Activism Change » Activism Politics

Hmmm…

admin — Thu, 22 Dec 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

"Doing the same thing over and over again And expecting a different Result isn’t rational. ~ Ann "Practice gets you to Carnegie Hall ~ !" ~ Folly

Response:

"I think this person is in a manic state Or something akin to that." ~ Emma Anne "Mania makes us move; Trance makes us metrically write. Mum makes us groove; A Maltese barks exactly right ~ And horny hounds prance around all night ~ !" ~ Twittering LSTOO & Folly IAG

Response:

"I think this person is in a manic state Or something akin to that." ~ Emma Anne "Mania makes us move;

Absolutely, T1 !!! … If you were, even remotely "manic", I figure that you would have been deade, long ago. There is absolutely *nothing* quite like that agony of suspense … .. read this as aching stiffness … inability to let go .. to

Response:

Personaly, I consider that T-1 is quite sane; at least as reasonably so as can be expected in the circumstances. The way I figure it, most non ADD type personalities would have gone and joined with the birdies, long ago. You know, it’s really magnaminous of you to go along with the delusion that T-1 is sane, but you aren’t doing her any favors. She isn’t, she needs help, she’s been offered help by people in her real life (never mind what goes on in cyberspace), and she seemingly can’t accept it.

I have had exactly the same thing said of myself. … As in; people who care about me say … "The Raving Loonie doesn’t listen." And I also get to be called: * passive-agressive * childish * entitled * narcissistic * living in my own dreamworld * re-acting * unable to trust * incapable of listening * inflexible, narrow-minded, uncooperative, opositional-defiant … "me?", "Twittering One?", "ADD crybaby?", … sound about right? Each of the starred(*) items is an inference; a causal explanation for RL/T1/ADD ’s obstinancy. … … Or rather, it’s an inference from the perspective of a person who is trying to be of help and having his/her assistance/advice ‘rebuffed’. For the person on the ‘receiving end’ of the help; it’s a bit like … accept the advice/assistance or risk being told to ‘FOAD’. As in … "We are not asking you Toad, we are TELLING you." Toad is the recipient. The recipient, can be very appreciative and suympathetic to the assistance/advice that is being offered. … the recipient can agree, wholeheartedly with such advice. … the recipient can perceive and be sympathetic to it for what it is … Yet, still the recipient is apt to refuse, ignore, turn a blind eye to it … because the recipient has a need to do it their own way. … the recipient has a need to prevail for himself or herself with his or her own personal point of view. Like the sentiment expressed in Frank Sinatra’s song … … I desperately need to do it my own way. This doesn’t mean that that I disrespect or disagree or don’t listen or fail to appreciate … the advice/offer/help being extended to me by another person. Twitttering One is adamant about asserting her own point of view. She clearly has a desperate need to do it her way. … For someone else, who is observing T1’s behavior; it can be interpeted as T1 being crazy, unappreciative, unable to listen, etc. (see starred list above). Until she either does something that gets her locked up or has a glimmer of rationality and sees what she’s doing isn’t helping her she will continue to be insane. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result isn’t rational.

What you have decribed, here: … expecting something and not having it "pan out". … thence going ahead and making the same mistake over and over again … … is is an interesting and ( for myself ) complex issue. Honestly, I’m not sure what to infer from it, yet. … There are many interpretations. None of them stand out for me, one way or another. Stop enabling her by pretending she’s sane.

Yep. She could be crazy because she is utterly insistent about having her own mind about the situation. A very nasty and emasculating situation … Either, T1 surrenders her sense of "self" and swallows another person’s opinion … .. or, T1 is insane, ungrateful, a spoiled brat ….. and can go FOAD This is how the victim feels in situations of … Sexual abuse Abuse of power Being kidnapped Being forced against one’s will and being unable to prevent it. Wife battering A small child who hasn’t learned to stand up for his/her self and join society as a mature, fullyt developed adult. And so very often … … a person who has ADD A person who innately seems to have tremendous difficulty maturing, evolving, developing, reaching maturity, … who trys & trys … and fails & fails … to become himself or herself. Sincerely, RL

Response:

FYI: I did a google search for T-One (spelled out as the name of the post usually reads) and found posts in all of these groups. Does it make sense to you that a person with ADD would be able to handle this many groups In all there 92 topics started or responded to by T-One. Most of the posts were pure gibberish and extremely cryptic. Many of the topics have no other author but the reply posts extend into the hundreds by the same person, over and over. IMO: I have seen these things before and they are usually nothing but a spamming engine designed to get people to respond to topics solely for click counting on servers. During my search I found many other topics in other names but had the same information or resembled the same syntax use etc that T-One displays over and over. One more point: Does it make sense to you that a person would continue this madness about being mentally hurt and damaged by Dr. Who Cares for this long and never actually use the advice given to them or ever obtaining a lawyer etc. misc.legal sci.med misc.writing alt.journalism alt.law-enforcement alt.true-crime rec.arts.poems uk.legal us.talk.constitution alt.computer.consultants alt.arts.poetry.urban alt.politics.democrats alt.fan.rush-limbaugh alt.fan.marcia-clark talk.bizarre alt.atheism alt.religion.scientology alt.activism sci.math alt.politics.economics alt.arts.ballet alt.astronomy rec.music.opera rec.running

Response:

FYI: I did a google search for T-One (spelled out as the name of the post usually reads) and found posts in all of these groups.

She’s been a regular here for a long time and she’s been falling apart slowly right along. Something finally pushed her over the edge. Possibly the abuse was the cause, possibly the accusations are a symptom. Kind of sad really. Does it make sense to you that a person with ADD would be able to handle this many groups

Yep. We like variety. In all there 92 topics started or responded to by T-One. Most of the posts were pure gibberish and extremely cryptic. Many of the topics have no other author but the reply posts extend into the hundreds by the same person, over and over.

Are you sure she’s not discussing with someone who is x-no-archived? IMO: I have seen these things before and they are usually nothing but a spamming engine designed to get people to respond to topics solely for click counting on servers.

She doesn’t include links very often. Her behavior is more akin to that of trolls but she doesn’t cross-post to a score-counting group and besides that, as I said, she’s been a regular here for a long time under various names. During my search I found many other topics in other names but had the same information or resembled the same syntax use etc that T-One displays over and over. One more point: Does it make sense to you that a person would continue this madness about being mentally hurt and damaged by Dr. Who Cares for this long and never actually use the advice given to them or ever obtaining a lawyer etc.

Please understand, using a nontechnical term, she’s crazy. He behavior makes perfect sense to _her_ but her perception of reality is at considerable variance from the one that the rest of us share. — –John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Response:

J Clarke, We want to acquire a gun. We are finally in agreement. Sincerely, Twittering LSTOO & Folly IAG

Response:

"Preferably, something elegant and compact, Easily concealed, accurate aim, Perhaps a pearl handle, Perhaps a deringer, With a silencer, And deadly bullets." ~ Twittering

Response:

The FBI Forensic Science Communications January 2001 – Volume 3 – Number 1 Red Bloody Graphic Case Report The Booth Deringer-Genuine Artifact or Replica? Sally A. Schehl Associate Editor, Forensic Science Communications Forensic Science Research Unit Federal Bureau of Investigation Washington, DC Carlo J. Rosati Firearms Examiner Firearms-Toolmarks Unit Federal Bureau of Investigation Washington, DC http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backissu/jan2001/schehl.htm

Response:

Far superior to jumping …

Response:

~ * Internet Crime Complaint Center * ~ The Internet Fraud Complaint Center (IFCC) was established as a partnership between the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and the National White Collar Crime Center (NW3C) to serve as a means to receive Internet related criminal complaints, research, develop and refer the criminal complaints to law enforcement agencies for any investigation they deem to be appropriate. The IFCC was intended, and continues to emphasize serving the broader law enforcement community, to include federal, as well as state and local agencies, which are combating Internet crime and in many cases participating in Cyber Crime Task Forces. Since its inception, the IFCC has received complaints crossing the spectrum of cyber crime matters, to include on-line fraud in its many forms, Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) matters, Computer Intrusions (hacking), Economic Espionage (Theft of Trade Secrets), On-line Extortion, International Money Laundering, Identity Theft and a growing list of Internet facilitated crimes. Over the past three years it has become increasingly evident that, regardless of the label placed on a cyber crime matter, the potential for it to overlap with another referred matter is substantial. The IFCC is therefore being renamed the Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3), to better reflect the broad character of such matters having a cyber (Internet) nexus referred to the IC3, and to minimize the need for one to distinguish "Internet Fraud" from other potentially overlapping cyber crimes. http://www.ic3.gov

Response:

In the health care fraud arena, the FBI targets systemic abuses, such as large-scale billing fraud that is national or regional in scope and fraudulent activities that threaten the safety of patients. http://www.fbi.gov/libref/factsfigure/wcc.htm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – FYI: I did a google search for T-One (spelled out as the name of the post usually reads) and found posts in all of these groups. She’s been a regular here for a long time and she’s been falling apart slowly right along. Something finally pushed her over the edge. Possibly the abuse was the cause, possibly the accusations are a symptom. Kind of sad really. Does it make sense to you that a person with ADD would be able to handle this many groups Yep. We like variety.

And she’s hyperfocused on her "interactive poetry project about loss and suicide." T-1 spends many, many hours on usenet every day, and AFAIK, doesn’t do much else except send lots of e-mails to former doctors and people she thinks might help her. Plus, I think it’s apparent to almost everyone, including her most recent doctors, that T-1’s mental health issues are much more serious that ADHD. In all there 92 topics started or responded to by T-One. Most of the posts were pure gibberish and extremely cryptic. Many of the topics have no other author but the reply posts extend into the hundreds by the same person, over and over. Are you sure she’s not discussing with someone who is x-no-archived?

John, you probably have T-1 plonked, but she often posts in threads in which she’s the only poster. In those threads, she posts parts of her poem, often repeating prior posts with minor editing. IMO: I have seen these things before and they are usually nothing but a spamming engine designed to get people to respond to topics solely for click counting on servers.

You’re wrong. T-1 is a real person generating real posts. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – She doesn’t include links very often. Her behavior is more akin to that of trolls but she doesn’t cross-post to a score-counting group and besides that, as I said, she’s been a regular here for a long time under various names. During my search I found many other topics in other names but had the same information or resembled the same syntax use etc that T-One displays over and over. One more point: Does it make sense to you that a person would continue this madness about being mentally hurt and damaged by Dr. Who Cares for this long and never actually use the advice given to them or ever obtaining a lawyer etc. Please understand, using a nontechnical term, she’s crazy. He behavior makes perfect sense to _her_ but her perception of reality is at considerable variance from the one that the rest of us share.

T-1 thinks she’s doing what needs to be done in order to heal. She’s mired in her obsession with her doctors, unable to do much else. Nancy Unique, like everyone else

Response:

You think so ? Personaly, I consider that T-1 is quite sane; at least as reasonably so as can be expected in the circumstances. The way I figure it, most non ADD type personalities would have gone and joined with the birdies, long ago. … there seems to be

Ever wonder why T-1 turned around and called me a stupid bastard when I was respecting her dilemma and simply trying to help? … notwithstanding that I have become insensitive to such unexpected and abrupt reversal of opinion and remain slightly confused by

People with ADD can very easily find theselves in a crisis of being universally, unconditionally, unilaterally rejected, abandoned, dismissed, discounted. … and be utterly unable to anything whatsoever about such helplessness. Don’t forget the title of that ADD self-help book: "YOU MEAN I’M NOT LAZY, STUPID OR CRAZY?" See http://tinyurl.com/9oexe T-1’s plea is so weak and helpless. Please don’t be fooled into viewing Virginia as .. … LAZY, STUPID OR CRAZY? … ‘Cause as I perceive her, she isn’t like that at all. … she is desperate. she is at her wits end… And she is in very dire danger of falling through the cracks because of that very, very, very real and tragic misperception concerning ADD. Cordially, respectfully and sincerely, RL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In all there 92 topics started or responded to by T-One. Most of the posts were pure gibberish and extremely cryptic. Many of the topics have no other author but the reply posts extend into the hundreds by the same person, over and over. Are you sure she’s not discussing with someone who is x-no-archived? John, you probably have T-1 plonked, but she often posts in threads in which she’s the only poster. In those threads, she posts parts of her poem, often repeating prior posts with minor editing. IMO: I have seen these things before and they are usually nothing but a spamming engine designed to get people to respond to topics solely for click counting on servers. You’re wrong. T-1 is a real person generating real posts. She doesn’t include links very often. Her behavior is more akin to that of trolls but she doesn’t cross-post to a score-counting group and besides that, as I said, she’s been a regular here for a long time under various names. During my search I found many other topics in other names but had the same information or resembled the same syntax use etc that T-One displays over and over. One more point: Does it make sense to you that a person would continue this madness about being mentally hurt and damaged by Dr. Who Cares for this long and never actually use the advice given to them or ever obtaining a lawyer etc. Please understand, using a nontechnical term, she’s crazy. He behavior makes perfect sense to _her_ but her perception of reality is at considerable variance from the one that the rest of us share. T-1 thinks she’s doing what needs to be done in order to heal. She’s mired in her obsession with her doctors, unable to do much else. Nancy Unique, like everyone else

Response:

Book Review By Anthony J. Mohr An Unquiet Mind, by Kay Redfield Jamison, During her undergraduate days at UCLA, Kay Redfield Jamison tutored a blind student. After several sessions she asked what blindness was like. Several days later he suggested they meet in the blind reading room of the library. When Jamison arrived, "I stopped suddenly when I realized with horror that the room was almost totally dark. It was dead silent, no lights were on, and yet there were half a dozen students bending over their books or listening intently to the audiotapes of the professors’ lectures that they had recorded. It was one of those still, clear moments when you realize that you haven’t understood anything at all, that you have had no real comprehension of the other person’s world." http://www.circlemagazine.com/issuetwenty/unquietmind.html

Response:

"TIR, or Traumatic Incident Reduction, is a systematic method of locating, reviewing and resolving traumatic events. Once a person has used TIR to fully and calmly view a painful memory or sequence of related memories, life events no longer trigger it and cause distressing symptoms." But Dr. Figley ~ I have a WHOLE NEW batch now That I did not have before … Honest. It’s like starting all over again, And that’s really not fun." ~ Twittering http://www.healing-arts.org/tir/framepract.htm

Response:

"Y is for Yorick whose head was knocked in." ~ Edward Gorey

Response:

You know, it’s really magnaminous of you to go along with the delusion that T-1 is sane, but you aren’t doing her any favors. She isn’t, she needs help, she’s been offered help by people in her real life (never mind what goes on in cyberspace), and she seemingly can’t accept it. Until she either does something that gets her locked up or has a glimmer of rationality and sees what she’s doing isn’t helping her she will continue to be insane. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result isn’t rational. Stop enabling her by pretending she’s sane. — Ann e-mail address is not checked

Response:

"The Singers ~ They are not angels though they have the hollow look of beings bred on ether." ~ Todd Hearon http://www.poetrymagazine.org/magazine/1205/poem_176063.html

Response:

"We need to do everything possible To prevent the kind of pain that went into the following poem, Written by a 15 year old boy Two years before he killed himself ~ ‘Once…..he wrote a poem. And he called it "Chops," Because that was the name of his dog, and that’s what it was all about. And his teacher gave him an "A" And a gold star. And his mother hung it on the kitchen door, and read it to all his aunts… Once….he wrote another poem. And he called it "Question Marked Innocence," Because that was the name of his grief, and that’s what it was all about. And the professor gave him an "A" And a strange and steady look. And his mother never hung it on the kitchen door because he never let her see it… Once, at 3 a.m. … he tried another poem… And he called it absolutely nothing, because that’s what it was all about. And he gave himself an "A" And a slash on each damp wrist, and hung it on the bathroom door because he couldn’t reach the kitchen.’ Suicide is the worst, The most devastating outcome of mental illness. We can prevent more suicides than we do But we have social policies Which do not take psychiatric mortalities as seriously As they take deaths from cancer, AIDS, or heart disease. Social attitudes, and the stigma they reflect, Not only hurt those with mental illness, They kill." ~ Kay Jamison http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/rel/festival/lectures/28062000redfield.html

Response:

"Christmas (II) The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be? My God, no hymn for thee? My soul’s a shepherd too; a flock it feeds Of thoughts, and words, and deeds. The pasture is thy word: the streams, thy grace Enriching all the place. Shepherd and flock shall sing, and all my powers Outsing the daylight hours. Then we will chide the sun for letting night Take up his place and right: We sing one common Lord; wherefore he should Himself the candle hold. I will go searching, till I find a sun Shall stay, till we have done; A willing shiner, that shall shine as gladly, As frost-nipt suns look sadly. Then we will sing, and shine all our own day, And one another pay: His beams shall cheer my breast, and both so twine, Till ev’n his beams sing, and my music shine." ~ George Herbert

Response:

"When I was very young, After my mother’s traumatic death When I was six, I was relegated to the basement of our house, Giving up my bedroom To make way for a long series of mostly neurotic Live-in housekeepers. The three main things that sustained me Through the fear and loneliness were ~ My obsessive stubborness, My escape into fantasy And the arms of the mother earth of the natural world, And a very strong creative urge that seemed ~ along with depressive and bipolar disorders ~ to run in a good part of the family." ~ Peter Shefler http://www.healing-arts.org/tir/poetry.htm

Response:

I think this person is in a manic state or something akin to that.

Response:

J Clarke, We want to acquire a gun. We are finally in agreement. Sincerely, Twittering LSTOO & Folly IAG

Oh no! Here I’ve been worrying about the dead silence coming from you for the last three days, and now the first thing I hear is you talking about wanting to acquire a gun. I know you probably feel like you’re going over a water fall right now, but life will continue, if you let it. Form a plan, a survival plan, for when you have a plan, there is always hope. Spit in the face of outrageous fate! Steel yourself against life’s indignities. Resolve to carry on no matter what. Do those who have wronged you deserve to have you die with a whimper? No, be a burr in their sides if that’s what gives your life meaning. But most of all, don’t go gentle into that good night, rage, rage against the dying of the light. Double-A

Response:

"I think this person is in a manic state Or something akin to that." ~ Emma Anne Meanwhile, "Bach was supposed to be a nasty guy." ~ Interlocutor "He may have been a nasty guy But he seems to have been pretty sane." ~ Kay Jamison http://www.pbs.org/lflc/backstage/march3/jamison.htm

Response:

OT Outside of Cats…

admin — Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

What are your interests outside of cats? I know that everyone here loves the feline masters, but I don’t know much about what other things you folks are into (though I would guess cooking as choice #2 My list of interests: Aviation and Air Cadets Military History/Royal United Services Institute Wicca/Natural Magic and the Unitarian Church Literature Comic Books and Manga Animation and Anime Toy Collecting: Transformers and My Little Pony Original Fiction; Drawing Comic Art; Newspaper Cartooning; (Kittyraps?) Roleplaying (Werewolf the Apocalypse and Transformers) Attempting to Knit –Fil

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What are your interests outside of cats? I know that everyone here loves the feline masters, but I don’t know much about what other things you folks are into (though I would guess cooking as choice #2 My list of interests: Aviation and Air Cadets Military History/Royal United Services Institute Wicca/Natural Magic and the Unitarian Church Literature Comic Books and Manga Animation and Anime Toy Collecting: Transformers and My Little Pony Original Fiction; Drawing Comic Art; Newspaper Cartooning; (Kittyraps?) Roleplaying (Werewolf the Apocalypse and Transformers) Attempting to Knit –Fil

Science Fiction – books mostly, but also films and TV (favorite authors: Spider Robinson, Robert Heinlein, Orson Scott Card, Anne McCaffrey, Tanya Huff, Frank Hebert, Dean Ing, Ben Bova, Isaac Asimov, William C. Dietz, Larry Niven, and hundreds more I just can’t think of now) Ballet (I used to be a dancer when I was young – back in the stone age) Web Programming – I not only made a career of it, but I do it for fun and volunteer to do it for a NPO. Biking (not racing or mountain biking, just biking round the block) Hiking Camping Yoga (new one) Writing I’m sure I’ll think of more as others list theirs and make me go, "Oh yeah, me too!" ; Hugs, CatNipped

Response:

On 2005-03-11, Enfilade penned: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What are your interests outside of cats? I know that everyone here loves the feline masters, but I don’t know much about what other things you folks are into (though I would guess cooking as choice #2 My list of interests: Aviation and Air Cadets Military History/Royal United Services Institute Wicca/Natural Magic and the Unitarian Church Literature Comic Books and Manga Animation and Anime Toy Collecting: Transformers and My Little Pony Original Fiction; Drawing Comic Art; Newspaper Cartooning; (Kittyraps?) Roleplaying (Werewolf the Apocalypse and Transformers) Attempting to Knit –Fil

I’ll probably forget some, but … martial arts (specifically mostly taekwondo) downhill skiing (doing, not watching) mountain biking (doing, not watching) reading fiddling around with computers (especially open source stuff) driving my WRX riding my beemer motorcycle ice hockey (playing, not watching) sleeeep! (when I can get enough, which is rarely) DH and I watched all of the Buffy episodes on DVD and are now plowing our way through the Angel series, I think mostly because of Buffy withdrawal. When I was in high school and college I played the Rifts RPG, and I still like reading the source books, but I just haven’t gotten around to doing anything with it since then. — monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

Response:

Wow! You sure have an exciting list of varied interests. Do you fly? I used to fly. I got my private pilot license when I was 45 and flew for about 5 years before money and other things forced me to give it up. Nowadays my interests, other than my cats are mostly: Toastmasters (I belong to three Toastmasters clubs and visit others) Travel, especially to Australia and Alaska Reading (especially mysteries, but including some sci fi, biography and other non-fiction) Games – Palabra, Taboo, Malarkey, Balderdash, Pictionary and Trivial Pursuit. I belong to a group that divides into two teams to play Trivial Pursuit once a month. Joy

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Horse racing Classical Guitar Star Trek

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What are your interests outside of cats? I know that everyone here loves the feline masters, but I don’t know much about what other things you folks are into (though I would guess cooking as choice #2 My list of interests: Aviation and Air Cadets Military History/Royal United Services Institute Wicca/Natural Magic and the Unitarian Church Literature Comic Books and Manga Animation and Anime Toy Collecting: Transformers and My Little Pony Original Fiction; Drawing Comic Art; Newspaper Cartooning; (Kittyraps?) Roleplaying (Werewolf the Apocalypse and Transformers) Attempting to Knit –Fil

Cooking (of course!) Reading Writing Old movies Vintage costumes/clothing If you’re interested in aviation history, you should shoot me an email. I can share a few exciting document photos with you regarding the LZ-129 Jill

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Computers Reading (mystery, sci-fi, books featuring cats in important roles) Ham radio (my call sign is AA6GF) Travel (though preferably in something other than a semi) Trying to learn to draw Dan

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Me too! I got my license when I was in my early 30’s, flew for about 3 years, stopped when it got too expensive. I haven’t flown in probably 15 years now. Dan

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Hey, I was in Air Cadets! From age 13-18, I belonged to 848 Royal Roads squadron in Victoria, BC. Got my glider pilots licence when I was 16 in Princeton and my private pilots licence the next summer in Victoria. Air cadets was great for me because before that I used to be very shy, now not shy at all anymore. And I got my pilots licence, which came in handy because I ended up going to Selkirk College and getting my commercial multi-IFR. Although I don’t fly anymore, I’m still interested in aviation, although being married to a helicopter pilot has convinced me that helicopters are vastly superiour to airplanes Other things that I’m into are: weightlifting and fitness travelling photography stained glass scuba diving photoshop reality TV (my guilty pleasure!) drinking really good Australian wine reading shopping (how could I not be, living in Thailand!) — Britta "There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast." — Unknown Check out pictures of Vino at: http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album

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What are your interests outside of cats?

Cary tends to fill most of the times I’d have otherwise spent on my "other interests" however, back before he came along: Food & drink. Eating out, especially with friends at the cheap eats type of restaurant. An apprentice wine snob Scifi & fantasy. I tend towards the Fantasy end, Joel tends towards the ‘hard’ sci-fi with military stuff end, but there’s enough of an overlap there that our book collection melded seamlessly. Pratchett & Douglas Adams are *major* influences, and my guilty secret is enjoying Stephen King on occasion. Roleplaying, especially dark gothic horror. The less dice, the better (says she with a huge dice collection). Before we became breeders, we went to roleplaying conventions and we’d win at least one "best player" trophy between us each con, often more. Geek stuff. I am a geek (see above for clues). I like science and maths and other geeky things. There’s . Gadgets and toys are cool. Silly putty fun, but glop is groovy…. I could waste the rest of my life surfing the internet…. Knitting & crochet…. its constructive fidgetting. I rarely if ever finish anything, but can follow the most amazingly intricate patterns in those "knitting bibles" even if I unravel it to do the next one. Drawing & painting. I’m grossly out of practice and don’t have the time for it anymore, but I *used* to be quite good at it. I still like going to art galleries though. Theology. For some reason I am fascinated with what people believe… and more interestingly *why*. And anything else that takes my fancy at the time…. Yowie

Response:

Cary tends to fill most of the times I’d have otherwise spent on my "other interests" however, back before he came along: Food & drink. Eating out, especially with friends at the cheap eats type of restaurant. An apprentice wine snob Scifi & fantasy. I tend towards the Fantasy end, Joel tends towards the ‘hard’ sci-fi with military stuff end, but there’s enough of an overlap there that our book collection melded seamlessly. Pratchett & Douglas Adams are *major* influences, and my guilty secret is enjoying Stephen King on occasion. Roleplaying, especially dark gothic horror. The less dice, the better (says she with a huge dice collection). Before we became breeders, we went to roleplaying conventions and we’d win at least one "best player" trophy between us each con, often more. Geek stuff. I am a geek (see above for clues). I like science and maths and other geeky things. There’s . Gadgets and toys are cool. Silly putty is fun, but oobleck is awesome…. I could waste the rest of my life surfing the internet…. Knitting & crochet…. its constructive fidgetting. I rarely if ever finish anything, but can follow the most amazingly intricate patterns in those "knitting bibles" even if I unravel it to do the next one. Drawing & painting. I’m grossly out of practice and don’t have the time for it anymore, but I *used* to be quite good at it. I still like going to art galleries though. Theology. For some reason I am fascinated with what people believe… and more interestingly *why*. And anything else that takes my fancy at the time…. Yowie

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hooboy. ummm, in no particular order: books! mainly Sci-fi & fantasy cross stitch attempting to crochet (something other than a demented potholder) woodworking renaissance faires swords & daggers calligraphy sewing fabric painting video games (RPG’s, adventure, MMORGS, the occasional platform) D&D collecting: dragons, hedgehogs, Wee Forest Folk comics (some traditional , some web comics, a couple comic books) Godzilla movies Gossamer (Chuck Jones’ Bugs Bunny character, as well as my cat) I think that covers at least a large portion of my interests — Elise (supervised by Gossamer & Jeeves)

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) Ham radio (my call sign is AA6GF)

Dad never quite got me interested (not for lack of trying) His call sign is KC1FB. His parakeet’s name is QRP — Elise (supervised by Gossamer & Jeeves)

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What are your interests outside of cats?

Gardening Crafts (I discovered glass etching and love it) Movies and select TV shows and figuring out the TiVo Computers and learning whatever I can Walking Shopping Stuffed Bear and Cat collection Sleeping in on Sat morning Learning to decorate on a budget (single homeowner since 2000) What I hope to have time for some day: Traveling More crafts More gardening Reading other than technical docs and books

Response:

What are your interests outside of cats?

Gourmet food, wine, travel, science fiction, politics, video games (rpg types)… — Victor M. Martinez Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)

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Reading – Favorite Fiction SF/Fantasy: Authors: J.R.R. Tolkien; Stephen R. Donaldson, George R. R. Martin; Jim Butcher; Glen Cook;Robin Hobbs; Also like the Janet Evanovich Stephanie Plum mysteries. Other reading interests: medical/nutritional/psychiatric Playing D & D – usually a chaotic good thief type Birdwatching Music – Listening to classical; play piano (but not recently); listening to oldies e.g., Alan Parsons Project, Moody Blues, Simon and Garfunkel, Tina Turner; et al Making greeting cards, dabbling in crafts with beads and wire; drawing Current Favorite TV shows: Lost; House; Whose Line Is It Anyway? How Do I Look? Net surfing Christine

Response:

What are your interests outside of cats?

Reading especially Fantasy. Mercedes Lackey, Jennifer Roberson, Mary Stewart Music My Daughter and my Husband Star our Bassett Hound Irish Music Irish Festivals Celtic mythology and religions Theater Gnostic beliefs embroidery Genealogy budding interest in gems and minerals travel eating out reading recipes and convincing hubby to try them. Organizational Behavior and Team Building Astronomy Psychology Diane

Response:

What are your interests outside of cats?

no specific order Primate conservation and activism (my advocation) knitting being a Mom (well, this is actually #1…) flower gardening birding snorkeling travel kites (making, flying) gourmet cooking animals in general spay/neuter education pottery (I used to own my own business) liberal politics animal rights and welfare (in general) art (It can’t hurt you!) antiques (mainly pottery) reading That’s about it, I think! -L.

Response:

What are your interests outside of cats?

Outside of cats? Gardening, and a passing interest in botanical photography Cinema, with a possibly unhealthy fondness for movie musicals Sticking needles in stuff (oh all right, cross stitch) Classical music, preferably baroque or 20th century composers Inside of a cat, there’s not much room to do anything.

Response:

I haven’t posted in ages (RL is a hinderance in my participation in this group!), but I couldn’t resist. In no particular order: Cooking gardening natural history entomology (the study of insects) sci fi and fantasy books (too many favourite authors to mention, but Ursula Le Guin is first in my list of favourites) travel (horribly addicted to travel, but current budget curtails *that* little hobby!) looking after myself (a recent hobby, but one I *slowly* getting better at) Tish – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What are your interests outside of cats? I know that everyone here loves the feline masters, but I don’t know much about what other things you folks are into (though I would guess cooking as choice #2 My list of interests: Aviation and Air Cadets Military History/Royal United Services Institute Wicca/Natural Magic and the Unitarian Church Literature Comic Books and Manga Animation and Anime Toy Collecting: Transformers and My Little Pony Original Fiction; Drawing Comic Art; Newspaper Cartooning; (Kittyraps?) Roleplaying (Werewolf the Apocalypse and Transformers) Attempting to Knit –Fil

Response:

What are your interests outside of cats? Outside of cats? Gardening, and a passing interest in botanical photography Cinema, with a possibly unhealthy fondness for movie musicals Sticking needles in stuff (oh all right, cross stitch) Classical music, preferably baroque or 20th century composers Inside of a cat, there’s not much room to do anything.

Tee hee! That’s the thought that’s been making me giggle all day, Helen. =o) Kind of like the quote. "Outside of a dog a book is man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read." Silliness aside and in no particular order, Writing (it’s amazing how many people on many of the electronic forums I’ve posted to say this. =o) Nevertheless, I actually HAVE been working quite hard at my writing for about 20 years now, and have received enough encouragement from people whose opinions I trust to keep at it. This leads into my next interest which is reading some fantasy and sci-fi. I’m a LOTR fan, and have been from the age of about 12. My interest in writing AND fantasy has got me involved in the projects listed on this link: http://www.derynirealms.com/ I helped with the Deryni Adventure Game, and am one of a team of contributing authors on the Deryni Atlas. FudgeRPG is devising role playing games based on the Deryni Universe created by Katherine Kurtz. I have been a fan of hers for 20 years and more, and I can credit her with my early fascination with writing. She is also a very warm, nice person. Other interests include: Cooking Needlepoint (This doesn’t get a lot of attention, these days. But I find it very soothing when I’m agitated. Watercolor painting. (NIna is fascinated by this, and she always seems to want to put her mark on my paintings, preferably in the form of a pawprint on a not quite dry wash…Arrrrgh. I have done a few cat paintings, but I have to work from photographs, as my models tend to be very uncooperative about holding poses for very long.) Travel (Although I don’t have the budget for it, really) But love of travel and painting lead me to take a two week painting trip to Italy in September 2003, and it was FABULOUS. =o) liberal/progressive politics The TV program The West Wing Dabbling my feet a little in photography, but mostly just in the form of snapshots. Singing (classical singing, in days of yore.) Haven’t done that for many years, but enjoyed it while I did. The most interested I get in sports is watching the Olympics whenever they’re on, but I am definitely ready for them to stop about 4 days before the games are over. I’m more of an O-lumpic sports person, as I’m a sedentary person with a terrible sweet tooth. Melissa

Response:

Wow! You sure have an exciting list of varied interests. Do you fly? I used to fly. I got my private pilot license when I was 45 and flew for about 5 years before money and other things forced me to give it up. Me too! I got my license when I was in my early 30’s, flew for about 3 years, stopped when it got too expensive. I haven’t flown in probably 15 years now. Dan

Do you miss it? I do. I have some great memories, though, and I’m sure you do too. Joy

Response:

What are your interests outside of cats?

Playing Ice-hockey Watching Ice-hockey Errmm, ice-hockey.. Horse-riding Hill Walking Reading Painting (not that I ever let anyone see them!) Photography Helen M — Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server – http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Response:

Reading science fiction and fantasy Rock and indie music, especially Manic Street Preachers . Knitting Spending time with my witty and gorgeous husband Jeanette

Response:

What are your interests outside of cats?

Role-playing I play ADnD once a week and a wide variety of games every week as part of my games club (just played Star Trek not bad and trying my hand at Exalted next)I am also storyteller for an incredibly long Vampire; The Masquerade chronicle which started in 1998 and may finish in my lifetime! Writing (and not just game stuff) Reading (I read anything except Westerns and soppy romantic novels and admit to a guilty enjoyment of no-brainer chick-lit)(and okay I’ll read anything and everything about cats) Music- Anything from classical to disgustingly loud rock Friends- Going for a beer with friends and having a good chat is one of the most relaxing things going Cartoons (I collect books of them) Restaurants- I am currently trying to try and go to a new restaurant at least once a month Cooking- when I have time i.e. at weekends, in the week after a hard day at work I’ll grab whatever’s fastest but at weekends I love to take my time over it. Quiz shows- I can’t resist "mastermind", "Brain of Britain" and I love "University Challenge" Films- most sorts, we’re in a DVD club and so I see a film every few days True crime- I enjoy reading books about true crime and tonight I believe our DVD club has sent a film about Bundy. Okay I’m a ghoul! Web design- I keep meaning to work on a website- but I need to get my PC networked to his yet! Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs who take most of her time

Response:

RIP – HUNTER THOMPSON

admin — Mon, 21 Feb 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Goofball offed himself… That "goofball" had more talent than you could ever dream of having. A brilliant yet troubled man.

who, in the end, surrendered to his critics by "giving up". arrogant bastard. buh bye! paul arizona

Response:

Goofball offed himself…

That "goofball" had more talent than you could ever dream of having. A brilliant yet troubled man.

Response:

Goofball offed himself… That "goofball" had more talent than you could ever dream of having. A brilliant yet troubled man.

By all means – follow his brilliant example. LV

Response:

Goofball offed himself… LV

Certainly an odd bird, but that in itself isn’t a condemnation, why old LV himself qualifies as that. Thompson was a hell of a writer, obsessed with America’s dark underbelly, but he sure knew what to do with a typewriter. His book on the Hell’s Angels is a must-read.

Response:

who, in the end, surrendered to his critics by "giving up". arrogant bastard. buh bye!

There’s the possibility that he was suffering from a wasting disease, and rather than become helpless he choose to go out on his terms.

Response:

Goofball offed himself… LV

He could have joined aga instead. It would have been just as effective. "Thompson was found dead Sunday in his Aspen-area home of an apparent self-inflicted gunshot wound, sheriff’s officials said. He was 67. Thompson’s wife, Anita, had gone out before the shooting and was not home at the time." http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,148212,00.html — Boy, this *is* a long story you know… maybe I *will* go get somethin’ to eat. –Meatwad

Response:

Goofball offed himself… That "goofball" had more talent than you could ever dream of having. A brilliant yet troubled man.

So… was he a "goofball" for killing himself.. ? ? ?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Goofball offed himself… That "goofball" had more talent than you could ever dream of having. A brilliant yet troubled man. By all means – follow his brilliant example.

You first — that would restore Colorado’s left-right "goofball" balance. Then we can compare press coverage. Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

Figgers Tam would jump in to defend a guy who had so little self-respect that he couldn’t go on living with himself. "brilliant yet troubled"… isn’t that the liberal holy grail in a nutshell? Freep "you say you can’t live with what you been through…" -FZ, ‘Broken Hearts are for Assholes’

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Goofball offed himself… That "goofball" had more talent than you could ever dream of having. A brilliant yet troubled man. By all means – follow his brilliant example. LV

Response:

DGDevin, tied to the tracks, said: who, in the end, surrendered to his critics by "giving up". arrogant bastard. buh bye! There’s the possibility that he was suffering from a wasting disease, and rather than become helpless he choose to go out on his terms.

There’s the possibility space aliens made him do it, too, but I wouldn’t bet on it. I’m waiting to hear the coroner’s report. “Just mixing those drugs is suicidal!”

Response:

Lord Valve, tied to the tracks, said: Goofball offed himself…

Meanwhile, Gidget died of kidney problems.

Response:

PMG, tied to the tracks, said: … He could have joined aga instead. It would have been just as effective.

Maybe he’d been reading AGA. In that case, I can almost understand suicide.

Response:

PMG, tied to the tracks, said: … He could have joined aga instead. It would have been just as effective. Maybe he’d been reading AGA. In that case, I can almost understand suicide.

I guess nobody explained killfiles to him. They aren’t *that* hard to figure out!! Pete — Boy, this *is* a long story you know… maybe I *will* go get somethin’ to eat. –Meatwad

Response:

There’s the possibility space aliens made him do it, too, but I wouldn’t bet on it. I’m waiting to hear the coroner’s report. “Just mixing those drugs is suicidal!”

There have been rumors about him being in very bad health for awhile now, the big C has been mentioned too. If true, Thompson is just the kind of guy who would decide to punch his own ticket while he still could rather than end his days in a bed with tubes in every orifice. As neither of us really knows, your suggestion of waiting for the coroner to report is a good idea.

Response:

Goofball offed himself… That "goofball" had more talent than you could ever dream of having. A brilliant yet troubled man. who, in the end, surrendered to his critics by "giving up".

Thanks for your deep concern for the mentally ill. Let’s hope it never effects you or a loved one.

Response:

Goofball offed himself… That "goofball" had more talent than you could ever dream of having. A brilliant yet troubled man. By all means – follow his brilliant example.

Writing brilliant prose? I’ll try.

Response:

…would jump in to defend a guy who had so little self-respect that he couldn’t go on living with himself.

"…so little self-respect…" You are SUCH an asshole.

Response:

Thanks for your deep concern for the mentally ill. Let’s hope it never effects you or a loved one.

Maybe it already has!

Response:

…would jump in to defend a guy who had so little self-respect that he couldn’t go on living with himself. "…so little self-respect…" You are SUCH an asshole.

That’s Freep.

Response:

Goofball offed himself… LV

He had a keen eye and a sharp pen, and he didn’t spare the left end of the political spectrum either…. "There is no way to grasp what a shallow, contemptible and hopelessly dishonest old hack Hubert Humphrey is until you’ve followed him around for a while." Hunter S. Thompson

Response:

And THAT’s Repair Guy, pulling an Ed Blum to get past the filters. Plonk. Thanks for getting Tam’s whine past my kill-filter, though. That was a hoot. Regarding HT, if he thinks we’re better off without him, why should I disagree? Freep

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …would jump in to defend a guy who had so little self-respect that he couldn’t go on living with himself. "…so little self-respect…" You are SUCH an asshole. That’s Freep.

Response:

PMG, tied to the tracks, said: … He could have joined aga instead. It would have been just as effective. Maybe he’d been reading AGA. In that case, I can almost understand suicide.

LOL!

Response:

I hadn’t figured out who he was yet, but after seeing a few posts it really didn’t matter. They all end up in the same place. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And THAT’s Repair Guy, pulling an Ed Blum to get past the filters. Plonk. Thanks for getting Tam’s whine past my kill-filter, though. That was a hoot. Regarding HT, if he thinks we’re better off without him, why should I disagree? Freep …would jump in to defend a guy who had so little self-respect that he couldn’t go on living with himself. "…so little self-respect…" You are SUCH an asshole. That’s Freep.

– Boy, this *is* a long story you know… maybe I *will* go get somethin’ to eat. –Meatwad

Response:

I hadn’t figured out who he was yet, but after seeing a few posts it really didn’t matter. They all end up in the same place.

Yes, I know what you mean. — Sniggles! http://www.artcontext.org/activism/politics/bush.php http://www.lpdallas.org/features/draheim/dr991216.htm http://www.bant-shirts.com/fuck-bush-t-shirt.htm

Response:

And THAT’s Repair Guy, pulling an Ed Blum to get past the filters. Plonk.

Nah, I don’t think so. Different ISP, different IP address. But I can see where you’d make the comparison – same snotty-girl attitude. Thanks for getting Tam’s whine past my kill-filter, though. That was a hoot. Regarding HT, if he thinks we’re better off without him, why should I disagree?

TamPax thinks he’s a journalist. ;-) LV – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Freep …would jump in to defend a guy who had so little self-respect that he couldn’t go on living with himself. "…so little self-respect…" You are SUCH an asshole. That’s Freep.

Response:

Bush is great! You people are STUPID!

admin — Sat, 08 May 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

GOD BLESS GEORGE W BUSH GOD BLESS GEORGE W BUSH George W Bush is the best president in the history of the world! Everybody who doesnt like him is stupid, they need a bath, learn to brush their teeth! I am a happy republican. I hire illegal mexicans to keep my garden nice. I give the blacks money to wash my car. I give the homosexuals my love in the rest areas when my wife doesnt know! I have a gun and will kill the junkie who enters my house! Democrats are blacks, no white or white passer should ever be a democrat! Nader smells bad! There is no such thing as global warming. trickle down works great! The homeland security act should be strengthened! Wake Up!!! We Need George W. Bush! He is on orders from GOD!!!! He has a HIGHER FATHER to seek advice! He WILL do the CRUSADES RIGHT and finally all those stinky, smelly muslims will be GONE!!! GOD BLESS GEORGE W BUSH!!! GOD SMITE THOSE WHO DONT SUPPORT HIM!!! Email me ONLY if you agree! If you email me and you DONT agree I will pray for you and then foward your email to John Ashcroft! (Thank God he covered the breast!!) You are ALL HEATHENS and will PERISH IN HELL!!!

Response:

YOU MUST BE JOKING. RIGHT??? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I do believe the original post is quite facetious. But what I would like to know is what qualifies sKerry to lead this country. Please don’t tell me it is his military service. What scares me is the fact that some people think sKerry is more qualified than the present administration. Personally I believe a 3rd or 4th amjor political party is needed to instill some competence and accountibility to the current political scene. What is even scarier is the people that vote for sKerry will probably vote for "the HILDABEAST" (Hillary Clinton) in 2008. You do know that sKerry will not win the race because Clinton wants the office in 2008, don’t you?

| YOU MUST BE JOKING. RIGHT??? | | | | —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

YOU MUST BE JOKING. RIGHT???

Note the headers. He claims an AOL address but posts from verio. And it’s an obvious attempt to cause a flood of hate email to the address he used. The usual user of that address posts from IP 67.21.20.82 which is Adelphia Cable. That one is from 168.143.113.102 which is verio. If it’s a forgery, don’t bother complaining to verio, they support abusers and ignore complaints. Try it. Call them at 1800-get-verio and tell them you want to report one of their spamers. Listen as they hang up when you tell them no. Just ask your ISP to null route all verio IPs and forget them. William R. James Path: newscene.com!newscene!newscene!novia!novia!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed3.e asynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!dfw-peer!news.veri o.net!sea-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.activism.drug-war,alt.activism.drug-war.mj-millennium,alt. cannabis.seed-banks,alt.politics.republicans,alt.politics.gw-bush Lines: 36 Organization: Ignorant Morons of the World! X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 May 2004 12:36:59 GMT) Xref: newscene.com alt.activism:599004 alt.activism.drug-war:3907 alt.activism.drug-war.mj-millennium:1865 alt.politics.republicans:275735 alt.politics.gw-bush:84431

Response:

YOU MUST BE JOKING. RIGHT???

YOU MUST BE A DUMICRAT. RIGHT???

Response:

Below are some very typical "arguments" of the right-wing (fascist) extremists. This is all they have to say. All their intellectual capacity is expressed right here.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – GOD BLESS GEORGE W BUSH GOD BLESS GEORGE W BUSH George W Bush is the best president in the history of the world! Everybody who doesnt like him is stupid, they need a bath, learn to brush their teeth! I am a happy republican. I hire illegal mexicans to keep my garden nice. I give the blacks money to wash my car. I give the homosexuals my love in the rest areas when my wife doesnt know! I have a gun and will kill the junkie who enters my house! Democrats are blacks, no white or white passer should ever be a democrat! Nader smells bad! There is no such thing as global warming. trickle down works great! The homeland security act should be strengthened! Wake Up!!! We Need George W. Bush! He is on orders from GOD!!!! He has a HIGHER FATHER to seek advice! He WILL do the CRUSADES RIGHT and finally all those stinky, smelly muslims will be GONE!!! GOD BLESS GEORGE W BUSH!!! GOD SMITE THOSE WHO DONT SUPPORT HIM!!! Email me ONLY if you agree! If you email me and you DONT agree I will pray for you and then foward your email to John Ashcroft! (Thank God he covered the breast!!) You are ALL HEATHENS and will PERISH IN HELL!!!

Response:

Your society sucks

admin — Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

GOD BLESS AMERICA The internet… what a wasteland. I always want to ask people, But what concrete proof do you have that there is no conspiracy going on? It’s one of those questions, like the existence of deities, for which there will not be an answer. We believe what we want to, because without meeting every person on earth and investigating them, we have no idea if there’s a conspiracy afoot. I don’t mean an old fashioned conspiracy, where the Masons or Catholics rule the world for their own profit, but I mean of the new kind, where a whole bunch of people find out an easy way and work it because there’s no reason in their minds to give a fuck. Call it flash mobbing opportunity itself. We’re eating ourselves away from within. But that isn’t why I wrote you. ! Program ! But seriously folks, I do have a very real program tonight. It’s just a handful of questions. 1. Why are jobs boring, inefficient and saturated in twisted office psychology and politics, but we all seem to think they are so important? 2. Yes, we want money. But then it eats most of our souls. Should we explore another way? 3. If all everyone wants is peace, why are they trying to enforce it by war? (If one dog wins, the other will lie in wait for him.) 4. If technology is so great, why has it experienced so little real-world productivity increases as a general office tool since the 1980s, while we still have to upgrade every 18 mos at high cost? 5. If we all care about the environment, why do we keep tearing up new land and replacing it with more of the same crap? (see question #2) 6. If globalism is achieved, and people from all countries are redistributed amongs all other countries of the globe, does that mean the same assholes I see in LA will be in Helsinki and Abuja? 7. If life is so goddamn precious, why do we waste most of our lives focused on mechanical things while ignoring our own health and state of mind? If you could post your answers in soc.culture.usa, that would help us learn more about where America is and where she is heading. — Put down the Bacon lovetoy, because I’m reddy fur luv!

Response:

Hi Ahn, You raise some pertinent questions and your some of your comments are resonant with what many of us know or suspect. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – GOD BLESS AMERICA The internet… what a wasteland. I always want to ask people, But what concrete proof do you have that there is no conspiracy going on? It’s one of those questions, like the existence of deities, for which there will not be an answer. We believe what we want to, because without meeting every person on earth and investigating them, we have no idea if there’s a conspiracy afoot. I don’t mean an old fashioned conspiracy, where the Masons or Catholics rule the world for their own profit, but I mean of the new kind, where a whole bunch of people find out an easy way and work it because there’s no reason in their minds to give a fuck. Call it flash mobbing opportunity itself. We’re eating ourselves away from within. But that isn’t why I wrote you.

Large and complex human societies always arrange themselves into hierarchies. Therefore there will be a small elite group at the top running the whole show. It is entirely to be expected. This is a fundamental manifestation of human nature. ! Program ! But seriously folks, I do have a very real program tonight. It’s just a handful of questions. 1. Why are jobs boring, inefficient and saturated in twisted office psychology and politics, but we all seem to think they are so important?

Some of us do think that. 2. Yes, we want money. But then it eats most of our souls. Should we explore another way?

Yes, anyone got any ideas? here are some: – anarchism – socialism – religious fundamentalism any others? 3. If all everyone wants is peace, why are they trying to enforce it by war? (If one dog wins, the other will lie in wait for him.) 4. If technology is so great, why has it experienced so little real-world productivity increases as a general office tool since the 1980s, while we still have to upgrade every 18 mos at high cost?

Technology _has_ increased efficiency for business, but at what cost? The workplace seems to have become more stressful and insecure over the years. So this efficiency has probably been gained at the expense of the employees and their families. Should this fact be included in the equation? 5. If we all care about the environment, why do we keep tearing up new land and replacing it with more of the same crap? (see question #2) 6. If globalism is achieved, and people from all countries are redistributed amongst all other countries of the globe, does that mean the same assholes I see in LA will be in Helsinki and Abuja?

Probably. 7. If life is so goddamn precious, why do we waste most of our lives focused on mechanical things while ignoring our own health and state of mind?

See question 2. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you could post your answers in soc.culture.usa, that would help us learn more about where America is and where she is heading.

Response:

Newsgroups: alt.politics.equality, alt.society.liberalism, alt.activism, soc.culture.usa

Greetings Mr Gilmour! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -You raise some pertinent questions and your some of your comments are resonant with what many of us know or suspect. I always want to ask people, But what concrete proof do you have that there is no conspiracy going on? It’s one of those questions, like the existence of deities, for which there will not be an answer. We believe what we want to, because without meeting every person on earth and investigating them, we have no idea if there’s a conspiracy afoot. I don’t mean an old fashioned conspiracy, where the Masons or Catholics rule the world for their own profit, but I mean of the new kind, where a whole bunch of people find out an easy way and work it because there’s no reason in their minds to give a fuck. Call it flash mobbing opportunity itself. We’re eating ourselves away from within. But that isn’t why I wrote you. Large and complex human societies always arrange themselves into hierarchies. Therefore there will be a small elite group at the top running the whole show. It is entirely to be expected. This is a fundamental manifestation of human nature.

I don’t have a problem with hierarchies, as long as their motivation is appropriate. To me it seems that hierarchies are natural and function the best of all systems of governance, provided that something other than "enlightened self-interest" is explored. 1. Why are jobs boring, inefficient and saturated in twisted office psychology and politics, but we all seem to think they are so important? Some of us do think that.

It’s interesting how most of the replies that I’ve received to this particular point have accused me of being an impoverished loser. Instructive. I wish more people thought this way. To me, jobs accomplish what could be done in two hours of focused time a week… in 50 hours a week of labor, commuting, and lying. 2. Yes, we want money. But then it eats most of our souls. Should we explore another way? Yes, anyone got any ideas? here are some: – anarchism – socialism – religious fundamentalism any others?

Or: return money to its state as an instrument of barter, and remove it from the position of "goal." This would require actual culture, which does not seem to exist in industrial societies, but could be invented or restored from the past. Anarchism is clearly non-functional; this doesn’t bother me. Socialism works best in the European sense, where there’s still competition, although this does not have to be Social Darwinistic competition, in my view. Religious fundamentalism? Which religion? 3. If all everyone wants is peace, why are they trying to enforce it by war? (If one dog wins, the other will lie in wait for him.) 4. If technology is so great, why has it experienced so little real-world productivity increases as a general office tool since the 1980s, while we still have to upgrade every 18 mos at high cost? Technology _has_ increased efficiency for business, but at what cost? The workplace seems to have become more stressful and insecure over the years. So this efficiency has probably been gained at the expense of the employees and their families. Should this fact be included in the equation?

You are correct. I don’t think overall efficiency has increased. Per-task efficiency has increased, but that’s like the fast hard drive in a slow computer. Overall, we still work long weeks and achieve little. 5. If we all care about the environment, why do we keep tearing up new land and replacing it with more of the same crap? (see question #2)

So: we’re at the mercy of money, which has replaced our sensible values. Is change possible without armed revolution? 6. If globalism is achieved, and people from all countries are redistributed amongst all other countries of the globe, does that mean the same assholes I see in LA will be in Helsinki and Abuja? Probably.

That’s unfortunate. I liked Helsinki; I didn’t dislike LA but it’s not for me. 7. If life is so goddamn precious, why do we waste most of our lives focused on mechanical things while ignoring our own health and state of mind? See question 2. If you could post your answers in soc.culture.usa, that would help us learn more about where America is and where she is heading.

This survey is proceeding swimmingly. Thank you for your help! — Put down the Bacon lovetoy, because I’m reddy fur luv!

Response:

Pledges up

admin — Sun, 23 Nov 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

… Y’know (just worrying about your problems because they make a nice break from mine), this is a big worry in the older contingent of my parish too. One thing we have which mitigates it is our family service, which I posted about in another thread. That pulls in lots of younger folks, and some of them even end up attending the more formal service. It’s not perfect–people worry about whether all these new folks are really committed to the church–but it does mean there’s now a mix of ages and attitudes, and a more vibrant community.

Our parish has a similar problem which developed as an unintended consequence of good intentions. We are a downtown church, and when the youth eduction building was put up, the rector we had then commandeered it to open a daycare for inner city babies during the week. And it’s a wonderful facility for our own babies. Good idea. Except now we have no place for the babies when they get to about age 6. When the kiddies get to that age the parents pick up and move over to some other church for the good of their kids. They might consider moving back when the kids are out of high school, but by that time (12 years down the road) why would they bother to move? So we’re a dying congregation. The interim rector correctly stated the problem: If you don’t tend your lambs, you can’t have a flock. We can’t kick the daycare out. How would that headline look? "Calvary Gives Inner City Babies The Boot." And we don’t have the money to build (again) a youth education building. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maybe what you should be doing is looking to expand–look beyond the traditional Episcopalians and see who else is out there who isn’t showing up at all. Maybe putting some things in place to attract these folks (who are less likely to be scared off by +Gene) would be interesting and fun. FWIW, my experience is this age group is less interested in formality and much more interested in participation–both in decision-making and doing. The older generation can’t figure us out–their notion of church is you show up on sunday and do what’s happening, and beyond that join a committee or two. Our notion is you (we–the congregation) argue about what to do IN the service, and how to structure it, and what role do we have? And don’t tell us we can be ushers, we want more than that. A do-it-yourself MP might be just the thing. This is disruptive and for some, it’s scary. But hey, it’s the Lord’s work, right?

Maybe us older Episcopalians are tired of changing things. We did that 30 or 40 years ago, and we’re ready to stop changing. You may go ahead and change things with my consent and without my participation. Just don’t be surpprised that I’m not there. I’ve paid my dues. — From all sedicion and pryvie conspiracie, from the tyrannye of the Bysshop of Rome, and al hys detestable enormities, from al false doctryne and heresy, from hardnes of hearte, and contempte of thy worde and commaundement. Good lord, deliver us. from the Litany, 1549 BCP

Response:

This is disruptive and for some, it’s scary. But hey, it’s the Lord’s work, right? — Hugh

No doubt that somewhere, somehow it is Lord’s work. Don’t know if he is laughing or crying as he watches his (nominally) adult children struggle. I’d sure appreciate a clarifying memo directly from Him regarding his expectations. Soon would be nice. We seem to be at a point where it would be helpful for the Boss to attend a staff meeting and clarify objectives, understandings, company policy, etc. Too much energy is being dissapated by interdepartmental turf wars and quarells. Too many people contradict each other as they claim to speak for Him. A direct message from the top would be helpful. It sure would be a help if He’d drop by in person for a chat.

Response:

This is disruptive and for some, it’s scary. But hey, it’s the Lord’s work, right? — Hugh No doubt that somewhere, somehow it is Lord’s work. Don’t know if he is laughing or crying as he watches his (nominally) adult children struggle.

To clarify myself, I was particularly talking about the challenge of including multiple generations and points of view in a church and keeping life in the service, here. I wasn’t thinking about our larger issues. I’d sure appreciate a clarifying memo directly from Him regarding his expectations. Soon would be nice. We seem to be at a point where it would be helpful for the Boss to attend a staff meeting and clarify objectives, understandings, company policy, etc. Too much energy is being dissapated by interdepartmental turf wars and quarells. Too many people contradict each other as they claim to speak for Him. A direct message from the top would be helpful.

My children, when I’m helping them with their homework, say, "Why don’t you just TELL me the answer? Why do you keep asking me QUESTIONS?" I think the same thing is going on here. It sure would be a help if He’d drop by in person for a chat.

That’s what prayer is for. I know people who seem to get answers. I mostly get told that I have figure it out for myself. Hugh — "Thou didst desire man’s free love, that he should follow Thee freely, enticed and taken captive by Thee. In place of the rigid ancient law, man must hereafter with free heart decide for himself what is good and what is evil, having only Thy image before him as his guide." - Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

Response:

We have made some progress since my post below. Our pledge total now stands within a few dollars of half of last year’s total.

Ouch. Looks like we’ll have to get used to Morning Prayer most of the time as we’ll probably not have full time clergy much longer. Finally going to have a parish meeting to discuss "the issues" (in depth I hope) in a few weeks. Maybe then we can find a way to keep the parish together that is an acceptable compromise to all.

Good. Pray. Pray pray pray pray. Before, during, after. The parish is quickly becoming a bunch of old people worried that there will not be anyone left when it comes time for their funeral.

Y’know (just worrying about your problems because they make a nice break from mine), this is a big worry in the older contingent of my parish too. One thing we have which mitigates it is our family service, which I posted about in another thread. That pulls in lots of younger folks, and some of them even end up attending the more formal service. It’s not perfect–people worry about whether all these new folks are really committed to the church–but it does mean there’s now a mix of ages and attitudes, and a more vibrant community. Maybe what you should be doing is looking to expand–look beyond the traditional Episcopalians and see who else is out there who isn’t showing up at all. Maybe putting some things in place to attract these folks (who are less likely to be scared off by +Gene) would be interesting and fun. FWIW, my experience is this age group is less interested in formality and much more interested in participation–both in decision-making and doing. The older generation can’t figure us out–their notion of church is you show up on sunday and do what’s happening, and beyond that join a committee or two. Our notion is you (we–the congregation) argue about what to do IN the service, and how to structure it, and what role do we have? And don’t tell us we can be ushers, we want more than that. A do-it-yourself MP might be just the thing. This is disruptive and for some, it’s scary. But hey, it’s the Lord’s work, right? — Hugh "Thou didst desire man’s free love, that he should follow Thee freely, enticed and taken captive by Thee. In place of the rigid ancient law, man must hereafter with free heart decide for himself what is good and what is evil, having only Thy image before him as his guide." - Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

Response:

I have a friend in another state who is extremely active in his parish and diocese and has been frothing for years over what he views as a hijacking of the PECUSA by the more liberal-minded of us. His notion is that extra-parliamentary procedures are being used at the GC to prevent people like him from having a say in the proceedings. I’ve never been to the GC and cannot give an opinion on it. Frankly I suspect that both sides are guilty of quelling any attempt at real dialogue. I can’t imagine this guy allowing a liberal to speak uninterrupted at a meeting — he’s much too hot-tempered. And I can say from experience that my own right-leaning opinions are met with amused silence at my own church. — From all sedicion and pryvie conspiracie, from the tyrannye of the Bysshop of Rome, and al hys detestable enormities, from al false doctryne and heresy, from hardnes of hearte, and contempte of thy worde and commaundement. Good lord, deliver us. from the Litany, 1549 BCP

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, in my parish (in NH) we had one meeting with a member of the search committee that chose Gene. I felt it did more harm than good, mostly because it was conducted as an open bitching session rather than a strucutured forum for discussing the issues. As I’ve said elsewhere, I believe the people who chose and elected Gene are acting out of their sense of what God’s will for us is–but the onus is certainly on them to explain what they’re doing and how they see that as compatible with Christian morality. They probably would not have convinced anyone, but they might at least have shown that they take the underlying issues seriously. I have a friend in another state who is extremely active in his parish and diocese and has been frothing for years over what he views as a hijacking of the PECUSA by the more liberal-minded of us. His notion is that extra-parliamentary procedures are being used at the GC to prevent people like him from having a say in the proceedings. I’ve never been to the GC and cannot give an opinion on it. Frankly I suspect that both sides are guilty of quelling any attempt at real dialogue. I can’t imagine this guy allowing a liberal to speak uninterrupted at a meeting — he’s much too hot-tempered. And I can say from experience that my own right-leaning opinions are met with amused silence at my own church.

In our search committee meetings, when we hit a particularly hot issue, we developed a practice of going round the table–everyone got to say their say, no one else could interrupt until it was their turn. We just kept going around the table until everyone wound down. It sometimes took a while, but in the end everyone felt like they had been heard. — Hugh "Thou didst desire man’s free love, that he should follow Thee freely, enticed and taken captive by Thee. In place of the rigid ancient law, man must hereafter with free heart decide for himself what is good and what is evil, having only Thy image before him as his guide." - Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

Response:

We had one all-parish meeting that was more of a vent and get things on the table type of affair than a problem solving exercise. It was pretty clear at that meeting that the large majority of the parish was fed up with the national church. I think he/we has resisted any additional meetings for fear of letting more worms out of the can. The Bishop had a meeting at this end of the Dicoese that ended up polarising things even worse than they were. For a kind and gentle soul, our Bishop seems to have developed a real knack for hacking folks off ’round these parts. The stain on our Priest is getting pretty obvious. He is supporting the position of our Bishop and the ECUSA on this and personally catching some flak for that. I am not sure if his defense is out of duty or personal conviction however. Sometimes I think he is working off of someone else’s talking points. Looking at where the budget is likely to be next year makes any full-time paid clergy look like a doubtful proposition. He’s a bright guy, I am sure he can figure it out. He has painted himself into a bit of a corner in arguing that the Bible should be interpruted in light of our changing social norms when talking about recent events. When talking about stewardship, he argues for a pretty darn literal interprutation of the Book.

Response:

Yes, in my parish (in NH) we had one meeting with a member of the search committee that chose Gene. I felt it did more harm than good, mostly because it was conducted as an open bitching session rather than a strucutured forum for discussing the issues. As I’ve said elsewhere, I believe the people who chose and elected Gene are acting out of their sense of what God’s will for us is–but the onus is certainly on them to explain what they’re doing and how they see that as compatible with Christian morality. They probably would not have convinced anyone, but they might at least have shown that they take the underlying issues seriously. I’m sorry that things are so difficult in your parish and that your rector is having such a hard time with it. FWIW, my attitude is that the harvest is still heavy and the laborers are still few, and the sooner we get back to work the sooner we’ll work our way back to a common sense of purpose. It’s Advent this Sunday. Let’s all relax a bit and let our liturgy remind us of what’s timeless in our Church. That’s what it’s there for, after all. — Hugh "Thou didst desire man’s free love, that he should follow Thee freely, enticed and taken captive by Thee. In place of the rigid ancient law, man must hereafter with free heart decide for himself what is good and what is evil, having only Thy image before him as his guide." - Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

Response:

Going by reports from a friend of mine who was at GC (first clergy alternate from a nearby state), his notions are way off the mark. Priscilla

Response:

Going by reports from a friend of mine who was at GC (first clergy alternate from a nearby state), his notions are way off the mark.

Yes, well, it’s best to take his pronouncements with a grain of salt. He is … passionate … about his positions. — From all sedicion and pryvie conspiracie, from the tyrannye of the Bysshop of Rome, and al hys detestable enormities, from al false doctryne and heresy, from hardnes of hearte, and contempte of thy worde and commaundement. Good lord, deliver us. from the Litany, 1549 BCP

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Our situations have some interesting parallels. We lost our Rectors a couple of years ago. It was time for them to move on to bigger and better opportunities. We just finished the search process and had brought on a new Rector who’s specialty was parish growth at the first of this year. Momentum was starting to build and good things were happening. That has all changed now. A real tough hand for the new Rector to deal with — I doubt he’ll stay much longer. Our deal was that he’d take below market compensation for a few years until the parish grew to a point where we could offer a more competative package. Since that looks very unlikely in this brave new world, I suspect he’ll find a new home in the ECUSA. He’s a gifted preacher so will find a new situation easily. We, on the other hand, don’t fit the mold as far as the politics of the national organization goes. We may not have a home there. Don’t know if there is a home for us a parish, we may just scatter and be assimilated by other denominations. Which is all the sadder because, as you say above, stripping the political correctness and polititcal activism away from the ECUSA, there is so much that is good and valuable in what used the be the Anglican presence in the US. The whole "way of being" of the Episcopal church is so appropriate for an increasingly unchurched segment of our society. That segment is one that, if it hears The Word, and believes The Word, and lives The Word, can make more of positive change in the larger society than all the fringe protest movements ever will.

Note in passing: I was unchurched until I found, in ECUSA, a church which didn’t demonize me as an abomination and second-class human being. I’m sorry about your situation, but there are plenty of other people (like me) who have found new life because of this. I really wish conservatives could understand this, but, sadly, I don’t think they ever will. L – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Perhaps the ECUSA leadership could form EPAC (Episcopal Poltitical Action Committee) and leave the Church stuff to a new organization.

Response:

We have made some progress since my post below. Our pledge total now stands within a few dollars of half of last year’s total. Looks like we’ll have to get used to Morning Prayer most of the time as we’ll probably not have full time clergy much longer. Finally going to have a parish meeting to discuss "the issues" (in depth I hope) in a few weeks. Maybe then we can find a way to keep the parish together that is an acceptable compromise to all. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t know the detailed breakdown, but our pledge total is down by almost 60% from last year at this time. Number of pledge cards returned is down but don’t know how much. A number of generous pledgers have left earlier in the year. No new memebers. Attendance down. Rough road ahead. Real rough. The parish is quickly becoming a bunch of old people worried that there will not be anyone left when it comes time for their funeral.

Response:

Are you getting vibes from him about this? Seems hard to commit yourself to a parish and get so totally thrown off by what’s happening elsewhere in the country. I’d think he’d be looking for ways to pull through the tough times and support in doing so. Have you as a parish sat down and asked yourselves where you go from here, and what you can do to recover the sense of possibility you had not so long ago? — Hugh "Thou didst desire man’s free love, that he should follow Thee freely, enticed and taken captive by Thee. In place of the rigid ancient law, man must hereafter with free heart decide for himself what is good and what is evil, having only Thy image before him as his guide." - Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

Response:

Louis, Why the politics of sexual orientation seem to break on liberal/conservative fault lines I don’t know. Perhaps it is because many of the early gay activists seemed to be drawn from the creative communities where liberal politics were the norm? Once a few visable activists were identified as gay and liberal, the conservatives probably felt obliged to assume their role in the dance of political division, Kind of a, "If they’re for it, I guess we’re against it" reaction. Don’t know here, just guessing. As a fairly conservative parish, it may surprise you to know that we have, and have had, homosexuals as members. No one makes a big deal of it. We tend to interact with each other as individuals rather than as labels. Someone that lives loudly as a label probably wouldn’t fit in comfortably. A few years before I joined, we had a gay man as a member that died of AIDs in the care of the parish. His family had cut him off when he came out. The parish gathered around and supported him until the disease claimed him. If I have my oral history correct, there was some strain during that time. They say we lost a few members over the events. Sounds like there was a mix of simple fear of the disease in the early years of the epidemic, and a very few folks being (in today’s language) anti-gay. I’d like to flatter my parish and think that you could have found your new life here. I don’t know of anything here that would have prevented it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Note in passing: I was unchurched until I found, in ECUSA, a church which didn’t demonize me as an abomination and second-class human being. I’m sorry about your situation, but there are plenty of other people (like me) who have found new life because of this. I really wish conservatives could understand this, but, sadly, I don’t think they ever will. L Perhaps the ECUSA leadership could form EPAC (Episcopal Poltitical Action Committee) and leave the Church stuff to a new organization.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Early results from the Every Member Canvas, here in a NH parish: 23 familes lowered their pledge, 62 raised it. The rest about the same. — Hugh "Thou didst desire man’s free love, that he should follow Thee freely, enticed and taken captive by Thee. In place of the rigid ancient law, man must hereafter with free heart decide for himself what is good and what is evil, having only Thy image before him as his guide." - Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov Don’t know the detailed breakdown, but our pledge total is down by almost 60% from last year at this time. Number of pledge cards returned is down but don’t know how much. A number of generous pledgers have left earlier in the year. No new memebers. Attendance down. Rough road ahead. Real rough. The parish is quickly becoming a bunch of old people worried that there will not be anyone left when it comes time for their funeral. Then I’ll tell you the same thing I told +Gene Robinson: the best cure for malaise is to get up off your butts and do something worthwhile. What can you do in your parish that will make people excited about their church again? — Hugh "Thou didst desire man’s free love, that he should follow Thee freely, enticed and taken captive by Thee. In place of the rigid ancient law, man must hereafter with free heart decide for himself what is good and what is evil, having only Thy image before him as his guide." - Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

Actually, our membership was growing and our income was well ahead of budget this year until the GC. After that, income dropped by 25% per week and attendance has been dwindeling. No formal protests, no organized resistance to the national events. Just kind of a quiet dignified Anglican kind of death I think. But, as a rural parish in a fairly conservative part of the world we are expendable. We understand that now. Our church has left/is leaving us. We were just slow to recognize it. People like us, and places like ours don’t matter — not to important people living important lives in important places who do what makes them feel important. Perhaps the Anglican Communion will still take us if we survive long enough for the dust to settle. Perhaps we will just scatter like the dust in the winds of change. We’ll find our way. The path is unclear at the moment but we’ll find one. With most of the parish over 70 years old, it is a little much to ask them to carry this heavy water and to get off their butts. They should be drawing interest in the form of comfort and support in their last years on their lifelong contribution to the Church. Someone looted their spiritual 401K’s and left them with precious little. I am sure it was for a good cause however.

Response:

… No formal protests, no organized resistance to the national events…

That’s what I suspect is happening in our parish. We had the misfortune to lose our rector two years ago in a VERY unpleasant episode (the vestry requested the bishop remove the rector), and were just getting back on our feet when the uproar at the GC hit the newstands. Budget is down AGAIN, and we will be a long time recovering from all this. And we’re a downtown church in a major metropolitan area. What bothers me is that the PECUSA still has a great deal to offer, certainly much more than Rome or the SBC, to name just two. But all this bad press is scaring off converts and driving out the oldtimers. These are tough times. — From all sedicion and pryvie conspiracie, from the tyrannye of the Bysshop of Rome, and al hys detestable enormities, from al false doctryne and heresy, from hardnes of hearte, and contempte of thy worde and commaundement. Good lord, deliver us. from the Litany, 1549 BCP

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … No formal protests, no organized resistance to the national events… That’s what I suspect is happening in our parish. We had the misfortune to lose our rector two years ago in a VERY unpleasant episode (the vestry requested the bishop remove the rector), and were just getting back on our feet when the uproar at the GC hit the newstands. Budget is down AGAIN, and we will be a long time recovering from all this. And we’re a downtown church in a major metropolitan area. What bothers me is that the PECUSA still has a great deal to offer, certainly much more than Rome or the SBC, to name just two. But all this bad press is scaring off converts and driving out the oldtimers. These are tough times. — From all sedicion and pryvie conspiracie, from the tyrannye of the Bysshop of Rome, and al hys detestable enormities, from al false doctryne and heresy, from hardnes of hearte, and contempte of thy worde and commaundement. Good lord, deliver us. from the Litany, 1549 BCP

Our situations have some interesting parallels. We lost our Rectors a couple of years ago. It was time for them to move on to bigger and better opportunities. We just finished the search process and had brought on a new Rector who’s specialty was parish growth at the first of this year. Momentum was starting to build and good things were happening. That has all changed now. A real tough hand for the new Rector to deal with — I doubt he’ll stay much longer. Our deal was that he’d take below market compensation for a few years until the parish grew to a point where we could offer a more competative package. Since that looks very unlikely in this brave new world, I suspect he’ll find a new home in the ECUSA. He’s a gifted preacher so will find a new situation easily. We, on the other hand, don’t fit the mold as far as the politics of the national organization goes. We may not have a home there. Don’t know if there is a home for us a parish, we may just scatter and be assimilated by other denominations. Which is all the sadder because, as you say above, stripping the political correctness and polititcal activism away from the ECUSA, there is so much that is good and valuable in what used the be the Anglican presence in the US. The whole "way of being" of the Episcopal church is so appropriate for an increasingly unchurched segment of our society. That segment is one that, if it hears The Word, and believes The Word, and lives The Word, can make more of positive change in the larger society than all the fringe protest movements ever will. Perhaps the ECUSA leadership could form EPAC (Episcopal Poltitical Action Committee) and leave the Church stuff to a new organization.

Response:

Early results from the Every Member Canvas, here in a NH parish: 23 familes lowered their pledge, 62 raised it. The rest about the same. — Hugh "Thou didst desire man’s free love, that he should follow Thee freely, enticed and taken captive by Thee. In place of the rigid ancient law, man must hereafter with free heart decide for himself what is good and what is evil, having only Thy image before him as his guide." - Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

Response:

Early results from the Every Member Canvas, here in a NH parish: 23 familes lowered their pledge, 62 raised it. The rest about the same.

How do those compare with the past few years? The economy’s not bouncing back yet, and that might just account for some reductions in pledges. Priscilla

Response:

Early results from the Every Member Canvas, here in a NH parish: 23 familes lowered their pledge, 62 raised it. The rest about the same. How do those compare with the past few years? The economy’s not bouncing back yet, and that might just account for some reductions in pledges. Priscilla

Right, anybody’s guess. I know some people are still hurting. I know some people are hurting and raised their pledges anyway. And, of course, some people left and aren’t in the count. — Hugh "Thou didst desire man’s free love, that he should follow Thee freely, enticed and taken captive by Thee. In place of the rigid ancient law, man must hereafter with free heart decide for himself what is good and what is evil, having only Thy image before him as his guide." - Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

Response:

Don’t know the detailed breakdown, but our pledge total is down by almost 60% from last year at this time. Number of pledge cards returned is down but don’t know how much. A number of generous pledgers have left earlier in the year. No new memebers. Attendance down. Rough road ahead. Real rough. The parish is quickly becoming a bunch of old people worried that there will not be anyone left when it comes time for their funeral.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Early results from the Every Member Canvas, here in a NH parish: 23 familes lowered their pledge, 62 raised it. The rest about the same. — Hugh "Thou didst desire man’s free love, that he should follow Thee freely, enticed and taken captive by Thee. In place of the rigid ancient law, man must hereafter with free heart decide for himself what is good and what is evil, having only Thy image before him as his guide." - Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov Don’t know the detailed breakdown, but our pledge total is down by almost 60% from last year at this time. Number of pledge cards returned is down but don’t know how much. A number of generous pledgers have left earlier in the year. No new memebers. Attendance down. Rough road ahead. Real rough. The parish is quickly becoming a bunch of old people worried that there will not be anyone left when it comes time for their funeral.

Then I’ll tell you the same thing I told +Gene Robinson: the best cure for malaise is to get up off your butts and do something worthwhile. What can you do in your parish that will make people excited about their church again? — Hugh "Thou didst desire man’s free love, that he should follow Thee freely, enticed and taken captive by Thee. In place of the rigid ancient law, man must hereafter with free heart decide for himself what is good and what is evil, having only Thy image before him as his guide." - Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

Response:

Fore Bill

admin — Mon, 22 Sep 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Thank you for posting this, Daisy. (I’m not convinced it will register, though). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Like I said until you’ve walked in their shoes you have NO IDEA……you’re a very judgemental person, must be a very hard life for you….such a pity. Daisy A person who disrespect him self disrespect other’s to. This was until now my experience with suicide people. I know a few. Total selfish and total self absorbed people. And this is funny? Do you have any idea what goes through a persons mind when they are contemplating suicide? I don’t think you do or you wouldn’t of posted this. It’s not pretty nor is it easy to deal with day in and day out. Believe me I know. Daisy http://www.freep.com/suicide/index.htm Have fun.

Response:

Hey Daisy – thanks again for posting this, but where have you been? We don’t see much of you in here anymore, it seems.

Like I said until you’ve walked in their shoes you have NO IDEA……you’re a very judgemental person, must be a very hard life for you….such a pity. Daisy A person who disrespect him self disrespect other’s to. This was until now my experience with suicide people. I know a few. Total selfish and total self absorbed people.

And this is funny? Do you have any idea what goes through a persons mind when they are contemplating suicide? I don’t think you do or you wouldn’t of posted this. It’s not pretty nor is it easy to deal with day in and day out. Believe me I know. Daisy http://www.freep.com/suicide/index.htm Have fun.

Response:

Ain’t it the truth… And is true for so many things in life….

Response:

Yes, and we shouldn’t feel guilty about it, but in our "advanced" society, we do. Yet if the truth be told, we know what the most humane thing is, at least in many cases.

Response:

Doctors make mistakes to.

Doctors swear themselves to something called the "Hippocratic Oath" "…above all else, do no harm" The difference between a "mistake" and the conscious ending of a life, is a debate that has yet to be resolved, apparently. I *my* mind,…the distinction is clear.

Response:

A person who disrespect him self disrespect other’s to. This was until now my experience with suicide people. I know a few. Total selfish and total self absorbed people. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And this is funny? Do you have any idea what goes through a persons mind when they are contemplating suicide? I don’t think you do or you wouldn’t of posted this. It’s not pretty nor is it easy to deal with day in and day out. Believe me I know. Daisy http://www.freep.com/suicide/index.htm Have fun.

Response:

You seem to forget that he failed to verify people’s illnesses. In that vain, I would call him a murderer. – Bill in Co stood up at show-n-tell, in – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know what he was like personally, but he did help some people out of their predicament. How would you like to have to live with Alzheimer’s? Or degenerative brain cancer? He gave them an "out", at THEIR request, so they wouldn’t have to live like a vegetable. Jack Kervorkian is a self-aggrandizing shit who preyed on others’ despair. So is his attorney. I noted that one of his patrons was found to have no trace of MS, after being diagnosed with it, upon autopsy. Seems to me, he didn’t really do things professionally. Otherwise, he would have required some evidence of the disease being present in said individual. Sounds more like some guy that got his jollies by killing people, under the guise of ’saint’… – Bill in Co stood up at show-n-tell, in I have absolutely no problem with what Dr. Jack Kevorkian did. In fact, I think it was commendable, for the cases he had. But last I heard, he was put out of business, presumably due to some pro-lifers (= anti-abortionists). http://www.freep.com/suicide/index.htm Have fun. Xenos, are you trying to shock Bill into some sense ? Is it meant to be a joke ? Are you really trying to encourage Bill to do that ? If the last is true then you are really sick. Bill is a valuable human like the rest of us (maybe even you but at times like this I have my doubts). bogey — Strontium "It’s no surprise, to me. I am my own worst enemy. `Cause every now, and then, I kick the livin’ shit `outta me." – Lit

– Strontium "It’s no surprise, to me. I am my own worst enemy. `Cause every now, and then, I kick the livin’ shit `outta me." – Lit

Response:

I have a friend who was a professional killer. Because he is a friend he would kill me free of charge. He knows how to do it but i don’t need this service at the moment. My uncle who lives in the US has connections to the mob. Want he’s address?

Response:

I will admit there were times in the last few months this has crossed my mind while watching my mother suffer.

Response:

Doctors make mistakes to. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You seem to forget that he failed to verify people’s illnesses. In that vain, I would call him a murderer. – Bill in Co stood up at show-n-tell, in I don’t know what he was like personally, but he did help some people out of their predicament. How would you like to have to live with Alzheimer’s? Or degenerative brain cancer? He gave them an "out", at THEIR request, so they wouldn’t have to live like a vegetable. Jack Kervorkian is a self-aggrandizing shit who preyed on others’ despair. So is his attorney. I noted that one of his patrons was found to have no trace of MS, after being diagnosed with it, upon autopsy. Seems to me, he didn’t really do things professionally. Otherwise, he would have required some evidence of the disease being present in said individual. Sounds more like some guy that got his jollies by killing people, under the guise of ’saint’… – Bill in Co stood up at show-n-tell, in I have absolutely no problem with what Dr. Jack Kevorkian did. In fact, I think it was commendable, for the cases he had. But last I heard, he was put out of business, presumably due to some pro-lifers (= anti-abortionists). http://www.freep.com/suicide/index.htm Have fun. Xenos, are you trying to shock Bill into some sense ? Is it meant to be a joke ? Are you really trying to encourage Bill to do that ? If the last is true then you are really sick. Bill is a valuable human like the rest of us (maybe even you but at times like this I have my doubts). bogey — Strontium "It’s no surprise, to me. I am my own worst enemy. `Cause every now, and then, I kick the livin’ shit `outta me." – Lit — Strontium "It’s no surprise, to me. I am my own worst enemy. `Cause every now, and then, I kick the livin’ shit `outta me." – Lit

Response:

Xenos, I wish you peace and happiness. bogey – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.freep.com/suicide/index.htm Have fun. Xenos, are you trying to shock Bill into some sense ? Pointing out the last option to Bill and to my self. But not fore now not this year. My grandfather it the age of 84 could not live anymore and could not die either. So he was banging he’s head against the wall. That did not kill kim. It caused him to have hemorrhoids in he’s head. 3 months later he was dead. So long my dick is standing and i don’t shit in my pants i want to live. I would miss Bill’s post’s if he would kill him self ( he is a jerk sometimes but who isn’t? ) Is it meant to be a joke ? There is written have fun. Are you really trying to encourage Bill to do that ? If the last is true then you are really sick. I am sick but not that sick. Bill is a valuable human like the rest of us (maybe even you but at times like this I have my doubts). bogey

Response:

Jack Kervorkian is a self-aggrandizing shit who preyed on others’ despair. So is his attorney. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noted that one of his patrons was found to have no trace of MS, after being diagnosed with it, upon autopsy. Seems to me, he didn’t really do things professionally. Otherwise, he would have required some evidence of the disease being present in said individual. Sounds more like some guy that got his jollies by killing people, under the guise of ’saint’… – Bill in Co stood up at show-n-tell, in I have absolutely no problem with what Dr. Jack Kevorkian did. In fact, I think it was commendable, for the cases he had. But last I heard, he was put out of business, presumably due to some pro-lifers (= anti-abortionists). http://www.freep.com/suicide/index.htm Have fun. Xenos, are you trying to shock Bill into some sense ? Is it meant to be a joke ? Are you really trying to encourage Bill to do that ? If the last is true then you are really sick. Bill is a valuable human like the rest of us (maybe even you but at times like this I have my doubts). bogey — Strontium "It’s no surprise, to me. I am my own worst enemy. `Cause every now, and then, I kick the livin’ shit `outta me." – Lit

Response:

Look,…this goomer was doing his deeds in my neck of the woods. While youse guys may have caught a national news story now and then, he was on my TV constantly. No matter how altruistic the idea of euthanasia may be to you, this guy did these things FOR HIS OWN publicity. In his mind, (based on his own words in interviews you *didn’t* see) he had become more important than his patients. Ends justifying means, and all that. I mean,…where’s all the clamor now? If it was so damn important to Geoffrey Figer, why no uproar NOW? The puke is on TV every f**cking night! Not a word about it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know what he was like personally, but he did help some people out of their predicament. How would you like to have to live with Alzheimer’s? Or degenerative brain cancer? He gave them an "out", at THEIR request, so they wouldn’t have to live like a vegetable. Jack Kervorkian is a self-aggrandizing shit who preyed on others’ despair. So is his attorney. I noted that one of his patrons was found to have no trace of MS, after being diagnosed with it, upon autopsy. Seems to me, he didn’t really do things professionally. Otherwise, he would have required some evidence of the disease being present in said individual. Sounds more like some guy that got his jollies by killing people, under the guise of ’saint’… – Bill in Co stood up at show-n-tell, in I have absolutely no problem with what Dr. Jack Kevorkian did. In fact, I think it was commendable, for the cases he had. But last I heard, he was put out of business, presumably due to some pro-lifers (= anti-abortionists). http://www.freep.com/suicide/index.htm Have fun. Xenos, are you trying to shock Bill into some sense ? Is it meant to be a joke ? Are you really trying to encourage Bill to do that ? If the last is true then you are really sick. Bill is a valuable human like the rest of us (maybe even you but at times like this I have my doubts). bogey — Strontium "It’s no surprise, to me. I am my own worst enemy. `Cause every now, and then, I kick the livin’ shit `outta me." – Lit Due Unto Others A tribute to Dr. Death By Kevin Cassell That people oppose the conscientious activism of Jack Kervorkian astounds me. If I were suffering from an incurable and progressively worsening conditon, it is my right to be given the opportunity to end my life. Dr. Kervorkian would allow me to do so with dignity and ease . Anyone who would oppose his helping me, on any "moral" or "biblical" ground, in my opinion, is sticking his or her nose where it doesn’t belong. If they are not in my shoes, in my bed, in my circumstances, they have no right — repeat, NO RIGHT — to comment on any decision I make, so long as it is rationally and carefully determined. Dr. Kervorkian may be a bit flakey at times, but in his heart he has taken the moral high road. Unfortunately we live in a culture where a loud and obnoxious band of morality makers have the clout and verve to impose their notions of life and death on others. Death is "bad," life is "good," — that is their logic. Well, life IS good when you can get up every morning and brush your own teeth and hang out with loved ones and go to movies and eat at restaurants. But if you’re suffering from a degenerative disease in which every waking moment is agony, let’s face it: Life is NOT good. Death is inevitable. It is beyond good and evil. And although most people don’t actively seek it, and in fact strenuously (and futilely) try to combat it, ultimately everyone succumbs to it. If I’m diagnosed with an incurable disease which promises to debilitate and ultimately kill me with no small amount of physical and emotional suffering, then the option of an earlier, easier, painless death ought to be given to me. http://kevincassell.com/PERSON/POLITICS/left/death.html

Response:

http://www.aristarchus.org/pdf/kervorkian.pdf – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.freep.com/suicide/index.htm Have fun.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know what he was like personally, but he did help some people out of their predicament. How would you like to have to live with Alzheimer’s? Or degenerative brain cancer? He gave them an "out", at THEIR request, so they wouldn’t have to live like a vegetable. Jack Kervorkian is a self-aggrandizing shit who preyed on others’ despair. So is his attorney. I noted that one of his patrons was found to have no trace of MS, after being diagnosed with it, upon autopsy. Seems to me, he didn’t really do things professionally. Otherwise, he would have required some evidence of the disease being present in said individual. Sounds more like some guy that got his jollies by killing people, under the guise of ’saint’… – Bill in Co stood up at show-n-tell, in I have absolutely no problem with what Dr. Jack Kevorkian did. In fact, I think it was commendable, for the cases he had. But last I heard, he was put out of business, presumably due to some pro-lifers (= anti-abortionists). http://www.freep.com/suicide/index.htm Have fun. Xenos, are you trying to shock Bill into some sense ? Is it meant to be a joke ? Are you really trying to encourage Bill to do that ? If the last is true then you are really sick. Bill is a valuable human like the rest of us (maybe even you but at times like this I have my doubts). bogey — Strontium "It’s no surprise, to me. I am my own worst enemy. `Cause every now, and then, I kick the livin’ shit `outta me." – Lit

Due Unto Others A tribute to Dr. Death By Kevin Cassell That people oppose the conscientious activism of Jack Kervorkian astounds me. If I were suffering from an incurable and progressively worsening conditon, it is my right to be given the opportunity to end my life. Dr. Kervorkian would allow me to do so with dignity and ease . Anyone who would oppose his helping me, on any "moral" or "biblical" ground, in my opinion, is sticking his or her nose where it doesn’t belong. If they are not in my shoes, in my bed, in my circumstances, they have no right — repeat, NO RIGHT — to comment on any decision I make, so long as it is rationally and carefully determined. Dr. Kervorkian may be a bit flakey at times, but in his heart he has taken the moral high road. Unfortunately we live in a culture where a loud and obnoxious band of morality makers have the clout and verve to impose their notions of life and death on others. Death is "bad," life is "good," — that is their logic. Well, life IS good when you can get up every morning and brush your own teeth and hang out with loved ones and go to movies and eat at restaurants. But if you’re suffering from a degenerative disease in which every waking moment is agony, let’s face it: Life is NOT good. Death is inevitable. It is beyond good and evil. And although most people don’t actively seek it, and in fact strenuously (and futilely) try to combat it, ultimately everyone succumbs to it. If I’m diagnosed with an incurable disease which promises to debilitate and ultimately kill me with no small amount of physical and emotional suffering, then the option of an earlier, easier, painless death ought to be given to me. http://kevincassell.com/PERSON/POLITICS/left/death.html

Response:

I don’t know what he was like personally, but he did help some people out of their predicament. How would you like to have to live with Alzheimer’s? Or degenerative brain cancer? He gave them an "out", at THEIR request, so they wouldn’t have to live like a vegetable. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jack Kervorkian is a self-aggrandizing shit who preyed on others’ despair. So is his attorney. I noted that one of his patrons was found to have no trace of MS, after being diagnosed with it, upon autopsy. Seems to me, he didn’t really do things professionally. Otherwise, he would have required some evidence of the disease being present in said individual. Sounds more like some guy that got his jollies by killing people, under the guise of ’saint’… – Bill in Co stood up at show-n-tell, in I have absolutely no problem with what Dr. Jack Kevorkian did. In fact, I think it was commendable, for the cases he had. But last I heard, he was put out of business, presumably due to some pro-lifers (= anti-abortionists). http://www.freep.com/suicide/index.htm Have fun. Xenos, are you trying to shock Bill into some sense ? Is it meant to be a joke ? Are you really trying to encourage Bill to do that ? If the last is true then you are really sick. Bill is a valuable human like the rest of us (maybe even you but at times like this I have my doubts). bogey — Strontium "It’s no surprise, to me. I am my own worst enemy. `Cause every now, and then, I kick the livin’ shit `outta me." – Lit

Response:

Hey, there are some sick people, out there. I wouldn’t put it past, anyone… – Bill in Co stood up at show-n-tell, in – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "…that got his jollies by killing people, under the guise of ’saint’… Yeah, right. "Got his jollies" – I’m sure. (You’re more cynical than even me here). I noted that one of his patrons was found to have no trace of MS, after being diagnosed with it, upon autopsy. Seems to me, he didn’t really do things professionally. Otherwise, he would have required some evidence of the disease being present in said individual. Sounds more like some guy that got his jollies by killing people, under the guise of ’saint’… – Bill in Co stood up at show-n-tell, in I have absolutely no problem with what Dr. Jack Kevorkian did. In fact, I think it was commendable, for the cases he had. But last I heard, he was put out of business, presumably due to some pro-lifers (= anti-abortionists). http://www.freep.com/suicide/index.htm Have fun. Xenos, are you trying to shock Bill into some sense ? Is it meant to be a joke ? Are you really trying to encourage Bill to do that ? If the last is true then you are really sick. Bill is a valuable human like the rest of us (maybe even you but at times like this I have my doubts). bogey — Strontium "It’s no surprise, to me. I am my own worst enemy. `Cause every now, and then, I kick the livin’ shit `outta me." – Lit

– Strontium "It’s no surprise, to me. I am my own worst enemy. `Cause every now, and then, I kick the livin’ shit `outta me." – Lit

Response:

http://www.freep.com/suicide/index.htm Have fun. Xenos, are you trying to shock Bill into some sense ?

Pointing out the last option to Bill and to my self. But not fore now not this year. My grandfather it the age of 84 could not live anymore and could not die either. So he was banging he’s head against the wall. That did not kill kim. It caused him to have hemorrhoids in he’s head. 3 months later he was dead. So long my dick is standing and i don’t shit in my pants i want to live. I would miss Bill’s post’s if he would kill him self ( he is a jerk sometimes but who isn’t? ) Is it meant to be a joke ?

There is written have fun. Are you really trying to encourage Bill to do that ? If the last is true then you are really sick.

I am sick but not that sick. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill is a valuable human like the rest of us (maybe even you but at times like this I have my doubts). bogey

Response:

"…that got his jollies by killing people, under the guise of ’saint’… Yeah, right. "Got his jollies" – I’m sure. (You’re more cynical than even me here). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noted that one of his patrons was found to have no trace of MS, after being diagnosed with it, upon autopsy. Seems to me, he didn’t really do things professionally. Otherwise, he would have required some evidence of the disease being present in said individual. Sounds more like some guy that got his jollies by killing people, under the guise of ’saint’… – Bill in Co stood up at show-n-tell, in I have absolutely no problem with what Dr. Jack Kevorkian did. In fact, I think it was commendable, for the cases he had. But last I heard, he was put out of business, presumably due to some pro-lifers (= anti-abortionists). http://www.freep.com/suicide/index.htm Have fun. Xenos, are you trying to shock Bill into some sense ? Is it meant to be a joke ? Are you really trying to encourage Bill to do that ? If the last is true then you are really sick. Bill is a valuable human like the rest of us (maybe even you but at times like this I have my doubts). bogey — Strontium "It’s no surprise, to me. I am my own worst enemy. `Cause every now, and then, I kick the livin’ shit `outta me." – Lit

Response:

I noted that one of his patrons was found to have no trace of MS, after being diagnosed with it, upon autopsy. Seems to me, he didn’t really do things professionally. Otherwise, he would have required some evidence of the disease being present in said individual. Sounds more like some guy that got his jollies by killing people, under the guise of ’saint’… – Bill in Co stood up at show-n-tell, in – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have absolutely no problem with what Dr. Jack Kevorkian did. In fact, I think it was commendable, for the cases he had. But last I heard, he was put out of business, presumably due to some pro-lifers (= anti-abortionists). http://www.freep.com/suicide/index.htm Have fun. Xenos, are you trying to shock Bill into some sense ? Is it meant to be a joke ? Are you really trying to encourage Bill to do that ? If the last is true then you are really sick. Bill is a valuable human like the rest of us (maybe even you but at times like this I have my doubts). bogey

– Strontium "It’s no surprise, to me. I am my own worst enemy. `Cause every now, and then, I kick the livin’ shit `outta me." – Lit

Response:

http://www.freep.com/suicide/index.htm Have fun.

Response:

http://www.freep.com/suicide/index.htm Have fun.

Xenos, are you trying to shock Bill into some sense ? Is it meant to be a joke ? Are you really trying to encourage Bill to do that ? If the last is true then you are really sick. Bill is a valuable human like the rest of us (maybe even you but at times like this I have my doubts). bogey

Response:

I have absolutely no problem with what Dr. Jack Kevorkian did. In fact, I think it was commendable, for the cases he had. But last I heard, he was put out of business, presumably due to some pro-lifers (= anti-abortionists). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.freep.com/suicide/index.htm Have fun. Xenos, are you trying to shock Bill into some sense ? Is it meant to be a joke ? Are you really trying to encourage Bill to do that ? If the last is true then you are really sick. Bill is a valuable human like the rest of us (maybe even you but at times like this I have my doubts). bogey

Response:

"But The Greatest Of These Is Love…."

admin — Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just wanted to comment that discussions like the one following gives me reason to realize that God still moves among us. This is the kind of discussion that gets beyond the shallow "I don’t like this," etc., and begins to look at the stuff going on underneath. We are all broken. And so, of course, the Church is broken. And we cannot fix it. We are totally dependent on God for healing. Out of this frustration of being broken, being powerless, there is a strong temptation to turn on each other. If we can’t fix it, we can at least place the blame where it belongs for our brokeness. But this does not bring healing. It simply opens the wound anew. We are bound together, if we like it or not. Our individual healing will not change much. Our salvation is yoked to one another. The Body of Christ seeks the healing touch of God. My faith leads me to believe that this healing is happening, regardless of the evidence to the contrary I witness. This faith in things not seen gets stretched thin a bit at times. It is refreshing to see it embodied once in awhile. Terry

I wish I had your faith. m

Response:

It is a blessing to see the strength the Lord’s worked in you. Praise Him! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just wanted to comment that discussions like the one following gives me reason to realize that God still moves among us. This is the kind of discussion that gets beyond the shallow "I don’t like this," etc., and begins to look at the stuff going on underneath. We are all broken. And so, of course, the Church is broken. And we cannot fix it. We are totally dependent on God for healing. Out of this frustration of being broken, being powerless, there is a strong temptation to turn on each other. If we can’t fix it, we can at least place the blame where it belongs for our brokeness. But this does not bring healing. It simply opens the wound anew. We are bound together, if we like it or not. Our individual healing will not change much. Our salvation is yoked to one another. The Body of Christ seeks the healing touch of God. My faith leads me to believe that this healing is happening, regardless of the evidence to the contrary I witness. This faith in things not seen gets stretched thin a bit at times. It is refreshing to see it embodied once in awhile. Terry I wish I had your faith. m

Response:

Among all the participants in this community, he is the only one who consistently uses the term "sodomite" to refer disparagingly to gay Christians — even though competent Biblical scholarship (repeatedly referenced by Terry) has verified that the issue at hand in Sodom was the social disrespect of visitors, and not any demonstrable attempt to commit sexual rape against them.

Not according to the New Testament. ". . . just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire."–Jude, verse 7. Charles Hohenstein Boycott French products! http://www.FranceStinks.com/ http://www.pavefrance.com/blog/

Response:

Just wanted to comment that discussions like the one following gives me reason to realize that God still moves among us. This is the kind of discussion that gets beyond the shallow "I don’t like this," etc., and begins to look at the stuff going on underneath. We are all broken. And so, of course, the Church is broken. And we cannot fix it. We are totally dependent on God for healing. Out of this frustration of being broken, being powerless, there is a strong temptation to turn on each other. If we can’t fix it, we can at least place the blame where it belongs for our brokeness. But this does not bring healing. It simply opens the wound anew. We are bound together, if we like it or not. Our individual healing will not change much. Our salvation is yoked to one another. The Body of Christ seeks the healing touch of God. My faith leads me to believe that this healing is happening, regardless of the evidence to the contrary I witness. This faith in things not seen gets stretched thin a bit at times. It is refreshing to see it embodied once in awhile. Terry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – btw: One can fight for gay equality and still be a conservative. Surprise! Indeed, and thank you for presenting a "voice of reason" here! I don’t know if Charles has ever really "heard" where I’m coming from, as a matter of belief and attitude. For the record: a). I happen to be a liturgical "conservative", finding the traditional Anglican liturgy (and the traditional RC liturgy, for that matter) to be one of the most graceful expressions of Divine Presence on the planet. I agree. b). As to Charles’ allegation (elsewhere) that "AMiA is thriving", I absolutely WELCOME this development, if it’s true! It gives the deep traditionalists an opportunity to worship according to conscience, and in a congenial and collegial parish environment. My only stipulation is that AMiA not attempt to "hijack" ECUSA, in the way that "Opus Dei" is attempting to hijack parish-level Roman Catholicism, and forcibly re-tool the basically tolerant and generous pastoral instincts of most parish-level Catholics (and local priests) into a version of the viciousness and the mean-spiritedness of Ratzinger and his ilk. I don’t much care what the RC’s are up to. As to ECUSA, it’s a shame it’s breaking apart but, as we see here, the two sides seem to have about as much chance of reconciling as do the Israelis and Palestinians. My own view is that I pretty much like the AMiA’s attempt to get back to traditional liturgy and theology while I vehemently disagree with their social agenda (esp. re: gays). On the other hand, I like ECUSA’s policy of reaching out to gays while I am also dismayed by their theological and political liberalism. I find I have a home in neither (thus my beef with "organized religion"). c). My basic issue with Charles is not at all his theological conservatism, but his persistent and insulting rudeness toward gay Christians. Among all the participants in this community, he is the only one who consistently uses the term "sodomite" to refer disparagingly to gay Christians — even though competent Biblical scholarship (repeatedly referenced by Terry) has verified that the issue at hand in Sodom was the social disrespect of visitors, and not any demonstrable attempt to commit sexual rape against them. My own view of Charles and the like is that they are simply insane when it comes to homosexuality. And, as with all insanity, it is a situation for the doctors and not for reasoned debate. d). Finally, I think Charles and I have a very different understanding of the nature of "Scriptural revelation". I would maintain that everything in Scripture has been filtered through human minds, human brains, human prejudice, human culture, human fallibility, and human ignorance. It is entirely possible to accept that the grace and the charism and the inspiration of Scripture are indeed the work of the Holy Spirit — but that the "receivers" of this inspiration were very much "creatures of their culture", and that we need to make allowances for the vast differences between their lives and ours. I can’t quite go as far as you here. Revelation is revelation is revelation. If the HS can place info directly into the minds of humans surely He can also guide them towards communicating it correctly. However, I also take caution from Christianist fundies banging on the Bible and setting it up for worship, as well as pictures of Islamo-fascists holding up the Q’uran as if it were Allah Himself and that should stop all debate. The way I look at it is that there’s much in the Bible which is simply wrong – that is, _not_ revelatory. Slavery is one example, as is God’s command to commit genocide, or death for profaning the Sabbath. Nonsense. I look to Christ and His mission of Salvation as what is important; the rest I either take or leave in the light of that. The supposed stuff concerning homosexuality I leave. Why is it that ONLY "sexual matters" are regarded by contemporary conservatives as hard-core "moral issues" in Leviticus, while almost everything else (regarding clothing, the ritual "uncleanness" of women during their moon, and the dietary laws) may be rather easily dismissed, even by them, as "purely cultural"? Are we forgetting that the Patriarchs were polygamous, and that we are not? Clearly, sexual custom is as culturally relative as any of the Biblical dietary and clothing codes. I would argue that what is important in a sexual relationship is not the gender of the partner, but the quality of commitment, faithfulness, generosity, and undying support in the spiritual path shared by the partners. I just think Christianity has made itself irrelevant when it comes to gay people. Organized Christianity, that is. If the Church has anything it can possibly say to us it should just be apologies for centuries of the on-going persecution and oppression (including torture and murder) it has perpetrated against gays. I surely don’t ask or expect Charles to be convinced by my argument about the nature of revelation, and its relationship to inherent human fallibility. I merely implore him to begin showing a bit of collegial respect and charity toward gay Christians, whose lifestyle he may not personally approve, but who surely do not deserve to be treated with the abusive and contemptuous (and erroneous) rhetoric which he constantly flings at us. He is irrelevant. Ignore him. Yes, I’m breaking silence and returning to the fray. It’s hard not to do so, when the sting of ongoing insult and contempt that I feel coming from Charles — and from virtually nobody else in the broad-spectrum Episcopal community sharing our "big tent" news group — appears to be unrelieved by anything that anybody can say to him. Glad you’re back. m

Response:

btw: One can fight for gay equality and still be a conservative. Surprise! Indeed, and thank you for presenting a "voice of reason" here! I don’t know if Charles has ever really "heard" where I’m coming from, as a matter of belief and attitude. For the record: a). I happen to be a liturgical "conservative", finding the traditional Anglican liturgy (and the traditional RC liturgy, for that matter) to be one of the most graceful expressions of Divine Presence on the planet.

I agree. b). As to Charles’ allegation (elsewhere) that "AMiA is thriving", I absolutely WELCOME this development, if it’s true! It gives the deep traditionalists an opportunity to worship according to conscience, and in a congenial and collegial parish environment. My only stipulation is that AMiA not attempt to "hijack" ECUSA, in the way that "Opus Dei" is attempting to hijack parish-level Roman Catholicism, and forcibly re-tool the basically tolerant and generous pastoral instincts of most parish-level Catholics (and local priests) into a version of the viciousness and the mean-spiritedness of Ratzinger and his ilk.

I don’t much care what the RC’s are up to. As to ECUSA, it’s a shame it’s breaking apart but, as we see here, the two sides seem to have about as much chance of reconciling as do the Israelis and Palestinians. My own view is that I pretty much like the AMiA’s attempt to get back to traditional liturgy and theology while I vehemently disagree with their social agenda (esp. re: gays). On the other hand, I like ECUSA’s policy of reaching out to gays while I am also dismayed by their theological and political liberalism. I find I have a home in neither (thus my beef with "organized religion"). c). My basic issue with Charles is not at all his theological conservatism, but his persistent and insulting rudeness toward gay Christians. Among all the participants in this community, he is the only one who consistently uses the term "sodomite" to refer disparagingly to gay Christians — even though competent Biblical scholarship (repeatedly referenced by Terry) has verified that the issue at hand in Sodom was the social disrespect of visitors, and not any demonstrable attempt to commit sexual rape against them.

My own view of Charles and the like is that they are simply insane when it comes to homosexuality. And, as with all insanity, it is a situation for the doctors and not for reasoned debate. d). Finally, I think Charles and I have a very different understanding of the nature of "Scriptural revelation". I would maintain that everything in Scripture has been filtered through human minds, human brains, human prejudice, human culture, human fallibility, and human ignorance. It is entirely possible to accept that the grace and the charism and the inspiration of Scripture are indeed the work of the Holy Spirit — but that the "receivers" of this inspiration were very much "creatures of their culture", and that we need to make allowances for the vast differences between their lives and ours.

I can’t quite go as far as you here. Revelation is revelation is revelation. If the HS can place info directly into the minds of humans surely He can also guide them towards communicating it correctly. However, I also take caution from Christianist fundies banging on the Bible and setting it up for worship, as well as pictures of Islamo-fascists holding up the Q’uran as if it were Allah Himself and that should stop all debate. The way I look at it is that there’s much in the Bible which is simply wrong – that is, _not_ revelatory. Slavery is one example, as is God’s command to commit genocide, or death for profaning the Sabbath. Nonsense. I look to Christ and His mission of Salvation as what is important; the rest I either take or leave in the light of that. The supposed stuff concerning homosexuality I leave. Why is it that ONLY "sexual matters" are regarded by contemporary conservatives as hard-core "moral issues" in Leviticus, while almost everything else (regarding clothing, the ritual "uncleanness" of women during their moon, and the dietary laws) may be rather easily dismissed, even by them, as "purely cultural"? Are we forgetting that the Patriarchs were polygamous, and that we are not? Clearly, sexual custom is as culturally relative as any of the Biblical dietary and clothing codes. I would argue that what is important in a sexual relationship is not the gender of the partner, but the quality of commitment, faithfulness, generosity, and undying support in the spiritual path shared by the partners.

I just think Christianity has made itself irrelevant when it comes to gay people. Organized Christianity, that is. If the Church has anything it can possibly say to us it should just be apologies for centuries of the on-going persecution and oppression (including torture and murder) it has perpetrated against gays. I surely don’t ask or expect Charles to be convinced by my argument about the nature of revelation, and its relationship to inherent human fallibility. I merely implore him to begin showing a bit of collegial respect and charity toward gay Christians, whose lifestyle he may not personally approve, but who surely do not deserve to be treated with the abusive and contemptuous (and erroneous) rhetoric which he constantly flings at us.

He is irrelevant. Ignore him. Yes, I’m breaking silence and returning to the fray. It’s hard not to do so, when the sting of ongoing insult and contempt that I feel coming from Charles — and from virtually nobody else in the broad-spectrum Episcopal community sharing our "big tent" news group — appears to be unrelieved by anything that anybody can say to him.

Glad you’re back. m – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

btw: One can fight for gay equality and still be a conservative. Surprise!

Indeed, and thank you for presenting a "voice of reason" here! I don’t know if Charles has ever really "heard" where I’m coming from, as a matter of belief and attitude. For the record: a). I happen to be a liturgical "conservative", finding the traditional Anglican liturgy (and the traditional RC liturgy, for that matter) to be one of the most graceful expressions of Divine Presence on the planet. b). As to Charles’ allegation (elsewhere) that "AMiA is thriving", I absolutely WELCOME this development, if it’s true! It gives the deep traditionalists an opportunity to worship according to conscience, and in a congenial and collegial parish environment. My only stipulation is that AMiA not attempt to "hijack" ECUSA, in the way that "Opus Dei" is attempting to hijack parish-level Roman Catholicism, and forcibly re-tool the basically tolerant and generous pastoral instincts of most parish-level Catholics (and local priests) into a version of the viciousness and the mean-spiritedness of Ratzinger and his ilk. c). My basic issue with Charles is not at all his theological conservatism, but his persistent and insulting rudeness toward gay Christians. Among all the participants in this community, he is the only one who consistently uses the term "sodomite" to refer disparagingly to gay Christians — even though competent Biblical scholarship (repeatedly referenced by Terry) has verified that the issue at hand in Sodom was the social disrespect of visitors, and not any demonstrable attempt to commit sexual rape against them. d). Finally, I think Charles and I have a very different understanding of the nature of "Scriptural revelation". I would maintain that everything in Scripture has been filtered through human minds, human brains, human prejudice, human culture, human fallibility, and human ignorance. It is entirely possible to accept that the grace and the charism and the inspiration of Scripture are indeed the work of the Holy Spirit — but that the "receivers" of this inspiration were very much "creatures of their culture", and that we need to make allowances for the vast differences between their lives and ours. Why is it that ONLY "sexual matters" are regarded by contemporary conservatives as hard-core "moral issues" in Leviticus, while almost everything else (regarding clothing, the ritual "uncleanness" of women during their moon, and the dietary laws) may be rather easily dismissed, even by them, as "purely cultural"? Are we forgetting that the Patriarchs were polygamous, and that we are not? Clearly, sexual custom is as culturally relative as any of the Biblical dietary and clothing codes. I would argue that what is important in a sexual relationship is not the gender of the partner, but the quality of commitment, faithfulness, generosity, and undying support in the spiritual path shared by the partners. I surely don’t ask or expect Charles to be convinced by my argument about the nature of revelation, and its relationship to inherent human fallibility. I merely implore him to begin showing a bit of collegial respect and charity toward gay Christians, whose lifestyle he may not personally approve, but who surely do not deserve to be treated with the abusive and contemptuous (and erroneous) rhetoric which he constantly flings at us. Yes, I’m breaking silence and returning to the fray. It’s hard not to do so, when the sting of ongoing insult and contempt that I feel coming from Charles — and from virtually nobody else in the broad-spectrum Episcopal community sharing our "big tent" news group — appears to be unrelieved by anything that anybody can say to him.

Response:

I am gay. I am also conservative.

I doubt that you will find many people–apart, perhaps, from the Log Cabin Republicans–who find the two statements compatible. Both liberals and conservatives have a hard time understanding how you can be both gay and conservative at the same time. Charles Hohenstein Boycott French products! http://www.FranceStinks.com/ http://www.pavefrance.com/blog/

Response:

I am gay. I am also conservative. I doubt that you will find many people–apart, perhaps, from the Log Cabin Republicans–who find the two statements compatible. Both liberals and conservatives have a hard time understanding how you can be both gay and conservative at the same time.

There are two ways to look at that. If one uses "gay" to mean someone whose identity involves social and political activism to improve the status of non-het people politically, I’ll agree, most gays are liberal, because it is the liberal and radical political and social groups which support equality for openly gay people. The usage is a bit dated now; most such people now call themselves "queer" and see themselves as allies with heterosexual members of sexual minority groups. But there are many homosexual conservatives. Being homosexual is not something one can change about oneself, any more than being heterosexual. One can fake it by marriage to an opposite-sex partner, or live celibate, or hide by engaging in furtive sexual interactions, but one cannot stop being homosexual. The conservative homosexuals I’ve read about and known generally see their orientation as irrelevant to their politics, which is based on social and philosophical views outside the area of sexuality. One such person I’ve studied in some detail was Ernst Roehm, who came out in his early ‘thirties, as an adult. Apparently, people who come out later in life grow up as accepted members of their society, and when they recognize their orientation, they see it as simply a new facet of their identity: they haven’t changed in their core personality, so why should the world see them as totally different now? It would be interesting to research when in their lives conservative homosexuals came out to themselves: early or late in life. Rat

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am gay. I am also conservative. I doubt that you will find many people–apart, perhaps, from the Log Cabin Republicans–who find the two statements compatible. Both liberals and conservatives have a hard time understanding how you can be both gay and conservative at the same time. There are two ways to look at that. If one uses "gay" to mean someone whose identity involves social and political activism to improve the status of non-het people politically, I’ll agree, most gays are liberal, because it is the liberal and radical political and social groups which support equality for openly gay people. The usage is a bit dated now; most such people now call themselves "queer" and see themselves as allies with heterosexual members of sexual minority groups. But there are many homosexual conservatives. Being homosexual is not something one can change about oneself, any more than being heterosexual. One can fake it by marriage to an opposite-sex partner, or live celibate, or hide by engaging in furtive sexual interactions, but one cannot stop being homosexual. The conservative homosexuals I’ve read about and known generally see their orientation as irrelevant to their politics, which is based on social and philosophical views outside the area of sexuality. One such person I’ve studied in some detail was Ernst Roehm, who came out in his early ‘thirties, as an adult. Apparently, people who come out later in life grow up as accepted members of their society, and when they recognize their orientation, they see it as simply a new facet of their identity: they haven’t changed in their core personality, so why should the world see them as totally different now? It would be interesting to research when in their lives conservative homosexuals came out to themselves: early or late in life. Rat

I don’t think it matters when one comes out. Political philosophy can change over a lifetime and is a matter of personal choice. I know both young and old gay conservatives. btw: Your choice of Ernst Roehm as an example of a gay "conservative" is ridiculous. If this is the same guy I’m thinking of (ie, Nazi S.A. leader) he wasn’t a conservative at all – more like a radical rightist. m btw: One can fight for gay equality and still be a conservative. Surprise!

Response:

Get used to it! Gays and liberals brought this controversy upon the Church, so you will just have to get used to life in the hole you have dug. Apparently the election of the new gay bishop in New Hampshire has provoked a lot of latent hatred on the part of conservatives and straights, operating in some ominous resonance, against so-called liberals and gay people.

Ominous resonance? I.e., the great orthodox conspiracy? I only wish we were so well organized. But we do represent the greater part of the Anglican communion, so don’t be surprised by the excommunications which are only now just beginning. As for the allegation that orthodox Christians are motivated by hate, I won’t dignify that with an answer. I’m about to drop out of both communities temporarily, until things chill out considerably.

That will be a while. But, you have already posted again, so the point is already moot. As a non-heterosexual Christian, I believed I had found a welcoming home in a progressive, thoughtful, yet (in many ways) stately and traditional denomination — but I now hear a Bishop in Nigeria comparing gay people to "The Yorkshire Strangler", and so-called Christians saying vile, hateful and abusive things about New Hampshire’s gay bishop-elect.

It’s called the world Anglican communion. It rejects the sin of homosexual sex. Deal with it. This vituperation upsets me tremendously. I thought we were much more tolerant than the Vatican; but our own intramural "liberal versus conservative" theological food fights aren’t restoring my emotional centeredness. There seems to be no refuge from the ongoing hatred.

You thought that orthodox Christians were going to just give in? You put us on this path. Now sit back and enjoy the ride. Please, everybody, put a little love in your life…and respect and celebrate and rejoice in the love in OTHER people’s lives. That’s all I ask of you, for the moment.

No one is rejecting love, unless by "love" one means sodomy, adultery and fornication. However, to close on a late-breaking happy note: Toronto declares gay marriage legal

More evidence of the decline of morals in our society–as if more evidence were needed. Fortunately, the Church takes her cues from divine revelation, and not from the world. Charles Hohenstein Boycott French products! http://www.FranceStinks.com/ http://www.pavefrance.com/blog/

Response:

I agree that things could be calmer. However, vigorous debate is a sign of health, not sickness. As to your charge that the "hate" is entirely directed at liberals by conservatives. I suggest you reat Jesse’s 6/9 post under the "What is theological Liberalism" thread. Hatred and vituperation can be found on BOTH sides. Liberals are not angels. I’m about to drop out of both communities temporarily, until things chill out considerably. As a non-heterosexual Christian, I believed I had found a welcoming home in a progressive, thoughtful, yet (in many ways) stately and traditional denomination — but I now hear a Bishop in Nigeria comparing gay people to "The Yorkshire Strangler", and so-called Christians saying vile, hateful and abusive things about New Hampshire’s gay bishop-elect.

I am gay. I am also conservative. I take offense at your assumption that gays must be liberal or "progressive." We must break out of these categories before we can be truly equal. I look forward to your return to this ng. With Good Feelings Toward You, m .

Response:

It seems that both of my favorite (my very favorite) discussion communities — this one and the Rufus Wainwright Message Board — have degenerated during the past week or two into some very raucous, emotionally inflamed, left-versus-right, gay-versus-straight, conservative-versus-liberal screaming fits. Apparently the election of the new gay bishop in New Hampshire has provoked a lot of latent hatred on the part of conservatives and straights, operating in some ominous resonance, against so-called liberals and gay people. I’m about to drop out of both communities temporarily, until things chill out considerably. As a non-heterosexual Christian, I believed I had found a welcoming home in a progressive, thoughtful, yet (in many ways) stately and traditional denomination — but I now hear a Bishop in Nigeria comparing gay people to "The Yorkshire Strangler", and so-called Christians saying vile, hateful and abusive things about New Hampshire’s gay bishop-elect. This vituperation upsets me tremendously. I thought we were much more tolerant than the Vatican; but our own intramural "liberal versus conservative" theological food fights aren’t restoring my emotional centeredness. There seems to be no refuge from the ongoing hatred. Please, everybody, put a little love in your life…and respect and celebrate and rejoice in the love in OTHER people’s lives. That’s all I ask of you, for the moment. However, to close on a late-breaking happy note: Toronto declares gay marriage legal Ann Rostow, Gay.com / PlanetOut.com Network Tuesday, June 10, 2003 / 05:10 PM Same-sex marriage is legal in the Canadian province of Ontario as of Tuesday, when the Ontario Court of Appeals upheld an earlier ruling that established the right to marry for gay and lesbian couples and ordered same-sex marriage legalized in the province immediately. The city of Toronto, the largest city in Canada, authorized its clerk to begin issuing gay and lesbian marriage licenses at once. Several couples were issued licenses Tuesday, and at least one couple was wed. The federal government has 30 days in which to appeal the ruling to the Canadian Supreme Court. Last month, the leaders of the governing Liberal party and top politicians from three of the four opposition parties went public with their support of same-sex marriage, urging the federal government to resist further appeals. Courts in Quebec and British Columbia have also struck down laws prohibiting same-sex marriage, but those rulings were suspended until mid-2004 pending Parliamentary action. Likewise, the Ontario Divisional Court had ruled in favor of eight same-sex couples last July, giving the government a two-year window to remedy the constitutional violation. When the government appealed to Ontario’s highest court, the plaintiffs cross-appealed, asking the Court both to uphold the earlier decision, and to make it effective without delay. In view of the three previous opinions, the Canadian Parliament had already convened a committee to conduct public hearings and evaluate the legal status of same-sex couples. A draft report, issued in late May, recommended ending the prohibition on same-sex marriage. In a straightforward opinion, the Court of Appeals unanimously dismissed the idea that procreation and rearing children mandate the exclusion of gay and lesbian couples from the institution of marriage. "The [Attorney General of Canada] has not shown that the opposite-sex requirement in marriage is rationally related to the encouragement of procreation and child rearing," wrote the Court. "The law is both overinclusive and underinclusive. The ability to ‘naturally’ procreate and the willingness to raise children are not prerequisites of marriage for opposite-sex couples. … Simultaneously, the law is underinclusive because it excludes same-sex couples that have and raise children." The reasoning is significant, because stressing the link between marriage and procreation is the main legal argument used to defend discrimination in marriage laws in the United States, as in Canada. Within a few weeks, the high court of Massachusetts will issue a marriage ruling of its own, which could legalize same-sex marriages in the Bay State. The Massachusetts case is a matter of state law, and may not be appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Response:

Is it OK to torture terrorists?

admin — Tue, 11 Mar 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

a previous post: what do you think? Is it OK to torture terrorists?

my reply: I belive yes, it is OK. He has information that we need to save lives.

Spartakus: So, in your world, an embryo or a fetus is the same as a born human being, and therefore should be protected, but on the other hand, a human being forfeits this protection because he may have useful information rattling around in his cranium.

To begin with, I’m not talking about killing them but I am talking about doing what it takes to get information to break up terrorist attacks even if it means physical violence and truth serum (spelling?). They forfeited their freedom by trying to commit mass murder. I’m more in favor of protecting the people they are trying to murder than to protect the terrorists rights to live comfortably without telling us what we need to know to protect people that they are trying to murder. In abortion, a baby is killed and they haven’t committed the crimes that the terrorists have. When you care more about the terrorists rights than the babies’ right not to be killed then your priorities are wrong in my opinion. About abortion, see the baby in the womb and you can see that is a living human being. The 8th week is still in the first trimester and you can see their human features. It’s NOT just a clump of cells. It’s an atrocity to kill those babies. I work to peacefully to save those babies and I believe that doing it peacefully is important. -Sam

Response:

How convenient. Well, shall we simply declare YOU to be a "terrorist" and trying to commit "mass murder" and use that to torture you and put you in prison for life? And before you start bleating about how you haven’t been proven to be a terrorist remember that neither have they. It is appalling how those who crow loudest about their morals so readily demonstrate that they really have none at all. — Ray Fischer

Response:

what do you think? Is it OK to torture terrorists? I belive yes, it is OK. He has information that we need to save lives. So, in your world, an embryo or a fetus is the same as a born human being, and therefore should be protected, but on the other hand, a human being forfeits this protection because he may have useful information rattling around in his cranium. To begin with, I’m not talking about killing them but I am talking about doing what it takes to get information to break up terrorist attacks even if it means physical violence and truth serum (spelling?). They forfeited their freedom by trying to commit mass murder.

Which brings us full circle: there is a very good reason for not torturing people *accused*, but not convicted, of terrorism. And that is, you may not have the right man. According to a Taliban "source", Khalid Sheikh Mohammed "is still with us and in our protection and we challenge the United States to prove their claim." http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layou… Have you noticed how this story has dropped off the event horizon? Is it possible that they do indeed have the wrong man? Then, as Malapert pointed out, torture is *ineffective*; it is completely unreliable as a means of extracting useful information from an interrogatee. [--Sam's ranting about how the ends justify the means AND what a peaceful, non-violent guy he is--] You embrace a means of interrogation that is not only inhuman and immoral, but ineffective as well. Thanks for letting us know what a monster you really are.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – what do you think? Is it OK to torture terrorists? I belive yes, it is OK. He has information that we need to save lives. So, in your world, an embryo or a fetus is the same as a born human being, and therefore should be protected, but on the other hand, a human being forfeits this protection because he may have useful information rattling around in his cranium. To begin with, I’m not talking about killing them but I am talking about doing what it takes to get information to break up terrorist attacks even if it means physical violence and truth serum (spelling?). They forfeited their freedom by trying to commit mass murder. Which brings us full circle: there is a very good reason for not torturing people *accused*, but not convicted, of terrorism. And that is, you may not have the right man. According to a Taliban "source", Khalid Sheikh Mohammed "is still with us and in our protection and we challenge the United States to prove their claim." http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layou… Have you noticed how this story has dropped off the event horizon? Is it possible that they do indeed have the wrong man?

So, are we to believe the Taliban? Is that what you are saying or am I misunderstanding you? Then, as Malapert pointed out, torture is *ineffective*; it is completely unreliable as a means of extracting useful information from an interrogatee. [--Sam's ranting about how the ends justify the means AND what a peaceful, non-violent guy he is--] You embrace a means of interrogation that is not only inhuman and immoral, but ineffective as well.

How do you know it’s ineffective? Anyways, I’m more for using drugs like truth serum (spelling?). That would probably be the most effective. Thanks for letting us know what a monster you really are.

Here comes Sparakus with his immaturity again. Grow up. You don’t know how to have a civilized conversation.

Response:

If abortion is not wrong, nothing is wrong. NOTHING.-Jitney

Response:

If abortion is not wrong, nothing is wrong. NOTHING.-Jitney

More words of wisdom from the Right.

Response:

Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa, alt.politics.bush, talk.abortion, alt.abortion, alt.activism If abortion is not wrong, nothing is wrong. NOTHING

Why? I’m aware of lots of thing that are wrong – abortion and birth aren’t in that set.

Response:

Blowing up BIG BEN tommorow!!

admin — Thu, 12 Dec 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I ran backtraces with Sam Spade and forwarded everything to the US FBI… along with the observation that it was probably from "some twelve year old trying to be funny". Well, what exactly is illegal about communicating our INTENT to DESTROY PROPERTY? Would you please like to site the law that makes this illegal? Are you really in Venezuela? Before the correct law can be provided for you, we will need to be sure which country you are in. I am telling you there is no intent to threaten or scare anyone. I may have the intent to destroy this or that property, or kill this or that person. I may have the intent to wash my hair, or mow the lawn, or drive my car. I can change my intent at will and at any time. I am just communicating our mutual intent to destroy property. Me and my terrorist friends can change our intents at any time, and you have no authority over our minds or over our communications. In most countries, making terrorist threats is illegal. If the government required that you actually commit the terrorist act before arresting you, how could they prevent any terrorist acts? Also, you’ve mentioned that you have ‘terrorist friends’ whom you claim you discuss your intent with and they with you. This is clearly conspiracy to commit terrorist acts.

Illegal or not, making such a threat profoundly illustrates the deep seated stupidity of the perpetrator as well as demonstrating his or her’s extremely low IQ; coupled with diminished self esteem To be pitied, deeply pitied – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — "You bastards, why are you torturing me like this? Why!?" Sam Raimi’s "The Evil Dead"

Response:

Yes that’s right, this is a notice that tommorow we intend to blow up Big Ben the clocktower in Britain. This is not a threat, merely a communication of intent to destroy the property of Big Ben. Coming to you live from an international underground terrorist group not affiliated with Allah, Mohhamed, Al Qaeda or any of those groups. We’re just mainly pissed at how stupid the British system of government is. Have your cameras focused on Big Ben tommorow at 9:45 AM!!!! IT’S GOING TO BLOW!

Thanks for the favor.

Response:

Could you possibly post something that is intelligible? Who are the "we" you use in the royal sense?

No big mystery there, it’s clear in the context. But for your benefit I shall spell it out. ‘We’ are those who oppose war in Iraq. Who are you accusing of lying about democracy where?

Democracy is a lie! Voting is an abdication of responsibility. Honestly, your posts seem like those of a child who has played way to much Dungeons and Dragons.

Honestly Dungeon Master. I am sooooo sorry! How or why would anyone go to war in your name since your name is unknown and any reason to think that knowing your name would be even more obscure reasoning for going to war.

You call that ‘reasoning’?? Are you smoking crack or are you twelve years old?

Sticks and stones..

Response:

Could you possibly post something that is intelligible? Who are the "we" you use in the royal sense? No big mystery there, it’s clear in the context. But for your benefit I shall spell it out. ‘We’ are those who oppose war in Iraq.

By what mandate do you represent anyone other than yourself? Who are you accusing of lying about democracy where? Democracy is a lie! Voting is an abdication of responsibility.

Your theory of representative democracy needs a lot of work. Honestly, your posts seem like those of a child who has played way to much Dungeons and Dragons. Honestly Dungeon Master. I am sooooo sorry!

When you post like a child and use the term "Dougeon Master", you appear just that much more a child. How or why would anyone go to war in your name since your name is unknown and any reason to think that knowing your name would be even more obscure reasoning for going to war. You call that ‘reasoning’??

You are the one who posted "do not go to war in my name" as though your name is supposed to mean anything to anyone. Pure nonsense on your part. Are you smoking crack or are you twelve years old? Sticks and stones..

Say somthing intelligent and your credibility might not be in such great question. RN

Response:

I couldn’t give a flying fuck if you blow up big ben, as long as you make absolutely sure that no-one is killed or injured. This is obviously a very difficult precondition but if you could destroy high profile property to highlight some of the prevalent injustices in the west’s way then it might be a valuable exercise. Most people who hate violence also detest injustice and do not accept being complicit. Unless we can show (without hurting people) that we will not be ignored then this lie of democracy will ensnare those who have no real experience of what it actually means (as opposed to what it pretends). Don’t go to war in my name! I disagree!

Response:

Unless we can show (without hurting people) that we will not be ignored then this lie of democracy will ensnare those who have no real experience of what it actually means (as opposed to what it pretends). Don’t go to war in my name! I disagree!

Could you possibly post something that is intelligible? Who are the "we" you use in the royal sense? Who are you accusing of lying about democracy where? Honestly, your posts seem like those of a child who has played way to much Dungeons and Dragons. How or why would anyone go to war in your name since your name is unknown and any reason to think that knowing your name would be even more obscure reasoning for going to war. Are you smoking crack or are you twelve years old? RN

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes that’s right, this is a notice that tommorow we intend to blow up Big Ben the clocktower in Britain. Silly boy. As everyone knows, Big Ben is not the name of the clock tower. It’s the name of the bell inside it.. To prevent such terrorist outrages the bell has been safely removed to a secret address in Chesterfield. What you can hear is a digital recording. Bob

ROFL, now that is pure f*cken comedy at its best, couldnt stop laughing . Those who feel the need to foward this to the appropriate authorities, I encourage it. Although I can not be 100 percent sure, this sounds more like a kid than some lunatic that has just snapped. His contradictions alone will defeat himself, it would probably be very entertaining to see him try to pull something and get his ass into more sh*t than he can handle. I dont understand society and these radical beliefs anymore, what happened to just plain old greed and commiting crimes for personal financial gain..?

Response:

is also urged to email the CIA directly at: http://www.cia.gov/cia/comment.htm RN – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If this reckless posting is supposed to impress anyone, I would like violated multiple federal laws and that given anyone cares to forward his posts to the authorities, he will be arrested regardless of his ignorance of the law or his skill in disguising his IP address and physical location to superficial investigations. The last thing you really want in your childhood is to force federal authorities to track you down and arrest you which is your current exposure. If anyone forwards this stupidity to any of the appropriate authorities, you will be handicapped for life in more ways than you can imagine sitting in your bedroom popping pimples. As it stands, Hotmail would be required by law to all information concerning any activities you have engaged in using that service and the federal authorities would use every resource available to locate and prosecute you…. I will give you a promise that if you post anything other than a response admitting that you are a misguided juvenile playing a perverted game, that I will personally contact the appropriate authorities internationally and bring you to justice. POST: "I was joking" or get ready to go to jail. RN Sorry Red, it looks like YOU’RE the one making the threat. Come and get me… if you’re at war with me that is. I don’t stand by your laws and I think you and your kind are 100% bogus and full of shit: The threat stands, we changed it to tomorrow. Same time.

Response:

is urged to Call the MI5 Phoneline: 020 7930 9000 Newsgroups: alt.politics.british, soc.culture.british, alt.activism, talk.politics.misc, talk.politics Yes that’s right, this is a notice that tommorow we intend to blow up Big Ben the clocktower in Britain. This is not a threat, merely a communication of intent to destroy the property of Big Ben. Coming to you live from an international underground terrorist group not affiliated with Allah, Mohhamed, Al Qaeda or any of those groups. We’re just mainly pissed at how stupid the British system of government is. Have your cameras focused on Big Ben tommorow at 9:45 AM!!!! IT’S GOING TO BLOW! Message 2 in thread Newsgroups: alt.politics.british, soc.culture.british, alt.activism, talk.politics.misc, talk.politics Well, what exactly is illegal about communicating our INTENT to DESTROY PROPERTY? Would you please like to site the law that makes this illegal? I am telling you there is no intent to threaten or scare anyone. I may have the intent to destroy this or that property, or kill this or that person. I may have the intent to wash my hair, or mow the lawn, or drive my car. I can change my intent at will and at any time. I am just communicating our mutual intent to destroy property. Me and my terrorist friends can change our intents at any time, and you have no authority over our minds or over our communications. Certainly we have a God Given freedom to communicate whatever we wantBig Ben is a public property, and already a target, so there shouldn’t be any changes made in regard to this message. There is no direct communication to Big Ben here. And no specific PRIVATE-person or property is being targeted. (If it there was, would it be illegal, or would the person only have recourse to sue? Please answer.) If I said this was "fiction" would that make you change you mind and make you think these posts were all of a sudden legal? That I was "backing off?" I’m not saying this is fiction. I and my terrorist buddies are making a real and credible terrorist threat right here and now to blow up Big Ben tomorrow. It’s coming down. Another thing to consider: if I said I had someone here tied up and I was killing them, would that be illegal? That’s not a threat. Don’t tell me about some silly British laws that don’t mean anything. I’m from the USA, (though I’m not saying if I’m there right now), so those are the only laws which matter to me. One last thing for you to consider, is it okay if I say I’m going to go kill Saddam? Yes, I think it is. It proves you are all worse then the lowest of all lying hypocrites. So once again: this is a notice of intent to destroy the clock tower Big Ben at 9:45 AM tomorrow morning. This is not a threat, merely a communication of intent to destroy property. If it hasn’t blown up by 10:00 AM you’ll know all is well. But I recommend you point your cameras at it from 9:45 onward. It’s going to be a spectacular display. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If this reckless posting is supposed to impress anyone, I would like violated multiple federal laws and that given anyone cares to forward his posts to the authorities, he will be arrested regardless of his ignorance of the law or his skill in disguising his IP address and physical location to superficial investigations. The last thing you really want in your childhood is to force federal authorities to track you down and arrest you which is your current exposure. If anyone forwards this stupidity to any of the appropriate authorities, you will be handicapped for life in more ways than you can imagine sitting in your bedroom popping pimples. As it stands, Hotmail would be required by law to all information concerning any activities you have engaged in using that service and the federal authorities would use every resource available to locate and prosecute you…. I will give you a promise that if you post anything other than a response admitting that you are a misguided juvenile playing a perverted game, that I will personally contact the appropriate authorities internationally and bring you to justice. POST: "I was joking" or get ready to go to jail. RN Sorry Red, it looks like YOU’RE the one making the threat. Come and get me… if you’re at war with me that is. I don’t stand by your laws and I think you and your kind are 100% bogus and full of shit: The threat stands, we changed it to tomorrow. Same time.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If this reckless posting is supposed to impress anyone, I would like violated multiple federal laws and that given anyone cares to forward his posts to the authorities, he will be arrested regardless of his ignorance of the law or his skill in disguising his IP address and physical location to superficial investigations. The last thing you really want in your childhood is to force federal authorities to track you down and arrest you which is your current exposure. If anyone forwards this stupidity to any of the appropriate authorities, you will be handicapped for life in more ways than you can imagine sitting in your bedroom popping pimples. As it stands, Hotmail would be required by law to all information concerning any activities you have engaged in using that service and the federal authorities would use every resource available to locate and prosecute you