of the sin and live a celibate life apart from each the other for a time before the marriage takes place. If they refuse, and the marriage is not granted, where does the fault lie? Is the Priest truly responsible for their sin?
This is not the practice of the Episcopal Church in the United States. There are many who choose celibacy to follow our Lord. Some in Holy Orders do so, some need to due to a weakness or perversion (an inclination to pedaresty, or a preference towards those underage, would require celibacy to be in God’s good grace). Some heterosexuals choose celibacy; some get married and have celibacy thrust upon them (yes, a rather lame attempt at humour). Our homosexual brothers and sisters can make the choice: celibacy to maintain current doctrine; or activism to change doctrine. If change is the choice, please consider carefully (and prayerfully) what you do. Your doctrinal change may destroy the Sacrament of Marriage and thusly weaken the Church.
Lifelong celibacy is a charism, a gift of the Holy Spirit. Most homosexuals have not been given this charism, and it is wrong to legislate as if they have. Furthermore, allowing same-sex unions, whether or not they are considered the equivalent of marriage, will not affect the sacrament of Holy Matrimony. Why should it? I think the obvious and consistent thing to do is to allow both hetersexual couples through marriage and homosexual couples through a rite of same-sex union to have their relationshiop formally acknowledged and blessed by the Church. Then the Christian demand for chastity can stand. It strikes me as extremely odd that helping homosexuals to live chaste lives in relationship is seen as encouraging promoscuity in heterosexuals!
Response:
Ah, but is not the sin on the head of the one responsible? Homosexuals are denied the sacrament of marriage, so it is the ones who deny access to that sacrament who would be responsible for any resulting sin, wouldn’t it? If a heterosexual couple is living in sin outside of marriage, and they decide to get married, the Priest will require them to repent of the sin and live a celibate life apart from each the other for a time before the marriage takes place. If they refuse, and the marriage is not granted,…
…then they can always go to a Justice of the Peace, who WON’T be so nit-picking! [ ... ] Our homosexual brothers and sisters can make the choice: celibacy to maintain current doctrine; or activism to change doctrine. If change is the choice, please consider carefully (and prayerfully) what you do. Your doctrinal change may destroy the Sacrament of Marriage and thusly weaken the Church.
Or not.
Response:
Ah, but is not the sin on the head of the one responsible? Homosexuals are denied the sacrament of marriage, so it is the ones who deny access to that sacrament who would be responsible for any resulting sin, wouldn’t it? Priscilla
If a heterosexual couple is living in sin outside of marriage, and they decide to get married, the Priest will require them to repent of the sin and live a celibate life apart from each the other for a time before the marriage takes place. If they refuse, and the marriage is not granted, where does the fault lie? Is the Priest truly responsible for their sin? There are many who choose celibacy to follow our Lord. Some in Holy Orders do so, some need to due to a weakness or perversion (an inclination to pedaresty, or a preference towards those underage, would require celibacy to be in God’s good grace). Some heterosexuals choose celibacy; some get married and have celibacy thrust upon them (yes, a rather lame attempt at humour). Our homosexual brothers and sisters can make the choice: celibacy to maintain current doctrine; or activism to change doctrine. If change is the choice, please consider carefully (and prayerfully) what you do. Your doctrinal change may destroy the Sacrament of Marriage and thusly weaken the Church.
Response:
God only created heterosexuals. link?? verse?? chapter?? anything?? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let me see if I understand you correctly. Homosexuals created themselves??!! They didn’t exist and this nothingness said "let there be me"?? …and homosexuals were created? I think you give them credit for WAY more power than they have. ** The term "homosexual" is a man-made term. A word created to describe a sinner who suffers from the lust of Sodomy. It’s not a real sexuality, since God created everyone heterosexual. Same sex unions are not created by God. Man(kind) created them. (at the devil’s bidding) If it’s not created by God, then who is it created by? Man(kind) made up the name and has been trying to legitimize it ever since. (but in God’s eyes it’s still illegal) The lust for the same sex is not something God put in you, but the devil. God only created heterosexuals. What man(kind) does with itself if not God’s doing! God didn’t create paedophiles or drunks either, they also created themselves by giving in to the temptations that go against God’s will. We know the rules, and that the devil tempts us to go against those rules, and we are told to "choose this day whom thou wilt serve" God or the devil. **and Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments" (including NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE OR WITH ANYONE OTHER THAN YOUR SPOUSE!!!) GOD MADE WOMAN FOR MAN HE DID NOT MAKE HOMOSEXUALS! THEY MADE THEMSELVES! (with the devil’s help:-( REPENT AND BE FORGIVEN. AND THEN ‘GO AND SIN NO MORE"!!!!! People’s strong disapproval of homosexuality is right! It’s not bigotry, hate or homophobia. **IT’S CALLED RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION! Some of us are very angry that Sin is so rampant and accepted in Christ’s church! I’m absolutely convinced that merely being homosexual is not a sin – their orientation is not a matter of their choice. ** that goes against scripture which says God made woman for man,and homosexuality is an abomination to God! That also says, "Choose this day whom thou wilt serve" God or the devil! We ALL have choices, minute by minute! We all have choices to obey God’s Word or not. We’re not puppets!!! What I don’t know is whether acting on that orientation is a sin or not. … and if it is a sin, is it any worse than multitudes of other sins that occur every day. I have no doubt that other bishops have committed far worse sins. **God forbid!!!! Isn’t it just possible that the Holy Spirit moved the convention to vote the way it did for some reason we all don’t understand. God’s purpose is frequently difficult for us mere mortals to understand. **The "Holy Spirit" wasn’t even IN that convention!!!! You guys don’t have the Holy Spirit or you wouldn’t be so immersed in the "World" and "following the lusts of the flesh!" and you certainly wouldn’t be allowing "Gay" sinners to Shepherd the flock!!!! Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. **We aren’t casting stones, but we are pointing out a sin, that’s not allowed in our Churches! We are "defending the Faith!" In His Love (and Truth) Brenda
Response:
Harmony, ALL words are "man-made." So what. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The term "homosexual" is a man-made term.
Response:
If 2000 years of tradition and scripture have any bearing (and in the modern ECUSA, it seems it does not), then one living with a sexual partner outside the Holy Sacrament of marriage, in unrepentant sin, should not receive communion, much less be made a Priest or Bishop.
Ah, but is not the sin on the head of the one responsible? Homosexuals are denied the sacrament of marriage, so it is the ones who deny access to that sacrament who would be responsible for any resulting sin, wouldn’t it? Priscilla
Response:
Harmony, Let me see if I understand you correctly. Homosexuals created themselves??!! They didn’t exist and this nothingness said "let there be me"?? …and homosexuals were created? I think you give them credit for WAY more power than they have. I’d sure like to know what translation of the Bible you got that piece of information from. Was this some 1930’s German translation?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The first of all the commandments is:Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.50 Matthew 22:37-40 **and Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments" (including NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE OR WITH ANYONE OTHER THAN YOUR SPOUSE!!!) GOD MADE WOMAN FOR MAN HE DID NOT MAKE HOMOSEXUALS! THEY MADE THEMSELVES! (with the devil’s help:-( REPENT AND BE FORGIVEN. AND THEN ‘GO AND SIN NO MORE"!!!!! I don’t pretend to be a Biblical scholar, I’ve only read the Bible completely one time, and then, I only understood about a third of what I read. I don’t know which side is right or wrong, although I’ve certainly prayed about it. I prayed before during and after the convention that the delegates make the right decision. What I do know is I’m pretty sure I understand the above quote, and I’m not seeing very much of that in this newsgroup lately. **IT’S CALLED RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION! Some of us are very angry that Sin is so rampant and accepted in Christ’s church! I’m absolutely convinced that merely being homosexual is not a sin – their orientation is not a matter of their choice. ** that goes against scripture which says God made woman for man,and homosexuality is an abomination to God! That also says, "Choose this day whom thou wilt serve" God or the devil! We ALL have choices, minute by minute! We all have choices to obey God’s Word or not. We’re not puppets!!! What I don’t know is whether acting on that orientation is a sin or not. … and if it is a sin, is it any worse than multitudes of other sins that occur every day. I have no doubt that other bishops have committed far worse sins. **God forbid!!!! Isn’t it just possible that the Holy Spirit moved the convention to vote the way it did for some reason we all don’t understand. God’s purpose is frequently difficult for us mere mortals to understand. **The "Holy Spirit" wasn’t even IN that convention!!!! You guys don’t have the Holy Spirit or you wouldn’t be so immersed in the "World" and "following the lusts of the flesh!" I’m sure many of you are now assuming that I’m gay because I’m speaking out. Let me assure you I’m not, although I’ve had several gay friends. It just sickens me to see the kind of hate mongering going on here in this newsgroup. Look at the 2 commandments above and look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are being compliant to those commandments. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. **We aren’t casting stones, but we are pointing out a sin, that’s not allowed in our Churches! We are "defending the Faith!" In His Love (an Truth) Brenda
Response:
Harmony, Let me see if I understand you correctly. Homosexuals created themselves??!! They didn’t exist and this nothingness said "let there be me"?? …and homosexuals were created? I think you give them credit for WAY more power than they have.
** The term "homosexual" is a man-made term. A word created to describe a sinner who suffers from the lust of Sodomy. It’s not a real sexuality, since God created everyone heterosexual. Same sex unions are not created by God. Man(kind) created them. (at the devil’s bidding) If it’s not created by God, then who is it created by? Man(kind) made up the name and has been trying to legitimize it ever since. (but in God’s eyes it’s still illegal) The lust for the same sex is not something God put in you, but the devil. God only created heterosexuals. What man(kind) does with itself if not God’s doing! God didn’t create paedophiles or drunks either, they also created themselves by giving in to the temptations that go against God’s will. We know the rules, and that the devil tempts us to go against those rules, and we are told to "choose this day whom thou wilt serve" God or the devil. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – **and Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments" (including NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE OR WITH ANYONE OTHER THAN YOUR SPOUSE!!!) GOD MADE WOMAN FOR MAN HE DID NOT MAKE HOMOSEXUALS! THEY MADE THEMSELVES! (with the devil’s help:-( REPENT AND BE FORGIVEN. AND THEN ‘GO AND SIN NO MORE"!!!!! People’s strong disapproval of homosexuality is right! It’s not bigotry, hate or homophobia. **IT’S CALLED RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION! Some of us are very angry that Sin is so rampant and accepted in Christ’s church! I’m absolutely convinced that merely being homosexual is not a sin – their orientation is not a matter of their choice. ** that goes against scripture which says God made woman for man,and homosexuality is an abomination to God! That also says, "Choose this day whom thou wilt serve" God or the devil! We ALL have choices, minute by minute! We all have choices to obey God’s Word or not. We’re not puppets!!! What I don’t know is whether acting on that orientation is a sin or not. … and if it is a sin, is it any worse than multitudes of other sins that occur every day. I have no doubt that other bishops have committed far worse sins. **God forbid!!!! Isn’t it just possible that the Holy Spirit moved the convention to vote the way it did for some reason we all don’t understand. God’s purpose is frequently difficult for us mere mortals to understand. **The "Holy Spirit" wasn’t even IN that convention!!!! You guys don’t have the Holy Spirit or you wouldn’t be so immersed in the "World" and "following the lusts of the flesh!"
and you certainly wouldn’t be allowing "Gay" sinners to Shepherd the flock!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. **We aren’t casting stones, but we are pointing out a sin, that’s not allowed in our Churches! We are "defending the Faith!" In His Love (and Truth) Brenda
Response:
The first of all the commandments is:Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.50 Matthew 22:37-40 I don’t pretend to be a Biblical scholar, I’ve only read the Bible completely one time, and then, I only understood about a third of what I read. I don’t know which side is right or wrong, although I’ve certainly prayed about it. I prayed before during and after the convention that the delegates make the right decision. What I do know is I’m pretty sure I understand the above quote, and I’m not seeing very much of that in this newsgroup lately. I’m absolutely convinced that merely being homosexual is not a sin – their orientation is not a matter of their choice. What I don’t know is whether acting on that orientation is a sin or not. … and if it is a sin, is it any worse than multitudes of other sins that occur every day. I have no doubt that other bishops have committed far worse sins. Isn’t it just possible that the Holy Spirit moved the convention to vote the way it did for some reason we all don’t understand. God’s purpose is frequently difficult for us mere mortals to understand. I’m sure many of you are now assuming that I’m gay because I’m speaking out. Let me assure you I’m not, although I’ve had several gay friends. It just sickens me to see the kind of hate mongering going on here in this newsgroup. Look at the 2 commandments above and look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are being compliant to those commandments. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The first of all the commandments is:Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.50 Matthew 22:37-40 I don’t pretend to be a Biblical scholar, I’ve only read the Bible completely one time, and then, I only understood about a third of what I read. I don’t know which side is right or wrong, although I’ve certainly prayed about it. I prayed before during and after the convention that the delegates make the right decision. What I do know is I’m pretty sure I understand the above quote, and I’m not seeing very much of that in this newsgroup lately. I’m absolutely convinced that merely being homosexual is not a sin – their orientation is not a matter of their choice. What I don’t know is whether acting on that orientation is a sin or not. … and if it is a sin, is it any worse than multitudes of other sins that occur every day. I have no doubt that other bishops have committed far worse sins. Isn’t it just possible that the Holy Spirit moved the convention to vote the way it did for some reason we all don’t understand. God’s purpose is frequently difficult for us mere mortals to understand. I’m sure many of you are now assuming that I’m gay because I’m speaking out. Let me assure you I’m not, although I’ve had several gay friends. It just sickens me to see the kind of hate mongering going on here in this newsgroup. Look at the 2 commandments above and look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are being compliant to those commandments. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
It’s always scary for me when a human being put MY salvation or a church’s salvation before THEIRS. Opinions are fine as we all have them, but when it steps over the line and is placed ahead of God or a Church, it’s truly gives me a shiver. I think of the mission statement ALL the time and take it seriously, "We believe God intends to restore all people to unity with God and each other in Christ" BCP 857 If someone is baptized, they are a member of this body, and if called to Holy Orders, we put our trust in the Holy Spirit to use their talents in whatever ministry they are called to serve. You can’t have it both ways, and accepting people as soon as they join their brothers and sisters in Christ is full. The rest is politics, and layer upon layer of personal issues.
Response:
The first of all the commandments is:Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.50 Matthew 22:37-40
**and Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments" (including NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE OR WITH ANYONE OTHER THAN YOUR SPOUSE!!!) GOD MADE WOMAN FOR MAN HE DID NOT MAKE HOMOSEXUALS! THEY MADE THEMSELVES! (with the devil’s help:-( REPENT AND BE FORGIVEN. AND THEN ‘GO AND SIN NO MORE"!!!!! I don’t pretend to be a Biblical scholar, I’ve only read the Bible completely one time, and then, I only understood about a third of what I read. I don’t know which side is right or wrong, although I’ve certainly prayed about it. I prayed before during and after the convention that the delegates make the right decision. What I do know is I’m pretty sure I understand the above quote, and I’m not seeing very much of that in this newsgroup lately.
**IT’S CALLED RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION! Some of us are very angry that Sin is so rampant and accepted in Christ’s church! I’m absolutely convinced that merely being homosexual is not a sin –
their orientation is not a matter of their choice.
** that goes against scripture which says God made woman for man,and homosexuality is an abomination to God! That also says, "Choose this day whom thou wilt serve" God or the devil! We ALL have choices, minute by minute! We all have choices to obey God’s Word or not. We’re not puppets!!! What I don’t know is whether acting on that orientation is a sin or not. … and if it is a sin, is it any worse than multitudes of other sins that occur every day. I have no doubt that other bishops have committed far worse sins.
**God forbid!!!! Isn’t it just possible that the Holy Spirit moved the convention to vote the way it did for some reason we all don’t understand. God’s purpose is frequently difficult for us mere mortals to understand.
**The "Holy Spirit" wasn’t even IN that convention!!!! You guys don’t have the Holy Spirit or you wouldn’t be so immersed in the "World" and "following the lusts of the flesh!" I’m sure many of you are now assuming that I’m gay because I’m speaking out. Let me assure you I’m not, although I’ve had several gay friends. It just sickens me to see the kind of hate mongering going on here in this newsgroup. Look at the 2 commandments above and look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are being compliant to those commandments. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
**We aren’t casting stones, but we are pointing out a sin, that’s not allowed in our Churches! We are "defending the Faith!" In His Love (an Truth) Brenda
Response:
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