Question:
Army Admits It Staged Toppling of Saddam Statue
This is a surprise to you? Did you -really think that US Army tank retriever came out of some Iraqi’s garage? —
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Army Admits It Staged Toppling of Saddam Statue This is a surprise to you? Did you -really think that US Army tank retriever came out of some Iraqi’s garage? —
Uh….no, Burnt, as the title, "We Told you So: Army Admits It Staged Toppling of Saddam Statue" should imply to anyone with basic reading skills, it comes as no surprise. If you’re still confused, though, Google "Saddam statue", and read what we said at the time, and what you freepers had to say in rebuttal.
Response:
read what we said at the time, and what you freepers had to say in rebuttal
Who is "we", and what’s a "freeper"? —
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Army Admits It Staged Toppling of Saddam Statue This is a surprise to you? Did you -really think that US Army tank retriever came out of some Iraqi’s garage?
Why not …? The WMD’s Saddam had in the late 80’s, and the systems to manufacture, target and deliver them were supplied and facilitated by the U$$A … PS: How’s Buster? — "The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him." ~ George Bush Jr. 2001-09-13 "I don’t know where he (bin Laden) is. I have no idea and I really don’t care. It’s not that important. It’s not our priority." ~ George Bush Jr. 2002-03-13 "I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Not was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes." ~George W. Bush on how he dodged the Vietnam draft—1994
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Army Admits It Staged Toppling of Saddam Statue A newly declassified Army study of the Iraq invasion confirms that the U.S. military stage-managed the fall of Saddam Hussein’s statue in Baghdad. According to the Army’s own report, a Marine colonel decided to topple the statue and an Army psyops worked to make the toppling of the statue appear to be a spontaneous undertaking by Iraqi civilians. This according to the Los Angeles Times. The psyops team used loudspeakers to encourage Iraqis to gather in Firdos Square and a Marine recovery vehicle was used to topple the statue with a chain. U.S. Censors Portions Of Saddam Hussein Hearing The US military censored major portions of Saddam Hussein’s hearing last week. The military ordered camera crews not to record the audio of the proceedings. They ordered stations not to broadcast images of Saddam being led into the courtroom in handcuffs. And the military edited out portions of the proceedings when it released the audio to news outlets. According to Robert Fisk of the London Independent, the US cut out Saddam saying "this is theatre–Bush is the real criminal." Unedited audio of most of the proceedings made it out only because news crews pretended not to be recording under US orders. One U.S. television crew member said of the U.S. military officials "They were running the show. The Americans decided what the world could and could not see of this trial–and it was meant to be an Iraqi trial." Headlines from http://www.DemocracyNow.org = = = = STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT’S GOING ON? = = = = Daily online radio show, news reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org = = = = Sorry, we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace) And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general) ** ANTI-SPAM EMAIL NOTE: For email "info" and "map" don’t work. Email to ** m-a-i-l-m-a-i-l (without the dashes) at economicdemocracy.org instead
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Question:
Abuser priests go to Mexico for sanctuary Jo Tuckman in Mexico City meets a US cleric convicted of child abuse who found sympathy south of the border Father Lucas Galv
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Does anyone find this surprising ? What I find surprising is your continued ignorance and deliberate obfuscation in the face of facts. The Soviet Union, that marvel of progressive politics, fucked up the environment. The Soviet Union is not known now, nor has it ever been known for progressive politics.
You want to try that on any leftist politician before, say, 1985 ? You want me to go get the quotes ? You want to talk about CND ? European Communist Parties ? The American Communist Party ? The Soviet Union has been known for totalitarianism, however. Do you understand the difference/ Yup, oddly I do. So let’s protect the environment by having more progressive politics…… I see you still don’t "get" it.
I have to admit that I haven’t ‘ got ‘ a point you’ve tried to make yet. The problems facing Russia are the same as ours. Additionally, pollution and environmental destruction don’t recognize and respect political borders. The fact that you are more interested in causing problems rather than solving them demonstrates that you share more in common with the Soviet dictators of the past than you do with those who are interesteed in progress.
I want progress…..I just disagree with you about what progress constitutes. Dictators tend to say that anyone who disagrees with them gets shot. All I’ve said about you is that you should get an education. No, that does not make me a dictator…unkind perhaps, but not a dictator. Until corporations and industrial polluters stop polluting, society will require as many regulations as possible. I suggest that these regulations be enforced internationally, so that multinationals can’t go from country to country, polluting environments that don’t have adequate protection.
We already haev international treaties on these things. You’ll find that multinationals tend to have better pollution controls than domestic companies in poor countries. Once the entire planet is protected, industrial polluters will either have to change their ways or stop production.
So when my compnay stops production where are you going to get your fuel cells from ? And that’s how it’s going to be, so get used to it.
Now that is the statement of a dictator. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – - Chive Science progresses, one funeral at a time.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sunday, September 2, 2001 Pollution tarnishes Russia’s jewel, Lake Baikal Citizens begin campaign to change mind-set that thinks short-term only Robert G. Kaiser Washington Post Baikalsk, Russia — Of all Siberia’s treasures, the greatest must be Lake Baikal, a wonder of nature. Baikal takes the breath away. Even statistics about Baikal take the breath away. But Baikal is in grave danger, threatened by human stupidity and inertia. This is no ordinary lake but, rather, a geologically unique crevice or rift in the Earth’s crust formed at least 20 million years ago, probably by colliding giant land masses. The deepest spot yet measured in the lake is 5, 715 feet below its surface, and there may be deeper ones. It’s 380 miles long and as much as 48 miles across. Baikal holds more water than all five American Great Lakes; it holds one-fifth of Earth’s supply of fresh water. And the lake is still growing: The crevice widens slightly every year, and the water level rises about a millimeter. Much of it is surrounded by cliffs that become steep mountains, a dramatic sight. More than 300 streams and rivers feed the lake, but only one leaves it, the mighty Angara River. Baikal is home to 1,500 species, two-thirds of them unique, most lovably the Baikal seal or nerpa (which hunters now poach because it brings a handsome price from Chinese fur traders). The lake is blessed with unique forms of epischura, tiny crustaceans that purify the lake’s water remarkably. A bright object can be seen clearly through 600 feet of water. But Baikal’s cleanliness has been compromised by four decades of pollution from enterprises built near the lake or on its banks — most significantly the Baikalsk Cellulose Combinat, on the lake’s southern end, and a similar plant nearby on a principal tributary, the Selenge River. This factory uses a chlorine treatment to turn wood pulp into cellulose, the raw material used to make paper, cardboard and other products. Its construction was authorized in 1966, over the objections of some of the Soviet Union’s leading scientists. Pyotr Kapitsa, who later won the Nobel Prize, said then that introducing chemical waste from cellulose production into this unique ecosystem "can utterly destroy the favorable balance of nature and totally ruin the lake’s purity." CLARITY IS DECEPTIVE Kapitsa was right, and the lake has never been the same. It remains clear as glass, but appearances can be deceiving. Scientists have traced two giant plumes of invisible chemical pollution that start at the cellulose plant here, and at the point where the Selenge enters the lake. These plumes overwhelm the lake’s natural defenses, said Gary Cook of Baikal Watch, an environmental group based in San Francisco. In the southern part of the lake where these plumes have formed, the omul, Baikal’s most prolific fish, has declined substantially in number. Now the government is trying to save the omul by restricting fishing, but ordinary citizens around the lake angrily defy the rules. Georgi Nurullin, a schoolteacher who lives on the lake’s eastern shore, said the natives "have to fish — it’s their life, they have to have it." These people and their ancestors have been living on omul for millennia. Interviews in Buryatiya, on the east side of the lake, and Irkutsk on the west, suggest the pollution of Baikal raises enormous questions no one seems equipped to answer. In today’s Russia, governments don’t have money to fund basic services, let alone innovative and disruptive schemes of the kind needed to assure Baikal’s future. And businesses see the world in the shortest of short terms: "No one thinks about tomorrow, or the day after," said one of Irkutsk’s most successful entrepreneurs, Stanislav Ogorodnikov, partner in an independent television station. Rules and laws theoretically protect Baikal, and a few significant steps have been taken. The Selenge River cellulose plant has created a "closed loop" system meant to prevent discharges of pollutants. Environmental activists here are dubious, since the harmful chemicals must be disposed of somehow, even in a closed-loop system. New studies of the Selenge’s cleanliness may give a clearer idea of the new system’s effectiveness. ‘LAWS DON’T WORK’ In 1998, the Duma in Moscow passed a law banning the burning of coal in power plants around the lake, to limit acid rain and air pollution. But "the laws don’t work," said geologist Vladimir Belgologov, who created the Buryat Regional Association for Baikal, a citizens environmental group in the Buryat Republic, whose territory includes most of Baikal’s shoreline. He’s right. In Ulan Ude, capital of the Russian republic, the local electric power plant plans to modernize and replace its coal-burning boilers — with new coal-burning boilers. The "Law on Baikal" is more a declaration of high-minded intent than a serious legal impediment to pollution. Belgologov’s sardonic assessment: "Relax, the worst is yet to come." But he isn’t giving up. His organization, active and determined, is emblematic of something new in Russia, where, until quite recently, citizens demonstrated their enthusiasm for causes only when instructed to do so, and in the manner prescribed. Now citizens groups have blossomed nationwide, the early shoots of what supporters hope can blossom into a real civil society. Belgologov said 300 such organizations are registered in the Buryat Republic. After 15 years in the trenches and, by his own account, very few successes, Belgologov is an experienced lobbyist who is invited to governmental meetings in Buryatiya. Nataha Travnikova, 20, enjoys no such status, but she, too, is a determined environmental activist. One recent Saturday, she was leading volunteers in picking up trash and scrap metal along Baikal’s shoreline. They were part of a monthlong campaign by Greenpeace Russia, which is hosting an international camp near here for volunteers who want to help Baikal. Travnikova is studying journalism at Irkutsk State University. Her brigade – - nine women and two men, all but one of college age — was working less than a mile from the giant Baikalsk Cellulose Combinat. Was it really worth the effort to pick up the cigarette packs and beer bottles, when Russians seem accustomed to dropping such items wherever they may be? "We’re making a little progress," Travnikova replied. "People have heard that we’re picking up the trash, and now a lot of them leave their trash in bags." But they still leave it. For the most part, she said, changing Russian habits "is hopeless." Roman Pukalov, the charismatic director of the Greenpeace campaign for Baikal for the last six years, agreed. He said such volunteer efforts along the shore were "useless — it will revert to the same condition it was in, in a week, or a month, or a year." RECYCLING But Pukalov hoped to recycle the 30 tons of trash his volunteers will pick up this summer, to demonstrate to local residents that "trash is money." And he planned to try to persuade local businesses to assume responsibility for part of the shoreline, something like American "adopt a highway" programs. The oldest public organization trying to protect the lake here is Baikal Wave. A key member is Jennie Sutton, an Englishwoman who moved to Irkutsk a quarter-century ago out of a love for Russia. The environmental movement here "is very small, very weak," she said. Its successes have been few, while economic realities and political inertia allow pollution of the lake to continue. Sutton has seen more and more construction on the banks of the lake, more human pollution going into it, and the hardening of local opinion that the region cannot do without the 3,000 jobs that the Cellulose Combinat provides. Hard times and the absence of public funds to protect the lake are chronic problems to which she sees no obvious solution.
Question:
"Kiven" <ki…@freeuk.com> wrote in message > > It’s been 8 years for me too. I’m 26. > Yeah me too. I’ve written words to that effect since I was in school. I used > to think that things would change though. They kind of did, but I don’t think I > was realising what the problem was back then.
Interesting–I too thought things would change. And like you, they did kind of change, and there were opportunities for me with MOTOS (that’s what we’re talking about, right?) but I didn’t realize that I was expected to read between the lines and decipher some language known as Womanese….along with other things. Oh, and I’m supposed to ‘be a man’ :-/ I’m 26 too, does this make us the > class of ‘93?
Actually, I’m Class of ‘92. Hey, how’d that happen?:) > > Yeah, I don’t write everyday either. I write most often when I’m > > down/depressed…whatever I happen to be thinking about…there’s no > > theoretical comtemplations or philosophicals ponderings or anything like > > that, really…just dumb shit. > That’s exactly what I write. I never read it though, unless I want to check > some fact or date, in which case I have to wade through pages of rubbish to find > it.
Yeah, I think reading past entries can be a mistake, especially if they’re dreary and twisted and full of melancholia…and most of mine are. And yes, there’s rubbish, lots o’ rubbish
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1womanscyberpersona <nowherewo…@nowhereland.com> wrote: : <step…@nomail.msu.edu> wrote in message
: news:9adl71$1op1$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu… :> a…@jkl.com <> wrote:
:> : On Sun, 01 Apr 2001 06:26:04 GMT, anon-29…@anon.twwells.com wrote: :> :> : Just :> : because I’m really a fat, wimpy, hate-filled piece of crap who doesn’t :> : know how to dress or talk to women doesn’t mean I view sex any :> : differently in terms of morality. Often times I like to think it is :> : immoral, simply to make myself feel better. Because I sure as hell :> : ain’t gettin’ any. I will temporarily delude myself into thinking I :> : am standing on a higher moral plane than those who actually get out :> : there and enjoy life, and this is likely just a defense mechanism to :> : prevent me from getting too depressed and killing myself :> :> Well said. I am always suspicious of any claims on this newsgroup :> about morality. There are rational and spiritual reasons to be :> opposed to casual sex. However I doubt the people behind these :> posts have such reasons. I could be wrong, but for the most part :> they just sound like bitter, grumpy people who try to make themselves :> feel better by putting down others. : But the fact that everyone can’t get it – may make it immoral in and of : itself mightn’t it? Um, well, I think I’d better go join the communist : party now … Not everyone can see either. Is it immoral to see? Not everyone can post to Usenet either. If morality is to be defined by the lowest common denominator of humanity, then precious little will be moral. Have fun on the commune. 
Stephen
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Please forgive the empty post Stephen wrote: > 1womanscyberpersona <nowherewo…@nowhereland.com> wrote: > : <step…@nomail.msu.edu> wrote in message > : news:9adl71$1op1$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu… > :> a…@jkl.com <> wrote: > :> : On Sun, 01 Apr 2001 06:26:04 GMT, anon-29…@anon.twwells.com wrote: > :> > :> : Just > :> : because I’m really a fat, wimpy, hate-filled
piece of crap who doesn’t > :> : know how to dress or talk to women doesn’t mean I view sex any > :> : differently in terms of morality. Often times
I like to think it is > :> : immoral, simply to make myself feel better.
Because I sure as hell > :> : ain’t gettin’ any. I will temporarily delude
myself into thinking I > :> : am standing on a higher moral plane than those
who actually get out > :> : there and enjoy life, and this is likely just a
defense mechanism to > :> : prevent me from getting too depressed and killing myself > :> > :> Well said. I am always suspicious of any claims on this newsgroup > :> about morality. There are rational and spiritual reasons to be > :> opposed to casual sex. However I doubt the people behind these > :> posts have such reasons. I could be wrong, but for the most part > :> they just sound like bitter, grumpy people who
try to make themselves > :> feel better by putting down others. > : But the fact that everyone can’t get it – may make
it immoral in and of > : itself mightn’t it? Um, well, I think I’d better
go join the communist > : party now … > Not everyone can see either. Is it immoral to see? Not everyone > can post to Usenet either. If morality is to be defined by the > lowest common denominator of humanity, then precious little will be > moral.
Am I jealous of people who are involved in loving relationships? Hell yes. Am I jealous of those who engage in one-night stands or who view sex as a game of conquest? No. Maybe my own feelings are distorting my intepretation, but I think that 1woman’s point is that it is _unfair_ – i.e., hurtful, and anything immoral is hurtful, though not always the other way around – that some people can get sex, love, whatever, while others can’t. Maybe her point is that the immorality is in some people’s not having opportunities for love, while others who do instead choose meaningless sex. In any event, whatever specific point she’s trying to make, I agree it with it. (I think we share similar views about morality). What’s the address of that commune? ===== Joe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail: h…@anon.twwells.com — for an automatically returned help message ad…@anon.twwells.com – for the service’s administrator ano…@anon.twwells.com — anonymous mail to the administrator
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step…@nomail.msu.edu wrote: > Not everyone can see either. Is it immoral to see? Not everyone > can post to Usenet either. If morality is to be defined by the > lowest common denominator of humanity, then precious little will be > moral.
I think it’s immoral to see if you (as a society, I’m no optometrist) don’t do anything to try and solve the problem. There are thousands of people in developing countries who can’t see for the want of a simple cataract operation or appropriate medication that would be standard procedure in the US. I think that’s immoral. There has been discussion about the ‘digital divide’, i.e. the problems that may already exist or will exist in the future because many people don’t have access to the internet. Personally I think there are more important priorities (I think solutions are a kind of ‘let them eat laptops’ type scenario) but it’s a valid opinion.
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ON HATING LOVE I’ve never written anything of the sort. *However* I decided in junior high I *hated* love songs. I hated them because I thought them stupid and later more so because they were not about my problems (heh what shybie has *relationship* problems in hs and jr high – lol). And there were so many love songs but so few songs about *my* problems – my distressing problems .. sigh Anyway, on with my non-love life…. I decided in high school that I would work on my personality and my character. Now make no mistake this was primarily because I wanted to and had nothing to do with anyone else or meeting anyone else or anything. But as an additional ancilliary benefit I hoped that this would attract a guy I could love to me someday. Maybe I knew nothing, maybe I hadn’t read enough asf back then (none of course 
to realize that guys only cared about looks … however I decided back then that that and a bit of intellegence was all I had going for me. Sorry, if a guy in hs (who I didn’t have a crush on or anything), but whom I later found out thought I was attractive back then had spoke the fuck up, maybe it would have been different … I mean I might have thought better about myself. I don’t know a bit later this had progressed to – I’m not ready for a relationship because I need to be *perfect* to deserve to be in a relationship. I even told this one unjesting, utterly sincere, to my therapist. My therapist could have slapped me upside the head for the sillyness of my thoughts. But I did honestly believe it …. And then later I was just not ready I said *and believed* because I had to work on myself first (my shyness/getting some friends (yea that’s been sucessful -( ) and all that. *Now*, I’m, oh um er …… in no-mans-land, in no-*MAN’S*-land – and aimless.
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1womanscyberpersona <nowherewo…@nowhereland.com> wrote: > later I was just not ready I said *and believed* because I had to work on > myself first (my shyness/getting some friends (yea that’s been sucessful > -( ) and all that. *Now*, I’m, oh um er …… in no-mans-land, in > no-*MAN’S*-land – and aimless.
er, so you mean I shouldn’t be thinking like that? Beckie
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<becki…@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:9afeo3$oq7$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au… > 1womanscyberpersona <nowherewo…@nowhereland.com> wrote: > > later I was just not ready I said *and believed* because I had to work on > > myself first (my shyness/getting some friends (yea that’s been sucessful > > -( ) and all that. *Now*, I’m, oh um er …… in no-mans-land, in > > no-*MAN’S*-land – and aimless. > er, so you mean I shouldn’t be thinking like that? > Beckie
Um, I don’t know. I don’t know. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
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<becki…@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:9aa0pd$s5f$3@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au… > Belenus <bele…@sympatico.ca> wrote: > > That’s why since I was 13 I was going to be single all my > > life. Yes 13, I have written proof, I regurlaly write my thoughts, > > and it’s scary to see that I was so right back then. I knew this was > > coming, > There’s a bit in High Fidelity by Nick Hornby where the main character > says something about how only a certain kind of person could believe > they’d be alone forever when they were 26, which didn’t really make me > feel any good since I was 18 and felt the same way
The movie right? I missed it unfortunately, thanks for pointing it out I’m going to rent it soon. > > why didn’t I kill myself then when I had the chance??? > > I guess that’s why I don’t wear a bicycle helmet and ride like crazy > > downtown. > > I hope that I have a major accident and die. > What about this girl you like? Don’t you want to see what happens there?
What if I told you I know exactly what is going to happen? I will try to change that though Positive thinking that’s the way I must think. I know I still have some chances. Alex
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Belenus <bele…@sympatico.ca> wrote: >> There’s a bit in High Fidelity by Nick Hornby where the main character >> says something about how only a certain kind of person could believe >> they’d be alone forever when they were 26, which didn’t really make me >> feel any good since I was 18 and felt the same way > The movie right? I missed it unfortunately, thanks for pointing it out I’m > going to rent it soon.
The book too, which is better, but see the movie first Actually, i should say I don’t still feel the same way, maybe I will be alone forever, but then again, maybe not >> What about this girl you like? Don’t you want to see what happens there? > What if I told you I know exactly what is going to happen? I will try to > change that though > Positive thinking that’s the way I must think. I know I still have some > chances.
Yes you do Good luck talking to her Beckie
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a…@jkl.com <> wrote:
: On Sun, 01 Apr 2001 06:26:04 GMT, anon-29…@anon.twwells.com wrote: :>Thank you, 1woman, for inspiring this post :> :>Today, I came to recognize one of my larger problems, :>as it relates to finding companionship of the opposite :>sex: courtship is dead and buried (at least with the :>younger, more sexually immoral generation), and I :>can’t accept it. : <snip> : I’m just going to respond to your comment about the younger : generation. I can fully understand this feeling, and your : frustration. I myself have never "gotten any" — though I plan to : visit a prostitute soon — and at times I have thought that the : majority of people my age are simply degenerates. Some are, but I : know I exaggerate it a good deal in my mind. However, I can’t say I : really see the phrase "sexually immoral" making any sense. <SNIP> : But is there anything intrinsically immoral in the act itself? Is it : wrong for two consenting individuals to have some fun? <SNIP> : Just : because I’m really a fat, wimpy, hate-filled piece of crap who doesn’t : know how to dress or talk to women doesn’t mean I view sex any : differently in terms of morality. Often times I like to think it is : immoral, simply to make myself feel better. Because I sure as hell : ain’t gettin’ any. I will temporarily delude myself into thinking I : am standing on a higher moral plane than those who actually get out : there and enjoy life, and this is likely just a defense mechanism to : prevent me from getting too depressed and killing myself Well said. I am always suspicious of any claims on this newsgroup about morality. There are rational and spiritual reasons to be opposed to casual sex. However I doubt the people behind these posts have such reasons. I could be wrong, but for the most part they just sound like bitter, grumpy people who try to make themselves feel better by putting down others. Stephen
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<step…@nomail.msu.edu> wrote in message > Well said. I am always suspicious of any claims on this newsgroup > about morality. There are rational and spiritual reasons to be > opposed to casual sex. However I doubt the people behind these > posts have such reasons. I could be wrong, but for the most part > they just sound like bitter, grumpy people who try to make themselves > feel better by putting down others. > Stephen
I agree completely, with both Stephen and asdf. It’s just another one of those rationalizations, and I have amassed a fairly long list of those myself. It’s total BS (in my case anyway) If was more secure, confident, and better looking, I would try my best to be a player . I have no moral or religious issues in regard to sex, but the topic does embarrass me a little, which it shouldn’t; sexuality is just part of being human, although it is incredibly frustrating from time to time:)
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<step…@nomail.msu.edu> wrote in message
news:9adl71$1op1$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> a…@jkl.com <> wrote: > : On Sun, 01 Apr 2001 06:26:04 GMT, anon-29…@anon.twwells.com wrote: > :>Thank you, 1woman, for inspiring this post > :> > :>Today, I came to recognize one of my larger problems, > :>as it relates to finding companionship of the opposite > :>sex: courtship is dead and buried (at least with the > :>younger, more sexually immoral generation), and I > :>can’t accept it. > : <snip> > : I’m just going to respond to your comment about the younger > : generation. I can fully understand this feeling, and your > : frustration. I myself have never "gotten any" — though I plan to > : visit a prostitute soon — and at times I have thought that the > : majority of people my age are simply degenerates. Some are, but I > : know I exaggerate it a good deal in my mind. However, I can’t say I > : really see the phrase "sexually immoral" making any sense. > <SNIP> > : But is there anything intrinsically immoral in the act itself? Is it > : wrong for two consenting individuals to have some fun? > <SNIP> > : Just > : because I’m really a fat, wimpy, hate-filled piece of crap who doesn’t > : know how to dress or talk to women doesn’t mean I view sex any > : differently in terms of morality. Often times I like to think it is > : immoral, simply to make myself feel better. Because I sure as hell > : ain’t gettin’ any. I will temporarily delude myself into thinking I > : am standing on a higher moral plane than those who actually get out > : there and enjoy life, and this is likely just a defense mechanism to > : prevent me from getting too depressed and killing myself > Well said. I am always suspicious of any claims on this newsgroup > about morality. There are rational and spiritual reasons to be > opposed to casual sex. However I doubt the people behind these > posts have such reasons. I could be wrong, but for the most part > they just sound like bitter, grumpy people who try to make themselves > feel better by putting down others.
But the fact that everyone can’t get it – may make it immoral in and of itself mightn’t it? Um, well, I think I’d better go join the communist party now …
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Belenus <bele…@sympatico.ca> wrote: > That’s why since I was 13 I was going to be single all my > life. Yes 13, I have written proof, I regurlaly write my thoughts, > and it’s scary to see that I was so right back then. I knew this was > coming,
There’s a bit in High Fidelity by Nick Hornby where the main character says something about how only a certain kind of person could believe they’d be alone forever when they were 26, which didn’t really make me feel any good since I was 18 and felt the same way > why didn’t I kill myself then when I had the chance??? > I guess that’s why I don’t wear a bicycle helmet and ride like crazy > downtown. > I hope that I have a major accident and die.
What about this girl you like? Don’t you want to see what happens there? Beckie
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I don’t think it’s an exclusively American notion that sex is immoral. In fact my first thought would be exactly the reverse. In most societies, sex outside marriage is consdiered harmful and dangerous, as it was in European/American society only a few decades ago. I had a conversation a while ago on ICQ with a muslim guy from Bosnia, and amongst other things he was saying how he thought Western society was depraved and sex-mad. He was saying that in muslim societies they just don’t have problems like that, if you can’t find a girlfriend you just go and see your local priest and he finds you a wife. Now usually I would just ignore opinions like that, thinking these poor people have been brainwashed by some extreme religion, and I certainly don’t have any time for the kind of fundamentalist stuff that goes on around the world, especially as half the time it’s basically just an abuse of human rights. But amongst my indignation at someone even attempting to convert e to islam, I thought, have they actually got a point? One thing I have certainly changed my views on recently is the way sex is so public now, especially in the media. I don’t just mean blatent pornography, because at least that’s honest about it’s purpose, I mean the way that you can’t get away from it now, it’s everywhere. A lot of what you see in everyday life now would be considered obscene not so long ago. When I was a few years younger I listened to the arguement that this was a bad thing with total incomprehension– if people want to see this kind of thing then why not? But now I think it’s actualy a very bad thing, and perhaps we were right before that it’s something best talked about in private only, if at all. So to answer to your question, I agree that extra-marital sex in itself isn’t an immoral thing. At first glance, the prevailing 1960s idea (that now women no-longer have to worry about getting pregnant all the time, why not just have free love with as many people as possible as often as possible) seems like a good idea. That is, until you realise that when it develops, what’s actually happens is that the most desirable people are able to do that (if they want to) and those that are less desirable (for whatever reason– being physically unattractive, shy, old, or any other reason) are going to have a miserable time and have to put up with it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -a…@jkl.com wrote: > On Sun, 01 Apr 2001 06:26:04 GMT, anon-29…@anon.twwells.com wrote: > >Thank you, 1woman, for inspiring this post > >Today, I came to recognize one of my larger problems, > >as it relates to finding companionship of the opposite > >sex: courtship is dead and buried (at least with the > >younger, more sexually immoral generation), and I > >can’t accept it. > <snip> > I’m just going to respond to your comment about the younger > generation. I can fully understand this feeling, and your > frustration. I myself have never "gotten any" — though I plan to > visit a prostitute soon — and at times I have thought that the > majority of people my age are simply degenerates. Some are, but I > know I exaggerate it a good deal in my mind. However, I can’t say I > really see the phrase "sexually immoral" making any sense. There are > many things one can do that might be considered immoral, but it seems > to be an exclusively American notion that sex is one of them — if > you’re not from the US, please ignore that comment; I’m just making an > assumption. Sure, I am extremely envious of those with the good > fortune to be able to have some sex with the beautiful young ladies I > see walking around every day, and the proliferation of sexual imagery > in every segment of the media is rather tiresome and annoying to me. > But is there anything intrinsically immoral in the act itself? Is it > wrong for two consenting individuals to have some fun? I mean… I’m > trying to imagine myself good looking, well-dressed, confident, etc. > In that situation, I imagine I’d be loving the college life and going > out every weekend, hitting the clubs and trying to get laid. I’m sure > my goal would be to get all the sex I could with as many different > girls as possible and I know I wouldn’t feel bad about it. Just > because I’m really a fat, wimpy, hate-filled piece of crap who doesn’t > know how to dress or talk to women doesn’t mean I view sex any > differently in terms of morality. Often times I like to think it is > immoral, simply to make myself feel better. Because I sure as hell > ain’t gettin’ any. I will temporarily delude myself into thinking I > am standing on a higher moral plane than those who actually get out > there and enjoy life, and this is likely just a defense mechanism to > prevent me from getting too depressed and killing myself — which I’m > sure I will get around to one of these days. Just thinking about it > logically though, I have to come to the conclusion that I am simply a > loser and no better than anyone else.
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> > How long this stands? For me it has been 8 years since this entry. I > also > > knew exactly how I would act with a girl I’m interested in. I thought I > > could change that… but not now. > It’s been 8 years for me too. I’m 26.
Yeah me too. I’ve written words to that effect since I was in school. I used to think that things would change though. They kind of did, but I don’t think I was realising what the problem was back then. I’m 26 too, does this make us the class of ‘93? > > I don’t write everyday but regurlarly. For me it’s something different, I > > used to write with subjectivity a lot, now I only write about my analysis, > > being REALLY objective. Reading old thoughts is funny though brings the > > monets back into my head, for analysis all over again… > Yeah, I don’t write everyday either. I write most often when I’m > down/depressed…whatever I happen to be thinking about…there’s no > theoretical comtemplations or philosophicals ponderings or anything like > that, really…just dumb shit.
That’s exactly what I write. I never read it though, unless I want to check some fact or date, in which case I have to wade through pages of rubbish to find it.
Response:
Great post Joe. I agree with pretty much everything you said, but I wonder if the good old days really were all that good? I too imagine the past as being a much better place, but I’m too young to actually know what it was like. Supposedly it was a time when people expected to be judged on the content of their character rather than.. whatever it is these days, what you look like mainly. Certainly it seems such things as the ‘British Reserve’ were thought of as a good thing, rather than a life-crippling dysfunction. People keep telling me that the world is a much better place now that all these social changes have taken place, and I’m sure it is for a lot of people, but it doesn’t seem to be for me. I was one who believed passionately in my youth that we could achieve this utopian dream if everyone was just nicer to each other and we got rid of all these ‘old fasioned’ non politically correct views, but now it just seems like I fell for a lie. Keivn.
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"Belenus" <bele…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > > I made a similar agreement with myself–a journal entry, when I was 18. I > > really had no intention of actually holding myself to it, but, so far, so > > good. > How long this stands? For me it has been 8 years since this entry. I also > knew exactly how I would act with a girl I’m interested in. I thought I > could change that… but not now.
It’s been 8 years for me too. I’m 26. > I don’t write everyday but regurlarly. For me it’s something different, I > used to write with subjectivity a lot, now I only write about my analysis, > being REALLY objective. Reading old thoughts is funny though brings the > monets back into my head, for analysis all over again…
Yeah, I don’t write everyday either. I write most often when I’m down/depressed…whatever I happen to be thinking about…there’s no theoretical comtemplations or philosophicals ponderings or anything like that, really…just dumb shit.
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I didn’t think anyone would ever understand my view, until I read this post. I’ve always wanted to be worth waiting for. I’ve always wanted to learn and grow together, make mistakes together, and grow in our understanding. I could never be with an experienced woman because I have nothing to offer her which she has not already known and I fear that I will never find what I need, since women don’t look at me any way. 
Wanna see my pic? http://www.denofheathens.com/picphoto_00001.gif
Response:
jasonml <bba…@hotmail.comatose> wrote in message
news:ouSx6.7388$RF1.421412@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net… > "Belenus" <bele…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > > That’s why since I was 13 I was going to be single all my > > life. > I made a similar agreement with myself–a journal entry, when I was 18. I > really had no intention of actually holding myself to it, but, so far, so > good.
How long this stands? For me it has been 8 years since this entry. I also knew exactly how I would act with a girl I’m interested in. I thought I could change that… but not now. > Yes 13, I have written proof, I regurlaly write my thoughts, > > and it’s scary to see that I was so right back then. > Yeah, I’ve written a journal for about 10 years. I went about a year > without writing anything though, and I’ve only just recently resumed writing > in it. It’s pretty neat to go back and time and see what I was thinking on, > say, November 2, 1992. It’s interesting to see how my neurosis, cynicism, > and negativity has grown over time, just like a fungus
I don’t write everyday but regurlarly. For me it’s something different, I used to write with subjectivity a lot, now I only write about my analysis, being REALLY objective. Reading old thoughts is funny though brings the monets back into my head, for analysis all over again… Alex
Response:
anon-29…@anon.twwells.com wrote:
: Thank you, 1woman, for inspiring this post : Today, I came to recognize one of my larger problems, : as it relates to finding companionship of the opposite : sex: courtship is dead and buried (at least with the : younger, more sexually immoral generation), and I : can’t accept it. : I mentioned this to an older person tonight. She : usually ridicules my theories, but she agreed with : this one. That is bad; that means it is true. I would not say that exactly. I suppose it depends on what one means by courtship. In the US anyways, people are getting married much later than they used to, and engagements are longer as well. People are not pressured into rushing into marriage as much as before, which is a good thing for all of us late bloomers. Stephen
Response:
"Belenus" <bele…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > That’s why since I was 13 I was going to be single all my > life.
I made a similar agreement with myself–a journal entry, when I was 18. I really had no intention of actually holding myself to it, but, so far, so good. Yes 13, I have written proof, I regurlaly write my thoughts, > and it’s scary to see that I was so right back then.
Yeah, I’ve written a journal for about 10 years. I went about a year without writing anything though, and I’ve only just recently resumed writing in it. It’s pretty neat to go back and time and see what I was thinking on, say, November 2, 1992. It’s interesting to see how my neurosis, cynicism, and negativity has grown over time, just like a fungus
Response:
Joe, That was so entirely sweet and so from the heart! It made me long for a time long ago in the days of chivalry and manners! It is so beautiful to know that there are some still out there with a tender heart. It will happen one day sweetie, hang in there! Kim — ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The most pathetic person in the world is the person who has sight, but no vision." ~Helen Keller~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Each week, an area the size of Rhode Island is ravaged by logging. More than 80% of the world’s ancient forests have already disappeared. Find out what you can do to save ancient forests. http://www.greenpeaceusa.org/forests ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <anon-29…@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message
news:9a6heo$1j61$1@twwells.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thank you, 1woman, for inspiring this post > Today, I came to recognize one of my larger problems, > as it relates to finding companionship of the opposite > sex: courtship is dead and buried (at least with the > younger, more sexually immoral generation), and I > can’t accept it. > I mentioned this to an older person tonight. She > usually ridicules my theories, but she agreed with > this one. That is bad; that means it is true. > I’m a hopeless romantic and a hopeless idealist. In > the old days, up until the (despicable) hippie > generation (which was started by idealists, ironically > enough), men were expected to pursue women slowly and > steadily, over a long period of time, until 1) she > either became unavailable (i.e., another man won her > heart), 2) he won over someone else, or 3) he won her > over. Women with any amount of class were expected to > say "No," at the start. It was the man’s job to meet > her standards. > Why did this change? Probably because of the more > transient, faster-paced lifestyle that is wrecking > modern society. Anyway, I don’t think it should have > changed. I act as if it didn’t. > I’m not comfortable quickly wooing women. With > strangers, I am bad conversationalist, bad at talking > about that person or myself. I like the idea of > getting to know someone before engaging in anything > romantic with her, because I want to make sure this is > the kind of woman I want. Oh, for the days when high > school/college sweethearts married one another > Things today are not fair to guys like me; players > have the advantage now. Superficiality and loveless > sex matters more than does forming close, long-lasting > relationships. > Nowadays, any man who pursues a women over any length > of time is considered desperate or possibly crazy. > Damn I am a bit insane, but it’s this sort of > thing that erodes my sanity. When one tries and tries > for something, he deserves a chance at getting it, I > believe. > Moreover, I know what I like, but I rarely find that > type. Then, I never get anywhere, because that woman > is skittish and is scared off by aggressive behavior > of any sort. Any persistence scares her, and the fact > that society suggests that a persistent man is trouble > hurts me even more. Where can I find a woman who is > willing to allow me to prove myself to her? I feel > more and more desperate…. > ===== > Joe > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text > — > For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail: > h…@anon.twwells.com — for an automatically returned help message > ad…@anon.twwells.com – for the service’s administrator > ano…@anon.twwells.com — anonymous mail to the administrator
Response:
EXCELLENT post Joe!!!!!! Exactly how I feel. > Today, I came to recognize one of my larger problems, > as it relates to finding companionship of the opposite > sex: courtship is dead and buried (at least with the > younger, more sexually immoral generation), and I > can’t accept it.
No s**t, I’m the younger generation and I feel like I was born 20 too late on that subject. > I mentioned this to an older person tonight. She > usually ridicules my theories, but she agreed with > this one. That is bad; that means it is true. > I’m a hopeless romantic and a hopeless idealist. In > the old days, up until the (despicable) hippie > generation (which was started by idealists, ironically > enough), men were expected to pursue women slowly and > steadily, over a long period of time, until 1) she > either became unavailable (i.e., another man won her > heart), 2) he won over someone else, or 3) he won her > over. Women with any amount of class were expected to > say "No," at the start. It was the man’s job to meet > her standards.
That’s what I expect too. But knowing how people act around me I feel pressured into trying to pace things to something way too fast for me to feel comfortable. Just take the girl I like and left (Scenario Question thread) I want to win her slowly, but I know there are other guys who will go and do a fast job (pun intended) > Why did this change? Probably because of the more > transient, faster-paced lifestyle that is wrecking > modern society. Anyway, I don’t think it should have > changed. I act as if it didn’t.
That’s a fact, look at our we live, from the day we are born we are rushed into this and that. We go to school, college then start working like a bag of potatoes (don’t ask I love comparing humans to veggies) We are becoming mindless automatons. > Moreover, I know what I like, but I rarely find that > type. Then, I never get anywhere, because that woman > is skittish and is scared off by aggressive behavior > of any sort. Any persistence scares her, and the fact > that society suggests that a persistent man is trouble > hurts me even more. Where can I find a woman who is > willing to allow me to prove myself to her? I feel > more and more desperate….
Feeling your pain man, I know how it feels trust me. That’s why since I was 13 I was going to be single all my life. Yes 13, I have written proof, I regurlaly write my thoughts, and it’s scary to see that I was so right back then. I knew this was coming, why didn’t I kill myself then when I had the chance??? I guess that’s why I don’t wear a bicycle helmet and ride like crazy downtown. I hope that I have a major accident and die. Alex
Response:
Thank you, 1woman, for inspiring this post Today, I came to recognize one of my larger problems, as it relates to finding companionship of the opposite sex: courtship is dead and buried (at least with the younger, more sexually immoral generation), and I can’t accept it. I mentioned this to an older person tonight. She usually ridicules my theories, but she agreed with this one. That is bad; that means it is true. I’m a hopeless romantic and a hopeless idealist. In the old days, up until the (despicable) hippie generation (which was started by idealists, ironically enough), men were expected to pursue women slowly and steadily, over a long period of time, until 1) she either became unavailable (i.e., another man won her heart), 2) he won over someone else, or 3) he won her over. Women with any amount of class were expected to say "No," at the start. It was the man’s job to meet her standards. Why did this change? Probably because of the more transient, faster-paced lifestyle that is wrecking modern society. Anyway, I don’t think it should have changed. I act as if it didn’t. I’m not comfortable quickly wooing women. With strangers, I am bad conversationalist, bad at talking about that person or myself. I like the idea of getting to know someone before engaging in anything romantic with her, because I want to make sure this is the kind of woman I want. Oh, for the days when high school/college sweethearts married one another Things today are not fair to guys like me; players have the advantage now. Superficiality and loveless sex matters more than does forming close, long-lasting relationships. Nowadays, any man who pursues a women over any length of time is considered desperate or possibly crazy. Damn I am a bit insane, but it’s this sort of thing that erodes my sanity. When one tries and tries for something, he deserves a chance at getting it, I believe. Moreover, I know what I like, but I rarely find that type. Then, I never get anywhere, because that woman is skittish and is scared off by aggressive behavior of any sort. Any persistence scares her, and the fact that society suggests that a persistent man is trouble hurts me even more. Where can I find a woman who is willing to allow me to prove myself to her? I feel more and more desperate…. ===== Joe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail: h…@anon.twwells.com — for an automatically returned help message ad…@anon.twwells.com – for the service’s administrator ano…@anon.twwells.com — anonymous mail to the administrator
Response:
Question:
These things you mention are all part of the feminist agenda to ruin the patriarchal system. They prefer an american indian type of society where the woman is the head of the household and where men move in and out of the squaw’s life like shadows. We invite you to join or form a local chapter of TALIBAN. We are forming a Southern California chapter. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t care about my "criminal" history! I care about the inferences they make regarding
Response:
I don’t care about my "criminal" history! I care about the inferences they make regarding drugging my stepchildren and possibly going "upstairs" to my stepdaughter’s room while everyone is sleeping! What about how they make it seem like I was proud because I "squeezed [my stepson's] arm real hard" when disciplining him? I pulled him off of his sister after he had squished her hard enough against the car door to make her cry out in pain! I called his father to tell him about the incident and he said that my stepson would have received far worse punishment had he been there! What about the comment about taking this to "Child Protective Services"? On what grounds? No, I probably do not have enough to sue, but I just needed to vent. As you can see, I’m not attempting to hide anything. I’m going to tuck my tail between my legs and run away as though I’ve done something wrong! I’ll move on because I am a good dad to two beautiful 7-year old twin boys who need me to help them through another family wreckage… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Yuo can sue anyone for anything. For instance, I can sue YOU for being a blond and hurting my feelings, or for posting the message that I am replying to and wasting my time. The real question is, can you sue and win a lawsuit. The above examples are rather clear on that a suit based on the above claims has no chance of winning. What matters is whether the acts of the defendant breached some legal duty that he had towards you and whether you suffered damages as a result. Here, what your in-laws wrote does not appear to be actionable to me, in other words, I do not think that you could win any damages. Unless what they mentioned as facts — your criminal history — is false, their email does not constitute defamation. Your inlaws do seem to be rather domineering and appear as if they do want to run the life of their daughter. Whether they do it for a good cause or not is unclear. But their use of psychological balderdash and outright manipulation (I can point out specific instances of psychological manipulation there) raises some alarms. You also appear to be either very angry momentarily, or perhaps generally a very hot-headed person. You might want to react to any external stimuli in a calmer fashion. Re: borderline personality disorder, or any other "disorders", codependencies, whatever. They may have a million of causes, but ultimately I think that it is very hard to live with anyone who is seriously psychologically upset. I actually like very m,any "abnormal" or "unusual" people, but would not want to be involved with them long term. igor * I received the following message from the parents of my wife after her * decision to move back to our home in an attempt to save our marriage. * It was copied to six of her relatives via email. I am at a loss to * explain why this was necessary – especially since I had discussed this * with my wife and her parents before we were married! I’ve never * threatened to hurt her or her children, nor have I ever tried to stop * her from leaving. * * Much of the information they’ve based this letter on was provided by * my wife who has been diagnosed as being manic-depressive/bipolar. Her * parents have acknowledged (in writing) that her lack of honesty and * lying where reasons for the breakup of her first marriage. * * Will someone please read this and tell me if I have any legal grounds * for an Invasion of Privacy or libel suit? * * Additional information follows this text. * * TIA * Greiving Dad ‘O Twins * * <– begin — * * THE FOLLOWING IS OUR PLEA TO HELP "D", "H" AND "C". WE LOVE * YOU EACH ONE VERY DEARLY. WE ARE CONCERNED AS A WHOLE FAMILY AND WANT * YOU TO KNOW THAT WE LOVE YOU AND ARE HERE FOR YOU. * * "D": * * IN THE PAST YEAR, YOU HAVE HAD MANY OCCASSIONS THAT YOU FELT THE * NECESSITY TO LEAVE THE RELATIONSHIP WITH STEVE – WE ALWAYS TOLD YOU IT * WOULD HAVE TO BE YOUR DECISION AND WE WOULD SUPPORT THAT – BUT IT YOU * DECIDED TO STAY – WE WOULD REMAIN NEUTRAL AFFECTING THAT DECISION. BUT * THAT ASIDE NOW, YOU NEED TO KNOW HOW WE FEEL ABOUT YOUR DECISION TO * STAY. YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING: * * WOULD YOU MARRY THIS MAN: * * CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICE (CPS) WITH AT LEAST 3 ENTRIES (ONE * OR MORE * REFERRING TO SEXUAL CONTACT WITH A CHILD) * * FIRED FROM OR LAID-OFF 5 OUT OF LAST 8 JOBS * * 2 ARREST FOR BODILY INJURY * * 1 ARREST FOR DRUGS * * ADMITTED USER OF DRUGS * * PSYCHOLOGICAL EVALUATION STATES "DATA SUGGEST THAT STEVEN * MAY BE OVERLY RIGID AND INFLEXIBLE IN HIS COGNITIVE STYLE. ONCE HE * DECIDES ON A COURSE OF ACTION HE IS UNLIKELY TO CHANGE HISMIND OR * CONSIDER ALATERNATIVES. WHILE SUCH A STRAATEGY MAY BE HIGHLY EFFECTIVE * IN BUSINESS OR PROFESSIONAL SITUATIONS, IT MAY BE SOMEWHAT OF A * LIABILIITY WHEN IT COMES TO PARENTING. HE DOES NOT HOLD WOMEN IN HIGH * REGARD. HIS RESPONSES INDICATE THAT HE VIEWS WOMEN AS UNTRUSTWORTHY * AND MANIPULATIVE, AND THAT HE MAY OVER-IDENTIFY WITH MASCULINE * FIGURES." * * PSYCHOLOGICAL EVALUATION STATES "HE VOLUNTEERED THAT WOMEN * ARE OFTEN MANIPULATIVE IN THEIR RELATIONSHIPS WITH MEN AND OFTEN * PRECIPITATE DOMESTICE VOILENCE. WOMEN KNOW WHAT TO DO TO GET MEN TO * HIT THEM. THEY SAY THERE IS NEVER A REASON TO HIT A WOMAN. NOT TRUE. * THEY BREAK YOUR PROPERTY AND VERBALLY PROVOKE YOU TO THE POINT WHERE * YOU HIT THEM. THEN THEY PLAY THE VICTIM." * * PSYCHOLOGICAL EVALUATION STATES "HIS DEMEANOR IS DOMINEERING AND * SOMEWHAT INTIMIDDATING, A PRESENTATION THAT IS AIMED AT EXPRESSING HIS * NEED FOR CONTROL OVER PEOPLE AND SITUATIONS. DATA INDICATE THAT STEVEN * TENDS TO RELY UPON PSYCHOLOGICAL DEFENSE MECHANISMS SUCH AS * INTELLECTUALIZATION AND RATIONALIZATION AS A MEANS OF MANAGING STRESS * AND CONFLICT. AS IN HIS THINKING, STEVEN’S EMOTIONS APPEAR TO BE * RIGIDLY CONTROLLED AND UNSPONTANEOUS." * * PSYCHOLOGICAL EVALUATION STATES "STEVEN’S RESPONSES ON THE PARENTING * MEASURES INDICATED THAT HE IS A STRICT DISCIPLINARIAN WHO IDENTIFIES * HIS MASCULINE AUTHORITY AS A PRIMARY PARENTAL STRENGTH. WHILE HE * EMPHASIZES THE IMPORTANCE OF COMMUNICATION, DATA INDICATED THAT HEMAY * NEED TO LISTEN TO HIS CHILDREN MORE RATHER THAN RELY UPON WHAT HE * BELIEVES THE PROBLEM TO BE. HIS INTERACTIONS WITH THE CHILDREN * INDICATE THAT HE OFTEN RELATES TO THEM AS LITTLE ADULTS RATHER THAN AS * CHILDREN WITH SPECIFIC DEVELOPMENTAL NEEDS. HE APPEARS TO PLACE MORE * OF A PRIORITY ON DISCIPLINE RATHER THAN THE EMOTIONAL NEEDS OF * CHILDREN, AND THEREFORE MAY SACRIFICE ONE IN FAVOR OF THE OTHER." * * PSYCHOLOGICAL EVALUATION STATES "THAT HIS FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS WERE * MARKED BY FREQUENT ARGUMENTS, AND THAT THERE WAS PHYSICAL VIOLENCE * BETWEEN HIS PARENTS." * * AS WE READ YOUR E-MAIL , TWO THINGS COME IMMEDIATELY TO MY MIND. IT * APPEARS AS IF YOU HOLD ME/US IN SOME WAY RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR * CONTINUED MARITAL PROBLEMS IF I READ WHAT" DON’T CALL ME" MEANS * CORRECTLY AND SECONDLY YOU (AND STEVE AND MICHAEL) CONTINUE TO * DISREGARD YOUR CHILDREN’S MENTAL HEALTH AND WELFARE BY ALWAYS PUTTING * YOURSELVES FIRST. YOUR LACK OF CONSIDERATION LAST SUNDAY TO LET US * KNOW YOU HAD CHANGED YOUR MIND WAS NOT NECESSARY. * * IT MUST BE DIFFICULT TO FACE YOURSELF AFTER ONCE AGAIN GETTING THE * KID’S HOPE UP OF A NORMAL FAMILY LIFE ONLY TO ONCE AGAIN PLACE THEIR * WELFARE SECOND AND PUTTING THEM BACK INTO AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE THEY * CANNOT THRIVE MUCH LESS HAVE A REMOTELY NORMAL "FAMILY" LIFE. HOW * BROKEN HEARTED CAN THEY GET? – PROBABLY NOT MUCH MORE. HOW SUPPRISED * ARE YOU GOING TO BE WHEN THEY WANT TO GO TO LIVE WITH MICHAEL,( IN * THREE YEARS) WHICH WILL BE EXACTLY WHAT STEVE WANTS. WORSE YET, IF NOT * TO MICHAEL, THEN TO DRUGS OR TO THE STREETS OR TO JAIL. THIS IS WHAT * YOU ARE SETTING THEM UP FOR OR IS IT WHAT STEVE IS SETTING THEM UP * FOR? YOU DO UNDERSTAND THAT YOUR CHILDREN HAVE A STATISTICAL * PROBABILITY OF TURNING TO DRUGS AT 50% GREATER THAN THAT OF THE * GENERAL POPULATION. And do you fully understand why? * * AS A CO-DEPENDENT PERSON, YOUR INABILITY TO SEVER DISRUPTIVE AND * DANGEROUS RELATIONSHIPS HAS AGAIN PROVEN TO BE AN OBSTACLE YOU COULD * NOT OVERCOME STEVE TALKED YOU OUT OF IT – AGAIN . AS YOU TOLD ME, HE * CONTINUES TO SAY ITS ALL YOUR FAULT. AS LONG AS YOU BELIEVE THIS, THIS * RELATIONSHIP IS NOT GOING TO IMPROVE. SADLY I HAVE WATCHED THE * ESCALATION OF YOUR FIGHTING, ITS STATICALLY ONLY A MATTER OF TIME * BEFORE HE REALLY HURTS YOU OR ONE OF THE KIDS OR MAYBE DOES SOMETHING * WORSE.(OR MAYBE ALREADY HAS AND I JUST DONT KNOW ABOUT IT -YET) HE IS * ON A CLASSIC PATH TO PHYSICAL ABUSE, HAVING ALREADY PASSED VERBAL * ABUSE AND PHYSICAL CONTACT DURING HEATED ARGUMENTS, THERE IS NOT MUCH * FURTHER TO GO. A SIMILAR PATH WAS FOLLOWED IN STEVE’S FIRST MARRIAGE. * MAYBE YOU SHOULD TALK TO KAREN. * * WHY DO YOU THINK HE HASN’T GONE TO COUNSELING BEFORE? HE DIDN’T GO TO * SAVE HIS FIRST MARRIAGE, EITHER. COULD IT BE THAT AS YOU TOLD ME – HE * SAYS HE DOESN’T NEED HELP – EVERY ONE ELSE DOES. HAVE YOU TWO BEEN * YET? WHY NOT? WE ALREADY KNOW THE ANSWER TO THIS. WHEN FORCED TO GO * TO COUNSELING HOW MUCH GOOD DO YOU THINK IT DOES? WHY ONLY NOW , * BECAUSE IT SAYS WHAT YOU NEEDED TO HEAR TO BE CONTROLLED BACK INTO * YOUR CURRENT SITUATION. DOESNT THAT SEEM CONTRARY TO ALL YOU KNOW AND * HAVE BEEN TAUGHT? WHEN YOU FIRST MET HIM YOU TOLD ME HE REMINDED YOU A * LOT OF ME. IT IS SAD TO ME THAT YOU EVER THOUGHT HE WAS A LOT LIKE * ME. IF THIS WAS EVER TRUE, LOOK AT THE CHANGE IN HIM. I SEE NO * SIMILARITIES BETWEEN US AND NOW FIND THAT A COMPLETELY REPULSIVE * THOUGHT. * * HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS IS THE PERSON YOU WANT YOUR CHILDREN TO USE * AS A ROLE MODEL. HOW FAR WILL "H" BE ABLE TO GO WHEN HE TURNS OUT TO *
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Response:
<pardon the snips – just cleaning up so the conversation doesn’t get too unwieldy I don’t know anything about my current wife’s psych evals other than what she’s shared with me.
Actually, I was inquiring about the psych eval that focused on YOU. How long and involved was it? Over what length of time was your personality observed? She moved back in on August 28th. She was/is 33 years old.
So she has had one manic episode, coupled with a spotty history that features depression, upon which her diagnosis has been made. Can’t fault the doctor, it’s a reasonable direction to take. Be aware, however, that the doctor uses such labels more for insurance purposes (to cover her treatment). IOW, at this point, he is making an educated guess– but there is a good chance he could prove his guess wrong. The only definitive test to prove bipolar is whether or not treatment works. Treatment does NOT work on those who are NOT bipolar. Lithium is the first choice, and it is 60% effective. That means, if lithium works, then the doctor’s diagnosis was right. If it doesn’t, she still has numerous treatment options to try — if one works, bingo, she’s bipolar. The farther she goes not finding successful treatment, given all the options she has today, the more and more likely she’s been misdiagnosed. While I’m not a doctor, all I can tell you is that she exhibited a "Jekyl & Hyde" personality! I walked on eggshells constantly not knowing what would trigger an argument!
That can fit the profile of a number of disorders. In and of itself, it does not necessarily indicate bipolar. How were her sleeping habits? Did she talk non-stop? Did she have allusions of grandeur? What were her spending habits like? The answers might give more clues. She was taking Prozac, although I’ve since heard some rather disturbing information about a segment of the population who experience very negative side effects from this and other "SSRI-class" drugs. (See http://www.drugawareness.org for more
information.) Yes, I’m all too familiar with the side effects of Prozac. It is well known that Prozac given to a person with bipolar tendencies, will develop the condition. This is what happened to me. But one manic episode, no matter what triggered it, does *NOT* make you bipolar (maybe for the insurance companies.) There has to be a pattern of repeated episodes. Hence, the reason they’re rethinking my own diagnosis. Think of it this way: many people have depression following a major life event, such as a death or divorce. This one event, in itself, does not make them "clinically depressed." They may need a 6-9 month course of antidepressants to get them through the one episode, but they do not need to be on meds the rest of their lives in order to proactively prevent further episodes. The same can be said for manic episodes. Many people, in reaction to a major life event, can exhibit manic-like symptoms for an extended period of time, but do not go on to develop a clinical course. Yes, she has had a history of depression. She never mentioned the word "manic" or "bipolar."
Here’s were it gets tricky. 80% of bipolars initially present as having Major Depression (I was one of the other 20%). They may have minor manic peaks, but these seem like such a relief from constant unrelenting depression, they don’t take much notice of them. As the disease goes on, eventually the manic episodes get more pronounced, and they may be dx’d as bipolar. Or, an AD (Prozac in particular) may induce mania in a susceptible person. Certain OTC herbal remedies, and steroids, can also bring about such a condition, if the tendency is there. You can, btw, have the tendency, but never receive the stress (chemical, psychological, etc.) to trigger it. I’ll admit, that it looks like I intentionally meant to look through her things. However, these papers were looseleaf and were not bound. Nor were they marked "private." They fell on the floor after the box dropped. I couldn’t stop reading, however, after I saw what they contained! I’d always told her that she knew a lot more about me than I knew about her. Boy, was I right!
Well, your action in this instance may be understandable. I’m curious: Did she ever accuse you of invading her privacy? Perhaps going in her purse without asking? Things like that? Maybe to you it wasn’t a big deal, but to her it was an issue? "Controlling" , "domineering", "manipulative",
"judgemental" – all of words that mean different things to different people! Why is it that, if you have a position that you are confident with, that other label you with these words?
Trust me, I understand what you mean, although I come from a different angle. <g You have a valid issue. I’ve heard my stbx make similar comments. From my angle, what I think is important is how your wife perceives you. Doesn’t matter your intention — if she perceives your intentions wrong, then there is something wrong with the dynamics of your relationship. And that goes both ways. Note, I do not say SHE is wrong or YOU are wrong, just the particular combination of the two of you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I would never ask someone to agree with me if, in fact, they really didn’t! I don’t require that everyone believe as I do. But if others ask me to give their position serious consideration, am I not due the same? And if we are unable to agree, then why does it have to mean "you don’t love me?" or "its always my fault, isn’t it?" or "you think you know everything!"? I couldn’t think of anything else to say other than, "lets ask a neutral, third-party professional to hear us out." I was then met with, "you’ll probably leave if you don’t like what you hear!" (Thinking for me again!) When I asked her what she’d do if the therapist said that I really wasn’t being too unreasonable, she said,
"I’d leave!" I’m not the resident expert, but some of this does sound like what I’ve heard about borderline personality. It’s that push-pull thing: I hate you — I don’t want you to leave me. She didn’t exhibit this behavior early in our relationship!
Funny how that works, isn’t it? <g Again, "like her" was not what she presented! I was looking for a mature, independent woman who either had or had experience with children because my twin boys are a handful! No, I wasn’t looking for a mom for them – I just wanted to know that whomever I eventually decided to share the rest of my life with could withstand the mental and physical beating that children can inflict!
Not following you here — can you expand on this? I don’t know anything of substance about your relationship with your "stbx", but, having been drawn into this sad snowball, I wouldn’t think of judging your "stbx" without giving him/her the courtesy of hearing their side of the story!
He and I have been working on this over the last two and a half years, through couples counseling, independent therapy, our court-appointed GAL, the psych evaluator, etc. I have heard his story exhaustively, and I am listening. I do actually see his side to it. Both of us have some heavy defects that need addressing — for me it’s my bipolar, for him, it’s what the experts have labeled "emotional boundary" issues. We both recognize we have these issues to work on. He acknowledges now that his emotional boundary issues are not the best situation for a person with bipolar tendencies. I acknowledge that a person with bipolar tendencies is not the best situation for a someone with emotional boundary issues. From that acknowldgement, we’re moving on. Have you ever considered that it was *you* who may have been unconsciously creating
circumstances in your marriage for which you could then stand in judgement of?
Yes. Quite exhaustively. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Kick the sleeping dog when no one’s looking – the dog is startled. Kick the sleeping dog when no one’s looking – the dog snarles ("Better watch that dog!", you tell others.). Kick the sleeping dog when no one’s looking – the dog bites you ("I TOLD you that was a BAD DOG! Someone get a shotgun!"). All in an effort to make oneself look good – at the non- needy ones’ expense! Please don’t respond with the usual, "See there, I KNEW it!" line! There was NEVER any physical abuse – just a self- admitted "attention addict" who went out of her way to get it –
good or bad! Our issues were different, and never involved anything that even came close to physical abuse, so I will refrain from commenting. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -No, I can’t blame her parents for being concerned, especially because they had to walk into a hospital room when she was 17 years old, right after they had found her following a severe beating with a baseball bat at the hands of her 21-year old, local football hero boyfriend! (This after her father had held a gun to his head earlier that month threatening to kill him if ever came around again!) However, I’d suggested, before she actually moved back into our home, that she keep her apartment and keep the "breathing room" she wanted! I would attend any counseling she wanted with the therapist of her choice! I later found out that she had told her parents that I’d said I wouldn’t go! I appreciate your advice. However, the ugliness of her parents’ letter was totally unnecessary! Drugging my stepson, pornographic tendencies, implying that I’d molest my stepdaughter!!! What did they have to lose by hearing me out?
Vent here, by all means. Get it out of your system, you need to do that. But then focus your energies where you can make the most difference. And that’s not going to be her parents. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Maybe they wouldn’t like to have heard that I’d stopped talking to them 3 months earlier,
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Yuo can sue anyone for anything. For instance, I can sue YOU for being a blond and hurting my feelings, or for posting the message that I am replying to and wasting my time.
Hoo boy would you have a whole new set of troubles if you try to file suit "for anything" here in New York State. It’s called "abuse of process" and carries some serious penalties. In order to sue, you must be "standing to sue" — that is, you have to meet some criteria regarding damages, statutes, etc. So: no, no, no, the issue is NOT simply whether or not you can collect in or out of court.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, Jen! I’m sorry if it appears that I’m attempting to bash my wife. Despite all of the problems we’ve had, I still love her, but realize now (albeit too late) that she needs help – as do I. The psych eval her used to blast me was conducted in June of 1996 after my first wife had served me for the third time in 2 years and had me kicked out of my home on my birthday! Hopefully, its not hard to imagine that I may have been a little "less than generous" towards women at that time! I am very familiar with what stress can do to otherwise "normal" people. How long did the psych eval take?
I don’t know anything about my current wife’s psych evals other than what she’s shared with me. She was diagnosed bipolar by the same psychiatrist she’s been seeing for the past 3 years since her drug rehab the day after she and her kids moved back into our home. So, how long ago was that, and at what age was she?
She moved back in on August 28th. She was/is 33 years old. What were her presenting symptoms that led to the diagnosis…
While I’m not a doctor, all I can tell you is that she exhibited a "Jekyl & Hyde" personality! I walked on eggshells constantly not knowing what would trigger an argument! , and is she on meds now? Are they making a difference?
She was taking Prozac, although I’ve since heard some rather disturbing information about a segment of the population who experience very negative side effects from this and other "SSRI-class" drugs. (See http://www.drugawareness.org for more information.) Has she had a history of depression, treated or untreated?
Yes, she has had a history of depression. She never mentioned the word "manic" or "bipolar." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Her son and daughter both told me that she had been crying the entire time the movers were moving her into their apartment. She herself admitted that she "didn’t know why she was acting this way" and was "so ashamed at what she had done." Shame, particularly irrational shame, is a big feature of depression, as well as "black" mania. There are interesting theories for this. I could clearly see that something was wrong. As I said in my notes, I had suspected this several months earlier, but only had it thrown back in my face as trying to make her look crazy "just like my first wife!" I’ve not gone into any detail about the journal I found as I was cleaning out her closet. Yes, my stbx often found my journals while cleaning my closet. I always wondered why he read them, when they were clearly marked "private."
I’ll admit, that it looks like I intentionally meant to look through her things. However, these papers were looseleaf and were not bound. Nor were they marked "private." They fell on the floor after the box dropped. I couldn’t stop reading, however, after I saw what they contained! I’d always told her that she knew a lot more about me than I knew about her. Boy, was I right! It contained writing and correspondence with her former boyfriend and her parents covering the 16 months immediately preceeding our relationship. It also covered the period at the height of her cocaine addiction. While I’m not a psychiatrist, I believe that any reasonable person reading this material would conclude that this is a person with a very low self-esteem. There are interesting theories out now about bipolar disorder that say it takes a certain type of relationship dynamic, in addition to a biological predisposition, to trigger the disorder. Hallmark of this dynamic is a person with certain qualities, including low self-esteem, coupled with a person who is domineering, controlling, manipulative, and judgemental. Would you say that characterizes her relationships?
"Controlling" , "domineering", "manipulative", "judgemental" – all of words that mean different things to different people! Why is it that, if you have a position that you are confident with, that other label you with these words? I would never ask someone to agree with me if, in fact, they really didn’t! I don’t require that everyone believe as I do. But if others ask me to give their position serious consideration, am I not due the same? And if we are unable to agree, then why does it have to mean "you don’t love me?" or "its always my fault, isn’t it?" or "you think you know everything!"? I couldn’t think of anything else to say other than, "lets ask a neutral, third-party professional to hear us out." I was then met with, "you’ll probably leave if you don’t like what you hear!" (Thinking for me again!) When I asked her what she’d do if the therapist said that I really wasn’t being too unreasonable, she said, "I’d leave!" Her writings reveal the wild mood swings, paranoia and jealousy that I experienced first hand in our relationship! It was as if I was simply a continuation of her relationship with her former boyfriend! So now maybe the question you should ask yourself is why you were drawn to her particular personality?
She didn’t exhibit this behavior early in our relationship! What is it about you that wanted a relationship with someone like her?
Again, "like her" was not what she presented! I was looking for a mature, independent woman who either had or had experience with children because my twin boys are a handful! No, I wasn’t looking for a mom for them – I just wanted to know that whomever I eventually decided to share the rest of my life with could withstand the mental and physical beating that children can inflict! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The "pathological liar" label came from the marriage counselor she and her ex-husband saw after they moved out their home town. Her ex told me this, not to insult her, but as a matter of fact. If so, then she has *more* or *other* than bipolar. Which is not all that uncommon. Many psychiatrists are not all that up on bipolar and misdiagnose frequently. But there are clear-cut hallmarks for bipolar. Check out Dr. Ivan Goldberg’s web site (find it from any search engine) for a good list of symtpoms if you’re curious. The site also differentiates bipolar from the numerous other disorders. And, there is a lot of info targeted at loved ones of bipolars. If you haven’t figured it out by now, I was dx’d bipolar at the time of my marital difficulties, but my shrink has since questioned his diagnosis; have not had a relapse since leaving my stbx. In all my time following alt.support.manic.depression, I’ve only once or twice encountered true pathological liars. (they were hard to miss! . In both cases, it turned out one was MPD, the other borderline personality.
I don’t know anything of substance about your relationship with your "stbx", but, having been drawn into this sad snowball, I wouldn’t think of judging your "stbx" without giving him/her the courtesy of hearing their side of the story! Have you ever considered that it was *you* who may have been unconsciously creating circumstances in your marriage for which you could then stand in judgement of? You know: Kick the sleeping dog when no one’s looking – the dog is startled. Kick the sleeping dog when no one’s looking – the dog snarles ("Better watch that dog!", you tell others.). Kick the sleeping dog when no one’s looking – the dog bites you ("I TOLD you that was a BAD DOG! Someone get a shotgun!"). All in an effort to make oneself look good – at the non-needy ones’ expense! Please don’t respond with the usual, "See there, I KNEW it!" line! There was NEVER any physical abuse – just a self-admitted "attention addict" who went out of her way to get it – good or bad! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -And after reading the letter that her father faxed to her one month before she began dating me, it was clear that even he saw that she had "a problem telling the truth" and that it was "a major factor in the failure of her first marriage." BTW, I’ve had a chance to speak with both her ex-husband and her former boyfriend – both of whom had been represented to her parents as being "violent" and "verbally and physically abusive." They paint a completely different picture which has, again, been confirmed in her own writing in her own words in her journal! I’m not asking for her to come back at this point. The atmosphere has been completely poisoned. My only point to her was that there was nothing in my psych profile that we hadn’t discussed at length. In fact, I volunteered to let her review it at any time and left sitting out on my office desk! I’m just crushed at the way her parents stepped in and turned this into such an ugly situation! I agree with Kathy on this one. Can’t blame a parent for being concerned for their child. Can’t blame them if it turns out their judgement was swayed by a pathological liar. Better to let this one slide with empathy and forgiveness.
No, I can’t blame her parents for being concerned, especially because they had to walk into a hospital room when she was 17 years old, right after they had found her following a severe beating with a baseball bat at the hands of her 21-year old, local football hero boyfriend! (This after her father had held a gun to his head earlier that month threatening to kill him if ever came around again!) However, I’d suggested, before she actually moved back into our home, that she keep her apartment and keep the "breathing room" she wanted! I would attend any counseling she wanted with the therapist of her choice! I later found out that she had told her parents that I’d said I wouldn’t go! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -It’s as though they’ve been told that I threatened to hurt her and her kids! I guess
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Response:
Chilling indeed. Have no idea about your legal question, but I guess it hinges on whether or not any of it is true. Are you saying your wife wrote that psych eval they quoted from, conjured it up from her bipolar mind? I’m curious: when was she diagnosed bipolar, at what age? Before or after she married you? Bipolars, by the way, are not known for being pathological liars. They may stretch the truth, or hide the truth, or tell white lies, just like the rest of us, but they don’t lie pathologically. It is not a symptom of this syndrome. jen
Response:
Hello, Jen! I’m sorry if it appears that I’m attempting to bash my wife. Despite all of the problems we’ve had, I still love her, but realize now (albeit too late) that she needs help – as do I. The psych eval her used to blast me was conducted in June of 1996 after my first wife had served me for the third time in 2 years and had me kicked out of my home on my birthday! Hopefully, its not hard to imagine that I may have been a little "less than generous" towards women at that time! She was diagnosed bipolar by the same psychiatrist she’s been seeing for the past 3 years since her drug rehab the day after she and her kids moved back into our home. Her son and daughter both told me that she had been crying the entire time the movers were moving her into their apartment. She herself admitted that she "didn’t know why she was acting this way" and was "so ashamed at what she had done." I could clearly see that something was wrong. As I said in my notes, I had suspected this several months earlier, but only had it thrown back in my face as trying to make her look crazy "just like my first wife!" I’ve not gone into any detail about the journal I found as I was cleaning out her closet. It contained writing and correspondence with her former boyfriend and her parents covering the 16 months immediately preceeding our relationship. It also covered the period at the height of her cocaine addiction. While I’m not a psychiatrist, I believe that any reasonable person reading this material would conclude that this is a person with a very low self-esteem. Her writings reveal the wild mood swings, paranoia and jealousy that I experienced first hand in our relationship! It was as if I was simply a continuation of her relationship with her former boyfriend! The "pathological liar" label came from the marriage counselor she and her ex-husband saw after they moved out their home town. Her ex told me this, not to insult her, but as a matter of fact. And after reading the letter that her father faxed to her one month before she began dating me, it was clear that even he saw that she had "a problem telling the truth" and that it was "a major factor in the failure of her first marriage." BTW, I’ve had a chance to speak with both her ex-husband and her former boyfriend – both of whom had been represented to her parents as being "violent" and "verbally and physically abusive." They paint a completely different picture which has, again, been confirmed in her own writing in her own words in her journal! I’m not asking for her to come back at this point. The atmosphere has been completely poisoned. My only point to her was that there was nothing in my psych profile that we hadn’t discussed at length. In fact, I volunteered to let her review it at any time and left sitting out on my office desk! I’m just crushed at the way her parents stepped in and turned this into such an ugly situation! It’s as though they’ve been told that I threatened to hurt her and her kids! I guess I’m still trying to deal with the unfairness of this by "forcing" others to give me an opportunity to speak. But it doesn’t look like that’s going to happen. I’m just sorry that we weren’t given the chance to work it out among ourselves. I thought I had married and adult – not a child who is still under the control of her parents. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Chilling indeed. Have no idea about your legal question, but I guess it hinges on whether or not any of it is true. Are you saying your wife wrote that psych eval they quoted from, conjured it up from her bipolar mind? I’m curious: when was she diagnosed bipolar, at what age? Before or after she married you? Bipolars, by the way, are not known for being pathological liars. They may stretch the truth, or hide the truth, or tell white lies, just like the rest of us, but they don’t lie pathologically. It is not a symptom of this syndrome. jen
Response:
Hello, Jen! I’m sorry if it appears that I’m attempting to bash my wife. Despite all of the problems we’ve had, I still love her, but realize now (albeit too late) that she needs help – as do I. The psych eval her used to blast me was conducted in June of 1996 after my first wife had served me for the third time in 2 years and had me kicked out of my home on my birthday! Hopefully, its not hard to imagine that I may have been a little "less than generous" towards women at that time!
I am very familiar with what stress can do to otherwise "normal" people. How long did the psych eval take? She was diagnosed bipolar by the same psychiatrist she’s been seeing for the past 3 years since her drug rehab the day after she and her kids moved back into our home.
So, how long ago was that, and at what age was she? What were her presenting symptoms that led to the diagnosis, and is she on meds now? Are they making a difference? Has she had a history of depression, treated or untreated? Her son and daughter both told me that she had been crying the entire time the movers were moving her into their apartment. She herself admitted that she "didn’t know why she was acting this way" and was "so ashamed at what she had done."
Shame, particularly irrational shame, is a big feature of depression, as well as "black" mania. There are interesting theories for this. I could clearly see that something was wrong. As I said in my notes, I had suspected this several months earlier, but only had it thrown back in my face as trying to make her look crazy "just like my first wife!" I’ve not gone into any detail about the journal I found as I was cleaning out her closet.
Yes, my stbx often found my journals while cleaning my closet. I always wondered why he read them, when they were clearly marked "private." It contained writing and correspondence with her former boyfriend and her parents covering the 16 months immediately preceeding our relationship. It also covered the period at the height of her cocaine addiction. While I’m not a psychiatrist, I believe that any reasonable person reading this material would conclude that this is a person with a very low self-esteem.
There are interesting theories out now about bipolar disorder that say it takes a certain type of relationship dynamic, in addition to a biological predisposition, to trigger the disorder. Hallmark of this dynamic is a person with certain qualities, including low self-esteem, coupled with a person who is domineering, controlling, manipulative, and judgemental. Would you say that characterizes her relationships? Her writings reveal the wild mood swings, paranoia and jealousy that I experienced first hand in our relationship! It was as if I was simply a continuation of her relationship with her former boyfriend!
So now maybe the question you should ask yourself is why you were drawn to her particular personality? What is it about you that wanted a relationship with someone like her? The "pathological liar" label came from the marriage counselor she and her ex-husband saw after they moved out their home town. Her ex told me this, not to insult her, but as a matter of fact.
If so, then she has *more* or *other* than bipolar. Which is not all that uncommon. Many psychiatrists are not all that up on bipolar and misdiagnose frequently. But there are clear-cut hallmarks for bipolar. Check out Dr. Ivan Goldberg’s web site (find it from any search engine) for a good list of symtpoms if you’re curious. The site also differentiates bipolar from the numerous other disorders. And, there is a lot of info targeted at loved ones of bipolars. If you haven’t figured it out by now, I was dx’d bipolar at the time of my marital difficulties, but my shrink has since questioned his diagnosis; have not had a relapse since leaving my stbx. In all my time following alt.support.manic.depression, I’ve only once or twice encountered true pathological liars. (they were hard to miss! . In both cases, it turned out one was MPD, the other borderline personality. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -And after reading the letter that her father faxed to her one month before she began dating me, it was clear that even he saw that she had "a problem telling the truth" and that it was "a major factor in the failure of her first marriage." BTW, I’ve had a chance to speak with both her ex-husband and her former boyfriend – both of whom had been represented to her parents as being "violent" and "verbally and physically abusive." They paint a completely different picture which has, again, been confirmed in her own writing in her own words in her journal! I’m not asking for her to come back at this point. The atmosphere has been completely poisoned. My only point to her was that there was nothing in my psych profile that we hadn’t discussed at length. In fact, I volunteered to let her review it at any time and left sitting out on my office desk! I’m just crushed at the way her parents stepped in and turned this into such an ugly situation!
I agree with Kathy on this one. Can’t blame a parent for being concerned for their child. Can’t blame them if it turns out their judgement was swayed by a pathological liar. Better to let this one slide with empathy and forgiveness. It’s as though they’ve been told that I threatened to hurt her and her kids! I guess I’m still trying to deal with the unfairness of this by "forcing" others to give me an opportunity to speak. But it doesn’t look like that’s going to happen. I’m just sorry that we weren’t given the chance to work it out among ourselves. I thought I had married and adult – not a child who is still under the control of her parents.
Give her space — lots of it. Whether you’ve given up on a future or not, if you care about her, you’ll give her some breathing room to either pull herself together, or reach rock bottom. Which, if she is as bad as you say, would be the best thing for her, as heart-wrenching as it is to watch. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Chilling indeed. Have no idea about your legal question, but I guess it hinges on whether or not any of it is true. Are you saying your wife wrote that psych eval they quoted from, conjured it up from her bipolar mind? I’m curious: when was she diagnosed bipolar, at what age? Before or after she married you? Bipolars, by the way, are not known for being pathological liars. They may stretch the truth, or hide the truth, or tell white lies, just like the rest of us, but they don’t lie pathologically. It is not a symptom of this syndrome. jen
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Response:
Boy, you sure do have your hands full here! Most of all, don’t bother to sue your in-laws. You are very hurt (and rightly so), and suing them will not benefit you in any tangible way. Unfortunately, there is no material loss, so its unclear what you would get in return. The real issue seems to be your wife’s bi-polar condition. As someone who was very close to someone with that illlness….I know how insidious it can be. So, her abilitiy to make rational decisions may be inpaired at times. However, her parents are also a huge issue. If they know she has this condition, why are they dishing out bad advice via email? Are they in denial about her condition? As I learned through my own near divorce/reconciliation is that the only stand parents should be taking is to encourage keeping the family together by encouraging therapy. Your in-laws are too deep in your issues and they are waving the emotionally charged wand around with no conflict resolution in sight. I doesn’t appear that they are wound too tight either. I don’t mean to giggle here…its not funny, but in slandering you they exposed their own irrational lunacy. They look like idiots. Furthermore, who would take those kind of issues and send it in an email cc:’d to family members like an interoffice memo. That’s bizarre. I can only say, I hope you and your wife will find your way into joint counseling…whether or not you reconcile. No matter the outcome, you’d be in a much better place with some resolution. Good luck!
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I agree with the other posters who have counseled not to sue–I don’t see what could be gained by that. However, the common theme seems to be to trash the in-laws as cretins. While the issue of sending copies of the email to various relatives is certainly questionable, from their perspective it may seem like the only way to get their daughter out of what they perceive to be (yet another) disasterous situation. Which brings us to what I perceive to be the heart of the problem–your wife has obviously been telling only one side of the story to her parents up to this point, being very selective in the information she passes on to them. They have leapt (in my mind understandably) to the wrong conclusion. If your wife is serious about making a go at reconcilliation, I think it is fair to expect that she make some serious effort toward cleaning up the mess that her actions have put into motion. |Kathy Litherland | People make their own history, but No hacemos el amor;|Dept. of Anthro | they do not make it under El nos hace |U. of Illinois | circumstances of their own choosing
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I received the following message from the parents of my wife after her decision to move back to our home in an attempt to save our marriage. It was copied to six of her relatives via email. I am at a loss to explain why this was necessary – especially since I had discussed this with my wife and her parents before we were married! I’ve never threatened to hurt her or her children, nor have I ever tried to stop her from leaving. Much of the information they’ve based this letter on was provided by my wife who has been diagnosed as being manic-depressive/bipolar. Her parents have acknowledged (in writing) that her lack of honesty and lying where reasons for the breakup of her first marriage. Will someone please read this and tell me if I have any legal grounds for an Invasion of Privacy or libel suit? Additional information follows this text. TIA Greiving Dad ‘O Twins <– begin — THE FOLLOWING IS OUR PLEA TO HELP "D", "H" AND "C". WE LOVE YOU EACH ONE VERY DEARLY. WE ARE CONCERNED AS A WHOLE FAMILY AND WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT WE LOVE YOU AND ARE HERE FOR YOU. "D": IN THE PAST YEAR, YOU HAVE HAD MANY OCCASSIONS THAT YOU FELT THE NECESSITY TO LEAVE THE RELATIONSHIP WITH STEVE – WE ALWAYS TOLD YOU IT WOULD HAVE TO BE YOUR DECISION AND WE WOULD SUPPORT THAT – BUT IT YOU DECIDED TO STAY – WE WOULD REMAIN NEUTRAL AFFECTING THAT DECISION. BUT THAT ASIDE NOW, YOU NEED TO KNOW HOW WE FEEL ABOUT YOUR DECISION TO STAY. YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING: WOULD YOU MARRY THIS MAN: CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICE (CPS) WITH AT LEAST 3 ENTRIES (ONE OR MORE REFERRING TO SEXUAL CONTACT WITH A CHILD) FIRED FROM OR LAID-OFF 5 OUT OF LAST 8 JOBS 2 ARREST FOR BODILY INJURY 1 ARREST FOR DRUGS ADMITTED USER OF DRUGS PSYCHOLOGICAL EVALUATION STATES "DATA SUGGEST THAT STEVEN MAY BE OVERLY RIGID AND INFLEXIBLE IN HIS COGNITIVE STYLE. ONCE HE DECIDES ON A COURSE OF ACTION HE IS UNLIKELY TO CHANGE HISMIND OR CONSIDER ALATERNATIVES. WHILE SUCH A STRAATEGY MAY BE HIGHLY EFFECTIVE IN BUSINESS OR PROFESSIONAL SITUATIONS, IT MAY BE SOMEWHAT OF A LIABILIITY WHEN IT COMES TO PARENTING. HE DOES NOT HOLD WOMEN IN HIGH REGARD. HIS RESPONSES INDICATE THAT HE VIEWS WOMEN AS UNTRUSTWORTHY AND MANIPULATIVE, AND THAT HE MAY OVER-IDENTIFY WITH MASCULINE FIGURES." PSYCHOLOGICAL EVALUATION STATES "HE VOLUNTEERED THAT WOMEN ARE OFTEN MANIPULATIVE IN THEIR RELATIONSHIPS WITH MEN AND OFTEN PRECIPITATE DOMESTICE VOILENCE. WOMEN KNOW WHAT TO DO TO GET MEN TO HIT THEM. THEY SAY THERE IS NEVER A REASON TO HIT A WOMAN. NOT TRUE. THEY BREAK YOUR PROPERTY AND VERBALLY PROVOKE YOU TO THE POINT WHERE YOU HIT THEM. THEN THEY PLAY THE VICTIM." PSYCHOLOGICAL EVALUATION STATES "HIS DEMEANOR IS DOMINEERING AND SOMEWHAT INTIMIDDATING, A PRESENTATION THAT IS AIMED AT EXPRESSING HIS NEED FOR CONTROL OVER PEOPLE AND SITUATIONS. DATA INDICATE THAT STEVEN TENDS TO RELY UPON PSYCHOLOGICAL DEFENSE MECHANISMS SUCH AS INTELLECTUALIZATION AND RATIONALIZATION AS A MEANS OF MANAGING STRESS AND CONFLICT. AS IN HIS THINKING, STEVEN’S EMOTIONS APPEAR TO BE RIGIDLY CONTROLLED AND UNSPONTANEOUS." PSYCHOLOGICAL EVALUATION STATES "STEVEN’S RESPONSES ON THE PARENTING MEASURES INDICATED THAT HE IS A STRICT DISCIPLINARIAN WHO IDENTIFIES HIS MASCULINE AUTHORITY AS A PRIMARY PARENTAL STRENGTH. WHILE HE EMPHASIZES THE IMPORTANCE OF COMMUNICATION, DATA INDICATED THAT HEMAY NEED TO LISTEN TO HIS CHILDREN MORE RATHER THAN RELY UPON WHAT HE BELIEVES THE PROBLEM TO BE. HIS INTERACTIONS WITH THE CHILDREN INDICATE THAT HE OFTEN RELATES TO THEM AS LITTLE ADULTS RATHER THAN AS CHILDREN WITH SPECIFIC DEVELOPMENTAL NEEDS. HE APPEARS TO PLACE MORE OF A PRIORITY ON DISCIPLINE RATHER THAN THE EMOTIONAL NEEDS OF CHILDREN, AND THEREFORE MAY SACRIFICE ONE IN FAVOR OF THE OTHER." PSYCHOLOGICAL EVALUATION STATES "THAT HIS FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS WERE MARKED BY FREQUENT ARGUMENTS, AND THAT THERE WAS PHYSICAL VIOLENCE BETWEEN HIS PARENTS." AS WE READ YOUR E-MAIL , TWO THINGS COME IMMEDIATELY TO MY MIND. IT APPEARS AS IF YOU HOLD ME/US IN SOME WAY RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR CONTINUED MARITAL PROBLEMS IF I READ WHAT" DON’T CALL ME" MEANS CORRECTLY AND SECONDLY YOU (AND STEVE AND MICHAEL) CONTINUE TO DISREGARD YOUR CHILDREN’S MENTAL HEALTH AND WELFARE BY ALWAYS PUTTING YOURSELVES FIRST. YOUR LACK OF CONSIDERATION LAST SUNDAY TO LET US KNOW YOU HAD CHANGED YOUR MIND WAS NOT NECESSARY. IT MUST BE DIFFICULT TO FACE YOURSELF AFTER ONCE AGAIN GETTING THE KID’S HOPE UP OF A NORMAL FAMILY LIFE ONLY TO ONCE AGAIN PLACE THEIR WELFARE SECOND AND PUTTING THEM BACK INTO AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE THEY CANNOT THRIVE MUCH LESS HAVE A REMOTELY NORMAL "FAMILY" LIFE. HOW BROKEN HEARTED CAN THEY GET? – PROBABLY NOT MUCH MORE. HOW SUPPRISED ARE YOU GOING TO BE WHEN THEY WANT TO GO TO LIVE WITH MICHAEL,( IN THREE YEARS) WHICH WILL BE EXACTLY WHAT STEVE WANTS. WORSE YET, IF NOT TO MICHAEL, THEN TO DRUGS OR TO THE STREETS OR TO JAIL. THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE SETTING THEM UP FOR OR IS IT WHAT STEVE IS SETTING THEM UP FOR? YOU DO UNDERSTAND THAT YOUR CHILDREN HAVE A STATISTICAL PROBABILITY OF TURNING TO DRUGS AT 50% GREATER THAN THAT OF THE GENERAL POPULATION. And do you fully understand why? AS A CO-DEPENDENT PERSON, YOUR INABILITY TO SEVER DISRUPTIVE AND DANGEROUS RELATIONSHIPS HAS AGAIN PROVEN TO BE AN OBSTACLE YOU COULD NOT OVERCOME STEVE TALKED YOU OUT OF IT – AGAIN . AS YOU TOLD ME, HE CONTINUES TO SAY ITS ALL YOUR FAULT. AS LONG AS YOU BELIEVE THIS, THIS RELATIONSHIP IS NOT GOING TO IMPROVE. SADLY I HAVE WATCHED THE ESCALATION OF YOUR FIGHTING, ITS STATICALLY ONLY A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE HE REALLY HURTS YOU OR ONE OF THE KIDS OR MAYBE DOES SOMETHING WORSE.(OR MAYBE ALREADY HAS AND I JUST DONT KNOW ABOUT IT -YET) HE IS ON A CLASSIC PATH TO PHYSICAL ABUSE, HAVING ALREADY PASSED VERBAL ABUSE AND PHYSICAL CONTACT DURING HEATED ARGUMENTS, THERE IS NOT MUCH FURTHER TO GO. A SIMILAR PATH WAS FOLLOWED IN STEVE’S FIRST MARRIAGE. MAYBE YOU SHOULD TALK TO KAREN. WHY DO YOU THINK HE HASN’T GONE TO COUNSELING BEFORE? HE DIDN’T GO TO SAVE HIS FIRST MARRIAGE, EITHER. COULD IT BE THAT AS YOU TOLD ME – HE SAYS HE DOESN’T NEED HELP – EVERY ONE ELSE DOES. HAVE YOU TWO BEEN YET? WHY NOT? WE ALREADY KNOW THE ANSWER TO THIS. WHEN FORCED TO GO TO COUNSELING HOW MUCH GOOD DO YOU THINK IT DOES? WHY ONLY NOW , BECAUSE IT SAYS WHAT YOU NEEDED TO HEAR TO BE CONTROLLED BACK INTO YOUR CURRENT SITUATION. DOESNT THAT SEEM CONTRARY TO ALL YOU KNOW AND HAVE BEEN TAUGHT? WHEN YOU FIRST MET HIM YOU TOLD ME HE REMINDED YOU A LOT OF ME. IT IS SAD TO ME THAT YOU EVER THOUGHT HE WAS A LOT LIKE ME. IF THIS WAS EVER TRUE, LOOK AT THE CHANGE IN HIM. I SEE NO SIMILARITIES BETWEEN US AND NOW FIND THAT A COMPLETELY REPULSIVE THOUGHT. HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS IS THE PERSON YOU WANT YOUR CHILDREN TO USE AS A ROLE MODEL. HOW FAR WILL "H" BE ABLE TO GO WHEN HE TURNS OUT TO TREAT PEOPLE (BOTH MEN AND WOMEN) LIKE STEVE DOES. WILL YOU BE PROUD OF HIM? WILL YOU BE PROUD OF YOURSELF THAT YOU LET THAT HAPPEN? THINK ABOUT THE WAY STEVE TREATS US AND PUT YOUR SELF FORWARD 20 YEARS. THIS IS HOW HE IS TEACHING "H" TO TREAT HIS GIRLFRIEND AND THEN HIS WIFE, WHEN THAT TIME COMES. THIS IS WHAT HE IS TEACHING "H" AS THE WAY TO INTERACT WITH YOUR FAMILY. "H" WILL TREAT YOU EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. HE MIGHT EVEN LEARN SO LITTLE THAT HE WONT BE ABLE TO COME TO OUR FUNERALS, WHAT DO YOU THINK.? HOW WILL YOU PROTECT YOUR CHILDREN FROM HIS PORNOGRAPHIC TENDENCIES, ESPECIALLY YOUR DAUGHTER? DO YOU KNOW WHAT HE IS DOING AT NIGHT WHEN HE DOESN’T COME TO BED AND IS ON THE COMPUTER OR UPSTAIRS? HOW WILL YOU EXPLAIN TO CPS THE NEXT TIME HE HURTS "H"- I REMEMBER HIM TELLLING YOUR MOTHER AND I – "I SQUEEZED HIS ARM REAL HARD" HE SAID PROUDLY. I CAN UNDERSTAND DISCIPLINING A CHILD BUT I WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND A 220 LB MAN HURTING A CHILD JUST TO MAKE A POINT — NEVER! HOW ARE YOU GOING TO EXPLAIN TO AND FACE YOUR CHILDREN WHEN THEY COME TO YOU AND ASK YOU "WHY DIDN’T YOU DO SOMETHING, MOMMY, WHEN YOU KNEW WHAT THE SITUATION WAS AND WHAT WAS GOING ON. WILL YOU LIKE IT (AND YOU ARE RAPIDLY APPROACHING) HAVING BASICALLY NO FAMILY AS STEVE HAS MANAGED TO DO? DO YOU HAVE ANY FRIENDS, EVEN ONE , ANY COUPLES FRIENDS, DO YOU WONDER WHY NOT – I DON’T! WE HAVE OBSERVED A COMPLETE DEGRADATION OF YOUR SELF ESTEEM SINCE YOUR MARRIAGE TO STEVE, I WONDER WHY IT HAS BEEN IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO STEVE TO HAVE A WIFE WITH ABSOLUTELY NO SELF-ESTEEM TO ROB YOU OF YOURS? IT CERTAINLY HELPS PARTIALLY EXPLAIN HOW HE CONTROLS YOU. WHAT A LIFE IT MUST BE TO HAVE SOMEONE WHO LISTENS TO YOUR PHONE CONVERSATIONS, TIMES YOU WHEN YOU LEAVE THE HOUSE, LEAVES YOU AT A BAR BY YOUR SELF BECAUSE SOMEONE LOOKED AT YOU, CALLS YOU SEWER-CURSE NAMES, MAKES YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN CRY ON AN EVERYDAY, OR EVERY OTHER DAY-BASIS, AND ON AND ON. GOD YOU MUST REALIZE HE HAS ABSOLUTELY NO RESPECT FOR YOU AS A WOMAN, A SPOUSE, AND FINALLY, EVEN A PERSON. STEVE’S THE ONE BEFORE YOU EVEN GOT MARRIED THAT SAID YOU NEEDED TO BE ON SOMETHING TO CALM YOU DOWN – DO YOU SUPPOSE THAT WAS A WAY TO CONTROL YOU – INSTEAD OF YOU HAVING YOUR OWN OPINION AND MIND? THIS SHOULD BE THE ENDING PARAGRAPH BUT I’M NOT SURE IT WILL BE. YEARS AGO WE, OUR FAMILY, LEFT PORTLAND BECAUSE YOU WERE IN A RELATIONSHIP THAT WAS PROVING TO BE DANGEROUS PHYSICALLY TO YOU AND OTHERWISE TO ME. I CONSIDERED LEAVING A SACRIFICE THAT NEEDED TO BE MADE, YOUR HEALTH AND WELFARE CAME FIRST. FOUR YEARS AGO AT GREAT COST AND VIRTUAL ABANDONMENT OF OUR BUSINESS FOR 3 MONTHS, WE MOVED TO SAN ANTONIO TO PULL YOU AND THE KIDS THROUGH THE MOST DIFFICULT TIME OF YOUR AND THEIR LIVES. AGAIN A RELATIONSHIP WHERE YOUR PHYSICAL WELL BEING WAS IN JEPARDY EVERY DAY – NOT TO MENTION THE PHYSICAL PAIN TO "H" AND THE MENTAL ANGUISH THE CHILDREN HAD TO ENDURE. HE, TOO, SHOWED YOUR KIDS, AT LEAST "H", THAT IT IS OK TO HURT PEOPLE PHYSICALLY, FOR NOT ANY PRACTICAL REASON. I WORRY ABOUT HUNTEER CONTINUING TO BE ROUGH AND SOMETIMES HURTING "C" -FOR NO REASON. STEVE HAS CONTINUED THAT EXAMPLE – "DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO" DOES … read more »
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IN THE PAST YEAR, YOU HAVE HAD MANY OCCASSIONS THAT YOU FELT THE NECESSITY TO LEAVE THE RELATIONSHIP WITH STEVE – WE ALWAYS TOLD YOU IT WOULD HAVE TO BE YOUR DECISION AND WE WOULD SUPPORT THAT – BUT IT YOU DECIDED TO STAY – WE WOULD REMAIN NEUTRAL AFFECTING THAT DECISION. BUT THAT ASIDE NOW, YOU NEED TO KNOW HOW WE FEEL ABOUT YOUR DECISION TO STAY. This email letter has effectively ended the agreement my wife and I had made to divorce as friends. It has caused me emotional distressed on a level I’ve never felt before and has seriously impaired my ability to keep our business going. My children miss their step-brother and sister and wonder if they will ever see them again. This letter was neither fair nor necessary and I believe my wife’s parents should be held accountable somehow.
These in-laws are scum, low-life. I wouldn’t be surprised if they appeared on Springer. I understand the letter to your wife, but not cc’ing it to all the relatives. They are controlling and manipulative. If your current wife didn’t know about your past "indisgressions" before she married you, that would be one thing. BTW, leave the suing alone. Get custody of the kids and keep the in-laws from seeing them. Yeah, that’ll teach ‘em. Honestly though, this letter would piss me off, but you’re better off ignoring it, hard as it would be. Nothing good will come from trying to sue them unless they were somehow lying about the facts. — Joe
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– Greetings… – You know for 2000 years the christians have used violence to push their faith on those who did not want it… In the US…the christians are still doing this, while denying everything… These christians rush to take credit for everything good in the world… whether they had a hand in it or not. And when anything bad happens they rush to put the blame off on anyone else that they can find. .. Well, here’s a good example of christian kindness folks… Fire bombs hit Belfast shops August 2, 1998 11:33 PM EDT BELFAST (Reuters) – Two Belfast shops and a pub were hit by firebombs on Sunday and dissident Republicans eager to upset the fragile Northern Ireland peace process were suspected of the attacks. Police warned Belfast shopowners not to return to their stores for fear there could be more incendiary devices. “It is clear we are a long way from peace,” said Jeffrey Donaldson of the pro-British Ulster Unionist Party. The firebombs followed Saturday’s massive car bomb attack in the town of Banbridge that injured 35 people and damaged up to 200 houses. Britain’s Northern Ireland Secretary Mo Mowlam angrily condemned the car bomb as “a cowardly attack” and said it was a miracle no one was killed. The 35 people were wounded — none seriously — when the bomb exploded in the town center of Banbridge on a busy Saturday shopping day. Police said most of those treated were suffering from cuts and bruises. “This was an appalling outrage,” Mowlam said after visiting the town about 25 miles (40 kms) southwest of Belfast. “The damage is extensive and it is a miracle no one was killed.” No one claimed responsibility for the blast but politicians blamed dissident republican groups opposed to a landmark deal struck in April to bring peace to the British province after three decades of sectarian and political violence. “Early indications would seem to point to republican terrorists,” said Donaldson. While the main guerrilla groups have declared a ceasefire, three republican splinter groups have not — The Continuity Irish Republican Army, the “Real IRA” and the Irish National Liberation Army. Remember…. Religion is just an excuse that idiots use to to tell someone else what to believe in when the person is just too stupid to figure it out on their own… Religion is for who fear hell…Spirituality is for those who have been there… Be Well… Nicole Dawn Maschke P.O. Box 602696, Cleve.,OH, 44102 The Phoenix: http://home.earthlink.net/~jmwindgate/phoenix.html ICQ: 439028 Online Hours: 09:00 – 16:00 EDT The mind is like a book… Open and much is learned. Closed and nothing is learned…. The Key To suviving the future is to always be adaptable to constant change…
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There isn’t a religious bone in my body. However I do have a 4 degree in history and you are one stupid dumb ass. Typical Liberal. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Greetings… – You know for 2000 years the christians have used violence to push their faith on those who did not want it… In the US…the christians are still doing this, while denying everything… These christians rush to take credit for everything good in the world… whether they had a hand in it or not. And when anything bad happens they rush to put the blame off on anyone else that they can find. .. Well, here’s a good example of christian kindness folks… Fire bombs hit Belfast shops August 2, 1998 11:33 PM EDT BELFAST (Reuters) – Two Belfast shops and a pub were hit by firebombs on Sunday and dissident Republicans eager to upset the fragile Northern Ireland peace process were suspected of the attacks. Police warned Belfast shopowners not to return to their stores for fear there could be more incendiary devices. “It is clear we are a long way from peace,” said Jeffrey Donaldson of the pro-British Ulster Unionist Party. The firebombs followed Saturday’s massive car bomb attack in the town of Banbridge that injured 35 people and damaged up to 200 houses. Britain’s Northern Ireland Secretary Mo Mowlam angrily condemned the car bomb as “a cowardly attack” and said it was a miracle no one was killed. The 35 people were wounded — none seriously — when the bomb exploded in the town center of Banbridge on a busy Saturday shopping day. Police said most of those treated were suffering from cuts and bruises. “This was an appalling outrage,” Mowlam said after visiting the town about 25 miles (40 kms) southwest of Belfast. “The damage is extensive and it is a miracle no one was killed.” No one claimed responsibility for the blast but politicians blamed dissident republican groups opposed to a landmark deal struck in April to bring peace to the British province after three decades of sectarian and political violence. “Early indications would seem to point to republican terrorists,” said Donaldson. While the main guerrilla groups have declared a ceasefire, three republican splinter groups have not — The Continuity Irish Republican Army, the “Real IRA” and the Irish National Liberation Army. Remember…. Religion is just an excuse that idiots use to to tell someone else what to believe in when the person is just too stupid to figure it out on their own… Religion is for who fear hell…Spirituality is for those who have been there… Be Well… Nicole Dawn Maschke P.O. Box 602696, Cleve.,OH, 44102 The Phoenix: http://home.earthlink.net/~jmwindgate/phoenix.html ICQ: 439028 Online Hours: 09:00 – 16:00 EDT The mind is like a book… Open and much is learned. Closed and nothing is learned…. The Key To suviving the future is to always be adaptable to constant change…
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– Greetings… – Typical behavior for someone who cannot refute what I say… So instead they castigate me in order to try and invalidate me … lmao… Remember…. Religion is just an excuse that idiots use to to tell someone else what to believe in when the person is just too stupid to figure it out on their own… Religion is for who fear hell…Spirituality is for those who have been there… Be Well… Nicole Dawn Maschke P.O. Box 602696, Cleve.,OH, 44102 The Phoenix: http://home.earthlink.net/~jmwindgate/phoenix.html ICQ: 439028 Online Hours: 09:00 – 16:00 EDT The mind is like a book… Open and much is learned. Closed and nothing is learned…. The Key To suviving the future is to always be adaptable to constant change… | There isn’t a religious bone in my body. However I do have a 4 degree in | history and you are | one stupid dumb ass. Typical Liberal. | |
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Bev, this is a wonderful article. BTW, are you doing any better?? I’m really concerned about you, as you already know. I’m hoping that you’re somewhat better??? Love Ya, Tommye – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is an editorial I have written for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. I don’t know if they’ll print it yet (but they usually print most of my "letters to the editor." Animal Cruelty? Three cats allow us to live with them (from their point of view, of course). If one of them became injured and I permitted that animal to suffer for 40 days, I would be pounced upon by animal rights groups and labeled as some kind of monster. I would richly deserve the title. I, as a human being, however, am not protected by any parallel human rights organizations. I am, in fact, compelled by "mangled care" to have to wait those same long 40 days to get my pain (at times, agony) relieved. I’m glad I supported some kind of universal health care when her opponents were reviling Mrs. Clinton. It certainly could not be worse than what we have now where cost comes before care and profit before patient. Is compassion for the sick a thing of the past? Yes. Does caring at any time come into the picture? No. Just the almighty buck, the god in whom they trust. My disorder is neurological. A brief five-minute series of injections into my throat would relieve the pain, yet I will have to wait 40 long days and nights for those five short minutes. Does that make sense? Is the practitioner (I am loath to call her a doctor) going to be called a monster? Of course not. She is still on a pedestal and people kiss her feet. They cannot see that they are made of clay. Beverly Kurtin I have, by the way, been official turned down by my PPO to seek PROFESSIONAL help. The two doctors who administer the shot (double your money, double your fun) gave me the bottom of a bottle of Botox. I did not realize at the time that I could have asked hold OLD the solution was. Botox is good for four hous after rehydrating with a saline solution. In any event, I got only 16 days of semi-relief. I had three or four days that I would rate as a "1." The rest were between 2.5 and 3, then down to 4, then 4+. The PPO’s "physician" contacted the two ducktors who gave me the injections and they said, "Wow, she’s doing great!." Did they bother contacting ME? You know the answer to that. When the ENT asked me what I needed pain relief for I pointed out that the first word in Spasmodic Dysphonia was SPASM. I over adduct so tightly that my air supply is sometimes cut off. Yet the PPO doesn’t consider that all that important. I’ve appealed again. I fully expect to be told to go to hell. At that time I will reveal the names of the guilty. Ciao! Bev
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This is an editorial I have written for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. I don’t know if they’ll print it yet (but they usually print most of my "letters to the editor." Animal Cruelty? Three cats allow us to live with them (from their point of view, of course). If one of them became injured and I permitted that animal to suffer for 40 days, I would be pounced upon by animal rights groups and labeled as some kind of monster. I would richly deserve the title. I, as a human being, however, am not protected by any parallel human rights organizations. I am, in fact, compelled by "mangled care" to have to wait those same long 40 days to get my pain (at times, agony) relieved. I’m glad I supported some kind of universal health care when her opponents were reviling Mrs. Clinton. It certainly could not be worse than what we have now where cost comes before care and profit before patient. Is compassion for the sick a thing of the past? Yes. Does caring at any time come into the picture? No. Just the almighty buck, the god in whom they trust. My disorder is neurological. A brief five-minute series of injections into my throat would relieve the pain, yet I will have to wait 40 long days and nights for those five short minutes. Does that make sense? Is the practitioner (I am loath to call her a doctor) going to be called a monster? Of course not. She is still on a pedestal and people kiss her feet. They cannot see that they are made of clay. Beverly Kurtin I have, by the way, been official turned down by my PPO to seek PROFESSIONAL help. The two doctors who administer the shot (double your money, double your fun) gave me the bottom of a bottle of Botox. I did not realize at the time that I could have asked hold OLD the solution was. Botox is good for four hous after rehydrating with a saline solution. In any event, I got only 16 days of semi-relief. I had three or four days that I would rate as a "1." The rest were between 2.5 and 3, then down to 4, then 4+. The PPO’s "physician" contacted the two ducktors who gave me the injections and they said, "Wow, she’s doing great!." Did they bother contacting ME? You know the answer to that. When the ENT asked me what I needed pain relief for I pointed out that the first word in Spasmodic Dysphonia was SPASM. I over adduct so tightly that my air supply is sometimes cut off. Yet the PPO doesn’t consider that all that important. I’ve appealed again. I fully expect to be told to go to hell. At that time I will reveal the names of the guilty. Ciao! Bev
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -linguist wrote: > Nancy Walker (lingu…@mychoice.net) writes in response: > I’m an Illinois resident. I’m acquainted with the step-daughter > of the woman in Roby Illinois who was beseiged by the police as > she resisted a court-ordered mental evaluation. I understand > that the ACLU has taken an interest in her case. Public opinion > has be stron in favor of her right to be "different." The step- > daughter, though, say that the women (Shirley Allen) was actually > reporting that she "heard voices"–tough call this one! I think we > need less "intervention" and more readily available support in the > form of counselling before things get to the severe stage. It seems > that counselling is for those who can afford to pay someone to be > a friend (friends are sometimes hard to come by!) We’ve lost the > sense of community, if we ever had it. > sylv…@netcom.com (Sylvia Caras) writes: > > > *** *** Women Vote For Force *** *** > > Action: Tell the League and Patsy White, what you > > think: > > California LWV Office: 73503.2…@compuserve.com > > California League of Women Voters Executive Vice > > President and Legislative/Program Director Patsy > > White: pats…@pacbell.net (valid June 19) > > California Web Minder: nvmk…@prodigy.com > > California Miscellaneous: l…@thecity.sfsu.edu > > *** *** Women Vote For Force *** *** > > The League of Women Voters (LWV) is collaborating with the > > pharmaceutically funded National Alliance for the Mentally > > Ill (NAMI/AMI) to further empower states to force medicate > > psychiatric patients. AMI is a family-organized advocacy > > group that supports a biological interpretation of behavior. > > The goal is to get the state LWV to support a mental health > > statement. The statement is prosocial on its face but > > neglects to exclude force. Its initiatives and endorsements > > are part of the NAMI strategy to change the law to make it > > easier to force treat inpatient and outpatient by setting a > > lesser standard for coercive medical intervention. > > Since two thirds of women who use public mental health > > services have been sexually abused as children, and women > > over 65 receive the most unconsented electro-shock, the > > League friendship with NAMI seems to contrary to other > > women’s interests and prosocial interests generally. > > In California, only family advocacy material accompanies a > > proposal for statewide concurrence for a League-endorsed > > mental health position. The California League cites NAMI as > > an authoritative source, only circulating the NAMI-created > > lobbying "fact sheet" as input for League members to use for > > voting on the proposal. The Santa Cruz *Voter* has excerpted > > sensational articles from the *California Journal* without > > noting that the Journal grew out of and spun off from the > > California AMI (CAMI). > > Though the concurrence proposal is bland on its face, > > careful reading reveals how it incorporates NAMI lobbying > > strategy. For instance, "case management’ can translate > > into outpatient commitment, a proposal that was defeated > > last year in the U S Congress. > > The California partnership with the League of Women Voters > > is part of the NAMI plan to change state and national law to > > make it easier to force medicate. NAMI has launched a > > Treatment Advocacy Center to change "current policies and > > practices (which) hamper treatment". Though the umbrella > > group is run on member dues, NAMI is organized into a series > > of non-profits which are well funded by the pharmaceutical > > industry. > > Missouri and other states report similar initiatives. But > > in a phone message May 29 to the U S League office, Cathy > > Sullivan stated she was unaware of these actions. I > > received no reply to my June 20 fax to Patsy White in San > > Francisco nor to my November phone call to Linda Fawcett in > > Santa Cruz. > > Pro-pharmacy NAMI continues to battle the anti-psychiatry > > Scientologists. NAMI champion E Fuller Torrey blames mental > > health consumer human rights supporters for the street > > deaths of the US homeless. Now NAMI is using the League > > —
Amen to your comment on need for more friends and community, Sylvia! With enough of the right kind of those, we would put the shrinks out of business. Robin
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*** *** Women Vote For Force *** *** Action: Tell the League and Patsy White, what you think: California LWV Office: 73503.2…@compuserve.com California League of Women Voters Executive Vice President and Legislative/Program Director Patsy White: pats…@pacbell.net (valid June 19) California Web Minder: nvmk…@prodigy.com California Miscellaneous: l…@thecity.sfsu.edu *** *** Women Vote For Force *** *** The League of Women Voters (LWV) is collaborating with the pharmaceutically funded National Alliance for the Mentally Ill (NAMI/AMI) to further empower states to force medicate psychiatric patients. AMI is a family-organized advocacy group that supports a biological interpretation of behavior. The goal is to get the state LWV to support a mental health statement. The statement is prosocial on its face but neglects to exclude force. Its initiatives and endorsements are part of the NAMI strategy to change the law to make it easier to force treat inpatient and outpatient by setting a lesser standard for coercive medical intervention. Since two thirds of women who use public mental health services have been sexually abused as children, and women over 65 receive the most unconsented electro-shock, the League friendship with NAMI seems to contrary to other women’s interests and prosocial interests generally. In California, only family advocacy material accompanies a proposal for statewide concurrence for a League-endorsed mental health position. The California League cites NAMI as an authoritative source, only circulating the NAMI-created lobbying "fact sheet" as input for League members to use for voting on the proposal. The Santa Cruz *Voter* has excerpted sensational articles from the *California Journal* without noting that the Journal grew out of and spun off from the California AMI (CAMI). Though the concurrence proposal is bland on its face, careful reading reveals how it incorporates NAMI lobbying strategy. For instance, "case management’ can translate into outpatient commitment, a proposal that was defeated last year in the U S Congress. The California partnership with the League of Women Voters is part of the NAMI plan to change state and national law to make it easier to force medicate. NAMI has launched a Treatment Advocacy Center to change "current policies and practices (which) hamper treatment". Though the umbrella group is run on member dues, NAMI is organized into a series of non-profits which are well funded by the pharmaceutical industry. Missouri and other states report similar initiatives. But in a phone message May 29 to the U S League office, Cathy Sullivan stated she was unaware of these actions. I received no reply to my June 20 fax to Patsy White in San Francisco nor to my November phone call to Linda Fawcett in Santa Cruz. Pro-pharmacy NAMI continues to battle the anti-psychiatry Scientologists. NAMI champion E Fuller Torrey blames mental health consumer human rights supporters for the street deaths of the US homeless. Now NAMI is using the League reputation for fairness to forward the NAMI forced treatment agenda. I would be interested to know how this happened. Another NAMI strategy is to use the media to generate fear when parents tell sensational stories about their "violent" and "gravely disabled" children. NAMI excludes as wrongly diagnosed any who have recovered. Even though a lot of parents may be sick of their kids, not many resort to totalizing public fear mongering. I feel helpless and angry and need your help to try the shine the light of outrage and shout the voice of another truth. Help maintain the human rights of people who experience mood swings, fear, voices and visions. (And yes, there’s probably almost as much "spin" in this posting as there is in the NAMI material.) Let the League know what you think of their endorsement of AMI’s positions. Circulate this message to others who might be interested. ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() League of Women Voters Los Angeles County Mental Health Position Proposed for California Statewide League Concurrence MENTAL HEALTH CARE (adopted 1989): Support for an adequately funded mental health care system which provides comprehensive services to the acutely, chronically and seriously mentally ill of all ages; maintains optimal mental health services for all clients; places emphasis on meeting the needs of children; offers mental health services for the homeless; seeks additional funds for preventive services; implements a master plan to integrate services; raises awareness of critical unmet needs; and emphasizes case management. Careful readers will note the code: "services for the homeless" means diagnosing homelessness as mental illness; "integrated services" means contingent services, no housing or food without medication compliance; "unmet needs" means commitment on a lesser standard, ‘likely to become’; "case management’ can translate into outpatient commitment. ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() Action: Tell Patsy White, California League of Women Voters Executive Vice President and Legislative/Program Director what you think: voice: 415 382 7748 fax: 415 382 8326 Internet: pats…@pacbell.net (valid June 19) League of Women Voters of California 926 J Street, Suite 515 Sacramento, CA 95814 (916) 442-7215 – FAX (916) 442-7362 73503.2…@compuserve.com http://www.ca.lwv.org/ League of Women Voters of the U.S. 1730 M Street, NW Washington, DC 20036 (202) 429-1965 – FAX (202) 429-0854 75300.3…@compuserve.com ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() Of related interest: IL spent $1 million this fall and held a woman hostage in her own home for 39 days to force a family initiated court order for a psychiatric evaluation. The full story from the IL State Journal-Register at http://www.sj-r.com/ ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() — ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sylv…@netcom.com v/f:408 426 5335 … respect to self and others … %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
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I’m looking for information on the deities of some of the different branches? I guess they’re called? of the Wiccan religion, mainly Gypsy, Faerie, Greek
^^^^^^ sorry… but to be accurate feri is not part of wicca. — Occult & Pagan Clipart Shareware http://www.feri.com/mms Feri Resources & Stories http://www.feri.com/dawn Herbal Medicine Database (under construction) http://www.feri.com/HERBDATA_toc.html
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: I’m looking for information on the deities of some of the different branches? : I guess they’re called? of the Wiccan religion, mainly Gypsy, Faerie, Greek : ^^^^^^ : sorry… but to be accurate feri is not part of wicca. I don’t believe that is accurate. Starhawk was trained by Victor Anderson, as were several others I know, and they consider themselves Wiccan. What sources are you using for your opinion? BB Marjorie HPs, Our Lady of the Sycamores
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I’m looking for information on the deities of some of the different branches? I guess they’re called? of the Wiccan religion, mainly Gypsy, Faerie, Greek ^^^^^^ sorry… but to be accurate feri is not part of wicca.
Accuratly wicca does not have ‘parts’ – but people can come to it from different directions. For a good rundown on deities try the Farrar’s books, and the many books on mythology and folk ledgends. One could ask why you need to know about so many deities though? To get to know a small number is far more interesting than to know the names and atributes of a lot. Francis
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Francis Cllarke-Rowland wrote upon the walls of the cloud kingdom: I’m looking for information on the deities of some of the different branches? I guess they’re called? of the Wiccan religion, mainly Gypsy, Faerie, Greek ^^^^^^ sorry… but to be accurate feri is not part of wicca. Does it really matter why I want to know? I’m curiouus. I’ve always liked mythology and seeing how a lot of the different dieties were similar. Sorsha aka Alamarana — | i also have heard of a Faery Wiccan group. I even posted to ask him to tell me all about it but i lost my email capabilities for awhile and never heard back.
Choalayna EnchanteD EncounterS http://pages.prodigy.net/processor/index.html
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///begin list/// My Goddess My Lord ///end list///
You would not happen to be a programmer, would you? Unlike most public religions however The Goddess has heirchy here.
Really, I was taught that the god/goddess were two distinct, yet equal, faces of the same divine being? Do I here a hint of feminism creeping in? Now all those names above could be the names of the paths followed, in which case, you would have to talk to individuals that follow those particular paths to find out what its about. Personally, I follow the path of the Healing Circle.
Hmm, haven’t you heard of Wiccans referring to the God (Lord) and Goddess by different names such as those of Greek, Roman, or other pantheons Gods/Goddesses? That is what I think is being referenced here… In any case to answer the origional question: The different names are just to give a face to the God/Goddess. They are still the same faces of the divinity. Blessed Be, Chris Kummer
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Really, I was taught that the god/goddess were two distinct, yet equal, faces of the same divine being? Do I here a hint of feminism creeping in?
Goddess forbid! <G Actually, the idea of the Goddess as " first among equals" is a teaching that I’ve come across very frequently in my study of the Craft. And it is not restricted to Dianic or other feminist paths — even the Farrar’s in their books, express a similar belief. Of course, Wicca is so wonderfully eclectic that hardly anything is universal. By the earth that is Her body, Moonlit Nightfall
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I’m looking for information on the dieties of some of the different branches? I guess they’re called? of the Wiccan religion, mainly Gypsy, Faerie, Greek (is there really that kind?), Earth, Nordic and Dragon Wicca. I’m pretty sure all of these exist, if not, sorry, but, um, anyway, I’ve been looking for information on the dieties of those religions or sub-religions or whatever they’re called, and I was wodering if anybody knew anything about them? Sorsha — /-_- / / / / / ____/ \ \ ____ \ / / ____ \/___/ // ___// // \ // // // \ \ http://www.scruz.net/~tibor/sorsha1.html http://www.scruz.net/~tibor/wicca.html
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What responses have people gotten at gyne visits? I will be setting up a gyne visit soon and I am just wondering. I will most likely head to a feminist health center coz they are inherently cooler about what women actively choose to do to their bodies. If you live in Atlanta and have had a pretty good visit with a cool gyne, preferabley female, please drop me their name in my mail. I am new to Atlanta and have had two nightmare gynecologists. I don’t want another one. Cyn
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What responses have people gotten at gyne visits? I will be setting up a gyne visit soon and I am just wondering.
My experience seems to be that nurse-practitioners are much less patronizing. Some of the worst exams I’ve had have been from male doctors. This is *not* to be sexist–but when you don’t have the same equipment, how can someone *understand* cramps or breast tenderness? All kidding aside, I have squeezed scrotums too hard, saying "Well, how tender IS this, anyway?" I have NO CLUE about things like that because I lack the same. I am new to Atlanta and have had two nightmare gynecologists. I don’t want another one.
Doctors are like carpenters. Except that they charge a lot more, and they sometimes come with horrible attitudes. If you are completely unsatisfied with the doctor’s service, SAY SO to hir face. You know you won’t be alone because the nurse is required to be present. If they are very brusk with you, pinch you painfully, clang the speculum around and jab it at you without warming it in their hand first and warning you, there is no reason you have to sit there and stay quiet. "That speculum is very cold. Can you please warm it under the lamp or in your hand for a minute first, please?" How come it’s easier for us to send tepid soup back than to say something to the doctor? Just remember that not all doctors are trained in bedside manners. Many doctors perform their first pelvic exams as med students on women who are under general anesthesia in prep for non-gynecological procedures (like an appendectomy). Believe it! — UH School of Library & Info Studies. "Whatever the cost of our o|<0_0——* libraries, the price is cheap compared to that of an ignorant =^-| |_| | nation." -Walter Cronkite [R.a.b.bit--FAQ Maintainer: "Think Ink!"] _B}_B}
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Just remember that not all doctors are trained in bedside manners. Many doctors perform their first pelvic exams as med students on women who are under general anesthesia in prep for non-gynecological procedures (like an appendectomy). Believe it!
Some years ago, Baylor med school was trying to do something about this. When I was in college, my girlfriend at the time answered an ad in the college paper for women to volunteer as subjects to help the med students learn proper pelvic exam technique. The women were divided into teams of two, and were taught to give the exams themselves. They then worked with the students to show them how to do it and provide feedback on how they were doing. I have no idea if this is done at other med schools, but it seemed like a good idea. ObBodyart: none (sorry) Stan — Stan | "The sun has riz, the sun has set, and I ain’t out of
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(med student giving pelvic exams to women UNDER GENERAL ANEASTHESIA) squicksquicksquicksquick (takes a minute to calm down and stop convulsing) Ok. ok. I can deal. OK, now having been under general many times, I can safely say if I found out that *ANYBODY* had given me an *UNNECESSARY* pelvic exam WITHOUT MY CONSENT I would SUE their fucking asses so hard they’d bleed for weeks. Now maybe my reaction is being aggravated by the fact that I know some guys in med school (or who are trying to get in, anyway) but I seriously feel ill at the very thought of this. Like, I’m not going to be able to eat my lunch now. This is an OUTRAGEOUS violation and sounds criminal to me. This is the most fucking disgusting thing I’ve ever heard of. (I know that at the med school I do research at they pay women to let students practice on them. Don’t know about the anaesthesia thing, though.)
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(med student giving pelvic exams to women UNDER GENERAL ANEASTHESIA) *UNNECESSARY* pelvic exam WITHOUT MY CONSENT I would SUE their fucking
I am so freaked by this too. I’ve never heard this before. Is this really true? I mean, how could they get away with that? God…. the medical community is so insensitive to the feminine body as it is. This would be a complete fucking outrage. But maybe we’re just going bullistic over nothing and there is a consent form involved, or something. Heidi-ho — So what about KEANU REEVES? Choosing one of today’s least able (but
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: (med student giving pelvic exams to women UNDER GENERAL ANEASTHESIA) : Ok. ok. I can deal. OK, now having been under general many times, I : can safely say if I found out that *ANYBODY* had given me an : *UNNECESSARY* pelvic exam WITHOUT MY CONSENT I would SUE their fucking : asses so hard they’d bleed for weeks. Now maybe my reaction is being : aggravated by the fact that I know some guys in med school (or who are : trying to get in, anyway) but I seriously feel ill at the very thought : of this. Like, I’m not going to be able to eat my lunch now. This is : an OUTRAGEOUS violation and sounds criminal to me. This is the most : fucking disgusting thing I’ve ever heard of. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but from what I understand it is standard practice to give a pelvic exam to female patients before an apendectomy is performed. — Nathan A. Hill "Real Men Use UNIX" "Getting an education at Case Western Reserve University is like having $50.00 shoved up your butt, a nickel at a time." –Fortune File (slightly edited)
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(med student giving pelvic exams to women UNDER GENERAL ANEASTHESIA) *UNNECESSARY* pelvic exam WITHOUT MY CONSENT I would SUE their fucking I am so freaked by this too. I’ve never heard this before. Is this really true? I mean, how could they get away with that? God…. the medical community is so insensitive to the feminine body as it is. This would be a complete fucking outrage. But maybe we’re just going bullistic over nothing and there is a consent form involved, or something. Heidi-ho
i would assume that the women were informed, and did consent. I dont remember anything in the original post to indicate otherwise. barb — "What?! The land of the free? Whoever told you that is your enemy." -Rage Against The Machine Know Your Enemy "They say jump, you say ‘How High?’"
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(med student giving pelvic exams to women UNDER GENERAL ANEASTHESIA) *UNNECESSARY* pelvic exam WITHOUT MY CONSENT I would SUE their fucking I am so freaked by this too. I’ve never heard this before. Is this really true? I mean, how could they get away with that? God…. the medical community is so insensitive to the feminine body as it is. This would be a complete fucking outrage. But maybe we’re just going bullistic over nothing and there is a consent form involved, or something. Heidi-ho
OK. Time to take a break from studying for med school. It’s the weekend, so I can’t call and ask about my school’s policy. And, I’m only a third of the way through second year, so I haven’t done pelvic exams yet. BUT, I just plain don’t think that pelvics w/o consent happen. The outcry among medical student, men and women, would end any such practice, if the medical school was stupid enough to try it. To put this in perspective, six patients recently came to the med school, the 100 of us broke into groups, and we learned how to do abdominal exams. Many of us though that 15-17 students per patient was too much, especially with three hospitals full of patients right next door. Many of us complained to the doctor who set up the course. Turns out that four of the six patients have been doing this for several years, and ALL of the patients knew exactly what they were getting in to: a two to three hour time commitent that involved having around 15-20 medical student do their first abdominal exam. To speak to the general issue of medical students doing procedures for the first time: yes, it happens. Everyone has to learn at some point. I will start my first IV on another med student, after being taught how to do it, and observing others do it. I will eventually perform my first lumbar puncture (or whatever), on a patient and under supervision, and will make every effort to do the job right. At some point, later this year, I will do my first pelvic exam. From what I’ve heard, it will either be on a volunteer, someone paid for the experience, or a consenting patient who knows that a medical student will be doing the pelvic exam, assisted and guided by a doctor. The issue of consent is taken very seriously, and the larger issue of teaching is taken very seriously. Unfortunately, a tradeoff must be made: a patient consents to a procedure done by a medical student, knowing that the student is inexperienced, but also knowing that the student will become a better doctor because of it. Every time I’m in the hospital, I wonder whether I should refer to myself as a "student doctor" or a "medical student." "Student doctor", in my mind, implies a higher skill level than I have, so I prefer "medical student." Finally, and unfortunately, the medical community has been less than sensitive to the female body in the past. And, unfortunately, some of that continues now. But, believe me, there are men and women, doctors and residents and students, who are tremendously interested in improving the medical experience women have. [shoot, that everyone has. I hate that so many people are distrustful of the medical community] Ok, rant off. ObBodMod: I wanna get an chest X-ray: nipple rings look *so* cool on X-Ray. And, next week, after exams, I’m going to try to up-guage from a 14 to a 12. — Just Greg | Do I contradict myself? | Very well then I contradict myself
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Please correct me if I’m wrong, but from what I understand it is standard practice to give a pelvic exam to female patients before an apendectomy is performed.
Key word is "unneccessary." In cases of emergency apendectomy, it _is_ neccessary to check for things like ovarian cysts and ectopic pregnancy. There are an awful lot of procedures done under general anesthesia where a pelvic exam is _not_ neccessary. That’s what is bothering people. — . *{/<< *.{/%} .’ KD6WUR
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writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just remember that not all doctors are trained in bedside manners. Many doctors perform their first pelvic exams as med students on women who are under general anesthesia in prep for non-gynecological procedures (like an appendectomy). Believe it! Some years ago, Baylor med school was trying to do something about this. When I was in college, my girlfriend at the time answered an ad in the college paper for women to volunteer as subjects to help the med students learn proper pelvic exam technique. The women were divided into teams of two, and were taught to give the exams themselves. They then worked with the students to show them how to do it and provide feedback on how they were doing. I have no idea if this is done at other med schools, but it seemed like a good idea. ObBodyart: none (sorry) Stan — Stan | "The sun has riz, the sun has set, and I ain’t out of
u c san diego med school has a woman on staff who teaches pelvic exams. she does this by being examined by every med student. she lays on the table, legs in place, sheet over legs, and holds a hand mirror past the sheet and gives verbal instuctions. she doesn’t like to be hurt, so she is very careful to stop them before they do anything wrong.
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: (med student giving pelvic exams to women UNDER GENERAL ANEASTHESIA) : Ok. ok. I can deal. OK, now having been under general many times, I : can safely say if I found out that *ANYBODY* had given me an : *UNNECESSARY* pelvic exam WITHOUT MY CONSENT I would SUE their fucking : asses so hard they’d bleed for weeks. Now maybe my reaction is being : aggravated by the fact that I know some guys in med school (or who are : trying to get in, anyway) but I seriously feel ill at the very thought : of this. Like, I’m not going to be able to eat my lunch now. This is : an OUTRAGEOUS violation and sounds criminal to me. This is the most : fucking disgusting thing I’ve ever heard of. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but from what I understand it is standard practice to give a pelvic exam to female patients before an apendectomy is performed.
That was my understanding, yes, because in women the symptoms of appendicits and gonorrhea are similar. — I’m still the apple of my daddy’s eye I’m my mama’s worst fears realized
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To speak to the general issue of medical students doing procedures for the first time: yes, it happens. Everyone has to learn at some point.[.....] Unfortunately, a tradeoff must be made: a patient consents to a procedure done by a medical student, knowing that the student is inexperienced, but also knowing that the student will become a better doctor because of it.
I have done all my doctoring at the Family Medicine Unit at the local hospital here (with a reasonable large medical school) for almost six years. I have always had medical students/interns/residents as my primary health care practitioners for that time. I have never received anything but exemplary care from them. The students tend to spend more time with you, check what they’ve decided with the staff people about, and generally show more concern (because they’re scared as hell of making as mistake.) I have had three IUDs put in (not at the same time:)) by doctors who had never done it before. My son was to be delivered by an intern (his `first’ baby), but I had to have a cesearian, so the -resident surgeon- and -resident anesthesiologist- got to do it instead. When I had to have the lumbar puncture done (for the epidural, I was awake for the section and got to watch [squicked the -surgeon-]), my intern asked me if he could have a try, under supervision of the anesthesia resident, as he’d never got to do one before. And he did,three times, before I said that he’d used up my good will (I was in labour, and not entirely my normal cordial self.) My point is that I knew what these people were doing (trying to be good doctors) and I trusted them to do their best. Remember, they are generally pretty competent and knowledgable in theory before they are turned loose on the general public. In a family practice setting, they are also very heavily supervised. I’m finally on the lookout for a permanent physician, because I’m tired of breaking in a new doc every two years, then they graduate and go to Dawson City or wherever rather than setting up in the city. Every time I’m in the hospital, I wonder whether I should refer to myself as a "student doctor" or a "medical student." "Student doctor", in my mind, implies a higher skill level than I have, so I prefer "medical student."
`Student Doctor’ sounds a bit silly to me, to be honest. I think that it’s very imprtant to identify oneself. Some people really can’t handle dealing with students, and they should be given the perogitive of refusing. ObBodyArt:My doc has a -very- interesting piercing, I doubt that she’d be squicked by anything she’d see in a gyn exam!
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(med student giving pelvic exams to women UNDER GENERAL ANEASTHESIA) *UNNECESSARY* pelvic exam WITHOUT MY CONSENT I would SUE their fucking I am so freaked by this too. I’ve never heard this before. Is this really true? I mean, how could they get away with that? God….
^^^ No, they are just doctors. Get over the fact that they are one and the same OK. Time to take a break from studying for med school. It’s the weekend, so I can’t call and ask about my school’s policy. And, I’m only a third of the way through second year, so I haven’t done pelvic exams yet. BUT, I just plain don’t think that pelvics w/o consent happen. The outcry among medical student, men and women, would end any such practice, if the medical school was stupid enough to try it.
Well, I think the medical profession has come a long way since even just a decade ago. I know the Professional Patients program at the University of Hawaii is one of only a handful (less than 10) in the country–at least it was when *I* was in the program. To put this in perspective, six patients recently came to the med school, the 100 of us broke into groups, and we learned how to do abdominal exams. Many of us though that 15-17 students per patient was too much, especially with three hospitals full of patients right next door.
Ohmigod–even as professional patients, a ratio of 1:15 is too much! Our ratio was 1:1 or on busy rotations, 1:2. The personal interaction during the procedure is essential in helping teach a med student. That’s the whole point of doing an exam and not just watching a video or using a dummy. At some point, later this year, I will do my first pelvic exam. From what I’ve heard, it will either be on a volunteer, someone paid for the experience, or a consenting patient who knows that a medical student will be doing the pelvic exam, assisted and guided by a doctor.
Talk to your director about a professional patient program. It’s one thing to have a consenting patient–it’s another to use a professional female patient who has herself performed pelvic exams, so knows how to perform them, AND can tell the student how each procedure is being done (correctly or incorrectly) as a guide. If you are using the speculum incorrection, for example, a professional patient can TELL you that, and help you work it correctly to where it feels comfortable. "When you have your own practice, please have a warming lamp for your specula, socks on the stirrups and posters on the ceiling, and please TELL me before you do anything." Your professor will probably not remember to tell you small (but important) things like that. doctor because of it. Every time I’m in the hospital, I wonder whether I should refer to myself as a "student doctor" or a "medical student." "Student doctor", in my mind, implies a higher skill level than I have, so I prefer "medical student."
"Medical student" is the terminology we have always used. We don’t call our interns "student librarian." Finally, and unfortunately, the medical community has been less than sensitive to the female body in the past. And, unfortunately, some of that continues now.
Yeah–how about GYNs that come in, never even make eye contact with the patient, not say anything, rattle scary-sounding metal instruments behind the sheet, insert blunt cold instruments into a woman without warning, and grab and squeeze sensitive breast tissue? It happens more often than we’d like. Now imagine walking into a situation like that with pierced nipples or labia? I hate that so many people are distrustful of the medical community.
At least the profession is not nearly as distrusted as the lawyers. I think a lot of the distrust comes from old-fashioned paternalistic types who thought they "knew their patients the best," regardless. People are usually scared enough by the time they walk through the door–it doesn’t help that the prevailing philosophy among the masses is that doctors are all-knowing. — UH School of Library & Info Studies. "Whatever the cost of our o|<0_0——* libraries, the price is cheap compared to that of an ignorant =^-| |_| | nation." -Walter Cronkite [R.a.b.bit--FAQ Maintainer: "Think Ink!"] _B}_B}
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Key word is "unneccessary." In cases of emergency apendectomy, it _is_ neccessary to check for things like ovarian cysts and ectopic pregnancy. There are an awful lot of procedures done under general anesthesia where a pelvic exam is _not_ neccessary. That’s what is bothering people.
But who says that they are being done? Y’all just went ballistic over these procedures that you have no reason to think are being done at all, never mind without the patient’s consent. Jeez, don’t get your, uh, …panties in a wad. (sorry, it just slipped out.) — Ray Shea | SES, Inc. Austin TX || "Computers kinda suck."
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OK. Sorry. I’ve calmed down now. what my initial reaction was about was doctors practicing pelvics on unconcious women without their consent. I am fully aware in many cases it is necessary for exams to be performed whether or not the woman is conscious. My (paranoid?) vision was of medical students practicing on unconscious women for the sake of practice, not necessity. I certainly hope that this does not happen. In retrospect, I think I may have overreacted to and misinterpreted Lani’s post. Well, as Lani said, "we all have our days." Mine was Saturday.
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